Prayer Transforms Us

would you call it a prayer if someone asks god for the destruction of the enemy?

PETER M, if failure of prayer to deliver the goods stopped people from praying then only traces of praying would be found in the most ancient of documents. Fact is that God gets the credit when things go right, it's because people prayed and something else is blamed when things go wrong. In the Lady Lake totnado case it't the weather that takes the blame, an act of God no less yet God is not blamed or prayer seen as failing.

Could the trouble be? http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul makes the case that they are praying to Devil and not God? Lady Lake looks more like the work of Devil to me. When we take off the rose colored glasses and give the word of God, the Bible a good close look, up pops Devil. Devil doesn't have the power to stop an "act of God" and prayer to Devil is not likely to change God's mind either.

From an AP story today:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/nation/4524594.html

Worshippers gather at demolished Florida church
By KELLI KENNEDY

LADY LAKE, Fla. — Tornado victims and their supporters turned out for today's service at a church that was demolished in the killer storms that waylaid central Florida, trying to stay optimistic about the long recovery ahead.

The cleanup that began not long after Friday's destruction took a brief pause as the faithful and others gathered under bright sun and clear skies at what was the Lady Lake Church of God. Its splintered remains have become a rallying point in this rural area hit hard by the three tornadoes that killed 20 people and destroyed hundreds of homes.

A gospel choir sang and clapped on a makeshift stage where the church's broken cross was propped up next to an American flag.******

Did the Lord not think much of the prayers that were going on in this church? Maybe he/she hates prayer and zaps a church every now and then to remind humans of this. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Maybe someone will get the great idea, rather than rebuilding as a church, to build as, say, a hospice.

PRAYER IS OFTEN A PLEA FOR HELP AS WELL AS MANY OFFERINGS OF THANKS TO GOD. IN THE CHRISTIAN BELIEF SYSTEM SINCERE PRAYER IS BASED ON FAITH. FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THOSE THINGS HOPED FOR. THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.

I forgot to put my name on my comments about killing our planet.

Prayer and our relationship with God needs looking at to see if our prayers stop actions, waiting for God to do what we need to do.

Our planet is covered with pollution that is breaking our Ozone layer. We have waste dumps on land and sea, oil spills on land and sea, and nuclear waste on land and sea. Have prayer done any good on changing Man to take Care of God's creation?

We have enough nuclear bombs on land and sea to blow up planet Earth. Is this what God meant when he made Man the Caretaker of Earth for all life?

It is time to stop all the killing, and start seeing that all people have a place to live, food to eat, and clothes to wear, before God and Jesus return to Earth to see how we have taken Care of their Creation, with all our prayers. Our actions were not a result of prayer.

Peace.

Kevin wrote:

"Has an instrument been developed that can observe and measure this phenomenon called "grace"? Is "grace" transmitted through "grace waves" that can be recorded? Can "grace" be recorded in the brain through CAT scans or MRIs? Can "grace" and its effects be measured by sociologists?"

To get somewhat of an answer, wait until after you retire and randomly get up and go to the bathroom and then the phone rings. For the first 10 or 15 times you might not notice but after 30 or 40 times you start to think that there might be some other kind of communications mechanism out there that we don't now know about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God helps those who help themselves and life is not a desparate waiting for something to happen. If you need something to change, get up off your ass and change it. If you pray for the Colts and I pray for the Bears, what's a God to do? Positive thoughts and actions are much more effective than waiting for a comic errand boy in the sky to deliver what you want in addition to what you need. Oh, Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benze and Jesus please protect us from your followers. Amen

Yes, it is intellectual arrogance to claim that because you cannot imagine how something works, it cannot exist. But that rule only applies when the phenomenon in question manifestly does exist, and you have proof that it does. It is even more arrogant to claim that something exists even though you have no evidence for it and your assertion cannot be tested or falsified. People who claim that God exists should stick to arguments based on their own feelings and personal faith, rather than trying to appeal to logic or evidence.

Warren,

The only explanation for your comment is that you're not thinking clearly about the rest of the world. China is a pretty selective example and, in any case, is predicted to be the next superpower. Certainly it's easy to substitute devout Muslim countries in your definition--they too are united by a belief in a diety (in fact, the same one), they too use prayer as a form of talking and gaining that relationship. It allows them to ask for help, say "thank you, Allah" and pose questions, just like you. As for your belief that "prayer is the one weapon terrorism or whatever evil comes at us cannot fight or counter," I'm sure devout Muslims rely on the same useless notions.

Anonymous and Warren

Don't forget that the US is billions and billions of dollars in debts to China and Japan as well for all the money sloshing around for weapons and consumer spending.

Pray hard that China and Japan don't come collecting the debt too soon. The US is the country with the biggest debt in the world.

And I do feel sorry for Americans having to pay city tax, county tax, state tax and federal tax. The last to fund all those defence spending among others.

God bless America indeed, for bringing peace and prosperity to the world.

warren - don't forget, the US also has nuclear weapons, a big military and lots of money.

You ever stop to think why the United States is a Super Power? Its not because of people (surely then China would be in every sense) its not technological because Japan can rate on that level and its not just the military. IT YOUR BELIEF IN GOD! That unifies America, prayer is a form of talking to God and gaining a relationship with him. It allows us to ask for help, say "thank you" and pose questions that might be troubling. Without God the US is nothing with Him they are the greatest Nation on earth. Prayer is the one weapon terrorism or whatever evil comes at us cannot fight or counter. With it we are under Gods blessing. So say with boldness "God Bless America" an amen.

JONATHAN - you base your assumption on a couple of IFs. Have you considered the other side of that assumption?

Everyone prays to something. There are those who kneel in front of the mirror and pray for divine guidance. Then the stand up and answer their own prayers. Jesus was one of them for a while.

If we are all one - if the life we live is all the one life, on which we each have a unique perspective - then prayer addresses that which is the deepest part of all of us, that which we all have in common, that from which we all arise, and that to which we will all return.

Dr. Borg --

You changed my life. Or rather, you were a significant part of a process that changed my life. I went to an Episcopal church on a whim one Christmas eve, and I left with the inkling that Christianity was worth checking out. The priest later gave me two books, one of which was "Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time." I spent the next month talking about it with my college roommate. And a year later I was baptized.

The way I describe it to people now is that your book gave me the permission I needed as an intellectual kid from a liberal town to embrace Jesus as the Christ. Thank you for everything.

Miggs

AA, I see why your're AA. You mean you didn't vote for Dubya? Twice? From Texas, it's a habit?

(as a side note to this...interesting...conversation, it is hilarious to see all of these Xtians hating on Bush. Seems to me like they voted him in twice, no that he has us bogged down in some bizarre "Jihad against Terror", their Christ in Shining Armor isn't so shiny anymore. But, of course, noone on this message board voted for Bush, right? Leave it to the religious right to vote in a Yale grad with a C average)

B'GONE says: Ann O, you said: "Your're quite a remarkable being." Have you been talking to my doctor? That's exactly what he said.

ANN O. replies: See? Now I have scientific coroboration :-)

Ann O.

Dr. Borg,

An elderly woman once told me that if large numbers of people all want the same thing at the same time, it's power. She believed prayer could make changes at a distance.

I think that people sometimes move as a group, like herd animals. Any ideas? Animal instinct? Spiritual connection?

By the way, I'm reading your book "Reading the Bible Again For The First Time" in a class right now and enjoying it.

Bob, in a word, You! God manefest himself to those who test him not. You are God's experiment, not the other way around. What in the hell has gotten into you Brother? God, Allah, Zeus, Creator....whatever...FAITH. Have it and you will know. Demand proof, and you will not receive it. I know, I know...that is not the Scientific Method...again, it is all God's experiment. Watch and learn. Does that make sense? Probably not. Do not take my word for it, take God's.

Good Day Professor Borg.
Prayer. Prayer is a communication continum. Through thought, word, and deed we reveal, heal, and tend our soul's desires. Alone or with others. Prayer helps remove the destractions and interference so that you have a purer line of communication between your soul and God or God's agents...who can hear your prayers...depending upon their purpose. However you envision the Creator, (or Creative Force if you prefer) prayer puts you in touch with God and God's manefestation here on Earth, namely you. Prayer is so many things it is almost like defining devine language. Very much so. God helps those who help themselves. That much is very true, and you can help yourself tremendously by living the Word and by living through Prayer. But that does not end, nor begin God's involvement in your life. We might as well get into existentialism in the devine realm as well as here on Earthly manefestations of the devine. I went to the supermarket today and I saw the Globe Tabloid. I have seen those things all of my life, and chuckled at some of the outrageous headlines, but today I bought one. Today the Headline read Bush & Laura Trial Separation. That is something I would not wish on my worst enemy, and over the Iraq War, George W. Bush comes close to that definition to me. Perhaps the President and the First Lady are praying because I felt compelled to buy an issue for the first time in my life. I hope and *pray* that President Bush will get some sense really fast before he loses the one Blessed possession he still has going for him. The love of his beautiful...and highly stressed...First Lady Laura. She has the strength to do what she feels she must, of that I have little doubt. If her husband has half of a half a brain, he will do everything in his power...while he still has it...to win her back. I would want NOTHING to do with a break up a 29 year marriage. All of the really hard work should be over! They should at least go for the Gold if there is any heart left between them. But that is just me talking. I certainly have seen the First Lady looking much happier than this. May you two find Gods Truth, Love, Peace, and Understanding. What God has joined together, let no one put asunder. I do want to apologize to the First Lady for any stress I may have added to her life recently amen. George, you better go after that Foxy First Lady you big dummy you! God Bless you too Professor Borg. Always good to read your thoughts.

Ann O, you said: "Your're quite a remarkable being." Have you been talking to my doctor? That's exactly what he said.

B'GONE: Ann, If I dare look at what? If you mean me then don't worry about that. I have looked me over and over again, ugg.

ANN: Aw, B'GONE, don't be so hard on yourself.

The stuff I say to look at includes, for, instance, making a choice. Decide whether or not you're going to wiggle your toe in the next 3 seconds. That decision (whether affirmative or negative) is not a spatial reality -- neither length nor breadth nor width. But it is real -- you can tell me Yes or No whether you did wiggle a toe. It happened, it was real, but it was not colored. It was not a sound, nor a flavor, nor a feeling, nor a kinesthetic sensation, nor anything that any of your senses tells you about. You simply cannot describe it in material terms, because it was non-material, non-three dimensional, not colored, etc.

The same is true of our experience of the mental act of negation in negative judgements. Take, for instance, "2 plus 2 is NOT equal to 3". That negation is a non-empirical fact. (Ask any philosopher of mathematics.) You don't find "nots" out there in the extramental world -- only pairs and triplets.

And you won't find the logical concept "if" out there all by itself in the material world.

The old philosophers used to call these non-material events "spiritual" ones, that is non-material one. It used not to mean "religious", although many religious events are indeed spiritual ones. Unfortunately the word "spiritual" is now a highly ambiguous one and has led to a lot of misunderstandings.

So, my adice to you is: be easier on yourself and look around inside yourself. You're quite a remarkable being.

Ann O.

Ann, If I dare look at what? If you mean me then don't worry about that. I have looked me over and over again, ugg.

May I suggest you look for cracks in that "non sensual" reality. Things like Gods sneak in through the cracks and stroke your sensuals, make you feel good and make you feel bad when that's what you want. Those cracks leave lots of room for us to get what we want and claim it's the right thing to do.

When enough people do the right thing that is actually the wrong thing then some suffer while others reap the Devil's bounty. Not only can God get in through the cracks but without Devil God, religion's version of God only is unnecessary. Let one in then let both in. Devil is the one that make people do that and God takes the blame for what people do. That's assuming there is reality of course.

"there is choice, highly abstract concepts and judgments -- and grace."

Choice can be observed. I went out to eat last week, and my girlfriend chose to order pasta.

Highly abstract concepts can be observed (for example, an Dissenting Opinion on a Supreme Court case).

Judgements can be observed (for example, a Supreme Court ruling).

Even prayers and religious rituals can be observed.

So all these things can be observed, but not "grace". That involves a response to prayer, which, if it were a valid, true phenomenon (in other words not just a coincidence), could and most definitely would be observed.

In other words, if "grace" were real, it would be science.

B'GONE says to Ann: you're going to make a spectacular skeptic just as soon as you realize there is no "right thing" to do.

Hi again, B'GONE,

As you might have guessed, I'm very much inclined to skepticism. Or more accurately, I'm extremely inclined to value critical thinking and consistency. I spent one whole solid year of my life analyzing Hume's _Treatise_. We share much in common. However, he's quite wrong about some things -- he thought that there wasn't anything present in consciousness except the data of the senses. Big mistake -- it led him to reject even the reality of himself and the possibility of mental judgements about good and evil. Sad. There is more more that is present to us besides sensibilia -- there is choice, highly abstract concepts and judgments -- and grace.

If you dare to look, just don't expect everything to be some sort of spatial reality

Ann O.

Ann O - you're going to make a spectacular skeptic just as soon as you realize there is no "right thing" to do. Otherwise I would argue that when you "think" your're doing the right thing you're actually doing the wrong thing. In other words, stop thinking for you might not be. You must avoid letting things that might not exist run your life including yourself.

Good luck with your studies. Philosophy is fun unless you take it seriously and think.

Ann O. states: "So leading a rational life about which I try to tell the truth, leads me to the conclusions that there is a world, I have a brain, and that there is a loving God who provides help to me when I need it to do what is right and good."

Conclusion 1: There is a world.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree on this one. There is a physical, observable world that we can measure. For example, the world can be observed through satellite imagery.

Conclusion 2: I have a brain.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree on this one too. You have a physical, material brain that can be measured. For example, your brain can be observed using a CAT scan or an MRI machine.

Conclusion 3: there is a loving God who provides help to me when I need it to do what is right and good. [In other (my) words, there is "grace"]

I'm not so willing to go along with you on this one (though I certainly want you to want to do what is right and good...I do too!).

Has an instrument been developed that can observe and measure this phenomenon called "grace"? Is "grace" transmitted through "grace waves" that can be recorded? Can "grace" be recorded in the brain through CAT scans or MRIs? Can "grace" and its effects be measured by sociologists?

Is there any scientific definition of "grace" at all?

Until these questions can be answered in the affirmative, when you talk about the existence of "grace" you are not talking about the truth.

PV tells us: be honest with yourselves

Hi, PV,

I agree with you that we must be ruthlessly honest with ourselves about religious matters. If God is Truth (as I believe Him/Her to be), then it would not please Him/Her if I went around lying about religion - - including lying to myself about it. So right there I have an over-riding motive not to lie about religious matters, even if it requires that I judge there is no God. I realized this when I was an adolescent and went through all the radical questioning that kids naturally do at that age.

I must tell you that still, when I see an innocent being suffering, I often think "A loving God is impossible, He is simply impossible". But, on the other hand, other experiences lead me to think that I'm very wrong about that judgment too.

I also know that I am inclined to fool myself sometimes, especially when life gets extremely difficult. So can I *ever* be absolutely sure that I"m not lying to myself about religious matters? No, I can't be absolutely sure. On the other hand, I can be very sure. Just as I believe that God exists without absolute proof for a loving, personal God, I also believe that I can never be absolutely sure that I'm not fooling myself about religious matters like prayer.

On the other hand, as a student of philosophy I also know that I can't be absolutely sure that the *world* including *my own brain* exists. But I also think that *believing* that it real is the most rational assumption. Even Hume, the great skeptic, *believed* that there is a world.

What convinces me that there is a loving God is the reality of His grace. Grace is the spiritual energy to do what is right or kind when we need help to do so. I would also be lying if I said I am not conscious of any grace within me when I need it . When I find myself in difficult circumstances or when I simply need help to help someone else, that grace is there, present to me and I know it. It's just as real as the patch of pink which I see at the edge of my field of vision at this very moment and which I call "a camellia". Even when I *don't want* such spiritual energy to be there, even when it makes my life *even more difficult* short term (I mean when I want to run away from my responsibilities and not meet them), the grace of God is there to help me. It is there and *my own resistance to it* tells me that it is not my own invention.

I must also admit that I often reject those graces when they require me to do something hard, and sometimes, I just reject them because I'm selfish. Mea culpa.

So leading a rational life about which I try to tell the truth, leads me to the conclusions that there is a world, I have a brain, and that there is a loving God who provides help to me when I need it to do what is right and good.

Prayer is also one of those helps. Among other things, it helps me to *accept* the graces God offers me, even when I want to tell God "Keep your blasted grace, I don't want it!!!"

I would be lying to myself and you if I said otherwise.

Ann O.

AA - the question that remains to be answered is: can Dr Borg find the courage to expell the Devil from his mind. Dr Borg is the generic case of those with the same ailment addressed by AA. Millions of Americans are addicted to prayer. Is Bubba? Bubba decides all in the end.

Is Bubba listening or is he a reed being dragged along by the swift current? Dr Borgs have a responsibility to inform Bubba. Will they? Only the Dr Borgs can answer that question. The truth is going to hurt real bad because Bubba has been feeding them. Bubba is the God from whom they get their daily bread.

Alcoholics Anonymous Prayer --

God grant me the Serenity to
accept the Things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the Things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/miracle-study.html

be honest with yourselves

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088

if it's going to make you feel better about yourself to pray, go for it...

but let's not pretend anymore.

With all the religions of the world saying that they are the only real religion, how does one truely know what to believe? Is it just what religion your parents were or is the inherent spirituality only in ones self?

Pray is the only thing that changes anything. Nothing changes in a man's heart unless he prays and nothing changes in this world unless someone is praying. God does intercede and quickly when a pray is consistent with His will and backed with faith. Father may your will be done. Jesus said ask anything in my name and if you have faith you can move mountains. Are we to say He was a liar? The key is to understanding this is that asking in His name means asking consistent with God's will in our lives. Through prayer I have personally seen mountains move and even a few miracles. I don't always get a yes but mostly a no. That seems to be consistent with my own behavior in regard to the requests made by my children. Most of the time what they want is either not good for them or a burden on the family. So the answer my children get is no more often than yes. The wonderful thing about children is that when they get a no it seems never to discourage them as within the next few minutes they are at it again. Jesus also instructed us to become like children and this is a good attitude when praying. Never give up but also search for God's will.

You pray all the time professor? Not all the time but several times a day? Do you know why?

When you were born a "bridge" was installed in your "preset memory" the side of your brain that operates your reflexes. That bridge has been named the "nebol bridge." It's purpose is to allow you to cope with death.

God understands that you have death all about you. Every time you bury someone you mentally bury yourself. "Ashes to ashes and dust to dust" and I won't be left out. The nebol bridge allows you to reasure yoursel that those you bury are not really dead but alive and well in a new world.

Religion throws up a raoadblock between this world and that next world where the person just buried "may" have gone. There is a monster, demon, devil between here and there put there by dogma. The nebol bridge is a natural normal part of your brain. The demon on that bridge blocking it is imaginary just like the bridge itself. Someone has upgraded your imagination, probably while you were a child.

A Christ is a MANGOD with the power to overcome the Devil and get your loved one now and in turn yourself past that demon and on to your next life. Those without a Christ will get the boot off the bridge and down to hell. Hell?

Where did hell come from? Of course, there must be a place for those that do not get past the demon on the nebol bridge. Anyone without a Christ will NOT be getting past the demon either.

It's taken me a few words to get here but now we can answer the question: why do you pray? Prayer temporarily relieves your fear of the demon on the nebol bridge. You pray and it goes away. But a short time later it returns so you pray some more. Prayer has become habitual for you and those who have a demon on their nebol bridges.

There are other ways to temporarily relieve the fear caused by the demon on your nebol bridge. Drugs and alcohol do identically the same thing as prayer. Prayer is cheap and does not cause a hangover or get one arrested and thrown into jail.

At least you now know what has happened to you. But when did it happen to you? Did you go to "Jesus Boot Camp?"

There's a much better explaination of the nebol bridge and the monster demon that now threatens to destroy the world at http://www.hoax-buster.org It's scattered about but well worth the effort to find and understand. Knowledge removes the need for prayer, drugs and alcohol and may help save the world from the only sure way to defeat the Devil. Ventilate the heads of those with the demon on their nebol bridges and let it out.

In the deeper sense what is prayer?

Some would say its:
A calling to a larger force, for aid...

In deeper sense when does prayer get answer: upon acceptance...

I would state the point of acceptance thats greatest is
upon acceptance of our own personal power and situations.

How is prayer any different than a mantra? A speaking out loud, a sounding out... till we give in to the larger reality of our own nature
(again to some would say god, to others would say nature, to others...) really it boils down to a personal acceptance of living.

SO I agree with you its great to pray as a mantra , as a practice, as a way to work... towards our own acceptance of the world. And then more importantly of ourself.

So I pray every day, every three seconds, and it's upon my breath, my breath is the prayer of life itself, and in that are we not all equal... no matter what god or not we breath out towards?

Peace and acceptance in your prayers
http://www.personaltao.com/

Goofy stuff. . . Here goes the Zeus experiment .. . Let's substitute the unverifiable concept of "Zeus" for the equally unverifiable concept of "God" and see what happens.

Marcus says:

"So I don’t believe that Zeus sometimes intervenes to answer prayer. But this doesn’t prevent me from thinking that prayer sometimes has effects, even though I can’t imagine how. I am very willing to think of other ways of imagining Zeus’s relation to the world, such as speaking of divine intention and divine interaction. At the very least, I am convinced that prayer changes us – that it transforms those who pray. This has been my experience."

My question is, transforms them into what?

Thank you.

Professor Borg,

Some of us who do not believe in God engage in the same behavior -- although certainly not as intensely or as frequently as you describe. In my case it is rare, and when I catch myself doing it I laugh at my own absurdity. I think it is hard wired into our brains and it (usually) does not harm at all and may have a beneficial physiological effect. But like many other stimuli, it is bad if it becomes an obsession.