Don't Tell Them Anything They'll Need to Unlearn

To Frances –

Your example of misleading a child is much different than my response to Dr. Borg’s example.

Your mother was calming a disturbed child (and I suspect you no longer believe in the sandman).

Dr. Borg was answering a curious child – saying a story was “truthful.” Every child is taught the difference between truth and make believe. Unlike belief in the sandman, being truthful is not something we are expected to grow out of.

Unfortunately, many adults are never told that the Bible stories they learned as children are myths. Even clergy, who themselves learn this in seminary, fail to pass on the information. I know an atheist who thought there were Roman records of Jesus hanging on the cross between two thieves. While she doesn’t accept the miracle aspects of the life of Jesus, she assumed the “facts” were true – probably because she’d never heard the story many times without it being questioned. There are no such records -- Dr. Borg could tell her that.

Also, regarding your comment that Atheism is a religion. It isn’t -- There is no dogma or set of beliefs associated with it. It is simply the lack of something --like being asymptomatic.

You say you’re a struggling Christian. I hope that in your struggles you find guidance that speaks clearly to your mind as well as to your heart and soul.

Frances, I admire the sentiments in your post, especially the last paragraph. I can't speak for anyone else, but whenever I hear someone use the word "God" I am very tempted to assume that the person is speaking about the Supreme Being from the Abrahamic religions.

In my view, that sense that you mentioned is the very essence of faith. I strongly suspect that different people sense that something bigger in different ways. That might explain why there are so many religions.

I suppose that a common name such as "God" makes it easier to have a meaningful conversation about that sense. I just don't like the idea that one person's sense of something bigger is less valid than another's, or that everyone should sense it the same way.

After reading through all of this, I figured I'd put my two cents in. For anyone reading this, you will see that I jump from one line of thought to another, addressing those postings that stood out for me.

First as to the worry of misleading children: One night, when I was about 4 or 5 years old, I had problems going to sleep. Then, out of the blue I looked down at myself, and saw standing on my chest, a little man with two little bags in his hands. I jumped up from my bed and ran to tell my mother what I saw because, I was afraid.

I told her the story, and my mother said very calmly, "That's the Sandman come to help you go to sleep, he won't hurt you. Go back to bed." And that was that. I went back to my room and fell asleep, I guess. And yes, I did come to realize that I must have woken from a dream, but I can't say that for a "fact" because I don't remember falling asleep.

Why I remember this is because my mother refused to "debunk" even fairy tales. She would say it wasn't up to her to make definitive statements upon the creation of God. I have been grateful to her wisdom my whole life. Who knows what is "real" and what isn't? And why do we get so upset about others' belief or non-belief?

I am a struggling Christian, and there are times when I do feel like a fraud. But I would rather struggle with this, than not. For me, it makes my life richer.

How is it that animals, sentient and non-sentient, have this sense of group cohesiveness? Because there would be no life without it. All creatures would eventually destroy themselves without it. OK, why do we care? If this life is all that there is, why do we care what comes after us? Well, I think religion tries to speak to the "why" of things as opposed to the "how" or the fact of them.

Those of us who are sentient have a sense that there is something "bigger" than just our individual finite existences. Some of us call that sense, God. Some of us tap into this sense of God through our religions: Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Pantheism, Atheism (because it takes just as much faith to disclaim as it does to proclaim). Faith is not about proof. There is no "proof" that God exists, and there is none that God doesn't. Me, I'm hoping that God indeed "Is".

Mark Eaton,

Sounds like you minimize the value of humans. We can be good without a false God.

Don't remember who posted this:
"My point is, we must teach our children to believe in something/someone greater than ourselves."

Why?!

"If there is anyone who honestly believes that there is not a Higher power watching over our lives, whether you call him God or Buddha or Allah, then you are living a very empty life."

I don't, and I have a very fulfilling life.

MARK EATON:
"Ever wonder why most of the nations of the world have the same basic laws like "Do not murder", "Do not steal", etc.? Did you know that even the most uncivilized people of the Amazon rain forests had these same laws? Well, its not by chance or by western conquest either. God put these laws in us. His Laws. Our internal conscience guides us by these, even though we may choose to ignore it."

No god didn't.
Regarding the Amazon People...I don't think they believe in your god, or the bible. They also seem to be doing fine without it.

I don't believe in god, and I don't go around killing people.

Children,

The ancients had many tales, myths, superstitions, and embellished stories, many that exemplify what it means to be a good person. This was the ancients' way of looking at things around them. From this grew Greek mythology and many stories of the Bible and the Koran. Today based on our current knowledge disciplines of Philosophy, History, Archeology, Geography, Anthropology, Genetics, Medicine, Astronomy, Biochemistry and Microbiology, we can now separate fact from fiction of the ancient world but the good observed by the ancients remains today and forever will be.

Mark Eaton,

If Jesus was proved to be fake; would you go out and kill and rape?

I am sure the answer is no, and it is not because of the holy book, it is because of a simple concept. “The Social Contract.”

This contract has and will changes based on environment and necessity. All social animals are born with it. “I will help you if you help me” and “I will not hurt you if you do not hurt me”

For the people that do not follow this, we look in to there psyche and find the root problem.

This concept has allowed humans to build an awesome base of morals that are continuing to change. Just 150 years ago, we were fighting a Civil War, as a nation we have changed for the most part to understand slavery is wrong. Why give credit to God, we humans have made the morals.

The biggest problem we now is the monotheistic view that causes unnecessary war and killing. These views are supported by the moderates, who hold on to faith and won’t question the reasoning behind it. “With or without religion, we would have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad thing. But to have good people doing bad things, that takes religion”

Paths and Questions

From the Arch Bishop to Starhawk and Mrs Jacoby and all the posted comments all ring true with similiar tones. Choices; to love, accept or believe is what it boils down too. I think ,as with most everything in life, that there is a little truth to all.
If God is "Love" then God is Wiccan or Islam or Jewish, Christianity or even the non-believer because they all love. Consiquently if the answer is that simple its the question that must be all together confusing.
Find your place in the world. Love God, whatever you call him; he knows who your talking too (and love you back)
What's the worst that will happen? Either your dead and the joke is on you, or....

Peace to all, unconditionally

Dear SCOTT:

We care if God and Jesus exists, because He put the desire in us. In fact, He put the desire in all of us. He made himself known to all of us by our own internal conscience and by the created things around us, trees, animals, the earth, stars, etc. Read Romans chapter one and you will see.

Ever wonder why most of the nations of the world have the same basic laws like "Do not murder", "Do not steal", etc.? Did you know that even the most uncivilized people of the Amazon rain forests had these same laws? Well, its not by chance or by western conquest either. God put these laws in us. His Laws. Our internal conscience guides us by these, even though we may choose to ignore it. But what about the suicide bombers on 9/11 you ask? Did not they commit murder? Let me ask you a question in response. What would have happened to the 9/11 terrorists if they had murdered a friend? Or a relative? They would have been punished. You see, we can delude ourselves into believing killing is permissable if it is a part of war. These people believe they are in a war, a jihad. They see that it is permissable to murder us, because we are their enemy.

So, you see we cannot really live isolated lives and not seek God. We are only deluding ourselves. Did anyone of us create the brain that we use to think? Did anyone of us create the fingers we are keying with? All of these questions point out that we are not in control. Someone else is. Seek Him out. Find out who He is. Prove that He is a fake, if you can. You might just find out that He is as real as you and I and that He wants you to get to know Him.

I'm still waiting for some intelligent honest answers from the "believers".

sorry 'bout the typo's

*plagues

*fiery

It's strange, I just woke up one day not believing anymore, but was so afraid to say I didn't believe anymore because of my family and the ridicule I was sure to receive once it was known. But, no more. This whole religion thing is riduculous. The violence, sexism, tales of splitting tongues and plaques that kill babies (first born) is just too much for me. Demons that stalk you and take over your body; firey pits of hell and gold lined streets. ummm.. Why would God's heaven have streets lined with gold? You are no longer a physical being after death according to the faith so why would you need gold lined streets? And for that matter isn't that vain and materialistic? Once more how can I be in a firey pit of hell that burns when I am no longer made of flesh? Does my spirit experience pain too? C'mon people! Religion sets people up for failure. In the eyes of the scripture we are not perfect and never will be. So to try to live up to standards that ALL of us are unable to remain true to is just self-destruvtive. Kill somebody on Saturday, ask for forgiveness on Sunday, go to work all forgivcn on Monday with a clean slate. Yeah right!

Robert,

I agree. The whole idea of most of what Christianity (not Christians) has to offer is vile and mean-spirited.

A religion that said we are all perfect and should live happy as we please (without directly harming others) would be welcome.

Merry Saturnalia--the "original" christmas--to all!

Praise be to Mirtha--the "original" jesus (by 1,000 years)! He was born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians. He raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun). Any of that sound familiar?

Don't be afraid. Critical thinking and the willingness to admit you may have been given false/misleading information your entire life are hard to deal with. Remember, truths and what's real in our world don't need to be forced on you--they are self evident to all.

Peace

Robert - The good news is that while God may have created us as frail, sinful mortals, he didn't leave us helpless or alone. He has promised to provide us everything that we need and He has promised to never leave us. Jesus is not so easily willing to give us over to the mortal enemy, He is fighting for us with every drop of blood in his body. You don't have to be worthy (good or benevolent), you just have to come to Him.

CWilson said: "maybe you feel like you are being threatened because deep down you truly believe in Heaven & Hell and you are afraid that by not accepting God, you are condemming yourself to eternal damnation. If you don't believe in God, then you probably don't believe in Hell either. If so, then why are you worrying about people who do believe. One day you'll just be able to laugh at them and say, I told you so. But if you have any doubt about the existence in Heaven & Hell, you might want to do some more research. I heard someone once say, better to Believe in God & Heaven and be wrong then NOT to believe and be wrong. If you believe, what's the worst that can happen? You'll have hope, love, faith and soomething to look forward to when the world is spitting in your face."

Mr. Wilson, if there is anything that scares me, it is that an omnipotent being, who created us frail, sinful mortals, would punish us with with an eternity of torture and abuse for choosing the wrong God to believe in (or no God at all) during a finite and cosmologically short lifetime.

If such a being could do this to us, then I do not see how that being can be considered "good" or "benevolent" in any sense of the word.

Sending us to hell, to governed by this omnipotent being's mortal enemy is cruel when one considers that if the omnipotent being doesn't like us, all he has to do is make us not exist.

I think would prefer non-existence over an eternity of torture and abuse.

Mr. Ted - no harsh feelings here either. Healthy debate and kindly expression of opinions is also good. That is how we grow as individuals and while we may not agree, we can respect and have understanding. I also do not like extremists as they seem to accomplish nothing more than anger and bitterness towards whatever they support. While I do believe in God and I am very thankful to have Him in my life, I can respect your views. I will never force my belief in God on anyone (even my children) but I will always talk about Him and what He has to offer. I hope that I can be a fisher of men thru understanding, conversation, and prayer. So that when my time comes, God will say to me, "Well done, good & faithful servant". I do respect your belief but I will be keeping you in my prayers, just in case.

CWILSON I do like the debate here, so no harsh feelings on either side. I don't believe in a God or Hell, but rather that we did evolve. I don't know what is going to happen when I die, or why I'm here to begin with. I take pleasure in my day to day activities and my life so far. I don't condemn the peopole that believe in a God or Gods, I just ask that they don't shove it on me or are condescending towards those who aren't Christians. This will always be up for debate. As for my children, I will let them make their own decisions. I went to parochial schools up until college and I had enough to last me a lifetime. I would discuss it with my children should they ask and I will give my opinion as well. They are free to decide for themselves(free will). Again, this will always be debatable and up for criticism. You will also find extremists who have a perverse view of their own religion and that bothers me.

I still don't know why anyone cares or wants God or Jesus to exist anyway.

Why can't people just live happy lives without focusing on far fetched things?

Mr. Ted - Well, I just take great comfort in knowing that I can show my children, in the Bible, the bases for the laws that we following. It takes away the guess work and I can give them concrete proof why there is a law against things robbery & murder.

Robert - maybe you feel like you are being threatened because deep down you truly believe in Heaven & Hell and you are afraid that by not accepting God, you are condemming yourself to eternal damnation. If you don't believe in God, then you probably don't believe in Hell either. If so, then why are you worrying about people who do believe. One day you'll just be able to laugh at them and say, I told you so. But if you have any doubt about the existence in Heaven & Hell, you might want to do some more research. I heard someone once say, better to Believe in God & Heaven and be wrong then NOT to believe and be wrong. If you believe, what's the worst that can happen? You'll have hope, love, faith and soomething to look forward to when the world is spitting in your face.

CWilson said: "God gave us everything, includig FREE WILL. Which meant that he gave us laws but he also gave us a mind to choose or not choose to follow those laws. First we critize because God can possibly exist and then we're mad because he gave us a will of our own (so we are not robots) and caused up to get into trouble. At what point in our existence do we start to take some responibility for our actions? God is not forcing anyone to do anything but just like everything else in this earthly life, there are consiquences to our choices."

An omnipotent being giving us free-will, and then threatening us with eternal damnation for not using that free will correctly (i.e., not obeying him) is a unique kind of free-will.

Other beliefs and fear of ZEUS or other gods that were believed in at the time, OR that they realized killing was no way to keep a tribe, or vice versa, kill or be killed. Animal instict.

A person is rational, subjective,cohearant and smart. People are irrational, dumb and panicky animals.

Mr. Ted - Where did society get their idea of right & wrong?

CWILSON, how do you know god gave us free will? I think we evolved and it was evolutionary progression of the human brain. Consequences to our choices are based on the morality of society and how society deems things right or wrong. It's more of a popularity contest and a non-existant poll on what people deem moral or immoral. Things change and times change. Religion will evolve or change to something else in time as well. There will be another belief that catches on and people will believe that as well.

Robert - God gave us everything, includig FREE WILL. Which meant that he gave us laws but he also gave us a mind to choose or not choose to follow those laws. First we critize because God can possibly exist and then we're mad because he gave us a will of our own (so we are not robots) and caused up to get into trouble. At what point in our existence do we start to take some responibility for our actions? God is not forcing anyone to do anything but just like everything else in this earthly life, there are consiquences to our choices.

Anonymus - 2000 years was just since Jesus (New Testiment) but God has been here must longer (read the Old Testiment). So far, God has been able to stick around the longest :>

CWILSON I agree with your last comment wholeheartedly.

CWilson,
Humans are scum and worthless and have no point in living if it isn't trying to satisfy someone that they have NEVER seen or spoken to. Right? Geez. Oh and by the way, the Greek religion flourished for about 3,000 years before the Romans took over and incorporated it into their society. But it would take another 400 hundred years for Greek and Roman religion to be declared mythology, and Christanity would take over. Christanity is a mere 2,000 years old. Don't worry, Christanity will be debunked and replaced by another religion. The only true thing about religion is that they rise and fall. History will repeat itself.

Regarding the original question: What to tell your Children. Each parent should tell Children what they believe and guide them to the best of their ability. Children should also be told that there are different opinions and that all people should be respected regardless of who or what they believe. Everyone has the right to believe what they want and everyone should respect one another. That doesn't mean you can't get into a healthy debate over what you believe but any discussion that changes from an exchange of person thoughts to insults & stone throwing is wrong - in all beliefs.

CWILSON I would love to see how long this bit lasts. So far we are on 2000 years. How long did the Greek and Roman mythology last? Oh until something else came along and it was forced upon people. Look, you can believe that there is some entity up there in the big blue sky, but where, in the mesosphere,stratosphere, troposphere or ionosphere?

CWilson said: "If we weren't sinners, we wouldn't be seperated from God and would not need the salvation we received thru Jesus."

And if this omnipotent being hadn't put in a position where we could sin, then we wouldn't be sinners either. But, we were not placed in such an environment. We were placed in an environment where the possibility for sin was left open.

That is the responsibility of the omnipotent being, not the people the omnipotent being created.

JWS - You ask for it because you want it. If you don't want to believe in God, then you don't want what God has to give you. If we weren't sinners, we wouldn't be seperated from God and would not need the salvation we received thru Jesus. Have you never spoke an untruthful word in your life, have you never taken something that didn't belong to you, have you never looked at another person with envy or lust (Example: "Hey that chic is hot"), or taken the Lords name in vain (Example: God Damn). These are all sins that upset God. If you upset a friend, you would probably ask for forgiveness, right?

Mr. Ted - simply - mythology didn't last for 1 reason - it wasn't true but God & Jesus continue to remain because TRUTH will never die.

I don't think anyone is saying the bible is not correct historically or that the people in it did not exist. I'm sure Jesus was a real person who preached(Just like David Koresh).The problem is there is NO evidence to prove a supernatural being exists. No proof of the leap for the physical to the meta-physical(what believers call 'Faith'). Just because you love someone, or your child is born healthy, or your house didn't burn down during a forest fire, does not mean there is a god watching over you. What about all the times when things are bad? Are those effects of a supernatural being too?

Maybe other forms of life on other planets don't have to wear Nitrogen suits to breath Nitrogen either. They must have the other god.

Jim said: "The true fantasy is beleiving you evolved from a rock or a single cell life form.Beleiving this takes a great deal of faith.Have you ever wondered why you can walk outside and breath without having to wear some kind of oxygen suit? You can't do this anywhere else in the universe."

The last time I checked, humanity has not yet visited every planet in the universe to be able to judge whether or not there are other oxygen rich planets. Until we do, you cannot make the assumption that no such places exist.

Lets answer about the civil war. We have pictures and physical evidence. We're arguing two different ideas here. You're arguing your faith as fact rather than physical evidence as fact. If that's the case, prove to me that Adam and Eve existed. Prove to me that Eve came from a rib and prove to me that all the things or at least something from the bible is fact. Don't tell me that Jesus was real, maybe he was the dirt farmer neighbor to the rest of his disciples. Maybe the disciples were his drinking buddies at the tavern. Again, it's a belief, so why can't there be many gods and Achilles was real and there are immortals etc. I don't believe that either, but it's just an arguing point.

Scott - Evidence, either then or today, will never be found in science or theology. That's why it is FAITH. I know Jesus was thinking of me because when I call to Him, He is there. Even before I called to Him, He was working in my life and now that I've seen Him, I see the evidence. I can tell you my story but you have to discover the evidence for yourself. The Bible, your Pastor, your friends, your family can all lead you to the stream but you have to decide for yourself to drink.

JWS,CWilson is correct.You are also correct.Grace is a free gift to those who have Faith in what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus is Lord.

Randy - Science knows that black holes exist, but has anyone ever seen one? Science knows that the universe began, but when and how? Science knows the universe is expanding, but to where and for how much longer? There is a lot that we believe in, that has scientific "proof", but all still remains supposition. One cannot prove there is or is not a God!
Religions are "road maps" for people who need help in moving forward towards whatever goal they would like. They are human creations based on multiple views: thus multiple religions. The position taken by so many of the (for want of a better word) non-believers that belief in God and a pathway for life is ignorant, mindless and unthinking, well that position is ignorant, mindless, unthinking and obnoxious. You are not superior because you do not believe, any more than you are superior because you do believe.

I believe in Balls and The Vag- not in an invisible man that lives in the clouds. Take your religion and stick it up your ass.

And what makes me believe that the Bible stories are true. That's faith. I agree Darwinism that we evolved. I have faith that that is our true creationism. The guy above would scare the hell out of my kids and probably his unless he brainwashed them to this fairy tale. Prove to me that it isn't a fairy tale. I need evidence. That's how I believe.

Based on CWILSON's response, then I believe there were war lords and fairies and wizards and gobblins that lived before too. I can't prove it, but you can't prove anything in the bible either. It's a book that was written. There were probably hundreds of books written before too. The bible or Christianity is the same as roman and greek mythology. Everything was written then too, why didn't that make it and paganism survive? Cause there were creepy and weird people that created these cults so that no other belief would be tolerated.

CWILSON, so I am required to ask for it? Which set of beliefs to I have to prescribe to? That doesn't sound free to me. When I give someone a gift. I don't require them to ask for it first.

A question for Mr. Ted:

How would you prove scientifically that the Civil War actually happened? What kind of evidence would you be looking for, before you would teach your kids about the Civil War?

"What I'm trying to say is leave it open for our children to decide, let's not make that decision for them."

I agree with that in principle, Mr. Ted. But as a parent myself, I still have to respect the wishes of parents who want to teach their children certain beliefs. That's because if I didn't, they wouldn't respect my wishes to teach my children to decide for themselves. Again, I'm talking about the beliefs themselves, as opposed to harm to other people caused by beliefs.

JWS - Grace is a gift and it is free because there is NOTHING you can do to earn it. It is freely available to all who will ask for it.

RASPBERRY said:Adam and Eve and apples and snakes, sounds like fantasy to me.
The true fantasy is beleiving you evolved from a rock or a single cell life form.Beleiving this takes a great deal of faith.Have you ever wondered why you can walk outside and breath without having to wear some kind of oxygen suit? You can't do this anywhere else in the universe.
Give God all the Praise and Glory He Deserves.

Cwilson,

You speak like you know something others don't.

I challenge you to provide a shred of evidence on why 2000 years ago Jesus was thinking about you, your sins, or anything related to reality today.

Note: please provide this evidence without quoting the Bible.

Bravo to the ones who see the tales of the bible as nothing more than what we consider the tales of Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny. One thing I hear that is disappointing is when people resort to believing in supernatural powers simply because the physical can not yet be explained. Alot of people forget that atoms and molecules, germs and bacteria, quasars and pulsars where not yet explainable/discoverable until a few hundered years ago! Imgagine that! So what if we can not explain our origins or the universe's orgins just yet. That does not mean we need to resort to supernaturalism. And for the ones who state that we MUST have been created by a supernatural being because everything is so complex. Again, you do not know what nature is capable of. Your experience with nature on Earth is simply a drop in the bucket compared to what is going on in the universe. Just because humans can not fathom the universe does not mean some other forces(non-supernaturl) is struggling like you.

I do like the counter-post to the person who tried to make gravity and electricty a faith based belief.

Randy - you can feel the affects of electricity & gravity but you can't actually see it. You know it's there because you see the affects. The same is true with God, I know he's there because I can see and feel his affects. It's not thought, it's truth, it's not luck, it's love. The problem is, until you have faith in it, you'll never see it. God is at work in our lives (believers & non-believers) everyday but you miss his daily gifts because you do not believe.

CWILSON, I thought Grace is free. You just put conditions on it.

If you have to think HARD about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, then you don't have faith and you are missing His Grace. The Bible is everything you needed for life then and all you need for life today. Believing that there is a God is the easy part, having FAITH that he will do as he has promised is the tough part. But if he can sacrifice his one and only Son, then having Faith in him is the least that we can do. Open you HEART, stop at your local Motel and re-read his manual for LIFE. The earth is not your entire life, life will go on but will it be on the golden streets of Heaven or the firey pit of Hell. Those are your choices and there is ONLY 1 WAY to get to Heaven but many paths to Hell. You must believe Jesus is God's Son, that you ARE a sinner and that Jesus died for those sins. PERIOD. Because of the Grace of God, we don't have to be perfect, we just have to believe.

Just to prove my point, as stated earlier. This is like the telephone game. At first we started out on what to tell our children, now it has gotten into a discussion of perceived reality versus fiction. What I'm trying to say is leave it open for our children to decide, let's not make that decision for them.

Tonio,

I completely agree people have the right to their own faith.

Some people believe they can fly, but its wrong to teach children they can too.

Or just teach children that faith is what they believe personally, not that its true.

Scott, God is love. Love is relevant.

GTHOR, God is not condescention

Gthor,

People of faith are irrational by nature.

Remember, the great prophet Archie Bunker said:

"Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe"

Reason is not hostility.

Scott, what I'm really defending is the individual's right to his or her own faith. I can disagree with someone else's beliefs, but unless those beliefs cause them to act in ways that harm others, those beliefs are really none of my business. A Christian might insist that you are fooling yourself. Is it right for anyone to have that kind of contempt for people with different beliefs?

Wow. Some the hostility by some of these posts is matched only by their superficial understanding of the Bible and at times total ignorance of it. But that is what I have come to expect from non-Theists and secular progressives. They offer their own faith and state it as "fact". What SP's don't realize is that they are the true fundamentalists. They believe in their "religion" no matter what the evidence to the contrary and then accuse others of what they themselves do.
Note to those who are serious about finding the truth - the Bible can't just be read. It's not a novel and it's too deep and complex for a superficial reading. It has to be studied along with studying the history of the Bible. But too many SP's (who have never even picked up the book) just spew forth the usual accusations and
have nothing to back them up. You can't argue with them because their faith will never allow them to really be open to reason. The irony is that they project their own irrationality on people of faith. I guess it makes them feel better.
Now the replies will prove my point.

I also should add that there really is no reason to believe in Jesus or God anyway.

It has no bearing on real life or reality other than to create controversy about non-existant things for the purpose of trying to control other people.

I agree with Mike Dishnow's response. Very good.

Atheism is every bit as much a "belief" as any other religion. You believe X, I believe Y, they believe Z. You might argue that you can't quantify religion like you can things in science, but can you quantify emotion? Can you quantify an experience?

Ok, so tell me this then...we have a nuclear world war and everything is destroyed. A thousand years later, someone finds Darwins book on evolutionism and a copy of Harry Potter. You tell me that people who find it won't believe that these are true stories and how the world and beings evolved. Do you see my point. I don't believe that Adam and Eve existed. That's nonsense that someone came to be out of a rib. However being able to prove scientifically seems more logical and is what I will teach my children. I want them to be open as possible, but look at reality. Seriously consider what I wrote earlier in the posting. It will make you think of how we came across this "Good Book"

I am a 63 year old raised in a liberal Catholic household. Yes, I said "liberal." My father's greatest gift to me as a child was to allow questioning of religious teachings and dogma and to encourage me to think for myself. He always said he found it encouraging when things were tough to think that "someone up there" was looking out for him. He was a believer -- but told me I would have to reason these issues out for myself.

Through my personal experiences, education, and reading over the years, I have reached the conclusion that there is neither God nor Gods up there. I believe that man has created God in his image, not the other way around.

I have given my children the same gift that my father gave to me, the freedom to examine the evidence and make up their own minds about religious and philosophical questions. None has ever disparaged me for that, nor do they all share my conclusions.

I belief I have given them no greater gift than this. I hope they will continue this family tradition

Dear Dr. Borg,

I think parents and clergy have an ultimate responsibility not to mislead. Certainly children can grasp metaphor. Children also trust adults to help them understand the differences between reality and truth and fiction, lies and “just pretend.”

Even as an adult, if someone I trusted said, “I don’t know if it happened that way or not, but I know this is an important and truthful story,” I’d think that while the person doesn’t have all the details, the story itself is factual. If I noticed something in the person’s tone or manner that suggested obfuscation, I’d ask for clarification, e.g., What’s “important” about the story?” Why say “truthful” instead of “true.” Where can I find out exactly how it happened?

But if I were a child, I’d just accept it, much the way I accepted information about Santa Claus (not true) and information about what happens to children who don’t look both ways before they cross the street (true).

The difference between Bible stories and other metaphors and myths is that, even as adults, people are not told categorically that the Bible stories are not “true” in the simple sense of being factual. Plus, society tacitly or actively supports the truth of the stories. Even highly-educated, liberal clergy who themselves learned about the Bible’s mythical foundation while in seminary, do little or nothing to actively point out the difference between facts and truth and myth and metaphor when discussing Bible stories in their sermons.

You could help, Dr. Borg, by using your considerable verbal skills to encourage parents to tell their children that Bible stories are like Greek and Roman mythology. They are stories, decidedly not true, in the sense of being factual and provable, that can teach important lessons about human nature and human behavior. Urge clergy to do the same: instead of muddling the message, please help clear the fog.

This is a big leap, but it beats being evasive and perpetuating confusion and misinformation. And it’s long overdue.

Tonio,

If anyone feels insulted, its not because of me.

It's because deep down they know they are fooling themselves.

If faith or religion must be defended, that should tell you something is wrong.

Scott, as much as I disagree with the Bible, I think it's rude to insult people who believe in the book.

Wow. Wonderful information from both sides. I have been struggling with the idea of an all powerful deity for many years now. I believe this struggle is consuming more and more of the educated. I always wondered how an almighty can make mistakes (too many to mention). But I believe I have lost the fear of saying this... I just don't believe this anymore. Many people I believe are afraid to say this for fear of an impending eternal doom. But as a previous poster stated "why would God condemn you for eternity for mistakes made in mortal life" 80, 90+ years at the most. Doesn't make any sense. Adam and Eve and apples and snakes, sounds like fantasy to me. Most followers in my immediate circle have never done any real research into their own faiths. They are just followers of a herd passed down from generations before. I am sure truths and discoveries that oppose the basis for religious beliefs may never be known. No doubt they exist. I choose the side of common sense. Not blind faith.

I tell my 2 children the truth: That God is pretend and that the Bible is not necessary. The good lessons of the Bible can (and should) be learned outside of the Bible and religion.

Ok, it is what you want to believe. God is a ficticious thought and sky fairy that you want to believe. I think that God is not necessarily a physical entity, but more of a way of moral life. I don't believe that the Bible is of fairy tale or folk tale decent. Things get twisted and in all actuality most of those stories are 3rd hand written years later. Ever play the telephone game as a child in elementary school? Think of it that way. Wow, I didn't realize how manipulated people can be. To his his own.

Mark Eaton:

I can show you electricity. Let me help you stick your hand in a light socket. I can show you gravity. Let me push you off your pedestal.

Now, show me your faith.

Adults can believe whatever they want. But to teach religion as truth to a child is simply abuse.

Quoting the Bible doesn't prove anything other than you can't think for yourself.

Jesus preached his message primarily in terms of parables. Parables are made-up stories, not factual. However they have "truth" in them. Jesus recognized that literal facts were insufficient to describe "the way", why can't we?

I'm sure no one really believes that Jesus is still around or that God really exists. They were just taught this at an early age and taught not to think for themselves.

Jehova98, I don't know what definition Mr. Borg is using for "truthful." In fact, the definition of "religious truth" is a mystery to me. It is worth noting that Joseph Campbell read religious symbols as philosophical metaphors and not as objective facts.

Stories, as well as fairytales and poetry, are exactly how humankind expresses the deepest mysteries of life.

"we make a mistake when we think that stories must be factually true in order to be true and truthful"

Do you actually understand what you're saying? You've just undermined the entire concept of truth.

Mark Eaton, I view your definition of religion as too limited. I see it as much more than a bunch of institutions and practices. It includes the various dogmas about the afterlife and the supernatural. The existence of God and the divinity of Jesus are not objective facts, but positions taken by Christian dogma. A person can certainly have faith in God's existence and Jesus' divinity, or have faith in the deity or deities from some other dogma, or have faith in something else outside of any dogma, or have faith in nothing. But faith should not be required of anyone, which is my objection to dogma.

I also see religion as includes questions about the purpose of life, the certainty of death, and possible routes to happiness. These questions are important to most if not all religions. In my view, it should be possible to talk about these questions outside of a dogmatic context.

Jim said: "Sure the Bible was written by man,but it was God who spoke to man.All the non-belivers better pray that the Bible is not real.Eternity is a real long time."

If an omnipotent being would condemn human beings to an infinite amount of time in hell for the sins of a finite life, we have bigger problems on our hands.

You cannot say you don't know if the stories are truthful or not, and then tell your child that "I know this is an important and truthful story." That is a contradiction. Of course they are fairy tales. If you accept them as literally true, you accept women were somehow crafted from the rib of a man (to demonstrate they are subordinate), the earth is 6,000 years old, and that God in the Old Testament is vengeful and spiteful (not to mention that little gem in Deuteronomy instructing the faithful that non-believers should be killed). Unfortunately, lots of people believe this stuff.

Mr. Borg is a moderate, and no doubt well meaning...but you cannot have it both ways.

Ms. Breezy, just to set you straight:

The modern Bible was NOT NOT NOT "written in the 16th century by a British king" !!!!!

The "King James Bible" is so called because King James I of England ordered a new translation of the Bible. "The Bible" itself had already existed for centuries, as a compilation of books, some originally written in Hebrew (the Old Testament) and some in Greek (the New Testament). For 1000+ years the Roman Catholic church had been using a Latin translation of those books. The English translation ordered by King James was carried out by a committee of clergy and scholars. It was new and different because it went back to the Hebrew and Greek texts instead of working from the Latin translation.

Dr. Borg:

Thank you for your lack of insight into faith. But of course you do not seem to have faith, because faith is the "substance of things not seen" which means if you cannot touch it with your hands, or see it with your eyes then your belief in it is called faith.

All of us have faith in things unseen like God. We believe in electricity but has anyone actually seen it? We believe in gravity but have you touched it lately? Are we so arrogant or intellectual that we cannot have faith in a being so much higher than us that we cannot even fathom what he is like? How many of us consider that it must be true for ET beings to exist but yet cannot believe in a being that created all things?

My faith is not what religion I believe in. This forum for a discussion of faith is misguided. It is really a discussion on religion. Religion is a bunch of institutions and practices that are unimportant to God. The book of James describes religion best, "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble and to keep oneself unspotted by the world". How many of us "religious" folk can live up to that definition?

So, if you search yourself, you already know why you do have faith in God/Jesus. For if we believe that He is, and He is who He says He is, then we are not the most important things in this world. We must seek and find Him who is the most important. And we must live by what he has said. Seek Jesus. He really lived, He really said the things written about Him, and He really rose from the dead to give us a chance for eternity with God. For Without Him, we are lost.

Matthew 5:11 ¶ Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Granted there may be non-literal truths in the bible, but there are also many malicious falsehoods:
1. PAUL's view of Jesus is unhistorical.
2. The Gospels are anti-Jewish and the source of anti-semitism.
3. The narrow nationalism of the OT Jews leads invariably to legitimate displeasure with Judaism -- leading to anti-Jewish nationalism and religion.
4. The emphasis on salvation is made individual -- contrary to Israelite conceptions. It leads to sado-masochistic preoccupation with self.

Tonio, indeed, once I came to the realization that the literal supernatural being concept didn't make sense to me I thought I was no longer a Christian. Since then I have read works by many Christian scholars such as Dr. Borg, N.T. Wright, Crossan, Spong, and others who showed that I while my definition of God was different than what I learned in Sunday School, I was still a Christian. Dr. Borg's excellent books describe a new Christian paradigm and I have since met many others in mainline churches who believe along similar lines. With our exponentially expanding understanding of the physical world, we tend to look at things literally. This was not true before the age of the Enlightenment. And I believe that is the point of Dr. Borg's statement. In other words, there are two kinds of truth: literal truth and metaphorical truth.

Ms. Breezy,

Valid point about believing in something greater than ourselves. But when it involves religious concepts such as an anthropomorphized higher power, I don't believe this can be successfully taught to children or to anyone else, and I oppose the idea of making such a belief a requirement through dogma. Even with the best of intentions, teaching of dogma amounts to a mild version of brainwashing, since dogma is "Believe this because I said so." Or else the teaching of dogma leads the student to reject all religion, throwing out the baby of philosophy with the bathwater of dogma. It's certainly possible to teach children to appreciate the vastness of nature or the universe, which can be a humbling experience. But it's ultimately up to the individual whether he or she believes in a higher power.

Sure the Bible was written by man,but it was God who spoke to man.All the non-belivers better pray that the Bible is not real.Eternity is a real long time.
Jesus is Lord.

Although I read the Old Testament much earlier in my life than DanG did, I had exactly the same reaction, especially after reading the Sacrifice of Isaac story. But I still agree with Momohund that there are metaphors of value in the book.

I view the Bible as a product of the time in which it was written. The Bronze Age was a time of high meteorite activity, so it was understandable for people in the Old Testament era to view gods as vengeful. The New Testament shows that people centuries later saw gods as more merciful. The Greek myths show the same development - early stories about child sacrifices were toned down over time, and the Olympians became more benevolent and less capricious.

And JWS, that leads into my next point. I've read that the Sacrifice of Isaac story was supposed to be a metaphor for the Israelites' rejection of child sacrifices. There may be some validity in that. (For me, that would still not explain why an all-benevolent deity would play such a sick mind game with Abraham.)

However, the metaphor hypothesis conflicts with the view of the Bible held by most Christians, even ones who do not follow a 100% literal reading of the Bible. I have never met any Christian who rejects the idea of God as a supernatural traffic cop or who rejects the concept of supernatural beings. In fact, I have been told that anyone who does that has no right to call himself or herself a Christian.

I have to agree with JWS. I was raised to believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, which is the basis of Christianity. As I've grown up, I've read the bible and found loads of contradictory statements about God. Does that make me denounce my Christian Faith? Of course not. What we must remember is that the modern Bible was written in the 16th century by a British king, a man, and men are not without their flaws. My point is, we must teach our children to believe in something/someone greater than ourselves. If there is anyone who honestly believes that there is not a Higher power watching over our lives, whether you call him God or Buddha or Allah, then you are living a very empty life.

SSGTDJF,
You have made the assumption that all Christians believe that Jesus is "a supernatural being" (that doesn't exist). Many (including myself) have rejected God as a "supernatural being" who directs traffic down here. Why can't God be something bigger? Why can't "good" be just part of God? You are trying to define God to criticize Christians, but this is an assumption on your part that does not apply to all Christians. Clearly if we literalize the bible, we see a contradictory God: sometimes vindictive sometimes loving. The concept of God grows with our understanding and you can see that if you look at the books of the bible in their historical setting. Jesus was a reformer. He inspired a new way of viewing God -- an expanded definition so to speak. Just as our understanding of the physical universe grows, so will our understanding of God.

Ah, ssgtdjf, what are you so afraid of? What other role models are you referring to and how could they possibly hold a candle to perfection? Faith takes courage, ssgtdjf.

"...but we make a mistake when we think that stories must be factually true in order to be true and truthful." It is early in the morning. I am trying to make sense of this statement. I go to my dictionary and read the many definitions of "true". The ditionary confirms my initial reaction, this is gibberish. Not just gibberish, but dangerous gibberish. If truth is not truth, is falsity not false?

Patty,
There are so many other people and role-models that have done far more for this world then Jesus ever did. I understand it is hard for people of faith to let go of the only thing they have a hold of. But with education, philosophy and an understanding of the real world, you and your children can make choices that are good because they are good, not because you are trying to please a supernatural being that does not exist.

Having spent my entire adult life in children's faith formation, I would like to simply affirm that your reflections resonate with mine. I also have benefited greatly from your work in the Jesus Seminar. Keep up the good work.

I personally believe the Bible to be divinely inspired. I also believe the Bible contains essential truths about our existence, our purpose and our future. I believe Jesus is a wonderful role-model for our children and the more they know about Him, the better they will be. I also believe if each individual would concentrate on becoming as good and as wonderful as he or she could possibly be instead of looking out to condemn others for their beliefs, this world would be a far, far better place for all of us.

Ok I will play your Metaphor game:

Explain this Metaphor (in your own words):

Numbers 31
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

The stories in the Bible are not quite fairy tales, but not truthful either. We can't say to each other, don't kill your brother and marry his wife for the kingdom, ambition, and power. You'll tell me to go soak my head and to not tell you what you can and can't do; however, when we write Macbeth we all go, "Sayyyy. I'm not going that route." The Bible is written in the same context. Metaphor. We communicate ideas through metaphor. Every culture is like this. The Bible is full of stories and metaphors on how to deal with life and its tribulations. If you think Jonah actually sat in the mouth of a whale, I question your mental competency. But when you see the tale behind the story, you begin to understand the value of the Bible. Unless you are seeing the Bible in this light, you are putting yourself in a dangerous position and completely misunderstanding the Bible. You are not learning the values taught in it, and more likely than not you are heading down the crazy route of fundamentalism and insanity.

I came to the Bible late in life, but reading it, now in my sixties, drove me away from Christianity. I cannot accept the vengeful, petty, mean-spirited god of the Old Testament. That being does not represent the values I aspire to live by. If the Bible is not factual, if its teachings are based on metaphor, then what is the message that such a god leaves us with? That god does not represent the values I was led to believe God did.

First I beleive in God, God Is, a belief and feeling in my heart and soul. The Bible was written by man, and man changes things according to his own belief.As man writes special for so many years they changed facts.When you believe in faith. My Faith is God. Not something that someone writes.

Resistance is futile.

Dr Borg:

Are you familiar with a hoax book, "The Protocols of International Zionism." It's the "absolute truth" basis of what we now call the holocost, what the Nazi used to say Jews were out to take over the world. Henry Ford fell for it and even had the book printed in serial in his company newspaper.

That hoax book was based upon a French play. It's very simple to construct a literary hoax. Take someone else's work, fact or fiction, change the names of people and places, throw in enough to sell whatever it is you're selling with ample warp to the original work to disguise it and bingo. You got yourself a five star work of literary art suitable to sell your wares be they genocide or the absolute truths of Ammighty God.

Can't we do better than a hoax for our source of God?

Dr Borg:

Of course the Bible is based upon real stories. No one mused at the ceiling and said, "This is a fine tale so I'll include it." The question you failed to address is the source of those stories.

Many great authors have given us excellent philosophy by which to lead our lives, all advertised as fiction. Were these authors lying? Did Huckleberry Finn really exists and Twain was lying? The Bible is different.

The Bible dates a time when only the upper crust had anything at all written about them, by name. Yes, the people as a whole are mentioned, hordes and so on but only big shots, important people were named. So one must wonder why "the son of God" must go by a nickname, why the most important person that ever lived, the spiritual founder of all three great faiths, Moses doesn't have a real name. And if they do then why did only the authors of the Bible write anything about them?

I'm sure you know the "firstborn son" of Pharaoh was his successor. Don't you imagine the Egyptians who had thousands of scribes would have recorded an event like his death by murder even. They did! All we have to do is read what they wrote.

Yes indeed, the Bible is based upon real stories with a lot of supernatural being garbage thrown in and presented so the reader will draw false and misleading conclusions. All one has to do to see the original story that is the base of the Bible is read what the Egyptians wrote. It's on the internet, in English even at http://www.hoax-buster.org There's enough there to stimulate the apetite to see more for sure.

I agree with Mr. Borg that there is no harm in telling a child the Bible is the inspired word of God but the way events are decribed may not be totally accurate. Was Earth created in seven days ? What is time to God who always was and will always be ? For those who would suggest a belief in God is believing in a fantasy, I would ask how did the universe and everything within it come about? To those who suggest science is the answer, I will ask which is harder to believe, that you can create something from nothing or that a Creator for whatever reason put into place the making of the universe no matter how it came about.

Of course, the Bible and other sacred scriptures are not fairy tales –

Would you tell them the earth is 6000 years old, when in fact that is false. How about killing and raping within the bible. Are these true or fairy tales? The trend of picking out the good and leaving the bad is irresponsible.
The way I teach my child to free think and be moral is simple. The answer is based off a social contact every social being on earth has inherited over time base on environment and necessity of life. “I will help you if you help me, I will not hurt you if you do not hurt me”

In addition to this contract, you add science, philosophy and history.

Well, Marcus, if the stories in the "bible" are not fairy tales, then what are they? How about folk tales? If you are the scholar you purport to be, then you must know that the basic story of Judaeo-Christian religion, God's (Yahweh's) creation of everything in six days, is a folk tale which precedes the ancient Hebrews' version of it by thousands of years. Every religion that can be traced through chiselings on stone tablets and cuneiform on clay tablets has the story of a deity who creates everything: by spitting it all out of "his" mouth, by masturbating and ejecting semen that creates it all, by thinking it all out, and - the one that predates Genesis precisely - by creating a man out of clay or mud.
You can go through every one of the stories in the Old Testament and New Testament scriptures and find that each and every one is what modern scribes call a rewrite: that is, a revision of prior fairy tales or folk tales if you prefer, found in the beliefs of primitive peoples predating the ancient Hebrews who invented Yahweh and the prophets by many thousands of years. The foremost biblical scholar of the last century, Professor Albright, traced these stories as far back as 20,000 years B.C. Why induce children, or adults as well for that matter, to believe in the fairy tales and folk tales of primitive peoples who had no way of understanding the causes of the events in nature - sunshine, moonshine, wind, rain, snow, storms, introduction and replication of crops and creatures, etc. - and who therefore attributed all of it to the works of a pantheon of deities governed by one major deity? Do you really believe it does anyone any good to believe in phantasmagorical concepts? If you teach and induce belief in fantasies, and the person taught comes to realize he or she has been flimflammed, you help to create a cynical creature who may come to doubt what anyone says. Thus, this pretty picture of how nice it is to induce belief in fantasies backfires. It occurs to me that this process - "yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus", etc. - winds up being destructive.

I couldn't agree more. The importance of the stories in the Bible don't lie in the accuracy of their facts. The stories are important because of the principles that they teach.