Spiritual Identity Theft

I AM A CHRISTIAN FIRST. I THANK GOD FOR PASTORS LIKE LYLE DUKES. HE IS A VERY INTELLIGENT AND SINCERE PASTOR. WE NEED TO HEAR MORE OF HIS IDEA AND THOUGHTS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Pastor Dukes, you keep on doing what you do! You are a profound, intelligent man whose life is more than just words on a web page. You words bring life and it all comes from God and the life-saving power of Christ. Because of your love and spirit of servitude, you touch more than the lives of those in your congregation--you impact the world through your teaching, preaching, and, most importantly, your lifestyle. Because of your righteous walk, there are those standing in the wings who are waiting to be dispatched with words that will try to tear you down. They offer nothing but hate, discouragement, and bitterness not realizing they are just reflecting their own broken souls. Yet you, and other righteous men and women of God continue to pray for such as these not counting the hurt that people try to bring your way. Your seeds of love will not return void. Thank you for your continuing to stand in spite of opposition!

"In my opinion, denying the existence of God is much like getting up every day and denying that there will be a tomorrow, “I have never seen it – so I won’t believe in it.”"

Ha! *Files in record of silly theist comments*

What a characteristically ignorant statement. I am an atheist myself, and I have never met another atheist who has this attitude to their disbelief.

I do not understand the problem atheists have with faith, particularly others' faith. Everyone has faith in something. And everyone has a belief system. As I get out of bed in the morning, I have the faith and belief that the floor will be there and the rest of my house is in tact. I do not wake up and ask for proof that my car is in the garage before I get ready for work and go out to get into it.
My faith is built on the way God has manifested himself in my life. The evidence of God's existence is not external but internal. Perhaps atheists have not recognized God's hand in their lives. It is a wonderful experience and until they have it, they will not understand it. Faith is anything but logical. And no one will or should be expected to understand the tenets and power of faith in God without a relationship with God. So I understand fully what the atheist feels because until I had a relationship with God, based on His divine presence in my life, I really doubted that God was real and thought of him as some kind of thing people needed to beat other people with.
One more thing. In general, we have faith in our parents (who, by the way, did not create us), in doctors (who are just practicing medicine). And it is interesting that many people, Christians and atheists, will allow a physician to cut them open but never take time to verify their physicians' degrees, g.p.a.'s and criminal background. That is great faith!

Yet, when it comes to God, there is this great cloud of suspicion, particularly when it comes to ministers of the Gospel.

Some people read books which advance the atheist position (or lack thereof, with all due respect). A belief system is thereby carved. To a certain degree, we are a product of what we sense and internalize. I sense the presence of God. Atheists do not. No argument can make an atheist know or sense what a christian senses in the Holy Spirit. Only the power of God is capable of changing the perspective of the atheist. And if He wills it to be so, He is powerful enough to do it. One thing is for sure. We will all know the truth at the appointed time.

I do not understand the problem atheists have with faith, particularly others' faith. Everyone has faith in something. And everyone has a belief system. As I get out of bed in the morning, I have the faith and belief that the floor will be there and the rest of my house is in tact. I do not wake up and ask for proof that my car is in the garage before I get ready for work and go out to get into it.
My faith is built on the way God has manifested himself in my life. The evidence of God's existence is not external but internal. Perhaps atheists have not recognized God's hand in their lives. It is a wonderful experience and until they have it, they will not understand it. Faith is anything but logical. And no one will or should be expected to understand the tenets and power of faith in God without a relationship with God. So I understand fully what the atheist feels because until I had a relationship with God, based on His divine presence in my life, I really doubted that God was real and thought of him as some kind of thing people needed to beat other people with.
One more thing. In general, we have faith in our parents (who, by the way, did not create us), in doctors (who are just practicing medicine). And it is interesting that many people, Christians and atheists, will allow a physician to cut them open but never take time to verify their physicians' degrees, g.p.a.'s and criminal background. That is great faith!

Yet, when it comes to God, there is this great cloud of suspicion, particularly when it comes to ministers of the Gospel.

Some people read books which advance the atheist position (or lack thereof, with all due respect). A belief system is thereby carved. To a certain degree, we are a product of what we sense and internalize. I sense the presence of God. Atheists do not. No argument can make an atheist know or sense what a christian senses in the Holy Spirit. Only the power of God is capable of changing the perspective of the atheist. And if He wills it to be so, He is powerful enough to do it. One thing is for sure. We will all know the truth at the appointed time.

I watch and listen to you and Deborah on Sunday morning's now you are not there. What happened?. Are you on another channel or are you on TVOne at another time. Please let me know. You and deborah have helped me through this year of great turmoil. I go to church, sometimes I can't make it. I enjoyed your preaching and teaching. Thanks gloria

How could any one deny the existence of God? Take a look around and see the Earth and other planets. How did it all get here?

Some say the "Big Bang" Theory but that makes no sense at all. Some say evolution was the starting point for mankind. Nonsense!

There must be a God because we would not be existing: all the anmials, plants, and humans.

Pastor Dukes,

Your insight is sound. We are designed to believe in something. Unfortunately people are so stuck on trying to make thier point in this forum that they're missing the message you're communicating.

Faith is very powerful. I agree that denying the existence of God is foolish. Creation is just one of the evidences that He is real. I hope that people's eyes will be open to the truth of God and salvation that comes through His son Jesus.

Be encouraged and continue to carryout the good work you're doing for Him.

Please those that havent ever attended Harvest lifechangers , you must attend, seeing is beleiving,

Most atheist and/or agnostic "say" they don't believe in God. So therefore, they should not believe in heaven or hell. But if you tell them that "all and sinned and come short of the glory of God"... and without repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior, they are doomed for hell... they will argue with you that they are not going to hell. But why do they need to argue since they don't believe in God. This is another reason that there are no atheist and/or agnostic people. You don't need to defend something you don't believe.

Enjoyed your insight...

Pastor Dukes,

It is a privilege and an honor to read your comments. We thank God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for using you as His vessel for "such a time as this."

The intensity of the posts I read thus far has been so great I had to check the "About On Faith" link to reconnect with this site's purpose.

"At The Washington Post and Newsweek, we believe the first step is conversation-intelligent, informed, eclectic, respectful conversation-among specialists and generalists who devote a good part of their lives to understanding and delineating religion's influence on the life of the world."

"We think that the online world, with its limitless space, offers us a unique opportunity to carry on a fruitful, intriguing, and above all constructive conversation about the things that matter most."

I leave it to the readers to figure out if the following observation applies to you or not:

There is nothing scientific, logical or intellectual about destructive criticism. Your words felt violent - inflicting more damage on an already tumultuous topic. You do your position more harm than good with such angry, cutting critique. I hear hate in your words not stimulating debate, enlightenment or appreciation for alternative views. I believe you close the gate on an opportunity to positively engage with people who do care to understand and are not looking to see "put downs" - on the panelist or individuals submitting posts.

To Pastor Dukes - I appreciate you for your faith and courage in sharing your views. May you and your church continue to be a pillar in your community and the world beyond.

Grace and Peace

Anonymous,
My response: The "claims that the Bible and Christians are being persecuted" and NOT my own. By going to the website I posted earlier one can see for themselves as well as the other examples I posted. These things are STILL going on today as they were back in the days of the Bible! As for people "preaching" to my children, I believe education begins at home with the parents and not afterwards. Parents need to take an active role in educating their children and not simply send them to school and let the teachers do that for them. I've seen many a Christian family take their kids out of the traditional school system and home-school them so that they can show them why they believe what they do as a family. It also allows them to spend more TIME with their children. "Children use four letters to spell love, T-I-M-E", - Max Lucado.

People of different faiths, do come into our community, i.e. Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses as they do other communities. When these men and women knock on doors, alot of people verbally abuse these people and slam the door in their faces and somehow I don't believe its because they are not of their "religion". I sincerely doubt that is the reason! I believe people don't want to hear about anything that doesn't fit into their little "Box-Of-Comfort-and-Familiar-In-Their-Life" and continue to live as they want - risk free - because they are afraid of change..! I usually take the time to at least listen to what these people have to say and then politely refuse their literature and let them know what I believe and why, which usually involves some good dialog between two human beings! There's 1 Corinthians 13 in action as well as Matthew 7:12, which is something both Christians and unbelievers have heard time and time again and has been posted on this website!

Being part of my church's evangelist team, I've had people say, "No thanks" to prayer and/or accepting Christ as their Savior but they've always taken the food and/or juice and/or clothing we've provided as well as appreciating the fact that we were THERE and showed that we CARED..! 1 Corinthians 13, that I posted earlier illustrates that and also shows that one should be doing this for the right motivation which is loving others and not thinking about oneself, as it is not about you...!

Don't Condemn Others. Matthew 7:1-6 (NLT) Jesus speaking, "Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye.' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye, then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye. Don't give what is holy to unholy people. Don't give pearls to swine?" Looking at this Scripture in its entirety, I fail to see how a missionary nor anyone wanting to help someone because they care about them, illustrates your point. Missionaries and/or evangelists are not condemning anyone, in fact further reading in Matthew shows this, Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) Jesus speaking, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Later in Mark 12:29-31 (NKJV) Jesus speaking, "The most important commandment is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Most missionaries and/or evangelists are very enthusiastic about their faith and what its meant to their lives and want to share it with others as they feel that same can happen for them yet somehow that's wrong, but its ok to have that same enthusiasm for a sports team(s)...! We're not talking about a zealot here either..!

Martyrs: Revelations 7:9-11
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

Based on all of these things it is "inevitable" that God will achieve the results He wants to achieve His Divine Plan and get all of the Glory and Honor..!

You have a FANTASTIC day!

Lajon,

All you have done there is post a whole series of anecdotes and some passages from the bible. My point was in relation to your claims that the bible and christians were being repressed, and all I asked was is it any wonder when missionaries go into an area which is not predominantly of your religion and as far as the rest of the society there, condemning their childrens' souls to eternal damnation.

Is that not the response *you* would take if Muslims came to your community and started preaching to your children? Or how about Wiccan or Satanism? Can you honestly say that you would have a totally passive reaction and not challenge them? What about people around you who may not be so reasonable?

Matthew 7:5 - Something about a beam and eyes?...

And before you think I missed your point about you wanting to do these things because you care about the immortal souls of unbelievers, I understood fully what you were getting at, but don't for a moment think you can get away with calling the inevitable results persecution without someone such as me questioning it.

Have a nice day.

Andrew,
I did in fact respond to what you posted earlier but haven't seen it appear here and I waited a couple of days prior to trying again. Hopefully, this isn't a double-post.

quoth Andrew: But on a side note - do these missionaries not understand that they are going to be provoking the deeply held religious beliefs of other cultures? I'm not trying to infer that the reaction is justified - but it is certainly not unexpected. You think you have the "Truth" and they think they have the "Truth". It is no wonder there is conflict when people think their souls are the gambling chips.

My response: Are you saying because of the "risks" involved that these missionaries shouldn't go..? Are you saying there is no "Truth" in either case..? Do you believe that we can only know what is proven by science, even though science can't teach that science is the only source of truth. Let's go back and look at "risks" because that and fear are what keep most people in the own little comfort box of Familiar. Wow, the USA Today, Thursday, January 4, 2007 - Wesley Autrey jumped INTO the path of a subway train to save the life of a STRANGER. Autrey had to LEAVE his two daughters, ages 4 and 6, on the platform. It was that, he said, or have the girls see a man run over by a subway train. "It ain't about being a hero, it was just BEING THERE AND HELPING THAT PERSON. That's all I did." THAT my friend, is a POWERFUL statement! He didn't think of himself but of a COMPLETE STRANGER and how if he didn't act, the effect it would have on his daughters..! I'm sure he was not the only person on that subway platform either...! Let's look at another example and this quote: "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." – Jim Elliot. In January 1956, a tragic story flooded headlines around the world. Five men, Nate Saint, Roger Youderian, Ed McCully, Pete Fleming, and Jim Elliot spurred by a passion to share the good news of Jesus Christ, ventured deep into the jungles of Ecuador. Their goal: to make contact with an ISOLATED tribe whose previous response to the outside world had been to attack all strangers. These men WERE AWARE that the first missionary to have entered Auca territory -- a Jesuit priest, Pedro Suarez -- had been murdered by spears in an isolated station near the confluence of the Napo and Curaray. That was 1667. In, 1956 a man named Mincaye, a member of the Waodoni people of Ecuador, formerly known as the Aucas, along with five other men of his tribe acting in fear, ignorance, and violent anger attacked and speared to death five men who had mysteriously dropped from the sky into their jungle. Through God's miraculous grace and faithful "God Followers". Mincaye would later come to understand that these men had come not to bring harm but the ultimate "message of peace". Mincaye now knows that peace comes through a relationship with the "Man Maker" (God). This is illustrated in the Scriptures, John 15:13-17 (NLT) - Jesus speaking, "And here is how to measure it - the greatest love is shown when people lay down their lives for their friends. You are my friends if you obey me. I no longer call you servants, because a master doesn't confide in his servants. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. You didn't choose me. I choose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. I command you to love each other." Also, in John 10:11 (NLT) Jesus speaking, "I am the good shepard. The good shepard lays down his life for the sheep." Let's look at this story in a Chungkai camp. One evening after a work detail, a Japanese guard announced that a shovel was missing. The officer kept the Allies in formation, insisting that someone has stolen it. Screaming in broken English, he demanded that the guilty man step forward. He shouldered his rifle, ready to kill one prisoner at a time until a confession was made. A Scottish soldier broke ranks, stood stiffly at attention, and said, "I did it." The officer unleashed his anger and beat the man to death. When the guard was finally exhausted, the prisoners picked up the man's body and their tools and returned to camp. Only then were the shovels recounted. The Japanese soldier had made a mistake. No shovel was missing after all. Who does that? What kind of person would take the blame for something he didn't do? When you find the adjective, attach it to Jesus. Isaiah 53:6 (NLT) emphasis mine: ALL of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid ON HIM the guilt and sins of us all. Risks and Fear..! I talk to people each and everyday (especially at this time of year) who say they want to make changes but in the end do nothing! In each of the above examples, those individuals KNEW the risks and yet they still ACTED despite having that knowledge for the betterment of others! Christians worldwide are encountering threats, angry mobs, abuse and destruction of property for their witness. Christians worldwide are being harassed, imprisoned, killed or deprived of possession of liberties because of their witness, such as this example, on April 20, 1999, Cassie Bernall, a junior at Columbine High in Littleton, Colorado, was a typical teenager having a typical day; then a classmate trained a gun on her and asked if she believed in God. She said "Yes". She was willing to die, instead of changing her beliefs. Another quote I'd like to share is this: “Some Christians haven’t even attempted to think about whether or not they would die for Jesus because they haven’t really been living for Him” – dc Talk. I am willing to die for mine as I know I will be with Him for all Eternity...!

Again, Scripture for all of this:
*The Great Commandment Mark 12:30-31 (NKJV) And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

*The Great Commission Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

1 Corinthians 13 – Love is the Greatest
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless.
11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

Have a nice day!

Hi again,

Lajon Webb: The Holy Bible and its message IS being banned in many countries of the world and many are being harassed, imprisoned, killed or deprived of possessions or liberties because of their witness. Christians in some of these countries are encountering threats, angry mobs, abuse and destruction of property for their witness as well. A website that you may or may not want to check out is The Voice of the Martyrs - http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/

Is this that "gentle" society you spoke of earlier?

My response: Religion (or any doctrine for that matter) can be a terrible thing when it leads to intolerance such as that. My point however was not in regards to regions where Christianity is not extant (or is in the minority), but rather in terms of our experiences in the west. But on a side note - do these missionaries not understand that they are going to be provoking the deeply held religious beliefs of other cultures? I'm not trying to infer that the reaction is justified - but it is certainly not unexpected. You think you have the "Truth" and they think they have the "Truth". It is no wonder there is conflict when people think their souls are the gambling chips.

________________________

Lajon Webb: ... What do you perceive as a "True Christian"...?

My response: Anyone who believes in the Triune and that Jesus died to redeem their sins is a Christian. The phrase "True Christian" is not one that I came up with but it is what I have seen one sect claim over another sect within Christianity. For instance, are Catholics "True Christians" or not? Mormons? Amish? Are Sunni Muslims true Muslims or are Shi'a Muslims true Muslims? All believe in core matters and doctrine, but disagree over extraneous dogma. In fact, the funny thing is that all of the above groups believe in the *same* god. Allah is just Arabic for the same one god that Christians and Jews believe in. That is why they are all called the Abrahamic religions...

Lajon Webb:: ...Is that stealing...?
I was pehaps being a bit flippant there. My apologies. What I was trying to point out was that if that was a rule to live by (rather than self-motivation to excel above others) then one could say that most people don't steal, so if you do steal today then they will not have it tomorrow! I much prefer your number two in the previous list "Do your best!" :-)

Have a nice day!

Tukka. Thank you for returning to this thread.

If you had written "Angeldove's statements were made out of an unreasonable faith in religious dogma?" not "I got chills reading Angeldove's comment. It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality, and what is responsible for that disconnect? Religion." then I wouldn't have asked you for an apology.

We don't know who we are talking to in these posts and it is impolite to make explicit comments about their personal belief systems. I am in no way implying you've made the only impolite comments on this forum. You're just the only one who has asked for a critique.

Also, I think humor should be encouraged in posts (especially when it is self depreciatory) and sarcasm should be discouraged. Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor and is most often used to mock and belittle.

Thanks again and best wishes.

Andrew,
Here is my response to your responses...
quoth Andrew: Finally, the Bible (or rather its message) was never attempted to be banned except insofar as it (Christianity) was a pagan doctrine to the Romans. The Hebrews for instance, were able to practice their religion whilst under Roman occupation. After the conversion of Flavius Valerius Constantinus to Christianity, the bible (or at least the Vulgaris) has had pretty much uninterrupted favour and has been anything but suppressed.

My response: The Holy Bible and its message IS being banned in many countries of the world and many are being harassed, imprisoned, killed or deprived of possessions or liberties because of their witness. Christians in some of these countries are encountering threats, angry mobs, abuse and destruction of property for their witness as well. A website that you may or may not want to check out is The Voice of the Martyrs - http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/

Is this that "gentle" society you spoke of earlier?

I have a heart for missions and I am glad our pastor supports missions. I'm on the outreach team in our church.

quoth Andrew: Re new covenant. Just how much of the old testament proscriptions do you throw out then? All of them? Some of them? Who decides? Certainly many Christians these days pick and choose depending on what they *personally* want to. Of course, those who don't choose exactly the same ones as you are not "True Christians". That is when dogma has destroyed the message.

My response: Christians are under a New Covenant because of what Christ did on the cross. It's as simple as that. Now, it is true alot of Christians (as well as non-believers) compartmentalize God to fit whatever they want for their lives. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven! God works on us daily it is not something that is done in an instant. We were terrible for quite some time so we have to get all of that stuff out. Everyone has issues surrendering their lives and wants to be in control because they feel that can handle it (life) and don't need any help. I wonder why people resort to alcohol (as I did) and drugs etc then..? What do you perceive as a "True Christian"...? Some one who is perfect is every and all aspects of their life..? That's going to be hard to find. As well as the perfect church and pastor...! I will say this though the best witness one can be is by the way one lives their life.

Here is a quote from one of my favorite Christian bands dc Talk from their book - Jesus Freaks, "Some Christians haven’t even attempted to think about whether or not they would die for Jesus because they haven’t really been living for Him." I look at the quote every morning and know I need to step up things in my life.

quoth Andrew: My response: your first words "Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!" don't sit well with my ethics as it is extremely selfish although as a self-motivation mantra it is not so bad. Also one could read it as condoning thievery...

My response: Doing today what others don't so I'll have tomorrow what others don't IS motivation to me. I'm simply talking about simple little disciplines that, done consistently over time, will add up to the very biggest accomplishments. Here's the problem: every action that is easy to do, is also easy not to do. Because if you don't do them, they won't kill you ... at least not today. What's more, not doing it is usually more comfortable than doing it would be. But that seemingly insignificant error in judgment, compounded over time, will kill you. One of my mentors says "It's Easier Done Than Said." I read alot of personal development books with the Bible being the absolute best of all of them. In my business I have to and I'm better for it. It's not stealing at all...anyone can do simple things like read 10 pages of a good book that's going to feed their mind with knowledge to help others - but most will not. Is that stealing...?

Gotta go eat dinner now. Talk to you later.

Hiya

Lajon Webb: Sooooo based on your own statement, please answer this question, What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible? or Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

My response: I've not read all of those hundreds of books, but I have read a few and they are anything but scholarly. In fact they seem rather strained and shrill. Others I have read trace the origins of the bible stories to Egyptian, Persian and Indian mythology amongst others. It needs to be said, that biblical archeology is *not* finding the things one would expect to find from a valid historical document. In fact Homer's work of fiction, "The Iliad" has proven more useful in finding archaeological evidence for some parts of that story (written many centuries after they happened). Think of Troy and Agamemnon (I've been to his citadel and tomb!).

Anyway - have a read of this article (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_14.html) and tell me that there is no controversy over whether the story of Jesus was unique in the preceding centuries... Then read this: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm . Don't take the veracity of those pieces at face value - have a look around and confirm for yourself the main statements.

Finally, the Bible (or rather its message) was never attempted to be banned except insofar as it (Christianity) was a pagan doctrine to the Romans. The Hebrews for instance, were able to practice their religion whilst under Roman occupation. After the conversion of Flavius Valerius Constantinus to Christianity, the bible (or at least the Vulgaris) has had pretty much uninterrupted favour and has been anything but suppressed.

Of course, neither the origins of the Bible nor its accuracy says anything about the existence your God, unless you have pinned your faith on it alone.
_____________________________

Lajon Webb: ... I love lobster and shrimp too! [Me: Ditto!] Which brings us to the rest of your quote about how hard it is to live up to everything in the Bible. We as Christians are under a new Covenant because of what Christ did on the Cross..! It's very hard to live a righteous life and most just will not even do it at all nor even try...especially in these days.

My response: Re new covenant. Just how much of the old testament proscriptions do you throw out then? All of them? Some of them? Who decides? Certainly many Christians these days pick and choose depending on what they *personally* want to. Of course, those who don't choose exactly the same ones as you are not "True Christians". That is when dogma has destroyed the message.

___________________

Lajon Webb: One more question Andrew, is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness to submit to Him?

My response: How many times do I need to state that I give no more credence to your god than I do any other mythological story character? Is it possible that your unbelief in the the purple fire-breathing dragon at the end of my garden is actually an unwillingness on your behalf to to give him coal to eat?

I think the problem here is that you, like many religious people, just cannot comprehend that *insert deity of choice* is only real in your own mind. To others, such as myself, it just does not exist (strong Atheist position) or we have no knowledge of its existence (weak Atheist position)!

_____________________________

Lajon Webb: I'd also like to close with some words that are actually time-tested and relevant for everyone..!

Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!

Expectations of others are rarely higher than the ones you heap on yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
1 John 3:16-21

1. Do What's Right
2. Do Your Best
3. Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated

My response: your first words "Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!" don't sit well with my ethics as it is extremely selfish although as a self-motivation mantra it is not so bad. Also one could read it as condoning thievery...

I much prefer the normal formulation of the golden rule: "Do to others as you would have them do to you".

In your following list of three doctrines, I have absolutely no problem though!

Have a great day!

(I hope this isn't a double post - I got an error the first time)

Anonymous, to quote and respond to your remarks:

-
"First to Angeldove. You said: "It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality." But if you had read more than one of her posts you would know she was molested as a child and endured many hardships before her faith in God made a significant change in her lifestyle. That's her reality and she is entitled to share it here without you questioning her mental stability."
-

First, it should be apparent that my remarks were not designed to hurt Angeldove, who claims to no longer be participating in this forum. Regardless of that fact, I don't think it is right to characterize what I said about her as an gratuitous insult for the reasons I will mention in a second, and I think that if anybody feels insulted or offended by what I said, that is on them.

If someone subscribes to what I feel is a completely irrational world view, and this feeling of mine is well supported by the evidence (which in this case is the LACK of evidence for her having very specific ideas about reality), how is describing her as having "a disconnect from reality" unjustified, or in any way out of line?

Perhaps I am incorrect in assessing the ultimate source of her disconnect, but the proximate cause of the irrational ideas expressed in her comment here, is undoubtedly her religion. If she is entitled to express her opinion that my words are coming from the devil (and this is strongly implied), then why should I be rebuked for expressing my assessment that her statements were made out of an unreasonable faith in religious dogma?

This is a prime example of the double standard that I think some people in this discussion are applying.

-
"Then there's your comments to Pastor Dukes. Yes, you did mistake him for another panelist and make an admission..sort of..(but for me nothing clears the air after you've accused someone of something falsely like -please forgive me). You also wrote he should be "doing something productive". If you had read the previous posts, you would know his church has over 70 ministries active in their community. I call that productive."
-

Yes, I admitted (not "sort of") that I was in error attributing someone else's comments to pastor Duke. I did this moments after posting my comment. If I could have gone back and edited the comment, I would have. I should have been more careful. I apologize. However, I think it clearly was an honest mistake and I don't think that it is really going to do any real harm to Pastor Duke's reputation.

To address your other contention. I was making a very specific point, essentially a sarcastic mirroring of a similar suggestion made by Angeldove towards atheists, to quote her: "Why don't you stop wasting energy criticising people who are trying to help others and you start trying to make this world a safer place to live."

What I was trying to illustrate is how our participation in this forum does not, in any meaningful way, detract from any "good" we may do in the world any more than Pastor Duke's taking the time to write this column detracts from the "good" that he does. I thought that the context of my remark was apparent, but perhaps I should have directly quoted Angeldove in the original comment for additional clarity.

I'm glad you took the time to outline your objections, it's hard to tell sometimes how people might unintentionally misinterpret your words. I think we can save ourselves a lot of grief by being specific about what we have a problem with and what we mean when we say various things.

Andrew,
One more thing:
Lajon Webb: So how did you come to atheism Andrew?
My response: - That is a long story, but just to get the main points, I had a deep fascination with how things in nature worked. So I went out of my way to become as well educated in these things as I could (this was pre-internet). Also, I had studied comparitive religion, history and anthroplogy so I could see how and why the tales contained within the various religions came to be (have you ever heard of Mithra by the way?). After that it was a no-brainer really. How did you come to your disbelief in Ba'al or rejection of the doctrines of Hindu?

I never addressed this and I like to now. I have a long history as well. Let's see, back in the 60's I went to a Baptist church in St. Louis as a child with my grandmother. Attending Sunday school as well but didn't know why. Now I was about 9 years old when I asked about "that guy on the cross that looked hurt." My grandmother assumed I "knew" as I was attending church and Sunday school. She explained everything to me and I asked for Christ to be my Savior and got baptized and became a member of that church at the age of 9. This angered some of the congregation as I was a child and "too young to be a member of the church." The pastor at the time informed them how I was at least willing to become a member and serve the church whereas alot of them had been sitting in the pews...doing nothing. Years later, and still not reading the Bible and maybe saying my prayers before bed....occasionally...I joined the US Navy. Now, here I kept getting bombarded by "Bible-Thumpers" as we called them and they always came to ME...! I would always throw up my shield and say, "I'm good to go...I'm saved...I'll do that church stuff when I'm 90 and got one foot in the grave...I'll get right then...don't wanna go to hell..!" I usually said this as I was hung-over from the previous night's liberty party..! I wondered though..WHY...these guys kept coming to ME..! Fast-forward to 1992. I'm out of the Navy now and I constantly thinking I need to get my life in order. I still have a drinking problem and love to party...serious baggage from the military. I figure maybe I should get into God's Word as those "Bible-Thumpers" suggested BUT I'm not too crazy about going to church and being "misled" by some "smooth talking preacher" I can just read the Bible myself. I should backup here. I wanted to become a member of a "religion" where I could still drink and party AND still be good with "whomever" when I die. I KNEW I should be reading the Bible and going to church though. I started carrying this microscopic Gideon's Bible around and reading it because I remembered how my grandmother used to read The Daily Bread and The Bible. Well, I got a job in Silicon Valley and the person sponsoring me was a Christian and asked me about that Bible. Long story short, he would up buying me a Bible and introducing me to Contemporary Christian Music as he was not too fond of the explicit language in my choice of music. We spent alot of time together on those lunch hours and he began to minister to me and explain WHY I needed to go to a good Bible teaching local church. Going to church to me meant getting all dressed up (something I would do for a job interview but not for church) and I didn't want to do that. Funny thing about God though, He'll take you just as you are. See nobody had told me that except for my friend at work. I finally went to church and have been the better for it and I no longer have a drinking problem because of God. No AA meetings nor anything else, just God. The same God who knows me inside out and is working on me daily. I'm 46 now and have an AWESOME relationship with the Lord.

I want to say this though...I felt I had to be "perfect" as I felt that is what it meant to be a Christian, like the people in the Bible. Those people were far from perfect (except Jesus of course) and God still used them to carry out His plan and He still does the same thing today! This whole conversation on the Internet may be part of His plan for someone else to know Him. I believe that people are being saved by my witness. May God get all the Glory and Honor!

One of my favorite people in the Bible is David! I remember reading that guy's for the first time and going "wow". Awesome..! It was then that I realized as long as I kept my eyes on man, instead of Christ I would always be disappointed.

Christ lived the life we could not live and took the punishment we could not take to offer the hope we cannot resist.

Who does that? What kind of person would take the blame for something he didn't do?

When you love the unloving, you get a glimpse of what God does for you.

Anyway, just wanted to share that.

Take care..!

Andrew,
I thought I posted on here last night after coming home from church but somehow it's not here. Don't know why anyway, let's continue our discussion...

quoth Andrew: You are forgetting one thing here. Each of those things you state can be detected and measured objectively by many people - all with he same results. However, ESP has never been measured or detected. We only have subjective and highly questionable testimony to go on and evidence always trumps testimony. The same thing applies to your god (from an atheist's perspective).

My response: Sooooo based on your own statement, please answer this question, What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible? or Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

quoth Andrew: I have not kept all 10 of the commandments, no. And nor should I as it is not my book. However, the so-called golden-rule which is shared by most religions sits very well with my ethics. The golden rule roughly coincides with 5-10 of your commandments. But, have you ever worked on a Sunday? Or how about followed Leviticus 11:10 (eating Shellfish is an abomination) or Leviticus 19:19 (wearing clothing made from 2 types of material is an abomination). They are just the mild proscriptions that don't harm other people. If you truly lived by absolutely everything in the bible, you would soon be put away for life as a threat to other people, so even you will pick and chose what is appropriate in modern gentle society.

My response: No, I haven't kept all of the 10 Commandments either..! I'm not perfect and do not profess to be perfect. Yes, I have worked on Sundays instead of going to church thereby making the "choice" to work the hours instead of losing my job at the time. Now I've made the "choice" to work from home with my business so that I can go to church..! Now, most people will not step in faith and do that even though they say they want to make some changes in their lives...but do nothing about it..(especially at this time of year)..! So their choice has been made by them and sadly they are reaping the consequences of that choice, not enough time with their children, etc. I love lobster and shrimp too! Which brings us to the rest of your quote about how hard it is to live up to everything in the Bible. We as Christians are under a new Covenant because of what Christ did on the Cross..! It's very hard to live a righteous life and most just will not even do it at all nor even try...especially in these days. Jesus helps us with this as well in Matthew 11:28-30 (NLT) Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke fits perfectly, and the burden I give you is light. One more question Andrew, is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness to submit to Him?

I'd also like to close with some words that are actually time-tested and relevant for everyone..!

Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!

Expectations of others are rarely higher than the ones you heap on yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
1 John 3:16-21

1. Do What's Right
2. Do Your Best
3. Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated

Have a FANTASTIC day..!

Hiya,

Lajon Webb: Let repeat part of my initial post again,"Seeing is believing -- if I can't see God, why should I believe in Him?"
"So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? Have you ever seen your brain? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments? Etc."

My response: You are forgetting one thing here. Each of those things you state can be detected and measured objectively by many people - all with he same results. However, ESP has never been measured or detected. We only have subjective and highly questionable testimony to go on and evidence always trumps testimony. The same thing applies to your god (from an atheist's perspective).

I have not kept all 10 of the commandments, no. And nor should I as it is not my book. However, the so-called golden-rule which is shared by most religions sits very well with my ethics. The golden rule roughly coincides with 5-10 of your commandments. But, have you ever worked on a Sunday? Or how about followed Leviticus 11:10 (eating Shellfish is an abomination) or Leviticus 19:19 (wearing clothing made from 2 types of material is an abomination). They are just the mild proscriptions that don't harm other people. If you truly lived by absolutely everything in the bible, you would soon be put away for life as a threat to other people, so even you will pick and chose what is appropriate in modern gentle society.

________________________________________

Lajon Webb: So how did you come to atheism Andrew?
My response: - That is a long story, but just to get the main points, I had a deep fascination with how things in nature worked. So I went out of my way to become as well educated in these things as I could (this was pre-internet). Also, I had studied comparitive religion, history and anthroplogy so I could see how and why the tales contained within the various religions came to be (have you ever heard of Mithra by the way?). After that it was a no-brainer really. How did you come to your disbelief in Ba'al or rejection of the doctrines of Hindu?
______________________________________

Lajon Webb: Pascal's Wager. To be truthful, I didn't even know about that. So thanks for that bit of education and the URL link! [me: Glad I could be of help!]...

... You've referred to God as a "magical sky daddy" and "fairy tale" and I ask you why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent 'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater?
My response: I don't understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying that because people talk about something that makes it real? Remember, the only reason I'm here talking (typing) with you about the subject is because of a desire to help you to understand what atheism really is... Can you not understand that atheists do not believe in Yahwah or whatever in almost exactly the same was as you don't believe in Ra or Vishnu?
_______________________________

Lajon Webb: While you ponder that one, here's another question does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of meaning and purpose?
My response: Easy. Yes it does.
________________________________
Lajon Webb:
I was wondering...because you paraphrased Romans 1:20, I wanted to ask you to paraphrase these Scriptures as well:

Psalm 10:4 (NLT) These wicked people are too proud to seek God. They seem to think that God is dead.

John 14:6 (NLT) (Jesus speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Romans 1:18-19 (NLT) But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God put this knowledge in their hearts.

Take your time with them as you are probably busy like most of us.
___________
My response: You could throw these at me forever, but they remain words written by various human authors, edited over time and used to self-justify the religion.

To paraphrase all 3 in one hit. "You must believe in Jesus if you want eternity in heaven. If you think too much about it and don't take these words as proof, then you won't because you are proud, wicked and sinful. God will be angry with you. And you wouldn't like that".

Here are some words much more useful for the human condition and these times:

"I come from the East, most of you [here] are Westerners. If I look at you superficially, we are different, and if I put my emphasis on that level, we grow more distant. If I look on you as my own kind, as human beings like myself, with one nose, two eyes, and so forth, then automatically that distance is gone. We are the same human flesh. I want happiness; you also want happiness. From that mutual recognition, we can build respect and real trust of each other. From that can come cooperation and harmony."

The Dalai Lama.

Have a great day Lajon!

Andrew,
I was wondering...because you paraphrased Romans 1:20, I wanted to ask you to paraphrase these Scriptures as well:

Psalm 10:4 (NLT) These wicked people are too proud to seek God. They seem to think that God is dead.

John 14:6 (NLT) (Jesus speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Romans 1:18-19 (NLT) But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God put this knowledge in their hearts.

Take your time with them as you are probably busy like most of us.

Oh, if David can dance for the Lord, I can most certainly SHOUT for the Lord and PRAISE Him...! I forgot to address that quote from you in your previous post...apologizes..!

Type with you soon!

quoth Andrew:
"Romans 1:20 - paraphrased as natural things you can see are proof of him even though he is invisible? How convenient for someone who wishes to convince others of a magical sky-daddy."
My response: Let repeat part of my initial post again,"Seeing is believing -- if I can't see God, why should I believe in Him?"
"So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? Have you ever seen your brain? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments? Etc."

quoth Andrew:
"Well it sounds like you are not caught up in the dogma of organised religion which is a start, but you have made the classic mistake of assuming that atheists haven't studied the bible (and other texts). Many come to atheism directly through studying the bible. It in fact, makes the best case for atheism."
My response: So how did you come to atheism Andrew?

quoth Andrew:
"In regards to your half-hearted attempt to formulate Pascal's wager, I hope that you are praying to the correct god, and not a false one, simply because if you have made the wrong choice, you are definitely going to the "real" one's version of hell."
My response: Pascal's Wager. To be truthful, I didn't even know about that. So thanks for that bit of education and the URL link! But to answer your question, I know I'm with the right God. As you noticed in my earlier post, I said I was in His Word daily. I know Him and I wish everyone did, but He doesn't force Himself on us. We make the decision ourselves - whether we make one or not. You've referred to God as a "magical sky daddy" and "fairy tale" and I ask you why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent 'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater? While you ponder that one, here's another question does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of meaning and purpose?

Here's a little story for you:
A college student attended a philosophy class which held a discussion about God's existence. The professor presented the following logic: “Has anyone in this class ever heard God?” No one spoke. “Has anyone in this class ever touched God?” Again, no one spoke. “Has anyone in this class ever seen God?” When no one spoke for the third time, he said, “Then there is no God.”

One student thought for a second and then asked for permission to reply. Curious to hear this bold student's response, the professor agreed. The student stood up and asked the following: “Has anyone in this class ever heard our professor's brain?” Silence. “Has anyone in this class ever touched our professor's brain?” Absolute silence. “Has anyone in this class ever seen our professor's brain?” When no one in the class dared to speak, the student concluded, “Then, according to our professor's logic, it must be true that our professor has no brain!”

The student received an 'A' in the class.

Have a Fantastic Day...!

Hi Tukka.

I believe you may owe a few apologies.

First to Angeldove. You said: "It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality." But if you had read more than one of her posts you would know she was molested as a child and endured many hardships before her faith in God made a significant change in her lifestyle. That's her reality and she is entitled to share it here without you questioning her mental stability.

Then there's your comments to Pastor Dukes. Yes, you did mistake him for another panelist and make an admission..sort of..(but for me nothing clears the air after you've accused someone of something falsely like -please forgive me). You also wrote he should be "doing something productive". If you had read the previous posts, you would know his church has over 70 ministries active in their community. I call that productive.

I agree with your closing comments that "If you think someone says something that is a gratuitous insult towards you or another person participating in the discussion, feel free to call them on it." and "most of us want to keep this discussion on a civil level". I'd love to see common courtesy restored. {Maybe we need rules on how not to be a total a**hole to complete strangers} : )

quoth Lajon Webb:
To Andrew:
I referred to a book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists" by Ray Comfort, the "quotes" are NOT my own, but I agree with them..! Why not add it to your library...!

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

I am a Christian and I'll stand on Romans 1:20.
-------------------
Well Ray Comfort is missing the point entirely and trying to use cheap rhetoric. It is unfortunate that you have not thought this through yourself but choose to take his faulty definitions and philosophising at face-value.

Romans 1:20 - paraphrased as natural things you can see are proof of him even though he is invisible? How convenient for someone who wishes to convince others of a magical sky-daddy.
_____________
quoth Lajon Webb:
There is ONLY ONE GOD...I'd get to know Him by getting into His Word as I do every morning..!
_______
When people have to SHOUT that there is only one god (and conveniently the one from the religion that they happen to be born to) you have to wonder who they are trying to convince. Look, I'm glad you get comfort from a fairy-tale you have come to believe - but stop with the proselytising...
_______________________
quoth Lajon Webb:
Note: This may require one to lose a few hours of sleep to actually do some reading and studying on their own instead of listening to what is said from the pulpit and/or the Internet and various message boards, ALL instead of actually attending, tithing, and serving WEEKLY in a local Bible teaching church that is missions driven...!
______________________
Well it sounds like you are not caught up in the dogma of organised religion which is a start, but you have made the classic mistake of assuming that atheists haven't studied the bible (and other texts). Many come to atheism directly through studying the bible. It in fact, makes the best case for atheism.

_________________________
quoth Lajon Webb:
Andrew, I'm not sure which end of the spectrum you are on as an atheist and/or agnostic, but either way you are making a decision and I pray its the right one in regards to God.
_________________
For what it is worth, I see no evidence for the existence of any supernatural being, and therefore I don't believe. I also don't believe in Thor, Ba'al, Amun Ra or any of the other 3000 gods that have been believed and fought over for millenia. Nor do I believe in faeries or Santa Clause or Sasquatch.

In regards to your half-hearted attempt to formulate Pascal's wager, I hope that you are praying to the correct god, and not a false one, simply because if you have made the wrong choice, you are definitely going to the "real" one's version of hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager

And have a nice day yourself! :-)

My mistake, I got my wires crossed between what Mr. Dukes here and Mr. Nyang said in his column (regarding materialism). I didn't reread this column before commenting.

Sorry about that.

I got chills reading Angeldove's comment. It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality, and what is responsible for that disconnect? Religion.

Atheists are controlled by the devil because we see fit to call the Pastor on his use of blatant use equivocation and other flaws in his argument, instead doing something productive like ... uh, solving crimes or saving the world. And yet the Pastor is free to characterize atheists as greedy materialists or shallow bandwagon-jumpers chasing the latest "cool trend" ... apparently this does not count a precious waste of time and energy (which could be spent saving the world) because it is done in the name of God (who no religious panelist or commenter has yet proven to exist).

People of faith are indeed using different "rules of engagement" in this debate than the non-believers. The non-believers reject and criticize the use of logical fallacies and provide (and ask for) evidence and examples that reinforce their arguments. If we are using bad examples and bad evidence, I haven't seen the people of faith do a very good job of challenging it, as I think most non-believers would say they are entitled to do.

Both sides have said some unkind things. The difference is, non-believers take unkindly to the blatant and demonstrated irrationality of the believers (especially when used by the believers to attack non-believers), while non-believers seem to react in an unkind manner to the mere existence of non-believers, and react unkindly to the unapologetic use of logic and reason.

The only reason I think atheists are really coming off as "rude" and "hostile" to Christians is because we are making rational arguments against their faith, which they take VERY personally. The onus should not be on non-believers to "soften" their points to accommodate the sensitivities of the faithful. We are all participating in this debate by choice, and implicit in a discussion such as this is the understanding that both sides will try to use logic and reason to their best advantage.

If you think someone says something that is a gratuitous insult towards you or another person participating in the discussion, feel free to call them on it. Quote the offending text and describe why you think it brings nothing of value to the discussion and why you think serves only to hurt the person being attacked.

I think most of us want to keep this discussion on a civil level, even if most of us do feel rather passionately about the matters being discussed.

Wow. I don't think I can say anything productive on this piece. Sir, I hope you meet me or a fellow atheist some day and we can present our case to you, since apparently you are unaware of any positions between universal skepticism and theism.

To Andrew:
I referred to a book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists" by Ray Comfort, the "quotes" are NOT my own, but I agree with them..! Why not add it to your library...!

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

I am a Christian and I'll stand on Romans 1:20.

From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. - Romans 1:20 (NLT)

There is ONLY ONE GOD...I'd get to know Him by getting into His Word as I do every morning..!

Note: This may require one to lose a few hours of sleep to actually do some reading and studying on their own instead of listening to what is said from the pulpit and/or the Internet and various message boards, ALL instead of actually attending, tithing, and serving WEEKLY in a local Bible teaching church that is missions driven...!

Andrew, I'm not sure which end of the spectrum you are on as an atheist and/or agnostic, but either way you are making a decision and I pray its the right one in regards to God.

Have a fantastic day!

I wonder what Wesley Autrey has faith in...

A Good Samaritan jumped onto the tracks at a Manhattanville subway station at 137th Street and Broadway this afternoon to save the life of a stranger who had fallen after having an apparent seizure.

The man stumbled off the platform onto the tracks, where he could have been killed if not for the heroic efforts of 50-year-old Wesley Autrey who did the unthinkable, jumping onto the tracks with a train approaching.

"He was stuck and I was like, 'Wow. Do I struggle here?' If I got him up, then I would have to go for the ground. And I didn't have that much time. So I just went for the gutter thing," said Autrey. "I just dove on top of him and held him down, cause I knew there would be enough clearance for us."

Autrey, a construction worker who lives in the neighborhood, grabbed the man and pinned him down in the gutter between the running rails while a downtown 1 train passed overhead, miraculously leaving both men without a scratch.

"I had to have the guy pinned down, because like I said, he was in a seizure," said Autrey. "He was incoherent. He was fighting, pushing and pushing against me. So I had to lock myself down, so he wouldn't push me back, and possibly my head get hit."

Autrey's two young daughters, ages four and six, who were with him at the time of the incident, watched in horror while the situation unfolded. When the train finally came to a stop, Autrey called out to them to let them know he was alive.

Autrey guessed there was maybe an inch or inch and a half clearance between his head and the underside of the train.

"Remember, the gutter maybe got like a 12-inch drop. So his body fitted in there perfectly. And I just laid on top of him, and had to pin him down," he said.

The man Autrey saved was taken to St. Luke's hospital as a precautionary measure, where he is listed in stable condition. He is expected to be recover.

When asked if he considers himself a hero, Autrey said absolutely not. He said he was just doing what he thinks anyone else would do.

"No, I don't consider myself a hero," he said. "I just went to someone's aid. Someone who was in need of help."

warp how could it possibly annoy you that i erred on the side of non-judgementalism?
i am having a very different experience here on the boards- i see so little that is hopeful to me-
i really am someone who has an automatic suspicion of the good intentions in people- and yes- its also a valuable islamic principle.

TalkOrigins link:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA120.html

"If my own mind is a product of the irrational.. how shall I trust my mind?"

See Creationist Claim CA120: Mind's fallibility for a quickie response from TalkOrigins.

Also: this . . . ah, idea . . . is largely a product of misunderstanding evolution. Lewis seems to have assumed that it was simply messy random irrationality - this last a concept that is entirely out of place here (although *non*rational would work, in terms of any sort of intentional sense); you can basically see the chaos vs. order frame in play here. This entirely ignores natural selection - Darwin's big idea - which given random (but based on physical laws and constraints) variation quite orderly and mechanically selects for what shows up and is good enough in the particular time and place. (to grossly, grossly oversimplify, etc,)

In our case, that resulted in a brain that is very - if imperfectly, and with various habits - good at figuring certain kinds of things out. Hence agriculture, antibiotics, and airplanes. The *need* for a guiding Mind is removed (which isn't the same as demonstrating that one doesn't exist, of course). Or, coming at it from the other direction, we know, as a matter of practical results, that we can use our minds, in a certain methodologically disciplined way, to develop an useful understanding of the natural world - see moon landings, etc. Using them this way has produced modern evolutionary biology, which does not require a guiding Mind (repeat caveat) to start explaining, however imperfectly, biological diversity - and we can quite pragmatically skip all the bellybutton-contemplating handwaving about how rationality can arise from 'irrationality,': that is, order from chaos, a focus - at this level of analysis- more appropriate to myth than science.

"The atheist views the Christian as ignorant because the atheist is certain no god exists and that all of reality can be either observed or proven. So, the Christian is ignorant of science and logic by believing in a god that cannot be proven to exist. As a result, the atheist is viewed as arrogant by the Christian for claiming to be more intellectual, more scientific, more realistic, and more knowledgeable than the Christian."

Ignorance means not knowing something. As an atheist, I find the ignorance of many Christians appalling. What the Christians here seem not to know (or want to know) can be summarized as:

What atheists really believe (vs. what their pastors tell them atheists believe)

Almost anything about evolution, including what constitutes a theory, what evidence there is for it, how little evidence there is to support any religion's creation story, the mechanism by which one species evolves into another (or many others, in some cases), and the difference between abiogenesis and evolution.

The true causes of atrocities in communist countries. (If atheism were responsible for murder, wouldn't all the citizens of these countries have been murdering each other and not just the governments?)

How to construct an argument without resorting to common fallacies, most especially the false dichotomy, the tu quoque, and the straw man.

The difference between "faith," which is belief in something for which there is no evidence, and plain old belief, which can have many sources.

The contradictions and inconsistencies of the Bible.

Christians also assume they know more about the Bible than atheists do, and sometimes that's true. But many of us are former Christians who became atheists after reading the Bible and continue to learn more about it.

If you want to poke holes in atheism, go ahead. I don't really care. Just do your homework and stop insulting us if you want us to take you seriously.

Hi Warp10.

You wrote:

"Here is how Bertrand Russell thought the question should be framed. Like the Buddhists, those who view themselves as part of a river of life will not fear death, as the things they care for will continue"

Yes I agree. Bertrand Russell was having a zen moment when he wrote that. He had lived most of his life by then and (in his frame of reference) he was about to take a dirt nap. How nice to "not fear death" and have faith "the things you care for will continue on without you". But in his meaningless and purposeless universe for how long? That is a fragile and futile hope.

Although I don't agree with it, I better understand his courage and cold logic in the quote I posted previously:

"Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations at atoms; that no fire, no hero-ism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins-all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built."

But the man who puts his finger on the pulse of the matter for me is my fellow Anglican:

"The myth [of mindless Evolution] asks me to believe that reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended byproduct of a mindless process at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. The content of the Myth thus knocks from under me the only ground on which I could possibly believe the Myth to be true. If my own mind is a product of the irrational.. how shall I trust my mind? They say in effect 'I will prove that what you call a proof is only the result of mental habits which result from physics.' The fact that some people of scientific education cannot by any effort be taught to see the difficulty, confirms one's suspicion that we here touch a radical disease in their whole style of thought." CS. Lewis

Best wishes.

I appreciate the article Mr. Dukes. You do offer another side of looking at this whole matter of belief.

Quoth Lajon Webb:

"To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is no God." Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don't know if God exists. So, in the strict sense of the word, you cannot be an atheist. The only true qualifier for the title is the One who has absolute knowledge, and why on earth would God want to deny His own existence?".... blah blah blah.
_________________________________

Why is it that certain people cannot resist telling me what I as an Atheist believe?

Atheism is a spectrum running from Strong (definitive statement: Gods do not exist) to Weak (default position: I see no evidence for Gods).

Agnosticism is also a spectrum, but it originally meant that the nature of God is unknowable.

I think the majority of people who claim to be atheists fall somewhere between strong and weak (we are just talking about varying degrees of certainty here).

Agnostics (in the original sense) do believe that a God exists, but it is unlikely to to be the one that you think does and as your dogma scaffolds (please excuse the assumption I have made about your beliefs in this last sentence).

Thanks John M - I appreciate your observation ...now if we can just dialogue...more respectfully

Thanks John M - I appreciate your observation ...now if we can just dialogue...more respectfully

I am observing something interesting as I watch atheists and Christians debate. It appears that people on each side view people on the other side as both IGNORANT and ARROGANT at the same time.

The atheist views the Christian as ignorant because the atheist is certain no god exists and that all of reality can be either observed or proven. So, the Christian is ignorant of science and logic by believing in a god that cannot be proven to exist. As a result, the atheist is viewed as arrogant by the Christian for claiming to be more intellectual, more scientific, more realistic, and more knowledgeable than the Christian.

In turn, the Christian sees the atheist as ignorant because the Christian personally knows the God the atheist denies exists. So, the atheist is ignorant of the presence of God and ignorant of the meaning of life. As a result, the Christian is seen as arrogant by the atheist for claiming that his or her God rules the universe and for insisting that the true meaning in life cannot be found apart from his/her deity.

This seems to be the cause of most of the friction we see on all of these threads.

So, here I go fanning the flames…
Christians do not merely claim that God exists; we claim to KNOW Him. We have evidence of His work in our lives. No atheist will ever look intelligent by denying the existence of a God who has radically changed the lives of millions of people for thousands of years.

(I also want to commend the previous few posters who call for a more civil and respectful tone on this site. That is a refreshing idea!)

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You! ED - someone has the courage to say something. I happen to really gain from many of these articles including this one - I'm no religious fanatic - but I do like a fresh perspective once in awhile. I think this is one. I may not agree with every thing but it is something to think about.

As another note we should try to keep this site as clean as possible...I realize that many of these scholars and prominent personalities that Salley and Jon have assembled really don't have to do this - these folks have a real demand on their time. Let's see if we can respect that a little more.

All in all, I really think Mr. Dukes is trying to bring another perspective for us to take a look at. I respect that. I personally think that it is a rather interesting article (and I'm not the only one). My hope is that we can remain civilized while we develop our conversations. There is really no need for using foul language or slander - I really don't think that is what the creators of this site had in mind. Many of us read the comments and we don't want to dialogue because the main individuals dominating the site are so very rude. Most of us that are educated and intelligent choose not to participate in these circles. Let’s continue to talk and not fight.

People:

With all of that said. I forgive you and I love you anyway. No matter what you say. I still believe in God and I know that Pastor Dukes is genuine and he forgives and love you just as God does. I forgive you because you know not what you do. What you are saying is not coming from you; it is coming from another source. That source is just using you to try and convince people that there is no God. You are the flesh relaying the message. I will not come on this site anymore. However, the only thing that I want to ask you people who are criticising Pastor Dukes is what are you going to do about people who are out here killing, robbing, on drugs, gang members and people molesting people. From the way you are talking, you must have all of the power and the answers to do that if there is no God. Why don't you stop wasting energy criticising people who are trying to help others and you start trying to make this world a safer place to live. You took prayer out of schools and now our kids are going crazy on drugs and everything else. You stop us from disciplineing the kids and they just go crazy. Just shut up and stop wasting energy. Do something helpful. Please! Please! Stop it. You act as though you do not have a life. Let us live ours. Love You anyway from the heart! Angeldove

artheism: interesting ?>?>>.!

omg. this thing wuz sooooooooooooooooo boring id id not even finish it. boy, make it more interesting.damn it.who gives about artheism or whatever else this crappy stupid thing talked about. what ass wrote it

i thought this article wuz about bank identity. hoo expected it to be about god? sheesh. and i thought google wuz a good site to get newz. Sheesh again. what the hell.

"As for our continual productive conversations – we have too much in common for us not to talk."

May I point out that Christians have been the ones quick to do the "US versus THEM" modus operandi against the "unfaithful" (read that anyone who doesn't agree with THEIR version of the world).

May I point out that most of the skullduggery seen in the last 8 years in the United States government was done BY fundamentalist Christians in the name of their faith? Huge embarrassement.

Just as you can't be "slightly" pregnant, Christians must accept the fact that the religion has been extremely intolerant and aggressive "spreading that word". It is absolutely unseemly and extremely dangerous.

And FINALLY....admit it.

Christians are loyal to their RELIGION first, their COUNTRY second.

And THAT, sir is the biggest and scariest problem.

WHAT common ground can I come to with people who believe they are "CHOSEN ONES". Separate but equal????

Boy, are you people in for a big old paradigm swith.

Replying to the pastor, I find most of this a gross mischaracterization of atheism. If you want to know what an atheist believes, ask an atheist, not a theist. Likewise, if you want to know what Christians believe, ask them. And in case, you'd have to ask a lot of them to be able to draw any generalities at all. I doubt you could, though.

One kernel of truth is the need for humans to believe in "something." I think there's an evolutionary explanation: like many other communal animals, young humans learn how to survive from their parents and from the older members of their group. We do test their wisdom, and they are usually right. Mom tells you not to put your hand on the hot stove, you do it anyway, and you learn not only that hot stoves are painful but that mom is smart. Needing to trust that your elders know what they're doing is essential to survival for any animal whose instincts are insufficient for finding food, water, and shelter.

Humans evolved the ability to communicate and to think to a higher degree than other animals. So our young ask "why?" and if parents don't have answers, they might start doubting whether they really know essential life-preserving information. So parents and elders had to provide answers about stars, death, biodiversity etc. Those answers can be found in the myths of every culture.

Now that we have the scientific method to help us investigate the why's of nature, we don't need those myths. But do we still need to trust the elders in our families and community? Of course. The stovetop is still hot. Some berries are still poisonous. Mom really does know best most of the time. And because we don't have the time to repeat every scientific experiment or do our own archaeological digs, we trust the scientists who report on their results. If we were so inclined, we could repeat those experiences. Little brother sees big sister's blister burns and hears her tell him it's from the stove. He trusts his older sister is telling the truth, but he could repeat the experiment himself if he wanted to.

Trusting the more experienced members of our society and family isn't the same as trusting in a sky-daddy. And in my experience, many of the Christians I have met quote their pastor more often than they quote the bible. Many on this site have quoted things that have absolutely no biblical basis - some other believer thought it up and they're parroting it.

Yes, we need authority figures. No, we don't need that authority figure to be an invisible spirit or series of fairy tales.

""A polytheist is someone who worships a statue or person as though it, he or she had almighty god like properties not shared by the common people (typically though not always a male deity worship), such as the worship of the sun, mars, jupiter, zeus or jesus.""

Polytheism has nothing to do with worship of inanimate objects. It is belief in more than one gods, vs monotheism, belief in one god. If you want people to take you seriously, you need not to make mistakes like this.

Virginia: "but i came to this site with only knowledge of some very dear friends who are atheists and just as gentle and polite and open minded as you could imagine- i actually had an inordinate amount of respect for atheists before i saw actual interaction"

I will make a deal with you,

I will not assume all Muslims are alike...if you don't assume all atheists are alike.

Meaning: Why can't you judge a person purely on their own characteristics and personality --rather than a label? Your own acquaintances of atheists are warm kind people.

Do you know what MY experience is? That there is a strain of people who are mean-spirited close-minded -- and these people can be found in all the religions (and non-religions).

I have found kind, open minded people in all the religions (and non-religions) as well.

I have learned not to judge people by the label of their religion (or nonreligion.)

ah well warp10 you are indeed full of sparks
i am getting overwhelmed by the pinions of the atheists
i dont want to say anything negative
not you dear
but i see many many unnecessary and pointless mentation and alot of mean spiritedness- anyone anywhere can be meanspirited-

but i came to this site with only knowledge of some very dear friends who are atheists and just as gentle and polite and open minded as you could imagine- i actually had an inordinate amount of respect for atheists before i saw actual interaction

o well we all are human
also you asked some questions on the public board
i posted 2 posts on evil and suffering that have some bearing a page or 2 before

if youre interested

i must admit though that im asking questions alot that are being outright ignored by the atheists and i think its because they sdont have any answers so this is also a disappointment

An atheist is someone who has a deep abiding faith that there is no god on high (nor gods, almighty or otherwise) pulling strings or creating earthly events.

A polytheist is someone who worships a statue or person as though it, he or she had almighty god like properties not shared by the common people (typically though not always a male deity worship), such as the worship of the sun, mars, jupiter, zeus or jesus.

It is a true tragedy that the Rev. Robert Certain should have so little faith that his promise to the President Gerald R. Ford's dying words to help seek reunification within the church of g-d should be so hollow and meaningless.

A True Atheist is like an orthodox zionist, is someone who believes that heaven is on earth
and that everyone should have the freedom to pursue happiness and to appreciate heaven on earth.

The Seven Torah Commandments
============================
translated from President Moses by Rabbi Etz.

1) Do not torture.
2) Do not murder.
3) Do not enslave.
4) Swear only an oath of office.
5) Take a day of rest to worship
none other than heaven.
6) Be truthful.
7) Be successful.

The Prayer
==========
translated from Rabbi Jesus by Rabbi Etz

Our ancestors, you were on earth
Hallowed be your names
May you wisdom thrive
And guidance drive
So that heaven may journey with us
Give us all our daily nourishments
And help others to judge our failings fairly
As we fairly judge those that fail us
Elect wisdom within our republic
And promote peace on earth
Forever and ever

Condolences on the passing of President Gerald R. Ford, his wisdom lives on among us.

Happy New Year and best wishes to all!

Terence David Carroll

email: tcarroll@acm.org
email: rabbi_general@hotmail.com
email: rabbi.general@yahoo.com
email: terrydc@coolkiwi.co.nz

Copyright (c) 2007, T. D. Carroll

re REALIty Check and Meaninglessness

Yes RC, you hit on the big problem when you write:
Gosh, "noonday brightness of human genius" isn't that eloquent? But how can the soul (his word not mine!) be safely built on so impermanent and desperate a foundation?

There are at least a couple of questions here.

If Death is the end, as Russell believes, how does a human find meaning. That IS the big problem.

It is not a grown up response to say:
"well, I will just believe in a supernatural god who will get me out of my problem of meaninglessness."
It may make you feel better, but there is no reason to believe such a God exists as an empirical matter. Any more than Santa or the tooth fairy.

If you want a Grown up approach to this problem, one that doesn't rely on "immortality machines" (as in deus ex machina)

Read the GREAT book, PUlitzer Prize winning, from 1974 but very relevent today, The Denial of Death by E. Becker.

He describes an honest and work-laden approach to coming to terms with the "meaning of life" without denying the reality of death.

I'm sorry, Edward. The plural in your post confused me.

You wrote:

"Do not invite us to read Mere Christianity; some of us have already read it."

Here's an beautiful quote from B. Russell where he struggles with his meaningless and purposeless life:

"Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations at atoms; that no fire, no hero-ism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins-all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built."

Gosh, "noonday brightness of human genius" isn't that eloquent? But how can the soul (his word not mine!) be safely built on so impermanent and desperate a foundation?

Victoria,
Hit sent accidently -- I meant to say I debated Christians who would think you shouldn't be offended by their anti-Muslim rhetoric.

VICTORIA:

================================================

No Victoria. It is because we are correcting THEIR blatantly wrong (and insulting) statements about us first.

"In my opinion, denying the existence of God is much like getting up every day and denying that there will be a tomorrow, “I have never seen it – so I won’t believe in it.”

This is an outright crass lie, as I see it. Need an easy example: Which side is denying Evolution because they haven't seen it???

There are many Christians (I debated one named Canyan on another thread) who would think it was amazing Muslims would be offended at the anti-Christian rhetoric.

As you saw -- my first posts here was to join in with theists that the "Bright" label was smug and insulting. I do call the shots (for either side) as I see it.

Cheers,

[Reaility Check's quotes dropped off--so am repeating with this included]

“Unless you assume a God, the question of life’s purpose is meaningless.”—Bertrand Russell

>>Reality Check: “I believe I can answer your questions about the Bertrand Russell quote:: It is not made up and is not taken out of context. In fact, you can see a picture of it in Bertrand Russell's own handwriting in the book "The Meaning of Life" compiled by Dr. Hugh S. Morehead, former Dean of Department of Philosophy at Northeastern Illinois University (Chicago Review Press 1969, reprinted 1988).>>

I just checked it out. Your source is indeed from a pop Christian preacher named Rick Warren who notes HIS original source is from the out- of- print book [I verified Amazon.com doesn’t list it either].

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/25/acd.01.html

You say you did not take it out of context. I most strongly disagree this is based on reality!!! (Thank you Pam for your post on this.)

Dr. Russell was saying the QUESTION was meaningless if you don’t believe in God, not that our life was meaningless. .

Here is how Bertrand Russell thought the question should be framed. Like the Buddhists, those who view themselves as part of a river of life will not fear death, as the things they care for will continue:

"An individual human existence should be like a river -- small at first, narrowly contained within its banks, and rushing passionately past boulders and over waterfalls. Gradually the river grows wider, the banks recede, the waters flow more quietly, and -- in the end – without any visible break, they become merged in the sea, and painlessly lose their individual being. The man or woman who, in old age, can see his or her life in this way, will not suffer from the fear of death, since the things they care for will continue." (from the prologue of Bertrand Russell’s autobiography)

The meaning of life is that the things we care for will be immortal – and we should view ourselves as immersed and part of our ideals. This is exactly how I view the meaning of my life as well.

I am appalled at the distortion you employ by using this quote out of context, Mr. Dukes (although I am willing to assume you innocently cut and pasted this from Rick Warren).

Unfortunately -- this is not the first time I have seen this. An acquaintance gave my spouse a copy of Less Strobel’s THE CASE FOR FAITH” and I was appalled there too of the outright lies and distortions. (Of course, what could I do – the author only really debated himself and those who thought like him.)

Sorry. But if the best you can do-- is to employ outright distortions to prop up your arguments– then this would seem to me evidence you cannot support your own beliefs based on its own merits.

Sincerely,

WarpTen

“Unless you assume a God, the question of life’s purpose is meaningless.”—Bertrand Russell

>

I just checked it out. Your source is indeed from a pop Christian preacher named Rick Warren who notes HIS original source is from the out- of- print book [I verified Amazon.com doesn’t list it either].

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/25/acd.01.html

You say you did not take it out of context. I most strongly disagree this is based on reality!!! (Thank you Pam for your post on this.)

Dr. Russell was saying the QUESTION was meaningless if you don’t believe in God, not that our life was meaningless. .

Here is how Bertrand Russell thought the question should be framed. Like the Buddhists, those who view themselves as part of a river of life will not fear death, as the things they care for will continue:

"An individual human existence should be like a river -- small at first, narrowly contained within its banks, and rushing passionately past boulders and over waterfalls. Gradually the river grows wider, the banks recede, the waters flow more quietly, and -- in the end – without any visible break, they become merged in the sea, and painlessly lose their individual being. The man or woman who, in old age, can see his or her life in this way, will not suffer from the fear of death, since the things they care for will continue." (from the prologue of Bertrand Russell’s autobiography)

The meaning of life is that the things we care for will be immortal – and we should view ourselves as immersed and part of our ideals. This is exactly how I view the meaning of my life as well.

I am appalled at the distortion you employ by using this quote out of context, Mr. Dukes (although I am willing to assume you innocently cut and pasted this from Rick Warren).

Unfortuntaely -- this is not the first time I have seen this. An acquaintance gave my spouse a copy of Less Strobel’s THE CASE FOR FAITH” and I was appalled there too of the outright lies and distortions. (Of course, what could I do – the author only really debated himself and those who thought like him.)

Sorry. But if the best you can do-- is to employ outright distortions to prop up your arguments– then this would seem to me evidence you cannot support your own beliefs based on its own merits.

Sincerely,

WarpTen

I made the last post.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,180,Collateral-Damage-Part-2,Richard-Dawkins

http://richarddawkins.net/article,157,Collateral-Damage-1-Embryos-and-Stem-Cell-Research,Richard-Dawkins

While this post is stupid to the degree that it precludes serious engagement, I have found more articles by Dawkins which make a compelling case for stem-cell research. All should read them.

As for this post: "From space programs to studies in genetics and the computer sciences – belief in the unseen is powerfully major. You couldn’t go to the moon if someone had not believed."

What the hell does that mean "powerfully major." That sounds like a ten year old. And believed in what?/ Math? I didn't know that my trust in Mathematics was merely an unfounded belief. Lyle Dukes has accomplished nothing more in this post than to give atheists fodder for mocking religion.

Is "diferentially" even a word and if it is has he even come close to using it correctly? Certainly not in any grammatical sense as he was searching for a noun to end the sentence but used an adverd.

What a loathsome moron. The fact that this intellectual degeneracy and filth is part of public philosophical discourse and is put on the same page with Dennett, Dawkins, Jacoby, and Harris is embarassing. Also the fact that Dukes would be more electable as a politician and national leader than any of the aforementioned three is enough to make one hate one's homeland. Therefore I pledge to leave this sickening country as soon as it is finacially possible for me to do so.

Goodbye!

honestly you guys- who decided that he should adhere to the basic rules of logic?

it seems that atheists im learning have more precondition and rules for engagement than theists- and they dont even agree on that-

do atheists think somehow that their suffering is more deeply felt and more important than say- the 1000s of documented hate crimes against muslims since 911-plus the over 3000 imprisoned for over 4 years under "secret evidence" languishing in jails as we speak without charge or trial- or the genocide of native americans- the enslavement and subsequent denial of the american dream to african americans- the the current treatment of illegal aliens trying to squeak out a living here in the us today-? i personally have suffered scenarios you wouldnt believe directly at the hands of my government- i dont treat people badly- dont feel i am justified ever in spreading vitriol - ripping others part-

and the justification is that the presidents father said something 20 years ago?

there are alot of real things to be "a bit harsh" about than a 20 year old remark- everyone has a story fellows- its the tolerance and maturity with which we deal with each other that matters-

but probably because youve been reasonable i felt free to express myself because frankly atheists are starting to really scare me.
peace and thanks for listening

i just wish people spent as much energy on trying to find solutions and heal the differences as they did in picking apart each other but i may be in the wrong place for such a desire.

Oops, I did it again. The last post was mine.

Victoria writes, "honestly if this is the best atheists have to offer as an example of their superiority- i am quickly becoming disenchanted with their downright bad manners"

Perhaps but consider that if atheists are a bit harsh, it may because we are on a regular basis subjected to this sort of pious claim:

George H. W. Bush, Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

By the way, the elder Bush has had many chances to elaborate, qualify, or repudiate this quote, and he has refused to do so. Evidently he fails that atheists do not even qualify as second-class citizens.

As for the Pastor, I consider it bad manners for him to only include the part of Russell's thought that seems to support his thesis. The context is that Russell concluded that questions about the "purpose" of life have about as much meaning as questions about the batting average of a tomato. That puts a rather different spin on things, and undermines completely the Pastor's appeal to this particular authority -- not to mention the rigor of his argument.

I believe in God and you Pastor Dukes. Keep spreading the " Truth ". There is many behind you. Just keep doing God's work. He only one you follower.

Reality Check,

I am not presumptuous enough to speak for everyone; I speak for myself and presumably for those who insist on objective evidence for the existence of god. You still haven't provided any.

I don't think it's necessary to be creative and quote from my favorite former christian because that won't advance the conversation a bit.

Victoria,

The expectation is not that the pastor frame things from the atheist's perspective. To demand that of him would be logically and rhetorically unfair. However, he is expected to adhere to the rules of basic logic. The pastor's post is the most ignorant, least logical thing I've read in a while.

Similarly, nobody here has told christian panelists how to think. If there is one overarching concern with religionists, it is their utter lack of objectively verifiable evidence for their claims. Anyone who makes such serious claims in the public square deserves all the ridicule reserved for alchemists and believers in Thor.

it is becoming more apparent to me and is simply amazing that many many atheists (the ones that respond to christian posts) seem to feel they have some authority to tell panelists how to think-
what "tools" they are deficient in- the critiques seem just as emotionally driven as any believers responses- the reverend didnt attack atheists here-
i came on this site with little experience with atheists as a forum- ive had plenty of atheists friends-but we were all in agreement on environmental and some political issues- and my personal experiences have been of considerate polite people- i could never imagine my friends speaking so
well- petulantly.

honestly if this is the best atheists have to offer as an example of their superiority- i am quickly becoming disenchanted with their downright bad manners-

at least christians believe that one should examine the plank in ones own eye before trying to remove the splinter from their brothers eye.

im not a christian but i respect them- atheists too- actually anyone who has consideration for others-

ps i thought what he said about belief was interesting- if you come to a christian post- you should have some intelligence to understand that it is not an atheist perspective and to expect him to frame things in atheists perspective is really
not reasonable- i thought reason was one of the values respected by atheists- so walk your talk atheists.

Not to jump on a dogpile here but this colum is a good example of why "productive conversation between believers and atheists" is so difficult to achieve.

C'mon Edward. Are you speaking for everyone reading this thread now? Why don't you be creative and quote your favorite former Christian? Or better yet, comment on the content of the quote.

Best wishes.

Dear Jude:

You wrote, "What you all do not seem to understand is that this man is a man of God, and a Pastor and should be respected, just as if he were the president of the United States...."

I agree with Edward that all humans should be respected as a matter of principle based on their humanity. Beyond that, respect is something that is earned not given.

I once respected a minister who later was found to have molested many of the children in his flock (fortunately I was not one of them). I grew up a few blocks away from the People's Temple in San Francisco. Many people in my neighborhood perished when led to Guyana by Jim Jones, another alleged man of God. I once dated a woman whose family grew up Catholic in Fall River, MA. Can someone say, "Father Porter?"

Simply following the words of a religious leader blindly by virtue of his or her title is at best, ignorant and at worst, dangerous. All of our so-called leaders must prove worthy of respect by their reasoning and decisionmaking. Respect is earned not given.

Reality Check,

Do not invite us to read Mere Christianity; some of us have already read it. What we ask of you is some objective evidence for you god. Can you provide that? We are waiting.

I want to share a quote from my favorite former atheist and invite you to read his book "Mere Christianity"

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning. - C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

"To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

If you insist upon disbelief in God, what you must say is, "Having the limited knowledge I have at present, I believe that there is no God." Owing to a lack of knowledge on your part, you don't know if God exists. So, in the strict sense of the word, you cannot be an atheist. The only true qualifier for the title is the One who has absolute knowledge, and why on earth would God want to deny His own existence?

The professing atheist is what is commonly known as an "agnostic" - one who claims he "doesn't know" if God exists. It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus." The Bible tells us that this ignorance is "willful" (Psalm 10:4). It's not that a person can't find God, but that he won't. It has been rightly said that the "atheist" can't find God for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman. He knows that if he admits that there is a God, he is admitting that he is ultimately responsible to Him. This is not a pleasant thought for some.

It is said that Mussolini (the Italian dictator), once stood on a pinnacle and cried, "God, if you are there, strike me dead!" When God didn't immediately bow to his dictates, Mussolini then concluded that there was no God. However, his prayer was answered some time later."

Excerpted from God Doesn't Believe in Atheists by Ray Comfort.

How about this..? "Seeing is believing -- if I can't see God, why should I believe in Him?"
"So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? Have you ever seen your brain? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments? Etc."

From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. - Romans 1:20 (NLT)

Wow, just wow.

I know a lot of people dont necessarily think in a truly logical mindset and whatever, but there cant be many people that could read this and actually agree with any of it. Its borderline nonsensical. Just random statements with nothing to back it up and view of things that borders on what you'd expect from pre-schoolers. Honestly, and all trolling aside, I have to question your mental proficency based on what I'm reading here.

Also, the pure ... stupidity ... of the very first line is amazing.

"If atheism is popular, it’s probably because it is more fashionable to be different."

Err, hate to break this to you, but there have always been people that didn't believe in the religion of whichever current era they were in, it's the religions themselves that have changed through out the times. Atheism is the one thing that has been constant while the religious viewpoint constantly shifted between deities.

You won't believe me when I tell you this, but given your (our apparent) 'need to believe things', if you were born a thousand years ago or so you would probably be defending Thor, or on your very same birthday but raised in the Middle East, Allah.

Atheism does not necessarily mean "believes nothing".

It means "does not believe in a man in the sky who has nothing better to do than pay attention to whether you spend your life guessing correctly which form of grovelling he prefers".

I believe plenty of things. Mostly I believe that we as a society are struggling with the question of just how we are going to enforce moral codes without using curses and superstition and a deity who is always watching and always knows if you've been naughty or nice. Well, it seems to me that people who are inclined to be moral will continue to do so after superstition has gone the way of bloodletting and leeches, while those who aren't moral do not appear to be at all deterred by God. They never have been.

It's fascinating to see in these panelists all the different ways in which theists conceptualize non-believers.

It goes without saying that they can't see that we are simply regular people who don't happen have religious beliefs.

No no: we are like, atheists because we are trying to be hip, hate god, are young and brash, or maybe we're old and bitter, or maybe we just really believe in god after all but want to annoy believers.

In the end it comes down to a bunch of bizarre schoolyard name-calling.

And if we object to it: geez, so uppity!

If I believe what I read in the newspaper (which I often do not, by the way) it is because I have found certain kinds of information in newspapers to be reliable. If I believe what scientists tell me, it is because I am able to confirm the basic facts of science for myself.

Religious people have repeatedly made outrageously wrong statements, claimed to have healed people who nonetheless remain sick, rationalize their inconsistencies with bizarre double talk, and expect to be believed when they make statements that no human being could possibly know to be true about an afterlife for which there is nothing but wishful thinking. If it were to be worth listening to, it would have to be reliable.

We over-apply what Dawkins calls the intentional stance. That lapse of reason may be built into us, but that is not evidence that it is right. We naturally crave sugar, fat and salt, but that doesn't make it healthy.

Pastor Dukes offers yet another data point supporting the hypothesis that religion destroys one's ability to think rationally and argue logically. Only a Christian would so proudly display such linguistic, philosophical and scientific ignorance.

No, Pastor Dukes, we do *not* have much in common: I have both the ability and desire to think sensibly, logically and rationally; you apparently lack one or both. Without the common foundation of sensibility, logic and intellectual integrity, we do not even have the *ability* to talk. And I do not have the desire to continue to fruitlessly vibrate the air in your vicinity.

Thanks, Mr, Mark, for responding to my first post.

Maybe you missed "with over 70 ministries providing support in their community for prisoners, unwed mothers, GED classes, etc, etc, etc..."

Are those being ministered to part of "A closed loop is a closed loop"?

And please answer: "Where have you been lately?"

Best wishes.

Jude said:

What you all do not seem to understand is that this man is a man of God, and a Pastor and should be respected, just as if he were the president of the United States...

That perpective is laughable, is she really saying that every Pastor should be respected simply because they claim to be a man of god?

I wonder if she repects Ted Haggart, Jimmy Swaggart, or the pastors of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Reality check wrote:

"Mr. Mark wrote:

"I think the reverend needs to get out more."

Pastor Duke's church has over 5,000 members with over 70 ministries providing support in their community for prisoners, unwed mothers, GED classes, etc, etc, etc...

Where have you been lately?"

Thanks for making my point. A closed loop is a closed loop, whether that loop consists of 5 people or 5,000.

The Rev does need to get out more - more into science, philosophy and logic than his present beliefs allow.

Warp10:
You wrote:
I think you owe the readers here a REAL citation for the quote you give by Bertrand Russell?
"Unless you assume a God, the question of life’s purpose is meaningless.”

You, the pastor, and all the Christian sites are misunderstanding Bertrand Russel. Parse the sentence carefully.

He's saying that if one doesn't assume that a god exists, there's no point in even talking about the "purpose" of life. The question of purpose has no meaning.

On another thread, a poster said that rainbows were proof of God. When I pointed him to a Web site that explained why we see rainbows, he said that he understood all that - but what was their *purpose*.

Left me quite flabbergasted. When you don't believe in God, you simply don't think in those terms - and that is what B.R. was trying to say.

Of course the Christian Web sites would try to make something else of it. If he'd wanted to say what they're implying, he would have phrased it, "Unless you assume a God, life is meaningless.”

This isn't the exact quote, but it does address the question. To put simply, life in the Godless universe does not have a purpose; but you can give YOUR life one.

Bertrand Russell, from "What is an Agnostic"

What is the meaning of life to the agnostic?

I feel inclined to answer by another question: What is the meaning of `the meaning of life'? I suppose what is intended is some general purpose. I do not think that life in general has any purpose. It just happened. But individual human beings have purposes, and there is nothing in agnosticism to cause them to abandon these purposes. They cannot, of course, be certain of achieving the results at which they aim; but you would think ill of a soldier who refused to fight unless victory was certain. The person who needs religion to bolster up his own purposes is a timorous person, and I cannot think as well of him as of the man who takes his chances, while admitting that defeat is not impossible.

Warp10

I believe I can answer your questions about the Bertrand Russell quote:

It is not made up and is not taken out of context. In fact, you can see a picture of it in Bertrand Russell's own handwriting in the book "The Meaning of Life" compiled by Dr. Hugh S. Morehead, former Dean of Department of
Philosophy at Northeastern Illinois University (Chicago Review Press 1969, reprinted 1988).

Also, Bertrand Russell writes in his book “The History of Western Philosophy” that there are two perspectives for viewing the world. Teleological, which asks “For what purpose is a thing made?” And mechanistic, which seeks cause and effect. When we look around us, we see things which are made by men for a certain purpose. All manmade things are designed for a purpose, like your car or computer. This is why we have a habit of looking for the purpose of things. Even when it comes to the universe and life itself, we always wonder about their purpose. According to Russell, this is not a correct way of thinking, because the universe and the life it contains are not created for a purpose, they have evolved randomly. In this context, there is no purpose to life only random events (unless, of course, you believe in God).

Hope this helps in your search.

Dear Pastor Dukes,
How can we delicately tell you that you are the least impressive person to appear in this forum. You are, in fact, very much an embarrassment to your fellow believers, but actually par for the course for uninformed believers in general.
To actually state that science is "based more on belief than we care to admit" is a clear sign that you don't know what you are talking about and are used to preaching to the choir rather than to the good folks you are meeting sites such as this.
My suggestion to you is that if you want to put yourself out there in these kinds of fora, you ought to do a little reading and prep yourself. I'm sure you don't do much reading, so let me suggest a very short, concise, pamphlet titled " A Letter To A Christian Nation" as a starter. In the mean time, we don't suffer fools gladly. Sorry pal.

Mr. Dukes

I hope you took my request to show a real citation for the Bertrand Russell quote seriously.

Respectfully yours,

Warp10

Ted

What is the "valid point" in the pastor's post? Saying he has a valid point isn't the same as providing evidence for it. Second, can't you see the distinction between believing/trusting that your deposit is in the bank and believing in god?

You still have not addressed the issue of how you determined some posters' motives. Again, can you provide some evidence? That's all we ask.

Edward

well the think the good reverend is dealing with our common mannerism of trusting and believing. Aside for what others have posted - and do respect their opinions - I do think Mr. Dukes has a valid point when he talks about our basic "mode of operation" - that we actually function more as "believers" in a global system of trusts.

dorothy, we're not in Kansas anymore.

I am sure that the reverend is a very nice man. I would love to have a beer with him and George Bush.

but I agree with Ashley and Edward: his post was the most unbelievably illogical I have read _ having missed Cal Thomas.

Dorothy. if someone posts on this adult discussion, her arguments are open to comment. While normal human respect is usual, illogical and harebrained arguments should be plainly identified as such.

Ted,

How does the pastor's "premise...deal with the basis of our beliefs"? Instead of providing evidence for your claim, you go off tangent on the motives of some posters. How do you know the motives of other posters? Kindly share this peculiar insight you seem to have.

I read Mr. Dukes article and actually it's not too bad. I am not a right winger or religious fanatic - but a well educated individual. The premise of his argument seems to deal with the basis of our beliefs...upon a second reading the post seems to make some valid points. I think some of us use this forum - not to learn -but to flex our intellectual muscles some times to the point were we are being pretty obnoxious.

I don't understand this column at all. All of the assumptions are illogical.

However, back to the question:

"Atheism is enjoying a certain vogue right now. Why do you think that is? Can there be a productive conversation between believers and atheists, and if so over what kinds of issues?"

Here's my response:

I don't think "vogue" is accurate; perhaps "on the rise," is more to the point.

The reasons are:

We are better educated.

Science is more easily available to greater numbers of educated people.

Religions offer no real indications of any emerging (global) future; in fact, they only create more violence and cultural fragmentation.

The Bush Administration's abuse of "faith based politics" to advance a radical right agenda, which has created global distaster and meanaces the Constitution.

We are a secular democracy and we all know that.

Important thinkers who oppose irrationalism in the public sector are publishing and speaking to the issue.

Finally, we don't need to be "atheist" to hold any of these views. If there is no God, there can be no "atheist". The burden of proof is always on the "believer," regardless of the belief.

No, there cannot be a productive conversation between people who insist upon irrational beliefs, and those who don't. That is why we have the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Thank you.

Hey Jude,

I did not see your post earlier;

You appear to be sincere and have a good heart; so I will apologize for being too harsh above.
Your tone had reminded me of a poster named Canyan who was very insulting -- again that was not your fault. )

Question:

If you think Bush is a man of God, how do you reconcile the fact that he may be wrong?

You didn't answer how Bush missed the WMD question?

Do you think everyone should just obey him in increasing troops in Iraq -- even though our top military specialists say it will just kill and maim more of our troops?

How can a democracy co-exist with a theocracy?

Have you ever read the history of Christianity -- including the old belief in the divine right of Kings?

Cheers!

Dorothy,

There is nothing "gentle" in the pastor's suggestion that atheism is intellectually incoherent. His post is so full of logical errors that indifference to them is equivalent to indifference to the truth.

Faith does not threaten me (I can only speak for myself) in any way because it is nothing and nothing is inherently incapable of threatening me. What you call "vehemence" is astonishment at the basket of logical errors in one post from a man many adults look up to.

Why do the blindly religious use CAPS? It may be because of their dogmatism. CAPS is a kind of shouting, aimed at drowning out reason and inconvenient alternative propositions.

Mr. Dukes,

I think you owe the readers here a REAL citation for the quote you give by Bertrand Russell?
"Unless you assume a God, the question of life’s purpose is meaningless.”

I tried to look this quote up on the internet -- but was primarily getting Christian sources that just repeated it.

The original source appears to be from a Christian named Rick Warren who used it in his book "The Purpose Driven Life – What on Earth Am I here for?" based on an interview on the O'Reilly Factor.

Now the nature of this doesn't give me a high level of confidence that

-- this wasn't something taken out of context; else
--taken during a much earlier period in Russell's life (which would still be a distortion, if not fully explained as such.)

Here is what Wikipedia gives as a more typical quote by Bertrand Russell.

"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. […] A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men.

—Bertrand Russell, Why I Am Not a Christian and Other Essays on Religion and Related Subjects

--------------------------

You can see from the above why your quote doesn't ring "true" about Bertrand Russell.

Which is why you need to verify the citation for us, for it to be credible.

Thank you.

To Edward Smith:

>>I think Jude was being sarcastic>>

Nope. He's got several clones running around too.

These guys are scary. Perhaps they believe in the divine right of Kings too (with Bush as divine King of course.)

I am amazed by the vehemence of these reponses to Pastor Dukes' gentle explanation for his faith. Does such a faith threaten you in some way?

Bone, or B'Gone or whoever you are:
Hoaxbusters preaches to the choir as fervently as any church-sponsored site. Give it a rest.

Theodore:
Why is it that so many of the blindly religious have their keyboards stuck on ALL CAPS?

Mr. Dukes, you have shattered my belief. I believed that no panelist could possibly post something more ignorant and poorly considered than Cal Thomas, but you did. Kudos.

Point-by-point, and my apologies if I'm repeating other posters:

You say if atheism is popular, it's because it's fashionable to be different. Then you say atheism isn't popular. Don't you realize that makes that entire paragraph pointless? Why not just say there aren't many atheists, which is true. You then might point out that popularity is not an effective means of determining what is true.

Your next paragraph, that belief is a "basic tenet of humanity" is pure semantic games. Belief in a supreme goddess for which there is no evidence is not the same as belief that, for instance, the money I deposited is still in the bank. I have evidence that the money I deposit is in the bank, because I am able to check my balance and withdraw the money.

From here on your column degenerates to complete inanity. "We couldn't go to the moon if someone had not believed." We went to the moon because of a sophisticated scientific understanding of aerodynamics, propulsion, gravity, electromagnetics, human physiology, and computing. Try opening a science book sometime, Lyle! You might be shocked to find out that unlike your bible, they don't just contain hymns, chants, and bronze-age fairy tales. They contain facts along with theories which organize these facts, build upon them, and allow us to synthesize new theories and technologies. Do you think all those guys in Mission Control were using their consoles to send electronic prayers to the gods of space travel?

Denying the existence of gods is nothing like waking up and denying the existence of other countries. I can see other countries on television; I meet people from those countries; I can book a ticket to travel there; I can read multiple, independent sources of information about them.

Instead, denying the existence of gods is exactly like denying the existence of invisible magical flying hole-punchers. You can't disprove their existence, but neither you or I believe in them because there is no evidence for their existence.

Finally, you can stuff your opinion of what is vital for my existence. You can call yourself a pastor, imam, medicine man, or the bishop of rock; the truth is that you are feeling your way through life just like everyone else. You don't possess any magical insights denied to the rest of us, and you certainly have no specialized knowledge concerning human behavior. Worry about your own life; I'll worry about mine.

Mr. Mark wrote:

"I think the reverend needs to get out more."

Pastor Duke's church has over 5,000 members with over 70 ministries providing support in their community for prisoners, unwed mothers, GED classes, etc, etc, etc...

Where have you been lately?

Jude,

Praying for us is not the same thing as providing objective evidence for god's existence.

Second, the supposed benefits of Christianity means nothing about the truth of its claims. I also know the benefits and downsides of being a Christian; I was one for 30 years and read the Bible cover to cover several times. I still read it and, ironically, it is the best argument for atheism.

Third, views deserve respect only if they are true or open to falsification. Those upholding silly beliefs deserve respect because they are human beings and not because of their views.

Finally, where is the objective evidence for god's existence? We are still waiting.

Since somebody above demanded that we respect all of the men of God, I can't help replying that I would have more respect for this one if he had written his essay in grammatically correct English and if he had not grossly misrepresented the views of Bertrand Russell.

Very true, being in any from of leadership does not give you the title to be corrected, because I believe that the KKK is wrong, and I do not always agree with the President, although you all may think that this man of GOD is incorrect, you must still respect him, my feedback was not directed to any of those that responed after Edward and I, cleared everything out. I belive in this man, because being an atheist is not beleiving in the man that died for us, to save us from sin... I am leaving this segment, but before I do, all I was saying is RESPECT his views,

But I can tell you that I know God, is real! And the benefits of being a Christian are amazing. Wehn you command a blessing in the name of Jesus, the blessing comes to pass. When you operate in the manifestations of God's presence, you are blessed! When you pay your tithes and offerings, money is given back to you in good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over! I am not here to convince you on why my God is real, all I know is that he is real.. I am still spiritually growing, that is why I have a leader and a church home in Baltimore, and my leader is spiritually mature to grab people into the covering of God, that is not my mission right now. He is ordained to do of such, one day I will be at that level, but at this very moment I am not. The listed facts above are only some of the reasons why I know my God is real... I just pray that you all will open up your hearts to listen, because he is real.

God is using Lyle Dukes to minister, and spread his word. With that said, I leave this blog by saying...

Dear God,
Open up the minds and hearts of those that do not beleive in your amazing powers. Have mercy on them for they have no idea what they do when they bash a man of God, and discredit you for your works. God continue to bless the man of God, Pator Lyle Dukes and his entire church home. Use him in a special way. Cover him with your blood. Carry on your mission through him, because he is doing an amazing job. Bless him continuosly. In Jesus name - Amen.

You know, it's too bad that there have been three truly ignorant essays posted to this question: the three by an African-American, an Hispanic, and a politcal right-winger.

The belief in unseen scientific phenomena is based on the fact that these models make predictions that can be reproducibly observed. I have never seen an electron, but in freshman physics labs it is common to set up experiments where they make their existence known in predictable ways. In my laboratory we manipulate DNA and get predictable and reproducible results pretty much every day. To compare this kind of "unseen" with the unseen that is YHWH, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the argument of a child.

So, does religion make a prediction? Often. But it is best if the predictions are made before the facts they predict. It is quite clear that the New Testament was written in a way to force agreement with Old Testament prophecies, even if it led to contradictions in the text about such details as the geneology of Jesus or the circumstances of his early life. Those "predictions" will not convince anybody. There is one prospective prediction in the New Testament that immediately comes to mind, in Mark: "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power."

I guess that didn't happen. Oh well. Too bad.

FAITH!

Jude, though Edward's language might have been a little harsh, the basic thrust of his point is completely valid. If you wish to engage in a rational discourse of the issues of religion and atheism, then when you post an essay like this, an essay that amounts to being only to a series of logical fallacies or utterly vacuous statements, then you cannot expect to be taken seriously.

Respect is earned. There is nothing about being a pastor or being President that gives your words any intrinsic merit. Holding either title doesn't and shouldn't protect you from having your ideas criticized. If your ideas bely a lacking education in critical thinking and logical argument, then you have only yourself to blame when you're called on that deficiency when you inject yourself into a debate.

Genesis from California,

Aren't you concerned about the lack of evidence for your assertions?

"This man is spreading the truth...."

Quid veritas est?

"The devil cannot stop God's plan...."

Prove to us that there is a devil and a God. Just provide any objective evidence. That's all we ask.

Can you do that?

To Jude:

Any respect beyond respect for basic human rights has to be earned. It isn't a right you are entitled to simply based on the number of people you convince to fall in line behind your ideas.

With that logic, you could say that the Grand Wizard for the KKK deserves resepct for leading his followers and doesn't need to learn how to "just get along" or something like that.

This Pastor guy is using some sort of twisted logic. It is my belief that only those who already believe in God will be convinced by his hollow "arguments."

We are not all ateheist on the internet! I am a Christian, and I do not beleive that "his column appears to grow directly out of an insulated lifestyle and world view". This man is spreading the truth, and no devil in hell can stop the words from on high! The devil cannot stop God's plan, and everything that the devil is planning to do, I rebuke it in the name of Jesus Christ! and when you say the name of Jesus, demons shal flee, and tremble! I cast the devil into the lake of fire, in which he belongs, open up the eyes and hearts of these that are confused, forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do! You died and rose again to save their souls. YOU ARE THE WAY AND THE TRUTH OF THE WORLD!

Jude,

I respect human beings as human beings. I do not respect men of god qua men of god.

However, thank you for the clarification. I thought you were being sarcastic since I found it hard to believe that anyone would seriously urge the insulation of another person from criticism just because the person claims to know the mind of and speak for a fairy.

Actually I was not being sarcastic, I was letting you all see that this is a man of GOD... point blank, and that you should respect him, as should you any leader, I am not saying you have to beleive him, but you should respect him. It is disrespectfu, to suggest that a pastor takes a course on logic, and bash his congregation...

With that said I do belive every word that he is saying!

Edward in Manhattan nails it.

I think the reverend needs to get out more. His column appears to grow directly out of an insulated lifestyle and world view. Certainly, he won't find the automatic deference and "respect" his professional title garners at his usual watering holes when posting in a public forum like this. No, his opinion has to go up against those of people who understand the power of words and know that strawmen are the easiest things to shoot down in the world.

GIGO at its finest.

When it comes to the internet, we're all atheists...or at least, Missourians.

PASTOR DUKES, IS TRUE IN EVERYWAY POSSIBLE! I WOULD LOVE TO ATTEND HIS CHURCH, I CAN TELL THAT HE IS FOLLOWING HIS GOD-GIVEN MISSION...IT IS OBVIOUS THAT HE IS A POWERFUL MAN OF GOD!!! ANYONE TALKING DOWN ON A MAN OF GOD, SHOULD BE ASHAMED AND SHOULD WATCH OUT, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT MESS WITH GOD'S ANNOINTED! HIS CHURCH OBVIOUSLY, READING THE DESCRIPTION HAD ADVANCED IN ALMOST EVRY WAY POSSIBLE! I PRAY THAT GOD CONTINUES TO BLESS PASTOR LYE DUKES, AND HIS CHURCH... BECAUSE I KNOW AND BELIEVE THAT HE IS BEING USED BY GOD, AND YOUR NEGATIVE COMMENTS ARE JUST TOOLS FROM THE DEVIL, TO TRY TO STOP HIM! BUT HE WILL SUCCEED, AND WILL BE BLESSED FOR HIS AMAZING LEADERSHIP, AND I ALSO KNOW THAT HIS MEMBERS ARE BLESSED TO HAVE SUCH A WORD RENOUND SPEAKER AS THEIR PASTOR AND I KNOW THEY APPRECIATE HIM IN EVERY WAY! GOD BLESS YOU PASTOR DUKES!

Warp10,

I think Jude was being sarcastic.

To Jude:

""What you all do not seem to understand is that this man is a man of God, and a Pastor and should be respected, just as if he were the president of the United States""

Same as the president of the US?

--Does that mean we are supposed to believe there were WMD in Iraq that was a threat to the US?

-- That privatizing Social Security was really for the benefit of Amercican retirees?

--That global warming is just a hoax by climatologists wanting a job?

-- huge trillion dollar deficits don't matter?

Such a fantasy world you live in.

Your post is best summed up as "tiz better to believe in something than nothing."

But notice its basis is predicated on an unproven assumption: "belief" is always better:

--What if nothing is the real truth?
--What if belief in nothing does less harm than believing false beliefs?

Not to mention I DO believe in something -- it is just not predicated on belief in a deity.

You have no answers to the above because you have not even tried to explore any real truths outside your own sandbox.

There is a famous adage with the Computer called Garbage In: Garbage Out.

Meaning no matter how you brilliant is your logic and reason, if such reasoning is based on false premises (input) you will get a false conclusion (output.)

Your logic is based on false inputs ("assumptions" on belief), therefore it is worthless.

(Nothing personal. I am just asking you to explore your own biases in your assumptions.)

Cheers.

I am a theist but I find the assumptions of this piece egregious and the argument untenable.

What you all do not seem to understand is that this man is a man of God, and a Pastor and should be respected, just as if he were the president of the United States, I do not believe that he needs any courses, his words are powerful, and ordained by the one and only living God, which is in Christ Jesus! So, instead of suggesting a course for him, try to take a course from him.

pastor, i hope you don't mean this as a serious response to the discussion on atheism that's current on these boards.

why is it that you, like most christians, just INSIST that atheism is another religion, much like your own? it's fascinating to watch. well, as a wit observed, if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

preacher, get your head around this: your god and his offspring have the exact same right to 'respect' as do the gods of ancient egypt. i know that's a bit of shock to your tax-exempt system, but get over it. atheism is a rejection of religion as you know it, not a substitute.

Easy on the reverand Edward. His church makes more sense than most from what I can tell. It's entertainment and worth attending no matter. You do know the Bible is a proved hoax? His kind of church can survive that in a breeze.

I'll bet he understands http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul So do his contemporaries. Whatever will they do?

1. Faith begins with faith the Bible is God's word.
2. Faith in the unreadable Bible transfers the faith to the minister to read it.
3. Any left over faith can be splattered on God like mustard on a hot dog.

I have to agree with Edward Smith above; Pastor Dukes seems to be equating the confident, if qualified, fact based conclusions of science with the blind unthinking faith of religious certainty.

Not the same things at all...

Pastor, if this post is indicative of your proficiency if logic, I pity you and your congregation. There are too many logical errors in your post. Here are some of them.

1. "If atheism is popular, it’s probably because it is more fashionable to be different."

How do you know that it is more fashionable to be different? Have you excluded alternative explanations for the putative popularity of atheism since without such exclusions, the probabilistic consequent you state is baseless.

2. "But in reality - there are not many true atheists."

How do you know that? Where is the evidence for that statement? This is a public forum; you can't just state things like that dogmatically without backing them up. The claim is nothing but a faith-based assertion.

3. "One of the basic tenets of humanity is that we must believe something"

Yes, I believe Paris is in France. The question is not whether we must believe something but whether the belief must be backed up with evidence or not. Science provides evidence for its certain and probabilistic claims; as for religion, Kierkegaard's "leap of faith" answers the question about religion's utter lack of evidence.

Your conflation of categories - belief and trust - is simply astounding and egregiously silly. If I were a member of your Church, I'd be embarrassed by this piece.

4. "To not believe would be simply insane."

Insanity is believing in something without evidence.

Pastor, you need a course in philosophy especially in logic. If you a leader of men and women, I pity them. And if this post is representative of your thinking, then anybody who cares about the truth ought to be very angry that adults listen to you and possibly take you seriously.

There are many more faults in your piece but I don't know whether it's worth it to tackle all of them.