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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

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One cause of death was especially increased. Among men, those who took sleeping pills 30 times a month had 7 times the risk of suicide! WBR LeoP

Thank you Pastor Dukes for your transparent testimony of how Jesus changed your life. Jesus is real!! Your testimony blessed me and reaffirmed what I know to be the reason for the transformation of my own life, and that is my enccounter with Jesus. God bless!

Sorry guys. I posted that comment three times. My computer had an error message that my comment was not posting. I accidentally posted it too many times.

Thank you Pastor Dukes

Jesus is very real. I also pray for those who do not believe that Jesus is real. They really need help. I feel like crying because people just want to be mean and do thier own thing. Even though I did not go to church all of my life, I am a strong believer in Jesus Christ. People do not want anyone to lead them. They have also been brought up to believe in no one but themselves. They feel as though the do not have to answer to anyone. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I know for sure that I would not be here. I have been through so much from the time I was a little girl, by being molested, guns were drawn on my mother and I, as a young adult people have robbed me. Not to mention what was put into my life as a little girl made me the crazy teenager that I was (men in general). I could have been dead from AIDS or some typ of desease. I thank God that I did not get AIDS. Atheist cannot tell me that Jesus did not die on the cross for our sins. I am a living testimony because through all of that, I am still here with the miracle of no desease, I am not dead. God has been the good example of the father that people should have. As I tell my children and my nieces and nephews, God held them and loved them before they were in their mother's womb. I held them and watched their smiling faces after they have come from their mother's womb. Pastor Dukes and any christian can is the messenger. Don't criticize them for what they are doing. It is up to you to take it or believe it. I chose to believe. Because God is my father. I love him dearly. I do not care what any of you say. Pastor Dukes, I am with you. You and Co-Pastor, keep on working for the Lord. I know that what you tell the people is coming from the annointing of God! You are true prophets and you do not have to argue. You know the true and living God. Love ya! Angeldove.

Thank you Pastor Dukes

Jesus is very real. I also pray for those who do not believe that Jesus is real. They really need help. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I would not be here. I have been through so much from the time I was a little girl, by being molested, guns in my face, as a young adult people have robbed me. Not to mention what was put into my life as a little girl made me the crazy teenager that I was. I could have been dead from deseases. Anonymous cannot tell me there is no God or no Jesus. I am a living testimony because through all of that, I am still here with the miracle of no desease, I am not dead. Pastor Dukes, I am with you. You and Co-Pastor, keep on working for the Lord. I know that what you tell the people is coming from the annointing of God!

Thank you Pastor Dukes

Jesus is very real. I also pray for those who do not believe that Jesus is real. They really need help. If it was not for Jesus Christ, I would not be here. I have been through so much from the time I was a little girl, by being molested, guns in my face, as a young adult people have robbed me. Not to mention what was put into my life as a little girl made me the crazy teenager that I was. I could have been dead from deseases. Anonymous cannot tell me there is no God or no Jesus. I am a living testimony because through all of that, I am still here with the miracle of no desease, I am not dead. Pastor Dukes, I am with you. You and Co-Pastor, keep on working for the Lord. I know that what you tell the people is coming from the annointing of God!

Hi, Ann Coress,

Like you I keep getting called away. I just found your last post (sounds like the British bugle call, "The Last Post," doesn't it?). Fortunately for your Aunt and me your post wasn't funereal.I appreciate your kind thoughts.

I'd love it if someone would start a thread about the endemic medical malpractice in the area of Lyme Disease. That would get me more riled up and fired up than any of these religious discussions, though they have somewhat the same effect on me, but to a lesser degree.

If you're interested in that topic just google "The Lyme Wars." One big cheese of a Lyme researcher at Harvard who says that Lyme really doesn't amount to much of anything has to hire bodyguards when he speaks in public because he has the Lyme sufferers so riled up. I won't join their lynch mob but I share their sentiments.

Again, thank you for your kind words and interesting posts. I hope your last post won't really be your last.

Hi Norrie.

My aunt in Cape Cod has Lyme Disease too. She contracted it years and years ago and it took many of those years to gain control of it with antibiotic assaults and careful diet. She's in her 80s now and still as salty as she ever was. I'll do what any other BibleThumper would. I'll pray for you...

And thanks for bringing the most promising Ann on this board into the posts (and using the proper name: Ann O Domini instead of Ann O Testudo or something)

Blessings to you and the other readers of this board in the coming New Year. May we enter into the joys and troubles of this world with a little less questioning mind and a greater heart of Love.

Sorry I'm so late posting. I am perpetually called away. (This time a friend has contracted MRSA) So this will be my last post. I'll still be reading, so please post interesting things.

Au Revoir.

Thank you Pastor Lyle Dukes for being transparent and blessing many with your life testimony. (At least a part of it). Though there may be some that won't admit it, you have made us take a closer look at ourselves, our innate actions, and our relationship with others and with GOD. I too was raised in several dysfunctional families. And through my belief in Christ and who HE is, and living out the word of GOD today, I am a transformed human being grounded on the foundational rock - Jesus Christ.

Thank you Pastor Dukes for your convictions and your obedience to the will of GOD.

cmwoods

Pastor Dukes,
as we mature in the natural and the spiritual, I must agree with your statement. We are apart of our environment, but if we have faith, that path can change in an instance. I've witnessed in several christians.
I also respect your comment on respect. We should respect other faiths and seek the similarities, not the differences. This nation and the international community for that matter could learn alot from each other. Especially, with faith and respect!

Thank you
Vonzell,
May God continue to bless you with the wisdom and the strength to share the "Good News."

PHAEDRUS writes:
It is extraordinarily unlikely that there is a god, based on the evidence. If god wishes to provide evidence of his/her existence, he/she knows where to find me.

Hi again, Phaedrus ==

I apologize for confusing you with Anonymous in my last post.

About evidence -- if the evidence you are seeking is a matter of experiencing purely empirical realities, then, of course, you're right, you'll not find God "out there among the stars". Not "God" in the classic Western sense. He isn't a three dimensional thing that is limited to one place. But interestingly I see that some scientists are now saying that there are points of matter -- whatever that means -- that can be present in more than one place at a time. Well, well, it seems some of the scientists are catching up to the medievals about such a possibility!

PHAEDRUS quotes Ann O.: Anne:
Strictly speaking in logical terms, an hypothetical proposition is in itself no different from the same statement for which evidence has been presented. So scientists do indeed start out with a proposition which either is established or not established. Either way, it's the same proposition.

Response: I am not sure what this statement actually means. Are you backing off of your critique that science is not that different from religion in terms of a tendency to begin with conclusions and go to premises? I cannot tell from this statement.

Ann O.: I'm using logical terminology to categorize hypotheses. A proposition is a statement which is either truth or false. A hypothesis is such a statement. It is only after experimentation that it is *known* to be true or false, but in either case the statement (the "proposition") is the same statement.

I don't think I said that all religion starts off with propositions that need proving. Mystical experience (if you can trust the mystics, and I trust some of them) are religious and need no proof because (the mystics claim) they are direct knowledge.

But I agree that some theologians start off with faith that there is a God and go on to try to prove that He exists on the ground of ordinary experience, such as our experience of the fact that there are things which come into and go out of existence.

There seem to be many, many different approaches to God. Some begin with purely natural knowledge, the kind that all of us have, some begin with special spiritual experiences that are incommunicable except through metaphors. Many approach God with no thought of whether or not their experiences are rational are not. (I get very suspicious of that approach -- once you abandon reason then anything follows.)

PHAEDRUS in response to my comment about scientists wanting to prove their hypotheses:

How cynical. That is not how Nobel prizes are won. Yes, scientists are competitive, at least most are. But, it is this competitiveness that forces one to follow along where the data leads, because you will be ripped to shreds by your peers if you do not. As for Galileo, the only dishonesty I am aware of in his science is that which he chose to express under pain of inquisition. Which of course leads back to my original thesis that, on balance, religion is the enemy of rational thought.

ANN O.: Not cynical, just aware that scientists are only human too. And, yes, being ripped apart when their science is no good does motivate them to watch their p's and q's (and especially their if's, then's and therefore's). I don't fault them for any of this. And I must say that the best scientists I've know are also highly movtivated by their search for empirical truth. They're just as complex as anyone.

By the way, I'm named after a scientist -- who was an atheist, and I'm grateful that I don't come from people who are out to get the @#$#$@ non-believers. On the other hand, having a couple of apparently very good scientists in my family, neither do I stand in awe of them.

Ann O.

ANONYMOUS writes:
And by the way, I note that you respond to bits and pieces of my post, but fail to answer the question I posed to you about the basis of your personal beliefs. You have mentioned "evidence" for the existence of god, and I am eager to hear it

Ann responds: Oh, dear. Sorry about that. I went into that in another post.

There are several sorts of evidence that impress me. I'm an old philosophy teacher and I find the ARistotelian proof for an Unmoved Mover (the agent/final cause of the changes in this world) to be quite persuasive. It doesn't prove everything that's included in the classic Western definition of God (God as Creator of *everything* including matter) but it's a great beginning. Duns Scotus' highly elaborate proof for the existence of God including the aforementioned attributes includues some insights which show me that the world of changing things simply cannot account for their own existence, for things coming to be which didn't exist before, so there must be something outside of the series of beings-which-come-into-existence which itself is the cause of the changing things in the series. Even if there were an infinite series of changing things they alone could not account for how they come into existence.

Also, there is what I call my aesthetic intuition of God as the best explanation of why things are as they are -- He is the last piece of the great jig-saw puzzle, He is what makes things "fit". This is not a proof, but, rather, is just the best explanation of how things are and why man, especially, behaves as he does.

Perhaps most important, my faith in God includes the fact of His grace, the spiritual energy which I find available to me when I need strength to do what I know ought to be done, or to do what would be a good thing when I am not at all inclined to do it. I don't know how to describe it other than like physical energy, only it's not physical. This is available to me in the privacy of my own spirit, so I can't show you anything like it. But it is as real as the color red is on a sensory level. It's a given. Add to that, there are many, many other people who describe similar experiences, and they corroborate my own.

So when I hear atheists say "there is no evidence that God exists" all I can say is, Oh, yes, there is indeed a great deal of evidence. Not all of it is scientific proof. But, when you look philosophically at what counts as proofs on an empirical level, that isn't scientific proof in the strict sense either. There is actually very, very little that can be proven in the strictest sense of "proof".

So the evidence I find is largely a matter of probability, also a matter of insight into a best explanation of the world taken as a whole that I have found, plus my own direct experience of the spiritual energy which I can only assume comes from God. No, there is not much in the way of "proof" involved -- which is why it's called "faith". But I have found a great deal of evidence. Sort of like Tokyo or electriciay -- I can't prove they exist , but there is a great deal of evidence that they are real.

Ann O.

Anne O writes:

Anne: You call yourself an "atheist". ISTM the usual meaning of that word is "one who denies the existence of God", while an "agnostic" is one who, for lack of sufficient evidence either way neither affirms nor denies the existence of God. Given these two definitions, how would you classify yourself?

Response: I answered this already. Noting that there is no way to ever "prove" a negative, it comes down to a probability statement. As Dawkins would say, I am agnostic about god the same way that I am agnostic that there are fairies in my garden. This is not the same as those agnostics who imply that they cannot even make a probability statement about god, and therefore stay exactly in the middle, 50-50. It is extraordinarily unlikely that there is a god, based on the evidence. If god wishes to provide evidence of his/her existence, he/she knows where to find me.

Anne:
Strictly speaking in logical terms, an hypothetical proposition is in itself no different from the same statement for which evidence has been presented. So scientists do indeed start out with a proposition which either is established or not established. Either way, it's the same proposition.

Response: I am not sure what this statement actually means. Are you backing off of your critique that science is not that different from religion in terms of a tendency to begin with conclusions and go to premises? I cannot tell from this statement.

Ann O: Oh, come, now Anon. Do you *know* any scientists? They all want to prove their propostitions. That's the way they win Nobel prizes. And, yes, if they're *good* scientists they don't fudge their evidence. (Although I've read that even Galileo fudged some of his :-)
'
Response: How cynical. That is not how Nobel prizes are won. Yes, scientists are competitive, at least most are. But, it is this competitiveness that forces one to follow along where the data leads, because you will be ripped to shreds by your peers if you do not. As for Galileo, the only dishonesty I am aware of in his science is that which he chose to express under pain of inquisition. Which of course leads back to my original thesis that, on balance, religion is the enemy of rational thought.

And by the way, I note that you respond to bits and pieces of my post, but fail to answer the question I posed to you about the basis of your personal beliefs. You have mentioned "evidence" for the existence of god, and I am eager to hear it.

Oops! I said: ANN O.: You have changed the subject I was addressing. I didn't mention circumstances which disprove an hypothesis, and I certainly would agree that to hold on to a hypothesis in the face of compelling evidence is to have abandoned the scientific method.

That should have been "to hold on to a hypothesis in the face of compelling COUNTER-evidence is to have abandoned the scientific method.

Ann O.

Hi, Anonymous,

It seems that we began with a semantic problem. You call yourself an "atheist". ISTM the usual meaning of that word is "one who denies the existence of God", while an "agnostic" is one who, for lack of sufficient evidence either way neither affirms nor denies the existence of God. Given these two definitions, how would you classify yourself?

ANONYMOUS quotes Ann O.: Anne: "Many atheists make the child-like, uncritical assumption that this world is all there is."

Response: Again, my point is that of all the atheists I know, none of them arrived at this particular position due to being childlike or uncritical, in fact just the opposite.

Ann responds: I fear we don't know many of the same atheists :-) I this discussion I have been talkin only about those atheists (who deny the existence of God) who do so because they find no evidence for Him. And, yes, that is an uncritical assumption. Analogously, just because I find no convincing evidence that there are alternative worlds is not a good reason for denying that they exist. And, yes, that is quite childlike, quite naive.

ANONYMOUS quotes Ann O.: Anne: "By the way, trying to establish conclusions for which we already have some evidence is typical of science. Science observes, then forms a hypothesis (i.e., a conclusions to be established), and then it goes on to try through experimentation to establish that conclusion. So let's not have any more distractions about the looking for evidence for pre-conceived conclusions of one sort or another. We don't want to throw out science, do we?"

Response: Sheer nonsense I am afraid. Although any scientist is attached to his/her hypotheses, to hold onto them in the face of compelling contrary evidence is to have abandoned the scientific method itself.

ANN O.: You have changed the subject I was addressing. I didn't mention circumstances which disprove an hypothesis, and I certainly would agree that to hold on to a hypothesis in the face of compelling evidence is to have abandoned the scientific method.

Strictly speaking in logical terms, an hypothetical proposition is in itself no different from the same statement for which evidence has been presented. So scientists do indeed start out with a proposition which either is established or not established. Either way, it's the same proposition.

ANONYMOUS: The scientist who merely seeks evidence to support a pre-conceived notion is being a poor scientist at that point. This self-correcting feature is clearly absent in most monotheistic religions, else we would not have the "6,000 year old earth" etc.

Ann O: Oh, come, now Anon. Do you *know* any scientists? They all want to prove their propostitions. That's the way they win Nobel prizes. And, yes, if they're *good* scientists they don't fudge their evidence. (Although I've read that even Galileo fudged some of his :-)
'
ANONYMOUS: Response: You are (again) personalizing something when I made a general statement,

Ann O.: You sure fooled me.

Ann O.

Please pardon my not indicating that the previous post was mine.

Response to Anne O.

Thanks for your reply. A careful reading however, requires this response:

ANN O.: I do not think that atheism is another form of religion -- that would be utter nonsense. I do say that atheism is a form of fundamental belief -- the belief that there is no God, a belief founded on the judgmnet that if I have not experienced something or if I have not experienced evidence for it then it must not exist

Response: The point is that I would jettison this "belief" should sufficient evidence present itself. Perhaps we might have a bit of a disagreement about what constitutes "evidence," but that one will have to wait for another time. In the meantime, a question for you: Can you recall anything that you "believe" that is not based on what you refer to as having "experienced" or having "experienced evidence for?" I am not sure from your post whether you are criticising atheists for establishing their beliefs on these bases, or saying that you do likewise.

Anne: "Many atheists make the child-like, uncritical assumption that this world is all there is."

Response: Again, my point is that of all the atheists I know, none of them arrived at this particular position due to being childlike or uncritical, in fact just the opposite.

Anne: "However, when you say "there is not evidence" -- you are making a hasty generalization. Since you don't claim to know every possible reality, you cannot claim to know that there is *no* evidence for His existence."

Response: Perhaps there is "evidence" somewhere for leprechauns and unicorns, of which I am equally unaware. In this case, I feel quite confident that were there any credible "evidence" for the existence of god, it would have made the papers. You question if my position is not closer to agnosticism. I would say that i am agnostic about god to the same degree that I am agnostic about leprechauns and unicorns.

Anne: "By the way, trying to establish conclusions for which we already have some evidence is typical of science. Science observes, then forms a hypothesis (i.e., a conclusions to be established), and then it goes on to try through experimentation to establish that conclusion. So let's not have any more distractions about the looking for evidence for pre-conceived conclusions of one sort or another. We don't want to throw out science, do we?"

Response: Sheer nonsense I am afraid. Although any scientist is attached to his/her hypotheses, to hold onto them in the face of compelling contrary evidence is to have abandoned the scientific method itself. Hypotheses are assumptions to be tested, not conclusions to be verified. People may be pained at having to discard cherished notions, but intellectual honesty requires no less in the face of refutation. The scientist who merely seeks evidence to support a pre-conceived notion is being a poor scientist at that point. This self-correcting feature is clearly absent in most monotheistic religions, else we would not have the "6,000 year old earth" etc.

Anne: "I am not one of the theists who do what you describe above. (Yes, I'm a believer, but also a former philosophy teacher, so I do have my non-religious reasons for thinking there is a God.) So you're dealing with another straw man, not me. It is you who have started with your "conclusion" that that is what I think, and you have after that fact gone on to try to establish conclusion. And, yes, this is a very bad habit."

Response: Look more closely, here is my actual statement: " If you are like the vast majority of theists..." Note the "if." I said nothing about you personally, unless the condition "you are like the vast majority of theists" is accurate. You say it is not, good enough for me. No straw-man though. No starting with conclusions.

Anne: "Whew! "backwardness", "distrust", "retarding intellectual progress" "cruelty". I didn't realize just how awful and wicked I am !!! Thanks for telling me."

Response: You are (again) personalizing something when I made a general statement, another straw-man. I claim that faith itself, on the whole, is not a good thing. That does not imply that there are not moral people who have faith, nor that every single aspect of faith, or instance in which it is practiced is "awful" and "wicked." The historical record bears me out on this.

Ann O., Anne Coress, Ann Onymous, and, in less than a week, Ann O Domini 2007,

Yes, I am totally confused, rather like a drunk in a house of mirrors. Let me see if I can clear away some of this confused tangle of people, thoughts, philosophy and confusion.

Here are my postulates:

1. Ann O. is a former philosophy teacher.
2. Anne Coress had the miraculous remission of a tumor.
3. Anne Coress sometimes posts under the pseudonom "Ann Onymous" = "Anonymous", or does she? Is she really the "Anonymous" who has posted frequently on these threads the past several weeks? I think Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle has entered here, and that's always been beyond me.
4. Ann O. has been debating with me over "miracles" vs. "unexplained natural happenings".

This brings me up to your posts of early last evening. I didn't read them until this morning because like many Vermonters, past and present, I go to bed really, really early, though without noticable benefit to my health, wealth or wisdom.

Let me simply say:

I'm a simple person. I don't care for complexity. I'm not a philosopher. Leaving aside Occam's razor and the rest of it, it makes sense to me than an unexplained cure is just that and not a "miracle."

Anne Coress, I've had your Head-of-Neurology experience with docs many times. The head of infectious diseases at a renowned medical center yelled at me that I most certainly did NOT have Lyme Disease, despite the blood test and SPECT scan evidence I gave him that said I did. He allowed as how I must be a both knave and a fool even to have suggested it and I should get out of his office. Fortunately I found a Lyme-literate doc who agreed with me. No miracle cure for me though. I've been on antibiotics for almost two years and have gotten a lot better. Another three years of pills and I may be near normal. If any of you Ann/es know how to produce a miracle cure for me, please let me know. By the way, the average Lyme patient uses up 5 years and 22 docs before s/he gets the correct diagnosis.

Well I've really wandered off the thread of this thread haven't I? Thank you all for our stimulating conversation. By the way, are you sure you're not one person with multiple personalities?

John M and Karen. I agree with you both. You don't have to be a wacko to have an authentic experience with God. I think intelligence concerns seeking the truth. It appears to me that we are physical and mental beings - but I can't escape the fact that we are spiritual beings also. There seems to have always been this spiritual side - we need not be afraid to adress it.

John M.
Thank you for a great post. I just finished reading the Case for a Creator last night. Great book, great research. I was quite surprised to read that much that is presented as absolutely evident fact has not basis in reality and would require more faith that belief in God.
Like you, I am highly educated. I work in medical research. I am well read and well traveled and do not fit into the stereotype of the obtuse right wing religious nut that many of the bloggers try to put us in. That is why I really appreciate your post. Merry Christmas.

HMM writes: I think, as with any great cultural contributor, Russell needs to be placed in the broader context of his historical times and his personal challenges.

Also, Ann O, I greatly appreciate your thoughtful comments. I sense we are fellow travelers.

Hi, HMM,

I also sense that we ask the same sorts of questions, and perhaps come to similar conclusions, or at least have similar criteria of what is rational. Not that those criteria can't be revised :-)

As to Russell, I also suspect that he was more complex than he is generally thought to be. And I wonder if Wittgensteing was right about his abilities. Anyway, I admired R's honesty enormously, and the fact that he changed his mind when he thought he was wrong is admirable. As to his personality, I've read only his Autobiography. I've read that some current biographies paint him out to be a bit of a monster, but I find that hard to believe.

I wish he had had a better grounding in the earlier philosophers. It seems that the English philosophy departments of the time thought that philosophy began with Descartes,except perhaps for Plato. What a shame. All of those foundational considerations of the ancient Greeks and the medieval rationalists would have been right down his alley, and his criticisms of them would, no doubt,have been most interesting :-)

Ann O.

NORRIE quotes Ann: You wrote: "As I see it, the believers are appealing to an unseen cause (God) while the nonbelievers are also appealing to an unseen cause (physical forces not yet discovered). Both appeal equally to unseen causes."

When I first read this I thought, "She has a good point." On reflection, though, I'm not sure you do. The two appeals are not really equal. To appeal to God you have to postulate an entire cosmology and religion for which there is no evidence. To appeal to undiscovered physical laws, you have the historical fact that all physical laws were once undiscovered, and that new discoveries are continually being made

Hi, again, Norrie,

Why do I have to postulate an entire cosmology and religion to think there is a God in the sense of a Creator or Designer? Yes, people often do link the two, but though the topics can be related, I don't think they need be. Not unless you ask more questions and look for more evidence.

In fact there are some contemporary physicists who hold the anthropic cosmological principle -- that it is improbable that the universe is old enough to have resulted in the "order" we find just by chance occurences. And these scientists maintain therefore that the order we find in the cosmos has been produced by a Designer.

With them, knowledge of the design (their cosmology) comes first, and then comes knowledge of a Designer, not the other way around. Also, the Designer they describe doesn't seem to have anything to do with religion as the term is usually understood.

I have no idea whether or not their science is sound. My only point here is that they think there is a God from scientific evidence, and they have not subsequently invented their cosmology plus a religion to go with it.

Complexity, complexity, complexity.

As to physical laws being discovered, yes, they are. And some are abandoned too. There really isn't anything absolutely certain about science. The thing about physical laws is that they just go so far: they explain the relation of this to that, but physics does not explain why there is anything in the first place. That's a metaphysical, philosophical question (in the old sense of metaphysics).

NORRIE: Philosophically, Occam's Razor (the lex parsimoniae or law of succinctness)dicates that we appeal to unknown physical laws rather than a diety. I prefer the on-the street version of Occam's Razor: "If you hear hooves, think of horses not zebras."

Ann O: Hmm. Occam himself (a medieval philosopher/theologian) was one of the ones who thought that the universe could not explain itself. He was an Aristotelian. But, wise man, he didn't limit evidence to the physical evidence that scientists limit themselves to these days. And like all good Aristotelians he admitted that even systematic empirical knowledge (science, in the contemporary sense) can never be totally certain.

About Occam's razor. It is not itself a scientific principle. True, it has proven useful in the history of science as a hermeneutic principle (one which the thinker uses to guide his researches), and it has proven successful in explaining purely physical facts. But the statement "Simpler explanations yield truth" is not something that science can prove.

ISTM that this has been the wildly gratuitous assumption that has been at the basis of science since Thales, the ancient Greek who was the first Western philosopher-physicist. His answer to the question "Is there a basic stuff?" was, yes, there is, and the basic stuff is water. I read just the other day that now some physicists are saying that it looks like space-time is "the" basic stuff and it's a fluid. See? You can't get away from the Greek philosophers :-) But Thales' assumption was only that -- an assumption. There is no real reason to assume that there is *only one* basic kind of stuff, much as the physicists would like it to be that way. Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't.

So you see, scientists also make some very fundamental assumptions without justifying evidence, just as many believers do. Oh -- another basic assumption that is popular with physicists these days is that if a theory isn't beautiful (by which they seem to mean simple or elegant) then it isn't true. (See Richard Feynman, for instance.) I say, humph.

This over-valuation of simplicity leads in my experience to a mind set that ignores the complexity and variety of this world or simply doesn't appreciate differences or just claims that the differences aren't important, or that eventually they'll be proven not to be *really* different. Double humph. At least the ancient Greeks saw that if there really is only one basic stuff that the existence of differences *as such* need an explanation. Contemporary physicists haven't gotten this far philosophically. Sigh.

Ann O.

Where as doctrine is good for progressive belief - personal testimony with doctrine is more believable. I do respect that...I'm sincerely trying to be open to reality concerning God.

Truth is a constant struggle - but the challenge is good for all of us.

Poor Norrie, The Anns on the board were already confusing you and I've added to your confusion by introducing yet another Ann: Ann Onymous

Please forgive me...

"Have the docs ever come up with a theory of what happened?"

At the time most Drs. said it was spontaneous remission. Although the Drs. closest to me called it a miracle.

I did go to a large well known cancer center to be reviewed. The neurologists put me through a rigourous battery of tests. At one point they asked me to count backwards from 100 by sevens -which I did. Then they asked me to name all the US presidents beginning with Washington. I think I got to Madison before I told them I don't think I could ever name all the presidents in order.

I was taken in to speak to the head of Neurology. He was just back from speaking in Sweden. I remember thinking I could barely fit in the room with his head (if you know what I mean).

He put up my MRIs and said -I still see cancer there. You should begin treatment as this will come back on you. Needless to say I didn't. But it took me five years to be declared cancer free.

Best wishes to you and your family.

Anonymous,

It's good to hear from you again. What an amazing experience you had! Have the docs ever come up with a theory of what happened? It's a shame you had to gthrough all that. But, as you show, the ill wind that hit you blew good to a lot of people. Yes it is a mysterious world.

Ann O.

Thanks for your response to my post. I would have replied to yours sooner but my family insisted I watch a DVD of "The Da Vinci Code" which I hadn't seen before. It's a better film than the critics let on. They called it "boring,"
which it undoubtedly was for the masses of teenagers who didn't have a clue as to what was going on. Needless to say I rooted for Mary Magdalene & the Priory of Zion.

You wrote: "As I see it, the believers are appealing to an unseen cause (God) while the nonbelievers are also appealing to an unseen cause (physical forces not yet discovered). Both appeal equally to unseen causes."

When I first read this I thought, "She has a good point." On reflection, though, I'm not sure you do. The two appeals are not really equal. To appeal to God you have to postulate an entire cosmology and religion for which there is no evidence. To appeal to undiscovered physical laws, you have the historical fact that all physical laws were once undiscovered, and that new discoveries are continually being made.

Philosophically, Occam's Razor (the lex parsimoniae or law of succinctness)dicates that we appeal to unknown physical laws rather than a diety. I prefer the on-the street version of Occam's Razor: "If you hear hooves, think of horses not zebras."

Hi Norrie.

My diagnosis came when a brain scan revealed a tumor the size of a navel orange with a crescent shaped hemorrage below it. In surgery, my doctor opened up my skull and found nothing. He said they stood there looking at me and at the scans and decided to just close me back up. Even more extraordinary..My scans and MRIs (they were brand new then) showed the cavity where the tumor had been fill up over the next few months until my brain was almost perfectly symetrical.

Of course, this was all physical phenomena and may in years to come be explained away.

It is really the life changing that Pastor Dukes speaks of and named his church after that is markedly different.

My neurosurgeon who was a lapsed Catholic renewed his faith. There was an outbreak of cholera in India that year and my radiologist formed a group and traveled there to help out.

AIDS was new in our community. Everyone was still afraid of how it was transmitted. So I went to sit and talk with AIDS patients and their families. I've been reaching out to critically and terminally ill people of all belief systems ever since.

I wish you the best too, Norrie..

why do the panelists never respond to the posts they make? if you expect the audience to respect your opinion- why dont you give the same respect back?

ive only seen 2 panelist respond on these forums and they were Miroslav Volf and Hamza Yusuf.

you will never find these questions and rationales in islam- there is no suspension of belief or disbelief- it is completely harmonious with all scientific endeavor- using the Qur'an itslef as an inspiration has led many great muslim scientists to make life saving and changing discoveries- rediscovering the mysteries of material existence-
it is so clear and scientific thought and investiagation is encouraged and there is no dark period where it was suppressed.

as for something being "not up for philisophical argument or theological debate"
why come and be a panelist on a discussion forum if you will not hold your beliefs up to the scrutiny of publicy inquiry?
i will certinly respect your views- if i know what they are and why you think them-
if you feel they will not stand up to any kind of questioning- why should i consider them a valid point to be considered alongside other discussions of interchange?

Pastor Dukes’ story of personal change is one thing that Christians have in common. Jesus is not content with us knowing Him; He wants to change us.

I recently saw a survey showing that 73% of Americans profess to be Christians. (Another study has that figure at 83%). 25% of Americans call themselves Evangelicals.

That’s a lot of people. Too many people, I think, for all of the labeling that’s going on all over this Newsweek website. Too many people, I think, for all of us to be uneducated, scientifically ignorant, weak, close-minded, hallucinating, etc. This is a vast group of people who cannot be painted with the same broad brush.

I, and many others, break the mold on some of the labels some posters are suggesting of Christians:
- I am well educated. (I am a doctor and a college professor. I know many others like me who share my faith.)
- I am not ignorant of science. (I have a degree in Biology and I have the same Myers-Briggs personality type as most scientists and rational thinkers. To meet more people like me, read Lee Stroebel’s The Case for a Creator, wherein the author interviews many accomplished scientists who are believers.)
- I did not grow up Christian. (I became a Christian at age 38. My dad just became a Christian recently.)
- I do not live in the Bible Belt. (I live in the Rust Belt.)
- I do not believe in a ‘Moral Majority’. (I believe Christians are to submit themselves to the government, NOT the other way around.)

One thing we Christians DO all share in common is a personal story of life change, orchestrated by Jesus. Each one of us could tell a story like Dr. Dukes’ story. And, trust me, if Jesus changed your life, you would want to tell your story, too!

When I first read Bertrand Russell’s ‘Why I’m not a Christian’ I was a teenager. I’ve revisited it several times in the intervening years and always find it interesting. I have however, over the course of much study and deliberation, come to a different set of conclusions. Having said that, I must confess that my early exposure to virtually all that Russell wrote (with the big exception of the afore mentioned “Principia Mathematica” (which settled for all time that I was not going to be a mathematician)has left an enduring mark on my thinking about philosophical, theological, political and scientific problems. And while I greatly respect Russell’s intellect, he was a more complicated man than most people realize. His close friend and collaborator on “Principia Mathematica”, Alfred North Whitehead, came to a parting of the ways over the very types of issues debated in this forum. Russell also had disagreements with his protégé Ludwig Wittgenstein, over Russell’s misconceptions about the meaning of Wittgenstein’s work. And Russell was not always consistent in his own beliefs either. For example, his early pacifism was tarnished greatly when he advocated a unilateral nuclear strike on the former USSR in the aftermath of WWII, a position he later regretted. I think, as with any great cultural contributor, Russell needs to be placed in the broader context of his historical times and his personal challenges.

Also, Ann O, I greatly appreciate your thoughtful comments. I sense we are fellow travelers.

Great question, Scottie. You are not the first person to ask me so I've had many long conversations discussing this.

I had up to the time of my diagnosis, lived my life through my intellect. The tumor took away my ability to communicate. I can remember laying there thinking, I'll be alright if I don't drool...then I'd drool.

No Pastor came. I was alone and in my despair I cried out to Jesus.. live or die, I was reaching for His hand. In my encounter with Jesus, my healing seemed to fall from His hand.

Its not about you, Scottie. And its not about me. Its all about Him. You might think after my experience my overiding thought would be "I am blessed" but it was "Who is Jesus and how can I know Him better?"

Its not about miraculous signs or intellectual wisdom (although these things certainly seem to follow believers)-its about Jesus Christ the Power of God and the Wisdom of God.

NORRIE tells us:

The Roman Church and other sects who are always reporting, talking about, and making central to their beliefs, "miracles", really don*t understand what*s going on.

They regard certain unusual happenings as not possibly being part of the natural universe, and as being necessarily caused by "divine intervention."

An unexplained cure, various parapsychological phenomena, and so on, are seen as proof of the sect's belief that there is some divinity that operates outside of the laws of physics, chemistry, etc.

What is actually happening is that there are forces and natural laws operating in these events that simply haven't been incorporated into human understanding of how the universe operates.

Hi, Norrie

As I see it, the believers are appealing to an unseen cause (God) while the nonbelievers are also appealing to an unseen cause (physical forces not yet discovered). Both appeal equally to unseen causes.

About miracles and the Catholic Church -- the Roman Catholic Church (at least these days) doesn't assume that all claimed miracles are really miracles. Far from it, undoubtedly because there are too many cases like the piece of toast nonsense. Unitially most bishops seem to try to discourage such beliefs, and only when the beliefs persist strongly among at least some of their faithful do they start to consider whether or not there has been a miracle. Their method is to begin by assuming that there wasn't. Even when a belief is widespread and when otherise sensible people are convinced of the miracle, the Church doesn't leap to certify it. Sometimes certification - or de-certification -- takes years.

For instance, there was (and probably still is) a widespread belief that many miracles had happened in Medjugorje (sp?) involving the Blessed Mother . These purported miracles went on for years, but recently the Church finally took an official position -- that nothing out of the ordinary had happened there. None of this is a matter of dogma -- something one must believe to be a member of the Church. If you are convinced there was evidence, fine, you're free to go on believing it. If you never were convinced, that's fine too.

But the Roman Catholic Church does affirm that miracles are possible. (You might consider the very existence of the cosmos to be a miracle -- something that could not have happened but dit.)

NORRIE again:

You mentioned Bertand Russell ("the great logician and mathematician").

What did you think of his famous lecture, delivered March 6, 1927, to the National Secular Society, entitled "Why I am not a Christian"?

ANN O. replies:

I haven't read that one. But I have read his BBC discussion with Frederick Copleston concerning the existence of God and some others of his works. His main objection to the existence of God (in the ordinary Western sense of the term) is the problem of evil. His argument is an ancient and powerful one: if God is all good and all powerful, and God is the creator of everything, how could He possibly create the suffering of innocent creatures? Either He isn't all-good, or He isn't the creator of all, or He isn't all powerful. So there is no all-good, all-powerful Creator.

I have the greatest admiration for Russell because he was such an honest man. He (like Dawkins, by the way) would have liked to believe that such a Absolutely Good Being exists. But the problem of the suffering of innocents did not allow him to. And I freely admit that sometimes, when I see a little child suffering or a smasked dog on a road, I too think: no, God is impossible. He wouldn't do this horror.

On the other hand, I also find in my own experience beauty and goodness that cannot account for themselves, that can only be accounted for by a loving God. This I reason to philosophically. But add to my philosophical beliefs my own experience of the grace of God to do the good things which I really, really, really want not-to-do and am too weak to do using my puny will power alone, and given also my experience of holy people who tell me that they experience His grace and HIs presence, I think the balance of evidence comes down on the side of believing that He is real. This doesn't mean we can ever fully understand Him -- all theology is metaphor.

No, these are not proofs, but they are matters of evidence. And as I have gotten older I have revised my concept of what God probably is. I was taught that suffering is an evil, God is not evil, therefore God does not suffer. Well, I don't believe that any more. Parents suffer with their children, and that is a *good* thing, friends suffer with friends and that is a *good* thing -- even though it hurts dreadfully at times. So I believe that God the Father and Spirit suffered with Jesus on the cross, and also suffers with us, His adopted children.

So I no longer think that the philosophical problem that so troubled Russell (and most other atheists, as best I can tell) is as simple as I once thought. Yes, it still troubles me terribly at times, which is why the Book of Job is so precious to me, no doubt. But always, the beauty and goodness eventually outshines the darkness and evil. No, I can't explain *how* this is so. I can only tell you that I have found it to be true. God is with us, suffering along with us, and rejoicing with us.

And may the grace of God fall ever-generously on all us us, especially these holy days but dreadful times.

Ann O.

Ann O and Anne Coress,

Sorry I morphed the two of you into one person. You're both free to comment if you want to and can figure out which of you I was directing my comments to.

Anne,

You mentioned Bertand Russell ("the great logician and mathematician").

What did you think of his famous lecture, delivered March 6, 1927, to the National Secular Society, entitled "Why I am not a Christian"?

Thanks, BOB. I respect you for respecting the beliefs of others.

I completely agree with you. Christians should not tell the government how to govern or tell the public what to believe and how to live their lives. I think the Bible is with me on that one.

I for one certainly respect your right to belief and appreciate the benefits your belief, through your actions, bring to those in society you help.

However, you also must recognize when you act on your belief in the public sector -- ie, God tells you to do something, or God says x therefore we need laws to do x, or you "believe" y, therefore somebody else must too -- your belief becomes a political opinion and I have every right to challenge it, based on reason, law, science, and argue it completely, regardless of how that might impact on your future beliefs or actions.

Anne,

I respect your life experience as I do Pastor Dukes's. I am happy that you were cured of a terrible disease. As others have posted, though, anything that a person posts here should be subjected to scrutiny.

You don't quite say so but it seems that you believe your cure was the result of your "encounter with God's power through His Son Jesus Christ."

I hate being the skunk who keeps turning up at the Christians' Garden Parties in these threads, but please consider the following:

A man is desperately ill with an infection and in danger of dying. One morning he is visted first by a pastor who prays with him and later by a physician who gives him an antibiotic. The next day he is better and ultimately cured. He believes that the pastor's prayer and God's intervention saved him. Must we respect and accept his explanation?

Here's something I posted yesterday in another thread on the subject of miracles, spontaneous remissions, etc.:

In Re Miracles:

The Roman Church and other sects who are always reporting, talking about, and making central to their beliefs, "miracles", really don*t understand what*s going on.

They regard certain unusual happenings as not possibly being part of the natural universe, and as being necessarily caused by "divine intervention."

An unexplained cure, various parapsychological phenomena, and so on, are seen as proof of the sect's belief that there is some divinity that operates outside of the laws of physics, chemistry, etc.

What is actually happening is that there are forces and natural laws operating in these events that simply haven't been incorporated into human understanding of how the universe operates.

There are individuals who consistently defy probabilities of billions-to-one to guess the sequence of heads-and-tails coin tosses. Can anyone really believe that these anomalous results come from a "god" who interests himself in games of chance?

There are no miracles - only unusual outcomes of the operation of natural laws that we as yet don't fully understand.

Anne, I wish you the best.

Phaedrus:

Ann O writes:

"Many atheists make the child-like, uncritical assumption that this world is all there is. Their uncritical faith in that assumption programs them to close their minds tight to anything other than things of this world."

Ann, while I cannot speak for all atheists, I can assure you that all of the non-believers I know do not have faith in anything that has no evidence supporting it.

Hi, Fhaedrus,

Look carefully -- my statement was not about whether or not non-believers believe in things with no evidence to support the beliefs. My statement is about assuming that if *I* have no evidence for some possibility then it definitely doesn't exist.

PHAEDRUS continues: This is the exact opposite of what you posit, which is simply another way of stating what you see in so many of these threads; namely that atheism is "just another form of religion, without the god part."

ANN O.: I do not think that atheism is another form of religion -- that would be utter nonsense. I do say that atheism is a form of fundamental belief -- the belief that there is no God, a belief founded on the judgmnet that if I have not experienced something or if I have not experienced evidence for it then it must not exist. I didn't say atheism is a "religion". Yes, some do say that, but I'm not one of them. It seems you're dealing with a stereotype here.

PHAEDRUS continues: That non-believers simply "worship the formal scientific method." This works to the extent that most straw-man arguments work, but it is just so, well, erroneous.

ANN replies: I didn't mention scientific method, formal or otherwise. You imply that this is my position. It is not. It is YOU who have set up a straw man here, calling it my position. You're quite right -- such a position is a straw man, but it isn't my position. Seems you're using another stereotype.

PHAEDRUS again: We believe that this world is all there is because there is no evidence that this is world is not all there is.

ANN replies: Yes, clearly you see that your position is a belief. However, when you say "there is not evidence" -- you are making a hasty generalization. Since you don't claim to know every possible reality, you cannot claim to know that there is *no* evidence for His existence. There might be evidence that you have not encountered, and this is my whole point.

(Perhaps what you really are is an agnostic -- someone who has found no evidence, or convincing evidence -- of the existence of God?)

PHAEDRUS: Since life after death and the whole bit is such an extarordinary claim, of course extraordinary evidence would be required, but no more and no less than that which would be required for anyone making equally extraordinary NON-religious claims.

ANN: The question of life after death is independent of the question of the existence of God. Perhaps it is the fact that we do persist, even if there is no God. Perhaps God exists, even if we don't persist in any way after death. It really just muddies the waters, it seems to me, to lump the questions together.

PHAEDRUS: If you are like the vast majority of theists, no amount of evidence that the universe runs according to demonstrable principles with no god showing up anywhere at any time, would convince you that maybe what is not detected is, in all liklihood, not there! You start with your conclusion, and then try to back up and find supporting premises, and this is a very bad habit.

ANN: Another straw man from you, Phaedrus. I am not one of the theists who do what you describe above. (Yes, I'm a believer, but also a former philosophy teacher, so I do have my non-religious reasons for thinking there is a God.) So you're dealing with another straw man, not me. It is you who have started with your "conclusion" that that is what I think, and you have after that fact gone on to try to establish conclusion. And, yes, this is a very bad habit.

By the way, trying to establish conclusions for which we already have some evidence is typical of science. Science observes, then forms a hypothesis (i.e., a conclusions to be established), and then it goes on to try through experimentation to establish that conclusion. So let's not have any more distractions about the looking for evidence for pre-conceived conclusions of one sort or another. We don't want to throw out science, do we?

Sir Anthony Kenny once remarked that Bertrand Russell, the great logician and mathematician, faulted the theologians for doing just this -- in spite of the fact that Russell himself wrote a 500 page book (the Principia Mathematica) which attempts to prove that one plus one equals two :-)

PHAEDRUS: You seem, like most believers, to think that "faith" is a good thing. Believeing in something without having to have evidence is a sign of strength. I could not disagree with you more on that.

Ann: Yes, faith is a good thing, except when it requires actions of me that I don't want to do. Sigh. And -- again -- you are saying that I have no evidence for God's existence, and I can only tell you, oh, yes, I do. NOt enough to prove it mathematically, but that's not the only sort of evidence that there is. Belief is often a matter of accepting a best explanation for the facts at hand, and this is what my religious beliefs are -- best explanations. You know -- something like the belief that the there was a Big Bang somewhere back there in time and the belief that the various biological species evolved through a long period of time. Neither are "science" in the full sense -- there are no repeatable experiments that would establish those theories according to the strictest scientific criteria. But surely you wouldn't throw those theories out, would you?

PHAEDRUS: The evidence shows that faith is the hallmark of backwardness, distrust of others who do not have your "truth," the retarding of intellectual progress (as soon as "god" stopped appearing at the center of things at least), and outright cruelty.

ANN: Whew! "backwardness", "distrust", "retarding intellectual progress" "cruelty". I didn't realize just how awful and wicked I am !!! Thanks for telling me.

Ann O.

Anne Coress,

You stated that you experienced a "spontaneous remission" with complete restoration of health. As with Pastor Dukes, I had an encounter with God’s power through His Son Jesus Christ. Quite a life changer."

Please describe your exact experience with Jesus and explain why you think that you were chosen [by God] to be completely cured as opposed to some other innocent person who was suffering from disease. I hear your story again and again from believing Christians and this is the part that I struggle with intellectually - why one person is chosen to be healed and another not [thru God's grace].

John M., you wrote:

"Pastor Dukes has also asked that non-believers respect what he believes. Can anyone step up and do that? ...Norrie..."

I think that the tone of what I wrote shows my respect for Pastor Dukes and his life. Like all of us, he has had to make his way through this difficult world, with, it seems, considerable worldly success.

But consider: if Pastor Dukes had proclaimed that "the earth is flat," must I respect his belief? Do you really insist that I "step up" and say "I respect your belief that the earth is flat"?

I hope not.

"If you don’t agree with how I believe, at least respect what I believe."

Maybe, but not if your beliefs include statements like:

"I won’t enter into a theological debate or philosophical argument about this."

Ummmmm.......what????? Are you kidding me? You want respect for a belief that is beyond discussion?

How can anyone accept anything with such certainty? I am believe very strongly that Saturday comes after Friday. (Arguably, with more certainty than your belief in Jesus as God.) And I would debate you any day on whether this is so.

Dogmatic statements such as yours are insulting to any thinking person's intelligence. Replace Jesus Christ with the Flying Spaghetti Monster (apologies to Dawkins) and you would make as much sense. Shame on you.

Thank you, REALIST, and thank you, PHAEDRUS. I respect you for respecting the opinions of believers, and I respect your opinions as well.

Bob. Thanks for your kind response and I agree people can and do put faith in anything -from the life inspiring to death affirming.

I wrote: I understand Pastor Dukes because nothing convinces like a life that was helplessly bound up experiencing a tangible release and change seen by all.

In 1988, I was diagnosed with a brain tumor and told I had a week to live, I was 33. My speech was garbled and I could no longer read.

I experienced a "spontaneous remission" with complete restoration of health. As with Pastor Dukes, I had an encounter with God’s power through His Son Jesus Christ. Quite a life changer.

For me the proof isn't in numbers -its written into my broken and restored life. Once I too was blind but now I see.

Please try to understand my experience and excuse my dogma.. For me there is only one Grand Turtle and His name is Jesus.

It seems to me that the greatest illusion of the human experience is that we are, individually or collectively, in control of anything and everything. To the degree that we insist upon maintaining this illusion of our control over others, over our environment and even to a large extent ourselves, we are doomed to visit upon ourselves and others judgment, intolerance and indifference. This sad reality is no less the plight of the believer, the unbeliever or the skeptic. Certainty about the supremacy of our “enlightened” positions, whether they be religious, humanistic, scientific or rationalistic quickly take us down the path of self-righteousness and arrogance. How this helps us in our personal relationships, our communities or even with our perceived opponents and enemies is something I fail to comprehend.

"I won’t enter into a theological debate or philosophical argument about this."

Oh what a wonder and a glory the hypocrisy of "faith" can be! If I call myself a Pastor- I'm a Pastor. How will people know I'm saved - I say so. If I say my opinions (which I will cloak in words like "belief" or "faith") are beyond debate, then they are.

People will ignore that I could have easily not debated at all. I am able to say anything I wish about my past; I am able to imply that any who disagree are no better that those who sell drugs to children; I am able to put my Jesus-for-Profit advertisement in the Washington Post (and, later, not even bother with taxes).

All I have to do is say it is a matter of "faith." For when I have a "personal" savior, my faith is whatever I tell my pocket Jesus to say. Whatever I want is now God's word.

Sincerity? It's not up for debate. It's a matter of faith.

John,
I think Pastor Dukes' story is inspiring. We should learn from it. It proves that religion has the power to change lives. I think that's wonderful.

I respect his opinion at least in that he seems sincere in his belief. I respect his right to hold it and to express it, but I also respect people's right to scrutinize religion and to point out that there may be a less supernatural explanation for his change of heart.

I expect people to give me the same respect, and I hope they would not be afraid to criticize me if they disagree. If his beliefs are based on reality he need not be afraid to hold them up to scrutiny.

I was very religious for more than twenty years of my life, and I've experienced deep religious feelings. But after spending about ten years trying to understand religion and what's behind it, I can't say that my feelings were based on anything supernatural.

Isn't the point of this forum to discuss different points of view about religion?

John, what is it that you would have us do to grant this respect you ask for? Is it better that Dukes is no longer engaging in some of his more destructive former activities? Certainly. Is he free to credit an encounter with the supernatural for this transformation? Yes, again. But do not expect to be able to post this information on this site without having it subjected to the same type of scrutiny any other extraordinary claim would be. When people post accounts of alien abduction and they are met with scrutiny, is that also unacceptably disrespectful? Just because something is religiously oriented does not entitle it to more deference than any other claim about the nature of the universe and the human role in it. Dukes is free to debate or not debate any claim or subject he wishes. But just because he does or does not, binds none of the rest of us.

I am encouraged by Pastor Dukes' beautiful story, and I am disappointed (if not surprised) at some of the reactions to it.

Pastor Dukes lived this experience. He ought to be able to tell us what, or who, brought about this major life change. I think it's funny that some people feel the need to change his story and claim that it must have been his faith, and not Jesus, or some brainwashing, or his own humanistic effort, that altered his life's course. He was there; he lived it.

He says he won't debate or argue on this. He doesn't have to. Since he was there, he knows exactly what happened and how it happened.

Pastor Dukes has also asked that non-believers respect what he believes. Can anyone step up and do that?
Candide?
Norrie?
Realist?
Bob?
Burton?
Phaedrus?

Can you give him that?

Ann O writes:

"Many atheists make the child-like, uncritical assumption that this world is all there is. Their uncritical faith in that assumption programs them to close their minds tight to anything other than things of this world."

Ann, while I cannot speak for all atheists, I can assure you that all of the non-believers I know do not have faith in anything that has no evidence supporting it. This is the exact opposite of what you posit, which is simply another way of stating what you see in so many of these threads; namely that atheism is "just another form of religion, without the god part." That non-believers simply "worship the formal scientific method." This works to the extent that most straw-man arguments work, but it is just so, well, erroneous.

We believe that this world is all there is because there is no evidence that this is world is not all there is. This is what I see as the crucial difference between theism and atheism (as practiced by me and most others); IF someone came forward with strong evidence that there were a God, and Jesus was his son, and still lives and redeems etc etc, then we would change our positions! Since life after death and the whole bit is such an extarordinary claim, of course extraordinary evidence would be required, but no more and no less than that which would be required for anyone making equally extraordinary NON-religious claims. In other words, "the evidence goes in BEFORE the belief goes on." Now I would be willing to bet that you cannot, or would not be able to say the same thing. If you are like the vast majority of theists, no amount of evidence that the universe runs according to demonstrable principles with no god showing up anywhere at any time, would convince you that maybe what is not detected is, in all liklihood, not there! You start with your conclusion, and then try to back up and find supporting premises, and this is a very bad habit.

You seem, like most believers, to think that "faith" is a good thing. Believeing in something without having to have evidence is a sign of strength. I could not disagree with you more on that. The evidence shows that faith is the hallmark of backwardness, distrust of others who do not have your "truth," the retarding of intellectual progress (as soon as "god" stopped appearing at the center of things at least), and outright cruelty. It is ironic to hear christians make fun of scientology (as an example), as being sheer quackery, while missing the point that scientology has just as much evidence behind it as christianity does. Which is to say, none. So many christians join the chorus of those who decry scientology, and don't get me wrong, it IS ridiculous. But I have not heard any christian that I know personally or otherwise say,"Well, at least Tom Cruise has faith!" Curious.

So, Ann O. et al, you can call us whatever you want, but you cannot rationally consider atheism another form of religion. Nor, can you rationally state that our minds are "closed" due to our "programming." Our belief is that believing itself is so important that it should not be founded upon anything less than the best evidence that can be put forward, and as soon as the "best" is no longer the "best," it will be replaced by what is. We call this open-mindedness, and see it as a very good, and certainly not (what was your word?..) "childish" thing.

Lyle:
    Sadly, you are STILL dysfunctional and your mind is STILL full of demons. And though you are not selling drugs to MY children, every time you preach "Jesus" to your church members, or to anyone, you are indeed selling a drug.

Anne, the Grand High Turtle was obviously not meant literally. You can substitute it with Allah, Buddha, the Jewish God, or any other so called god that you want. Just because there are followers does not make the belief true. Remember that there are billions of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and also BILLIONS of people that are not religious at all.

The proof is in the numbers. There surely ARE billions of people believing in 'just anything' as you have put it. Billions believe that a god was born in human flesh to a virgin woman and rose from the dead. If you believe that then you must concede that people can believe just about anything.

"A person who believed in The Grand High Turtle in the way you believed in Jesus would probably have progressed through life as you have."

If this is true, were are the turtle's followers through the centuries to testify of the life changing benefits of believing in "just anything"?

I understand Pastor Dukes because nothing convinces like a life that was helplessly bound up experiencing a tangible release and change seen by all.

"People are really products of their experiences. We think, act and live what has been programmed into us."

You got that right. This explains why nearly everyone follows the same religion as their parents.

Why can't we teach our children to decide what to believe and how to behave based on reason and evidence? Why can't we teach our children to make decisions based on what is best for them and for society instead of perpetuating 2000 year old myths?

http://www.churchofreality.org/

Mr Dukes wrote:
" feel the same way. There is no way to explain away real change. Jesus is the experience that has produced a powerful transformation in my life. He is the Son of the Living God. I won’t enter into a theological debate or philosophical argument about this.

If you don’t agree with how I believe, at least respect what I believe. Without my belief in Jesus Christ, my life would be a lot different. Today, I really could be selling drugs to your children…"

What we are supposed to do now? Say Bravo! What a childish piece you wrote! This "sedation" piece is another kind of drug, aimed at preventing enquiring minds from working. I think it is a religious drug, that you and others sell in churches around the world. This is much more profitable than street drugs. The only experience I want to know from you is how to start my own church and how early will I be able to get my "return on investment". Is my best bet is to claim that I received the "holy ghost" or is it ok to start talking about an experience like the one you had? I also want to know about the best location to start that church. Afterall, the old saying "location, location, location" still holds!

Dear Pastor Dukes,

Thank you for your powerful expression of your experience of the grace of God. Maybe it will open some minds.

I agree that as children and adolescents we are programmed to think in certain ways. Sadly, many people's minds have been programmed by their educations and by the secular culture to believe that this world is the only one we can possibly be connected to. Their secular faith (and it is also a kind of faith) tells them that there is no God, and even if there were a God, He wouldn't have either the interest in us or the power to give us the strength to change when we need changing. (And that's what the grace of God is -- the power, the *spiritual energ* to do what is right and good inspire of our terrible weaknesses and bad, even sometimes evil habits.

Many atheists make the child-like, uncritical assumption that this world is all there is. Their uncritical faith in that assumption programs them to close their minds tight to anything other than things of this world. Then some of them lecture us believers about being childish and narrow-minded. But they are the ones who are like deaf people telling us that there are no sounds or blind people telling us there are not colors -- on the thorougly illogical grounds they have never experienced them. They tell us there is no evidence that there is a God. But there is a great deal of evidence -- the grace of God, the spiritual strength given to us to do what is right and good especially when we are weak or bound by bad, even evil habits. Grace, for those who are willing to see, is as real as the color red. It is evidence.

Thank you for telling us about your experience of it.

Ann O.

Life-changing experience is a wonderful thing. I'm glad Mr. Dukes took the time to share his experience.

Mr. Dukes didn't explain how or more likely who exposed him to this new life. I bet someone was very interested in him.

I'm a firm believer in people making a difference. To quote a refrigerator magnet:

"Prayer doesn't change things -
Prayer changes people.
People change things."

I think good happens because someone tries to make it happen.

I think everyone should try to help at least one person in their lifetime, make a difference. And that's harder than it sounds. It sounds like someone succeeded with Mr. Dukes. He's very lucky.

You know, the story of Jesus is the story of a man who helped an awful lot of people. No matter whether I believe he was supernatural or not, I admire him a lot.

Pastor,

I'm glad that things have turned out for you the way they have.

I appreciate that your perception of and belief in Jesus have been key to the direction of your life.

However, we might at least entertain the notion that the really key factor in the progress of your life was your belief, not Jesus.

A person who believed in The Grand High Turtle in the way you believed in Jesus would probably have progressed through life as you have.

Best regards.

Pastor Dukes,

I can certainly appreciate the powerfully life-changing "metamorphosis" that Jesus has brought about in your life. I am a Christian believer myself.

As I read your poignant reflection, I am reminded of Paul's words of admonishment in his letter to the Romans where he writes "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes..." (1:16)

At the same time, I am reminded that as believers we need to be about entering into intentional, authentic relationships with people we encounter who may not know God. In order to make this possible, we must first meet people where they are, get to know and value them as persons and earn their trust and respect. I beleive we are also called to a lifestyle that is pleasing to God, and that points to Christ without saying "look at me and how holy I am."

Like Francis of Assissi is attributed with saying- "Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words." Similarly, Jesus always met people at their point of need FIRST before sharing with them the Good News- whether it be through feeding or healing them, or treating them with dignity.

In an age of skepticism and doubt such as the present, I believe it is all the more important to first listen honestly and genuinely to peoples' concerns and questions before trying to somehow change their mind.

The Holy Spirit guides conversations toward salvation through Christ, when the time is right. If we do not first invest in those authentic relationships, and engage in honest dialogue that LISTENS FIRST, then we may not ever get the opportunity to share our testimony with that person.

Blessings and peace,

John from Philadelphia, PA

Jesus, being dead, cannot cause a profound or any change in one's life. Only indoctrination and propaganda can.

Pastor Dukes,

Once again you have spoken with honesty and glorified the power of Jesus, Son of God. Many people doubt God's transforming power but once He has revealed Himself and saved your life there should be no question about His greatness!!

Wow! What a powerful, mind changing, life affecting testimony. Your comments are real, and so transparent. I fully agree. True change is only found in Jesus Christ! Thank you Pastor Dukes.

What a powerful testimony of the real and life-changing ministry of Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE LIVING GOD!! I like to read your posts because you have tremendous insight. You are definitely spiritual, but you're "keeping it real", and I appreciate that. I will check back often to hear more of what you have to say!!