By the Numbers

Thanks Pastor Dukes. This is a great word to open up dialogue and allow us to think about where God is taking us. You highlighted Gods word when you preached from Phillipians and stressed "not that we have already attained but we follow after so that we may apprehend". "We press toward the mark for the prize in Christ Jesus". I can only speak for myself when I say I know there have been times when I have fallen short and can only yield myself to accept the Lords correction and try to align myself better with his will. When I read the Bible I find encouragement in the person of Paul when he said he did things out of ignorance but thankfully God knew his heart and even used those things (after he received correction). Maybe we as a nation can also find encouragement in our journey rather than the mistakes we have made.

Very good Mr.Dukes. Christianity is a religion of changed hearts not of nations. There are a small number of nations where Christians are the majority of the population but that in and of itself does not that nation a Christian nation. Even if it is founded on Chrsitian ideals that does not make the nation itself Christian.

ON FAITH America was founded on Christian principles from the Bible. The slogan, “Only in America…,” which was extensively used in times past indicated that in America the freedom to proclaim christianity and other civil and religious rights was exercised and widespread. Presently, the communication media, satellite TV and radio and especially the internet, has opened the world in dialogue to receive and reply to all modes of messages including the christian message. These modes have advanced Christianity, in my opinion, to the very brink of taking the Gospel to all the world. Faith, in totality, a spiritual dimension proclaimed in the Bible, provides the openness in heart to receive salvation to the throne and blessings of God.

Atheism Is not a belief system in an of itself.

Many different people have come to the conclusion of atheism and from many different philosophies and religious experiences.

Atheism is not Marxist, it is not Objectivist, it is not always a conclusion reached from Logic. It can be also reached using emotion.

You can be a Liberal or a Conservative or an Anarchist or any point therein.

Atheism can be a formal statement of non-belief but it can also be the fact that you have no knowledge or awareness of some theistic belief that others hold.

We are, it has been correctly stated, born atheistic. We can gain a knowledge about Gods or any theistic view only from parents and community that we are born into. Or by inventing our own Gods or God.

In fact we can say that we are all atheists in respects to other peoples Gods.

Most Atheists really just don't believe because it did not make sense to them. Some do not believe for an emotional reason like the death of a loved one that made them question their beliefs. Some actually have a religion that does not require the belief in the supernatural. Some do not see a difference in "God" or the Universe, two words for the same thing so to speak. But they are considered Atheist all the same by those who see the concept of "God" as outside of the Universe.

Often we have a problem in that "God" has no working definition that is consistent even sometimes among the same religion and denomination. Einstein is said in the Time magazine "Man of the Century" article to at least have believed in God. The truth of the matter is he probably was using God as a metaphor for the Universe. He did not in his own words "Believe in personal God". Shame on the author of that article for not reading anything Einstein actually wrote except "God does not play Dice with the Universe."

Some pretend to believe because in times past, and in the current state in the more radical muslim controlled countries you can actually be killed for expressing a belief against the status quo. Ever heard of the Inquisition, or the Stoning of Infidels and unbelievers?

Why are there now "Militant Atheists"? Maybe they are not so militant as they are tired of being told that unless they believe in the same fairy tales as their neighbor they will be censured, or excluded from even secular activities.

The United States of American is the first Nation to not have any particular religious doctrine being the foundation of it's Government. We even have an article in the constitution that forbids any religious test be given to any holder of office elected or appointed. There is no requirement to say "So Help me God" in the President's Oath. That is a personal choice to do so.

The farther back in time you go the more closely linked religion seems to be to the Ruling Bodies. We once had God-Kings, representatives of heaven on Earth, Some like Egypt claimed that the first Kings or Pharaohs were the Gods them selves. Later we had Kings and Rulers that said they Ruled by Divine Right and the Pope backed them up on it.

Was the United states influenced by Christianity? Yes, undoubtedly. Is it the singular influence that Christians of the far right would have you believe? No far from it. Much of the influence comes from individuals who began to think for themselves, the merchants of venice, The Greeks and the Romans for example.

They also questioned the great experiments of Europe, and did not want the disasters as they saw them of the Papists, and Church of England. That to me is the biggest influence that the Church or Faiths of man had on the founding Fathers. They seemed to have wanted each man to make up his own mind and not be bullied by a government or other group. They actually thought that it was a matter or personal choice, but they also thought that open discussion was healthy so long as no one was excluded because of a Majority Ruling.

We do seem to have the odd and contrary notion that the "Majority Rules" in this country. John Adams gave warnings about the evils of a true democracy, that it lead to only anarchy.

The controversial rulings of the Supreme Court against the "Under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance are not an attack on Christianity. The reality is it is a support of it, or rather each individuals right to choose. If you take that choice away and enforce it, you now take a road that the Founders feared.

They thought that picking and saying "We are a Christian Nation" was a prelude to saying that we are a Baptist Nation or a Catholic Nation, or a Lutheran Nation, or a Unitarian Nation, or a Deist Nation. First we exclude those who are not Christians, then we exclude those who are not our particular denomination. Remember, they were all well aware that we did not live in harmony as a freely choosing Christians.

Believe it or not, while many came to this country to practice their religion as they saw fit, when they got here they found that even here there were others who would not let them and in fact would kill them for being a Quaker, or Anabaptist, or Catholic or Jew, or Muslim, or Hindu. So much for Freedom of Religion as the basis of our Founding Pilgrims. The Puritans were a violent lot, so to were many others.

I say this:

"It is a weak Religion that requires the Government to Sanction or support it. It should stand on its own merits or fall for a lack of them."

Arthur

Atheism Is not a belief system in an of itself.

Many different people have come to the conclusion of atheism and from many different philosophies and religious experiences.

Atheism is not Marxist, it is not Objectivist, it is not always a conclusion reached from Logic. It can be also reached using emotion.

You can be a Liberal or a Conservative or an Anarchist or any point therein.

Atheism can be a formal statement of non-belief but it can also be the fact that you have no knowledge or awareness of some theistic belief that others hold.

We are, it has been correctly stated, born atheistic. We can gain a knowledge about Gods or any theistic view only from parents and community that we are born into. Or by inventing our own Gods or God.

In fact we can say that we are all atheists in respects to other peoples Gods.

Most Atheists really just don't believe because it did not make sense to them. Some do not believe for an emotional reason like the death of a loved one that made them question their beliefs. Some actually have a religion that does not require the belief in the supernatural. Some do not see a difference in "God" or the Universe, two words for the same thing so to speak. But they are considered Atheist all the same by those who see the concept of "God" as outside of the Universe.

Often we have a problem in that "God" has no working definition that is consistent even sometimes among the same religion and denomination. Einstein is said in the Time magazine "Man of the Century" article to at least have believed in God. The truth of the matter is he probably was using God as a metaphor for the Universe. He did not in his own words "Believe in personal God". Shame on the author of that article for not reading anything Einstein actually wrote except "God does not play Dice with the Universe."

Some pretend to believe because in times past, and in the current state in the more radical muslim controlled countries you can actually be killed for expressing a belief against the status quo. Ever heard of the Inquisition, or the Stoning of Infidels and unbelievers?

Why are there now "Militant Atheists"? Maybe they are not so militant as they are tired of being told that unless they believe in the same fairy tales as their neighbor they will be censured, or excluded from even secular activities.

The United States of American is the first Nation to not have any particular religious doctrine being the foundation of it's Government. We even have an article in the constitution that forbids any religious test be given to any holder of office elected or appointed. There is no requirement to say "So Help me God" in the President's Oath. That is a personal choice to do so.

The farther back in time you go the more closely linked religion seems to be to the Ruling Bodies. We once had God-Kings, representatives of heaven on Earth, Some like Egypt claimed that the first Kings or Pharaohs were the Gods them selves. Later we had Kings and Rulers that said they Ruled by Divine Right and the Pope backed them up on it.

Was the United states influenced by Christianity? Yes, undoubtedly. Is it the singular influence that Christians of the far right would have you believe? No far from it. Much of the influence comes from individuals who began to think for themselves, the merchants of venice, The Greeks and the Romans for example.

They also questioned the great experiments of Europe, and did not want the disasters as they saw them of the Papists, and Church of England. That to me is the biggest influence that the Church or Faiths of man had on the founding Fathers. They seemed to have wanted each man to make up his own mind and not be bullied by a government or other group. They actually thought that it was a matter or personal choice, but they also thought that open discussion was healthy so long as no one was excluded because of a Majority Ruling.

We do seem to have the odd and contrary notion that the "Majority Rules" in this country. John Adams gave warnings about the evils of a true democracy, that it lead to only anarchy.

The controversial rulings of the Supreme Court against the "Under God" part of the Pledge of Allegiance are not an attack on Christianity. The reality is it is a support of it, or rather each individuals right to choose. If you take that choice away and enforce it, you now take a road that the Founders feared.

They thought that picking and saying "We are a Christian Nation" was a prelude to saying that we are a Baptist Nation or a Catholic Nation, or a Lutheran Nation, or a Unitarian Nation, or a Deist Nation. First we exclude those who are not Christians, then we exclude those who are not our particular denomination. Remember, they were all well aware that we did not live in harmony as a freely choosing Christians.

Believe it or not, while many came to this country to practice their religion as they saw fit, when they got here they found that even here there were others who would not let them and in fact would kill them for being a Quaker, or Anabaptist, or Catholic or Jew, or Muslim, or Hindu. So much for Freedom of Religion as the basis of our Founding Pilgrims. The Puritans were a violent lot, so to were many others.

I say this:

"It is a weak Religion that requires the Government to Sanction or support it. It should stand on its own merits or fall for a lack of them."

Arthur

I dont recall anywhere Jesus(ata) preaching against the social order of the time- he criticized the pharisees when they did NOT follow their own religious lawas and were hypocrites- he said he came to fulfill the law, not destroy it.He lived as a jew following the jewish laws and precepts of his time.i never understand where people get this idea. its not in the bible- its like a combination of american constitutionality and how people imagine Jesus(ata) would act without having any reference to how he actually did live his life.
america cant be based on a christian social order because there really isnt one set down- people have unsuccesfuly tried to construct them in history but never with success.
well peace anyway im not saying this to incite anyone- i just really dont know where people get this idea.
again- it was HYPOCRISY IN NOT FOLLOWING PRESCRIBED LAW- that Jesus(ata) railed against.
he wasnt a social reformer.he was a messenger.

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?

A "comment" to a "given question".

Pastor Dukes, Excellent comment, I totally support your opinion. Pastor continue to speak words of wisdom and I pray that the people will open their ears to hear the truth. Your words are powerful. Bible say, "For many are called but only few are choosen" Real Christian live and strive to be their very best. They answer the call, and they are choosen to serve God, to build up Kingdoms and to reach nations of people. They seek Christ in all that they do. Let us not limited the works of God, because there is so much more that he wants impart in our lives. Lets us all be "Kingdom minded" and hear from God. Again Powerful words.

Selah...

When I moved to this country as a teenager, my favorite subject in high school was U.S. History. I was simply fascinated with the intricacies involved in forming this large country called The United States of America. Now, as an adult Christian, it saddens me to think of how seemingly unimportant or unpopular it is to know that the Founding Fathers of this United States of America were Christians. Suitably we can see the stamp of approval of these Founding Fathers, along with their pictures, on U.S. currency, even on the least of these, the penny, the wonderful words that say "In God We Trust."
Thank you Pastor Dukes.
Gema

Pastor Dukes, I am relieved to hear your comments. Many posting on this forum focus on winning arguments, not open dialogue. The call of Christians, it seems to me is something else altogether. I posted the following response elsewhere, but I think it has more relevance here:

What does it mean to be a Christian? If a stranger were to meet a Christian (you or me or another) on the road to anywhere, how would they know they had encountered a Christian? When I was a child we used to sing in church a song titled “They will know we are Christian by our Love”. I am convinced that if we are to be known as Christians at all, it will be because of our love of neighbor, our compassion for the poor and our commitment to justice. Our rhetorical skills will not account for much in the end. Arguing about whether we are a Christian nation seems to me to be of little import.

I believe that we are called to be Loving now in this moment, where we are and with whom we are. How will others know we are Christian? By our Love, for that is all we have to give. Any other standard falls far short of the mark. Paul says it best in 1 Corinthians 13:

“If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.”

For me, the question always gets back to “what does it mean for me to be loving in this moment, in this particular situation, with these “the least among us””: Which is to say, you and me on this forum, our wives and husbands, our children and extended families, our neighbors, the poor, the widow and her children, the imprisoned and even our enemies. How will these least among us know we are Christian except by our love? I believe my call as a Christian is to Love and to be Loving. If I am true to this calling, others will encounter Christ working through me. No argument will convince anyone that I am Christian or that I come from a “Christian nation”. When I forget this I fall into the trap of thinking there is something to win, such as this argument or some other. But in truth my behavior, my being loving,my being Christ-like, will say all that needs saying and my words will ultimately count for very little.

Given the question I'm persuaded to believe that politically conservative christians are correct about america being a christian nation, in that if it were a "satanist nation" with satanic imagery, whether being "exceedingly evil" would be the root basis of the question. Such as with respect to "good" or "Godly" being one of many "other" things that it could be along with the accompanying imagery to "show" it. The question would ask if America was something else besides a "satanist nation". God seems to be foundational and innately integrated into everything in this particular country so it's a tough sell to proclaim it anything other than. Just as a "communist" country would most likely have imagery and overall communism like structure that supports the majority-accepted understanding or belief.

It is written that "God creates nations" and he "uproots them" ie "Israel" "former Soviet Union"

Good comment, I didn't know there was some sanity in this forum. God's showing you some stuff, stick to it. The Bible says in Isaiah; precept upon precept, line upon line. I'm not as pc as you, i guess but i can see you love God and that's the most important thing! thanx for the comment :)

I agree that the true Christian nation are without geographical borders and God is not limited to boundaries.When a Christian visits other non Christian labeled nations one cannot but be grateful for the continued freedom of worshipping God in this nation even if the founding fathers established this nation as a secular nation by logic through the founding documents.

You always know the right thing to say Pastor, Like the other person commented you can't judge a book by it's cover. May God Bless you always...

Pastor Dukes, You are so right! God don't just want us to be limited to one nation he wants us go to the highways and hedges and the utterrmost part of the earth. Aa a christian I believe that we have a duty to do just that. So that we share Gods word. sherrel

Very well put together, Pastor. You are right, we can't place God in a box because that is not the type of God we serve. He is definitely everywhere, at anytime, when you just call on the name. God bless.

Zulei

Pastor Dukes, your comments are right on point. God is not looking for a nation to fit in; all nations belong to God. The label "Christian Nation" does mislead those who are not of the Christian belief. They see many more immoral acts of American people then they do the acts of love, kindness, and a Christian life style. My prayer is that the Christians in America will conduct themselves more like Christ in the coming year and the World will see us as a nation of love, compassion, and peace. I will continue to pray for you and our nation.

Well said...definitely something to pray about and contemplate.

Pastor Dukes, I have the same prayers and support your views on being a Christian in America. America is a relatively young country developed with diverse immigrants from several nations. It would be a good analysis to consider which other christian counties share our same moral and values.

In America... We still have a lot of work to do to set the example of true christians. We are too divided on Sundays ourselves by diversity to help spread the "Good News" to other growing christian nations. I hope for the same tomorrow as you "unconditional love, care, peace and higher moral standards would become the hallmark of America." I know God answers prayer- So, I'm going to quote the title of one of your books- "Let us pray!" I will continue to pray.

Vonzell

We must understand that the portrayal of a "Christian" is to live a life in the likeness of Christ. Is 85% of our nation living in that likeness.The scripture proclaims that he that names the name of Christ let him refrain from evil.

The best thing about being an American is that we can live as we choose. There are consequences for individual lifestyles but at least we are free to decide how we will live. If this is a Christian nation then we, Christians, need to take a stand and welcome the Kingdom of Christ. We need to extend the hand of peace, love and faithfullness. Our leaders should never use Christianity as a weapon but as a tool for change, forgiveness and acceptance. People claim to be Christians but as they say.."Actions speak louder than words."

Excellent response, Pastor. We know all too well the saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover." To only look at the appearance of an individual or a nation and place a title on them limits our ability to really know them. The bible states that "a tree is known by the fruit it bears." Whether we live in the U.S. or abroad, we must spend time learning, developing and living the character traits that make us a Christian.

Great job --something to think about