Rick Warren's Purpose and Profile
The real winner at Saddleback's religion forum on Saturday night was Rick Warren, the church's pastor and the event's moderator. Warren, author of "The Purpose Driven Life," arguably the best selling nonfiction book in history is, before our eyes, becoming the most important evangelical figure in the world.
Over the past decade, Warren has moved from being a rather predictable evangelical mega-pastor with a genius for "planting churches," as they say in the mega-church world, to the spokesman for the great, conservative, church-going American masses. Early in his career, he kept his focus small: he encouraged pastors to choose better music for their Sunday services - give the Boomers rock and roll, he said, and watch them flock to your door. Having conquered that rather parochial problem, Warren has since turned his considerable attention to global poverty, illiteracy, sickness, and AIDS. In 2006, he was still talking about the core evangelical issues - abortion and gay marriage - but over the weekend, his stance was broader. He mentioned no wedge issues by name, speaking instead of "character," "humility" and "leadership." Warren's genius - like Obama's, like McCain's - is in his personality. His bottomless stamina, unpretentious charisma and authentic likability make him the Billy Graham for the 21st century. Warren doesn't do crusades, but like Graham he is constantly seeking out new constituencies.
Over the past several years, much has been written about the broadening of the evangelical agenda beyond abortion and gay marriage; Warren has been the central character in many of those news stories. Implicit in Saturday's forum, then, is this question. If evangelicals care about more than abortion, if they really care about the environment and social justice and Africa, then how many of them can Obama entice to his side? The fact that Warren invited Obama to Saddleback, not once but twice, implies that such crossover is possible. Warren's personal warmth, his neutral stance, his avoidance of hot-button lingo implies that he himself believes that at least some of the people sitting his sanctuary will pull the lever for the Democrat this time. It is possible. Jim Wallis, the left-wing evangelical activist and founder of Sojourners told me he believes Obama could win 35 to 40% of the evangelical vote in November. In an earlier piece, I said those estimates were "irrationally exuberant."
To the pundits I say this: exercise extreme caution. Listen to Warren very carefully. Evangelicals today care about a lot of things beyond abortion, but they still care about abortion more than almost anything. More than half of older white evangelicals believe that it should be more difficult than it is now for a woman to get an abortion; among younger white evangelicals that number is 70 percent. Many evangelicals I've spoken to say abortion remains a bright line for them - a place where they cannot compromise. Obama may be a Christian, but he's not their kind of Christian and McCain, for all his faults, says what they want to hear. Warren won't say who he's voting for - and indeed, he shouldn't - but on Hannity & Colmes earlier this week he said this: "I'm a conservative." If it were up to him to pick Supreme Court judges, he'd pick a "strict constitutionalist." Anyone who follows the abortion debate knows what that means. Warren represents a new kind of evangelical - and the weekend's forum put this new, embracing posture on display - but the bottom line is the bottom line, and nothing a pro-choice candidate could say will change that.
By
Lisa Miller
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August 19, 2008; 12:49 PM ET
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Posted by: Anonymous | August 23, 2008 11:34 PM
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Voting against a law doesn't mean one is in support of extreme cases happening: it's not out of character for 'pro-life' legislators to present a law in the way you did below, but insert a 'poison pill' of really bad precedent or other unacceptable effect, ...so they can say to the electorate: "They voted for infanticide!"
One of the things about that law in particular, apart from trying to get certain Christian Right definitions into law, is that it would have removed the doctors' ability to use the 'Mental Distress' exemption from the late-term abortion ban.
That exemption is there in the first place to spare women the trauma and in fact health risk of carrying and going through labor and possibly pointless 'heroic measures' when a fetus is just so badly malformed or otherwise unable to survive on its own that that honoring that late term abortion ban would basically be tantamount to the state putting a woman through needless suffering.
So it's not as simple as the would-be moralists make it out to be.
It's like when a Democrat votes against appropriations bills for body armor with the troops... *until* they get a version that provides *enough* and vote for that... then the Rovians call it 'flip flopping on supporting our troops.'
Laws are *laws,* not referenda on hot-button issues. When they're made, we gotta live with the results.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 22, 2008 10:24 AM
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It is the position Obama took against the BORN ALIVE INFANT PROTECTION ACT that deeply concerns me:
In this audio Obama claims two doctors helping a baby born alive after a botched abortion would be a burden for the aborting mother when he is arguing against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act at the Illinois state legislature April 2002
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 7:01 AM
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Senator Obama on Abortion ---
He trusts women to make the right decision in consultation with their doctors and clergy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCifpbfQlOM&NR=1
At Planned Parenthood ---
Posted by: Anonymous | August 21, 2008 5:11 AM
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Still not quite grasping that 'Freedom' thing, are we?
" robert:
"Good or bad, we have to choose who we serve. It may be the devil or it may be the LORD, but you are going to have to serve somebody."
No, we don't. Certainly not choosing between whichever 'true God' is telling us to do bad things for a 'greater good,' and which is supposedly adept at impersonating the former, and the both loving to scare people into irrational obedience.
If I were a Christian, I wouldn't follow the Evangelical political agenda, because, frankly, it's the picture of its very own 'Antichrist' and can't even bloody see it.
"I serve the LORD."
Well, if you want a 'Master,' too, again, this is America, and you have to make private arrangements, since we freed the slaves some time ago, and however much you believe in the necessity of *servitude and bondage* ...this doesn't give you the right to use government to try and put others in chains to validate your own choices. Or how you frame your choices.
I serve Them I find good, as that good was shown to me. It's not a goodness to try and use government power to try and force people to kneel to another.
Frankly, if your God is by some unfortunate circumstance as you say, and the rest of the world deceived, then there'd be nothing to be gained in any such goodness' eyes by kneeling to that which I know is wrong.
You and your God may judge by whatever contradictions and assertions they like.
I have... Faith that beings bigger than me are not alarmed by my little strivings to do good as a free being. I will not forswear *my* Gods, or a belief in the dignity and wonder of an individual human, ....just cause you may threaten or defame me with the might of your view of your God.
As in American culture, I do not call myself 'slave' or 'girl,' but as we all call each other. Sir or Ma'am. We may in our hearts hold fealty to our spiritual Lords and Ladies. But not as serfs. Not as slaves.
But as free and ennobled beings. As peers and equals, not by any trickle-down of 'divine right of kings,' but as the *creatures we are.*
I don't fear the judgment of your God.
If he thinks all that matters is if I believed liars 'on faith,' and actually has the power you claim, then he's no Lord worth the service. And may do what he will.
I think the world is wiser than that, and 'God' is *bigger than that.* *Better than.*
I do believe the Gods are actually bigger and wiser than our apprehension. Even if we console ourselves with 'authority' and 'masters' and 'holy books.' Or absolving ourselves of our power when we seek to enforce a 'Master.'
I'm certainly not above trusting some bigger critters than myself with my little spirit's future. I find some comfort in that, cause ...I'm *pretty cheesed off* these days. I would not want it to turn bad, cause I know how close you can get to that when the whole world of 'Ultimate Good' and 'The Divil' gets *backwards.*
The 'Faces of God' I've seen were all manner of patient about me figuring out who They were, actually *taught* me things without saying, 'Lo, I'm the blah, obey my bureaucracy.'
So the way I figure it is, either 'God' is bigger than your political and dualistic agenda says, or I'm not gonna get any less screwed, in the unlikely event 'God' is a Neocon.
Meanwhile, back in America.
No slaves. No serfs. No knucklings of the forehead or having your hat off when our 'betters' pass.
In America, it's *us.*
Sir.
Ma'am.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 20, 2008 5:26 PM
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ATT: P A G A N P L A C E & Similarly Situated:
QUESTiON: YES or NO (not inbetween please)
Question: a YEA or a NAY (not inbetween).
that: "Marriage, Between a real-Man (aka, MAVORiTE) & a Real-Wo-man (aka, SPORADE), Married or Oraly is between a Man & a Woman, And Never Between a 1/2 Man & 1/2 Woman??????????????????
Posted by: From: Eclat{Arian}-Nationalis, U.S.A. Party 2013+ | August 20, 2008 4:46 PM
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Paganplace:
Good or bad, we have to choose who we serve. It may be the devil or it may be the LORD, but you are going to have to serve somebody.
I serve the LORD.
Posted by: robert | August 20, 2008 4:38 PM
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" Angela:
Hi Karen, I can't speak for any other Christian but I can speak as a believer who follows Christ and not the other way around. Also, Jesus is my Savior, Lord and Master. If he's not Savior and MASTER, then we want Him to save us but we don't want Him telling us what to do. ALL I CAN SAY IS I WILL VOTE THE BIBLE. God Bless You."
This is America. You want a 'Master,' then you have to make private arrangements.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 20, 2008 4:16 PM
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Hi Karen, I can't speak for any other Christian but I can speak as a believer who follows Christ and not the other way around. Also, Jesus is my Savior, Lord and Master. If he's not Savior and MASTER, then we want Him to save us but we don't want Him telling us what to do. ALL I CAN SAY IS I WILL VOTE THE BIBLE. God Bless You.
Posted by: Angela | August 20, 2008 4:00 PM
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Abortion statistics are never specific, as the procedure is protected under the right to privacy laws.
Don't state as fact what no one knows.
The CDC indicates that the number of abortion grew steadily during the 80s and peaked in the 90s. Abortions have declined in the 2000s to present.
Posted by: Anonymous | August 20, 2008 3:29 PM
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"Angela can speak for me. You may say you are Christian- but you sound like you are just leaning left and trying to convince believers to give up on their strong stand against abortion by expanded their issues. Its a weak argument and it won't work."
Actually, the 'strong stand against abortion' (ie, just trying to condemn and coerce and punish and call it a 'Moral Absolute,' ...in actual practice has the effect of increasing the number of abortions and other social ills that actually *happen,* whereas policies like Bill Clinton's (and Senator Obama's) of making abortion 'Safe, legal and rare,' in a context of prosperity for those who 'work hard and play by the rules,' ...actually *do* reduce the number of actual abortions actually happening.
I think this is why Bush *stopped the government from *counting* such statistics, early into his administration, a) so one-issue 'pro-lifers' can pull statistics out of wherever they're dreamed up, and b) So it's harder to see the damage policies of ignorance and coercion can do to the very people the 'pro-life' cause claims to be about.
Frankly, Republicans elected by the extremist one-issue 'pro-life' platform have no actual incentive to *really* ban abortion, anyway. Cause if they did, then they'd be rendering moot the only issue that keeps them in power for their fatcat corporate backers.
Posted by: Paganplace | August 20, 2008 2:19 PM
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Christian too: I am not trying to confuse anyone. I speak for myself and suggest that others do the same. And you know way too little about me from my short post to decide whether I "lean left or right" which is totally meaningless to me.
It is my opinion that what defines a Christian is not their stand on whether abortion should be legal or not, but whether they have received Jesus Christ as their personal savior.
Posted by: Karen M | August 20, 2008 12:44 PM
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Karen M-
Angela can speak for me. You may say you are Christian- but you sound like you are just leaning left and trying to convince believers to give up on their strong stand against abortion by expanded their issues. Its a weak argument and it won't work.
Posted by: christian too | August 20, 2008 12:30 PM
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Angela, may I suggest that you speak for yourself only rather than all Christians? I for one cannot vote for someone who believes that torture is OK and that jailing people in such conditions that they end up developing schizophrenia and other severe disorders as has been documented at Guantanamo is acceptable. As a Christian, I do not believe that the end justifies the means and I do not believe that my safety should come at the expense of the basic human rights of others.
As a Christian, I refuse to be a single issue voter. I don't think that Obama believes that abortion is OK, I think that he believes that regardless of his own opinion as a Christian man, it should remain legal. Big difference.
Here's the way I see it: just because abortion is legal, does not mean I have to have one. But how do I stop the goverment from spending my tax dollars on torture, death by "collateral damage" and so on? I try to change my government.
Posted by: Karen M | August 20, 2008 11:47 AM
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On: A Devilish Conspiracy & Usurpation of Secular Government in Sweet Sweet U.S.A.:
Ooooppss, Correction:
REMOVE-ALL of their (Rick Warren & Co.,) U.S. 'Federal Priviliges' (not A Right, as if Mr. Rabbi god Jesus made) such as the wll know "I.R.S. TAX-EXEMPT-STATUS's" TODAY! Not Tomorrow! Hence They will Die! Because (Technically/Legally) tha
Such Rick Warren Run "ANTi-GOV [SECULAR-GOV] run & Directed CHURCH's by such Devilish Folks in This Nation was never, repeat, NEVER was nor suppose to BE an ENABLER of Anti-Secular Business, nor Embraced nor Invited into any SECULAR Business or Establishment. Includes influencing, FROM THE PULPiT, not BENCH, any Every & All SECULAR ELECTiONS/Campaigns etc.., for Government!
Watch-Out Rick Warren & Co. Watch-Out (and Jesus Watch Towers) The FEDS (Secular Gov) is Gonna Get Ya!! Ya Ya!
Posted by: Caveat from the U.S. Supreme Ciourt to SADDLE BACK Religio COURT | August 20, 2008 9:07 AM
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Rick Warren & his Advisers should be ASSASiNATED, A.S.A.P! And His Churches Blown-up!
Better Yet, the Best Thing To Do, is have the current U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTiCES, as 'Punishment' against Finatic & Devilish Evilgelical Behaviours like 'God Player' Rick Warren & Co, et al,
Make a special Phone-Call & Show the U.S. iNTERNAL REVENUE SERViCE [Legally], for meddling & Satanically attempting to Influence a Presidency in Favor Of JESU Religion Lovers (not SECULAR?) and the imminent'Take-Over' of OUR Government (SECULAR)
Via REMOVE-ALL of their U.S. 'Federal Priviliges' (not A Right, as if Mr. Rabbi god Jesus made) know as the "IRS TAX-EXEMPT-STAUS" TODAY! Not Tomorrow!
The CHURCH's in This Nation was never, NEVER BE ENABLED, Embraced nor Invited into SECULAT Business. Includes SECULAR ELECTiONS/Campaigns, for Government!!
Posted by: From:The U.S.A. JOKTAN-ian "ECLAT{i}-ON-NATion" & Party Proletariate Defenders International | August 20, 2008 8:56 AM
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You can clearly see the blessing Abraham receive for obeying “Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him” You can clearly see “Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.” In the so-called christian faith the son of god is crucified by the romans for sin removal. The also eat and drink the flesh and blood of the son of man. This is the doctrine of “sinner creatures”. This is taught by those who stand behind the pulpit who are wise as serpents. “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;” Solomon taught “the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.” “his days, which are as a shadow” There are only two types of sinners, the wicked sinners of Sodom and the sinner Amalaks who are warmongers. Little do you understand. In times past, the romans captured people and brought them along on their conquests for food. They practiced cannibalism. An army lives on its belly. They have not the corn of heaven. Solomon said “He that withholdeth corn, the people shall curse him:” Look at the doctrine of Solomon about sinners. “Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old” “My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.” “For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.” “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise. Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.” “The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.” “Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:” “I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.” “But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow” “therefore the heart of the sons of man is fully set in them to do evil.” “This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.” “Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.” “He that withholdeth corn, the people shall curse him: but blessing shall be upon the head of him that selleth it.” “Thou visitest the earth, and waterest it: thou greatly enrichest it with the river of God, which is full of water: thou preparest them corn, when thou hast so provided for it.” “he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven, And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.”
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
He that withholdeth corn, the people shall curse him: but blessing shall be upon the head of him that selleth it.
He that diligently seeketh good procureth favour: but he that seeketh mischief, it shall come unto him.
He that trusteth in his riches shall fall; but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.
He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.
Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.
Thou visitest the earth, and waterest it: thou greatly enrichest it with the river of God, which is full of water: thou preparest them corn, when thou hast so provided for it.
Thou waterest the ridges thereof abundantly: thou settlest the furrows thereof: thou makest it soft with showers: thou blessest the springing thereof.
Thou crownest the year with thy goodness; and thy paths drop fatness.
They drop upon the pastures of the wilderness: and the little hills rejoice on every side.
The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing.
Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repayed.
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.
Much food is in the tillage of the poor: but there is that is destroyed for want of judgment.
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
The righteous eateth to the satisfying of his soul: but the belly of the wicked shall want.
My son, if thine heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, even mine.
Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.
Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the Lord all the day long.
For surely there is an end; and thine expectation shall not be cut off.
Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old.
That which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out?
I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:
And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
All this have I seen, and applied my heart unto every work that is done under the sun: there is a time wherein one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.
And so I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of the holy, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done: this is also vanity.
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of man is fully set in them to do evil.
Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Therefore saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellers as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
Posted by: harold | August 20, 2008 1:05 AM
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I just want to thank you for such a well written article on Pastor Rick. My husband and I had the pleasure of being members of Saddleback for 9 years. Everything you said about Rick Warren is right on target. He is intelligent, fair, HONEST, forthright and definitely purpose driven. I am thrilled that he thought of this forum. Believers and not believers alike, Democrats and Republicans got a rare opportunity to understand the character of each candidate without all the political meandering. It's about time! Great job!
Posted by: Patti | August 19, 2008 9:36 PM
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Too bad that during his first major exposure to a worldwide audience, Rev Rick decided to engage in a purpose-driven LIE to help out John McCain, ie: the false claim of the cone of silence.
This was my first encounter with Rev Rick, and I now know two things about him: he is a republican partisan and he will lie to advance his republican/Xian agenda.
My second encounter was watching him squirm on CNN as Rick Sanchez questioned him about the cone of silence lie. In this encounter, Rev Warren proved that he is both a liar and a BAD liar. I haven't heard as many illogical and conflicting excuses given for what he really meant by the cone of silence since bush started changing rationale for illegally invading Iraq.
Nothing new to see here. Warren embodies the worst the Xian world has to offer. If Warren is the shining hope for Xianity in the world, then I say, great! His kind of lying for Jesus will help bring this religion down faster than anything I or any other anti-theist could ever hope to accomplish.
Posted by: Mr Mark | August 19, 2008 6:46 PM
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"Evangelicals today care about a lot of things beyond abortion, but they still care about abortion more than almost anything."
Lisa has missed the other issue that is HUGE for evangelicals: their support for Israel.
Posted by: jesse | August 19, 2008 4:00 PM
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Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your accurate assesement. I don't think most understand: we as christians cannot vote for someone who believes abortion is ok. There are so many moral issues but this is huge and most, bible believing evangelicals will never vote for a pro-choice candidate.
Thank you.
Posted by: Angela | August 19, 2008 3:46 PM
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Quoting “Listen to Warren very carefully” “Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” He preaches the gospel, “be ye therefore wise as serpents”, “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” “And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field” The sinners of Sodom reject “that it was well watered every where” “even as the garden of the Lord” All other religions reject the doctrine of Moses like the wicked sinners they are. They reject the LORD and accept god as they are created in his image. This is the graven image the LORD rejects. The Faith of Jews starts with Abram/Abraham, that is why it is called Judaism, That is the name of the LORD. “My doctrine shall drop as the rain” “I will publish the name of the Lord” “I will give you rain in due season” “drinketh water of the rain of heaven” “I will rain bread from heaven for you” “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” “the trees of the field shall yield their fruit” “out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight” “the tree of life also in the midst of the garden” “good for food” “the tree of knowledge of good and evil” “the first rain and the latter rain” latter rain “I will rain bread from heaven for you” “drinketh water of the rain of heaven” “man became a living soul.” “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” That is how you have everlasting life. You are given the breath of life at birth and given the breath of life to enter Heaven. Everlasting to everlasting. The dead do not go to heaven. The so-called christians teach the gospels, to creatures. They have eternal life. That is what they are, dead. God never gave them the breath of life or a soul.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the Lord.
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.
Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.
And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
“and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where”
“before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah”
“even as the garden of the Lord”
“But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly”
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
“heavens and of the earth” “earth and the heavens”
“there went up a mist from the earth”
“watered the whole face of the ground”
“Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
“out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight”
“the tree of life also in the midst of the garden”
“good for food”
“the tree of knowledge of good and evil”
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
“My spirit shall not always strive with man”
“his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.
And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the Lord hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.
The Lord thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the Lord hath said.
“I am an hundred and twenty years old this day”
“I can no more go out and come in”
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
“Give ear, O ye heavens”
“I will speak; and hear”
“O earth, the words of my mouth”
“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“I will publish the name of the Lord”
That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.
“save with thy right hand, and hear me”
That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me.
“save with thy right hand, and answer me”
Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
“I will rain bread from heaven for you”
“the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day”
“I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no”
Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
“I will give you rain in due season”
“the trees of the field shall yield their fruit”
“sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely”
“I will give peace in the land”
“I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land”
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
“the first rain and the latter rain”
But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“A land which the Lord thy God careth for”
“I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain”
The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
“the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”
“to bless all the work of thine hand”
“the Lord shall make thee the head”
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
“Unto the woman he said”
“I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception”
“in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children”
“thy desire shall be to thy husband”
“he shall rule over thee”
Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
And Moses said unto the Lord, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?
“Moses said unto the Lord”
“Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant”
“wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight”
“that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me”
“Have I conceived all this people”
“have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me”
“Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child”
Posted by: harold | August 19, 2008 1:26 PM
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Rev Rick Warren, you did a truly fantastic job by:
-- remaining non-partisan and fair to both candidates;
-- asking both questions that revealed their personal values and their political policies;
-- giving both of them some questions they could prepare their answers for and mentioning topics for other questions so that they would not be in for any rude surprise or unprepared;
-- keeping a certain amount of room open for spontaneous answers so that it wouldn't be all about carefully prepared answers of a politician;
-- keeping it to an interview format rather than a debate so that competition was ruled out and each candidate was only expected to express their own views.
Those religious who have expressed criticism of the way you conducted the forum are merely ENVIOUS of you. You did the best you could and gave viewers an opportunity to glimpse the nature of both candidates from a different perspective as had been done until then. Your greatest strength is your non-partisan, compassionate, fair and fearless stand as an instrument of God.
Congratulations! May God continue to use you for His greater glory in the name of Jesus!