What Part of “No” Don’t You Understand?

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Kathleen Flakes posting on "NO", was level headed and beneficial for all communities. After reading a dizzying array of rabid pro and anti Mormon comments on other sites, her comments are a breath of fresh air… some light amidst the heat.

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From my perspective, the term "Mormon" refers to someone who believes in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's restoration. What am I missing here? Why is it so offensive to call the FLDS "mormons."

Rather than compare the terms "Catholic" and "Mormon," I think a better comparison would be the terms "jewish" and "mormon." There are many different sects within the "jewish" tradition, just as there are many different sects within the "mormon" tradition.

Now, we could revert to Judge Bruce Jenkin's distinction: he called the "mormons" who stayed in Illinois "josephites" and those who emigrated to Utah "brighamites." Any takers for those labels?

I find Professor Flake's usage of the term to be refreshing. She is no fool.

Flake's statement that "Mormonism is [a] broad religious movement comprised of many churches of diverse beliefs and mutual antagonism" is flat out wrong. Although she may be using the term "Mormonism" in some sort of specialized, technical / academic sense, in common usage this word refers to the culture, history, doctrine and traditions of the mainstream LDS faith -- i.e., of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It does NOT refer to the FLDS, or the RLDS, etc. To state otherwise is to ignore the way the word "Mormonism" is used in common speech by ordinary people.

And why should members of the FLDS church listen to anything members of the mainstream Mormon faith have to say to them? Each believes the other is in a state of apostasy. Their claims for divine authority are mutually exclusive. Kathleen Flake is on a fool's errand, unfortunately.

Kathleen, while I agree with the premise of your article, I disagree with your way-too-broad use of the term "Mormon." I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm a Mormon. Warren Jeffs' group, the RLDS "Community of Christ" and other so-called Mormon splinter groups are NOT Mormons. The comparison you draw could be applied equally to all Protestants, by lumping them together as "Catholics," or Catholic splinter groups.

You say that the LDS church wants to pretend that the FLDS and other "Mormon" splinter groups do not exist. I think that misses the point. Yes, they exist, and we uphold others' right to worship as they see fit (as long as they aren't hurting anyone else in the process). But because they are not "us," (Mormons/LDS), their existance is immaterial to us.

I am with you on condeming community-sanctioned coercive marriage, or satanic ritual abuse, or any other kind of abuse. But please do not confuse the public by associating my faith with the groups that sanction that sort of thing. We don't.

Generally speaking, the non-LDS public already has their heads full of confused misconceptions about what Mormons/LDS believe and are about. Rather than adding clarity, you have further muddied the already murky water.

"Mormonism is broad religious movement comprised of many churches of diverse beliefs and mutual antagonism."

I am a Mormon, and I am trying to find words to describe how utterly wrong this sentence is, but as of yet, words are truly failing me.

The LDS Church has absolutely no control over break off sects that have sprung up. We are in America, and as such, there is political freedom. The LDS Church cannot stop another church from forming and doing as they please, period. At least you have it right that the members of the FLDS church are excommunicated from the LDS Church. That is all the power the LDS Church can wield, so that's all they do. I'm not sure what else you expect out of them.

The LDS Church cannot control the FLDS Church, anymore than the Catholic Church can control the Baptist Church, or the Protestant Church can control Methodist Church.

I would think that a professor of American religious history would know that, but apparently not. I'm *sadly* disappointed.

Havs
http://www.votemittforpresident.com

This conundrum CAN be resolved... quickly... easily... economically... once and for all.

My simple solution requres only that for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote its front page to cartoons ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, all of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy. WARNING: This will not be pretty... but the world will be a much better place for it.

My only regret in this is that I cannot think of a similarly uncomplicated, cost-effective and efficient stratagem to dismantle Christianity... but, oh well... one thing at a time. One only does what one can.

Henry James -

Hello, Henry,

I'm against Mitt Romney because:

Of his political positions.

He's been associated with the building of the disproportionately large Mormon Temple which ruined the skyline and landscape of Belmont Hill in Massachusetts. No environmental values there.

He lives on Belmont Hill with all the supercilious richies and shares their values.

He runs around the outdoor track of my day prep school on Belmont Hill, which ruins my nostalgic image of the school, which I liked very much.

No man who dyes his naturally gray or white hair a horrible, slicked-down, coal-tar black can be trusted with anything.

Hope all's well with you.

"It is, first, at home that we must contradict the perverse idealism of the ideological extremist, religious or otherwise. If we can’t talk our own off the ledge, we have little say -- authoritatively anyway -- to others. "

There you go Mrs. Flake. I absolutely think you are on the right track. If you have the time, check out my comments about contradicting the faith instead of the acts to the religious extremist. Attack the roots instead of the fruits. Without faith, those actions of the religious extremist have no basis left for them.

"Force his conscience." Give me a break.

Ms. Flake:

"Smith’s words written from a Missouri jail when his own conscience was being coerced"

I'm a little sketchy on Mormon history. When was this that Smith was in jail? Was it after he was charged with bank fraud? No, wait, that was in Ohio. Was it after he marched into Missouri at the head of an army intent to do mass murder? Was it after he sent Porter Rockwell to attempt assassination of Governor Boggs? When was it exactly? It must have been before he bribed his way out of jail with a jug of whiskey and a handful of cash and then fled the state to avoid prosecution.

"Scientists have a DNA study trying to validate the claims made in the 'book of mormon' and DNA results have PROVED Joe Smith claims false. And yet Romney is STILL running for pResident touting the validity of mormonism. Only in America."

Anon:

This is kind of a non-issue for most Mormons. Here is a link to a spot on the church website which explains why:

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=97ca39628b88f010VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f5f411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD

On this link one can find various articles, some by geneticists, on the subject of DNA and the Book of Mormon.

Here is another interesting article:

http://www.sunstoneonline.com/Download/bom/135_Ostler_Logical.pdf

Best,

Jd1

"No" is easy for you to say. After all, you're not a religious extremist like some people. You KNOW that your faith is the correct faith. Knowledge removes the possibility of being extreme, unless it's extreme knowledge of course. How extreme is your knowledge?

The Bible is dead, busted. http://www.hoax-buster.org We'll be needing a new "word of God" otherwise we're going to have to declare threats of hell combined with tithes to be extortion, a crime for all but God's representatives.

I get it. Nancy Regan, "just say no" to religion. "No" is easy for you to say.

to Anonymous, wherever you are

Regular readers will recognize that I am not usually a supporter of Mormon practices.

However, if be disqualify Mitt Romney because Mormons have questionable beliefs,

we must disqualify all the Christian candidates who think a virgin gave birth and that Jesus flew up into the sky.

We should judge Mr Romney on his political record and positions.

Scientists have a DNA study trying to validate the claims made in the 'book of mormon' and DNA results have PROVED Joe Smith claims false. And yet Romney is STILL running for pResident touting the validity of mormonism. Only in America.

If you want to learn about the FLDS, check out the archives of the Salt Lake Tribune for some decent journalism.

If you want to watch a high budget soap opera about the FLDS, check out Big Love.

If you want to learn about the LDS Church from a nuetral perspective, check out the articles and interviews recently published by the Pew Forum.

If you want to learn about Mitt Romney research his record and current stances.

The winner's are those who choose to educate themselves.

Mitt Romney has lost.

The LDS Church has lost.

Who's won?

HBO's "Big Love".

[Why? Because most viewers will think that most Mormons live as they do in Juniper Creek, not as the attractive central characters live in a Salt Lake City suburb.]

Have you noticed that Warren Jeffs' angular facial lines mirror those of Roman Grant?

"Big Love" will cost Romney millions of votes.
Why hasn't Mitt sent out hit squads to terminate these vote-losing actors?

Lest you think I'm anti-Mormon, please remember that Joseph Smith and I both lived for a time on Upper Turnpike Road in Norwich, Vermont.

Same place, same values - right?

Doc,

Just a brief clarification.

It is true that Warren Jeffs is NOW the prophet of the FLDS church, but he wasn't in 2001, when this alleged crime was committed.

Thank you sister Flake for your excellent essay!

To those who suggest that Helen Mar Kimball's marriage is like the case for which Warren Jeffs is under investigation, I would like to point out a few things:

1). As historian Todd Compton has said, the evidence suggests that Joseph's marriage to Helen Mar did not involve sexual relations. It was primarily dynastic, designed to create a link between Joseph Smith and Helen's father Heber C. Kimball.

2). Whereas in the case above, the woman obviously regretted the marriage into adulthood, until the day of her death Helen Mar testified of the correctness of her decision to be sealed to Joseph. She even wrote a book defending the practice called "Why we practice Plural Marriage."

3). Marriage between a man of Joseph's age and a teenage girl was more culturally appropriate then. It was not considered the great scandal it is today.

4). Whereas Joseph encouraged people to seek out their own revelation from God on plural marriage, from what I’ve read of the FLDS teachings (in newspapers) they do not encourage people to go directly to God to receive personal revelation on what comes from the Prophet (I could be corrected).

Best,

Jd1

Polygamy by cohersion is obviously wrong but what if it is consensual?

I wonder what Kathleen Flake's opinion would be of the new religious movement called Matrixism that is based on the movie The Matrix. It allows for polygamy and polyandry. Not only that it has changed the traditional Christian sacrament from alcohol to psychedelics. Matrixism maintains that the original manna of the old testament was actual the flour of ergot infected wheat rye. The religion seems very peaceful and environmentally friendly.

I say "here, here!" I think this is well said to point out the FLDS seem to have gone astray from what might have been practiced in Nauvoo and in early Utah. Sadly, in spite of the volumes written, we may never know exactly what kind of polygamy Joseph was really advocating. Joseph seems to have been about choice, contrary to opinion that everyone jumped when he said so. The FLDS seem to be about obedience of the kind that the nay-sayers would attribute to Joseph. If Mr. Jeffs and his associates are so sure they have the right path, then why not let children reach maturity and then make a personal choice. Love freely given is priceless, love taken is rape.

It would help the world understand Mormon polygamy, if Mormons themselves understood it. Some think of polygamy as "a stain we have been trying to live down for 150 years." Others, see it as a heritage to be proud of, as ancestors struggled to harken to revelation.

In any case, it will be interesting to see what a "jury of his peers" turns out to be for Mr. Jeffs.

Mr. Timpson,
I hate to point this out to you, but Warren Jeffs and "the Church's Prophet" are one and the same.

While I agree with your major premise, I do wonder if your representation of the Jeff’s situation is not a bit slanted. In the first instance, the circumstances of the case do deserve “scrupulosity.” As I understand the events, it was not Mr. Jeffs who insisted that the marriage take place. According to court documents, it was the girl’s stepfather and the Church’s prophet who were the driving forces. Mr. Jeffs was the “priest” who carried out their wishes. Now the courts will have to decide if performing this marriage constituted “accessory to rape.” As Mormons will recognize, one of the phrases used in that ceremony is the wording “of your own free will and choice.” This is a phrase the girl in question agreed to. Now the court has the burden to show that after the marriage ceremony the girl was in fact forced to have sex against her will. The case is a complicated and interesting one.

Secondly, you call upon other religions within the Mormon community to denounce Jeffs’ actions as being outside the Mormon tradition of “plural marriage as practiced by our ancestors.” And yet, we find recorded the example of Helen Marr Kimball’s “forced” marriage, at age 14, to Joseph Smith, himself an “older” married man (not 90, but not 19, either). She apparently consented to this marriage, even though she reportedly “hated polygamy,” only after she felt pressure from her parents to create a special bond between their family and Joseph’s. In this respect, the present Jeffs situation mirrors that earlier “ancestral” marriage. However, in the present instance, there is no “plural marriage” involved, just good old American monogamy.

I’m certain that the 70 plus members of Jeffs’ church lined up to testify in his behalf will also quote the teachings from Sec 121, citing numerous instances when this scripture was the very text Jeffs’ specifically encouraged his members to follow. How will that play out in court?

I do applaud your premise. It is high time that members within a religious community said “no” to extremism, and I agree that Jeffs’ brand of Mormonism is extreme. It is also heartening for me to hear a Mormon approach the subject with such openness. Until the LDS church can grapple with its past in a healthy way, instead of hiding its face in the proverbial sands, it will continue to foster and create the very condition that now brings so much embarrassment to it. Driving the FLDS people into exile for fear of prosecution has helped to create this extremism. It also seems to me that it is time for the state of Utah to do the same. The illegal cohabitation statute should be re-written to more nearly mirror the mores in other states. As long as polygamous behavior between consenting adults is defined as a felony, the Utah polygamists will be forced into isolation, and in a way, “forced” to extremism.

Thanks for the interesting post. I'm sorry it drew so much reaction without reflection.

This author is supposed to be some kind of intellectual -- and was actually hired by an institution of higher learning...? It is evident that her presence there is merely to fulfill some affirmative action quota, because her thought processes are devoid of reason and almost completely emotional. Any high school teacher would reject such a paper as much too silly for consideration.

Mind you, there's some places you might feel oppressed, Christians, when people say 'No.'

Take it in that spirit.

Cause we 'evil secularists' really mean it.

When you try to do certain things to us.

It's not 'hate.' It's just...

No.

OK?

Is that what you want, "No?"

Really?

Good.

I'll do my best to hold you to that.

Funny thing is, in 2001, it wasn't so clear that's what you wanted.

Blessed be.

I have often argued that we (mainstream LDS) cannot feel hurt that Protestants don't want to acknowledge us as part of Christendom when we refuse to allow others who believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon to be identified as Mormon. However, I have noticed that the media (and others) seem too happy to search out and publish the negative aspects "Mormon" groups who constitute less than 1/10 of 1 percent of the world's Mormon population. The majority of practicing polygamists in America are Muslim. How many Americans know that modern, educated Muslims practice polygamy? How many know that the Muslim prophet had sex with a nine year old? How many know that the Pope had a secret police force that could abduct Jewish children believed to have converted to Christianity till well into the 19th century? How many know that the Roman Catholic church BURNED the man who first translated the bible into English? How many know that the Southern Baptist convention was made to allow its members to be in good standing and own slaves? Perhaps mainstream LDS are justified in their efforts to restrict the world's use of "Mormon" as long as the outside world seems desperate to restrict its use to the most extreme and unrepresentative forms they can find.

Ms. Flake,
Excellent, as I have come to expect from you. Too many (even within the enclave of "Mormonism") seem to want to segregate themselves as superior to others. This seems, to a certain extent, to even be prevalent in the teachings of Mormonism as some understand them, unfortunately. The idea of different degrees of Heaven seems, at the outset, to promote this idea of superiority until studied more fully. Rather than a promotion of superiority, it is a result of a loving Father rewarding each of his children, individually, according to their actions. Not a "my actions are better than yours" system, but rather, a "my actions are different than yours" system. As Christ himself said, "In my Father's house are many mansions". I would like to think that some of those are spanish-style villas, and some are half-timbered cottages, and some are tepees, and some are [fill in YOUR idea of a comfortable home]. Feelings of superiority (pride) are indeed, as pointed out more than a decade ago by President Benson, THE prevailing problem in the hearts and minds of people today.