Calling All Religions to Compassion

TO ALL ATHEISTS:

WATCH THE GREATEST DEBATE OF THE 20TH CENTURY BETWEEN AN ATHEIST VERSUS A CATHOLIC.

IT IS A DEBATE BETWEEN CLARENCE DARROW THE FAMOUS SCOPE'S LAWYER WHO FACED WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYANT AND G.K. CHESTERTON.

SEE THE 30 MINUTE DOCUDRAMA AT 11:00 AM TODAY 11/19/0 TO ALL ATHEISTS:

WATCH THE GREATEST DEBATE OF THE 20TH CENTURY BETWEEN AN ATHEIST VERSUS A CATHOLIC.

IT IS A DEBATE BETWEEN CLARENCE DARROW THE FAMOUS SCOPE'S LAWYER WHO FACED WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYANT AND G.K. CHESTERTON.

SEE THE 30 MINUTE DOCUDRAMA AT 11:00 A.M. 11/19/08 ON THE LINK BELOW

http://www.ewtn.com/audiovideo/index.asp

Christ said the two great commandments are “Love your neighbor as you love yourself, and as Christ loves you,” and “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Augustine writes, “Lord you made us out of your love for us. Our hearts are restless, until we rest in thee.” The end of human life is to be in God and God in us.

God made us out of His love for us and He made man to His own image and likeness. He made man to love the Good. That is why the greatest love we can have on earth is to love one another because we are made in the image of God.

Jesus said that there is no greater love for another than one who lays down his life for another. God so love man that He gave His Son up so that man may be saved from eternal darkness and death.

Moreover, before Jesus ascended into heaven, He gave us the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes that directed man to love one another and the rewards that await you for doing so.

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat005.htm#verse3

In addition, God gave man the Ten Commandments that from the fourth to the tenth, they command man to be charitable to his neighbor by loving thy father and mother, not to lie, murder, commit adultery, or covet thy neighbor’s wife or his goods.

" Mary_Cunningham:

"ON faith is a nasty place if you *have* faith."

Actually, it's a place you come to accuse people of other faiths, or different interpretations of your own of being faithless, say nasty things about them, and act all outraged no one throws rosepetals at your feet for it. ,

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,388 combat 805 non-combat) and 88,851 – 96,976
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

6. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

7. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

8. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

9. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

10. Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

11. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

12. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

13. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

14. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

15. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Dear Ms Armstrong

As soon as I read about your plan for formulating a charter of compassion, I was reminded instantly of the work of Professor Hans Kueng at the Global Ethic Foundation and its comprehensive document accepted at the World Parliament of Religions: Declaration Toward a Global Ethic. (Aside: I had mentioned that document and posted a link to it on this forum over 18 months ago when an atheist blogger, with the username, Acrapist, and I managed to finally agree - it goes without saying we disagreed on every other point all the time - even though God is taken for a completely dispensable entity by all atheists, ethics is not. Since 6 billion people with 6 billion + 1 different ideas of right and wrong cannot not build any kind of international society, there was a need for global ethics in an ever more interdependent world.)

http://www.global-ethic.org/dat-english/index.htm

http://www.global-ethic.org/pdf_decl/Decl_english.pdf

Although the comprehensive document was accepted the World Parliament of Religions fifteen years ago, it would seem that its existence is little known. In my personal opinion there is an urgent need to disseminate that comprehensive document, which has covered every aspect of ethics based on all religions and has been accepted unanimously at the World Parliament, through the United Nations, to all the religious and secular authorities in all member countries. The religious groups and religious leaders reading this forum could do their part in spreading the good word to their own religious communities.

A new Charter on Compassion should cover new ground, areas that have not been yet covered by the document that already exists, without repeating what has been already accepted by an international body, The World Parliament of Religions.

Wishing you great success in your endeavor!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Invading Iraq without any justification , without consulting people of Iraq at any stage is good example of UNCOMPASSION

And hellocel,

You tell us nothing about yourself. We know what and who you don't like:

Arabs
Islam
Catholics
English Catholics

And NOTHING about what you believe. NOTHING about your own background. Just some drivel about currencies. Why then should anyone bother with what you say?

St. Anne Line

"English martyr, d. 27 Feb., 1601. She was the daughter of William Heigham of Dunmow, Essex, a gentleman of means and an ardent Calvinist, and when she and her brother announced their intention of becoming Catholics both were disowned and disinherited. Anne married Roger Line, a convert like herself, and shortly after their marriage he was apprehended for attending Mass. After a brief confinement he was released and permitted to go into exile in Flanders, where he died in 1594. When Father John Gerard established a house of refuge for priests in London, Mrs. Line was placed in charge."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09270b.htm

I tend to skip your stuff hello cell. I made an exception for Anne Line. Elizabeth was personally involved in torturing Catholics, there are documents from her asking if the tortures were 'strong' enough, her treatment of Robert Southwell was so brutal it raised an outcry throughout Europe. So if in your eyes, she was a compassionate queen maybe I guess it depends on how you define 'compassionate'.

Dear Mary Cunningham,

Islam/submission curses Holy Trinity.
Islam/submission curses Son of God.
Islam/submission rejects Bible,Second Coming and Crucifixion.

Anne Line was a Calvinist.
Elizabeth I,Queen of England and Ireland,1558-1603,First Protestant Royal in England was the most compassionate one in history and she didnt drink *Bloody Mary*.
Shakespeare's poem,The Phoenix and the Tuurtle was nice,but lets not forget he was a close friend of Elizabeth I

Did you listen my advise ?
Did you sell your Pounds and buy Dollar ?
I thing,you didnt.It was 1.72 and now 1.50,you would turn the corner.

Jamil51,

Please keep posting. For a believer--you a Muslim, I a Catholic--their faith is beautiful and holy.

Beauty, truth, and rarity,
Grace in all simplicity,
Here enclosed in cinders lie.
.......................................
Truth may seem, but cannot be:
Beauty brag, but 'tis not she;
Truth and beauty buried be.

Shakespeare wrote that about a martyred saint (Anne Line, hung at Tyburn in 1601) and a doomed religion. And he was right--Catholicism would continue forbidden in England for almost three centuries.

It's hard to see it so deliberately and incessantly smeared in these blogs. It really is.

justillthen:

Arabs enriched some parts of India with their culture enormously. So they did give back a lot in return for all that they borrowed. The only difference is what is Arabic-Islamic culture in India is known as Arabic-Islamic. Due credit is given to the origin of the great culture of the Arabs.

Similarly when Buddhism went to the Far East, China etc, and integrated with their regional religions and cultures, due credit was given to India as the land of origin of Buddhism and Buddhist philosophy.

Some Adopted Persons- God bless their compassionate parents!

Andy Berlin - entrepreneur: chairman of Berlin Cameron & Partners
Anthony Williams - politician
Aristotle - philosopher
Art Linkletter - comedian
Bo Diddley - musician, performer
Buffy Sainte-Marie - musician, actress
Carl-Theodor Dreyer - Danish film director
Charlotte Anne Lopez - Miss Teen USA
Christina Crawford - author
Clarissa Pinkola Estes - author
Crazy Horse - Lakota war chief
Dan O'Brien - decathlete
Daunte Culpepper - football player
Dave Thomas - entrepreneur: founder of Wendy's
Debbie Harry - singer
D.M.C. - hip hop artist
Edgar Allan Poe - poet, writer
Edward Albee - playwright
Eleanor Roosevelt - First Lady
Eric Dickerson - athlete
Faith Daniels - news anchor
Faith Hill - country singer
Freddie Bartholomew - actor
George Washington Carver - inventor
Greg Louganis - athlete
James MacArthur - actor
James Michener - author
Jean Jacques Rousseau - philosopher
Jett Williams - country singer and author
Jim Palmer - athlete
John J. Audubon - naturalist
John Hancock - politician
John Lennon - musician
Langston Hughes - poet and writer
Larry Ellison - entrepreneur: chief executive of Oracle
Lee Majors - actor
Leo Tolstoy - writer
Les Brown - motivational speaker
Lynnette Cole - Miss USA 2000
Malcolm X - civil rights leader

justillthen:

Prolife:

"That is precisely the point. Your attempt at deflecting the credit for mathematics borrowed from India."
Screw the 'credit' for mathmatics. As I said, we all build upon what came before. Even from asia. Though I am not conceding any credit. I refer to this quote of yours:

"European historians and anthropologists who did not follow up on where the Arabs got their mathematics before passing it off as their own to Europe, were partially informed."
So YOU are now some authority that eclipses a century of research. Good enough, Oh Blessed One.
I DO NOT CARE WHO IS SEMINAL IN MATHMATICS. DO YOU HEAR?

I have learned that you hear nothing, pro-ignoranceoflife.

I appologize for my lack of compassion for your insistance on ignorance. This is not about origins, again. It is about respect for the gifts and blessings that diverse cultures and religions bring to the Table of Man. God gave all life, and gave all the opportunities and possibilities and directions that came to them. God gave to those in the middle east those lands and that world, and Muhammad. and Islam. Through the ages the muslim world had great highs, where they were at the pinnacle of science and technology and culture in the world, and then at the bottom of the barrel...
So it is in life...

You cannot even give the simple grace of recognition.

That is the value of your virtues.

The discussion is on compassion, prolife. I lack it with you, as I find you dishonest and so an unworthy compatriot in debate.

In this string of dialogue with you I am finished.
I wish you peace.

November 16, 2008 11:39 PM

________________________________________

It is a pity you choose to misinterpret me, or maybe you just misunderstand me.

I duely appreciate all the achievements of Arabs, before and after the birth of Islam, what they borrowed from India and what they did on their own. I only raised objections to everything being attributed to Islam. I did specifically mention there is such a thing as great Arabian culture influenced by Islam, which is quite different to European, Chinese and Indian culture (all of which are unique and great in themselves).

Notsogreatscot:

ProLifeActivistBorn59 wrote: "As a Pro-Life-Activist I do not wish to enter into a discussion about religions"

Please take note of the purpose of this board - "A conversation on religion".

November 17, 2008 5:47 PM

__________________________________________

OK.

Please take note that my Username is Pro Life Activist Born 59.

Entering into a discussion about religion with that username could cause great confusion, especially if I intend to be pompous, preachy, holier-than-thou etc.

persiflage:

Prolife - you continually show yourself to be self-righteous, pompous, and sanctimonious. Did I mention preachy and holier-than-thou??

You've got religion, you don't need religion.

However, they need your religion in China - a country that has just reported 400 million abortions (many forced) in the past 30 years, with a population of 1.4 billion and growing - so much for the effects of Buddhism, Taoism, and the glories of the ancient Chinese civilization.

My recommendation: Adjust your perspective and grow up. The brow-beating is falling on deaf ears, as it always does with anyone beyond the age of 10.

Here's another unpleasant truth for your consideration - extremism takes many forms.

November 17, 2008 7:06 AM

_______________________________________________

And did I tell you that you are *sometimes,* I repeat *sometimes* (especially when you preach your own version of Buddhism and bash Christianity), a half-baked know-it-all? Investing three and half minutes on a google search is all it takes to verify many things. No PhD from an Ivy League University required, that even ordinary mortals like me can manage to appear pompous while quoting google sources.

I don't recall asking anyone to follow in the footsteps of China's One-Child-Only policy. I'm anti-abortion as a constitutional right and for convenience, remember?

Remember too China is Communist-Atheist. We can say on reliable grounds that not many people are practicing Confusiano- Taoist-Buddhism there and that Atheistic-Communism has been the state religion for many years. They are not very likely to be impressed with my anti-abortion religion.

I really don't see any ground for pro-abortionists like you to criticize China for their stand on abortion. (They have a real problem with population explosion and poverty among the masses is real not imagined as in the US.) The only justification I have heard so far is that a woman should be the one to choose to kill her unborn child. It falls on deaf ears when I respond that the result for the unborn child is the same. It is killed whether on the orders of the state or on the order of the mother.

My posts are addressed those who are still capable of learning human embryology and feeling compassion for the unborn child that most hardened pro-abortionists seem to have for the right to life of mosquitoes and fungi.

Christianity: Jesus is Lord
Islam: Jesus is a Prophet
Judaism: Jesus was neither a prophet nor is Lord
Atheism: Jesus is dead; was a delusioned lunatic
Agnostics: Whatever man, just leave me alone
Other Religions: Jesus Who?

Where is the common ground Karen? According to the Atheist, compassion equates to death. Millions of years of evolution is survival of the fittest. Kill or be killed. If there is no retribution after the grave, why should anybody care? It's just natural selection. We're just animals. If natural selection and random processes deal you a bad hand, tough luck. Listen to the humanist: "stop worrying about it and enjoy life." So stop boring us with compassion Karen, it's just a low end defense mechanism derived from evolution of the weaker species. Stop worrying about the problems of other people. They need to either evolve stronger or surrender to natural selection. Enjoy yourself while you can. Instead of donating to charity, go get drunk and have sex with someone you hardly know tonight. People do it all the time. You'll feel better.

jamil51:

Thank you for your post, jamil, and for the beautiful prayer that you offered. It is deeply appreciated, as is the time you took to offer it to another...
Peace be with you.
Justin

This is a much-needed effort, and I applaud Karen Armstrong's efforts as well as her writings.

However, her project is also evidence of a certain moral bankruptcy in religion. Why does so much violence, hatred, and fear emerge from people who claim to be religious? The worldwide and historical evidence seems to be unequivocal: the physical and psychological harm that religion has done and continues to do to human beings exceeds the good it brings into the world.

The extraordinary irony is that most founding religious texts do urge values such as compassion, patience, tolerance, and love. However, so many religious adherents seem to be full of hatred for those who are different from them, and eager to support violence.

Religious adherents often seem to fixate on one particular issue. (Historically, in many cultures, this issue has been sexuality). This myopia often blinds them to their own egregious failures to acknowledge and adhere to vast portions of the very texts they hold sacred. Most religious people, both in the U.S. and abroad, seem to be extraordinarily selective in which moral tenets they follow. Compassion is certainly frequently ignored, but I hold little hope that those who are religious will pay attention to this value.

justillthen :
Mary_Cunningham:

"ON faith is a nasty place if you *have* faith."

I have read comments given by both of you.

First to Mary

Mary is right and I agree with her.
You argue with reasonable persons who have respect what you think and then argue with you in a decent mannner. Here you find people who straightaway began to insult what is so dear to you. They have no faith hence they have no case to challange others faith. Why I have to give them explainations over explainations, clarifications over clarification and still there assualt sees no end. Acts depends on intentions and they never have good intentions. Hence I do not want to waste my time on them.

Justillthen:
My motto is Know thy Creator, Know yourself and Serve the mankind.
Knowing the Creater:
He says People asks were I am, tell them I am near you, listen to you when to call me, therefore stay on the straight path.
On another place He says I am nearer to you than your jaguar vein.
I am sure if you supplicate Him with the following prayer, God willingly ,sure He will show you His ways.

ALLAH in the name of The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.

All praise unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds.

The most Affectionate, The Merciful.

Master of the Day of Requital.

We worship You alone, and beg You alone for help.

Guide us in the straight path.

The path of those whom You have favoured. Not of those who have earned Your anger and nor of those who have gone astray".

Commentary:
Abu Huraira has heard God's messenger declare that God most high had said, " I have divided the prayer into two halves between me and my servant, and my servant will receive what he asks."

When the servant says, " Praise be to God, the Lord of the universe, " God most high says, " My servant has praised me."

When he says, "The compassionate, the Merciful," God most high says, "My servant has lauded me."

When he says, "Possessor of the day of judgment," He says," My servant has glorified me."

When he says, "Thee do we worship and of Thee do we ask help," He says, "This is between me and my servant, and my servant will receive what he asks."

Then when he says, "Guide us in the straight path, the path of those to whom Thou art generous, not of those with whom Thou art angry nor of those who go astray," He says, "This is for my servant, and my servant will receive what he asks."

Mary_Cunningham:

"ON faith is a nasty place if you *have* faith."

Mary, I disagree. I have faith, since I was quite young. Catholic, born again, and various other inquiries into 'alternative' paths to realizing God in my life on a daily basis. I am grateful for my life and have no doubt that I have deepened my relationship with God in an amazing way. I literally have had times that I know I walked with that Presence next to me. In me....
The challenge here is letting my faith get stretched by contrary beliefs, and to be willing to consider alternative voices than my own assumptions and certainties.
Faith in God is by nature indefinable. Can't prove God even exists... I can believe it, and know it for myself, but God does not reveal himself where belief is beyond question. There is always uncertainty. And none of us can claim with anything but "faith" to know Gods Will and Gods Plan. To claim that is invariably arrogance. In my view.
To Know the Unknowable...
It is one of the reasons that I have departed from Absolutist Faiths. I no longer believe in anything absolute in the created world... Only diversity is absolutely valid. So it follows for me that spiritual paths back to the Divine are personal and unique.
I do not use On Faith to validate my preconceived beliefs. I use it to see if I can stretch them and include more.

"People's Republic of China: abortions and live births by region
compiled by Wm. Robert Johnston
3 August 2005

The PRC government releases little raw data on live births and birth rates for regions. The following regional abortion/live birth figures for the PRC are mostly derived estimates. Live births are derived from population figures and raw birth rates reported by the PRC. Abortion figures are derived from the live birth estimates and abortion rates given by Thomas Scharping (2003).

The live birth figures here are of limited accuracy, as it is believed that the figures released by the PRC are often incomplete and/or inaccurate. PRC abortion-related figures at the regional level are known to be incomplete based on comparison to nationwide totals reported by the PRC's National Population and Family Planning Commission, which in turn may not have accurate figures. "

And from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7000931.stm

"Because China has worked hard over the last 30 years, we have 400 million fewer people," said Zhang Weiqing, minister in charge of the National Population and Family Planning Commission."

Note: The comment does not say China had 400 million abortions to accomplish their reduction in births. Birth control, sterilizations (some forced unfortunately) and abortion, all played a role. There are no data showing a breakdown in the methods.

There have been significant "female" cleansing in China and elsewhere by abortion and infanticide.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/16/content_349051.htm

This has caused a significant imbalance in the male/female ratio in China to the point that China is now rewarding couples who have females.

Whatever the abortion rate is in China, it is too high. Again is that pill to control the sex drive the answer??

ProLifeActivistBorn59 wrote: "As a Pro-Life-Activist I do not wish into a discussion about religions"

Please take note of the purpose of this board - "A conversation on religion".

ON faith is a nasty place if you *have* faith.

Sorry, I call it NO faith so often I slipped. But the published name is ON FAITH. (I believe the designer of the site was dyslexic and made of mistake wanted to call it NO FAITH but wrote ON FAITH instead).

Jamil51wrote:

===>There are some persons, cleaver enough not to disclose their own creed or ideas.They keep attacking the faith of the opponents, they keep on asking the others to clarify and give explainations. What is their qualifications and who make them examiners===<

No faith is a nasty place is you *have* faith. That is because two of the sponsors of the blog are atheist. The average poster is also an atheist and, as such, tremendously hostile to traditional religion, especially Catholicism.

Farnaz - thanks very much.

_______________

Prolife - you continually show yourself to be self-righteous, pompous, and sanctimonious. Did I mention preachy and holier-than-thou??

You've got religion, you don't need religion.

However, they need your religion in China - a country that has just reported 400 million abortions (many forced) in the past 30 years, with a population of 1.4 billion and growing - so much for the effects of Buddhism, Taoism, and the glories of the ancient Chinese civilization.

My recommendation: Adjust your perspective and grow up. The brow-beating is falling on deaf ears, as it always does with anyone beyond the age of 10.

Here's another unpleasant truth for your consideration - extremism takes many forms.

Karen Armstrong

If all if us believe in compassion then signing a charter makes no difference.
Purpose of education should not be to provide manpower to the capitalist engine but to develop individual personality imbibing ethical and moral values. Compassion is a personal act otherwise the collective will of the people is misused. Look at lies about WMD, war on Iraq and the public opinion.
Signing a charter of compassion by few officials is no way a biding of any individual. Compassion is a Voulantry act.

Hmmm, the Immoral Majority's BO and his wife are getting a dog. Adopting an "unwanted" child would be the better option and would show that BO really does have some compassion.

Hi Persiflage,

Here is the book I recommend on female Sufi mystics:

"The Female Voice in Sufi Ritual" by Shemeem Burney Abbas. University of Texas Press.

Farnaz

Prolife:

"That is precisely the point. Your attempt at deflecting the credit for mathematics borrowed from India."
Screw the 'credit' for mathmatics. As I said, we all build upon what came before. Even from asia. Though I am not conceding any credit. I refer to this quote of yours:

"European historians and anthropologists who did not follow up on where the Arabs got their mathematics before passing it off as their own to Europe, were partially informed."
So YOU are now some authority that eclipses a century of research. Good enough, Oh Blessed One.
I DO NOT CARE WHO IS SEMINAL IN MATHMATICS. DO YOU HEAR?

I have learned that you hear nothing, pro-ignoranceoflife.

I appologize for my lack of compassion for your insistance on ignorance. This is not about origins, again. It is about respect for the gifts and blessings that diverse cultures and religions bring to the Table of Man. God gave all life, and gave all the opportunities and possibilities and directions that came to them. God gave to those in the middle east those lands and that world, and Muhammad. and Islam. Through the ages the muslim world had great highs, where they were at the pinnacle of science and technology and culture in the world, and then at the bottom of the barrel...
So it is in life...

You cannot even give the simple grace of recognition.

That is the value of your virtues.

The discussion is on compassion, prolife. I lack it with you, as I find you dishonest and so an unworthy compatriot in debate.

In this string of dialogue with you I am finished.
I wish you peace.

persiflage:

For those interested in Augustine's early religious orientation, see the link below:

In the religion of Mani, you will find startling similarities to Buddhism. Eventually these teachings were declared heretical by the early Catholic Church - perhaps because these two religions were in serious competition for preeminence in the very early days of Christianity. One wonders how much Buddhism one could find in the tenets of Christianity if one made a valient effort!

Upon hearing the Sermon on the Mount and the source of it's origins, a famous Zen master was heard to reply '....that is a remarkable man, and very close to Buddhahood...'

It does make one wonder if Christianity has 'revealed' all of the truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

________________________________________________

I'm sure if one looks closely enough one would find some similarities between the religion of Africa with Manichaeism. One only has to study the religion of the Native Americans carefully to find similarities there too. And yes, elements of Buddhism too or whatever else. I'm sure Muslims would find Islamic influence in every religion too.

And all of it proves....what???????

persiflage:

Please see the link below as regards early Buddhism in China - abeit deeply influenced by the indigenous Taoism....due in part to startlingly similar views on the nature of Reality.

Of course Bodhidharma is said to have brought Zen to China (from India) in the 6th century C.E. or thereabouts - but much of this tale is the stuff of legend....although debatably Chan/Zen reached it's pinnacle during the Tang dynasty period (7th to 9th century C.E) moving on to Japan some time after - where the great Rinzai and Soto schools of Zen continue to flourish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_China

November 16, 2008 1:54 PM

_____________________________________________

It is common knowledge that Buddhism was taken to China. Emperor Ashoka is credited with sending Buddhist missionaries to the Far East. It takes only common sense to realize that Buddhism integrated the local religions into its practice, not just in China but also in Japan and other Far Eastern countries.

However, the history of China is considerably older than Buddhism. It was an ancient and illustrious culture before Buddhism was brought into the land.

However

persiflage:

For those interested in Augustine's early religious orientation, see the link below:

In the religion of Mani, you will find startling similarities to Buddhism. Eventually these teachings were declared heretical by the early Catholic Church - perhaps because these two religions were in serious competition for preeminence in the very early days of Christianity. One wonders how much Buddhism one could find in the tenets of Christianity if one made a valient effort!

Upon hearing the Sermon on the Mount and the source of it's origins, a famous Zen master was heard to reply '....that is a remarkable man, and very close to Buddhahood...'

It does make one wonder if Christianity has 'revealed' all of the truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

November 16, 2008 2:12 PM

___________________________________________

As a Pro-Life-Activist I do not wish into a discussion about religions.

However, let me say this unpleasant truth unpleasantly: your half-baked knowledge and understanding of Buddhism is not a good thing my friend, especially when you use your ignorance to bash Christianity with it.

justillthen:

ProLifeActivistBorn59:

Now now, prolife.
I have made it clear the point of these topics for me. It NEVER was to assert the origin of mathematics of science, the origin of the concept of zero, the original universities... YOU may have made it be so, halozcel1 certainly did as well, and mary cunningham. I stated that it was beyond my point credit for early mathematical theories. I was seeking to give credit where it was due, and you looked to deflect any credit aimed at the middle east re scientific, agricultural and cultural advances that they had to India, to china, to anywhere else.

Portions of my posts:

"Once again, this does not matter to me in this dialogue. I explained twice my position and need not go again. I am getting bored.
This dialogue is on compassion and the benefits or deficits of finding commonality in compassion."

I would go on but have limited time. I was not "putting down" european culture or incorrectly praising middle eastern culture. Comparisons of the cultural and scientific states of those regions, during the middle ages, are well documented and stand on their own merit and the merits of the historians and anthropologists that have written on it. It is not changed by your deflection of credit to asia.

__________________________________________________

That is precisely the point. Your attempt at deflecting the credit for mathematics borrowed from India. European historians and anthropologists who did not follow up on where the Arabs got their mathematics before passing it off as their own to Europe, were partially informed. Other Europeans who went to India and had the opportunity to discover the original source of the mathematics have filled in on the missing knowledge.

I was merely pointing to the gap in knowledge that usually pops up in the discussion of Islam and the Middle East. All the ancient cultures of the Middle East were pagan, not Islamic. Islam integrated and absorbed not only pagan Middle East culture but also the well established Christian culture, in addition to Jewish influence in that part of the world.

This one's for Karen Armstrong and Astoria:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxSZlBHCUH0&fmt=18

. . .the prophet told us we should tolerate
the people and the things that make me want to hate
Allah have a little mixed mercy on me
to see some beauty in this human pageantry
Jesus Christ came down here as a living man
if he can live a life of virtue then I hope I can
do unto others as you would have returned
come back here and repeat until you've

learned

learned

learned . . .

Bun-Bun,

Read Rushdie's "The Hair of the Prophet." He is one of the few Muslims whom you seem to respect, and make no mistake about it, he is a Muslim. In this brilliant fable, you may find some help for your Cranio-Rectal Disease whilst you await surgery.

Poor Farnaz, will she ever survive in today's discriminatory world???

If I were recommending reading matter for CCNL (Bun-Bun), I would suggest Rushdie's "The Hair of the Prophet," a short story that focuses on the dangers of idolatry, a theme pervasive in both Islam and Judaism. Bun's worship of idols has brought him to the abysmal intellectual desert in which he resideth for some time.

JUSTILLTHEN: "This forum is on compassion, and the viability of conversing on it between religious paradigms. If we cannot accept what is good and well known about others then it is a negation of others, and contrary to progressing compassion."

Exactly on point.

JUSTILLTHEN: "This forum is on compassion, and the viability of conversing on it between religious paradigms. If we cannot accept what is good and well known about others then it is a negation of others, and contrary to progressing compassion."

Exactly on point.

ProLifeActivistBorn59:

"Juststillthen:

I don't know why providing you with additional information on the topics you touched upon constitutes lack of compassion. And lack of compassion towards Muslims at that!"

Now now, prolife.
I have made it clear the point of these topics for me. It NEVER was to assert the origin of mathematics of science, the origin of the concept of zero, the original universities... YOU may have made it be so, halozcel1 certainly did as well, and mary cunningham. I stated that it was beyond my point credit for early mathmatical theories. I was seeking to give credit where it was due, and you looked to deflect any credit aimed at the middle east re scientific, agricultural and cultural advances that they had to India, to china, to anywhere else.
Portions of my posts:

"Once again, this does not matter to me in this dialogue. I explained twice my position and need not go again. I am getting bored.
This dialogue is on compassion and the benefits or deficits of finding commonality in compassion."

"My post to halozcel1 was to counter his attempt to discount Rumis' compassion by comparing it to the suggestion of fanaticism in present day Konya. Indeed muslims at that time were far advanced culturally and scientifically to dark ages christians. Fact."

I would go on but have limited time. I was not "putting down" european culture or incorrectly praising middle eastern culture. Comparisons of the cultural and scientific states of those regions, during the middle ages, are well documented and stand on their own merit and the merits of the historians and anthropologists that have written on it. It is not changed by your deflection of credit to asia.
This forum is on compassion, and the viability of conversing on it between religious paradigms. If we cannot accept what is good and well known about others then it is a negation of others, and contrary to progressing compassion.

For those interested in Augustine's early religious orientation, see the link below:

In the religion of Mani, you will find startling similarities to Buddhism. Eventually these teachings were declared heretical by the early Catholic Church - perhaps because these two religions were in serious competition for preeminence in the very early days of Christianity. One wonders how much Buddhism one could find in the tenets of Christianity if one made a valient effort!

Upon hearing the Sermon on the Mount and the source of it's origins, a famous Zen master was heard to reply '....that is a remarkable man, and very close to Buddhahood...'

It does make one wonder if Christianity has 'revealed' all of the truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN - I'm shocked that you would make such a statement, given that you say you are a follower/admirer? of The Compassionate One's religion.

You say:

....'Where is the competition? Chinese and Indian cultures are great ancient cultures but have nothing in common. It is the same with Islam influenced ME culture and Christianity influenced European culture'.
______________

Please see the link below as regards early Buddhism in China - abeit deeply influenced by the indigenous Taoism....due in part to startlingly similar views on the nature of Reality.

Of course Bodhidharma is said to have brought Zen to China (from India) in the 6th century C.E. or thereabouts - but much of this tale is the stuff of legend....although debatably Chan/Zen reached it's pinnacle during the Tang dynasty period (7th to 9th century C.E) moving on to Japan some time after - where the great Rinzai and Soto schools of Zen continue to flourish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_China

CCNL :"BTW, how goes your reading of the books of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sir Salman Rushdie?"

Sir Salman Rushdie's "Haroun and the Sea of Stories" is a children's classic worthy of comparison to Lewis Carroll's "Alice" books.

Victoria

There are some persons, cleaver enough not to disclose their own creed or ideas.They keep attacking the faith of the opponents, they keep on asking the others to clarify and give explainations. What is their qualifications and who make them examiners.
Serious discussion is most welcome but use of offensive language and disrespect for other's religion cannot be appreciated.
No one else, let alone the hate mongers, knows the religion which one follows.
Abusive language,mixed with pack of lies can impress no one.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

As requested:

You noted in the main thread:

"This is the Fatiha. The first sura(book) in the Qur'an and the prayer that all Muslims say for each raka, or single prayer-throughout the 5 times a day. "

In reality, it is simply more brainwash to keep Muslims uneducated and uninformed.

BTW, how goes your reading of the books of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sir Salman Rushdie?

An excerpt to add to your Fatiha:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!" is the truth?????

p.47 Infidel, paperback edition

ASTORIA:

Prolife- maybe you missed this in my post before-

The first concept of sequestering the sick from
the healthy and the first hopsital was also a contribution of muslim scientist.
Without Islamic universities (the first in the world was at Fez Morocco) the european renaissance could not have taken place, as that was where all the europeans sent their children to be educated.
St. Augustine's writings reveal a great deal of that influence.

November 15, 2008 11:31 PM

_________________________________________

If you mean Saint Augustine of Hippo, a pagan convert to Christianity, who became a doctor of the Catholic Church, was born November 13, 354 and died August 28, 430. "He was the Bishop of Hippo Regius, and was a philosopher and theologian. Augustine, a Latin church father, is one of the most important figures in the development of Western Christianity. Augustine was heavily influenced by the Neo-Platonism of Plotinus. He framed the concepts of original sin and just war. When the Roman Empire in the West was starting to disintegrate, Augustine developed the concept of the Church as a spiritual City of God, distinct from the material City of Man. His thought profoundly influenced the medieval worldview."

How could Saint Augustine, who died at least a hundred fifty years BEFORE before Mohammad was even born have written anything about a religion that didn't exist in his time? The University of Al-Karaouine, supposedly the first secular university that awarded degrees (there were many religious centers of learning many centuries older than that in Europe, China and India and other ancient cultures) was founded only in 859 A.D. On what basis anyone claim that Europeans (all Europeans at that!) went to a Muslim Morocco to get their learning? European culture is completely different to Islamic culture.

Where is the competition? Chinese and Indian cultures are great ancient cultures but have nothing in common. It is the same with Islam influenced ME culture and Christianity influenced European culture.

ASTORIA: "Robin you certainly are an eclectic little punk/rock and roller/classicist. I am going to napster. (although they didnt have Thompsons version of "Kiss" tho)"

I am the compleat musical omnivore. I contain multitudes and other social handicaps, the greatest being literacy. The doleful Mr. Thompson's rendition of the Purple One's "Kiss" appears on "1000 Years of Popular Music", an overview ranging from "Sumer is Icumen In" to "Oops! I Did It Again." Lawdy sing coo-coo.

Also I elaborated a bit on compassions importance in Islam on the main page, and luckily CCNL or no bashers have torn it apart yet...

Prolife- maybe you missed this in my post before-

The first concept of sequestering the sick from
the healthy and the first hopsital was also a contribution of muslim scientist.
Without Islamic universities (the first in the world was at Fez Morocco) the european renaissance could not have taken place, as that was where all the europeans sent their children to be educated.
St. Augustine's writings reveal a great deal of that influence.

Don't make a competition out of it dear. One isn't bad because another is good. There is room in this big world for recognition and appreciation of the accomplsihments of folks even if there beliefs or culture differ from ones own.

Diminishin gthe importance of Muslim or Arabic contributions to science and medicine takes nothing away from Christondems accomplishments.

Robin you certainly are an eclectic little punk/rock and roller/classicist. I am going to napster. (although they didnt have Thompsons version of "Kiss" tho)

Juststillthen:

I don't know why providing you with additional information on the topics you touched upon constitutes lack of compassion. And lack of compassion towards Muslims at that!

justillthen:

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN59:

Why is it that you continue to seek to negate the positive and constructive additions that middle eastern muslims did in the Middle Ages? I have to guess at this point that you are vested in negation and villification of them.
That SOME of the muslim population of todays middle east are fanatics and violent does not mean they ALL are! And does not take away from the good that their forebears did centuries ago.
Frankly, if you follow valid history over the last two hundred years in the middle east, you might just see that the fanatics have something to be angry about. And our western hands are bloody and unclean in the causes of their misery.

Once again, this does not matter to me in this dialogue. I explained twice my position and need not go again. I am getting bored.
This dialogue is on compassion and the benefits or deficits of finding commonality in compassion. To do so requires, as with all honest debate, openness and the willingness to hear opposing viewpoints. To 'hear' is critical, as well as 'willingness'.
I have my own awareness of the history of europe or the reasons for the dark ages. Your reference to Constantine was three centuries before Mohammad. I was referring to post Middle ages, crusades and post crusades, which was considered a golden age in persia and the middle east. European 'doctors' were 'bleeding' the sick to rid the body of evil in the blood! and using leeches to suck the evil out of the blood! :-) Science and medicine were far beyond that in the middle east at the time.
Again, we build upon what comes before.
Contemplate compassion. Muslims deserve it as much as evangelicals need it.
I am bored. You will not have peace with many of your enemies until you are willing to.
Peace.

November 15, 2008 1:57 PM

______________________________________

You are free to get bored.

But you could read up about systems of medicine in China and India anyway.

justillthen:

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN59:

Why is it that you continue to seek to negate the positive and constructive additions that middle eastern muslims did in the Middle Ages? I have to guess at this point that you are vested in negation and villification of them.
That SOME of the muslim population of todays middle east are fanatics and violent does not mean they ALL are! And does not take away from the good that their forebears did centuries ago.
Frankly, if you follow valid history over the last two hundred years in the middle east, you might just see that the fanatics have something to be angry about. And our western hands are bloody and unclean in the causes of their misery.

Once again, this does not matter to me in this dialogue. I explained twice my position and need not go again. I am getting bored.
This dialogue is on compassion and the benefits or deficits of finding commonality in compassion. To do so requires, as with all honest debate, openness and the willingness to hear opposing viewpoints. To 'hear' is critical, as well as 'willingness'.
I have my own awareness of the history of europe or the reasons for the dark ages. Your reference to Constantine was three centuries before Mohammad. I was referring to post Middle ages, crusades and post crusades, which was considered a golden age in persia and the middle east. European 'doctors' were 'bleeding' the sick to rid the body of evil in the blood! and using leeches to suck the evil out of the blood! :-) Science and medicine were far beyond that in the middle east at the time.
Again, we build upon what comes before.
Contemplate compassion. Muslims deserve it as much as evangelicals need it.
I am bored. You will not have peace with many of your enemies until you are willing to.
Peace.

November 15, 2008 1:57 PM

_________________________________________

I have no quarrel with you. I just like to add my two cents when I happen to notice some information that could be improved upon from other reliable sources.

You tried to put down European culture in your attempt to praise Arab achievements and gave false information about mathematics to boot.

Learning was confined to religious groups in the ancient days. In Europe learning was confined to Christian monasteries and other religious institutions. That is where Europeans got their learning - in Christian institutions.

There are ancient centers of learning in India and China which predate Islam by many centuries. Look up Takshila/Takshasila, Varanasi/Hindu Banares University, Nalanda University etc. Google ancient centers for learning in China.

All of the ancient centers of learning are associated with religions.

Secular universities awarding degrees is a later development. Europe has plenty of old universities.

Yes!You know this is for you

Sample the compassion by reading the comments on this page. You will find such hypocrates, who in the name of free expression, use abusive language shamelessly.
They should open their upper chamber,take off their "colored" glasses and give a chance to fresh air to enter in.
Have compassion, pls don't stinck.

ASTORIA :"Great Scott- I don't even own one of them there I-pod machines!"

I just took a quick look at my metallic green nanopod, and the first song to appear was "Orgasm Addict" by the Buzzcocks which I'm sure will both date me in some quarters and damn me to hell in others. The oldest musical representative is Tampa Red's "Let Me Play With Your Poodle". The most heretical has to be Patti Smith's "Gloria", though Screamin' Jay Hawkins "I Put A Spell On You" is clearly in contention.

I suppose I should get Chanticleer's performance of Josquin du Pre's "Ave Maria" on my little musical beastie before I grow horns and a tail.

Thank you for that post and the links, ASTORIA . Very nice.
Justin

Great Scott- I don't even own one of them there I-pod machines!

Zanderbob- That was beautiful.
Tying music, sufism, and the previously mentioned Konia together, I watched a program on the Independent Film Channel yesterday called "Crossing Bridge Sound of Istanbul"
There was a few parts interviewing some whirling dervishes (sufi) abd one dervish put it most elegantly. His 'sekke' or tall hat represents the tombstone, his black overcoat the grave, and his white clothing the burial shroud.

He explained that the right hand is outreached towards the god and the left is pointed downward with the fingers curled to bring the blessings and experience of the god to people.
Sort of like a spiritual conduit.

It has been explained to me that the purpose of the dance is to bring oneself in harmony with the motions of the macro and microcosms- the planets and outer and inner spheres, and the result is an ecstatic union with the beloved.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=whirling+dervishes+of+konya&search_type=&aq=3&oq=whirling+dervishes

Here are some clips from the show-
notice how they inserted the word "the" between crossing and bridge- Turkey has been poised between the east and the west through all history, and IS the crossing bridge itself.I found it interesting that the word was added.
it was a facinating watch, especially the rapper Ceza- (I hate rap, no, I really do-I try never o use that word-)

The first concept of sequestering the sick from the healthy and the first hopsital was also a contribution of muslim scientist.
Without Islamic universities (the first in the world was at Fez Morocco) the european renaissance could not have taken place, as that was where all the europeans sent their children to be educated.
St. Augustine's writings reveal a great deal of that influence.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=crossing+bridge+sounds+of+istanbul&page=1

Halozcel will likely go ballistic at this, but I have deduced that he is a Kemalist, or turkish nationalist vehemently against religion.
You can say what you want Jelly- but you cannot assert with a straight face that Atatruk is the father of compassion.
Which is what this forum is about.

Astoria wrote: "Fairport Convention! You're dating yourself"

Hey! I resemble that remark. Just because I have Matty Groves on my i Pod is no reason to call me old!

Justillthen,

*positive and constructive additions that middle eastern muslims in the Middle Ages*
Would you please write any examples/samples ?

Medicine in islam (!). Spit and Urine ?

zanderbob:
Thank you for your input and your honesty. I appreciate it. I will take a look at your link.
As with other exclusive religions, fundamental christianity as generally practiced today does not allow in my experience pluralism... I reject that there is only one Gateway to the Creator. Whatever was the original Source of this unbelievably diverse Creation is Itself, perhaps, immutable, but creation clearly is not. The roads back must be as diverse as the individuals themselves.
I am always interested in and open to enlightened perspectives on spiritual matters.
Thanks again.
Justin

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN59:

Why is it that you continue to seek to negate the positive and constructive additions that middle eastern muslims did in the Middle Ages? I have to guess at this point that you are vested in negation and villification of them.
That SOME of the muslim population of todays middle east are fanatics and violent does not mean they ALL are! And does not take away from the good that their forebears did centuries ago.
Frankly, if you follow valid history over the last two hundred years in the middle east, you might just see that the fanatics have something to be angry about. And our western hands are bloody and unclean in the causes of their misery.

Once again, this does not matter to me in this dialogue. I explained twice my position and need not go again. I am getting bored.
This dialogue is on compassion and the benefits or deficits of finding commonality in compassion. To do so requires, as with all honest debate, openness and the willingness to hear opposing viewpoints. To 'hear' is critical, as well as 'willingness'.
I have my own awareness of the history of europe or the reasons for the dark ages. Your reference to Constantine was three centuries before Mohammad. I was referring to post Middle ages, crusades and post crusades, which was considered a golden age in persia and the middle east. European 'doctors' were 'bleeding' the sick to rid the body of evil in the blood! and using leeches to suck the evil out of the blood! :-) Science and medicine were far beyond that in the middle east at the time.
Again, we build upon what comes before.
Contemplate compassion. Muslims deserve it as much as evangelicals need it.
I am bored. You will not have peace with many of your enemies until you are willing to.
Peace.

There is quite a range of views being posted here. Let me offer one more. I'm a "conservative" Christian who believes in orthodox Christianity, the most basic premise of which is that Jesus of Nazareth was God in human form come to save the world from sin and death (I've probably caused a bunch of you to tune out at this point...please hold on for just a moment). I confess that I (and way too many others who claim to be Christians) have been guilty of lacking compassion/love for others who are not like myself, to include people of other religions, homosexuals, women who choose to terminate a pregnancy, and many others. And for that we need to ask for your forgiveness. I know that it is exponentially better to live out this apology, which I will be trying to do, than to submit it in an anonymous post, but I thought it would be good to add it to this discussion.

That being said, I would like to suggest that anyone who is interested in the discussion of how exclusive religions (like Christianity) can exist in a pluralistic/democratic society check out this video of a talk/discussion headed by Timothy Keller. I also highly recommend his book - "The Reason for God - Belief in an Age of Skepticism".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9fmKSwuoDE

Tim Keller is a renowned Christian pastor and author who I believe successfully engages people in open and honest intellectual dialogue regarding the truth claims of orthodox Christianity. He serves at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City.

It would seem that any discussion of God, where not a single scripture of His holy word appears anywhere in the article or the comments, lending official support as to His view on how He wishes to be worshiped, pretty much highlights what the root of the problem is...

Showing compassion towards Islam by providing the following free Five Point Program for the Cure to the Suffering from Centuries of the Three B Syndrome i.e. being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

Mary Cunningham

All acts which degrade us as human being including abrotion are wrong.
THIS IS TERROR.

Justillthen
Mary Cunningham

Justillthen has raised important points.

Sufism is not just playing music and dancing, rather it is an attempt to purify not the intellectual or cognitive domain but the rest of the five too, which are: Imaginative, Estimative or cogitative, psychomotor, common sense and willing domains.
When one be-friends the Most Compassionate, his heart is too filled with compassion and love for the mankind. It is like if you put iron in the fire, the iron too will glow like a fire though there is difference in fire and iron. No one can achieve such sublimity without obeying Allah and His Prophet (PBUH).
Rumi is no exception, so if he says what i had earlier written then that covers whole of his works.

Secondly you have raised the point of revengeful God.
Most of us have the difficulty as to why God can be revengeful.
God gave the human being the ability to distinguish between right and wrong, bad and good
further He sent His prophets to guide the human beings. Now if a nation crosses all the limits and become harmful for the mankind and the generations to come then that nation is punished.If not here then hereafter.
The people who neglected ladies and selected men, were punished and destroyed after they were warned not to commit such an act, because they were undermining the exsistence of the whole society. Do you think the mankind can survive if we do go contrary to the nature?
When common man do not understand reason behind each and every action then simply he is told this is a sin.

RLS

"You have an end too."

Note double meanings of 'end': end as purpose but also end as finish. Enlarges the whole piece doesn't it? It's a beautiful little poem.

ASTORIA :"Fairport Convention! You're dating yourself Robin! (As I am also)"

As is my record collection. Still have "Unhalfbricking" and "Liege & Lief," continuing to miss "What we Did on Our Holidays." And you really have to hear Richard Thompson's take on Prince's "Kiss." Indescribably weird.

Yes Aminius, Victoria in Astoria. I was putting that on my posts for awhile after they solidified the name change here. It had me as Victoria5, and I figured if there were that many around here, Astoria would be less confusing.
Admittedly, it is not a very imaginiative name-as I actually do live in Astoria.

This global charter is a great idea and has always been the intention of all religions since day one. Though I have found that actual personal implementation of the golden rule alone is far harder than I could imagine. (Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. (Romans 7:7))

justillthen:

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN59:

Thank you for your input and the links. I don't have time to follow up on your direction that wants to credit india for seminal mathmatical work. It is in my education the understanding that the middle east, persia, babalon and messopotamia that scientific advances came. All work builds on understanding that came before, so all this is possible. It does not matter, though, to my position. Moreover your attempt to deflect what credit rightfully goes to the cradle of civilization is a distraction to the argument and an undeserved discounting of their advances to civilization.
My post to halozcel1 was to counter his attempt to discount Rumis' compassion by comparing it to the suggestion of fanaticism in present day Konya. Indeed muslims at that time were far advanced culturally and scientifically to dark ages christians. Fact.
Your attempt to discredit that truth is weak.
It brings credit to us to applaud what is good in those that are different.
Even if they are muslim.
It is part of what compassion is about.
Best.

November 14, 2008 3:58 PM

_______________________________________________

You might like to read about the history of the Roman Empire. It predates Islam considerably.

Emperor Constantine lived four centuries before the birth of Mohammad and he adopted Christianity as the official religion of his European empire.

Europe went through a dark ages period in its history because of wars. It has nothing to do with lack of civilization at the time. European learning and culture was preserved in monasteries, especially Benedictine monasteries.

Mary_Cunningham:

Prolife:

Looked up the numbers on female abortion in India and proportionately it is small: in the 0-14 cohort (scans became generally available about 15 years ago) my guesstimate is some 15 million girls are missing. In a population 1 billion 100 million. Still...I keep remembering Mother Theresa's warning not to allow abortion in India, that it would cause terrible deaths. And she said this years before cheap scans (which reveal the sex of the infant) were available.

November 14, 2008 5:19 AM

_________________________________________

Mary,

All statistics from India should be verified for the reliability of the source and the method by which conclusions were arrived at.

Don't forget almost 70% of the Indian population lives in villages, are desperately poor and do not probably have access to primary health care facilities which use ultrasound routinely. That population constitutes the invisible Indians, Indians who live in a different era and always have. That is a population that lives in touch with nature, are not easily influenced by theories of a child being a clump of cells, parasite etc. Those theories are rationalizations of the intellectual mind.

The educated upper and upper-middle class and rich Indians would buy into those theories. Hence it is possible that more and more Indian women from the upper middle class and rich backgrounds abort their female children when the gender is known as a result of ultrasound. The danger of extrapolating such data collected from urban hospitals is obvious.

It helps to keep in mind that 88% of abortions in the US is done by UNmarried women below the age of 24. If that number were to be taken out of abortion statistics, abortion would be reduced by 88% in the US! In India arranged marriages at a young age is still the norm. Sex outside marriage (before or within marriage) is not the norm. The society does not accept it as the norm and families and the society tries to police behavior as best as they can.

Astoria,

Are you Victoria?

Fairport Convention! You're dating yourself Robin! (As I am also)

"You see Rumi wrote about love and introduced Love to Islam; which actually Muslims un-consciously reject. That is why Muslims reject Sufism."

Speak for yourself Arif-
I don't unconsciuosly reject love nor Sufism.

"Muslims may argue that there is love in Islam but trust the gods... there is none."

Tell that to my own loving heart.

"Rumi believed in unity of existence and his teachings have nothing to do with Islam."

Rumi was my first introduction to Islam.

"Rumi said many things that Muslims hate,"

Rumi said many things Muslims love.
Rumi worshipped ALLAH- read Qur'an, and gained inspiration from it.
And I gain inspiration from both Rumi and the Qur'an.
Who is to say I cannot?

justillthen:

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN59:

Thank you for your input and the links. I don't have time to follow up on your direction that wants to credit india for seminal mathmatical work. It is in my education the understanding that the middle east, persia, babalon and messopotamia that scientific advances came. All work builds on understanding that came before, so all this is possible. It does not matter, though, to my position. Moreover your attempt to deflect what credit rightfully goes to the cradle of civilization is a distraction to the argument and an undeserved discounting of their advances to civilization.
My post to halozcel1 was to counter his attempt to discount Rumis' compassion by comparing it to the suggestion of fanaticism in present day Konya. Indeed muslims at that time were far advanced culturally and scientifically to dark ages christians. Fact.
Your attempt to discredit that truth is weak.
It brings credit to us to applaud what is good in those that are different.
Even if they are muslim.
It is part of what compassion is about.
Best.

November 14, 2008 3:58 PM

______________________________________

I suggest you read the information provided in the links. It does no harm to expand your knowledge base. When you make statements that can be so easily discredited with reliable information available to all in the Internet.

Over and over we read that Arabian Muslims invented mathematics etc. That is because history books are written by Europeans and they write about where they got their mathematics from. But anyone who has cared to look where the Arabian Muslims got their mathematics from they would make the obvious discovery that Muslims ruled India and took back the knowledge. Zero is an invention of Indians. The Arabic numerals is a simple numerical representation of the Indian mathematical system. The mathematics is Indian, the Arabic Muslims simply found a simpler symbol to represent it.

The Chinese and Indian civilizations are all ancient. They developed *independently of each other* at the same time. About the time Confucius lived in China, Buddha lived in India, Socrates lived in Greece. Hindu philosophy is much older than Socrates or Buddhist or Confucius.

MARY_CUNNINGHAM :"RLand&etc.

I was enlarging on Jamil's poetry. He wrote some beautiful lines. Couldn't you hear it? It's different than English, it's quite beautiful. It reminds me a little of my grandmother's Irish"

Not so much, but maybe now. My response was to:

"Now someone from another planet would *not*, really would not, believe that."

Not actually knowing anyone from any other planet, I would not presume to know what an alien would or would not believe. Simple as that.

MARY_CUNNINGHAM: "I loved these lines especially, Jamil. A prayer, so poignant.

"Think about the blessings of God around you and you will be surprised but don't mock.
You have an end too." "

That, I get. My Grandpa would carry around a mustard seed encased in glass on the end of a silver chain, like some would carry around a railway conductor's watch. So much life emerging from such a little thing is miraculous. The God that created that mustard seed, that is a God I can claim allegiance to.

I loved these lines especially, Jamil. A prayer, so poignant.

"Think about the blessings of God around you and you will be surprised but don't mock.
You have an end too."

RLand&etc.

I was enlarging on Jamil's poetry. He wrote some beautiful lines. Couldn't you hear it? It's different than English, it's quite beautiful. It reminds me a little of my grandmother's Irish.

PROLIFEACTIVISTBORN59:

Thank you for your input and the links. I don't have time to follow up on your direction that wants to credit india for seminal mathmatical work. It is in my education the understanding that the middle east, persia, babalon and messopotamia that scientific advances came. All work builds on understanding that came before, so all this is possible. It does not matter, though, to my position. Moreover your attempt to deflect what credit rightfully goes to the cradle of civilization is a distraction to the argument and an undeserved discounting of their advances to civilization.
My post to halozcel1 was to counter his attempt to discount Rumis' compassion by comparing it to the suggestion of fanaticism in present day Konya. Indeed muslims at that time were far advanced culturally and scientifically to dark ages christians. Fact.
Your attempt to discredit that truth is weak.
It brings credit to us to applaud what is good in those that are different.
Even if they are muslim.
It is part of what compassion is about.
Best.

MARY_CUNNINGHAM : "Very nice Jamil.

I would only add, that for many of the mockers, when they were weak and helpless in the womb, they would want as well their mother to be able to destroy them. Kill them by lethal injection, cut them into four pieces, pull them out limb by limb and then incinerate them

Now someone from another planet would *not*, really would not, believe that."

So you're telling me that you've been to other planets?

Which ones?

There seem to be a multitude folks on this site who really are only concerned about themselves. They seem to be overly upset at how the world has done them wrong because of who they want to sleep with. I guess when you are only thinking of yourself, compassion is hard to understand.

It seems to me that there are far more important issues that people in the world should be compassionate about. There are millions of hungry people, abused children, people surrounded by war on a daily basis and those suffering from terminal diseases. When I think of these people, the problems that you are all ranting about seem rather trivial.

Very nice Jamil.

I would only add, that for many of the mockers, when they were weak and helpless in the womb, they would want as well their mother to be able to destroy them. Kill them by lethal injection, cut them into four pieces, pull them out limb by limb and then incinerate them

Now someone from another planet would *not*, really would not, believe that.

jamil51:

"Rumi's actual approach to Islam is clarified by his quatrain: "...

One, if you know the volume of Rumi's works you could not possible distill his "actual approach" to anything, unless it were something that ran throughout his work. If that is anything it would be enthrallment with the Beloved One...
Are you someone that takes a few sentences from a preacher or politician and call that the truth of that individual? Or take the whole package?
Second, we cannot directly relate Islam of the 13th century to Islam of the 21st century any more than we can relate the political and religious atmosphere of Konya between those two times.

Jamil51,
Semidouble has a point if you read it. There is a lot to question about compassion in religion, and in the Bible in particular. The OT God, said to be the same as the NT God, (but perhaps with a change of heart? thought He was immutable...), was called a vengeful God. No surprise His people, fashioned in His Image, would be vengeful as well, eh? If so, how could you ridicule semidouble and his like for stating the obvious?

Semidouble and others

You talk a lot about historical events in which you do not believe,they are joke for you but you forget to tell one about yourself.
Before you were a few drops of water jumped out in excitement. Then you remain for nine months in a womb. Weak and helpless you came out, could't even clean yr self.
Now you are a strong man mocking the very existance of God.
Say if some form another plenet comes and you told him that before you were a few drops of water,can he believe you???
Is it not a joke for a stranger if you tell him this tall big tree comes out of this small seed in your hand.?
Think about the blessings of God around you and you will be surprised but don't mock.
You have an end too.

Religion is compassionate? That is indeed a very bad joke!
Let's see here for a moment. Our dear lord of the clouds killed over 2 million people in the OT. Not my numbers, it's in the GOOD book.
And then this loving dude killed ALL life on Earth, including all flora and fauna with a 28,000 ft high flood.
Then he tells us to stone gays and disobedient children to death and sends his son, (who actually is himself) on a suicide mission only to weak up from the dead and ascend to heaven.

If the whole thing wouldn't have such serious implications on our daily lives, it would be laughable. I never understood what kind of void people are filling with this blind faith.
Compassionate? Look at the last 2000 years of organized religion and the answer will come easily.

Compassion among people would increase, in fact, by the abolition of all organized religions which only reinforce isolation, exclusion, distrust, and animosity of their followers against the followers of different religions or against the non-religious. In any case, it's a fact that very, very few religious people of the world practice compassion as taught by their religions. Why? Simply because most cannot give up their instinctive desires of attaining and holding on to their Earthly wealth and power. And the only time when an organized religion practices compassion such as giving charities is when they have any leftovers, after they first spend most money on building lavish places of worship, high salaries and provisons for their religious leaders, promotions and conversions, or on other costs of running their business of religion that has nothing to do with compassion.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA....ROFLMAO !!!

Compassion? Evangelical Christians, Catholics, Mormons? Yeah, when flighs of angels spew out of your backside maybe. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Try judgment, hate, hypocrisy, ignorance, irrationality, plain stupidiy, greed and arrogance. Now that's a faith whose history I can believe in.

Next time, tell us up front it's a comedy sketch so we know you're kidding.

Arif

Rumi's actual approach to Islam is clarified by his quatrain:

I am the servant of the Qur'an as long as I have life.
I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One.
If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings,
I am quit of him and outraged by these words.[45]

Seyyed Hossein Nasr states:

One of the greatest living authorities on Rûmî in Persia today, Hâdî Hâ'irî, has shown in an unpublished work that some 6,000 verses of the Dîwân and the Mathnawî are practically direct translations of Qur'ânic verses into Persian poetry.[46]

Rumi states in his Dīwān:

The Sufi is hanging on to Muhammad, like Abu Bakr.[47]

Make your intellect a sacrifice in the presence of Muhammad, and say, "God is sufficient for me, since God is enough for satisfying me.[48]

To Pro and all

The Arab conquerors took mathematics from India and philosophy from (ex) Byzantium. However, although the Arabs appropriated both realms of knowledge they expanded and preserved them. Much of Greek philosophy re entered Western Europe by the means of Spanish Arabic scholars. The rest was preserved by the Church.

Prolife:

Looked up the numbers on female abortion in India and proportionately it is small: in the 0-14 cohort (scans became generally available about 15 years ago) my guesstimate is some 15 million girls are missing. In a population 1 billion 100 million. Still...I keep remembering Mother Theresa's warning not to allow abortion in India, that it would cause terrible deaths. And she said this years before cheap scans (which reveal the sex of the infant) were available.

robinlandseadel:

HALOZCEL1 : "Justillthen, You say *high level civilization,science* (does muslim know what science is)"

Repeat after me: "Algebra."

Repeat after me: "Zero."

November 13, 2008 3:13 PM

_____________________________________________

REPEAT AFTER ME: I will at least google the terms, 'history of zero, history of mathematics in ancient India, period of Islamic rule in India (when knowledge from India was transported back to the Middle East)...' etc.

Koran Armstrong is neither a historian, nor a theologian, nor a philosopher. Yet she writes copiously on history and comparative religions! In her last book but one she equated Greek philosophy-- philosophy for goodness sake!--with Judaism, a religion! a religion!,and saw Buddhism, a philosophy really with no rituals towards the gods, as having great parallels to Judaism.

She is thoroughly confused.

However, given that ON Faith is sponsored by two atheists and remembering Prof. Stevens-Arroyo's ingenious and continuous reworking of Catholic theology I would say Ms Armstrong is in the right place.

justillthen:

halozcel1:

Huh? Are you mad? OK, that is clear. Are you looney?

Two things.
First, the cultural, agricultural, scientific, spiritual advances that came from the middle east during the middle ages is exhaustively detailed and chronicled. You can Google it. Start with 'history 101', friend, and go from there. I would offer many other search words but I do not want to confuse you.
Second, again, I am not dialoguing current state of religion, politics, etc. of the middle east. If I were interested there would still be a HUGE amount of good to find and see in the middle east. Hey, even universities. They even have universities there, in the middle east, halozcel1.
And compassionate people live there too, halozcel1, though I am sure that you cannot see them for all of the fanatics that are swimming in front of the compassionate ones in your minds eye.
Cluttered spot I fear. Meditation helps. I need that help now, to, for I fear...
:-)

November 13, 2008 3:34 PM

________________________________________________

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/india.html

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Indexes/Indians.html

Compassion?

Compassion? I bet two thousand dollars cash the author would "call security" if she saw a homeless person within five feet of her parked car.

A note to the sparkle-eyed: stones do not float.

Farnaz

My previous comment is for Farnaz too.

Arif,

The word Islam is like the word Christianity, the word Judaism. There are many Islams, many Christianities, many Judaisms. What you write is not quite accurate. Love was honorable before Rumi. The great heroes of three Muslim countries are poets. Educated Muslims memorize vast amounts of poetry throughout their lives. Some write it. Those some may be scientists, politicians, etc., who may write it every day. You are talking about complex religio-cultural phenomena. I doubt there are many breathing Iranians who don't know Rumi, and yet look at what Iran has become.

On the other hand, there are those who do reject music, etc. We are talking of millions of people with diverse views, a diverse people.

REASONISSTUPID:

My what a fertile ground this paragraph!

"The best way to peace and happiness is through faith based self sacrifice that is the result of individual free will."
I might agree with you here if you are speaking on an individual, independent of community. Not collectively. Unless you insert "collective free will". This is crucial, as free will is crucial on the individual level to realize peace and happiness. ALL of us must want IT, that which is sought. Follow?
"Additionally, it is possible, in a free society governed by laws, to believe that your religion is the correct one (as the majority of this country does) without forcibly imposing it upon others."
Theoretically I 'might' agree, conditionally. Practically though I have not seen this realized in the world. People who can DO forcibly impose their will on others. If YOU could impose your moral code in legislation, and enforcement, you WOULD. So... you lie in your last statement. Further your assumption is that there IS A "correct" religion. (When the hell will you people get off of your arrogant elitist ego trip?) Further still you make the broad and invalid leap that most of this country does believe, together, in a single correct religion. I was born and raised christian, born again, and again... I can tell you, (hey, don't believe me!) that there is no collective consensus on what is correct religiously, even in christianity.

" People can be free to hold negative views of different groups while still treating them with compassion and dignity."
Yes. It is lovely in the rare times that they do. Christlike.

" God knows the left disapproves of the religious right as much as the religious right disapproves of gay marriage and abortion."
Sorry, too much to go into here. And too obvious of a slight of word to need to.

" A relativist and universalist attitude towards faith negates its meaning and therefore its relevance."
Is this where you say that there is only one 'pure' and correct interpretive version of christianity?
" This is most likely the real purpose of this article. After all, isn't On Faith run by two atheists?"
I was right! Pheww! You are negating this article and the call for finding commonality with this compassion crap.

Evangelicals in the United States of America are all accepting provided you are a white anglo saxon protestant....otherwise you really aren't american....and well...you should go back to where you came from cuz only white people belong here in the land of god

I am totally against the current federal funding of faith-based initiatives through Bush's Compassion Capital Fund. I understand that President Obama will dramatically change it. As a gay man, I find it outrageous that my tax money is being used to fund discrimination against gay people. The barrier between church and state -- a central component in our Constitution -- must be protected. I personally don't care if you want to marry your cousins, I just don't want to pay for your behavior, or proselytizing.

Also, I'd recommend that you grow a bit. It it wasn't for abortion and gays, could you organize and raise a dime? Why not take a deep breath, look inside, re-read Matthew 25 - and then live it.

While many of the world's faiths have been attributed to the deaths of millions throughout history, it was part of the maturation process that led to the development of the free society we appreciate here in the West. A secular atheist society that advocates the self and one's desires as an individual's highest priority will hardly ever lead to a any state of universal compassion. While liberals preach peace, trapped in their own narcissism they hardly ever live it. Instead they expect the government to enforce it upon us all. Ask someone who lived in Russia under Stalin or in China during Mao's Cultural Revolution or in Cambodia under Pol Pot how sacrificing the individual completely for the common good worked out. Then count the millions who were killed when there was any sign of dissent.

The best way to peace and happiness is through faith based self sacrifice that is the result of individual free will. Additionally, it is possible, in a free society governed by laws, to believe that your religion is the correct one (as the majority of this country does) without forcibly imposing it upon others. People can be free to hold negative views of different groups while still treating them with compassion and dignity. God knows the left disapproves of the religious right as much as the religious right disapproves of gay marriage and abortion. A relativist and universalist attitude towards faith negates its meaning and therefore its relevance. This is most likely the real purpose of this article. After all, isn't On Faith run by two atheists?

While compassion and a generous view of the brotherhood of all human beings should be at the core of religion, it is difficult for me to include doctrinaire, strictly hierarchical and overly concerned with an afterlife sects under this umbrella. Compassion begins with faith in the humanity and ability of individuals to overcome their circumstances and embrace the rest of us inhabiting this planet of all sexes, creeds and colors on this earth right now. Those concerned with doctrinal "correctness" and reward after death concern me.

robinlandseadel:

:-)

And wow does my belly dance when I eat bhaklava! Ya gotta know you got an advanced society when they come up with them treats!

HALOZCEL1 : "Robin, Say after me,
Altough the word *algebra* comes from Arabic,its origin can be traced to the ancient Babylon. . ."

From the Wikipedia [from which all great knowledge flows, but hey---this is still true]: "Babylon was a city-state of ancient Mesopotamia, the remains of which can be found in present-day Al Hillah, Babil Province, Iraq, about 85 kilometers (55 mi) south of Baghdad. . ."

Ya know, where them Sunnis and Shia are having Democracy shoved down their throats by virtious, gun totin' Christians? It's like the Crusades never ended, dig?

Also from our modern, virtual, Library of Alexandria:

"Early history: By the middle of the 2nd millennium BC, the Babylonian mathematics had a sophisticated sexagesimal positional numeral system. The lack of a positional value (or zero) was indicated by a space between sexagesimal numerals. By 300 BC, a punctuation symbol (two slanted wedges) was co-opted as a placeholder in the same Babylonian system. In a tablet unearthed at Kish (dating from about 700 BC), the scribe Bêl-bân-aplu wrote his zeros with three hooks, rather than two slanted wedges. . ."

In other words, these concepts came into being from the locus of Arab culture. The Arab culture is responsible for the development and adoption of two of the greatest advances in math and by extension, science. Not to mention belly dancing and baklava. JustTillThen doubtless could fill you in on more details. Arab culture really isn't my thing, after all.

I'm no Muslim, can't say I'm pro-muslim, and they really, really don't want a Witch like me. But if you want to be a credible human being then every so often you need to acknowledge that even as you hate the "other", blindly hating the "other" will serve you ill. This isn't even compassion, it's simple self preservation.

Hmmm, we wonder what "doctorateless" Karen Armstrong's take is on the following synopsis about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (reiteration is part of the education process):

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's not chosen people.
www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/Works_Cited

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology. .

Hmmm, we wonder what "doctorateless" Karen Armstrong's take is on the following synopsis about Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (reiteration is part of the education process):

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Compassion as a guiding principal certainly seems to have limited if any downside.

There are many overlapping principals among religion. There is a great little book (literally) called Oneness. It is about 3 inches by 4 inches and displays all the overlapping principals and sayings across the Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Taoism and there could be a couple of others in there.

And yes compassion is a central tenet and I think compassion is central to atheism in that it is a human trait. But staying with religion ironically oneness of all things is also a central theme.

Of course the overriding issue is “my” version is the one and only right version which is really just man’s perversion (interpretation) of a universal truth. It is our own thoughts about ourselves that keep this truth hidden in plain sight. Religion had noble goals at some point when taken as an absolute on a notion of something that is infinite seems to be an oxymoron.

halozcel1:

Huh? Are you mad? OK, that is clear. Are you looney?

Two things.
First, the cultural, agricultural, scientific, spiritual advances that came from the middle east during the middle ages is exhaustively detailed and chronicled. You can Google it. Start with 'history 101', friend, and go from there. I would offer many other search words but I do not want to confuse you.
Second, again, I am not dialoguing current state of religion, politics, etc. of the middle east. If I were interested there would still be a HUGE amount of good to find and see in the middle east. Hey, even universities. They even have universities there, in the middle east, halozcel1.
And compassionate people live there too, halozcel1, though I am sure that you cannot see them for all of the fanatics that are swimming in front of the compassionate ones in your minds eye.
Cluttered spot I fear. Meditation helps. I need that help now, to, for I fear...
:-)

Robin,

Say after me,
Altough the word *algebra* comes from Arabic,its origin can be traced to the ancient Babylon,Egypt,Greek(I said muslim,not Arab)

Say after me,
Zero had been found by Indians(India),not by Arabs and zero was known in Middle East soooooooo long before submission.

Robinlandseadel - excellent posts as usual!

If anyone ever wanted to compare the fruits of real spiritual insight with learned autonomic responses, all one need do is line up your posts side by side with those of CCNL - the perfect object lesson, if ever there was one. Sometimes, as is the case with this thread, it's all been said.

Keep up the good work....

______________

ARIF - ditto ..... excellent post on Rumi.

ARIF2:
Nice post.

HALOZCEL1 : "Justillthen, You say *high level civilization,science* (does muslim know what science is)"

Repeat after me: "Algebra."

Repeat after me: "Zero."

Justillthen,

You say *high level civilization,science*(does muslim know what science is)
Where are the Universities of so-called high level civilization ? As far as I know,secular Turkey built *Seljuc University* thirty years ago.
Where is the eight hundred year-old University in Konia ?
Where are seven hundred,five hundred,three hundred year-old Universities,Academy and Libraries ?
Where is *Oxford of Konia* ?
Where is *M.I.T. of Konia* ?
Where are those scientific books ?
Who knows those scientific books ?
A European traveller had said,*Konia is a town as big as Cologne(Germany)* and there were at least fifty churches in KOnia.
Where are those churches ?
Not churches,where are the ruins of those churches ?
Is this compassion ?
Is this tolerance ?
The Map of Piri Reis was NOT drawn by Piri Reis.He didnt go to South America and Antarctica,how could he draw the places where he didnt go and visit ? He probably bought it from Portuguese seaman.
As far as I know,there is only one *world-wide famous university* in islamic world.That is Al Azhar and it is not an university indeed,but *center of fanaticism*.
Where is Oxford of islam ? Where,where ?
Where is M.I.T. of islam ?
Only Palaver,palaver,palaver,myth,myth,sophistry and empty words.....

Why are people full of hate and judgment about love?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110602567_pf.html

Is it so wrong to protect all families with civil protections? Why do you care if I can visit my love in the hospital in our time of need?

Our families will still be here, they are now just less protected. For what reason?

I don't read anything in the Bible that gives people instruction to hurt me or my family, on the contrary (which is the point of the column I suppose!).

I don't get it. I really don't. If you think it's okay to impose your moral will and marriage is your deal then why not go for the real problem? Go after adulterers. It's one of the big 10 and directly responsible for the ruin of many marriages.

Prop 88: Marriage is only allowed between a man and woman who only have sex with each other. Violations will result in annulment.

Somehow I don't see that passing...

ARIF2: "When Rumi died/killed his funeral was attended by people of all faiths showing that his message was for all mankind. Sufis dance and listen to Music, something Islam forbids. Rumi himself danced to music though mystical."

It's just one of those things, the heresy of KNOWING that music is/can be a mystical experience, a mystical experience that REQUIRES sharing. I love it when I read of Beethoven's Late masterworks—the MIssa Solemnis, the late quartets and sonatas—described as "nearly mystical' when anyone who has truly heard and connected with these works knows that these masterworks are essentially mystical. We wouldn't want to downgrade the hierarchical positioning of the self appointed elect, would we?

Richard Thompson, British singer/songwriter and founding member of the great celtic folk revival band "Fairport Convention", converted to Sufism with some amazing musical payoffs. This lyric to one of his songs that obviously was influenced by Rumi & Sufism should give you a taste of what I'm talking about:

Night comes in
Like some cool river
How can there be
Be another day
Take my hand
O real companion
And we’ll dance
We’ll dance ‘till we fade away

O the songs
Pour down like silver
They can only
Only break my heart
Drink the wine
The wine of lovers
Lovers tired of being apart

Dancing ‘till my feet don’t touch the ground
I lose my mind and dance forever
Lose my mind and dance forever
Turn my world around
Turn my world around

O this night
Is like no other
And this room
Is ringing in my ears
And these friends
Will never leave me
And these tears
Are like no other tears

Dancing ‘till my feet don’t touch the ground
I lose my mind and dance forever
Lose my mind and dance forever
Turn my world around
Turn my world around

Well I may find
That street tomorrow
Leave the shadow
Of my lonely room
See my one
My one and only
Heart and soul
I’m coming soon

Runi was a heretic. Rumi may also have been as gay as a goose, his pen name was Shams a man he dearly loved and followed, Shams was killed by Rumi's family. Rumi then develops a relationship with another man Salah. They practiced Sufism. Sufism is a kinder gentler form of Islam. You see Rumi wrote about love and introduced Love to Islam; which actually Muslims un-consciously reject. That is why Muslims reject Sufism. Sufi's and Dervish’s don't care about sects, religions or even Mohammed for that matter, they only care about the fundamental aspect of sustainable life; Love. Muslims may argue that there is love in Islam but trust the gods... there is none. When Rumi died/killed his funeral was attended by people of all faiths showing that his message was for all mankind. Sufis dance and listen to Music, something Islam forbids. Rumi himself danced to music though mystical. Rumi believed in unity of existence and his teachings have nothing to do with Islam. Rumi said many things that Muslims hate, he dared to think and expand his thoughts. You have to be a Sufi or a Dervish to understand Rumi.
Strange though it may seem, the Pathans and the Afghans love Rumi and Saadi even though they churn out Taliban by the dozen.

No one religion can claim Rumi, he belongs Mankind.
...
I died as a mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was Man.
Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
Rumi

halozcel1:

Rumi(Jalaladin),Persian poet had lived in Konia.
Is there compassion in Konia ?
On the contrary,Konia is the center of religious fanatics.Where is compassion ?

Rumi lived eight hundred years ago, during the early european middle ages when darkness reigned. In europe. In the middle east where he was born and raised there was a high, (for that era, very high), level of civilization, science, agriculture, ...
Eight hundred years ago.
Much can happen in eight hundred years.

Rumi was a voice FOR compassion that resonates still today. Indeed it has had a resurgence, in the middle east to some extent but in the west where he was unknown thirty years ago. And with him other ecstatic poets.
If Konya is a center for religious fanatics I do not know that. What does "fanatic" mean here? I get Falluja = fanatics. But if Konya = fanatics it is still a meaningless comparison that you draw across centuries, and on the sholders of one man. One great man.

Jamil,

You critisize homosexuality,but you also say *Rumi is rare*
Lets not forget,Rumi was said to be sodomite and his teacher *Sun of Tabrizi*(where did he enlighten) was a sodomite as well.
You blame homosexuality,but,on the other hand you say *Rumi(sodomite) is rare*. Isnt it a contradiction ?

When speaking of a religion that appears to be causing harm upon "non believers", it is good to remember that co-option of some tribe's religious beliefs is the oldest political trick in the book.

There will always be some autocrat who falsely attaches themselves to a religious creed and displays their actual disdain for the core concepts of that moral law in their actions. A particular "Compassionate Conservative", who claims Christ as his role model comes to mind. But ultimately these issues always come down to personal action. It's all very well and good to ritually mouth a credo, but if you are not really following those beliefs then salvation will forever be out of your grasp. All salvation is personal. I've got no plans on "saving" anyone else, working on myself is a full-time job.

Every Grain Of Sand

In the time of my confession, in the hour of my deepest need
When the pool of tears beneath my feet flood every newborn seed
There's a dyin' voice within me reaching out somewhere,
Toiling in the danger and in the morals of despair.

Don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake,
Like Cain, I now behold this chain of events that I must break.
In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand
In every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

Oh, the flowers of indulgence and the weeds of yesteryear,
Like criminals, they have choked the breath of conscience and good cheer.
The sun beat down upon the steps of time to light the way
To ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay.

I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame
And every time I pass that way I always hear my name.
Then onward in my journey I come to understand
That every hair is numbered like every grain of sand.

I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night
In the violence of a summer's dream, in the chill of a wintry light,
In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space,
In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face.

I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea
Sometimes I turn, there's someone there, other times it's only me.
I am hanging in the balance of the reality of man
Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand.

Bob Dylan

Faith and compassion are not compatible, those who find there solace in a specific faith believe different faiths are not equal to theirs, so begins the intolerance and discrimination of fellow humans.

A grand idea, human compassion, faith movements of the modern world crave power and control over society's and compassion is absent.

"Rumi(Jalaladin),Persian poet had lived in Konia.
Is there compassion in Konia ?
On the contrary,Konia is the center of religious fanatics.Where is compassion ?"

"Rumi is from Konia and that "Konia is the center of religious fanatics" insinuates that Rumi must be a religious fanatic."

Halozcel said that Rumi, is not from Konia- but Persia, and HAD lived there (700 years ago)
And presently- Konia is a center for fanaticism.

So this particular syllogistic reasoning won't fit here.
possibly Halozcel meant that depsite the overhwelming and pervasive influence of Rumi-(the Museum, he is buried there, the dervish center, schools) the city is basically centered entireyl around Rumi, and still draws pilgrims and tourists-
that fanaticism is prevalent.

However, Halozcel often overstates and has a very low threshold of what he considers fanaticism, any religious expression of Islam is fanaticism to him.

robinlandseadel :

Actions depend on intentions and compassion is one good intention.
Here you find some who comment to insult others and still they discuss compassion???????/
I appreciate your piont of view.
such sages like rumi are rare.

Rabbi Hillel said that the Golden Rule was the essence of Torah: everything else was "only commentary." Amen

I understand the philospohy of compassion to encompass all of creation. Compassion for creation (think living GREEN). Compassion for other. Compassion for self. Without compassion for creation we will die. Without compassion for other we will be alone. Without compassion for self we are empty.

I like this message. Let's all return to the most basic message of our respective religions and build on the common ground without expectation for full agreement on all spiritual matters. I think each religion (and each individual) represents different expressions of the same God. God bless us all.

HALOZCEL1 : "Robinlandseadel and Justillthen, Rumi (Jalaladin), Persian poet had lived in Konia. Is there compassion in Konia ?
On the contrary, Konia is the center of religious fanatics. Where is compassion ?"

Hummmmm. . .

This is a logical fallacy, an error in deductive reasoning. My wife [who teaches this sort of thing] explains: The premise is faulty. By way of example, Fresno [where I live] is in the center of California's Bible Belt, therefore Robin Landseadel must be a Christian fundamentalist. In fact, all previous posts of mine landed over on Starhawk's little WaPo "On Faith" balliwick, being as I'm more Wiccan than anything else, although I'm obviously not an orthodox anything. HALOZCEL1's statement that Rumi is from Konia and that "Konia is the center of religious fanatics" insinuates that Rumi must be a religious fanatic. It's just like saying that all Germans are Fascists, Beethoven was a German therefore Beethoven was a Fascist, or that God is an Englishman, all Englishmen are elitists therefore God is an elitist.

Rumi was/is a genius and the brilliance of his thought shines most brightly when he speaks of compassion, of mystical experience and of the essential nature of spiritual ecstasy flowering when it is shared. Although there are arguments to be made that certain spiritual paths have a strong tendency to veer in the direction of social control, I doubt that you would want to blame the Spanish Inquisition [really more a German/Italian operation by the way] on Jesus. Capiche?

garethharris

Follow your wishes blindly----- then who is the God for you?-------- Your own wishes.

You can commit wrong and ask for compassion but dont justify your wrongs for compensation.

God fearing people are compassionate, they sacrifice their time,money and life to serve others.Their right hand gives and the left never knows.
Try to find such persons and your life too shall be inspired. Sorry not by egotism.

When you read these posts, it becomes clear once again that religion is not about compassion, but control - of self, of life, of others.

Maybe our discussion should start with examination of human nature. Compassion comes from humans, not religion.

Humans are dear. Gods are cheap.

Robinlandseadel and Justillthen,

Rumi(Jalaladin),Persian poet had lived in Konia.
Is there compassion in Konia ?
On the contrary,Konia is the center of religious fanatics.Where is compassion ?

Other examples of "yucky" sexual activities??

And the best examples of these?

Womanizing, "Internizing", "Oralizing" Bill Clinton in the Oval/Oral Office!!!!

Pedophiliac priests and other pedophiles!!!

CCNL,

U empty head need psycho help so badly....so badly ....hurry get it...but perhaps u are beyond help...

Justillthen

I read your comments carefully.
Some of my mind you may read in the comment to Ms Karen Armstrong.
Further I want to comment that all such acts which degrades the mankind and universally against the nature are harmful for us therefore we advise the wrongdoer which it-self is out of concern and compassion.
I saw people has built tamples to feed mices and others to feed snakes and at the same time we expliot human beings live some distance away from them by depriving them of their resources by force and then having Compassion to send them charity. There is a difference in our thinking and actions. Then doulble standards in our actions. We need to learn meanings of many a things from the beginning.
I do believe God is most comassionate and merciful and His justice requires one to be answerable to wrong deed due to which generations suffers.
It a pity due to our "good" habbits the population of Europe and Russia is decreasing, the institution of family is ruined all becuse we want to enjoy our new discovered freedom without taking any resonsibility. And then compassion should be extended to all those who are doing such a momental damage to mankind.
Religion is not just belives but a journey without which the next horizan cannot be seen at all and this is unique very personal expericence.
I thankyou for your thought provoking comments

Keren Armstrong

God is compassionate. He created mankind and imbibed in its nature the element of compassion.

No doubt all religion advocates compassion, the difference lies, we believe one thing and act to its contrary.

Morals are universal in nature but due to neglect
in educating our children we are facing a dilema of chaos in all societies.Education is the only answer.

God is most compassionate therefore He gave us full freedom to do right or commit a wrong act
but with this freedom there lies responsibility that one should be answerable to his deeds.If not here then hereafter.
Sacred books are not obeyed what to talk about a charter of compassion.

DILD:

First off, if you bothered to read what Jesus did say about marriage, he NEVER mentioned men married to men or women to women. He ASSUMED everyone knew that. EVERY single verse in the gospels quoteing him has it in the context of a man and woman together. This is how GOD designed people to exist in marriage. However, this does not preclude people from having civil unions and other rights given to them outside of marriage.

In this society, we need to encourage people to pursue heterosexuality. The nuclear family with a man and women, and kids if they have them, is the superior model, whether you want to believe it or not. Just because people want marriage that way does not mean that Xians like myself hate gays, and you have made a great leap there. It does mean that society is stabilized through the relationships that come from heterosexual marriage and the family units that come from them.

We are not here to "stamp out gay people and society" But gays are very aggressive in getting society to put its stamp of approval on their lifestyle , orientation, whatever, and this is something that is against nature and against GOD .

I want gays to have rights, but I want society to be stable and gay marriage will not encourage this. Rights, yes, but marriage is something that should be reserved for the special relationship men and women can only have together. This has more to do with morality and stability for society from the pro prop 8 side.

It's interesting to see that for the vast majority of misbehavior in Ca, the gays stole all the signs from the prop 8 side and act like babies that did not get their way. They underestimated the black populace that voted the prop with yeses , as the blacks realize the truth that this is not a civil rights thing(they should know) but something that goes against common sense , morality, and stability in our society.

Give gays civil unions, but their relationships are not something recognize in marriage.

Nice straw man with the hate stuff, dude, but that argument is false and and does not hold much water at all.

Successor Barack "Huseyin" Obama

keep Faither Williams Bush on Your Neck in the Wisemen Council. be in front of Williams Bush, be the Hand be the EAr be the Eye, be a guide to the FAmily.

"ben babamdan ileri, oglum benden ileri" we are Family, one united grand on EArth, take us on our journey and keep us on the path.

FAither Williams Bush knows what it is to be old also and family father too, i am the youngest.

the time i remember is 3:07 AM. i woke up with a gentle voice "you have better write these" and wrote. this is to FAither Williams Bush.

He wrestled with God
He sweated and He was Chilled

He was the Son
He was the Successor

and Moses wiped His HAnd onto His Cloth, His HAnd that He had fed with Milk from His HAnd that had Shined in Light.

He was the Cabbage
He was in His Job Age

God had fed
and God will survive.

Successor Barack "Huseyin" Obama,

if you change Ground Zero, You shall have not a herd, not a choice, not a job. if You change Ground Zero, if You change Freedom, then Freedom shall change Your Path.

then there shall not be Kingdom
then there shall not be Ionah (Ionian Sea)
then may all be on the Land

God save us
and let Us have the Least we may.

varlık vergimi odedigim icin sukurler olsun.

onofrio:

To ProLifeActivistBorn59 :
"Why not call it simply Buddhism?"

Why not simply call compassion by its own name and leave the -isms to their graves?

November 13, 2008 12:47 AM

__________________________________________________

Karen Armstrong has written a book about Gautama Buddha and Buddhism.

Buddhism is an extremely popular religion in the West.

Buddhism appeals to intellectuals because of the sophisticated philosophy in it that doesn't require any belief in God.

Spoken to the Heart

I speak from the heart of the waters to the heart

that shudders and trembles, when their anger
resounds:

When you trust in God, who created the waters,

in the Name, in whom rests an eternity and a
world,
Then you will not tremble, even if the waters
build up,
because He who stays the waters is with you.

Yehuda Halevi
Translated by Franz Rosenzweig

Astoria, Astoria, Astoria,

Of course, "even in yuck, there sometimes is some good". BTW, how long did the mosquito bite itch?? Of course, one must consider what that bite might have contained e.g.

Eastern equine encephalitis

Japanese encephalitis

La Crosse encephalitis

St. Louis encephalitis

West Nile virus

Western equine encephalitis

Dengue Fever

Malaria

Rift Valley Fever

Yellow Fever

Bottom line: spiritual development has some significant risks :))

Vogons!!
O, that is good- really really good.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

LIB,
"moldy bread,
a source for penicillin you mean?

maggots
,Maggot Debridement Therapy (MDT) is the medical use of live maggots (fly larvae) for treating non-healing wounds.

In maggot debridement therapy (also known as maggot therapy, larva therapy, larval therapy, biodebridement or biosurgery), disinfected fly larvae are applied to the wound for 2 or 3 days within special dressings to keep them from migrating. The literature identifies three primary actions of medical grade maggots on wounds:

*They clean the wounds by dissolving dead and infected tissue ("debridement");

*They disinfect the wound (kill bacteria);

*They speed the rate of healing.

rats,
Yes, they showed a distinct lack of compassion in Europe- and killed the cats that killed the rats that carried the fleas-
mice
alot of controlled drug experiments use mice to test drugs we use also

and blood filled mosquitoes. Can't get real compassionate about any of those examples."

Actually it was a blood filled mosquito that taught me an early lesson about compassion and discernment and wisdom.

When I was young, a friend came upon me and I had a mosquito feeding on my arm.
My friend, knowing me- asked what I was doing. I said, letting the mosquito eat- they informed me that I also have a right to my own blood, and I need it too- and that I wasn't responsible for feeding the mosquito- the god would feed it if that was what She intended for it, I didn't have to kill it- but I didn't have to sacrifice my own strength to feed it either.

Well, it provided an insight and wisdom to me I had previously lacked- so even a blood filled mosquito had a purpose in my spiritual development.

I'm not overly convinced by your argument that "yucky" things (are your grandkids visiting?)
are not also deserving of compassion.

Let alone human beings.

Farnaz- You should not wince to find Ms. Armstrong here. She has been here as a panelist since the inception of these boards 2 years ago now. And has authored many threads here.

ROBINLANDSEADEL- What a welcome addition you are to these boards.

GIMPI- I also have two neutered sibling males, and they also have engaged in such behavior both pre- and post snip.

ARIF- The first album I ever owned in my life was Johnny Cash Live at San Quentin when I was 7.
Imagine that,huh?

As for the HTTP problem- is the hint that the great computer genie doesn't want me to go to that site?
Or that I should figure it out on my own?
I choose the latter.
peace all

Thank you robinlandseadel for bringing Rumi into this circle. Always a breath of soft air, Rumi, and so in tune with compassion and passion.

And CCNL, leave off the poesy; it almost makes those Mahommedan "worms of death and wrench" seem preferable. Have you ever heard of Vogons?

O fuddled gruntbuggly...

To ProLifeActivistBorn59 :
"Why not call it simply Buddhism?"

Why not simply call compassion by its own name and leave the -isms to their graves?

Hello Daniel “I would rather be an apostate than a nitwit.”

AMEN to that! All the best to you and your good Christ. Unlike you, I cannot see him clearly; the crowds are too thick, and the wind carries his voice away. You are brave to keep contending with the lions, Aslans in their own minds. May their mouths be shut. As for me, I left the den to them, and the name of Christian too, and risked the abyss. Whether I’m flying now or falling, I cannot tell, but I can see the sun.

Why not call it simply Buddhism?

Buddha is the well known religious founder who taught compassion as the basis for his religion.

Buddhism has no belief in gods, so its precepts can be accepted by all religions.

O Islam

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from O Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
As they ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of death and wrench.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom

Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

Dear Onofrio

What you said follows closely along the lines of what I actually believe.

I post on these threads often, criticizing the politics of Christianity. Almost all of the Christians who read my posts assume that I am an atheist and condemn me harshly.

But, I do believe in God, and I consider myself to be a Christian. It is just that the manner and mode that most Christians worship and venerate God is, to my thinking, improper and wrong, and is really juat a step away from worshiping a stone idol. So, I am left estranged, and in a state of offical apostasy.

But that is ok with me. I would rather be an apostate than a nitwit.

The various Islams and Christianities teach that “correct” beliefs about God are an essential precondition for acceptance by God. In terms of salvation/admission to heaven, thinking the right things is made virtually indistinguishable from doing right things. The latter are considered devalued or even completely nullified if not accompanied by the former. For example, to Christians no matter how much compassion I exercise, if I deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or that he died for my sins, then I’m excluded from eternal bliss. To Muslims, if I deny that Mohammed is the final definitive prophet of God, then I am hellbound, regardless of how many orphans I’ve supported, how faithful I’ve been to my wife, and how hospitable I’ve been to strangers. In both systems, good people are thought to burn forever for the sake of dogmatic consistency.

Truly, orthodoxy is always easier to achieve than orthopraxy. It’s easier to “accept Christ as Lord and Saviour” or to confess that “God is One and Mohammed is his prophet” than it is to always be honest, or to stop craving money and power, or to forgive an injury. Yet it is about these things that "God" or "Allah" is supposedly most concerned. So why is it that far more Christians will express outrage at a “blasphemous” film about Jesus than at an unjust war; and far more Muslims will express outrage about a “blasphemous” cartoon of Mohammed than at an honour killing of a young woman?

The faithful are enthralled by their god’s singular holiness and consider themselves its special guardians against a frivolous, callous, culpable world. They become jealous for their precious possession, and the jealousy breeds a lofty intolerance. Mix this psychological state with the implacable scriptures that express divine abomination of the unbeliever and you eventually get...murder, be it the bodily murder of the auto-da-fe, fatwa, jihad, and crusade, or the virtual murder of anathema and threats of hellfire. So compassion may well be part of what Islams and Christianities teach, but I fear it will always be undermined by the tendency to value orthodoxy so highly.

Karen Armstrong:

Having had the great misfortune of reading part of one of your "books," thrust upon me by a friend desperate for companionship in the lunatic asylum of your cognition, I wince to find you here.

You do not think as anyone who has attempted to decode your jumbles of words knows. You assemble incoherent fantasies, bearing no resemblance to any fact known to man or woman at any time. I don't have the hours, days, weeks, to go into every bizarre manifestation of your disregard for truth and analysis and, happily, have been spared the task.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=7158&sec_id=7158

Don't go away angry. Just go away.

JUSTILLTHEN: "I believe that compassion is foundational, to islam as well. Not to many who present themselves as current authorities of islamic thought, perhaps, but at the core of islam as a pathway to Allah and everlasting life, compassion is one of the essential prerequisites."

How right you are.

And now some music by Rumi:

STRANGE GATHERING

This man holds up a tambourine
and an entire musical mode comes

into the air! Prepare to travel;
tie the pack; open out the flag.

John the Baptist and David and
Joseph are turning somersaultsl

Jesus and Moses watch Gabriel
by the door casting spells. Abraham

looks lost in his longing, holding
a sword over Ishmael and Isaac.

They bow down. Muhammad says to
God, "My true brothers are those

who believe, though they do not
see me. I wish I could see them."

Abu Bakr, "True. It's true." Layla
and Majnun, Husrev and Shirin

stay glass-bright in the world of
pleasure; Rustam, warrior, Hamza,

Muhammad's uncle, arrows, shield,
and Ali's sword: who could stand

against that blade or throw it and
split the moon? Husamuddin here

is love's king. He bows at the
name of Shams Tabriz and says

again, I am the truth. The soul
is tremendously honored by that.

Translation: Coleman Barks

No problem with gods as metaphor, which does not say they are real. What do we understand that isn't metaphor, pattern recognition, at some level?

My only point in this discussion is that the ubiquity of certain moral precepts across all religions (against murder, incest, stealing, etc.) suggests to me that morality is a bigger set than religion, with its basis in genetics and cultural evolution. We fight wars over the questionable stuff like eating pork, who gets to be the pope, the status of women. Much of the other stuff, which varies from religion to religion, seems to be an assertion of power by the priesthood, claiming secret knowledge.

Thanks CCNL-
you always elevate the conversation to sublime heights.

Evolution/god/nature created a number of "yucky" things e.g. moldy bread, maggots, tape worms, tent worms, snakes, rotting vermin, rats, mice and blood filled mosquitoes. Can't get real compassionate about any of those examples. But none are sinners!!! They have no choice and neither, we assume, do homosexuals at least those physically programmed via their DNA.

CCNL : Homosexuality amongst animals is just as "yucky"!! (and disturbing!!)

De gustibus non est disputandum, however "God" [I prefer to think of her as the great Creatrix] apparently created these creatures and their behaviors besides. If you don't like it, then blame "God", but don't then call people with these behaviors ungodly or sinners. It just doesn't make any sense to do so.

Note to PIERREJC2: To forgive is divine, to love is divine, to show mercy and compassion is divine. To do good deeds for people you don't even know and then to expect nothing in return is a particularly high form of Grace.

To Kvetch is just a pain in the tuckus.

halozcel1:

You are mistaken.Compassion is NOT a foundational element in all major religions/cults.Cult doesnt know what compassion is.

First, I respectfully disagree. I believe that compassion is foundational, to islam as well. Not to many who present themselves as current authorities of islamic thought, perhaps, but at the core of islam as a pathway to Allah and everlasting life, compassion is one of the essential prerequisites. It shows itself well in the precept of giving to those in need to ones' ability.
Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.....

Second, I found it hard to understand and follow your first posting. I am sure that it is difficult to compose in english and I have respect for that. But your message came across blurred.
So you know, I am not one for literal translations of spiritual texts as the definitive word of God. First, it is all about translation, and then interpretation. Perspective is personal, as is interpretation of meanings. No purity there. And second, by opposing interpretations of diverse "Messages from God" we could be doomed to endless suffering in the name of God.
I prefer the original idea that God Creator is the Compassionate, the Merciful.....
Respectfully.

Karen Armstrong:
Define "divine."
You can't?
Then what you say in your article is meaningless.

gibsonpolk:

The fact that religions share certain basic core moral precepts suggests that there must be a fundamental "pre-religious" morality which is wired into our psychic and cultural landscape, that religions tap into. This innate morality got there not through revelation but through evolution.

I don't mind this at all, but wonder if this inate hardwiring is not the spiritual equivilent of being "children of god". If we are, in christian metaphor,"of God", made in the likeness of god, children of God, then like me are wired with the imprint of my father and mother. Inate knowledge that needed to be quantified and understood in some fashion but was undefinable, and so was 'religified'.

Gibsonpolk:

You wrote, "This innate morality got there not through revelation but through evolution."

I've discussed this idea of "biological natural law" with On Faith posters before and, frankly, I still don't understand how it is supposed to work. Could you expand on your post somewhat?

The fact that religions share certain basic core moral precepts suggests that there must be a fundamental "pre-religious" morality which is wired into our psychic and cultural landscape, that religions tap into. This innate morality got there not through revelation but through evolution. It manifests itself emotionally as empathy and love. The stories that religions build around this core morality may be useful in reinforcing it, but they are not necessary. And they can be harmful because they defy reason, which when combined with compassion, is the basis of civil society. Those little voices we hear that tell us what's right and wrong come from a much deeper reserve than sunday school fairy tales.

I know that Jesus did not teach anything against gay people. Anything that remotely suggests this is an "add-on." If people want to practice their "add-on" cults, fine, but don't call it Christian, and don't seek justification for homophobia in the name of Christ, because you will find NONE there. And don't twist and contort the meaning of the word "compassion" to justify persecution of a group of people, because that is THE PROBLEM that we are disucssing here.

First of all, with regards to gay people, it is rude and impolite to imagine the logistics of gay sex, and then to project these images onto anyone whom you might suspect of being gay, and then condemning such people, even in such a benign and seemingly harmless way as merely saying, "I disapprove."

Would you imagine the sexual positions and logistics of your friends and realtives? Who would try and picture the sex acts of their parents? And then, such images are not real, but just your imagination; couldn't you imagine some pretty disturbing things about your parents, your brothers and sisters, your children, your neighbors?

Maybe if gay sex is so disturbing to so many religious people, then they should try and stop thinking about it so much, and they should try and stop imagining the physical logistics of sex among gay people, in general, even though no one knows about the specific sex life of any specfic person unless you ask them, or they volunarily tell you.

A person who Obsesses on gay people and the logistics of homo-sexual acts and the "mystique" of gay sex, such a person may, and more than may, probably is gay, themselves, and should try to work on that aspect of their own lives, rather than seeking to exploit and use their religious beliefs to support the persecution of a minority group.

Robinlands,

Not people,Allah of Islam hates people.
Quran 8.12 says *I(Allah) will cast Fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve/non-muslims*

Justillthen,

You are mistaken.Compassion is NOT a foundational element in all major religions/cults.Cult doesnt know what compassion is.

robinlandseade;
Thanks for a suggestion on how to grow compassion: volunteer among people you don't understand. I asked for some ideas on another part of this site, and this is a good one.

Jamil;
I have seen many examples of homosexual behavior among primates (monkeys, apes, etc.) documented, mostly as dominence rituals. My two male, sibling, neutered cats sometimes hump (gay incest, how shocking!) There's two examples for you.

CCNL

You are disturbing and yucky. Why don't you give it a rest? Your last two comments were obnoxious, in the extreme.

Dear Karen Armstrong,
Former Catholic nun,Vice-President of the British Epilepsy Association,English teacher,Historian on Banu Qurayza issue.

It is a good Idea.
It is a good Opinion and very nice word.
But,it is not Realistic,it is Utopia.

First of all,Compassion is NOT central to all religion/cult.Healty and Ideal Deal/Order can be based on correct and accurate mentality,not on Myth and Sophistry.

There is NOT any compassion im islam/submission and submission doesnt know what compassion is.What you tell about compassion and merciful for,only and only,*true believer muslims*,not for secular Muslims,not for Non-Muslims.On the contrary,Allah of Islam hates and curses non-muslims/infidels.
Is there compassion in islamic republic of Iran,Saudi Arabia,Afghanistan,from Indonesia to Morocco,to Minneapolistan in US and Birmingham in England ?

On the other hand,you can not have compassion with Timothy 2.12,Timothy 6.1 and World is flat.

Compassion is Civilization and Human Rights,
Compassion is Contemporary Values and Rationality,
Compassion is Man-Woman Equality,two plus two makes four,not *two equals one*.

Regards.

Homosexuality amongst animals is just as "yucky"!! (and disturbing!!)

The assumption that hatred and intolerance, (arguably the opposite of compassion), are valid religious stances, (even against vile homosexuality!), are degradations of godliness. I believe."

In more direct language, if you practice intolerance toward anything, homosexuality in this case, you are in opposition to compassion there. You, as the voice of intolerance, are the supporter of the baser attributes of intolerance and hatred, and so are a supporter of the baser and more temporal, darker aspects of human nature.
Come to that dark side, luke...
Oh, you are already there!

Christ and all the other great teachers of the Divine as our benevolent creator, presented pathways TOWARD THAT LIGHT. That means practicing 'Light'.
Compassion in the most fundamental diffusion of Love.
Give it a try!

jamil51:

"It is part of compassion not to let you do something which can harm you and spoil the society."
This is not a part of compassion directly, in my view. You speak of taking some action, or denying action, that is intended to stop "something" based on a set of moral values. Compassion is a virtue separate from this. It is far purer. It is a choice of HOW to be. How to see, hear, perceive, view, receive and give yourself.
It is more like being the heart of the christ, in that Christ gave us an example of living close to his Father.
Most humans live closer to a baser nature. "Christians" are definately included, if they act in the world with baser emotions.
Your post reflects a hatred of homosexuality. You are then interacting with homosexuality, homosexuals, and homosexual issues from baseness, and are without compassion in that realm. You then bring no heart of christ to that arena as you interact with it in the world.
Being compassionate opens the doorway to the divine, in my view, and so facilitates healing and peace.

"Dont mix it up with compassion."
I think that you do not want compassion to infiltrate your hatred, for it would release you from hatred. That can be frightening. Then what do we do? It is common to find something that we can brand as an "evil" that we can oppose, and then we practice the craft of war that we are addicted to.
Compassion is the healer, as Christ was.
Legislating morality, waring against anothers religion, wars for oil or to capture or kill an 'enemy'.... These all could be called degradations of the fundamental religious principal of compassion.
Not to mention love.
The assumption that hatred and intolerance, (arguably the opposite of compassion), are valid religious stances, (even against vile homosexuality!), are degradations of godliness. I believe.

"I need your answer! have you seen annimals of the same gender doing sex??????"

Check this out:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

Jamil51 said:

"It is part of compassion not to let you do something which can harm you and spoil the society."

WRONG! That is your delusional definition of compassion, but it is a defintion that you have tortured and twisted to support your own PERSONAL bigotry against your fellow man. For isn't that the basis of your so-called religious beliefs against homo-sexuality? your own mean and petty bigotry against people over whom you assume automatic superiority?

My dictionary defines compassion as "sorrow for the suffering or trouble of another."

PERIOD!

Jamil51 also said:

"Have't you seen the people's will spoken in California vote?"

It is an undemocratic principle to put up the rights of a minority to thw will of the majority. Somehow, this will be reversed, one way or another. Gay people will have equality eventually. This amendment, as all similar state amendments, will be ultimately repealed, and future generations will marvel at the stupidity that they were ever adopted in the first place.

And finally, Jamil51 said:

"I need your answer! have you seen annimals of the same gender doing sex??????
Tell me."

Not that it is relevant to any discussion of human virtue and ethics, but yes, Yes, YES!!! animals do engage in homosexuality.

Any more questions?

It is part of compassion not to let you do something which can harm you and spoil the society.
Have't you seen the people's will spoken in California vote?
I need your answer! have you seen annimals of the same gender doing sex??????
Tell me.
Dont mix it up with compassion.
Show me any human society without a set of Laws.

I agree with robinlandseadel.
Does everyone just go directly into confrontational approach? (But for the grace... here go I...) :-)
The point that Ms. Anderson presents is the suggestion that compassion is a foundational element in all major religions. Perhaps she is saying that it is THE foundational element. One might assume that it should be as we seek to understand the Creator Force.
That compassion is relegated to the bottom of the pile in most major religions PRACTICES is obvious, and IS the problem. If all religions practiced compassion as the central tenet of their spiritual expression, and viewed themselves and the world through that lens, we would have peace NOW. Seriously. There would be no war, and conflict as it arose would be exercised through compassion.
The fact that posters here went directly into attacking or defending their positions is an example of missing the point altogether.
These issues are all real. When we are without compassion for our opposition then we participate in prolonging conflict.
Most are invested in conflict as a definer of who we are. It supports ego.
Compassion can support ego as well. It just does a much better job of making for a happy ego, and a peaceful existence.

Dear Ms. Armstrong,

Great post, but perversely all the posts so far have been divisive to one degree or another. Here is yet another case of "There are people in this world who do not love their fellow men AND I HATE PEOPLE LIKE THAT!" Thank you Tom Lehrer.

Looking for a religious expression of compassion, it seems like the Buddhists came up with the best role models. The icons of Avalokitesvara and [in particular] his offspring Quan Yin present the best examples and best "faces" for compassion as central among moral habits and devotional practice. There really is no substitute for walking in another person's shoes. Becoming homeless is an incomparable moral education. Charitable work as an ongoing practice helps us overfed middle class types get as close to that experience as anything possibly can. There but for the grace. . .

This unyielding grudge that Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Conservative Protestantism has against gay people will be the final unraveling of these unreasoning and bigotted religious traditions.

And the reason for this is that gay people have at last found their voices, and they are speaking up. That is the problem, they are finally speaking up. They are coming out of the closet in droves, into the clear light of day, and in the clear light of day they shall remain.

People who hate the gays have many other political interests and programs. They do not eat-drink-and-sleep hatred of the gays; it is only one part of their political and religious agenda, which in turn is only one facet of their lives.

But gay people, in defense of themselves, are in this state of being, perpetually, every moment of their lives, waking and sleeping, twenty hours a day, three-hundred-and-sixty-five days a year. The homophobic religions, governments and political movements which have arisen to stamp out gay people and gay society are destined and doomed to failure, crashing in ignominious failure.

Jamil,

Tenth class post.....,tenth class post.....,it fits you.

OK,lets kill,murder all homosexuals,such as islamic republic Iran,will it be *compassion* ?
Iran is executing all homosexuals,is there Compassion in islamic Iran ?
Correct question; Does islamic Iran know what Compassion is ?

Jamil51

Your comments just prove my point. In your case, you use your religious belief to support your personal bigotry against your fellow man.

This is one more example of the compassionless and frigid religious attitude of the religious towards other people. How can religions create a charter of compassion, when compassion is not really something that most religious people are truely and sincerly interested in?

Compassion derives mysteriously from a person's inner self, and does not relate to cold-blooded and frigid religious doctrine that revels in the punishment and suffering of "others."

Take a hint Astoria.

The problem arises as:
We do not teach morality at our schools and show by our acts to our children.
It needs education from the grass root and across the board in all religions.
Adopting behaviour with in un-natural do not come under compassion.
Even annimals of same gender do not make love/sex.
Compassion do not mean freedom commit lower end acts contrary to goodness which is universal and hence found in religions accross the board.

I tried to log onto thie site, but it says HTTP Basic Access Denied. I'm not sure what that means nor how to get around it, anyone know?

Save us from religion, don't call on religions to do anything please. In the United States we practice;
Leave your religion at home,
Don’t take your religion to town...reminds me of an old Johnny Cash song.

Muslims by the way don't live by the golden rule, they never did, and perhaps they should. Compassion in Islam? The unfortunate thirteen year old Somali girl stoned to death recently by Islamists could have used "Islamic Compassion" if there was any, I'm sure they read the koran before hurling stones at a helpless 13-year old.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/01/AR2008110102052.html

Dozens of compassionate muslms stoned her to death; a 1000 Compassionate Muslims watched it. One billion Muslims stay silent.

There should be a movement by "compassionate" people to ban such practices. We are very tired of Empty slogans; young girls/humans should never die this way.

Ditto about compassion needed for homosexuals but their sexual activity is still "yucky" in most people's minds.

Other DOA reasons when expecting compassion amongst the religions:

We go into the Muslim mosque and find a call to violence against infidels and oppression to women.

We go into the Jewish synagogue and find myths and more calls to violence via the trumpets of Jericho.

We go into the Catholic/Christian church and find blood and body and pretty, wingie thingies but no Virgin Mary and a shout of being the only way to Heaven.

We go into Hindu temples and find cows and the lower class/caste cleaning up the dung.

We go into a Buddhist temple and find tributes to an obese and not so obese figurines and then there is that talk about reincarnation into one of ten realms of being.

This proposal is DOA.

Religious people the world round agree on one thing: hatred of gay people. Among these people, compassion is suspect. Hypocrisy reigns among them. This effectively gridlocks any effort towards tolerance.

Compassion is a human trait that is independent of religion. Look at the conservative Chrisian movement whose dogma and ideology is centered around the word "love" but which in reallity, is emotionally frigid, and unloving. They do not love non-Chrisians at all; and they may only love each other, grudgingly.

This is organized religion. I refer directly to Christians, because Christianity dominates the culture in which I live. But I could say the same about all the other religions of the world. They are, none of them, any better than each, nor any better than atheists.

Their inability to grasp this simple and obvious truth is why this proposal is dead-on-arrival.

That's a biggie. Compassion should cross all lines and have enough flexibility to allow people to concede that faiths can differ and that acceptance is the common ground. There are always absolutes everyone agrees on- no to murder, rape, things like that. But the hairier areas of pro- and anti-choice is one where compassion without acceptance or understanding does more harm than good. we have to be able to agree and accept that the conception of when life begins differs among people and faiths. those who are anti-choice must be able to accept those who are pro-choice have that right to believe as they do and exercise choice. I guess the idea is that we each attend to our own flocks. But true compassion i fo people, people who can talk to you, hold you, discourse with you. People who love and hate and grieve and rejoice. Compassion without care for these, for those in the here and now, is wasted compassion. No amount of fetal rescue amount to a hill of beans if the compassion ends at birth, or without care for the mother's right to her own body.

There will be no mandate until we accept gay men and women as full and wholehearted members of society. Compassion is useless without a belief in true equality and rights.