Prayer Helps Us Chip Away Our Egotism

This is a fabulous explanation of prayer. It's something I to have struggled with - what to say, how to not "ask" for something because I don't beleive God is dolling out prayer answers. What you've expressed here will help me the next time I pray.
Thank you for all your wonderful insights.
jodibash@gmail.com
http://bumpersticker.wordpress.com

Hello Karen:
Your insights are helpful and very worthwhile.
That's why I need to talk with you about the extreme political and physical brutality of the Archbishpos and the Roman emperors of the first 7 centuries of the Christian era.
These brutalities are totally inconsistent with the concept of a loving God.
I may have an explanation of this problem, but I need to talk it over with a theological authority.
A second problem is why the Church has remained totally silent about this problem. In the 6 parishes of my 84 years, not one has ever mentioned it. I discovered it by reading Gibbon in my mid fifties.
Have you any comments on these two problems?
Harry E. Thayer, oldsboy@sbcglobal.net

Hello Karen:
Your insights are helpful and very worthwhile.
That's why I need to talk with you about the extreme political and physical brutality of the Archbishpos and the Roman emperors of the first 7 centuries of the Christian era.
These brutalities are totally inconsistent with the concept of a loving God.
I may have an explanation of this problem, but I need to talk it over with a theological authority.
A second problem is why the Church has remained totally silent about this problem. In the 6 parishes of my 84 years, not one has ever mentioned it. I discovered it by reading Gibbon in my mid fifties.
Have you any comments on these two problems?
Harry E. Thayer, oldsboy@sbcglobal.net

Hello Karen:
Your insights are helpful and very worthwhile.
That's why I need to talk with you about the extreme political and physical brutality of the Archbishpos and the Roman emperors of the first 7 centuries of the Christian era.
These brutalities are totally inconsistent with the concept of a loving God.
I may have an explanation of this problem, but I need to talk it over with a theological authority.
A second problem is why the Church has remained totally silent about this problem. In the 6 parishes of my 84 years, not one has ever mentioned it. I discovered it by reading Gibbon in my mid fifties.
Have you any comments on these two problems?
Harry E. Thayer, oldsboy@sbcglobal.net

Hello Karen:
Your insights are helpful and very worthwhile.
That's why I need to talk with you about the extreme political and physical brutality of the Archbishpos and the Roman emperors of the first 7 centuries of the Christian era.
These brutalities are totally inconsistent with the concept of a loving God.
I may have an explanation of this problem, but I need to talk it over with a theological authority.
A second problem is why the Church has remained totally silent about this problem. In the 6 parishes of my 84 years, not one has ever mentioned it. I discovered it by reading Gibbon in my mid fifties.
Have you any comments on these two problems?
Harry E. Thayer, oldsboy@sbcglobal.net

Hello Karen:
Your insights are helpful and very worthwhile.
That's why I need to talk with you about the extreme political and physical brutality of the Archbishpos and the Roman emperors of the first 7 centuries of the Christian era.
These brutalities are totally inconsistent with the concept of a loving God.
I may have an explanation of this problem, but I need to talk it over with a theological authority.
A second problem is why the Church has remained totally silent about this problem. In the 6 parishes of my 84 years, not one has ever mentioned it. I discovered it by reading Gibbon in my mid fifties.
Have you any comments on these two problems?
Harry E. Thayer, oldsboy@sbcglobal.net

We don't pray to change god, or god's mind, or god's plans or actions, but to change ourselves. It's not god that causes or "allows" the evil and violence in the world; in a very real way it is me. (Of course I mean it is us.) The message of the prophets is that there is a way to change ourselves so that there will be established on this earth a true society of peace and justice, and we are destined to find that way.

We don't pray to change god, or god's mind, or god's plans or actions, but to change ourselves. It's not god that causes or "allows" the evil and violence in the world; in a very real way it is me. (Of course I mean it is us.) The message of the prophets is that there is a way to change ourselves so that there will be established on this earth a true society of peace and justice, and we are destined to find that way.

faithdweah@yahoo.co.uk
My Dearest One!
Greetings to you, I hope this mail will find you well & healthy and I hope we can established a relationship since we are meeting here for the first time, I have gone through a profile that speaks good of you on this site: I was impressed when i saw your profile and decide to communicate with you. It is my desire to know you, I like honesty, trust, love, caring,truth,& respect, I have all this qulities in me,easy going girl with sense of humour , very caring , understanding , honest and sincerely looking for a man that i can call my soul mate who will love me just the way i am a real partner to share life , share good and bad moment with , who is ready to marry me alone and stop searching ...........a very sincere person who stands by his word .kindly respond to me through my private mail box (faithdweah@yahoo.co.uk) so we can know ourself 's better.RESPECT is the key for understanding and tolerance among human beings. I hope to read from you if your are also interested. Thanks and hoping to hear from you soonext.
Miss Faith

truly wonderful, karen speaks at peak of her knowledge and approach .

Women rights in Islam as per Quran:

2:228, And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them
2:230, So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her
2:282, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.
4:3, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
4:11-12, Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:
4:34, Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
53:27, Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names
66:10, Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: “Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!”

Women rights as per Sahi Hadiths:

It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. (TR. P 430)
3. A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father or brother. (TR. P 431 )
4. A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. (TR. P 432)
5. She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. (TR. P 265)
6. A wife is forbidden to perform extra prayers (NAFAL) or observe fasting (other than RAMADAN) without the permission of her husband. (TR. P 300)
7. If prostration were a legitimate act other than to God, woman should have prostrated to her husband. (TR. P 428)
8. If a man is in a mood to have sexual intercourse woman must come immediately even if she is baking bread at a communal oven. (TR. P 428) 9. The marriage of woman to her man is not substantive. It is precarious. For example if the father of the husband orders his son to divorce his wife, he must do so. (TR. P 440)
11. Majority of women would go to hell. (Muslim P 1431)
12. If a woman refuses to come to bed when invited by her husband, she becomes the target of the curses of angles. Exactly the same happens if she deserts her husband's bed. (Bokhari P 93)
13. The women who are ungrateful to their men, are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." (Bokhari P 96)
14. A woman in many ways is deprived of the possession of her own body. Even her milk belongs to her husband. (Bokhari P 27)

SKM

Below are comemnts by a reader of my article on Islamic mumbo-jumbo. This readers explain about all organized religions:

"I expose the falsehoods of all man made religions. These religions are just for business purpose. Arab religion is a derivative of Hindu religion. In Hindu religion the religious class is asking the masses to worship the stones. Shiv linga and parvati stones are the famous stones. Shiv linga is a male sexual organ and parvati is a female sexual organ. The Arabs have taken the parvati stone to mecca and calling it a holy stone came directly from paradise .How stupid and ignorant are the followers of this religion. The Hindus are spinning around the stone in India seven times clockwise and the stupid followers of Arab religions have just made one change....They made it to anticlockwise....What a great change .This parvati stone is a outstretched vagina, through which head of a baby is delivering out. The followers of Arab religions including the converts are saluting and surrendering their heads to this stone three or five times a day. They are kissing this stone (Parvati vagina and head of baby)during their very holy holy pilgrimage. If you will disclose to them this reality of worshiping the stone, they will desperately reply.. "no we are not worshiping stone, we are worshiping our god through this stone". What an intelligent answer . Stupid followers of a sadist god. He create them and asking them to raise their asses many times a day.

These poor followers are scarred of these gods. He has threatened them if they will not worship him, he will screw them in hereafter life. At other place this god has used another weapon "sex in the paradise",72 virgins for men. But no body ask this god,what about females, what they will get? I think Arab god is gay god, jealous of females .

Yousef Tabish "

Posted by SKM

To: Karen Armstrong.

You are bullying around as the expert in islamic history and by your chief shot you try to soft- sell Islam cleverly hiding actual cruel and intolerant teachings of Koran and islam.

Below I am giving you hundreds of hateful, oppressive and killing verses from the same Koran. All the Islamic terrorists are incited and emboldened by these verses from Koran. What you have to say about these verses below?

Quran’s Teachings:
(Compiled by: Dr. Ali Sina: 2001)

What is the inspiration behind the hate and violence in Islamic terrorism?

The following is the essence of the message of the Quran, the rest are fairy tales and stories by some hypocritical Muslims.
Quran Surah 2: The Cow
1. Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 6
2. Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 10
3. A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 24
4. Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 39, 90
5. For disbelievers is a painful doom. 104
6. For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 114
7. Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 126
8. The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 162
9. They will not emerge from the Fire. 167
10. Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 174
11. How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 175
12. Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 191
13. War is ordained by Allah. 216
14. Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 217
15. Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 257
16. Allah does not guide disbelievers. 264
17. "Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 286

Quran Surah 3: The Family Of 'Imran
1. Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 4
2. Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 10
3. Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 12
4. Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 21
5. Theirs will be a painful doom. 77
6. All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 85
7. Disbelievers will have a painful doom. And they will have no helpers. 91
8. Disbelievers will have their faces blackened on the last day. They will face an awful doom. 105-6
9. Those who disbelieve will be burnt in the Fire. 116
10. The Fire is prepared for disbelievers. 131
11. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 151
12. Theirs will be an awful doom. 176
13. Disbelievers do not harm Allah, but will have a painful doom. 177
14. Disbelievers will have a shamful doom. 178
15. Disbelievers will go to Hell. 196

Quran Surah 4: Women
1. Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 14
2. For the disbelievers, We have prepared a painful doom. 18
3. For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 37
4. Hell is sufficient for their burning. 55
5. Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 56
6. Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 74
7. Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 76
8. Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 89
9. If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 91 ( Offering peace in Islam means surrendering. All 67 out of 68 wars of Muhammad were offensive, not defensive. The one defensive war, 'ditch' was not fought. That is why the Islamic terrorism 'jihad' will continue until the West "offers peace". This was made clear by Bin Laden.)
10. Those who oppose the messenger and become unbelievers will go to hell. 115
11. Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe and disbelieve again will never be forgiven by Allah. 137
12. For the hypocrites there will be a painful doom. 138
13. Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers into hell. 140
14. The hypocrites will be in the lowest part of hell and no one will help them there. 145
15. You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 150-151
16. For the disbelievers, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 161
17. God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 168-169

Quran Surah 5: The Table Spread
1. Those who deny Islam will be losers in the Hereafter. 5
2. Disbelievers are the rightful owners of Hell. 10
3. Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 33 (Anyone who resist Islam is deemed to be making war with Allah)
4. Disbelievers will have a painful doom. 36
5. Disbelievers will want to come out of the Fire, but will not. Their will be a lasting doom. 37
6. Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers. 45
7. Christians will be burned in the Fire. 72
8. Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 73
9. Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 86

Quran Surah 6: The Cattle
1. Many generations have been destroyed by Allah. 6
2. Allah will torment those how deny his revelations. 49
3. Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 70
4. When nonbelievers die, the angels will deliver to them doom and degradation. 93
5. Allah chooses to lead some astray, and he lays ignominy on those who disbelieve. 125
6. Allah will send everyone the Fire, except those he chooses to deliver. 128

Quran Surah 7: The Heights
1. How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. 4-5
2. Allah has made devils the protecting friends of disbeliveers. 27
3. Disbelievers choose devils as protecting friends and believe they are rightly guided. 30
4. Only believers go to heaven. 32
5. Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire. 36
6. Entire nations have entered the Fire. Some get a double torment. 38
7. Disbelievers will be excluded from heaven. Theirs will be a bed of hell. 40-41
8. Those in the Fire will cry out to those in heaven, saying: "Pour water on us." But Allah has forbidden that to disbelievers. 50
9. Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 177

Quran Surah 8: The Spoils of War
1. Allah will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, and smite their necks and fingers. 12
2. Disbelievers will be tormented in the Fire. 14
3. When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 15-16
4. Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve. 35
5. Those who disbelieve will be gathered into hell. 36
6. The angels smite the face and backs of disbelievers, saying: "Taste the punishment of burning!" 50
7. The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 55
8. Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 65
9. A prophet may not take captives until he has made a slaughter in the land. 67

Surah 9: Repentance
1. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 3
2. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 5
3. Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. 17
4. Give tiding of a painful doom to Christians and Jews. 34
5. If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom. 39
6. Disbelievers go to hell. 49
7. Those who vex the Prophet, for them there is a painful doom. 60
8. Those who oppose Allah and His messenger will burn in the fire of hell. 63
9. Allah promises hypocrites and disbelievers the fire of hell. Allah curses them. They will have a lasting torment. 68
10. Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 73
11. Allah will afflict disbelievers with a painful doom in this world and the Hereafter. 74
12. For disbelievers there will be a painful doom. 90
13. Don't pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 113
14. Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 123

Quran Surah 10: Jonah
1. Disbelievers will have a boiling drink and a painful doom. 4
2. Those who neglect Allah's revelations will make their home in the Fire. 7-8
3. Allah has destoyed entire generations. 13
4. Those who disbelieved will face a dreadful doom. 70
5. Allah drowned those who disbelieved his revelations. 73
6. Moses asked Allah to harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they would not believe until they saw the painful doom. 88

Quran Surah 11: Hud
1. Disbelievers wil1 end up in the Fire. 17
2. Those who oppose Islam and disbelieve in the Hereafter are guilty of the greatest wrong. 18-19
3. Those in the Fire will suffer as long as the heavens and earth endure. 106-7
4. Allah will fill hell with humans and jinn. 119

Quran Surah 13: The Thunder
1. Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire 5
2. Allah does not hear the prayer of disbelievers. 14
3. Those who do not answer Allah's call will go to hell. 18
4. Disbelievers will be tormented in this life, and suffer even more pain in the Hereafter. 33-34
5. The reward for disbelievers is the Fire. 35

Quran Surah 14: Abraham
1. Woe unto the disbelievers. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2
2. Allah sends some people astray. 4
3. Those who are in hell will be forced to drink festering water which they can hardly swallow. They will want to die, but they will not be able to. Theirs is a harsh doom. 16-17
4. Allah sends wrong-doers astray. He does whatever he likes. 27
5. Those in hell will be chained together. Their clothing will be made of pitch and fire will cover their faces. 49-50

Quran Surah 15: The Rock
1. Let the disbelievers enjoy life and let false hope beguile them. They will come to know! 2-3
2. Iblis will lead humans astray. Only perfect Muslims will be safe from him. The rest will go to hell. 39-43
3. Allah's doom is a dolorous doom. 50

Quran Surah 16: The Bee
1. Allah could have led everyone to the truth, but he chose not to. 9
2. Those who don't believe in the Hearafter are proud. 22
3. Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 27-29
4. Disbelievers are liars. 39
5. Allah will add doom to doom for those who disbelieve. 88
6. Those who oppose Islam will face an awful doom. 94

Quran Surah 17: The Children of Israel
1. Allah made hell to be a dungeon for disbelievers. 8
2. Allah has prepared a painful doom for those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. 10
3. Allah destroyed entire towns. 16
4. How many generations Allah has destroyed since Noah! 17
5. Allah intends to burn people in hell. 18
6. Allah makes it so that unbelievers cannot understand. 45-46
7. Allah will destroy every town before the Day of Resurrection. 58
8. Allah will send disbelievers astray. Then he'll burn them in hell, increasing the flames from time to time. 97-98

Quran Surah 18: The Cave
1. Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 29
2. Those who are condemned to the Fire know they will have no way to escape. 53
3. The worst wrong is to forget Allah's revelations. Allah covers their hearts and makes them deaf so that they will never believe the truth. 57
4. There is an appointed time in which the doomed will find no escape. 58
5. Allah has destroyed many towns. 59
6. On a certain day, Allah will present hell, in plain view, to the disbelievers. 100
7. Allah will welcome the disbelievers into hell. 102
8. Hell is the reward for disbelievers because they made a jest of Allah's revelations and messengers. 106

Quran Surah 19: Mary
1. Allah will pluck out from every sect those who should burn in hell. 69-70
2. Allah will record what disbelievers say and then prolong their torment. 77-79
3. Allah has sent the devils on the disbelievers to confuse them. 83
4. Allah has destroyed many generations. 98

Quran Surah 20: Ta Ha
1. Those who do not believe Allah's revelations will face doom in the Hereafter. 127
2. Allah has destroyed many generations. 128

Quran Surah 21: The Prophets
1. Allah destroyed entire towns, yet the people still disbelieved. 6
2. The people cried out for mercy, but Allah killed them anyway. 15
3. Disbelievers will not be able to put out the fire on their faces and backs. They will be stupefied and no one will help them. 39-40
4. Allah gave judgment and knowledge to Lot . He was a righteous man. (Genesis 19:7-38) 75
5. Every person alive at the time of the flood was evil. So Allah drowned them all. 77
6. The disbelievers will stare in terror at what Allah has in store for them. 97-99

Surah 22: The Pilgrimage
1. The devil will guide some to the punishment of the Flame. 3-4
2. Those who turn from the way of Allah will face ignominy in this world and burning in the next. 9
3. Whoever thinks that Allah will not give Muhammad victory should go hang himself. 15
4. Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 19-22
5. Allah will provide the disbelievers with a painful doom. 25
6. How many towns Allah has destroyed! 45
7. Those who disregard Allah's revelations are the owners of the Fire. 51
8. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have a shameful doom. 57
9. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will burn in the Fire. 72

Quran Surah 23: The Believers
1. Allah told Noah not to bother pleading for the people he was about to drown. 27
2. Those who don't believe in the Hereafter will receive extreme punishment from Allah. 74-77
3. When fire burns their faces, they will be glum. 104
4. Disbelievers will not be successful. 117

Surah 24: The Light
1. Scourge adulterers and adulteresses with 100 stripes. Do not show them any pity. Have a party of believers watch the punishment. 2
2. Only adulterers can marry adulteresses. Believers are not to marry them. 3
3. Vile women are for vile men, and vile men for vile women. 26
4. Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 31
5. Disbelievers are miscreants. 55
6. Disbelievers will never escape the Fire that will be their home. 57
7. It's okay for believers to own slaves. 58
8. The only true believers are those who believe in Allah and his messenger. 62

Quran Surah 25: The Criterion
1. Those who deny the coming of the Hour will be chained together and burned with fire. They will pray for their own destruction. 11-13
2. Allah will force the evil-doers to taste great torment. 19
3. It will be a hard day for disbelievers and wrong-doers. They will gnaw on their hands and wish they had chosen Islam. 26-27
4. Those who deny Muhammad's revelations will be destroyed. 36
5. Allah drowned everyone in the flood of Noah, and has prepared a painful doom for evil-doers. 37

Quran Surah 26: The Poets
1. Allah destroyed the people in Lot 's town with a dreadful rain. 172-3
2. Many will not believe until they see the painful doom. 201
3. Those who believe in another god are doomed. 213

Quran Surah 27: The Ant
1. Allah leads those who do not believe in the Hereafter astray by making things work out OK in this life, so that he can torment them forever in the next. They will get the worst punishment and will be the greatest losers. 4-5
2. "Allah destroyed them and their people, every one." 51
3. But he "saved those who believed." 53
4. Allah sent a dreadful rain on "those who stayed behind." 58
5. Whoever does something wrong will be thrown into the Fire. 90

Quran Surah 28: The Narrative
1. Allah has completely destroyed many communities. 58
2. Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom, saying: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? 62-64
3. Allah caused the earth to swallow Korah. 79-81
4. Never help disbelievers. 86 (Can Muslims in countries ruled in by non-Muslims be loyal to their country?)

Quran Surah 29: The Spider
1. Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah have no hope of mercy. For such there is a painful doom. 23
2. Only wrong-doers deny the revelations of Allah. 49
3. Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah are the losers. 52
4. The doom of hell will come upon disbelievers suddenly, when they least expect it. 53-55

Quran Surah 30: The Romans
1. Allah will tear Christians apart for ascribing partners to him. 13-14
2. Disbelievers will be brought to doom. 16
3. It's OK to own slaves. 28
4. Allah does not love disbelievers. 45
5. Allah seals the heart of disbelievers. (And then he burns them in the Fire.) 59

Quran Surah 31: Luqman
1. Those who mislead others from Allah's way and mock Islam will have a painful doom. 6-7
2. Allah will give disbelievers a little comfort for a little while, and then he'll torment them forever with a heavy doom. 23-24

Quran Surah 32: The Prostration
1. Allah will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together. 13
2. Allah: Taste the doom of immortality because of what ye used to do. 14
3. Those who used to deny the Fire will be tormented in it forever. 20
4. The worst thing you can do is to deny the revelations of Allah. 22

Quran Surah 33: The Clans
1. Don't obey disbelievers. 1 (Can Muslims in countries ruled in by non-Muslims be loyal to their country?)
2. Allah makes the deeds of unbelievers fruitless. 19
3. Allah cast panic into the hearts of the disbelievers. He killed some, and enslaved others. 25-26
4. Allah gave Zeyd’s wife, his own daughter in law to Muhammad in marriage. This was so that all Muslims would know that it's OK to marry your adopted son's ex-wife. 37
5. Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk. 48
6. It's OK to own slaves. 50
7. Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 50-51
8. It's OK to own slaves. 55
9. Those who malign Allah, Muhammad, and Muslims will be cursed by Allah in this life and with doom in the Hereafter. 57
10. Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 60-61
11. Allah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming fire, wherein they will abide forever. 64-65
12. The disbelievers will be burned in the Fire with a double torment. 66-68

Quran Surah 34: Saba
1. Those who challenge the revelations of Muhammad will have a painful doom. 5
2. Those who disbelieve in the Hereafter will be tormented. 8
3. But some of the jinn Allah burned with flaming Fire. 12
4. Those who strive against Allah's revelations will be brought to the doom. 38
5. Those who worshipped the jinn will taste the doom of the Fire. 41
6. Allah hates those who ignore his messengers. 45
7. Those who are cast into hell be terrified when they see that they have no escape. Then they will believe. But it will be too late. 51-52

Quran Surah 35: The Angels
1. Those who disbelieve will have an awful doom. 7
2. Allah sends whoever he wants astray. 8
3. Allah hates disbelievers. 26
4. Disbelievers will burn forever in the fire of hell. Allah will keep them alive so that he can torture them forever. When they repent and ask for mercy, he will ignore them. 36-7
5. He who disbelieves, his disbelief will be on his own head. 39
6. Allah has blinded the disbelievers so that they cannot see the truth. So it don't bother warning them.
7.

Quran Surah 36: Ya Sin
8. They will go to hell anyway. 8-10
9. Allah has destroyed many entire generations. 31
10. If Allah feels like it, he will drown everyone. 43
11. Allah will burn the disbelievers in hell. 63-4

Quran Surah 37: Those Who Set The Ranks
1. Those who refuse to believe in Muhammad's revelations will face a painful doom. 31-38
2. Those in hell must eat from a tree with the heads of devils, and then drink boiling water. After that they return to hell. 62-68
3. Allah drowned everyone except Noah and his family in the flood. 82
4. Allah tells Abraham in a dream to sacrifice his son. (But is the son Ishmael or Isaac?) 102
5. Allah killed everyone in Sodom except for Lot and his family. 136
6. No one is against Allah, except those who burn in hell. 162-3
Quran Surah 38: Sad
1. Allah has destroyed many generations. 3
2. Those who doubt will soon taste Allah's doom. 8
3. Those who deny the messengers deserve doom. 14
4. Those who wander from the way of Allah will have an awful doom. 26
5. Those who disbelieve will burn in the Fire. 27
6. The transgressors will roast in the Fire and be forced to drink boiling liquids followed by ice cold drinks. 55-9
7. Iblis asks Allah to let him hang around and mislead humans. Allah allows him to do so, and Iblis leads all humans to hell except for the single-minded slaves. Allah agrees, and plans to fill hell with Iblis and his followers. 79-85

Quran Surah 39: The Troops
1. Tell the disbelievers to enjoy themselves now, because later they will be owners of the Fire. 8
2. The losers will be those who lose themselves and their families on the Day of Resurrection. They will be surrounded by fire. 15-16
3. No one will be able to help those that Allah torments in the Fire. 19
4. Woe unto those who forget Allah. They are in plain error. 22
5. Allah sends some people astray. For them there is no guide. 23
6. The worst thing you can do is tell a lie against Allah. The home of disbelievers is hell. 32
7. Allah sends some people astray. For them there is no guide. 36
8. Surrender to Allah before he sends the doom upon you suddenly. 54-55
9. Those who lie about Allah will be sent to hell and will have their faces blackened. 60
10. Losers are those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah. 63
11. Those ascribe a partner to Allah (like the Christians) will be among the losers. 65
12. Those who disbelieve will be driven into hell. 71-72

Quran Surah 40: The Believer
1. Allah sent an awful punishment at the time of Noah. 5
2. Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 6
3. Allah greatly abhors those who disbelieve. 10
4. When the doom comes, the hearts of the doomed will choke in their throats, and no one will help them. 18
5. Those who ignore Allah's "clear proofs" will be seized and punished severely. 22
6. Those that Allah sends astray will have no helper or guide. 33
7. Allah deceives those who doubt. 34
8. The prodigals will be owners of the Fire. 43
9. The doomed will be exposed to the Fire morning and evening. 46
10. Those in hell will beg to be relieved from the Fire's torment for just a day. But the prayer of a disbeliever is in vain. 49-50
11. Those who bicker about Allah's revelations are filled with pride. 56
12. Those who scorn Allah will go to hell. 60
13. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are perverted. 63
14. Those who deny the Scripture and Allah's messengers will be dragged through boiling water and thrust into the Fire. 70-72
15. Allah will taunt the Christians in hell, saying: Where are all my partners that you used to believe in? 73
16. Thus does Allah send astray the disbelievers (in his guidance). 74
17. Those who scorn will go to hell. 76
18. When they see Allah's doom they will believe in Allah. But their faith will not save them. The disbelievers will be ruined. 84-85

Quran Surah 41: Fusilat
1. Woe unto the idolaters who disbelieve in the Hereafter. 6
2. Allah will make life miserable for those who deny his revelations and then he will torment them forever in the Hereafter. And they will not be helped. 15-16
3. The enemies of Allah will be gathered into the Fire where their skin, ears, and eyes will testify against them. 19-20
4. Allah will make those who disbelieve taste an awful doom. Their immortal home will be the Fire, since they denied Allah's revelations. 27-28
5. Those who disbelieve will taste hard punishment. 50

Quran Surah 42: The Counsel
1. While some lounge in the Garden, others will roast in the Flame. 7
2. Those who argue about Allah will have his wrath upon them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 16
3. Allah sometimes kills people for misbehaving. 34
4. Allah sends some people astray and then punishes them for it by burning them in the Fire. 44-46
5. Allah makes some people barren. (Whenever he feels like it.) 50

Quran Surah 43: Ornaments of God
1. When the Egyptians angered Allah, he drowned them all. 55
2. Those who argue and do wrong will have a painful doom that will come upon them suddenly. 65-66
3. The guilty are tormented forever in hell. Allah will not relax their punishment. 74-75

Quran Surah 44: Smoke
1. Those in torment will claim to believe and ask Allah for relief. But he will refuse since they will return to their disbelief. 11-16
2. Those in hell must eat from a tree like molten brass that burns their bellies. Then boiling water will be poured on their heads. 43-48

Quran Surah 45: Crouching
1. Those who hear and reject Allah's revelations are sinful liars. Give them tidings of a painful doom. 7-8
2. Those who joke about Allah's revelations will go to hell. Theirs will be an awful doom. 9-10
3. Those who disbelieve in Allah's revelations will have a painful doom of wrath. 11
4. Allah sends some people astray, making it impossible for them to hear or see. 23
5. Those who disbelieve are guilty folk. 31

Quran Surah 46: The Wind-Curved Sandals
1. Disbelievers will be rewarded with the ignominious doom of the Fire. 20
2. The guilty will face a wind with a painful torment. 25
3. Allah has destroyed entire towns. 27
4. Allah will taunt the disbelievers that he torments in the fire, saying: "Taste the doom for that ye disbelieved." 34

Quran Surah 47: Muhammad
1. Allah makes the works of disbelievers vain. 1
2. Those who disbelieve follow falsehood. 3
3. Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 4
4. Allah will damn the disbelievers and make all their actions fruitless. 8-9
5. Disbelievers may eat and be happy now, but the Fire will be their final home. 12
6. Those in the Garden will drink delicious wine, while those in the Fire will drink boiling water that will tear apart their intestines. 15
7. Allah curses people by making them deaf and blind. 23
8. Angels will gather them together and smite their faces and backs. 27
9. Allah will make the actions those who disbelieve fruitless. 32
10. Those who disbelieve will never be pardoned by Allah. 34-35

Quran Surah 48: Victory
1. Those who think an evil thought concerning Allah will be cursed and sent to hell by him. 6
2. Allah has prepared a flame for the disbelievers. 13
3. If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 16-17
4. But if you're willing to fight for Allah, he will provide you with lots of booty. 19-20
5. Allah punished those who disbelieved with a painful punishment. 25
6. Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 29

Quran Surah 49: The Private Apartments
1. Do not lift your voice when in Muhammad's presence. Those who subdue their voices are righteous and will receive an immense reward from Allah. 1-3

Quran Surah 50: Oaf
1. Allah has destroyed many entire generations. 36

Quran Surah 51: The Winnowing Winds
1. Accursed are the conjecturers who ask: When is the Day of Judgment? It is the day they will be tormented by the Fire. 10-14
2. Woe to the disbelievers. 60

Quran Surah 52: The Mount
1. Those who deny the existence of hell will be thrust into its Fire. 11-16
2. Those who disbelieve are trapped. 42

Quran Surah 54: The Moon
1. Allah sent a storm of stones on Lot's folk, killing all but Lot 's family. 34
2. The suffering in hell will be more wretched and bitter than anything experienced on earth. 46-48
3. Allah destroyed many people, but does anyone remember anymore? 51

Quran Surah 55: The Beneficent
1. The guilty deny hell. But after they die they go circling between it and fierce, boiling water. 43-44

Quran Surah 56: The Event
1. But those on his left hand will face scorching wind, scalding water, and black smoke. 42-43
2. Those who deny Allah and the Hereafter will eat from the Zaqqum tree and drink boiling water. 51-54
3. Allah will welcome the rejecters and erring with boiling water and a roasting in the hell fire. 92-94

Quran Surah 57: Iron
1. The home of disbelievers is the Fire, a hapless journey's end. 15
2. Those who disbelieve and deny Allah's revelations are the owners of the fire. 19

Quran Surah 58: She That Disputeth
1. For disbelievers is a painful doom. 4
2. For disbelievers is a shameful doom. 5
3. Don't make friends with Allah's enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 14-15
4. Those who turn others away from the way of Allah will have a shameful doom. They are rightful owners of the Fire. 16-17
5. Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger will be among the lowest. 20
6. On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers (or their mothers, daughters, or sisters). 22

Quran Surah 59: Exile
1. Allah cast fear into the hearts of the disbelieving People of the Scripture. Their home in the Hereafter will be the Fire. 2-3
2. The disbelieving people of the Scripture are liars. 11
3. The devil and disbelievers will be in the Fire. 16-17
4. The owners of the Garden and the owners of the Fire are not equal. 20

Quran Surah 60: She That is to be Examined
1. Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 1
2. Don't be friends with those who have warred against you because of religion. Whoever makes friends with them is a wrong-doer. 9
3. Don't be friends with those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. They are Allah's enemies. 13

Quran Surah 61: The Ranks
1. Allah loves those who fight for him. 4
2. Allah leads some people astray. 5
3. The worst thing you can do is tell a lie about Allah. 7

Quran Surah 62: The Congregation
1. A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 5

Quran Surah 63: The Hypocrites
1. Allah seals the hearts of those who believe and then disbelieve so that they can understand nothing. 3
2. Disbelievers are perverted. They are the enemy, confounded by Allah. 4
3. Don't bother to ask Allah to forgive the disbelievers. He will never forgive them. 6

Quran Surah 64: Mutual Disillusion
1. Those who disbelieve will have a painful doom. 5
2. Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 10

Quran Surah 66: Banning
1. Muhammad's wives need to be careful. If they criticize their husband, Allah will replace them with better ones. 5
2. The fuel of the Fire is men and stones. 6
3. Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 9
4. The wives of Noah and Lot (who were both righteous) betrayed their husbands and are now in the Fire. 10
Quran Surah67: The Sovereignty
1. Disbelievers will go to hell where they will hear its roaring and boiling. 6-7
2. Who will protect the disbelievers from a painful doom? (Nobody) 28

Quran Surah 69: The Reality
1. Those who do not believe in Allah will be chained up and cast into hell-fire where they will eat filth. 30-35

Quran Surah 71: Noah
1. Those that Allah drowned in Noah's flood were then tortured forever in the Fire. 25
2. Noah asked Allah to drown all the disbelievers. 26

Quran Surah 72: The Jinn
1. The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 15-17
2. Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will dwell forever in the fire of hell. 23

Quran Surah 73: The Enshrouded One
1. Allah will take care of the deniers. He will tie them up, burn them in a raging fire, and feed them food that chokes them. 11-13

Quran Surah 74: The Cloaked One
1. The last day will be a day of anguish for disbelievers. 9-10
2. Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 16-17
3. The fire of hell shrivels humans and spares nothing. 27-29
4. Allah has appointed angels to tend the Fire and has prepared stumbling blocks for those who disbelieve. He sends some people (whoever he wants) astray. 31
5. Allah is the font of fear. 56

Quran Surah 76: "Time" or "Man"
1. Allah has prepared chains, manacles, and a raging fire for the disbelievers. 4
2. Don't obey disbelievers. 24

Quran Surah 77: The Emissaries
1. Allah destroyed "the former folk." 16
2. Woe unto the repudiators on that day! 19, 24, 28, 34, 40, 45, 49

Quran Surah 79: "Those Who Drag Forth"
Those who rebel will go to hell. 37-39

Quran Surah 80: "He Frowned"
1. Disbelievers are wicked people. On the last day they will be in darkness and have dust on their faces. 40-42

Quran Surah 82: The Cleaving
1. The wicked will burn in hell forever. 82

Quran Surah 84: The Sundering
1. Some folks will be thrown into a scorching fire. 11-12
2. Disbelievers will be given a painful doom. 22-24

Quran Surah 87: The Most High
1. Those who are flung into the great Fire will neither live nor die. 12-13

Quran Surah 88: The Overwhelming
1. On that day many will be sad and weary. Scorched by the fire, drinking boiling water, with only bitter thorn-fruit to eat. 2-7
2. Allah will punish disbelievers with the direst punishment. 23-24

Quran Surah 89: The Dawn
1. Allah poured on them the disaster of His punishment. 13

Quran Surah 90: The City
1. Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have the Fire placed over them like an awning. 19-20

Quran Surah92: The Night
1. Those who deny Allah's revelations must endure the flaming fire. 14-16

Syed K. Mirza

Dear Karen,

I admire your books as they speak I think, with a very profound understanding of God/The Absolute in religion.

I like one key Buddhist prayer which enjoins us all to wish that all beings may be free of suffering and pain and be happy and at peace. Since so many in the world are touched profoundly by suffering, surely one of the best ways to enter into a concious awareness of the Absolute is by having compassion for others and other beings, whatever one's faith or lack thereof.

Dear Karen,
I am praying for you.
In the Orthodox Church, prayer is considered to be the human respond to an invitation from God for a love conversation. A pure prayer doesn’t involve a request of favors by human but rather it is dialog between two lovers.

The Bible says in John 3:16: “For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”

Love is the only thing that gives meaning and purpose to humanity. There is no other road to God except through His love.
Love
Salah

to whom does karen armstrong "pray", given her view of "God"? to herself or to some unknown entity i cannot find in any of her writings?

am being serious.........

Dear Ms Karen Armstrong,

Islam as a believe system is "Adab" or "attitude" of "'Abd" in the front of Unknowability about Absolut Reality Itself or we labeled as "Allah". For Allah itself, Shalat (prayer), or "dua" or others ritual is not important. To "proof" that "we or everything" are 'Abd Allah' and "Believe" that Allah, YHWH or whatever you call it is "Exist" with "All Possible Expression" we need to be "Aslim and Islam" and doing Shalat or dua or other activities (not only ritual but daily activities) on the coridor of Islam as believe system. Coridor of believe in Islam is Shirathaal Mustaqiim. Shirathaal Mustaqiim is Knowledge (actually KNOW-L-EDGE is MONK-L-Edge, Monk on the edge of Maia Reality and Absolute reality) about “me and You and You and me” (‘abd Allh). Implementation of Knowledge according “me as a Moslem” is Tauhid Base Society or Knowledge Base Society or as a member of knowledable communitty. Practical aspects of Know-L-Edge in Islam as Tauhid Base Society, as Ukhuwah Islamiyah, as Ummah, as Rahmaatan Lil aalamin etc…etc are syahadah, shalat, zakat, ramadhan, and the last but "not must" is Hajj as finishing point that we are really 'Abd Allah and believe “True Knowledge about Allah(Tauhid or Shibghatallahi in Qur'an, see QS 2:138)”. (Beside those 5 Pillar Of Islam as al-Mukminun and then to be a Mukmin need also to believe on 6 pillar of Iman. In this case, I define a Mukmin is a person who pray, dua, and doing other life activies within coridor of Islam and believe that the method to pray or to do something according Islam is the optimal method.)

If you, as a religions Researcher still have questions like this :

“If God knows everything and is, as the Qur’an says, closer to me than my jugular vein, why did he need to hear my requests?
Why should God answer my prayers, when he so clearly fails to heed the prayers of many hopeless people throughout the world?
Or others similar questions .

I think, until now you did not know anything about religions as a reality and as a part of our civilization (and of couse as a one of economic megamachine in the World beside science and technology), you didn’t know about Knowledge of The God or Monoteism Religions or the path to be know the Face of The God. In my view you still look like "blind LITERATUR TAILOR", a Homer like story teller with a thousand assumptions and references, and all your books still did not reach truly and really understanding about Religion , or a TRUE KNOWLEDGE of The Truth, or Knowledge Of The God or everything you call it.

That my comments, I'm very sorry for my bad English. I’m not native English writer or speaker. I’am Indonesian.

Thx. Atmonadi
(pls note that the opini of Islam as belive system in this comment is on my view as Muslim. So, don't look to any islamic literatur except on Qur'an, may be you cant found it).

Dear Ms Karen Armstrong,

Islam as a believe system is "Adab" or "attitude" of "'Abd" in the front of Unknowability about Absolut Reality Itself or we labeled as "Allah". For Allah itself, Shalat (prayer), or "dua" or others ritual is not important. To "proof" that "we or everything" are 'Abd Allah' and "Believe" that Allah, YHWH or whatever you call it is "Exist" with "All Possible Expression" we need to be "Aslim and Islam" and doing Shalat or dua or other activities (not only ritual but daily activities) on the coridor of Islam as believe system. Coridor of believe in Islam is Shirathaal Mustaqiim. Shirathaal Mustaqiim is Knowledge (actually KNOW-L-EDGE is MONK-L-Edge, Monk on the edge of Maia Reality and Absolute reality) about “me and You and You and me” (‘abd Allh). Implementation of Knowledge according “me as a Moslem” is Tauhid Base Society or Knowledge Base Society or as a member of knowledable communitty. Practical aspects of Know-L-Edge in Islam as Tauhid Base Society, as Ukhuwah Islamiyah, as Ummah, as Rahmaatan Lil aalamin etc…etc are syahadah, shalat, zakat, ramadhan, and the last but "not must" is Hajj as finishing point that we are really 'Abd Allah and believe “True Knowledge about Allah(Tauhid or Shibghatallahi in Qur'an, see QS 2:138)”. (Beside those 5 Pillar Of Islam as al-Mukminun and then to be a Mukmin need also to believe on 6 pillar of Iman. In this case, I define a Mukmin is a person who pray, dua, and doing other life activies within coridor of Islam and believe that the method to pray or to do something according Islam is the optimal method.)

If you, as a religions Researcher still have questions like this :

“If God knows everything and is, as the Qur’an says, closer to me than my jugular vein, why did he need to hear my requests?
Why should God answer my prayers, when he so clearly fails to heed the prayers of many hopeless people throughout the world?
Or others similar questions .

I think, until now you did not know anything about religions as a reality and as a part of our civilization (and of couse as a one of economic megamachine in the World beside science and technology), you didn’t know about Knowledge of The God or Monoteism Religions or the path to be know the Face of The God. In my view you still look like "blind LITERATUR TAILOR", a Homer like story teller with a thousand assumptions and references, and all your books still did not reach truly and really understanding about Religion , or a TRUE KNOWLEDGE of The Truth, or Knowledge Of The God or everything you call it.

That my comments, I'm very sorry for my bad English. I’m not native English writer or speaker. I’am Indonesian.

Thx. Atmonadi
(pls note that the opini of Islam as belive system in this comment is on my view as Muslim. So, don't look to any islamic literatur except on Qur'an, may be you cant found it).

Well Said Karen.Keep up the good works.
Sincerely, I admire your thinking of honesty and courage.

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Ms. Karen Armstrong:
I am looking for the possibility of your reviewing my book The Quran & Modern Science.
It is a small book but loaded with interesting analysis. Please respond to my email if you decide to review or edit this book.

Mohamed Tawfik

Ms. Karen Armstrong:
I am looking for the possibility of your reviewing my book The Quran & Modern Science.
It is a small book but loaded with interesting analysis. Please respond to my email if you decide to review or edit this book.

Mohamed Tawfik

You are a third rate thinker, a fictional historian, and a poorly developed human being. That you pass for someone with influence is so sad I weep for us all. But I weep mostly for you. Please, do not write or speak in public about Buddha. Please?

dear all my friends...peace be upon u...

read Surah Al-Ikhlas....than u will find it thru your heart.

Salam

Yes, Quran gives me a touching feeling, a very touching that I even feel the sharp sword touch my neck.

If you see this verse as a non muslim:

9:5 And so, when the sacred months are over [6] , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, [7] and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place [8] ! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

you don't know the heart at all and the heart shouldn't submit to a tyrannical ruler and cruel master, but you seem to fall for that.

And I am not quoting from hadiths. Directly from Quran.

Fox

Hi Everybody,

Whatevery you write, think or say against Islam, its prophet and Quran, you can not change the fact that Quran, a random part from it, even its translation, creates a touching feeling in you and you just tend to listen to it and can not stop yourself from listening to it. I am so sure that the same effect has occured in your hearts and because of those interesting feelings, which make your soul and hearts soften, you get
convinced and affected and got frightened of that it would harm your faith in Christanity, Judaism or what you believe. That is why you started reading a lot about Islam, its prophet and the biggest miracle Quran, to find a cure to demolish the "satanic" and "magical" feelings in your souls created by Quran, to convince yourself that it could not be true.. Sorry, your soul, subconcious already confessed to itself that Islam and Quran is the right path to God (Allah, or whatever you call the only One Creator) and completes some bricks, which you always thought and realized to be missing until now..

What is admitted by your hearts, is not admitetd your brains.. With time, you will overcome it hopefully, as many did. Or you will live teh fight between your heart and brain forever and die in a sad manner.

That is why you are attacing Islam, its prophet and Quran by using so called hadiths (always not possible to prove to be true %100) and by reflecting some verses as samples of violence. (If there is a battle, or risk for battle, it is a human right to fight back. It is a very basic the strategy in military or business to be proactive, to decrease the risk factors.
That is one of the reasons why the Crusaders also attacked Muslims.)

I just laugh at the bad descriptions and swears
for Muhammed (SAV) (in fact all 1,2 billion muslims in his name). It reflects your desperate situation.

What we suffer and have suffered until now, is the results of that the muslims really got far away from the real message, we just heard it but not listened to it and did not live. I am a little pessimistic about the future for the current muslim population because we are still missing (forgot to read and see it) the real message. However, our trasure the Quran is there, and what we should do is just to hug it and feel it in our hearts again. I hope we do it.

However, after i read the messages here, i am more optimistic for the western countries, which contain people seeking real faith and solid belief and read Quran for this. In the next years , hopefully, there will be more and more muslims in western countries and that will add
power to Islam and its message.

Regards,

A Circassian believer

Ms Armstrong,

Please respond to Ali Sina.

Your interpretation of Islam misleads people who lack knowledge of Islam and approach Islam from your rose-tinted perspective, determined to fit the history into a worldview of tolerance, multiculturalism, pluralism and cultural relativism.

Sir Winston Churchill identified two of the greatest threats to your freedom today - Nazism and communism, although the appeasers of his time called him a fool. He was right on both occasions, and is considered one of the greatest leaders of all time by the British and Americans. He worked in Muslim countries prior to becoming Prime Minster. He won a Nobel prize for his literary scholarship. This great man identified Islam as an ideology more dangerous than the ideology of Nazism.

What you need to understand is that Muhammad's ideology is the exact opposite of your own, and Muhammad's ideology requires the complete destruction of all other belief systems, just as Nazism requires the destruction of all other belief systems.

Somehow I doubt that your knowledge, wisdom, education, scholarship or track record is in anyway comparable to that of Sir Winston Churchill. Unlike you, Churchill wasn't blinded to reality by his own ideology.

The sad truth is as Churchill understood it. Muhammad was a gangster godfather type character who ordered the assassination of anyone who spoke out against him, who kept slaves for his own pleasure, who kept a harem of wives for his own pleasure, who encouraged his men to rape female captives in order to bring shame on his enemies, who had sex with children for his own pleasure, who had people tortured to death by cutting off their limbs and then holding heated nails in front of their eyes until they went blind, and then left them in this condition in the heat of the sun and refused them water when they pleaded as they died.

Only the most foolish person would attempt to defend the ideology and belief system of such a man when people are being murdered all around the world by people who study the life of this killer, dress like him, follow his ideology and use his terror tactics to strike terror into the hearts of today’s unbelievers.

"Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.’" (8:12)

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly." (8:60)

"When We decide to destroy a population, We send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then We destroy them utterly." (17:16)

SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL ON ISLAM:

"After the fall of Khartoum and the retreat of the British armies the Mahdi became the absolute master of the Soudan (Sudan). Whatever pleasures he desired he could command, and, following the example of the founder of the Mohammedan faith, he indulged in what would seem to Western minds gross excesses. He established an extensive harem for his own peculiar use, and immured (imprisoned) therein the fairest captives of the war. The conduct of the ruler was imitated by his subjects."

"the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund (declining), Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome." [Churchill understood that only superior technology had protected Europe from Islam. In the past 50 years, ignorant politicians who’d never studied Islam then opened up our defences and invited Islam into the West with open arms, bypassing that technology]

"the Mein Kampf of war" [Referring to the Qur’an. Churchill considered that the teachings of the Qur’an represented a form of Nazism, yet today’s politicians, in their wisdom, consider that a combination of appeasement, lying to the public about Islam being a “religion of peace”, and criminalizing the truth is the most effective way to prevent genocide in the future. Based on his statements concerning both Islam and appeasement, I do not believe that Sir Winston Churchill would ever have supported such a dangerously misguided strategy]

"All the warlike operations of Mohammedan peoples are characterised by fanaticism"

"What the horn is to the rhinoceros, what the sting is to the wasp, the Mohammedan faith was to the Arabs" [Churchill believed that the Islamic faith was itself a formidable weapon of war]

"degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity." [Churchill saw that followers of the prophet engaged little 9 year old girls in sexual relationships, as they sort to emulate his ‘perfect example’]

Your understanding of Islam is completely and utterly wrong. Please listen to people who have much deeper knowledge and understanding of Islam, such as Ali Sina (an apostate), and please remember two words, the next time you are tempted to appease Islam again: "Winston Churchill."

HERE IS THE CONTEXT

During the reign of the Prophet in the city/state of Medina early 7th century, every one was a full citizen with full civic and religious rights: the new Muslims, Christians, the Jews and the Pagans of Arabia. The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")The Prophet who had just established the first Islamic city/state in Medina, had signed a treaty with-among others-the Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah-to defend the new state and where the treaty stipulated that the members of this tribe being citizens of the new Islamic city-state agreed never to ally themselves with the enemies of the infant Islamic state nor to carry arms against it in exchange for granting them-the Jewish tribe- the aforementioned full citizenship rights including guarantying their protection and security. However the Jewish tribe conspired with enemies of the Islamic state and committed treason, treachery and violated the treaty. The Islamic state, lead by the Prophet defatted the aggressors on the battlefield; thereafter the Prophet and the leaders of the Jewish tribe mutually agreed to appointing an acceptable and neutral arbitrator/Judge to rule on the violation of the treaty which the Jewish tribe violated and the Judge ruled that the Jewish tribe was guilty of both joint military aggression with the enemies of the infant state as well as treason as they were citizen of Islamic state. The judge ordered the death penalty to be carried out against the treacherous members of the tribe who committed treason and aggression-as any state would do in self-defense. The numbers of those deserving the death penalty is exaggerated by Jewish sources as usual.

God site. Thanks!

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yqmk lpnh vclxkodzt qakj lfteab jbaoxrnl atljhfziq [URL]http://www.hybmq.rbgol.com[/URL] zfcyrdg wjqykvzu

nvuf gqzschro tpzhvkqrb jxzc ctbrqhkw bamenxryf sqbnokpzl

Victoria,
You're starting to think wrong then. All you have to do is to read the tafsirs to get the historical context and then work it out for yourself.

I was always told that 9:5 and 9:29 were revealed in times of war when the Muslims were being attacked or the pagans were treacherous to them by breaking the treaties. That was what I was told for a long time, and this is what I see is still being propagated to people like you.

But then I read the tafsirs for myself and found out that surah 9 was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah 9 AH. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/maududi/mau9.html

This is not the only evidence since other tafsirs also say this.

However, it is common knowledge that Muhammad conquered Mecca in Ramadan 8AH. Thus, 9:5 and 9:29 cannot be revealed before the conquest of Mecca but after.

If you read the sira and hadiths, you'd know that by 9AH the entire Arabian peninsula had fallen sway to the Muslims. There was no more wars. Muhammad had won. There were no pagan opposition left. For Westerners read Mubarakpuri's Ar-Raheem al-Makhtum or Haykal's history of Muhammad.

By 9AH Muhammad had felt confident enough to take his war-mongering outside Arabia - i.e. to Tabuk in Syria (deep in Byzantine terrority).

So in this context if you read 9:1-4 you'd see it is Muhammad who 'abrogated' or 'cancelled' all the treaties he had with the remaining pagans and then let loose his men to hunt them down and kill them if they don't convert to Islam or if they're people of the book to pay jizyah with humiliation.

The treaty of Hudaibiyya which is often trumpeted as the context was long past and broken by Muhammad when he conquered Mecca.

So please don't fall for the line that surah 9 was revealed in the context of war when the Muslims were on the defensive. The history does not support this but the entirely opposite case.

Salaam,
Ahmed

ahmed- im starting to think youre getting this from a website- provide the text with your knowledge of history as i find your contention historically innaccurate-

Victoria wrote:
even ahmed can tell you that the ayats (verses) youre referring to about violence toward non-believers are those who were actively engage in treachery against the muslim community at that time-

Ahmed replies:
Not true. If one examines the historical context of Surah 9 one is left in no doubt that violence towards non-believers had nothing to do with the treachery by non-Muslims against Muslims but the other way round.

I know it is an oft-repeated mantra that the violent verses in the Quran were only in the context of war or treachery against the Muslims. However, the historical context is against this belief. If anything Muhammad was the treacherous one while the non-Muslims were the honorable party.

Evidence for Ahmed's bold assertion?

The timing of the revelation of 9:5 and 9:29 and the sahih hadiths in which Muhammad told his followers to apply 9:29 outside Arabia.

Salaam,
Ahmed

no its not fair to use anti- anything sites really-
whe i post anything anytime i use sites written by those involved-

if its a jewish issue- i only post jewish opinion-

i do think its unfair to use sites with a negative bias-
actually- in all sincerity- i think anyone who spends their time tearing apart another religion or philosophy has deeply questionable motives and should not be considered as valid as those who speak for themselves-

how did it happen that suddenly hadeeth is called into question as to its validity?

i havent ever used this old chestnut even though its obvious some of them arent valid-

honestly i feel more sorry for people who are driven by a need to disprove anything-

its an ego thing= not an empatheitc reaction-
a desire to prove oneslef right which is the same in academic circles as it is philisophical or religious circles-

i always bow out of such 'discussions'-

it really is all about intentions-

im sure youre aware that beofre one even begins to approach hadeeth one must be schooled in a basic understanding of the strength or weakness of such hadeeth-

i have never heard anyone call this particular hadeeth invalid before so ill have to find 5 sources to validate it now-
(5 is my personal number)

you see i dont accept what someone tells me about islam just because their grand[parents are muslim-
i go to atleast 5 different sources until i find consensus and then it must be mutual and complete-

i found this is one of the big problems in islam- people who practice it but dont know why they do what they do-

i do know that i was in the office of the mosque and community center and saw for myself the offical response of the us government when it declared there were no valid islamic charities that muslims could be reccommended to give to-
none- nada- zip-
im familiar with islamic relief- theyre a great group- theyre one of the ones that were asked about specifically-

i spoke with their representative last year and te only work they had done in the usa was to distribute backbacks to navajo children in arizona-
nothing else in america-

because of these limitations however they are always open to proposals from individuals or groups-

again-if the motivation and intentions of any given source is to disrupt- destroy or denigrate any given ideology- i avoid them like the plague- whatever it may be-

id be just as repulsed by an anti-jewish or anti-christian site run by muslims as an anti-muslim site run by secularists-

i always let people speak for themselves and deifine themselves- in the interest of absolute fairness-

yes ross - i would do these things no matter what religion i followed but the fact is im muslim so i think that my actions reflect on my religion in a positive way-

actually i think it is a testament to the validity of islam that it attracts people who are of a service oriented nature- rather than someone who marries into it for example-
i have to go find that hadeeth-

ANNA- since i have never murdered even an animal and have only killed a few insects most unwillingly and after much consideration- a couple mosquitoes when west nile virus was rampant in chicago- 2 different time roaches to prtoect the children around- thats it- o and once there was a pigeon that was run over by a car and it ws slowly dying and i got chloroform from a chemist friend and chloroformed it until it went to sleep and died-
that is the entire and conscious record of any creature that ive killed- i have however rescued bugs floating in water and taken mice and bugs outside countless innumerable times-

i havent had illegal sexual intercourse-

and i havent left islam so im not sure how im under a death sentence-

this is a true story- when i was younger i was such an extreme pacifist that i was sitting with a mosquito on my arm sucking my blood happily when a friend came up and argued with me that i was as deserving of my blood as that mosquito and i didnt need to let it suck my blood- although at the time i reasoned i had more than i needed-

so i as opposite a murderer as one can conceive-
i have never raised a hand in anger to another creature so far-im going to be 46 in march - een to counter hands and kicks extended aggressively to me- it would take some monumental incident to incite me to any act of violence- protecting a weaker creature would be the only reason i could imagine-

one of the beauties of islam is exactly its call against racism-
any muslim who acts in a racist manner is not a muslim-

there alot of people who feel they have sufficient pull with god to judge other humans as to the validity of ones hert condition- but we really are supposed to be tolerant of others-

even ahmed can tell you that the ayats (verses) youre referring to about violence toward non-believers are those who were actively engage in treachery against the muslim community at that time-

also be carefulof some of these translations- my particular nemesis translations are dawood and noble quran as there are so many insertions in parentheses by the translators that they impose their own prejudices or ideas where they dont belong-
whenever you read a translation and there are parentheses- those are words added by the translators- not literal translations themselves-

since i dont read arabic i have to sometimes do some extended research when i read anything-

i love etymology and i love going to the seminal source of any subject -hence my obsession with questioning always the intentions-

ok ive gotten off topic- what was it anyway?
that means i better quit
peace
thanks for the nice thoughts ross

Victoria,
I don't think Muhammad's neighbor was Jewish. You're making a connection that isn't there. I've heard this story many times but have never seen an authentic original source. It could be something Islamist apologists tell to fool the uninitiated. I think it's could be fake since the sahih Bukhari hadith of Muhammad using the words of forgiveness are from an entirely different episode - but I'll reserve judgment until I see the evidence of the original source.

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with citing Jihadwatch. We should critically analyze the material produced from any site without fear or favor. It is the evidence that matters - not the people who produce that evidence. To denigrate the people producing the evidence is the logical fallacy of the "ad hominem circumstantial".

I suppose you have no problems with me using Muslim websites so you should have no problems with me using anti-Islamic websites too. It would only be fair.

Thirdly, I live in the USA and know for a fact that only select Muslim charities are banned due to terrorist links. So to say that there is a blanket ban on Islamic charities is false. Have you heard of Islamic Relief? That is active, I believe. There is also the Islamic Charity Foundation, and the Association of Islamic Charity Projects and the Islamic-American Zakat Foundation. All these are also active, I believe.

Salaam,
Ahmed

@ Victoria

Quote: "possibly anna you dont have any other sources or guidance and believe these tings to be true-"

I réally object to you seléctively picking your own idealised Islam and say when I quote e.g. from the QURAN: "destroy christians because they believe in Jesus-Christ" that 'I've got the wrong sources' - wherewith you are denying your own 'Allah'/Quran!

Not one sura but several ask for the destruction of christians in Allah's pathetic attempt to try and destroy christendom in favour of himself, and as another example that 'you your religion, I mine'is a lie. Religeous tollerance has never ever existed in Islam - not even for muslims who happen to have been born from muslim parents but can't leave Islam BY THEIR CHOICE or they will be punished in many/most Islamic countries.

Please note that my 'sources' are the Quran/hadieths by Bukhari, Muslim and others, and what the 'prophet' himself said, and these clearly preach hatred, discimination, intolerance, racisme, and war against éveryone who isn't a 'muslim', and no amount of 'interpretation' can excuse also the following wherein your 'prophet' again (!) condones the murder of people - including yóu:

"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17

You are under sentence of death by the words of your own 'prophet' Victoria.

Please give me even ONE gruesome story about Jesus-Christ wherein He calls for the murder of people as your 'prophet' did. You cán't! Jesus certainly had 'enemies' but didn't take up the sword to murder them left right and centred as Muhammed and his followers did - from the beginning of Islam followed by ten centuries (!) of Islam on a murderous rampage through wars.

I am nót 'making this up' - it's Islam who says this.
Therefore please read what I posted cárefully and don't skip over that because you rather not understand/think about what is written there.

'Charitas' is a christian concept that came forth from the teaching of Christ and resulted in Europe that monks, priests and nuns founded and ran hospitals, schools, universities, and looked after the poor, widows and orphans - thousands of them and for centuries on end.

Islam has brought absolutely nóthing news - except - as the Pope said - the Sword as instituted in Islam. In fact Islam is a step backward for humanity into the dark ages to the beginning of Judaisme wherein e.g. stoning to death for adultery, cutting off hands, slavery and many wives for one man were allowed. Muhammed reverted to these, and I assure that I can prove to you that the Quran is copy-cat Judaisme (and Christianity) with the Arabic God 'Allah' replacing YHW of the Jews - except for those sura's; and Jesus-Christ misused to further Islam.

If Muhammed was 'against slavery' why then did he have a large number of male and female slaves? If Muhammed was "like Ghandi and Jesus-Christ" why did Muhammed wage wars/murdered people, why didn't he abolished stoning to death for adultery, cutting off hands, child-marriages .....?

To convince yourself please read Sirat Rasul Alla the famous Arab author who's biography of Muhammed is accepted in the Islamic world and wherein you can read that Muhammed had the poet Ibn Ka'b bin al-Ashraf murdered 'because he didn't like what he wrote'. Muhammed said: 'who can deliver me from this man?' and blessed (!!!) the person who came forward. The poet was murdered in a most gruesome way: 'The sword was thrust so deep in his body that it came out the other end'.

I dont understand you Victoria because you are obviously an intelligent woman yet you do not see (want to see?) what lies behind violent, despicable sura's en hadiths e.g. you quoting as 'holy' (!):

[9:61] ...Say ... He is a mercy for those among you who believe." Those who hurt GOD's messenger have incurred a painful retribution."

Throughout the Quran 'Allah' threathens people: 'Believe in me or élse I shall destroy you'.
In the above sura that process is enforced by saying that Muhammed: 'must not be hurt' or élse - guess what - 'you shall be destroyed'!
That's shows TOTAL censureship which is tótally unacceptabel for the freedom of the human mind as it 'by commend of God'(who cán believe it! ) áll questioning and áll criticisme of Islam is forbidden; and for those who dare to awaits the 'jihad' ánd 'destruction in Hell'.! That is indeed dictatorship 'under God' like any dictator on earth who orders exactly the same: censureship, burning of books, silencing people, wholesale oppression - and with war to murder those who resist.

The above shows that 'Allah' knows nó 'Mercy' least allows Freedom of Religion (excépt 'on condition').
'Allah' also ónly knows love on contition: 'love me or élse you'll be doomed/damned/burned/destroyed'.
This is called sheer 'Blackmail under Threat of Violence' under our Secular laws which give you protection for that when a person would say to you: 'Victoria you múst love me, and if you dón't I'll kill you'.
You'd run a mile fast awáy from that person direction the police station to have him charged with threathening assault/murder.

If Islam 'is against slavery' why then were specific instructions given for their treatment in Islam inclúding the Quran? And why did Muhammed have numerous slaves? Why are the Islam Arabs known for their slave-trade long before christians sinned that way? Heard of the infamous 'slave pits in Zanzibar' and the húge slave-markets in Tangiers?
What about the thousands of slave-women locked up in 'harems' untill they died to still the sex-lust of Sultans, Sheikhs.....? 'They didn't know Islam'? You must be joking Victoria - it is yóu who doesn't know Islam!

With regard to that 'fatwa' not óne jihadist will take notice as they don't háve to in terms of the Quran's/Islam's demands for 'jihad' 'to defend Islam'!

Victoria,

As far as charity is concerned what you are doing is enormous, my charitable deeds pales in comparison, but I believe you'd still do it even if you were not a muslim. More than religion it is the virtues deep within ourselves that make us do such deeds. But the truth is it is very rare to find muslims giving charity towards non muslims. This was evident when the asian tsunami occured. Most of the victims were muslims but the aid rushing in was from the west, even India despite being a victim offered help to neighbouring countries. It was only weeks later and after criticisms in the media did the oil rich middle east start writing out cheques that too only for the muslim countries that were affected. Even during the balkan crisis the muslim nations only donated money to Bosnia after they were assured it would not be shared with the Croatian and Serbian people.

The story about the old jewish woman throwing garbage on the prophet never happened to Mohammed. The prophet referred to in the story was Bahaullah founder of the Bahai faith. Muslim's always love to quote this incident without providing the relevant verses.

sadly ahmed i have noticed this tendency also-

i have commented on it many times to board memebers and organizers in muslim settings-

one of my favorite hadeeths is this one (paraphrased from memory- ALLAN forgive me if i misremember)

when the Prophet(pbuh) was asked to whom our obligations to extend charity are- he said- first to your nuclear family- then to your extended family- then to your neighbor 7 houses on each side and front and back- since we know trhat his next door neighbor (remember the one who threw garbage on him every day?) was jewish- we know that he wasnt making a distinction between muslim or others- but to share oncern and responsibility first to your community and work outward-

ahmed! not jihadwatch! o no not you!

actually in maerica ahmed we are not allowed to give money to ANY charity organization that is islamic- muslims have been petitioning the united states government for the past couple years to make a list of acceptable charities AND THEY SAID NO MULSIM CHARITY IS ACCEPTABLE PERIOD!!!!!!

this causes some problems at ramadan- also it makes it quite difficult to give to charities at all-

Thank you, Mia.

While it is true that non-Muslims give more generously to charities - it should also be noted that their charities are less specific to their own religions. This is not to say that Muslim individuals are uncharitable - they are - however their charity is streamed to other Muslims due to the dictats of their religion.

Salaam,
Ahmed

I could understand your point Ahmed. If we had fund-charity mapping, then the biggest donations would probably come from non-Muslims countries (i.e Christian).

It is understandable since most Muslims live in the developing countries, or conflict areas.

It's also understandable since many developed countries got their (natural) resources from developing countries, this could become a controversial issue.

I only share with you guys a piece of our actions, and I believe Victoria does also. And I'm not working alone of course, there are many Muslims here involved, as well as non Muslims.

The point is that in the community development, people here tend to work together across our religious spectrum. The potential conflict usually come from income/access disparity, weakness from institutions, while fundamentalism from both sides is still checked under pluralistic Indonesia.

regards
Mia

Ready,
You were banned for linking msn messenger or a personal blog that may contain nasties. Try posting without linking to any site that may constitute a danger to the members of the forum.

Do not do anything to endanger anyone there and you can say anything you like.

Just post text messages like everyone else.

Ross - i only posted once as double helix ( i was looking at a biochemistry book) i cant even see the forum anymore. i tried putting in a link to newsweek about hirsi ali and her book in new members section.

Victoria,
I have lived in multicultural countries where Islam is the dominant religion. In each case, the non-Muslim charities give to everyone in need. For example the Christian charities are good at helping anyone.

However, the Muslim zakat only goes to Muslims and they will not help non-Muslims, even in disasters. I compare that to the secular and Christian charities and shake my head.

If you read my link above you'd see that many Muslims in Islamic countries hold that view. I think even in the USA Muslim charities are heavily geared towards Palestine and building madrassas and mosques in Western countries and paying Imams. The Muslim concept of charity is very different from that of the West.

But that is my view. You will undoubtedly think Muslims are the most charitable people in the world.

Salaam,
Ahmed

by the way many of these activities were under the auspices of groups of muslims and WERE NOT exceptions but the rule-

so ahmed- tell us about YOUR experiences that you cited above-

Ross- i was posting the true passage of the quran to offset the false one posted by anna and show the difference- e.g.

anna posted-

[9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

now the real verse-

[9:61] Some of them hurt the prophet by saying, "He is all ears!" Say, "It is better for you that he listens to you. He believes in GOD, and trusts the believers. He is a mercy for those among you who believe." Those who hurt GOD's messenger have incurred a painful retribution.

the verse before was to put it in context-

so what charity work do you do ross?

my last job i chicago i worked at a homeless shelter about 70 or so hours a week and 35 of those were unpaid volunteer-

i cooked for 250-300 women and children a day brakfast lunch and dinner-

i also ran the donations of clothing and household items-

i worked also distributing blankets and clothes at night to all the homeless in the community-

clients were 100% christian and almost entirely african american- (im a white woman)

i also volunteered at Sanad in the south side- a muslim organization that distributed food and helped people with paperwork for a variety of things- food stamps- liheap funding- rent and hud-

a tiny minority were muslim most were hispanic and african american- more than half were not english speakers-

i also taught english as a second language in the library to 100% christian hispanics

i also took several homeless women into my home and supported them for months until they could be self sufficient-

i even took in a homeless pregnant cat who had 7 babies- and of course responsibly found homes for them all-

i also cook and clean at my mosque every day during ramadan (monthlong) every year-

and clean the bathrooms and light fixtures and dust every week-
(sorry i also helped the muslims as i dont discriminate in who i help)

ummm- that was about 4 years worth-
i could go back until i was 14 when i started volunteering but its too much writing-

is that enough proof for you ross?
as you know im a muslim-

i notice that YOU CHOSE TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE PART ABOUT FREEING SLAVES!

so now that the nonsensical islam bashing is over we can get back on topic-

hows your prayer life ross?

i already asked anna but she was silent on the subject-

its ok ross- ive noticed in my yars of volunteer work that groups of people always tend to help those like themselves the most-

one of my pet peeves in volunteering is the volunteers themselves!

the volunteers always rifle through the donations and take the best things for themselves and family and friends-

thats why i was in charge of the donation rooms at the shelter-

the director used to beg me - actually beg me- to take some things from donation as he felt bad that they couldnt pay me more and i did full time volunteering in addition to my fulltime paid job-

i did volunteer work for an AIDS organization for years and one time i remember a company donated an entire roomful of brand new big color tvs-

i was also a livein buddy to a person with AIDS at the time for about 2 years before they went into the hospice to prepare to die-

and over the weekend i witnessed the VOLUNTEERS taking the tvs for themsleves and giving them out to family and pet favorites at the organization-

the person i was a buddy to couldnt even receive one and they needed it!

only the gay people got tvs- the people outside of that category got nothing-

all charity groups have these little favoritisms and corruptions as they are comprised of fallible humans-
by the way the organization was a christian one-

so you see ross- the demarcation between muslims or non-muslims is in your imagination-

in reality this is not the case- but were all living and learning-

thanks for the accusation which is so easily rebutted because obviously i could never bring up what could be construed as blowing my own horn without an active accusation to defend myself and muslims with-

otherwise i wouldnt have had the opportunity to give concrete examples of islam in acton to offset the many nebulous negative theories proposed

whoo hoo starting the day off on a positive!

salaams

By and large Islamic charities are only for Muslims - not for peoples of other religions. You can always find exceptions but in my experience Muslims only help the Ummah, not the kafirs.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004494.php

Salaam,
Ahmed

Ready,
What was your nick? I'll go ask the moderators why they banned you, if indeed that's what they did. In my experience FFI.org is very lightly moderated - they even tolerate Muslims going there to abuse and insult the non-Muslims so I would be very surprised if you were banned.

Emily

ROSS: "These charities were only meant for muslims or islamic causes. Islam has no charity towards non muslims."

I'm managing funds among others to re-build 7 worshipping houses including 4 Catholic and Protestant churches which were devastated by the natural disaster. I'm currently working on hospital reconstruction, and proposing the training facility and nutrition program at predominantly Christian community. Why? Because the community badly needs it. Ms. Armstrong would say, 'the immeasurable' means our empathy should include to those outside our own circle.

Regards
Mia

Victoria wrote:

Distribution System for Charities

[9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[9:61] Some of them hurt the prophet by saying, "He is all ears!" Say, "It is better for you that he listens to you. He believes in GOD, and trusts the believers. He is a mercy for those among you who believe." Those who hurt GOD's messenger have incurred a painful retribution.

These charities were only meant for muslims or islamic causes. Islam has no charity towards non muslims.

Ready wrote:
anna i tried posting at that website faithfreedom.org about that dutch parliment lady now living in new york. Blamo - i got banned. Was i not evil enough? was i the diet coke of evll with that post? Wierd

Ready,

FFI allows you to critisize/blaspheme any religion or idealogy though its prime directive is exposing islam. You will find load of Hindus vs Chrisitian or Sikhs Vs Hindus or Athiests Vs Christian threads in the forum.

I know of only two ways why someone would be banned from FFI:
1. Personal attacks against other FFI members.
2. Spamming i.e. posting the same post in different threads etc.

In both cases you will be warned more than once before being banned. Perhaps if you provide me your FFI username I'll try to find out the reason(s) you were banned.

possibly anna you dont have any other sources or guidance and believe these tings to be true-

these are some abhorrent and repulsive things posted here- for instance i only have to glance at one of the last examples you give-

Distribution System for Charities

[9:60] Charities shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of GOD, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[9:61] Some of them hurt the prophet by saying, "He is all ears!" Say, "It is better for you that he listens to you. He believes in GOD, and trusts the believers. He is a mercy for those among you who believe." Those who hurt GOD's messenger have incurred a painful retribution.

___________freeing slaves- no mention of gabriel or black men or hearts or grossness or donkeys- it bears no resemblance at all to the verse posted above-__________________________

look at this link- see what the quran and hadeeth say-
see what people like mahatma gandhi say-

you really are right- that is some despicable stuff alright-

http://members.tripod.com/etori/racism.html

can you see the obvious difference-
well i hope you read the link some-

ill give you the benfit of the doubt that you just have been fed some false information and give you the true info-

but i have a feeling your heart is hard to islam and it makes no difference-
but perhaps you have good intentions so ill assume that-

anna i tried posting at that website faithfreedom.org about that dutch parliment lady now living in new york. Blamo - i got banned. Was i not evil enough? was i the diet coke of evll with that post? Wierd

Victoria

Sure don't read what I write then you dont have to face the truth about that 'peacefull Islam':

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 "We carried Ka'b's head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah's enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf's head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah's Cause.

Ishaq:304
Tabari VII:62 “I cut off Abu Jahl’s head and brought it to the Messenger. ‘O Allah’s Prophet, this is the head of the enemy of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘Praise be to Allah.’”

"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." 9:83:17

Tabari VII:147 “Amr was sent by Muhammad to kill Abu Sufyan [the Quraysh leader and merchant]. The Prophet said, ‘Go to Abu Sufyan and kill him.'

Ishaq:535 “The women began to cry after learning about Ja’far’s death. Disturbed, Muhammad told Abd-Rahman to silence them. When they wouldn’t stop wailing, Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Go and tell them to be quiet, and if they refuse throw dust in their mouths.’”

Tabari VII:97 "The next morning, the Jews were in a state of fear on account of our attack upon the enemy of Allah. After the assassination, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill every Jew.'"

Tabari IX:34 “Khuwaysirah came and stood by the Prophet as he was giving gifts to the people and said, ‘Muhammad, I have seen what you have done today.’ ‘Well, what did you see?’ He said, ‘I don’t think you have been fair.’ Allah’s Messenger became angry. ‘Woe to you! If justice is not to be found with me, then with whom is it to be found?’” “Umar said, ‘Muhammad, allow me to kill him.’” Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.””

Ishaq:315 “It was so criminal, men could hardly imagine it. Muhammad was ennobled because of the bloody fighting.

Bukhari:V4B52N176 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘You Muslims will fight the Jews till some of them hide behind stones. The stones will betray them saying, "O Abdullah (slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him."'"

“When the Qurayza were ready to accept Sa’d’s judgment, the Apostle sent for him. Sa’d proclaimed, ‘I give the judgment that their men should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners.’ The Prophet remarked, ‘O Sa’d! You have judged them with the judgment of King Allah.’

Raping female captives with permission of the prophet:

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri,
Quote: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them.
So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 93, Number 506: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri,
Quote: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us.
The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection....."

Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 29, Number 3895: Narrated AbuHurayrah: Malik’s Muwatta:Book 29, Number 29.17.51, Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said:
Quote: "....Nothing is held against a man who takes the slave-daughter of his male slave or the slave-girl of his female-slave."Slave-girls are like fields if you wish then water it by ejaculating inside them or leave it thirsty .

Muhammad’s slaves:

Male slaves:
Yakan Abu Sharh, Aflah, 'Ubayd, Dhakwan, Tahman, Mirwan, Hunayn, Sanad, Fadala Yamamin, Anjasha al-Hadi, Mad'am, Karkara, Abu Rafi', Thawban, Ab Kabsha, Salih, Rabah, Yara Nubyan, Fadila, Waqid, Mabur, Abu Waqid, Kasam, Abu 'Ayb, Abu Muwayhiba, Zayd Ibn Haritha, and also a black slave called Mahran, who was re-named (by Muhammad) Safina (`ship') – reference: Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, "Zad al-Ma'ad" (part 1, pp. 114, 115, and 116).

Female slaves:
Salma Um Rafi', Maymuna daughter of Abu Asib, Maymuna daughter of Sa'd, Khadra, Radwa, Razina, Um Damira, Rayhana, Mary the Coptic, in addition to two other maid-slaves, one of them given to him as a present by his cousin, Zaynab, and the other one captured in a war. "

Here some things about black people/slaves:

Quote:
Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful punishment.”
“Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

Bukhari:V4B52N137“The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him. Paradise is for him who holds the reins of his horse to strive in Allah’s Cause with his hair unkempt and feet covered with dust. If he is appointed in the vanguard, he is perfectly satisfied with his post of guarding, and if he is appointed in the rearward, he accepts his post with satisfaction. If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.

Racisme and discrimination:

Qur’an 9:97 “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger.”

Tabari II:11 “Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.”

Bukhari: V9B89N256 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.’”

Ishaq:243 "I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom."

[9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Ishaq:450 “It is your folly to fight the Apostle, for Allah’s army is bound to disgrace you. We brought them to the pit. Hell was their meeting place. We collected them there, black slaves, men of no descent.

Want some more of this despicable Islam stuff Victoria?

To Karen Armstrong:

I can't seem to find a way to contact you directly.
I have written a book on Spirituality, and would like to discuss with you the possibility of your writing a Forward. It's to be published by Haworth Press.

We met at your presentation this past summer at Chautauqua Institute, but I don't expect you to remember me. But please respond to my email addrerss.

David R. Matteson, Phd

CAIR issues fatwa against terrorism huh?

Who were the founders of CAIR who were convicted of terrorism-related charges?

Why did CAIR divert funds from their 9/11 victims charity (the "NY/DC Emergency Relief Fund") to the "Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development" which was a front for HAMAS?

CAIR's parent organization, the Islamic Association for Palestine, is also a front for HAMAS.

So why should anyone believe CAIR's fatwa against terrorism?

BTW: CAIR is one of the most obnoxious anti-democratic anti-west organisations around - it must be an embarrassment to Muslims from the number of lies it has told and its failure to denounce Islamic terrorist organisations. http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=9461

Salaam,
Ahmed

ANNA- actually today i was home with my husband and we watched a show on cspan about islam in america form homeland security- and i just watched bbc news and religion and ethics weekly-

on BBC (british broadcasting) news they had a story about a worldwide study just completed about the differences in public perception on mixing politics and religious motives- and they made a comment in their summary =about this-

the main problem is the few racist and phobic extremists from all sides (jewish-christian-muslim)
that are the main perpertrators of the ongoing dissension between the faithful-

well- thats you anna-

put your energies to something positive-

i dont care what your opinion of my knowledge is-
i just get distressed seeing the same old lies and hate spewing out whnever i visit this site-

the topic has been prayer-

start with that-

i havent seen anything from you on this subject and i write because i try to get things back on track-

so get used to it anna im not going anywhere and insults just fall off me and i dont read the stuff you write when i encounter a negative i skip over it-

CONCERNED THE LIBERATED-

thought you might enjoy this-
come on anna- dont bother im not reading this stuff-

NOT IN THE NAME OF ISLAM

Thursday, July 28, 2005

CAIR backs Fatwa against Terror
English, Arabic, Urdu radio anti-terror PSAs released

(Washington, D.C., 7/28/05) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today offered its support for a fatwa, or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism issued by the Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) and endorsed by more than 120 U.S. Muslim groups, leaders and institutions. (The term "fiqh" refers to Islamic jurisprudence.) The fatwa, released during a news conference this morning at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., states in part:

"Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not martyrs ... In the light of the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state: 1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam. 2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence. 3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians. We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Qur’an, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad – peace be upon him."

SEE: http://www.cair-net.org/downloads/fatwa-english.txt

SEE: "U.S. Muslim Scholars to Forbid Terrorism", "From Muslims in America, a New Fatwa on Terrorism"

In a statement read at the news conference, CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad said: "United, we can confront the terrorists and frustrate their goal of sparking an apocalyptic war between faiths and civilizations ... The presence here today of American Muslim leaders indicates the willingness of our community to strengthen national security and to work with policy-makers to gain victory over this international menace to humanity." CAIR urged that the fatwa be read by Imams, or Islamic prayer leaders, at Friday prayers across the United States.

Awad also announced the release of radio versions of CAIR’s 30-second “Not in the Name of Islam” television public service announcement (PSA) in English, Arabic and Urdu. The PSA campaign ties into CAIR’s “Not in the Name of Islam” online petition drive designed to disassociate the faith of Islam from the violent acts of a few Muslims. To listen to the PSAs, go to: English | Arabic | Urdu | TV Video

CAIR, America's largest Muslim civil liberties group, has 31 offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding. To read CAIR's Mission, Vision Statement and Core Principles

Victoria

I am sorry I again have to disagree with you. I realise now that you do not know de Quran/Islam, and are involved in a process of idealisation by creating your own Islam selectively or as dished-up by an imam (or whoever in Islam).

It was not I but an apostate of Islam who wrote about 'agorophobia' but I tell you a 'funny' story which proves her point: on a forum a non-muslim (!!!) woman wrote that she: "had decided to wear a burka at home" because "the outside world is dangerous" and she wanted to hide inside and under a burka from 'the big bad wolf out there'. Clearly a case of agorophobia, but all women who wear a burka/niqaab are mentally disturbed - sómehow - if only because they suffer from what we call 'religeous insanity' - the same insanity some nuns used to be smitten with.

What concerns your remark about "anti-semite murder" shows again that you do not know the Quran and hadiths which are FULL, FULL of hatred for the Jews, ánd for Christians. And anti-semitisme is rampant in Islam also today because of what your 'Allah' dared to write about the Jews!

If you don't know this, or don't believe me - read the Quran (and hadieths) wherein the discriminating, intolerant, racist, anti-semite, anti-christian, anti 'heathen''Allah' spins out of control in his hatred for in fact EVERYONE!

If you can't be bothered to look these up I am quite happy to post meterslong sura's and hadiths on this forum confirming what I say.

Do you know that your 'prophet' condoned the rape by his soldiers of women prisoners of war? That Mohammed advised them not to use 'coitus interruptus' but said nothing about the rape of those women? Would you like me to give you THREE hadieths confirming this?

Do you know that your 'prophet'kept numerous slave women besides his numerous wives - (want me to list them for you?) amongst whom the christian slave woman 'Maria'(Egyptian)? Did you know your 'prophet'had a child by Maria (a son who died) out of wedlock? Want me to give you the details? I wonder whether your 'prophet' bought Maria on the slave-market or if she was part of his war-booty. Do you know? And do you think that Maria liked to be forced into bed with an old man far away from her family?

Is the following also part of my "paranoiia" according to you:

Quran 5:14-15".... And with those who say 'we are christians' we also had a covenance, but they forgot part of what they had been told. Therefore We caused animosity and hatred amongst them, till the Day of Judgement. Allah shall soon let them know what they did".

Quran Surah 5: The Table Spread

Christians will be burned in the Fire. 72
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 73

Surah 9: Repentance
Give tiding of a painful doom to Christians and Jews. 34

Quran Surah 28: The Narrative
Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom, saying: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? 62-64

[how more despicable can anyone get!]

Quran Surah 30: The Romans
Allah will tear Christians apart for ascribing partners to him. 13-14

BLASPHEMY:

Christus Crucifiction denied: 'but they crucified him not'

"Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Surah 9:30)

You'll find the following sura very interesting because TWO mistakes are made by 'Allah'. As an X-novitiate I'm sure you'll discover which these are.

Quran 5:117
"And when Allah shall say: "Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people: 'Consider me and my mother as two Gods next to Allah'. he will say: 'Holy art Thou. I would never say, to which I have no right'.

Quran 5:74 'Truly they [christians] insult God, who say: 'Allah is One of Three"

quran 033.026
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book (Jews and Christian}. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.”

Do you realise that in 033.026 above 'Allah' admits to murder,imprisonment, theft of the land of others by 'his muslims' - and is pléased about this? Yet you admire this 'Allah'?

Open your eyes Victoria to what Islam réally is about. I suggest also that you read what apostates of Islam say about Islam and their experiences on Faith.Freedom.org forum but be warned people there dó know Islam and won't and can't be fooled any longer.

keep on howling then anna-

sorry to disturb your bubble- but i come from a very loving background-

anna youre simply beyond belief

perhaps youre projecting your own experiences but you shouldnt speak for others that you have no knowledge about-

look at the crazy reality youve just constructed---

and i didnt say ALLAH bless you- ijust said may you be blessed however yuo perceive it-

you have really got to have serious issues to reject that good intention

your accusations border on real paranoia-

agoraphobic anti-semite murderer?

come on---

Victoria

You are turning things around - it is the Quran which is the source of evil and is rotten IN ITS CORE - from the beginning of Islam. You can deny your head off and say 'that's not true' - but MY evidence is the Quran and hadiths in which EVERYONE who isn't a 'muslim' is indeed "sorely tested" to the point where 'Allah's FINAL SOLUTION (heard that before from Hitler?) will "destroy" all of these.

How dáre muslims show their faces in Christianity with a Quran in the hand wherein Jesus-Christ is blasphemed, insulted, degraded, christians threathened with "destruction" is a complete mystery to me - except that I think/know that muslims have been blindfolded for the truth of Islam.

Yóu believe in 'Allah' who wants to see me murdered - yóu therefore condone that I'll be murdered. Simple at that! And every headscarf, burka or whatever Islam-gear reminds me what is written about me/christians, Jews in the Quran, and I therefore I despise muslimwomen who, in my own interest, I am forced to regard as my enemies by their very 'Holy Book'!

You make me howl in disbelief that you defected from Christ the Bringer of Peace and Love by stepping into a religion that ónly preaches peace on Islam terms and has a murderous, vengefull, cruel 'Allah' who can be compared to Hitler; and besides you have kicked the culture of your parents in the face by joining that fascistic violent cult of Islam.

No thanks for 'Allah's blessings. I despise your so-called 'God'!

I have never said that there are 'no good muslims' their excuse is that they do not understand Islam; while converts are only dished-up the good things in the Quran. Millions of muslims can't even read; and millions can't leave Islam in Islamic countries. You could inform yourself on Faith.Freedom.org forum where people cry out for help in Islamic countries with: 'please tell me how I cán leave Islam in my country' e.g. in Malaysia where they get punished for doing so! There are some very tragic stories as told by apostates of Islam.

I am sorry but I have no intention to accept muslims as acceptable co-citizens unless the violence against me is removed from the Quran.

Especially for you the following as amongst these lines you will very likely recognise yourself:

"Islam provides an insulated, structured life with a well-defined, stringent set of rules. For those that convert to Islam, it is a haven from a chaotic, fearful world.

Most female converts I knew had bad experiences prior to converting, usually with the men in their lives. For those brought up in Islam, they are conditioned from childhood that the world is fearful place with people plotting against them. Furthermore, strict obedience to a vengeful God means that even the thought of leaving has dire circumstances and actually leaving means death.

Did meet a few Muslim converts who heard the real story of Islam before they converted and who converted because they whole-heartedly agreed with it. Those people creeped me out and I usually avoided them because it made me uncomfortable to be reminded of what the real Islam was. Anti-semitism is alive and well in certain corners of the U.S. and some women enjoy being dominated by men. I knew a woman who went into a panic when her husband would go overseas because she hated to leave the house and she said it was forbidden without her husband - she'd literally starve herself and her kids unless we brought her groceries (didn't mind that we were sinfully leaving our houses to do so, though). Certain mental conditions blend well with the Muslim lifestyle: agorophobia, OCD, narcissistic personality disorder, to list a few."

keep to your muission of despising anna and ill keep to my peace- you dont have to be afraid of me- i have never raised a violent finger in anger or violence to any creature on this planet- and never will-

and i have been sorely tested-

It doesnt matter to me because i base my philosophy and life on Islam-
and in Islam- when a person accuses a believer of anything- they themselves become guilty of the thing they accuse-

so when you call me a murderer and i know im innocent- i also know that you are i danger of becoming what you accuse one of-

it doesnt bring me any happiness- it makes me sad-

the violence of your words are evidence of your heart condition-

i cannot think or conceive of any person or groups that i hate or despise-

there are actions that i hate- but that doesnt een mean i hate the actors-

i leave all this to ALLAH- that is why these petty dsicourses dont matter-
its the discourse- not you- that doesnt matter anna

you matter a great deal and i hope that ALLAH can send some decent muslim into your life to help quell the anger-

watching cspan recently i watched a program about a man who wrote a book about islam in america-

he had many interesting statistics-
a series of stats on americans attitudes and prejudices towards muslims was included-

the highest bias was in the over 34 group-
but even in that group- the numbers actually cut completely in half when THE PERSON IN QUESTION ACTUALLY KNEW PERSONALLY ONE MUSLIM!

it was those that were operating in the dark- from ignorance and lack of information and experience that were the most afraid and biased-

familiarity relieved those fears when they realized how many godd muslims there are out there-

and the stats are much more encouraging in the younger generation-

there are 7 million muslims i america now- so well all just have to get along- and that also means being patient and forgiving with each other-

may you be blessed in your life

Victoria

I'll call you an intellectually feeble-minded person for fleeing into 'it doesn't really matter'.

It DOES matter to mankind that Islam/the Quran teaches hatred, discrimination, racisme, war, violence..... but it is you who doesn't want to face the facts of Islam and hide behind that ludricous 'good manners'. WHAT do yóu call 'good manners'? Stoning people to death, child-marriages, four wives for the óne muslim man? A 'prophet' who couldn't restrain himself sexually with numbers of women in his bed and who murdered people inclúding children and a poet?

What's the matter with you that you want to be a follower of this despicable Muhammed?

Jesus in the Quran is an insult to at léast Jesus as a Great Humanist and Social Democrat who reformed archaic Jewish laws. It is Yóu who has turned your back on this Great Jesus-Christ who was against violence, against stoning people to death and that in favour of a 'prophet' who doesn't measure up to what we consider decency and humanisme, would be prosecuted for murder and raping a child should Muhammed have lived now and for whom the word 'Peace' meant 'Surrender or élse'!

I am nót "missing the point' at áll.
a) Islam was a religion that started with war/the sword - the Quran and hadiths are my witness.
b) Christendom was spread for 350 years by word of mouth ONLY;
c) NOWHERE can you find even ONE gruesome story about Jesus-Christ intending to murder people - but there are plenty of those about Muhammed.

You again show that you have understood nóthing at all of Christ's Teachings:

“Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: and a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Mt. 10:34-37).

This text comes more sharply into focus when one recognizes the idiomatic language that is employed for the sake of forcefulness.
This passage is designed to emphasize the consequences that could follow when one commits to an unqualified loyalty to the Son of God. Jesus was sending the twelve disciples on a preaching tour to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Mt. 10:6). He warned them of the dangers of rejection; they would be like “sheep in the midst of wolves” (v. 16). The apostles would be opposed by political dignitaries, and even family members would react against them with violence.

“And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death” (v. 21) (which in fact happened when thousands of Christians were murdered).

Christ also said: 'My Kingdom is not of this earth';
'To the emperor what belongs to the emperor'
ánd Jesus-Christ resisted the Temptations of the Devil in the dessert.
Muhammed did NOT but gave in to women, sex, secular power,and tiranny under the sword of 'jihad'.

'People accused Muhammed of arson'. And? He did múch worse than that!

And no I am not "frightened" by you/any muslim. I despise Islam for a number of reasons, and because it teaches you/muslims to be murderers.

Victoria wrote:
and sadly- if you read some of the poor souls who posted here- they actually DID accuse Muhammad(pbuh) of committing arson-

Who ? Can you point to those post(s) ?
There are enough things to accuse this paedophile of so I dont think anyone would be interested in creating new allegations.

Perhaps you hve been missing the point a long time-

if you really think that saying you are contemplating saying something constitutes a threat of violence- either you know better and are deliberately trying to mislead people-
or you imply never understood-

lets see- Jesus(ata) said "I come not to bring peace but a sword"
did Jesus(ata) use a sword? did the people feel threatened into following him?

Muhammad(pbuh) was trying to express the urgency of the importance of prayer to his people-

Jesus(at) also said on his account husband would turn against wife- child aginst parent etc...

was he advocating the destruction of the family unit?

Muhammad(pbuh) said that a person should crawl to prayer if they had to- as he himslef proved and did-

the point is that sometimes people need to be shaken out of their lethargy-

and sadly- if you read some of the poor souls who posted here- they actually DID accuse Muhammad(pbuh) of committing arson-

you know the difference- i know the difference- but many dont-

such misinterpertations or jumping to worng conclusions actually feeds the fires of some real paranoia here-

for instance look at how frightened poor anna is that she thinks im a 'potential murderess'

be careful who you are throwing your lot in with ahmed-
salaams

it really doesnt matter anna- you to your belief and me to mine-

i find when someone finds it necessary to resprt to namecalling it because they have nothing of substance to say-

good manners are good manners anna- so i will continue to behave my way and you behave your way-
peace and salaams

Victoria,
What kind of person was Muhammad to have even contemplated committing arson because people don't want to go to the mosque?

Can't you see even contemplating that is evil? Nobody claimed he did commit arson - the original claim never said he did this but he forced people to attend mosque under threat of violence.

Salaam,
Ahmed

PS: I don't see Karen Armstrong refuting anything at all - even when posters who know Islam have shown she is incorrect in her articles.

Victoria

Whát don't I understand about my religion? There IS nothing to understand about religions for nóne of us can give ány PROOF of what we BELIEVE IN.

You don't understand what CHRIST means allthough you claim to be have a 'novitiate' - just like Karin Armstrong as a nun you bóth tótally missed the Spiritual Essence, the Mystery of God in Catholicisme and defected to a despicable 'religion' called Islam.

Islam is nothing more than a Heresy of Christendom and Judaisme - except for those 'sura's' and nobody knows where those came from/who has written those. Want me to show you why and how Islam is a Heresy of Christendom?

How come that you support the horrific concubinate in Islam? How come you support the 'private part' of the óne muslim man for fóur muslim women? How come that you condone the rape of women as allowed by your 'prophet', child-marriages, stoning to death, whipping and war as allowed in Islam? And don't you tell me that these are 'old hat'as these still happen according to 'sharia'law - hand on the Quran.

Can't you see that your 'prophet' lied his head off? Do you réally think that GOD would give him permission to rape a child of 9 yrs old? If you believe that your 'god'permits pedophilia! - and he dóes and therefore 'Allah' cánnot be God!

Blast you woman as every time a muslim woman is stoned to death you are quilty by supporting Islam, and every time an apostate is jailed or worse murdered - yóu are quilty for supporting Islam; and every time a child is married off to an old man yóu support that.....

You know the Parabel of the Adultress woman' - CHRIST forgave her 'he who is without sin may throw the first stone'. Your despicable Muhammed would have had her stoned to death and that is why I say that After Christ Islam is a step báckward for humanity. In fact you Muhammed is seen as the anti-Christ as prophecised in the N.T. whith in the O.T. the warning 'anyone who changes/meddles with the contents of this Holy Book is condemned by God - that's what Islam's Arabs did -meddle with and steal the Holy Books of two other religions.

You must be an Islamofascist. Yóu are my potential murderess, yóu condone 'Allah's hate towards christians and Jews, yóu want to see us destroyed - because you are a 'muslim'!

And then you think yóu can claim 'intelligence'? Come off it!

If you read what I write carefully than you would know that I said that 'Constantine possibly converted to christianity for political reasons' but despite that CONSTANTINOPEL ('city of Constantine') became undeniably one of the Great Centres in Christianity.

And what about the MOON in the Islam flag as sign of the Moon God 'Allah' in the Qurasi tribe? The Heathen Kabah which is worshipped; the devil who is stoned; that Bloody Offer Feast and gruesome 'hala' meat'. Bit primitive and indeed heathen I'd say.

What is your hang-up Victoria that you WANT to believe in those things?

Of course The Trinity is the spiritual concept of God WHAT ELSE is GOD and cán GOD be bút Spirituality?

That muslims see their 'Allah' as some kind of human being with the same mean Tiranical characteristics as people, a 'God' who is jealous, hates people, wants to murder them, discriminates, is intolerant, tells muslims which people they can be befriend or not, tells muslims to wage war to defend ME EGO-ALLAH, ME Allah-ego who nééds Praise time and again to be assured of 'the love of his followers' like any dictator who ónly knows love on condition 'love me or else ME Allah-ego shall burn you in Hell'.
That is nót GOD because 'Allah' is too limited, too much like a human being; and in terms of GOD=SPIRITUALITY totally impossible for me to believe in.

I cannot respect a person who has the characteristics of 'Allah' and therefore cannot accept 'Allah' as a góód concept of GOD.

You quote Bukhari but who is he other than a not particularly intelligent and mysogenist Arab? Why do you accept what he says as the truth?

Just look at that idiot 'hadith' wherein the blubbering Aisha has to ask permission of her grandfather Muhammed. But that same Aisha would have been a murderess if she had succeeded in her attack on Ali in 'The battle of the camel'. Unfortunately for her Ali cut the leg of her camel and the poor Aisha crashed down to earth.

That same Aisha 'went off on two occasions with a man in the dessert' but 'the prophet forgave her'. That same 'sweet Aisha' so-called 'a great example for muslim women' obviously was not nice at all 'on occasions' of course. And if that same Aisha was 'so learned'- where then are her archaeologically AUTHENTICATED 'books' she wrote? 'Lost'? How come since Aisha was 'the most important woman in Islam'?

I am sure you can give me a long, long list of a thousand or so publicly known, admired and recognised Holy Women in Islam who held and hold independent public or not positions as Heads of Hospitals, Heads of large schools and as Mother Superior in Nunneries as in Christendom.

Islam has got you by the nose Victoria!

anna you dont even understand your own religion- perhaps you shouldnt comment on another relgion you know nothing about-

go ask your priest if the trinity matters to catholics or if its a "spiritual concept" of god-

ross you didnt even read the post-
go read the post and then comment

anna- I WAS A NOVITIATE AND SPENT MUCH OF MY ADULT LIFE STUDYING CATHOLICISM- DO YOU KNOW WHAT A NOVITIATE IS?

just sayng you know something isnt the same as speaking intelligently on it-

take an adult cathecism class and youll see-
constantine wasnt a christian- as a matter of fact- he "ruled" constantine "in state" a month after he was dead! (because he continued to be believed to be a worshipper of and divine representative of the invincible sun on earth by his underlings)

Victoria wrote:

HE DID NOT ACTUALLY DO IT!!! HE DID NOT ACTUALLY ORDER IT!!! HE JUST STATED THAT HE CONTEMPLATED IT-

For a prophet even contemplating burning people's houses FOR ANY REASON is evil !
I'd feel ashamed to have such thoughts (destroying other's property) and you'd probably feel they same too, so why do you lower your moral standards for this so called prophet ?

They main thing here is why did he even CONTEMPLATE on doing such a heinous act ?
A true prophet would CONTEMPLATE on how to convince people of the spiritual benefits of prayer.

@ Victoria

I am very familiar with the Trinity indeed as I am a Roman Catholic. What you/others (and particularly muslims) do not understand is that not óne religion is abóut the 'absolute truth about God' because GOD cánnot be known! Shów me God - and I'll withdraw my words - but you cán't.

Nóthing, and nóbody has or can prove the existence of God. If that was so we wouldn't have to BELIEVE in God's existence.

It therefore doesn't matter if 'The Trinity' is 'true or not' what dóes matter that The Trinity represents a SPIRITUAL concept of GOD. Jesus-CHRIST may not bé GOD, but He IS the concept GOD and IS GOD in His Meaning of Transcendental Spirituality.

'Allah' cánnot be GOD because of his non-spiritual, secular, Tiranical nature.

You actually believe the stories Islam tells you -and for which there is no evidence they are true.
'Bukhari' and Al-Aswad': who were they? Some Arabs telling stories the truth of which you cánnot verify as they were written some 100 years áfter the 'prophet'(IF he existed at all!) died.

I THINK THAT MS. ARMSTRONG WOULDNT DEBATE WITH A PERSON WHO DELIBERATELY LEAVES OUT INFORMATION TO MISREPRESENT SOMETHING- AS DONE IN THE ABOVE HADEETH- HERE IS THE HADEETH IN FULL-

Book 004, Number 1370:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: __The most burdensome prayers for the hypocrites are the night prayer and the morning prayer. If they were to know the blessings they have in store, they would have come to them, even though crawling,-- and --I thought that I should--- order the prayer to be commenced and command a person to lead people in prayer, and I should then go along with some persons having a fagot of fuel with them to the people who have not attended the prayer (in congregation) and would burn their houses with fire.

First the Prophet(pbuh) states that if people knew how imporatant the prayers were (AS HE DID HIMSELF BY HIS OWN ACTIONS) they would crawl to get there-

and then he says I THOUGHT THAT I SHOULD!!!!!

HE DID NOT ACTUALLY DO IT!!! HE DID NOT ACTUALLY ORDER IT!!! HE JUST STATED THAT HE CONTEMPLATED IT-

HERE WE HAVE THE ACTUAL ACTIONS OF THE PROPHET(PBUH) WHERE HE HIMSELF COULDNT WALK BUT STILL DRAGGED HIMSELF TO PRAYER-

Book 004, Number 1371:

Narrated Al-Aswad:

"We were with 'Aisha discussing the regularity of offering the prayer and dignifying it. She said, 'When Allah's Apostle fell sick with the fatal illness and when the time of prayer became due and Adhan was pronounced, he said, 'Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.' He was told that Abu Bakr was a soft-hearted man and would not be able to lead the prayer in his place. The Prophet gave the same order again but he was given the same reply. He gave the order for the third time and said, 'You (women) are the companions of Joseph. Tell Abu Bakr to lead the prayer.' So Abu Bakr came out to lead the prayer. In the meantime the condition of the Prophet improved a bit and he came out with the help of two men one on each side. As if I was observing his legs dragging on the ground owing to the disease. Abu Bakr wanted to retreat but the Prophet beckoned him to remain at his place and the Prophet was brought till he sat beside Abu Bakr." Al-A'mash was asked, "Was the Prophet praying and Abu Bakr following him, and were the people following Abu Bakr in that prayer?" Al-A'mash replied in the affirmative with a nod of his head. Abu Muawiya said, "The Prophet was sitting on the left side of Abu Bakr who was praying while standing."

OF COURSE MS. ARMSTRONG WONT DEBATE WITH SOMEONE WHO MAKES SUCH HORRIBLE UGLY STATEMENTS-

THAT WOULD BE VALIDATING THE HATEFULNESS OF THIS WRITER ALI SINA- WHO DOESNT DESERVE A RESPONSE TO THE VICIOUS SLANDER OR FOR HIS UGLY INTENTIONS TO EVEN BE ACKNOWLEDGED.

SORRY I JUST COULDNT LET THIS UGLINESS STAND WITHOUT BEING CHALLENGED BY THE TRUTH-

the funny thing is it was the hateful half truths posted that led me to a simple search to get the whole truth---

I could understand Ali Sina's comment on prayers.

These days many Muslims regard prayers as merely 'obligatory', we call it 'fardh fiqh'. And many of us do it as if it were only dry rituals.

Prayers are 'obligatory' really mean that it is a discipline that we teach the kids to start on doing something that 'it's good for you'. You know, like your mom told you to eat the vegies. Prayers are good for the soul, mom would say.

In Indonesia people or the government do not impose penalty of not praying, but I think most people pray. People will gently remind each other. But unfortunately, we haven't gone beyond that kind of discipline, obligatory and ritual phase.

Prayers will be effective to our daily realities if we practice it as the ground-training on our egotism. I'm sure most psychologists would agree on this kind of 'continuous self-theraphy'.

What Ms. Armstrong has not discussed is that the social aspect of Islamic prayers, and how it relates to the ego-control. This will be an interesting subject to discuss.

Salam
Mia

=================================================
Ali Sina:
Ms. Armstrong writes: “But then I came to understand that prayer is really for us.”

Dear Ms. Armstrong: Even if the prayers are for us; that is not the case in Islam. In Islam prayers are obligatory. Why? If it is for us, then it should be voluntary. Both Bukhari and Muslim report a hadith of Muhammad who has said: “I thought that I should order the prayer to be commenced and command a person to lead people in prayer, and I should then go along with some persons having a fagot of fuel with them to the people who have not attended the prayer (in congregation) and would burn their houses with fire.” (Muslim Book 004, Number 1370; and Bukhari Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626).

If in Islam the prayers were for the benefit of the believers then why force them to pray with this much violence? It is clear that Allah is very needy and desperate for praise. How can the maker of the universe be so petty? It is because Allah is not God but Muhammad’s other alias. This man whom you so mistakenly have come to believe was a prophet was a narcissist, a cult leader no different from Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson or Shoko Asahara. Islam was his way to get his narcissistic supply and make people love him, fear him and respect him. To be God is the narcissist’s wet dream. Muhammad realized that dream. As a narcissist he could not tolerate rejection and neglect. When he demanded his foolhardy followers to pray to Allah that prayer was for him. That is why he was so offended and acted so violently towards those who did not believe in him, did not pray to him and rejected his claim. A narcissist cannot tolerate rejection and neglect.

By defending Islam and portraying it as a religion, you have done a lot of harm. I have had many emails from westerners leaving Islam and blaming you for misleading them into Islam in the first place. It is time that you come to your senses and face the truth. I invite you to debate with me publicly in writing. I have shown that Islam is a cult and Muhammad was a psychopath narcissist. If you can prove me wrong or prove that Muhammad had anything to do with God, I will remove my site and publicly acknowledge that I was wrong.

Ali Sina

=================================================

NJA,

Ms. Armstrong is no fool, else she would have accepted islam by now. Even though her knowledge of islam is limited she knows enough to see the folly of islam but loves the publicity and praise she receivers from its blind followers.
Also she will never accept a debate challenge from Ali Sina or other anti islamic scholars because she knows islam cannot be defended intellectually .

Ms Armstrong
Your soul is lost, you are spiritualy blinded by Satan.
Pray to God to release you from your bondage.
May God Bless you.

anna it would tak a book to correct the misinformation youve posted here- get a map to see how you could travel to mecca was sarcasm- they are very close-

i dont have the time or inclination-

besides that the question was about the trinity which obviously youre not familiar with or youd have posted something about it- anyway do some research on where it came from and why- constantine was NOT a christian- some say he made a deathbed conversion-
his whole life he wasnt a christian and never said he was- it is simple history and very easy to research- ask the catholics since its their history- youd think theyd be the first to say he was a christian- but they dont- read 'history of the jews' the word is a modern invention-from the Iudeans translated to Judeans shortened to jew in the 1800s-

you cant just make things up!

Ms. Armstrong,

Will you atleast reply to Ali Sina's post if you do not wish to debate him ?

Jihadist- ive been away- ill come back and share more on the trinity and the doctrines of atonement possibly when i catch you on another post-

anna= google constanine

If there is a God or supreme being, he/she/it should be one sadistic, cruel, self centered entity. He/she/it seem to play russian roulette with his creation, first siding with one group and then other and another ad infinitum. How could an individual or group be banished to eternal damnation when much of an individual's actions are predicated on their culture, upbringing, chance and opportunities for doing good and evil?
A lot has been said about the Profit of the Islamic faith and his wives, exploits etc., But the fact remains that his actions echos across the centuries and continue to affect us to this day. If the man was a pedophile plunderer it only serves to ameliorate the actions of his followers who were merely emulating his actions when they were convinced were worthy of emulation. Contrasting this with the actions of the followers Apostle of Peace, who preached non violence, truth, that the kingdom of God is within, and turn the other cheek. Some made a mockery of this religion: waging wars, conducting inquisitions, etc.,

What kind of God would visit fire and brimstone on his own creation anyway? Why this obsessions with being venerated by these Godheads?

How can we try to reason away the Faith of an ardent follower? We are attempting something that is beyond reason and logic in the mind of the faithful. We insult them directly and invite insult on ourselves. Then we have the kind like Ms.Armstrong who implicitly insults a major Faith by passing herself off as an authority while glossing over the darker aspects of the Faith. This is disengenous (sp?).

In the end the best we can hope for is to recognize ground reality and attempt to preserve what we believe works for our great lands. This for the West means freedom, liberty and our way of life. The West should be unabashed about doing what needs to, to prevent erosion of its great culture. In a similar vein, the Ummah should be proud of its great heritage and not have to be defensive about its past. After all, whatever be the means, they did conquer some great civilizations and managed to spread their Faith far and wide. Where is the need for personal insults and proving which faith is better? All are lamps which seem to carry a spot of darkness in their core.

The Almighty, whoever He/She/IT is does not seem to caring about what we do here. Perhaps He/She/IT/THEY are having a mighty laugh at our expense.

By the way I have not only met some great people across the religious spectrum, I have also witnessed people who were spiritually transformed through religions that are so far apart in their philosophies. Sufi saints who also believe in the Profit, atheist Buddhists, Christians, Hindu Bhakthi sects, Yogic practitioners etc., They all seem to become 'closer' to the divine, and experience altered states of consciousness and experience pure love towards their fellow human beings.

Well, think I have begun to meander away from topic and started rambling. I am touched by the civility amoung the various posters in this thread! Thanks guys.

test

Rubina,

Tell us your story, infact We'd appreciate if you'd join FFI (if your are'nt a member already) and post it there too.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum

FFI was created by ex muslims to expose this evil cult.

Anna wrote:
Just think: at the time Islam came about Christianity and Judaisme existed as two Monotheistic Religions, far away in India Hinduisme was another Major Religion but with One God represented by hundred of smaller Gods. Yét 'Allah' attacked only the first two religions - but nót 'heathen Hinduisme' which is never mentioned in the Quran. Why? Because 'Allah' had never heard of Hinduisme/wasn't around Muhammed at that time/wasn't a threat to the dominance of Islam at that time. Means 'Allah the All-knowing' didn't know everything. How come? Because 'Allah' is man-made fiction but unfortunately represents a horror-story/concept of God for mankind.

Good Work !!!

Thankyou Ross for your information, a lot of the excuses muslims come up with a a lot of tu quoque fallacies by the looks of things. And more excuses thereafter without actually admitting that he was indeed a paedophile!.

Mohammed was a so called 'prophet' so you would think he would be a model for all mankind for the all time great religion.

I am an apostate of Islam and have seen the verse that states that "there is no compulsion in religion" but at the same time the apostates' blood must be spilled.

Mind boggling.

Jihadist:

"The Bible is a hoax". The Old Testament is the History of the Jews - as much as the Quran is the History of those Arabs who needed, like the Jews, to create their own God to back them up in their wars/conquests to establish Islam.

If you say that the Bible is a hoax then why was so much of this book (and the N.T.) plagerised by Islam in the Quran? The Quran is in fact a big hoax just becáuse Islam ruthlessly attacked and changed the Holy Scriptures of others. How cán any intelligent ..... (whoever) in Islam think that he can change the history of the Jews; say that 'we are a Abrahamic religion'; and then have YHW (according to Islam the same as 'Allah') curse and murder the Jews WHOLESALE, curse and threathen Christians in the same way?

All of the Quran and hadit's are a Declaration of War for Jews/Judaisme and christians/Christendom. It doesn't even matter if the O.T. and N.T. are a 'hoax' my point is that Christianity (N.T. in essence) and Judaisme were two Major existing Monotheistic religions at the time when Islam decided to ruthlessly ransack their Holy Scriptures without consulting with the Spiritual Leaders in Christendom and Judaisme. Thát's the crime Islam committed!

It is beyond the pále of any morality to do that; and what Islam did was also ludricous because of her saying 'we have improved óther religions' - while in fact Islam needed Judaisme and Christianity to 'fullfill' hersélf. Anyway, how can anyone 'improve' a religion? Tell me!

I know that "not all christians believe in The Trinity' but at the time of Islam most did, and it not the point either as millions still do and 'Allah/Islam' showed no respect whatsoever for the Essence of the Spirituality in another religion - and that to serve her own ends.

"having read and studied the bible for many many yars i can tell you there is no "overlap" in the bible and qur'an"

"Anna get a map- how on earth could a long dead jew [Abraham] travel to Mecca?" Exactly! I am not saying that but muslims do.

"Abraham was not a "jew" as there were no such people then- only tribes- he came form Ur which is present day Iraq"

Abraham is thé Founding Father of the Jews; and you are contradicting yourself when you say 'Abraham wasn't a Jews but Arabs and Jews are all semitic people resulting in 'Abraham was (at least) a Semite.
"ALLAH bears no resemblance to the mis-stated name of the judaic god-(JHW?)"

The Judaic God is also called ELOHIM I believe, but 'Allah' certaintly resembles the cruel, vengefull God in the Old Testament wherein slavery, bigamy etc. were also allowed as in Islam

"also ishmael was clearly not a "jew" neither was isaac- as their dad was from UR"

Who told you so? You are certainly twisting the history of the Jews as they have written it for some thousand of years. 'Moses wasn't a Jew either' I suppose, nor were Jesus, Mary? Come off it! But again it doesn't matter my point is that Islam ruthlessly attacked to major religions to her own ends and of which 'Allah' confesses:

quran 033.026
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book (Jews and christians). He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.”

"and she seems completely oblivious to the existence of the coptics i egypt or the syrian christians and orthodox"

No I am not what gives you that impression? All of the Quran (except the surahs and hadieths) show that Islam is indeed a Heresy of Christendom and Judaisme. Moreover archaeologists/scientist doubt whether Muhammed ever existed as their is no archaeological evidence for that at all, and all that we know has been told to us by Arabs with a vested interest to present Islam as they saw fit including the idealised story (IF he existed) of the Life of Muhammed which can't be true when we read certain hadiths and what he himself has (supposed) to have said e.g. allowing women to be raped.

Amongst others Hillare Belloc calls Islam a Heresy in 'The Great Heresies'; 'Islam is not a new religion but a parody of christendom'. http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

Victoria wrote:"having read and studied the bible for many many yars i can tell you there is no "overlap" in the bible and qur'an-"

Unbelievable Quran

Note what the Quran says about contradictions: "Will they not ponder on the Koran? If it had not come from Allah, they could have surely found in it many contradictions."

Heavens/Earth came together at creation. (Surah 41:11)

Heavens/Earth were ripped apart at creation. (Surah 21:30)
____________________

Creation took six days. (Surah 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59)

Creation took eight days. (Surah 41:9-12)
____________________

Earth created first. (Surah 2:29)

Heavens created first. (Surah 70:27-30)
____________________

All angels obey Allah. (Surah 16:49-50)

Not all angels obey Allah. (Surah 2:34)
____________________

Pharaoh drowned. (Surah 17:103, 28:40, 43:55)

Pharaoh did not drown. (Surah 10:92)
____________________

All of Noah's sons were aboard the ark. (Surah 21:76-77)

Not all of Noah's sons were aboard the ark. (Surah 11)
One angel spoke to Mary. (Surah 19:17-21)

Several angels spoke to Mary. (Surah 3:42-45)
____________________

Paradise has one garden. (Surah 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41)

Paradise has many gardens. (Surah 18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32)
____________________

Allah can have a son. (Surah 39:4)

Allah can't have a son. (Surah 6:101)
____________________

Face Mecca while praying. (Surah 2:115, 144)

Face Jerusalem while praying. (Surah 2:115, 144)
____________________

The Bible vs. the Koran
____________________

Bible: Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat. (Genesis 8:4)

Koran: Noah's ark landed on Mt. Judi. (Surah 11:44)
____________________

Bible: Abraham's father was Terah. (Genesis 11:31)

Koran: Abraham's father was Azar. (Surah 6:74)
____________________

Bible: Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac. (Genesis 22:1-12)

Koran: Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. (Surah 37:100-112)
____________________

Bible: Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses. (Exodus 2:1-10)

Koran: Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses. (Surah 28:8-9)
____________________

Bible: Jesus was crucified. (Mark 15:25-32)

Koran: Jesus was not crucified. (Surah 4:157-158)
____________________

Bible: Abraham lived in the Valley of Hebron. (Genesis 13:18, 23:2, 35:27)

Koran: Abraham lived in Mecca. (Surah 14:37)
____________________
The Unbelievable Koran
____________________
Heaven is a place of sex and wine. (Surah 2:25, 4:57, 11:23, 47:15)
____________________
Mary (Jesus' mother) was Moses sister. (Surah 19:..)
____________________
Jesus taught people even in his "old age". (Surah 5:110)
____________________
Moses lived at the same time as Noah.
____________________

According to Surah 18:86, The sun literally sets
into a muddy spring here on Earth and
Surah 18:90 mentions a speciffic place
on Earth where the sun rises.
____________________

Jihadist:
... "You are not going to tell me about the Council and the Trinity?"

"The dogma of Trinity is the main difference between the Islamic notion of God and the Christian one."

No it isn't 'Allah'is a cruel, vengeful, cold, unloving Ego-Centric 'God' - as was his 'prophet'. Jesus-Christ is Love, Forgiveness, Redeemer of Sins, at least a Great Humanist, and a Refórmer of Jewsih Laws. Muhammed went báck to the old Jewish Laws and that means that Islam is a step back for humanity.

You please PROVE to me 'that God has no Son".

"Everyone is born sinless and is judged by what he does in his life."

Babies/children are nót 'without sin' because they cán sin as settled in their genes/karakter. Indeed we have to téach children not to sin which they are apt to do given a chance to steal a biscuit, be cruel to an animal or whatever. And muslim babies are born with the death-sentence hanging over their heads should they 'want to leave Islam/the muslims' therefore are 'born with the sin of possibly wanting to leave Islam'.

@ Victoria.

Constantine became a Christian - no doubt about that, Constantinopel was a major Christian city (now Istanbul) - whether out of political reasons or not. The result was that his people followed his lead and became Christians. There's a lot of twisting history on this forum! Must be Karin Armstrong's influence! And again it doesn't matter how Christianity came about the TRUTH is the God-Concept CHRIST SUPREME which is infinitely more Spiritually deep than the Quran's 'Allah' who is a TIRANT as any dictator on earth and knows no mercy, no love! ALL religion are man-made constructions, vehicles in which people try to establish a dialogue with God or Gods - and no more, nor less than that, but I would for everything in the world not want to Submit to a Tiranical 'God' as for my God means Love and Forgiveness.

Just think: at the time Islam came about Christianity and Judaisme existed as two Monotheistic Religions, far away in India Hinduisme was another Major Religion but with One God represented by hundred of smaller Gods. Yét 'Allah' attacked only the first two religions - but nót 'heathen Hinduisme' which is never mentioned in the Quran. Why? Because 'Allah' had never heard of Hinduisme/wasn't around Muhammed at that time/wasn't a threat to the dominance of Islam at that time. Means 'Allah the All-knowing' didn't know everything. How come? Because 'Allah' is man-made fiction but unfortunately represents a horror-story/concept of God for mankind.

Rubina,

The problem is this cult like every other cult brainwashes its followers they go to any lenghts to justify Mo's paedophilia, here is list of the excuses we have collected over the past 3 years:

1. Marrying 6 year olds was ok in those days.
2. Girls matured sooner in those days.
3. Girls matured sooner in dry climates.
4. To teach her true islam.
5. She was a reject (had marriage proposals turned down) so he done her a favour.
6. To establish a relationship with Abu Bakr.
7. She was Allah's gift to him via the angelic dream.
8. Married her when she was 6 but consummated when she was 14.
9. I don't see what the problem is.
10. You are a "#"£$"£!$##' I'll chop your head off.
11. Allah gave him this priviledge, you are just envious.
12. Why do you only bash Mo even catholic priests perform such acts.
13. Sleeping with 9 year old by marrying her is better than raping her!
14. Aisha was in dishonour, she had been 'playful' in her youth and Muhammad was kind to her to marry her, to sve her from lifetime of shame.
15. If Mo was a paedophile then why was Aisha the only minor among his wives. (This excuse was given by JAGOTI on this panel)

Dear jihadist,

Why do you consider a paedophile as your prophet? Can you not see his immoral acts as wrong at all? Also, can you tell me the punishment for Apostasy in Islam?

thanks

--All because of a demented paedophile who called himself a prophet--

4-yr-old girl wed to 45-yr man in Pak
Press Trust Of India
Islamabad: A four-year-old girl was married to a 45-year-old man in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) to settle a dispute under a tribal custom.

Thirteen people, including a panchayat member, were arrested in Dera Islami Khan town in this connection and the court on Thursday sent them to judicial custody, the Dawn reported on Friday.

Those arrested included Mahboob, the man to whom the girl was married, the girl's father Alamsher, and the panchayat leader Saifur Rehman.
An FIR was registered against them on Wednesday.

According to the paper, the girl's uncle Farroq had eloped with a woman after which a panchayat slapped a fine of Rs 1.5 lakh on him. He was also asked to stay away from the area for five years.

However, the couple was later married. The panchayat met again and this time they decided to give the hand of four-year-old niece of Farooq to Mahboob, paternal uncle of his wife, to settle the issue.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/4yrold-girl-wed-to-45yr-man-in-pak/top/33202-2.html
_________________

In Islam pedophilia is encouraged by the parents of the unfortunate child. What a sick, debauched, and demented world of the followers of the pedophile "prophet". Children are no more than a commodity for these disgusting people.
Sick sick sick

Jihadist:

What makes you think that the quran is correct in its interpretation of earlier religious text ? Also why do you believe Quran is the word of Allah ?
What makes you so sure Allah is not Satan who deceived Mohammed ? After all Mo did display symptoms of demonic possession when he received the revelations, like foaming in the mouth, epileptic fits etc also his deeds after receiving the verses just prove that he was deceived by satan.
Why do you limit God to '1' why can't an omnipotent and omnipresent God manifest himself like for exapmple the milliion Gods of Hinduism ?

rats i hope i didnt make a double post- heres a quick look at the bouncing back and forth on the council(s) of nicaea

o by the way jihadist- every catholic must recite the entire nicaean creed every single mass-

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE CHURCH AFTER NICAEA

325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states:
"Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."

At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.

328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.

328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Illyria.

335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.

337 AD - A new emperor, Contantius, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.

339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled.

341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.

343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.

346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.

351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.

353 AD - A council is held at Aries during Autumn that is directed against Athanasius.

355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.

356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.

357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son.

359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.

361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.

380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.

381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters.

If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. It was not the established teaching, and when some faction of the church tried to make it official, the result was major conflict.

ps-- arius died on the way to the council- (some think killed) otherwise it is bleieved it would have swung back to him if he had made it to the council- the first major church scandal-(before it was a church)

instead of doing a dry paste on the council of nicea- ill just skip around with a little history and scripture from the old and new testament-
THIS IS ALL FROM MEMORY SO IF THERES A MISTAKE I APOLOGIZE-
you may be surprised to know that alot of the most damning information comes directly from the catholic church- for instance- Constantine was never a christian- he wanted to consolidate the disparate chrisitan sects into an easily controlled political base- hence the council of nicea which codified christianity into catholicism (which means universal) into a cohesive entity by putting the various books of the bible into one whole-

the protestants came along later and threw out about 11 books i believe-

The new testament itself is really divided into the gospels and pauline- anything after acts is written almost entirely by Paul (formerly saul of tarsus) who never met Jesus(ata) and had a "vision" of Jesus(ata)- here are 4 different verses- ACTS 9:3-8 22:6-10 26:13-18
GALATIANS 1:15-17 and the accounts are all in contradiction directly to each other-

the doctrine of atonement is based on so many different pagan gods at the time- adonis- fo syria- dionysus from thrace- attis from phyrgia- all sons of god who died violent deaths and then rose again to save their people-
all the first 7 churches or congregations were in what is now turkey- (most christians dont even know this) for instant ephesus had the goddess cult astarte or diana and Mary(ata) was simply inserted into local lore and remains to this day one of the strongest marian centers of devotion in the world (its where pope bendict went in turkey)
Paul was a politician foremost- and took existing pagan communities and imposed christian faces on the existing gods and goddesses and legends-

im going off the top of my head right now as its late- but

i wont go into paul now i could talk all day but its distracting- but he really invented christianity in the form we know it now-

the Trnity was first put forth at the council of nicea- the father son and holy spirit are 3 in 1
of course it doesnt make sense- it never will
it is also not anywhere in the bible but has to be surmised and reasoned out through a long circuitous process that most people dont understand and rarely finish the process to explain- even your best theologians cant point you to a specific or clear scripture-

the trinity also was predated by many religions- just a few- hinduism- brahma-vishnu-shiva- egypts/osirus-isis-horus - babylonian nimrod-simmeraramus- tammuz(whose symbol is the cross) israel gnostic paganism/ kether-hokhmeh-binah

for some real fun google mithras-ahura mazda-
mithras was the persian sun god who was father by ahura mazda and whose mother was a virgin- born on december 25th no less-

well this is all some really quick stuff from the top of my head at 2:30 am so - its a fascinating topic- as far as the development of the trinity into doctrine- ill post a quick synopsis of the meetings and power shifts that occurred to give you an idea how tenuously the trinity was accepted then rejected then accepted again- depending on who held sway over the emperor at the time-
anathasius or arius- as far as the gspels of thomas or barnabus or the essenes etc---its too off topic for this subject-

really it used to be one of my favorite discussions with good theologians and historians-

at least it was always above board-
salaams jihadist
certainly alot more where that came from

instead of doing a dry paste on the council of nicea- ill just skip around with a little history and scripture from the old and new testament-
THIS IS ALL FROM MEMORY SO IF THERES A MISTAKE I APOLOGIZE-
you may be surprised to know that alot of the most damning information comes directly from the catholic church- for instance- Constantine was never a christian- he wanted to consolidate the disparate chrisitan sects into an easily controlled political base- hence the council of nicea which codified christianity into catholicism (which means universal) into a cohesive entity by putting the various books of the bible into one whole-

the protestants came along later and threw out about 11 books i believe-

The new testament itself is really divided into the gospels and pauline- anything after acts is written almost entirely by Paul (formerly saul of tarsus) who never met Jesus(ata) and had a "vision" of Jesus(ata)- here are 4 different verses- ACTS 9:3-8 22:6-10 26:13-18
GALATIANS 1:15-17 and the accounts are all in contradiction directly to each other-

the doctrine of atonement is based on so many different pagan gods at the time- adonis- fo syria- dionysus from thrace- attis from phyrgia- all sons of god who died violent deaths and then rose again to save their people-
all the first 7 churches or congregations were in what is now turkey- (most christians dont even know this) for instant ephesus had the goddess cult astarte or diana and Mary(ata) was simply inserted into local lore and remains to this day one of the strongest marian centers of devotion in the world (its where pope bendict went in turkey)
Paul was a politician foremost- and took existing pagan communities and imposed christian faces on the existing gods and goddesses and legends-

im going off the top of my head right now as its late- but

i wont go into paul now i could talk all day but its distracting- but he really invented christianity in the form we know it now-

the Trnity was first put forth at the council of nicea- the father son and holy spirit are 3 in 1
of course it doesnt make sense- it never will
it is also not anywhere in the bible but has to be surmised and reasoned out through a long circuitous process that most people dont understand and rarely finish the process to explain- even your best theologians cant point you to a specific or clear scripture-

the trinity also was predated by many religions- just a few- hinduism- brahma-vishnu-shiva- egypts/osirus-isis-horus - babylonian nimrod-simmeraramus- tammuz(whose symbol is the cross) israel gnostic paganism/ kether-hokhmeh-binah

for some real fun google mithras-ahura mazda-
mithras was the persian sun god who was father by ahura mazda and whose mother was a virgin- born on december 25th no less-

well this is all some really quick stuff from the top of my head at 2:30 am so - its a fascinating topic- as far as the development of the trinity into doctrine- ill post a quick synopsis of the meetings and power shifts that occurred to give you an idea how tenuously the trinity was accepted then rejected then accepted again- depending on who held sway over the emperor at the time-
anathasius or arius- as far as the gspels of thomas or barnabus or the essenes etc---its too off topic for this subject-

really it used to be one of my favorite discussions with good theologians and historians-

at least it was always above board-
salaams jihadist
certainly alot more where that came from

... You are not going to tell me about the Council and the Trinity?

The dogma of Trinity is the main difference between the Islamic notion of God and the Christian one. There is no Son of God and Jesus did not die for our sins. Everyone is born sinless and is judged by what he does in his life. In Islam, there is no Original Sin.

Also, it was at the Council of Nicea that the Jesus was "divinated" or made divine. Is that right?

Jihadist - You might be interested in the work of the Jesus Seminar.
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Jesus_Seminar/jesus_seminar.html

These are scholars of Christianity who have tried to differentiate between later additions to the New Testament and what was originally written. Also many scholars think that the Gospel of Thomas, part of the Nag Hammadi library, is more authentic than many of the stories in the other gospels. Actually the Gospel of Thomas does not contain any of the miracle stories found in the other gospels, the Virgin birth and the Resurrection etc etc, it just contains the words of Jesus.

Victoria wrote:"having read and studied the bible for many many yars i can tell you there is no "overlap" in the bible and qur'an-"

There are reputable scholars of the Koran that would differ from you. In fact there is a lot of scholarly evidence that the Koran was partly composed from fragments of stories that were in circulation during the time of Muhammed, and that includes the stories in the Old and New Testament:

"Despite the unusual structure, however, what generally surprises newcomers to the Koran is the degree to which it draws on the same beliefs and stories that appear in the Bible. God (Allah in Arabic) rules supreme: he is the all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-merciful Being who has created the world and its creatures; he sends messages and laws through prophets to help guide human existence; and, at a time in the future known only to him, he will bring about the end of the world and the Day of Judgment. Adam, the first man, is expelled from Paradise for eating from the forbidden tree. Noah builds an ark to save a select few from a flood brought on by the wrath of God. Abraham prepares himself to sacrifice his son at God's bidding. Moses leads the Israelites out of Egypt and receives a revelation on Mount Sinai. Jesus -- born of the Virgin Mary and referred to as the Messiah -- works miracles, has disciples, and rises to heaven."

This article is based on the work of reputable scholars in reputable universities. This article has nothing whatsoever to do with Daniel Pipes in spite of Victoria's claims to the contrary. It was originally published in the Atlantic magazine:
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html

sk anything you like jihadist- as statd above i was a novitiate of the catholic church- (it is a 7 year grace period one can take before taking the vows to be a nun) optional-

actually ANna doesnt realize that there is a difference i christendon and christianity-

not all christians believe i the trinity- and all christians dont believe in the divinity of Jesus(ata) either-

actually it is gentetically proven today that arabs and jewish people share bloodlines- also it snot jewish blood but there are both a semitic people-
abraham was not a "jew" as there were no such people then- only tribes- he came form Ur which is present day Iraq-

having read and studied the bible for many many yars i can tell you there is no "overlap" in the bible and qur'an-

Anna get a map- how on earth could a long dead jew travel to mecca?

ALLAH bears no resemblance to the mis-stated name of the judaic god-(JHW?)

it is actually YOD HE VAU HE- the tetragammatron- the 4 letters or consonants- vowels were later inserted by christians - hence- jehovah and yahweh

also ishmael was clearly not a "jew" neither was isaac- as their dad was from UR-
where she gets the assumption that abraham is laying the stone for a hethen temple is anyones guess-

and she seems completely oblivious to the existence of the coptics i egypt or the syrian christians and orthodox-

also even the use of the word Heresy is strange indeed-

well anna has had talks with me before has her own views on chrsitanity- and islam-

actually im getting kind of bored here so
salaams

Hello Anna,

In other On Faith threads, BGone is always saying the Bible is a hoax and actively sough to promote the link to Hoaxbuster. I have yet to read it. Is it true what he is saying?

I am also rather murky about the Council of Nicea (right spelling?) and quite confused on the dogma of Trinity.

Jihadist

Quote: Muslims are all the Antichrists, no? Oh wait. Jesus is one of the most respected Prophets in Islam."

It is véry important for you/all muslims to understand the following:

'Jesus' in the Quran is the deliberately Blasphemed, insulted and degraded to 'a prophet', Spiritually Dead God/Messias Jesus-CHRIST of Christen-dom whose independent Teachings are not taught in mosques:

'Jesus' in the Quran forms part of a deliberate attempt by Islam to destroy both Christendom and Judaisme in favour of the Arabic 'Allah' and which was done by attacking the CENTRAL spirituality of Christendom:

In the Quran:
1) Jesus-CHRIST is Blasphemed;
2) Christ's Crucifiction denied;
3) The Trinity denied and made to look ridiculous (allthough 'Allah' didn't understand what The Trinity means and made two mistakes in the surah's: a) said that 'Mary is a goddess b) and that she is 'part of the Trinity')
4) The Holy Mary is misused to 'prove' that 'God has no son';
5) The angel Gabriel is the Beginning of Christianity, but was taken over and now announces the Beginning of Islam in the form of 'Djibriel' a nasty war-mongering angel (who admits that 'he lied to Mary'!)
6) In the Quran Christians are threathened with violence and "destruction" by 'Allah' - also becáuse they believe in Christ.
7) 'Jesus' is misused to facilitate conversion of Christians 'come by the Islam because we respect your Jesus' but that is NOT Jesus-Christ of Christendom.
8) Jesus in the Quran is an insult to Jesus-Christ because He was truly a Man of Peace which 'Allah' and his 'prophet'are nót.
9) 'Allah' even stoops to taunt and make christians look ridiculous "on their Day of Doom".

In fact, according to the Quran, 'christians' do not exist at áll because without Jesus-CHRIST as their Messias/God no 'christians' nor 'Christ-dom'. It is therefore laughable when muslims say that they: 'respect Jesus and people of the Book' when they in fact Blaspheme, insult, degrade Jesus-Christ, stole the New Testament (and the O.T.) the very 'Books' which Islam ransacked to her own ends.

Islam is guilty of an enormous crime by plagerising the Holy Books of two Existing Monotheistic Religions without ány consultation with the Spiritual Leaders in Christianity and Judaisme as located for centuries in Jeruzalem, Constantinopel and Rome in a tótal, ruthless show of disrespect for other religions.
Plagerisme is never admired (and even punishable by law) but is worse when the author twists the truth and lies about the original content - and then issues the book as 'my own'- as Islam did.

That people do not believe in Jesus-CHRIST is up to them; but that 'Allah' (supposedly GOD!) stoops to blaspheme and insult two other religions indeed proves that 'Allah' is in fact those Arabs who wanted to establish an Arab monotheistic religion but didn't have a monotheistic history to fall back on in their Heathendom wherein those 'surah's' where too few, vague and simple, to establish a complete religion.

It is completely ludricous of Islam to say that she has 'improved (!) óther religions', lying her head off in the process including many mistakes with even historical impossibilities like: 'Abraham went to Mecca to lay the foundation stone for the Kabbah'. How on earth cóuld a long DEAD Jews travel to Mecca; and why would the Jew Abraham wánt to lay a foundation stone for a Heathen Temple is anyones guess - but muslims believe it as much as they believe that 'Muhammed had Jewish blood as a descendant of Ishmaël the Jew'.

According to Islam 'Allah' is the sáme God as YHW in Judaisme - how then is it póssible that 'Allah' hátes the Jews (and christians) and gloats over their defeat, has Jews murdered, makes Jews into slaves, disposses them of their land and possessions? GOD who 'changes his mind'? YHW who állways spoke directly to his 'chosen people' the Jews suddenly hátes them WHOLESALE in the Quran and hadiths?

All of the above simply proves that the Quran is an Arab-invented lie and in fact regarded as a Heresy of both Christianity and Judaisme.

Jihadist,
Muhammad had multiple wives and SEX SLAVES. One of his wives was a 9 year old kid. The sex slaves were women he made widows of because he butchered their husbands. He also promised houris to wed the Muslims in the Muslim heaven (Jannah). He made polygamy legal for Muslim men, as well as giving them the right to have sex with as many sex slaves as they can manage. Do you think we're sex-obsessed?

Be serious, girl. It is us kafir critics of Islam who are highlighting to us the sex obsession of your prophet and your religion.

Hello people!

Still here on sex and violence?

Y'all seem to miss irony and sarcasm of my postings, eh? Must be the literalists and inerrantists reading my postings here:)

Muslims are all the Antichrists, no? Oh wait. Jesus is one of the most respected Prophets in Islam.

Karen Armstrong is never a Muslim.

Have fun with each other:)

Somehow the post has gotten hijacked away from the subject- i posted this elsewhere and liked it so ill repost it here- possibly everyone forgot why they came to on faith in the first place- there had to have been some impetus to share experiences and learn to be tolerant of others-

thats why i came here-

by the way- im an ex-novitiate if that has any meaning- and im not from the 60s either-

Miriam

It's all very well for people 'from the 60's to go looking for exotic spirituality', but I find it despicable, and impossible to understand that an ex-nun like Karin Armstrong embraces a religion wherein the 'prophet' was a pedophile, had too many women in his bed, and wherein stoning to death, cutting off hands, bigamy (in fact four wives to one man) are allowed as is war.

Oh well I'm sure she is in seventh heaven because of the admiration she gets from the followers of that Muhammed.

Ross

I just get sick of the onse-side critique on 'christians' without muslims knowing or denying their own long bloody Islam history, or what was or is going on in Islam.

I recommended the book because 'Jihadist' also accused us of 'pornography' and all that saying 'we muslims don't do that'.
Therefore I said: see for yourself that (in the véry words of the Arabic author) 'Islam erotica' exists - on plates,on cups, on a cupboard door, on tiles, on leaflets, in books - the complete Arab Kama Sutra in pictures.

Victoria:

I see no mention of high bosomed houris and pearly boys in Anna's post.

Anna:
You go gir1 ;-)

Hip, Hip Houri !!!

were so glad anna that youve introduced pornography to the conversation- the total degeneration of this thread apparently is complete-

yes anna- your contributions are so relevant...

Jihadist

Jihadist:
"Quote: "The whole point of this is that, is to show up that westerners/non Muslims always go back to Prophet Muhammad PBUH and to highlight everything bad about Muslims

Unfortunately your 'prophet' was indeed a despicable and cruel man even though you deny it - the facts are on the table. A truly holy prophet doesn't fck a child, doesn't rape slave-women, doesn't murder, doesn't gather worldly wealth. Want me to give you the evidence?

"and see nothing good at all for what the faith means for hundreds of millions of Muslims for over 14 centuries."

And what is that? Wholesale poverty, analphabetisme, women as second-class citizens, child-marriages, stoning to death, cutting-off hands....?

Quote: "All the prostitution, boozing, bombing, drugs, murder and mayhem in the Islamic and wider world perpetrated only by Muslims. Poor world. It would be a better place without Muslims defiling it with booze, drugs, sex and violence."

I didn't say that but that Islam is rotten in her core - the Koran and hadieths!

Whether or not yóu/other muslims 'have four wives' or not is not important - the point is that Islam allows polygamy! Four women allowed in your bed means sexual discrimination against 3 women per night. I wonder how your 'prophet' cóuld be: 'fair and equal' to his 14 or so wives as there are only 7 days in a week - so at least 7 of his wives stood outside his bedroom door for a week - waiting for their turn for affection and sex.

Quote: "We all know the history of Christianity, the colonization and proselytyzing of the Europeans in Asia, Africa and Latin America, the Spanish Inquisition, the Shoah etc. We know about all that, and how the the Jews in Europe during the Middle Ages found better refuge in the Ismalic lands."

Sure, but what you apparently do not know (or deny/don't want to know) is that befóre christians the Islam Arabs waged 10 centuries of brutal wars also into Europe, colonised (!) all of the M.E., and forced people to accept Islam. Here a little bit about that:

Conquest of Egypt: "The ancient civilization of Egypt is not referred to as the Arabian civilization of ancient Egypt, nor are the pharaohs referred to as Arab kings. The Arab character was imposed only after the Arabs overran Egypt in 639-641 C.E. It was the Arabs who gave the name Copt to the Egyptians. The word Copt is an English word taken from the Arabic word Gibt or Gypt. The Jihadis vandalized this ancient land and wiped out Christianity as well as the ancient culture of Egypt – leaving only the massive Pyramids and the Sphinx as mute witness to the glory of Egypt before it was vandalized by the Arab Muslims....

Conquest of Lebanon: http://phoenicia.org/persecution1860.html "630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting “agreements” from northern tribes. They could enjoy the “privilege” of living under Islamic “protection” (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

Here 'Allah's admission that he condoned murder, theft, rape, enslavement:

quran 033.026
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book (Jews and christians). He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.”

see: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15311
for a comprhensive listing of the wars and colonisation of lands and the people who lived in it.

Here's more to help you convince yourself that Islam never was and isn't a 'peacefull religion':

From The Rise of Islam to The Massacres of Badr Khan Beg
650 A.D.
Many monks and ascetics were killed by the army of Sa'd along the Byzentine border, especially in the monastery called "The daughters of Five Churches" at Ra's Ayn (in modern Syria). (Michael G. Morony, Iraq after the Moslem Conquest, 1984, P. 379, Also J.B. Chabot, CSCO, Scr. Syri 56, Louvain, 1937)

661-680 A.D.
During the Patriarchate of Mar Gewargis I, the Ummayad Caliph Muawiyyah demanded gold from the Patriarch. The Patriarch refused and was imprisoned. The Christians were persecuted and their churches were destroyed.

686-701 A.D.
During the Patriarchate of Mar Khnanishu I, the Caliph Abd al-Malik imprisons and tortures the Patriarch and places another bishop in his place. Abd al-Malik was the first to insist on the collection of the poll tax from the Christians.

737 A.D.
The Caliph Mahdi decrees that all churches built since the Muslim conquest be destroyed. Over 5000 Christians from Halab were forced to accept Islam or death.............."

This goes on and on to:

1310 A.D.
Arabs, with the help of the Mongols, capture Arbela and massacre all of the inhabitants that could not be sold as slaves. Here is a description of the event:"'And they [Assyrians] went out at daybreak on the Sabbath, with their sons, and daughters, and wives, without any weapon, and without a sword, and without a knife, and when the wicked people of the Arabs saw that they had come down, they were filled with a fierce passion, and they drew their swords, and they slew them from the greatest of them to the least, without pity and without fear". Of those who held out in the fortress: "Famine vanquished them completely! Widows stretched out their hands and wept, and there was none to bind up what was broken. And there was absolutely no one to bury the dead. Who was there who had strength enough to dig a grave? Orphans died on the dung heaps. Others fell down dead in their houses and dried up, and others hurled themselves down from the wall, and those [Arabs] who were below received them on their swords, and hacked them to pieces. Their visages are blacker than ashes, and they cannot be recognized. Their skins have shrunk on their bones, and have dried up, and become like wood. Far happier are those who have been slain by the sword than those who have been slain by hunger".

and with Islam wars well into the 17th century and beyond (the Turks were known for their cruelty!) Besides, the Islam Arabs were the greates slave-traders éver; with their slavepit in Zanzibar, and the slave-markets in Tangiers. Not to forget the imprisonment of thousands of slave-women as concubines in their 'harems'.
In Kenia some 10.000 black slaves revolted against their Arab masters; and slavery still exist in e.g. Mauretania and Sudan. Would you like me to list the male and female slaves of Muhammed? Just say so.

If you are interested in Islam Erotic Art (porno) read and look at the pictures in: 'Oriental Erotica', Omega Books, ISBN 0-907853-60-9.

Jihadist,
How many Muslimahs are Qadis? I don't think there's even a single one in Saudi Arabia.

As for being uptight about sex - it was you who brought up Muhammad's polygamy and sex slaves. How's that for being obsessed with sex?

As a woman - I presume you're a woman - what do you feel about your prophet taking sex slaves?

How do you feel about your prophet condoning the rape of female captives (see the azl hadiths)?

How do you feel that your Allah permits Muslim men to have sex with their Right Hand Possessions aka sex slaves?

How do you feel about your husband going to Jannah where he gets to have sex with 72 houris while you watch?

and Ross, Rodrigo,

I am not being dismissive of you both and your concerns. I really just pay more attention to Muslim men who has the heart, will, ways, means to help Muslim women in their quests. And they are increasing, I am happy to see. Yes, there are Muslim feminist movements and organizations in Islamic countries.

I came by to check if Nafi came in and she blabbered on about me.

And BGone blabbered on and on about Satan:)
Please leave Satan or Lucifer or the Devil alone. He only tempt humans. Even Satan would leave us alone if we ignore it. Humans are the ones being devilish towards one another, no?

Ross and Rodrigo seem uptight about sex and moralisitic about it. Oh just convert to Islam to have a better sex life. Very easy. Just say, "There is no God but God and Muhammad is his Prophet" in front of two Muslims. That's all. No dunking in water to cleanse your sins necessary.

And then, best of all, you can have up to four wives! Having just one wife forced her to lie about having a headache when you want to get really close to her. You just have to go to another wife's place. And she's so happy to see you! Absence makes the heart grow fonder no?

And that Sura re wife beatings is really about S&M if you're into it. Get into leather and whip away ....

Some white men/non Muslim men remain obsessed on Prohet Muhammad PBUH private life and how many wives he has. Oh you puritans, you:)

And some Muslim men want their manly privileges without responsibilities. And religion is determined by men as members of the ulema and clergy. Well sex is good, no? Even our ulemas can marry and have up to four wives.

Why do you think more and more Muslim women are studying the Qur'an and Hadiths, studying Shariah law and becoming Kadis etc? It makes it possible for Muslim women to counter male perspectives and interpretations which is sexist, and helps Muslim women more than all the obsessions of Ross and Rodrigo here for in moving forward and attaining social justice.

The primary concern now is not on how many wives Muslim men can marry, and very few can afford anyway, but on divorce and alimony - The strengthening of the Shariah court system and mechanism so men can't absolve their responsibilities in finding loopholes in them.

Thank you Ms. Armstrong for your discourse on prayer. I enjoy reading your opinions on these websites, and I own 2 of your books, including your 1st, "Through The Narrow Gate". I was especially moved by your painful account of your unwilling break from the church of your youth. I too left my church unwillingly, though I did not have to become physically sick to leave. I was not as deeply involved in my church as you were in yours.

I like your ability to speak to the "egotism" in us. Prayer is not something I have regularly been involved in, except in the Christian Protestant church of my youth. And I would not characterize those 'prayers' as real attempts to pray/meditate/contemplate, as they were group organized and more like the mandatory 5-prayers-a-day Islamic prayers.

I would enjoy hearing you discuss more about group prayers. Have you ever participated in a group or mandatory prayer experience such as the National Prayer Breakfast that was moving or meaningful to you? Do you believe that group 'prayers' are actually praying (from a spiritual point of view)?

I respect very much the concept of 'prayer/meditation/contemplation' - to be able to change our perception of what is going on around us. I have had some experiences with such prayer. Perhaps you could further address your personal experiences with that subject?

ROSS, please don't degrade Satan and be sure to always spell his name with a capital S.

Lucifer is the Devil that Moses made the deal with and the one that inspired the Quran. Satan is innocent, had nothing to do with it.

Satan is the "accuser" who does the "test of soul" on the reborn dead. He has a lie detector and "accuses" the subject with having sinned in this life by asking a preset list of questions one at a time. The subject always denies and the lie detector indicates to Satan that the answer was truthful or a lie. Satan records the results using a scribe on the subject's soul, a clay tablet. Satan is God's right hand angel.

There's a better description of Satan with pictures at http://www.hoax-buster.org It's not proof the Bible is a hoax but enough for Bubba to get the idea something might be a littly tainted with faith.

Karen Armstrong wrote:
I disliked the idea of a God who demands endless praise -- he reminded me of a tyrant who demands constant, obsequious abasement from his subjects. Surely God did not need to be reminded that he had created the world and that we are all miserable sinners, as we say so frequently in our liturgy.

You're right - so what makes you think Allah is worthy of praise and prayers?

He of the 'qatiloo (fight to kill/battle/wage war against) all those who do not believe in Allah or the last day or do not forbid what Allah has forbidden and the people of the Book until they pay the Jizyah with humiliation/submission.

Oh... and don't tell me that the verse was written in the context of war since it was written in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9, after Muhammad had already conquered Mecca and Arabia - in which case there was no more war in Arabia, and on the eve of Muhammad's expansionary expedition to Tabuk (in Syria).

If you think some deity like that who commands Muslims to kill any non-believer until they submit as dhimmis is praiseworthy, you deserve to live as a dhimmi for a few years in Pakistan or some other sharia country.

JIHADIST wrote:
Better to be a fourth wife protected under law and recognized socially than to be a skulking mistress you hid somewhere eh :)

What your prophet is doing is degrading marriage by creating his own laws, OK how about
"Better to be a twenty fourth wife protected under law and recognized socially than to be a skulking mistress you hid somewhere eh :) "
If four is acceptable why not twenty four ?

A true prophet must aim to remove the sin of lust from people's heart's and mind's. If there is no light do not make darkness the standard.

JIHADIST wrote:
And Muslims are guided by the Qur'an and Hadith.

Unfortunately the quran and the hadith are far from sufficient, the quran is the handiwork of
satan and the acts of the person who wrote them as recorded in the hadith's only proves this.

Nafi Sahgem,

It's nice to hear from you.

Thank you for introducing Jihadist to On Faith.
I enjoy reading what she has to say and exchanging posts with her.

Please tell her to hurry back. She's wonderful!

Best wishes to you.

"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense," - Carl Sagan.

Ms Armstrong, you represent the best the West offers.
You are the type of person who respects humanity in every person you meet.

Miriam,

I had hoped to get out of On Faith permanently. But I forgot to respond on Ayaan Hirsi Ali on behalf of my friend who posted something about Ms Ali and you responded. I see that Jihadist use strong words about Ayaan Hirsi Ali above. She is quite familiar with Ms. Ali, her background in East Africa, and her activities in the Netherlands before the infamous death threats, and her move to the US.

I know for certain that, of all the western based female writers on Islam that you may be familiar with, Jihadist has more respect for the integrity of Irshad Manji. For her, Ms. Ali will always remain a politicized and self-serving "hired gun" with nothing new to offer to Muslim thought and Muslim NGOs, especially Muslim women's NGOs from Africa to Asia. Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji wrote "pop" books. But we are focussed on real papers and statistics by Muslim scholars, academics, think tankers in Muslim countries on real issues, their cause, their extent and ways to overcome them.

We are hooked up with Muslim NGOs, especially Muslim women's NGOs from Algeria to China for more years than even before Ms. Ali migrated to the Netherlands. There is nothing Ms Ali is saying that is not already known and discussed and funded for ways to overcome. And real change is slower than fast easy talk. Ms. Ali is only a talking head stating the obvious. And a self-serving sensationalist too, distracting from the real issues of poverty, lack of access to education and health etc for women impeding real reform. You would know that the majority of Muslims are in developing countries, the operative word here is "developing".

Can and will Ms. Ali be able to hustle for funds, organize functions and activities and sign checks for what needs to be done for Muslims, especially Muslim women to bring them forward? I don't think so. We can easily hire Ms. Ali for a presentation at a seminar, conference or TV talkfest. She is easily available and comparatively cheap. But it would still be a waste of time and money better spent on Muslims working at the national and grassroot levels, who really knows what is happening, what needs to be done and can actually get it done.

Islamic bankers can be insufferable, even the female ones. We all think we are changing the Islamic world with our contacts, our network, our funds for projects and enterprises, our sponsorships of programmes and activities.

Best regards and out of On Faith

Nafi Sahgem

Neal Jettpace wrote:
Good heavens!! Miss Armstrong makes one of the most cogent, insightful and humble comments I've heard in a long time regarding prayer.

The problem occurs when Ms. Armstrong associates islam with peaceful prayer, this is like associating Nazism with world peace.

Ali Sina's post above where he challenges Ms. Armstrong explains what is wrong with islamic prayer.

Hi Victoria, thanks for sharing the hatha yoga.
I focus on the physical benefit of hatha yoga, as a reminder that shalat also has that aspect, which they always teach me since I was a kid. For example, how do we stand up (standing up mountain style is one yoga position!), how do we prostate (ruku and sujud), etc. Not mentioning the breathing. I'm very much into physical fitness and outdoor activities like swimming and trekking, so breathing is important for me.

It's interesting term: heightened awareness to 'actively' surrender to the Creator. Perhaps then it's one way to manage our egotism.

My friend said, in shalat we focus to Allah. When we think 'we meet Allah', immediately we should be aware it's not Allah, there is the next journey, and next journey...and so on.

I honestly didn't get what he meant. But putting together our discussion now, isn't this 'heightened awareness, constant refocusing, surrender, and the next journey' is one way of saying in our prayer we constanly put aside our egotism (we surrender), that is the more we do the higher is the awareness. What we think of 'god' is really some sort of egotism, it's la ilaha illallah, there is no god but God.

Salam
Mia

==============================================

victoria:
Ms. Armstrong did write beautifully about prayer, since this is the subject ill stay on it.
I practiced hatha yoga for many years, and while it has physical benefits, its spiritual benefits personally were not what i was looking for- i was looking for a heightened awareness- and there seems to be a tendency to get lost in meditation- emerging with a 'good feeling' but ultimately that fades when confronted with pesky reality.
in Islamic salat(prayer) there is a constant refocusing- one keeps ones eyes open the whole time- there is no dissolution of awareness- but a conscious piercing acknowledgement- and then active love expressed to our creator, ALLAH- a giving of myself- instead of a seeking of some confirmation through experiential sense fulfillment.
Personally for me (i dont speak for anyone else) the meditative state is too sleepy- to dreamy- and like a dream fizzles in the light of consciousness and awareness- it is a passive waiting and for me- an expectancy- (no matter how long one meditates there is an underlying expectancy) and it is wonderful to be in the NOW but if it isnt something that can be utilized in ones life afterwards- it simply served as a feel good exercise-

it is possible to be actively in the NOW and act within that context-

===========================================

If you go to Amazon, you can read part of the preface to Ayaan Hirsi Ali's previous book, The Caged Virgin. You need to scroll down a little to get to the preface.
She does not sound like a panderer to me. She sounds straightforward, thoughtful, brave, questioning, intelligent, free.

Hello Norrie Hoyt and Victoria! and Miriam too.

Norrie Hoyt and Victoria - I remember you both from the only two days I got into On Faith several weeks ago and in one thread only.

I introduced my friend, who call herself Jihadist, for kicks I suppose, here to On Faith. I see that she has been quite busy and is more into it than I am in spite of work and all.

She asked me to pick up the slack when she's not around. I'm really not into this.

Miriam -

I want you to know that Jihadist has done more for Muslims and Muslim women than Ayaan Hirsi Ali did, will and can ever do in the Asia-Pacific region through national and inter-state organizations. Muslim fundamentalists are not quite fond of her, hurling epithets against her such as "westernized liberal feminist". She has been countering their arguments since she was in college and won quite a few battles too. She also studied Shariah law.

Well, I getting out of here. I can tell Jihadist honestly that I did come in, but not in the way she would want and really won't like what I've said here. Only two postings in the On Faith threads is all I can manage. Unlike her, I focussed my battles against the Muslim fanatics, fundamentalists and extremists only. But Jihadist seems to have expanded hers against bigoted non-Muslims as well as she consider them to be equally dangerous.

Best regards Victoria and Norrie Hoyt

Nafi Sahgem

Islamic Terrorist

I hear the Dallai Lama has a presidential appointment with a US universtity chairing Spirituality and Science... Well, he might get a better chance than Bush and the Rabbi

He'll succeed in prayers for Happiness among the Americans and Arabs alike...

Jihadist'

I also was disappointed that Ayaan Hirsi Ali associated herself with the AEI. Nevertheless, I find that she speaks the truth about Islam. I don't regard her either as a poseur or opportunist. She fights for the very human dignity and freedom which Islam denies. Consequently, she is on every jihadist hit list, and needs to be guarded round the clock for her protection. Maybe you can speak to your fellow jihadist friends and tell them to leave her alone.

To Neal Jettpace,
I don't know if this is the first post from Ms Armstrong that you have read in this series, but if it is, you need to know that some of us have been having a very lively discussion about some of her previous posts, and the nature of Islam. So if it seems that some of the posts are not addressing what she wrote in the present article, the discussion from her previous articles has now spilled over into this discussion.

Rodrigo- I agree, Ms Armstrong does not understand Islam. She is one of those Westerners, who dissatisfied with religion in the West go looking for something more satisfying elsewhere, and think they have found it with Islam. Sometimes they end up with Buddhism or Hinduism. This is the 1960's generation. The search for true spirituality is valid, but they stop short by being so impressed by the exotic culture from which these other religions spring that they forget what they were searching for to begin with. They start projecting onto these other religions all their hopes for true spirituality, and become unwilling to critically examine what is before their eyes. Because in my view, a genuine, unbiased, critical examination of Islam, can only lead to one conclusion, and that is, that Islam is a danger to human freedom and dignity. It is there in the religion right from the very beginning, right in the Quran. YOu have to be willing to be blinded not to see it. Read the Quran. You will see for yourself the type of behavior which Muslims think is acceptable, and continue to defend. Yes, there are beautiful passages in the Quran, but there also many absolutely vile passages. Until people like Jihadist and Victoria renounce those passages and spend their time arguing with their fellow Muslims, rather than with non-Muslims like us, there will never be peace with the Muslim world.

JIHADIST,

I hope you're having a good trip. Hello, Fellow Lawyer. We American lawyers are the same as you: As former colonials we use the British legal system too, as elaborated by 200 + years of our own thinking - which was pretty good until Reagan and the Bushes got to appoint Supreme Court Justices.

Most of the Republican-appointed Justices would be at home on Hitler's, Stalin's or Mussolini's Supreme Courts (especially Scalia on M's court). Scalia would also be great as the head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the Holy Inquisition).

I was interested in your suggestion that we should buy Islamic bonds - no investments in alcohol, drugs, pork bellies, pornography, houses of prostitution, and so on. But Jihadist, these are all the growth industries! How would I make any money?

I look forward to your safe return.

Too bad the Democrats cannot stop the war, to prove it's all talk and no action.. Or is it a blessing in disguised on a prayer...

Karen,

Have you, really, put on weight recently ?

Karen Armstrong does not understand Islam - yet she deigns to write about Islam as if she were an expert. It is time she came out and talked to real Muslims and ex-Muslims about her understanding of Islam so we can clear up any misconceptions she has.

She might have written about prayer here but do these beautiful prayers include praying to the imaginary friend of one pedophile bandit who took sex slaves?

I wonder.

Good heavens!! Miss Armstrong makes one of the most cogent, insightful and humble comments I've heard in a long time regarding prayer, and what are the responses? Juvenile, sophmoric rantings such as "Mohammed was a pedophile!" and "You can't prove there even is a God!" and "Go help the Iraqi terrorists!"

The anger and bitterness in these statements say much more about the posters than anything related to Miss Armstrong's point. I hesitate to say it but the term "pearls to swine" seems somewhat appropriate here.

If you can't add something constructive to the discussion here please do the rest of us a favor and save these sorts of debasements for someone who can really help you.

I am in flight transit, some three hours and thought I'd look up the bile here in these On Faith threads for entertainment. It is really kind of addictive to read rants and see bile pouring out of someone's pores and fingertips :)

NORRIE HOYT

I'm glad you found Buddhism precepts and meditation best for you and you're lawyer too. I took a law degree after doing economics, albeit, international law. Can't see myself as an advocate or solicitors. We use the British legal system, being a former British colony.

PHILO

Love your posting here on what you said about prayers. You said said it most, most beautifully.

VICTORIA

Ignore Islamic Terrorist. He is giving them a bad name, unless he meant he wants to terrorize and hound out Muslims here in these On Faith threads with his barrage of words. Its not working :)

And so, what is it to them if you follow or don't don't, read or don't, books and articles by Ms. Karen Armstrong?

Do I really have to care for Ayaan Hirsi Ali - a posuer and an opportunist cynically pandering to the worst reflexes of western assumptions about Muslims? She is hired and promoted by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).

Victoria
I didn't know that you follow Ms. Armstrong, so which struggle do you identify with? Islam, insurgent, or using prayer to improve your language skills?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is being interviewed as I write this on Talk of the Nation on NPR. Also here is an interview with her about her new book, Infidel:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/
weekinreview/04goodstein.html

Ms. Armstrong did write beautifully about prayer, since this is the subject ill stay on it.
I practiced hatha yoga for many years, and while it has physical benefits, its spiritual benefits personally were not what i was looking for- i was looking for a heightened awareness- and there seems to be a tendency to get lost in meditation- emerging with a 'good feeling' but ultimately that fades when confronted with pesky reality.
in Islamic salat(prayer) there is a constant refocusing- one keeps ones eyes open the whole time- there is no dissolution of awareness- but a conscious piercing acknowledgement- and then active love expressed to our creator, ALLAH- a giving of myself- instead of a seeking of some confirmation through experiential sense fulfillment.
Personally for me (i dont speak for anyone else) the meditative state is too sleepy- to dreamy- and like a dream fizzles in the light of consciousness and awareness- it is a passive waiting and for me- an expectancy- (no matter how long one meditates there is an underlying expectancy) and it is wonderful to be in the NOW but if it isnt something that can be utilized in ones life afterwards- it simply served as a feel good exercise-

it is possible to be actively in the NOW and act within that context-

and god is not poor- so when you ask how the Prophet(pbuh) supported himself and family-
it certainly is not beyond the capacity of the creator of all to provide for his creation-
as Jesus(ata) said "Do not be anxious saying what shall we eat or what shall we wear? Your god knows you need these things and will provide for them.

There is a story about Muhammad(pbuh) that if he were to receive a mountain of gold- it would be gone by the next day- as he would distribute it to the needy- the Prophet(pbuh) was offered by the wealthiest men of his community to be the most powerful leader if he would only give up his mission- and refused. He remained financially insolvent his whole career personally.

ISLAMIC TERRORIST- contrary to your wild misinterpertation- i dont follow ms. armstrong
salaams

"To thank, praise, and beg pardon wholeheartedly, without holding anything back. And as we do that, we chip away at our egotism."

In your dreams, my dear.

I would suggest that prayer BUILDS UP the personal ego....Affirms YOUR PERSONAL views/ego needs/group think.

"LOOK EVERYBODY! I'M PRAYIN'!!! AND I'M RIGHT AND GOOD CAUSE I'M PRAYIN! BUY YOUR HOME FROM MEEEE CAUSE I'M STANDIN' HERE PRAYIN'....SEE? COME GET YOUR HAIR DONE AT MY PLACE CAUSE.....I'M HERE PRAYIN'!"

I'm SURE those very religious slave-owners in the South prayed LOUD and OFTEN during the Civil War.

15 minutes of ego-stroking and fame, courtesy of your local Organized Religion.

Ms. Anderson and your followers, it appears that you are in the wrong business. I think you could do well among the insurgents in Iraq spreading the hatred among your own kind.

Ms. Armstrong

I appreciated your commentary. Belief in and prayer to our Creator certainly helps us to become more humble, eliminating the pride and arrogance that is human, thereby bringing us closer, albeit not perfect, to emulating God the way He intended mankind to do from the start.

Genesis 3:19 says "You will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow"

Praying is an attempt to bypass that, one of God's very first commands. Prayers begin with "please dear God" followed immediately with a request for something be is forgivness of God's laws broken or for "my team" to win the game, (prayer comes to the public schools so the team can get God's blessing and win).

Yes, there are statements of praise but they are not prayers, by definition. To pray is to ask, beg. Even here we need a thick carpet to say God needs to be told how glorious God is be that so or otherwise, (no one has ever seen God so God could be as ugly as a barn door).

The bottom line on prayer is the desire to circumvent God command to "do it yourself" and leave God out of it.

Beware! http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul warns us that all praying is to Devil. God demands we earn our own bread while Devil allows us to "eat the lunch" of others and through His clever disguises do it in God's name.

Pray at your own risk. It's one thing to credit God with one's accompolishments and something radically different to thank God for that to which one is not truly entitled. Devil justifies lying, cheating, robbing and killing and stands ready to hear your supplications for help to do that.

When is the pope going to return the gold robbed from native Americans by the Conquistadors? Was it God or Devil that helped them take it and the church to keep it? The accessory to the crime is equally guilty.

Jihadist wrote:

"...Prophet Muhammad PBUH is not merely a religious figure. He was also a temporal leader".

Temporal you say, meaning mental?

If jihad was all to do with personal struggle, then why is it that kuffars usually pay a price with their lives when muslims practice this very personal form of struggle?

Hi Anna,
Perhaps, you are practicing mantra yoga? I'll be glad to read your sharing.

In Muslim prayer or shalat we read quotes from the Quran/Hadis. I sometimes recite loud enough, sing it or chant it in my prayer. Some of the words in English translation: "God forgive me, bless me, give me strength, health,....."

Ross, yes yoga is very old tradition. It has thousand kind of body positions. And I find that the way we move in shalat is just some of it. BTW, muslims believe in the teachings of all prophets.

I'm excited about doing experiment on this and would love to share if anyone is doing it also. One reason is because so I could share it with my sons who know how to prayer but they are lazy of doing it.

I told them that praying is not about 'worshipping god', but it's more for our own reflection. I will forward Ms. Armstrong article to them, perhaps it's more appealing than listening to their mom who always bug them to pray. Also because they are Indonesian-American, and studying in the States now, so it'll be a good reminder.

Best regards
Mia

==============================
Mia

Yoga is indeed from Buddhisme which Islam doesn't recognise and Yoga must therefore be 'haram' but good on you moving away from that awfull 'religion'Islam.

Posted February 4, 2007 4:59 AM

Posted on February 4, 2007 04:59

ross:
ANNA,

Actually yoga is from hinduism invented hundreds of years before buddhism, either ways it is haram for muslims since it is a set of exercises for physical and spiritual development.

Posted February 4, 2007 5:11 AM

Posted on February 4, 2007 05:11

ross:
MIA,

YOGA is far better for a person's well being than islam.

Posted February 4, 2007 5:13 AM

Posted on February 4, 2007 05:13

anna:
Ross

You are right of course. Sorry!

The muslim woman writes that she wants to use 'mantra yoga'!!! hahahaha a muslim HINDU!

===================================

Prayer should not be petitionary, but an exercise in openning oneself to the presence of God. It is a place to be naked, stripped of the outer covering of our ego and its concerns. It is a place to be aware of the boundlessness that is God, beyond any limited conception that forms in my mind. It is a place which is like the space between the eyes of lovers, a place where a moment stretches into eternity. It is the place where "i" melts away in the presence of the One God.

What if I posted as anonymous? It doesn't mean anything except you're a juvenile.

Who is obsessed with sex? Not me - I'm not the one who took sex slaves and had multiple wives. It was you who brought up Muhammad's wives - not me. I only showed the historical circumstances of how he came to marry those 'widows' like Juwairiyya and Safia and kept sex slaves like Rayhana and Mariah Qibtillah.

Karen Armstrong being a smart woman is a matter of opinion. I can tell her knowledge of Islam is far from adequate.

Jihadist,

I just found your e-mail of early yesterday morning. Thanks for calling me a Buddhist. I don't call myself a Buddhist yet - it would seem to me to be presumptuous - I don't think I'm far enough along yet to qualify as one.

And my pervasive agnosticism keeps me from identifying myself as a follower of any belief system. Actually, though, I do try to follow Buddhist ethical precepts.

If you're interested, you can check my identical posts in the Byron and Collins threads where I describe where I think I am. As I state in them, my Buddhism is home-grown, lacking instruction from a Buddhist teacher or membership in a sangha.

I'm sure my "Buddhism" would be scorned by many traditional Buddhists, but it's what's happening all over American and is, I think very American.

I regret that I haven't read any of Ms. Armstrong's books. My elder son has and thinks they're great. Thanks for recommending "The Spiral Staircase. I'll read it.

I ddn't consciously start out evangelizing for Buddhism. As a lawyer (among other things), I see my role in these threads as a cross-examiner, trying to point out what I see as absurdities, falsehoods, ironies and the like. Buddhism seems to me to be an obvious better alternative to these negative things.

I admire your well-readness and your spunky posts.

Best Wishes.

Rodrigo Bivar. Is that you as Anonymous? So roused up that you forgot to put your name :)

My friend, the Prophet Muhammad PBUH sex life and wives seems to obsessed you. All the historical "facts" about the Prophet that you quoted are from the Hadith and biographies of him by Muslims.

No by the Muslims and no Muslim rulers or ulema or scholars banned or censored them. Whatever you know and quoted about the Prophet is from Muslims themselves. And no, we have no St Paul.

The Prophet had children with his first wife Khatijah, and after she died, with his other wives, he had a son who died. But not by Aishah.

Better to be a fourth wife protected under law and recognized socially than to be a skulking mistress you hid somewhere eh :)

And Muslims are guided by the Qur'an and Hadith. Islam is not yet obselete. 1.2 billion people are Muslims still. GASP!

Just to keep you going some more. Let it all out:)

Ms Armstrong is too smart, adult and matured to get into this infantile exchange between us.

Peace be with you.

By the way, we are in different time zones and I am opposite you in the other end of the world. I read On Faith after my dawn prayers. And I will have now have to prepare to go to work.

I will also be out of the country here and there for work for a couple of weeks. Please don't think I'm being rude if I don't respond to your subsequent postings.

Jihadist,
So when Muhammad took sex slaves he was putting aside his supposed moral role as the prophet of Allah and put on his temporal leader hat? What gives? Can a prophet of god just slip out of his morality like a suit of clothes?

It was you who brought up Muhammad's marriages as some sort of moral behavior. I'm just showing up the errors of your argument from historical facts.

Islam is as obsolete as Diana worship. If you can't see just how barbaric it is then I suggest you read the Quran and hadiths. Read how your holy prophet raided unsuspecting villages, committed genocide and ethnic cleansing and TOOK SEX SLAVES.

How is that a moral guide for anyone today?

Also, I bring Karen Armstrong into the discussion because she is pertinent to the discussion. Or is this a stamp collecting blog I've stumbled on? Whose picture is on the top of the page? Whose books are we discussing here?

Rodrigo Bivar

I am going to western cliches about sex slaves, harems etc when talking about Muslims. Go to Bangkok and you will see who are the customers of sex workers. Read a bit more objectively and you will see who are the ones engaging in mail order brides from Asia.

Talking about sex, the higest percentages of those with HIV/AIDs are not Muslims. Talking about hard drugs, the highest precentages of abusers are not Muslims.

The Prophet Muhammad PBUH is not merely a religious figure. He was also a temporal leader. And a very pragmatic one at that.

Claim what you like for Islam as obselete and barbaric. It survived for over 14 centuries and still able to maintain its identity and reasserting its principles in the political, economic and social sphere. The alternative systems and approaches must be have been not attractive and persuasive enough.

Prophet Muhammad PBUH may or may not be the perfect man to be emulated by Muslims. But he never ever did say they should. Muslim freely chose to do so.

What other figure in history can claim that kind of affection and respect in spite of all his flaws by your current standards, and not that in the context of his society of that time.

What I find most interesting is that, it is always the Prophet Muhammad PBUH that is vilified, not his message of One God by the evangelicals. Harder to explain the Trinity and easier to vilify the Messenger of God who asserted its Oneness and had begotten none or sired any Son?

And what is wrong if Jesus was actually married in history and had children? He is, after all, though a Prophet, is a man who performed miracles because God wills it.

And if you are an atheist, well, you can't persuade me that God is a delusion by vilifying the Prophet Muhammad PBUH. He is a man in full and with a full life.

And please, don't drag Karen Armstrong in this discussion. She was talking about prayers up there, a topic you have ignored.

Jihadist,
Why shouldn't we go back to Muhammad whom Muslims claim to be the perfect example for all time? To claim that we shouldn't is tantamount to admitting Islam is an obsolete barbaric religion that we should consign to the garbage can.

It was you who alluded to Muhammad's marriages as something moral or good. I'm merely correcting your assertion with the real history.

If you think taking sex slaves is a moral thing to do then go ahead and be like Karen Armstrong who can't see the wood from the trees.

Love it:) Got y'all really going, and going, and going.

Rodrigo Bivar

Thank you. I don't need the lessons I already know about.

The whole point of this is that, is to show up that westerners/non Muslims always go back to Prophet Muhammad PBUH and to highlight everything bad about Muslims and see nothing good at all for what the faith means for hundreds of millions of Muslims for over 14 centuries.

Anna and Rodrigo

All the sex and violence you get excited about on Islam. How exciting to be a Muslim....since its came about and now. People are always obsessed about the sex life of the Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

And what would y'all be without us to measure yourselves against. All the prostitution, boozing, bombing, drugs, murder and mayhem in the Islamic and wider world perpetrated only by Muslims. Poor world. It would be a better place without Muslims defiling it with booze, drugs, sex and violence.

Of course I am swarthed in a burka/hijab/chador, the fourth wife, married at nine years old to a man with one of his hands chopped off for stealing a chicken. And my husband has two concubines/sex slaves. We all smoke weed or bong or snort heroin and then pile into bed together for great sex.

Anna

Seriously, whatever you say, don't bother me. We all know the history of Christianity, the colonization and proselytyzing of the Europeans in Asia, Africa and Latin America, the Spanish Inquisition, the Shoah etc. We know about all that, and how the the Jews in Europe during the Middle Ages found better refuge in the Ismalic lands.

You should really ask the Indonesians and Malaysians on the activities of the evangelicals that really infuriates them. E.g. giving a 7 year old child in their schools sweets, asking them to do prayers etc without the parents' concent and knowledge.

I really do not want to go into other faiths to point out about immolation of widows, female babies still being buried in sand because they are not wanted, the logic of certain sacraments, the massive trafficking of people and prostitution in Buddhist Southeast Asia, the horrific oppression of Buddhist military regimes. The Chinese Triads.

You really should travel to Indonesia and Malaysia to see for yourself instead of reading up on them. It is really cheap and affordable. Unless your live in a trailer park.

Oh come on, go into another round of Muslim sex and violence. Y'all can only have it in Hollywood movies while we are living it, doing it. And with sex, drugs, booze and prostitution, we see heading for global domination:)

Jihadist

Quote: "Educated Muslim for centuries, including Muslim scholars, are sceptical of the transmission and collection of the Hadith..... "

I am sorry but I am nót referring to "hadiths" but to the blatant hatred, discrimination, intolerance and racisme in the QURAN as against ús christians, Jews, 'infidels' and the rest of Allah's 'worthless mankind'! Are you saying 'in context and time' that your 'Allah' has 'now changed his mind' and 'loves christians, Jews and infidels'? You must be joking!

Quote: "Perhaps you should stop focussing on Arab Muslims."

You are denying that 'Allah' and Muhammed, the founders of Islam were Arabs, and that théy allready started that 10 centuries long gruesome 'jihad' which you should really inform yourself about from S.A. Arabië into Irak, Persia, India, Turkey, Europe - even into Iceland and Denmark - with muslim raiders/buccaneers taking prisoners and selling them as slaves on the slavemarket in e.g. Tangiers.

..... endless Islam wars in which thousands and thousands were brútally murdered who didnt want to convert to Islam. And dont tell me 'that's not true'' as I can given you books full of evidence of the enormous destruction of other peoples and other cultures perpetrated by Islam - including in "Turkey"'with grandscale destruction of christian churches (a total of 70.000 churches were destroyed by Islam).

Back to the Quran:

Blasphemy in the Quran:

The Crucifiction of Christ denied: 'but they crucified him not'

"Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Surah 9:30)

Quran 5:117 "And when Allah shall say: "Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people: 'Consider me and my mother as two Gods next to Allah'. he will say: 'Holy art Thou. I would never say, to which I have no right'.

Quran Surah 28: The Narrative:
Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom, saying: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? 62-64

Quran 5:14-15".... And with those who say 'we are christians' we also had a covenance, but they forgot part of what they had been told. Therefore We caused animosity and hatred amongst them, till the Day of Judgement. Allah shall soon let them know what they did".

Quran Surah 5: The Table Spread

Christians will be burned in the Fire. 72
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 73

Surah 9: Repentance
Give tiding of a painful doom to Christians and Jews. 34

Quran Surah 28: The Narrative
Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom, saying: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? 62-64

Quran Surah 30: The Romans
Allah will tear Christians apart for ascribing partners to him. 13-14

BLASPHEMY:

Quran 5:74 'Truly they [christians] insult God, who say: 'Allah is One of Three"

quran 033.026
Allah'admits to murder and theft:
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book [Jews and christians]. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.”

Quote: "Pay more attention and you will see that it is now the Southeast Asian Muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia pushing forward the Islamic world."

Again you must be joking! Malaysia is totally intolerant of christians and other minorities, and of muslims apostating!
In Indonesia millions of Islamists are ramming the door of the Indonesian government, with Sumatra's and Atjeh's beautifull cultures totálly destroyed by Islam! A GREAT SHAME! Where once women were proud and of their beautfull cultures they are now hidden under hideous Islam teacosies!

Islamists in Indonesia are now clammering for the destruction of the last bit of indigenous Indonesian cultures as 'haram'= not-islamic.

Not to forget: christians on the Molukken who have their houses burned down, their children murdered by muslims. I have séén a photograph of a christian schoolgirl who's head had been beheaded!
We have seen the explosions on Bali by MUSLIMS and nót by the beautifull, culturally so rich and ellegant Balinese.

What I did see on Bali were sourfaced muslim- women spoiling the beautifull Hindu environment all dressed in ludricous headscarves/teacosies in the heat of the day!

Quote: "As for Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his marriages, most were tribal alliances and widowers."

No-one can convince me that these were 'old widows', his slave Maria the Copt, nor his 'wife' Aisha were 'old', nor the Jewish women Muhammed stole from his stepson.

I advise you to leave that 'puhb' óut that man was a despicable murderer, a cruel War Lord óut for secular power and submission of others, and with too many women in his bed to be called 'a man of God'.
That 'prophet', just like Saddam (!) even murdered his own tribespeople! And no pedophily is nót, never éver 'normal'!

Quote: "Guaranteed no investment in alcohol, gambling, pornography, arms/weapons and pork products. Very halal:)"

What is infinitely more 'haram' in fact totally IMMORAL to me is a 'religion' with a stupid 'Brotherhood', preaching Apartheid, a 'sharia wherein Stoning to Death, Cutting off Hands, Child marriages,'Prostitution, Polygamy, Censureship, and grand-scale Oppression of women is allowed and as perpetrated in Islamic countries.

Hypocrites that's what muslims are as in Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, Marocco, Somalia .... there are thousands and thousands of prostitutes in niqaab or not (whole villages full in Marocco according to a Moroccan) half Afghanistan and Iran are on drugs, not to speak about "weapons" (!!!!) and people-smuggling by muslims. The huge Turkish maffia has unfortunately also found her way into Europe.

Jihadist,
The reason why some of Muhammad's wives were widows was because he made them widows.

For example:

Juwairiyya bint Harith was the daughter of the chief of the Banu Mustaliq. Muhammad and the Muslims attacked the B. Mustaliq tribe in an unprovoked attacked and killed many of the men - including Musafi’ bin Safwan, Juwairiyya's husband.

Safiyya bint Huyay was the wife of Kinana bin al-Rabi. They were B. Nadir Jews and the men were exterminated at the Battle of Khaibar. Muhammad tortured Kinana before murdering him to force him to reveal where the Nadirs kept their treasure - which didn't exist. Then he took Safiya for his wife.

Rayhanah bint Zaid was not even his wife but his sex slave. He took her prisoner after committing genocide on the B. Quraizah Jews where he had all the men killed and enslaved all the women and children.

You make it seem as if Muhammad was a charitable man for marrying widows. Don't forget he took them prisoners after butchering their people.

None of the women he 'married' were alliance marriages - not a single one. Except for the Jewish prisoners of war he took as wives or sex slaves he married devout Muslim women who were from tribes already in thrall to him. The only possible 'alliance' was when the Egyptian governor Mukaukas sent him Mariah the Copt - a sex slave - whom Muhammad did not marry until she gave birth to Ibrahim. Then he 'freed' and 'married' her (i.e. de facto marriage) according to some sources.

Hope this helps.

Ross, Anna, Farzana, Alla and whomever else who had fun here :)

Good for you in having done your homework. Only a few Suras from the Al Qur'an and some from the Hadith and biographical pieces that Muslims already knew :) Thank you for educating us again.

Ever heard of ijtihad? And the wider non-Arab Muslim world?

Educated Muslim for centuries, including Muslim scholars, are sceptical of the transmission and collection of the Hadith. Educated Muslims now are beginning to look at the Qur'an and the Hadith in their historical context without subsuming the message of the Qur'an. And Muslim clerics/scholar over the centuries do abrogate specific Suras that contradicts.

Perhaps you should stop focussing on Arab Muslims. Over the centuries, it was the non-Arab Muslims who largely created the so-called Islamic civilization and culture - Al Andalus, Turkey, Iran, Central Asia, India. Even in Baghdad, it was many non-Arab Muslims who are the greatest Muslim minds. Even Saladin, the great ruler, was a Kurd.

In the last hundred years, it was not Arab Muslims who got nuclear technology, but the Pakistanis. Okay, bad example knowing western/Christian paranioa about the "Islamic bomb."

Pay more attention and you will see that it is now the Southeast Asian Muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia pushing forward the Islamic world.

Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country and the world's third largest democracy. Malaysia is now the world's more innovative has the biggest capitalization for Islamic banking and financial services. The Muslims of both countries are pushing Islamic thought away from the Arab Muslim. They are relying more and more on their own scholars for Islamic thought and interpretation of the Qur'an.

So, while you are harping again and again about the militaristic Suras of the Qur'an and on the person of Prophet Muhammad PBUH, Muslims are moving into a direction you are really not aware off.

As for Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his marraiges, most were tribal alliances and widowers. He was a man of his time in an Arab desert and intensely tribal society. Still is. All Muslims knows this about the Prophet already. Why would your observations makes any difference?

Peace be with you. Onward NeoIslamists.

PS - want to buy some Islamic bond? Guaranteed no investment in alcohol, gambling, pornography, arms/weapons and pork products. Very halal:)

Ross

You are right of course. Sorry!

The muslim woman writes that she wants to use 'mantra yoga'!!! hahahaha a muslim HINDU!

MIA,

YOGA is far better for a person's well being than islam.

ANNA,

Actually yoga is from hinduism invented hundreds of years before buddhism, either ways it is haram for muslims since it is a set of exercises for physical and spiritual development.

Mia

Yoga is indeed from Buddhisme which Islam doesn't recognise and Yoga must therefore be 'haram' but good on you moving away from that awfull 'religion'Islam.

Hi Ms. Armstrong
I had discussion with a couple of friends of how to improve my shalat (muslim prayer). At the same time I was wondering about yoga. I wouldn't have time to do both yoga and 5 time-a-day shalat.

Then I completed your book Buddha. It made me depressed, what I mean is thinking outloud. So I took yoga classes. And I'm practicing hatha yoga now beside my prayer.

I'm convinced that shalat is 'a form of yoga'. Not only hatha yoga by its movement, but also mantra, jnana yoga by the recital and the purpose of Muslim prayer.

So I'm on doing my own experiment these days how to collaborate the hatha yoga into my prayers. And my yoga teacher doesnt mind at all, in fact, she is helpful.

I wonder what's the next, how I'm practicing the concept of mantra yoga into the recital of my salat. I have not taken mantra yoga classes yet.

Salam
Mia

Jihadist

"God is gender free and definitely do not look like man"

You have personally met IT=Allah?

When we read the macho-centric Quran & hadiths then we can only conclude that 'Allah' is 'He'(a man) as he is reférred to as 'He' and never as 'She' or 'It' in the Quran.

Therefore if 'Allah means 'IT' (no gender) according to you, and if the Quran is written 'by Allah' then 'Allah' should have referred to himself as 'IT'.

e.g. 'IT has created the earth and the sky', but no Allah uses 'I', 'HE, and even 'WE in surah's.

e.g.: quran 033.026
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book [Jews and christians]. HE cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And HE made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.”

'WE'(meaning 'Allah') is used in:

"...... Therefore WE caused animosity and hatred amongst them, till the Day of Judgement. Allah shall soon let them know what they did". Quran 5:14-15

Can you tell me who represents that 'WE' in the Quran? Maybe your 'Allah' has a wife after all; ór was incapable of writing the Quran by ITSELF, HIMSELF, or HERSELF?

Here a slip of the tongue about who réally wrote the Quran:

Qur’an 33:36 “It is not fitting for a Muslim man or woman to have any choice in their affairs when a matter has been decided for them BY Allah AND HIS MESSENGER. They have no option."

That is:
a) 'shirk = Muhammed claiming to be in partnership with Allah
b) indicates that 'Allah' is in fact Muhammed who misused God to his own ends as he did on séveral occasions.

Ms. Armstrong writes: “But then I came to understand that prayer is really for us.”

Dear Ms. Armstrong: Even if the prayers are for us; that is not the case in Islam. In Islam prayers are obligatory. Why? If it is for us, then it should be voluntary. Both Bukhari and Muslim report a hadith of Muhammad who has said: “I thought that I should order the prayer to be commenced and command a person to lead people in prayer, and I should then go along with some persons having a fagot of fuel with them to the people who have not attended the prayer (in congregation) and would burn their houses with fire.” (Muslim Book 004, Number 1370; and Bukhari Volume 1, Book 11, Number 626).

If in Islam the prayers were for the benefit of the believers then why force them to pray with this much violence? It is clear that Allah is very needy and desperate for praise. How can the maker of the universe be so petty? It is because Allah is not God but Muhammad’s other alias. This man whom you so mistakenly have come to believe was a prophet was a narcissist, a cult leader no different from Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson or Shoko Asahara. Islam was his way to get his narcissistic supply and make people love him, fear him and respect him. To be God is the narcissist’s wet dream. Muhammad realized that dream. As a narcissist he could not tolerate rejection and neglect. When he demanded his foolhardy followers to pray to Allah that prayer was for him. That is why he was so offended and acted so violently towards those who did not believe in him, did not pray to him and rejected his claim. A narcissist cannot tolerate rejection and neglect.

By defending Islam and portraying it as a religion, you have done a lot of harm. I have had many emails from westerners leaving Islam and blaming you for misleading them into Islam in the first place. It is time that you come to your senses and face the truth. I invite you to debate with me publicly in writing. I have shown that Islam is a cult and Muhammad was a psychopath narcissist. If you can prove me wrong or prove that Muhammad had anything to do with God, I will remove my site and publicly acknowledge that I was wrong.

Ali Sina

To prove this message is authentic, I am posting it also in my site. http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=731231#731231

Dear jihadist, Can you plz answer me, what was mohammad's source of income after he proclaimed prophethood? Remember he had a large family of 11 wives, slaves and concubines.
Thank you

You are right, dear Anna and Ross, God created by a mafia, has to be a mass murderer like him.

Hello Jihadist.

I assume you have chosen this name because you mistakenly think "jihad" means "inner struggle."

Perhaps to YOU it does but not to MUHAMMAD.

Virtually every sentence in which muhammad uses the word he includes other words such as "kill, maim, torture, behead, fight, etc."

Here are some samples but there are many more:

Qur'an:2:216 "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."

Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward."

Bukhari:V4B52N44 "A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.' He replied, ‘I do not find such a deed.'"

Bukhari:V1B2N25 "Allah's Apostle was asked, ‘What is the best deed?' He replied, ‘To believe in Allah and His Apostle Muhammad.' The questioner then asked, ‘What is the next best in goodness?' He replied, ‘To participate in Jihad, religious fighting in Allah's Cause.'"

Qur'an:33:22 "Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle."

Bukhari:V4B53N412 "Allah's Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, ‘There is no migration now, only Jihad, holy battle. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N311 "Allah's Apostle said, ‘There is no migration after the Conquest of Mecca, but only Jihad. When you are called by the Muslim ruler for Jihad fighting, you should go forth immediately, responding to the call.'"

Muslim:C28B20N4631 "I heard Muhammad say: ‘I would not stay behind when a raid for Jihad was being mobilized unless it was going to be too hard on the believers. I love that I should be killed in Allah's Cause; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again.'"

8:12
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Ross
Which Sura in the Qur'an?

Anna,
Read Marci Hamilton's God vs the Gavel.

Peace be with you both.

Well, indeed is is not very nice when people say 'you are too fat'; but worse when Karin Armstrong dares to compare Jezus-Christ, Redeemer, Man of Peace and Love with Muhammed a murderer, a War Lord, and a pedophile (although I believe Karin Armstrong thinks that pedophily was 'normal in those days' - but certainly nót, Karen Armstrong, for Muhammed who issued himself as 'a prophet' and as 'inspired by God'!

Not all man are pedophiles I'm sure you know, but all pedophiles are child molesters and child rapists and Muhammed cannot have been the 'exeption' not even as supposedly having been 'approved by Allah'.

Therefore I shall prayer for Karin Armstrong that Jezus-Christ will forgive her for her sins of degrading and blaspheming Jezus-Christ if only by comparing Him with Muhammed the anti-Christ incarnate.

What did allah think of the Jews of Medina? You know the ones who were beheaded in an afternoon's entertainment after the siege. Allah santioned this in chapter 33 of the koran, so I guess they must have ended up in Hell.

Doesn't sound very merciful to me.

Karen wrote:
as the Qur’an says, closer to me than my jugular vein

That's the part of the body of the disbeliever that the Allah of the quran commands its followers to slash if they do not accept islam.

HAPPY HALLAL SLITTING !!!

Norrie Hoyt my favourite Buddhist here:)

Since when have you started to evangelize for the Lord Buddha and Buddhist meditation here and in other threads of On Faith? :)

Ms. Armstrong wrong a book on "Buddha". Read her "The Spiral Staircase" for a sense of the lady's belief in God and spiritualism.

But I suppose you want to hear it from Ms. Armstrong herself:)

God is gender free and definitely do not look like man.

The Eightfold Noble Path always: Right or proper -understanding, speech, livelihood, awareness, attitude, action, effort, composure.

warm regards and peace be with you.

Karen Armstrong,

To whom or what does the word "God", that you use, refer to? Or does it refer to nothing at all, and so is just a meaningless string of three letters?

Do you believe in this "God"?

Is this "God" YHWH? YHWH, as you know, was called the "Ignorant Demiurge" by the Cathars, as he was an evil, deluded, lesser deity who mistakenly believed he was the Ultimate Godhead.

Or is your "God" a modern, enlightened, deity compatible with northeastern liberal Episcopalians of the martinis-after-Mass [or before] set?

Who or what is this guy or gal you call "God"?

I think you would be more likely to achieve the goals you hope to attain through prayer, if you became a Buddhist. Your prayer time would become meditation time, and your spiritual pursuits would no longer be cluttered up with having to contend with, and be concerned with, a three-letter word with no referent.

Regards.

Ms. Armstrong

At the risk of blubbering like a fool, a very good essay on prayers. Amen/Amin to that on why we pray.

And thank you for bringing me back to faith, for reminding me on Islam, and what a Muslim should be.

And to my neighbourhood imam too. That man just won't ever let us use prayers to God to excuse ourselves from personal and community responsibilies.

I got all your books :) Blush, blush.