A Day to Celebrate Superstition?

Just to clear up the fact that no UK Local Authority has ever tried to ban christmas. This is merely one element of a phoney war on christmas that was invented by, and continuies to be organised by, those of a religious bent for their own purposes.

Just to clear up the fact that no UK Local Authority has ever tried to ban christmas. This is merely one element of a phoney war on christmas that was invented by, and continuies to be organised by, those of a religious bent for their own purposes.

Danny B - just to clarify -- I didn't feel duped by my parents -- they were pretty straight shooters and religion wasn't much of an interesting subject to any of us.

I felt duped by the whole religious enterprise, once I learned though my own study what Christianity - and religion in general, for that matter, was all about.

E Favorite,

I'm sorry to hear that you feel "duped", you're not the first to tell me this. I emphasized "immediate family" in my post above specifically because I have relatives who feel as you do.

Regarding the statement: "your description of trusting your parents reminds me of how believers trust clergy and other religious instructors, and will believe them implicitly without checking other sources, and will tune out any dissonant information."

One big difference, I think, is that my parents never took a "how dare you question the validity of what I say (or The Church says)" approach. They were very much in support of the pursuit of all knowledge. they were also willing to admit they could be mistaken, at times. It didn't happen often, but if I went and collected information that contradicted things they said, they would calmly go over it with me. This is how I got the best lessons in "context" and "preconcieved notions".

More secularly speaking, if I would have asked my Mom what a word meant she'd have said, "Go get the dictionary, and we'll look it up togehther". Often this led to further discussions of etymology, or more usage examples, puns and jokes. It was fun.

Likewise, I think my parents were able to feel more confident, as I got older, to allow me to go to church sponsored functions with friends who were not Catholic. There was no paranoia involved. I had non-Catholic friends who went to K of C events with me, and likewise i went horseback riding, or whatever with their church groups.

I had confidence in what we believed, and my parents were ALWAYS respectful of the beliefs of others.

You posted: "you must have been really nice kids not to spoil the Santa story for other kids."

This sort of went along with my parents' big theme of "consideration of others".

Once, when I was 5 or so, we were leaving a restaurant (rustic, near a lake) with a screen door on a spring. I was last and let the door slam behind me. Well, it hit a lady right in the face. My father grabbed me by the arm (I have NEVER forgotten this) and said, "When you are in public you are NOT alone. There are other people who deserve consideration. Don't ever let me see you let a door close behind you like that without checking for other people first. OK?"

To this day...well, you get the picture. This was a common sentiment of my parents'...empathy, I guess, is the bottom line there.

Danny B – thanks -- you must have been really nice kids not to spoil the Santa story for other kids.

I appreciate your response and explanation about your parents. Bottom line – you trusted them and they proved worthy of your trust.

It’s interesting – your description of trusting your parents reminds me of how believers trust clergy and other religious instructors, and will believe them implicitly without checking other sources, and will tune out any dissonant information.

Also, when you say, “…what fun will it be to inevitably find out you were duped?” it reminds me that that’s how I feel – but more strongly – about being duped about Christian history.

Your parents were obviously honest people, answering your questions until no further answers were possible. What I can’t figure out is how it is that so many otherwise rational, inquisitive and intelligent people will accept supernatural stories that sound like fairy tales on faith.

E Favorite,

I have no problem with your questions. In fact, they are really good ones, interesting.

You posted:

"The general question is: If your parents had presented Jesus to you as pretend, do you think you might have perceived him similar to the way you perceived Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy?"

If they had presented Jesus to me in this way, I definitely would have placed him on a level with my perception of Santa and the Tooth Fairy...just a nice story, but still pretend.

The difference in my (immediate) family was that on matters of faith my parents were quite serious. My father is a convert (Catholics will know what I am getting at there). Santa was pretend, but the eleaborate Nativity Scene in the living room, was the TRUTH of the season. Being Catholic, the SEASON was Advent leading to Christmas.

Also, we attended Catholic school, and often came home with questions and had regular dinner table discussions about faith.

I think that because my parents were more straightforward about even less important things, subjects like "blind faith" (so integral to Christian faith) were more easily believable to us. As difficult as some aspects of Christianty can be to accept, on the other hand I came from the point of view that Mom and Dad say Santa is pretend, the Easter Bunny is pretend, Ghosts and goblins are pretend, Jesus is NOT pretend...would a kid believe it? I did, and so did my sister. I can't speak for everyone, but in my family this is just what happened (right or wrong). Though, I love and admire my parents very much, no matter how "successful" as parents they may, or may not have been.

I have seen parents go to GREAT lengths to maintain their childrens' belief in Santa. I've heard some pretty elaborate stories concocted in response to childrens' question that are clearly leading to them expressing flat out skepticism about it and then having the ruse reinforced.

I feel (though I have no kids of my own) that the minute they are ready to disbelieve something like THAT, they may as well know the WHOLE truth. A cousin of mine said, "But we don't want to spoil the fun yet". I thought, what fun will it be to inevitably find out you were duped? Since I never experienced this particular thing, I don;t know what I would have made of it.

In fact, we were never discourage in questioning, the way children do, down to the point where they would finally have to say, "Some things we have to accept on faith".

One important aspect of this to consider also, is that Catholicism relies a lot on Apostolic tradition, so it is not a case of being required to believe that the Bible is 100% literal, or that it is the sole source of the faith tradition.

In a more secular vein, I was never afraid to ask my parents much of anything. In repeating things heard at school, my parents never gave big dramatic reactions, like, "WHERE did you hear THAT?! OH MY GOD!". Often it was more like, "Well I hope you haven't repeated that. Here's what that means. You don't need to share this, but here's the fact of the matter. We don't believe that way, here's what we believe, but you should not correct someone else's beliefs". Things like that.

Oh...and before I forget...there were times where my mother took us aside before going to visit someone whose kids still believed in Santa, and actually said, "So don't say anything to them about Santa not being real". And by a certain age, it was understood without a warning, of course.

John Griffith (Bright)

Not in Hyde Park. No burning of effigies there, but bonfires and fireworks. Only in smaller gatherings in other towns to the conternation of people like the Baroness.

I see a lot of outrage on what the Baroness said about Halloween.

Reading her essay here, it reminded me of an over-protective and over-anxious grandmother concerned that her grandchildren not be imbued with irrational fears (including of witches) and for their public safety. And yes, on unseemly human excessess such as effigy burning. She's really into social activism and awareness and I took what she said as a reminder to be socially aware and cautious. I have more problems with Cal Thomas and Chuck Colson's posts.

And she's not an American. What foreigners know of Halloween is what we see and experience in a way different from Americans. She's also Jewish. Needless to say, being a non-Christian and non-Pagan like the Baroness, I do emphatise with her in "blundering" into something that we don't quite understand and getting flak for it. Never realised Halloween is such an issue, so to speak, in the States.

As for making, hanging and/or burning effigies, yes, very idiotic. Oh, our passions when young! We did it as students against our then President Suharto to protest the corruption, repression, nepotism and cronyism of his military-led regime. Got into trouble with British authorities but not arrested though. We would have a worst fate if we did that at home then. Suharto is now gone. Thank God.

Thank you and best regards

"J"

Danny B – Your parents were a step ahead, that’s for sure. I have a question – How did you handle Santa with other kids, who’s parents hadn’t told them he was “just pretend?” Were you able not to blurt out what you knew?

It’s funny, looking back on it I realize that I always knew Halloween goblins were pretend – probably because my parents told me. But I believed them when they told me that Santa and the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny were real. I vividly recall when I found out that Santa was pretend (my mean big sister showed me the hidden toys) but have no recollection about the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy. Maybe I figured it out, after the Santa episode.

Danny, I know you’re a liberal Christian, so I think you’re not going to like what I say next, but when I was reading your post, I couldn’t help but think that as a kid, with the kind of parents you had, you could have easily considered the Bible and Jesus to be pretend, if it had been initially presented to you that way. Jesus did extraordinary things too and had a special relationship with children. And perhaps you could have appreciated the Bible stories, even knowing they were pretend.

Now I don’t want to offend you, but if you don’t mind, I’d be grateful if you’d give that some thought and get back to me. The general question is: If your parents had presented Jesus to you as pretend, do you think you might have perceived him similar to the way you perceived Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy?

If you decide you don't want to take this on, no problem -- but I couldn't resist asking.

That Guy Fawkes thing doesn't sound very ecumenical. I mean, faith is faith isn't it? Halloween is faith. Faith must be ecumenical. Are you suggesting Witch Hazel be banned in Brittan? Lots of folks faith her.

We have Guy Fawkes celebrations in New Zealand too, but minus the effigy-burning. Funny, but I don't recall ever hearing about that back home.

Incidentally, is it just me, or are pagans sounding sexier and sexier?

Not to drone on and on and off-topic (whatever that would be here)...but that just reminded me.

One Easter my sister and I agreed that Mom was not hiding the Easter baskets in a way that made them challenging to find. Having forgotten telling her that, the following Easter we got up and couldn't find them ANYWHERE! We were sure she had forgotten them completely.

We went into my parents' room at some ungodly hour and woke them up to tell them. My Mother, half asleep said, "Look in the oven and under your bed, and let us sleep."

Later she reminded us of what we had said the year before.

My parents never maintained the ruse that there REALLY was an Easter Bunny, and yet that is a wonderful childhood memory for both my sister and myself.

Just to share...

The old festival 'old hallow's eve' holds no fear but for members of the christian faith. As it was a celebration of lost family members, folks would leave their doors open so that their spirits could visit their old earthly abodes. My, how the times have changed!
I guess it was around the time Christian's started burning and torturing to clamp down on the old pagan belief systems that the fear came into it.
It is distortions like this that the 'faithful' dont seem to remember.
Looking back, there was a time when the Christians asked the Romans if they could have a date to celebrate thier supposed saviour's Birthday in December. They were refused, so instead hijacked another earlier holiday, (probably around the mid-winter solstice) the 25th of December, to faun over their supposed saviour.

It is a shame to hear the faithful moan about terms like winterval, but using a new harmless phrase is wonderful and civilised compared to the burnings and persecutions of the old church. It would be fantastic if more peope could adopt these new ideas and we can shed the old clouded mantle of religion for good.

E Favorite,

Hey there! You said, "It's the essayist who doesn't want UK kids to celebrate halloween".

That part I got, but the rest (and the reason) kind of confused me.

I was nearly an adult before I ever even HEARD of anyone "against" Halloween.

My parents, in many ways, were very pragmatic. I was never really scared (apart from the fun way) of anything surrounding Halloween because they were there and they explained things very well to us as children. Ghosts and goblins are "pretend".

They were the same way about Santa Claus. He was pretend, but he was FUN! It was fun to pretend. In fact, I can't remember a time when my parents gave the warning that "Santa is watching" that I was unclear that Santa was REALLY Dad, and that Mom did his shopping.

My Dad WAS the Tooth Fairy...but even to pretend was FUN!

You said: "And they won't know about the superstitions and religious overtones unless some spoilsport tells them."

So true!

My mother, who lives in Germany, has informed me that Halloween has made an entrance there as well. We didn't have Halloween when I grew up. Instead we had "Fastnacht", also called "Fashing". I liked that better because it lasts a whole lot longer. Begins on 11/11 at 11:11 pm and ends the day before Ash Wednesday. "Fat Tuesday" is the culmination of "Fastnacht" with lots of parades, street dancing, etc.

If you are interested in more, please see: http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020501a.htm

So I guess you could say that in reality this celebration also has some religious overtones, however, I would bet that no one partaking in Fastnacht nowadays would see it as anything but a secular seasonal celebration.

I don't quite understand why Baroness Neuberger has a problem with Halloween. If you don't want to participate, don't. What you see as a nuisance, others see as fun.

With that, Baroness, I would suggest that you read your fellow panelist's, Starhawk, essays about the occasion. With all due respect, I believe she has a better take on the holiday than you do.

Hi, Danny B -- It's the essayist who doesn't want UK kids to celebrate halloween.

Maybe if she experienced it as a kid, she could relax and just realize that of course kids are going to take to a holiday that involves dressing up and going around gathering free candy. And they won't know about the superstitions and religious overtones unless some spoilsport tells them.

E Favorite,

I couldn't agree more.

I went to Catholic school. I never made a connection between All Saints Day and Halloween either. We often went to a K of C party in addition to Trick or Treating, and we had a Halloween party in school as well.

It has ALWAYS been a secular holiday, as far as I am concerned.

A jack-o-lantern is for scaring away "evil spirits" that don't really exist, and being "scared" is something to laugh about. Besides, picking out your pumpkin is just further excuse for hot cider, fresh donuts, and a hayride at the local cider mill/Christmas tree farm/pumpkin patch.

There was always a great sense of community around the whole event (at least where I grew up). The entire thing was wholesome and FUN!

I hate to be thick about it, but I don't see how the article above either adresses the question, or makes an off-topic point.

I guess I never considered whether or not the UK celebrated Halloween as we do here, but if the people there don't want to adopt the tradition they shouldn't have to.

As far as what it means to me, or what I believe (my opinion only, of course) it should be..the SECULAR Halloween that I know is just GREAT!

Trick or Treat!
Smell my feet!
Gimme somethin' good to eat!

Ditto Lepi and Mr mark.

Now let me see if I can say something original -- When I was a kid, halloween was always considered secular - by the public schools and the church. At school we bobbed for apples and read the Legend of Sleep Hollow featuring Ichabod Crane the scary Headless Horseman. Then at night, we went "halloweening" around the neighborhood.

At church the next day it was a "holy day of obligation" - All Saints day - but no one ever made a connection to Halloween. I didn't find out until much later that it meant "all hallows eve."

As far as I'm concerned, Halloween is the perfect secularized holiday. I can't wait until the same happens with Christmas and Easter -- we're getting there.

**In fact, those artificial inventions do not work, but what might help is real discussion of the origins of Halloween and a concerted effort to get the children- and adults- to understand that the idea of the spirits and witches is not attractive, that pagan festivals of light are fine, but the fear and the superstition is not fine, and that as much as we want children to be able to celebrate and have fun, burning an effigy is deeply unattractive for Guy Fawkes night.**

Rabbi,
If you think that the origins of Halloween have anything to do with the desire to CREATE fear, then you're already way off base. Not to mention that Witches are decent, ordinary people, just like those of any other religion. And the OT has its own accounting of spirits.
As for it being an American import to the UK, Samhain has been around a lot longer than America has.
As for certain aspects being "unattractive," I have major issues with the attractiveness of many aspects of OT Judaism (animal sacrifice, for example, or the idea that a woman is somehow unfit to be in public during her menstrual cycle, or that giving birth to a girl leaves her "unclean" for a longer time than giving birth to a boy), as well as NT Christianity (the whole crucifixion bit and the fact that many Christian churches have 3-D depictions of the event, complete with painted-on bloodstains hanging behind the pulpit, and the very concept of substitutionary atonement).

And that's really by way of saying that the current Fundie fear of Halloween has everything to do with, not Paganism, but in fact, the Protestant fear of 'Papist paganism' ..as in, anything representing any of the cultures they made a point of trying to suppress...

Much in the vein of Guy Fawkes, ... whatever this guy's deal was, someone made a lot of hay about him being a defeated Catholic 'terrorist,'

I find it kind of funny, cause, the topic of a couple weeks ago involved a lot of people who had previously called Pagans 'terrorist sympathizers' for not being fundie Christians.... were accusing Pagans of being by definition subhumans 'who don't know forgiveness...' ...if we weren't willing to stop talking about various abuses...

And here we have someone bringing up Guy Fawkes as an expression of incomprehension why, when it's perfectly OK to burn Catholics in effigy, it's totally incomprehensible why the latest, and far more peaceful people being disenfranchised, might ever want to... watch some Christians carve a pumpkin or something without being accused of Satanism.

Doesn't mean, Your Ladyship, that I wouldn't think the UK would be a much safer place for a modern Pagan like me to be right about now, British tabloids aside, but...

It's not the holiday. Never was. In fact, it's not supposed to be 'a time of fear of spirits' except that some people who wish to condemn others *are looking for an effigy to burn,* even if it happens to be in the form of real people and real lives.

This is mostly the time of year when some American Christians think that treating non-Christians as 'Papists' are treated on the Fifth of November ... is OK. It's their fear of spirits, and goblins, and 'subversives' that it becomes about, though.

Problem is, if you look around this forum enough, you'll see a lot of folks claiming that they have every right to treat living people of different beliefs as effigies.

Happens every year.

And those who say Pagans don't 'forgive,' look at that.

Cause every year, this time, some folks think it's open season. And in trying to get at *us* you *really make this whole time of year not-fun.

Phhhbt.

"For us, it's an American import, and sits uncomfortably with our previously commonplace Guy Fawkes night on November 5, which has a strong anti-Catholic undertone- Guy Fawkes having been one of the so-called Papist plotters of the Gunpowder Plot, who were going to blow up the Houses of Parliament in 1605."

Aww, but for Halloween costumes, I always used to love to try and dress as V from V for Vendetta before they made a major motion picture of it. :)

Just cause I'm not actually a 'Papist' doesn't mean... :)

"They say that there's a broken light
For every heart on Broadway..
They say that life's a game, and then they take the board away...
They give you masks and costumes, and an outline of the story..
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...

In no-longer-pretty cities, there are fingers in the kitties... there are warrants, forms, and chitties, and a jackboot on the stair...

There's sex and death and human grime, in monochrome for one thin dime... At least the trains all run on time, but they don't go anywhere...

Facing their responsibilities either on their backs or on their knees, there are ladies who just simply freeze and dare not turn away...

And the widows that refuse to cry will be dressed in garter and bowtie and be forced to kick their legs up high... In this vicious cabaret...'

And his master in the dark nearby inspects the hands with brutal eye... That have never brushed a lover's thigh, but have squeezed a nation's throat...

There's mischiefs and malarkies... But no queers, or yids or darkies... Within this bastard's carnival..

This vicious cabaret..."

Guy Fawkes? Much after the fashion of my fave comic book character. ;)

Boo. :)

Viejita Del Oeste

Thank you. So, it is just like the flap on the origins of Christmas then.

To fret over such when the joy of celebrating Christmas or Halloween with family and friends is most apparent, regardless of their origins or original purpose.

There are Halloween parties in Asia (and Malaysia) organised and attended by people of all religious persuasions who love to dress up in costumes and have fun doing so.

We never thought of Halloween, or Valentine's Day, as Christian celebrations - only Easter and Christmas. My husband gave me chocolates, flowers and "just us" dinner on Valentine's Day. What do we know.

No doubt both Halloween and Valentine's Day have been so thorougly commercialised and secularised by businesses for the broadest mass appeal that the religious significance and intent of both got drowned.

Best regards as ever.

"J"

Jihadist
It's a Christian version of customs that pre-date Christianity. It appears to me that those Christians who are most afraid and/or dismissive of Halloween as a secular holiday are those who truly worry about their own faith being consumed by some sort of elder deities. Those of us who are comfortable in our own beliefs are neither frightened by Halloween or by sincere devotees of other faiths.

Mr. Mark said, "A day to celebrate superstition? I thought we already has that. It's called Sunday."

Don't forget Christmas and Easter.

A day to celebrate superstition?

I thought we already has that. It's called Sunday.

Baroness

Welcome back. Always nice to read a non-American perspective here among the deluge of American views for a change:)

Frankly, I am confused from reading other On Faith's panelists' essays as to whether Halloween is Christian or pagan in origin. Not that it matter to millions who celebrate it with joy all dressed up for Halloween costume parties and children going for trick or treat.

I enjoyed the Guy Fawkes Nights when I was a student in UK - fireworks and all. The burning of the effigy and bonfires doth keep us warm in fact. As righteous, pompous students who think we know everything, make everything right, want to save and change the world, we were always making, hanging or burning effigies of people we don't like in protest against them - a futile and non-productive form of protest obviously.

Best regards as always

"J"