Jesus Was Inspirational Jewish Teacher

Saying that "jesus" brought worldwar 2 and crusades, is nothing but foolish. Man Brought it upon themself's, Jesus had nothing to do with it. God gave man a free will, And man abuse that freedome now more than ever. Just couse something in the world is terrible terrible wrong, Dosent mean that God made it that way, Humans made it that way

Jesus is the Son of God, the Saviour of all humanity, and the only way to salvation, as decreed by the Father in Heaven.

There is only one way to obtain this confirmation and testimony, and Paul said it very clearly;

==1 Cor. 12: 3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.==

It is only by the Holy Ghost, by the inspiration given by him, by personal revelation, can any person obtain a true testimony and witness that Jesus is the Lord. This is not done by belief, or by theleogy, or by study, or by any human mortal effort alone, but only by sincere prayer to the Father seeking this testimony of Jesus Christ.

A person can debate, argue, study, research all they want, for the rest of their life and will not find this straight forward, clear and concise confirmation that Jesus is the Lord, unless they bow to their knees in humble and sincere prayer asking the Father in heaven for that confirmation.

This is faith.

What has come to exist instead, is such a contradictory and hypocritical manner in many people is that on one hand they proclaim God is real and alive and answers prayers, but when it comes to asking that same God about Jesus Christ, they deny the very same beliefs about God and prayer.

Such confusion is not of God, neither taught of God, be it in the Old or New Testament, but taught by the devil himself, and such confused beliefs are a carry over of the great apostasy.

If a person is determined to believe that sincere and humble prayer will not avail anything, then they have nothing, because what I speak of is true Faith.

Disbelieve me?

I will say here that I have obtained that revelation by the Holy Ghost, giving to me that spiritual testimony, witness and confirmation from the Lord Jesus Christ himself, that he is the Saviour and only by and through him can we be saved.

Amen

Getting back to the topic:

Professor Crossan with great throughness examined all the existing scriptural writings from the first and second centuries AD/CE. If you do not have his 505 page book, The Historical Jesus, see http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf.

Using these documents plus the conclusions of the major NT exegetes in the past two hundred years, he compared Jesus' reported acts and sayings to when they were reported and how many reports were made. Those acts and sayings with single or later attestations along with the current biblical scholarship negativity, were judged not to be done or said by the historical Jesus. Approximately 67% of the NT was judged to be in that category, i.e. embellishments of the facts typically made to compete with the "Caesar", "Alexander" and Egyptian gods. See http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

Use this latter site to analyze your NT references for "Crossan" acceptance, e.g. Matt 1:23
26±. Jesus Virginally Conceived: (1) Gos. Heb. 1; (2) Matt 1:18-25; (3) Luke 1:26-38; (4a) Ign. Eph. 7:2; (4b) Ign. Eph. 18:2a; (4c) Ign. Eph. 19:1; (4d) Ign. Smyrn. 1:1b., was judged to be not from the historical Jesus but of theological importance.

These same passages also are in direct conflict with (!5a) John 6:42
(!5b) John 7:40-44
(!5c) John 8:39-41
(!5d) John 8:56-58
(!6) Luke 2:27,33,41,48

where Joseph is reported to be the father of Jesus.

"In Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography (2000), Bruce Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circumstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural paternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus' life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus' self-identity, his concept of God and his spiritual quest."

"John P,Meier [Marginal Jew I,220-22] discusses the virginal conception as part of his larger chapter on Jesus' origins. He earlier notes that both infancy narratives "seem to be largely the product of Christian reflection on the salvific meaning of Jesus Christ in the light of OT prophecies (p. 213). At the end of his examination, Meier concludes:

The ends result of this survey must remain meager and disappointing to both defenders and opponents of the doctrine of the virginal conception. Taken by itself, historical-critical research simply does not have the sources and tools available to reach a final decision on the historicity of the virginal conception as narrated by Matthew and Luke. One's acceptance or rejection of the doctrine will be largely influenced by one's own philosophical and theological presuppositions, as well as the weight one gives to Church teaching."

Bramelton:

You state that "It's sad that Patrick devoted so much time to a post that is filled with absurdity. The idea that someone can't believe in something without seeing it proved out first is the most ridiculous comment I've read yet. I feel sorry for you and what you're missing.

Christ charges me to share the Gospel with you. Period. Whether or not you accept it is your choice. Truly a lost soul who can only see the obvious."

I think that most people can indeed believe in some things without having them proven before their very eyes. However, we generally have several requirements that must be met before we will accept something as true under those circumstances: For example, if someone else tells me that they saw a particular event happen, and I have substantial experience with that person and believe they are trustworthy, then I may believe them. This is what juries do when they convict someone of a crime based on the testimony of a witness - they have decided that the witness is trustworthy. Most people believe in atoms, although we cannot see them, because atomic theory gives predictions (about chemical reactions, etc.) that can be verified empirically. Children will also believe things about the world that their parents tell them are true. Children are probably biologically programmed to do this - they have no experience of the world and must rely on their parents while they are young. Many conservative religions (including conservative Christians) rely on this mechanism to inculcate beliefs in children that have little actual proof in the real world. The inculcation of some children in the Islamic world that they will get many virgins in Paradise if they blow themselves up is a good example of this. If children were exposed to all religions but not required to make up their minds about anything until they were adults, we would probably have many fewer conservative Christians and Muslims in the world.

The problem in believing the traditional Christian story (without seeing it oneself) is that a) there are many other religions that are just as old as Chistianity that give alternative views of the world; b) there is almost no external evidence (i.e., outside of the Bible) that the basic story of Jesus is true; c) we have plenty of experience with minor events in history getting changed to become major religious narratives - one only need look at the cargo cults in the South Pacific that developed after World War II. After seeing military planes that delivered cargo, some of the natives developed elaborate belief systems, which included beliefs that a (white) messiah from the United States would come someday to save them. Thus, I have little personal trust that the ancients who developed the stories that ultimately entered the Scriptural canon didn't change or alter real events to reflect their own beliefs and superstitions.

Frankly, to be FULLY convinced that the basic claims of conservative Christianity are completely true I would need one of the following: 1) A strong consensus among historians and archeologists that the core points of the Gospel are absolutely true. No such consensus currently exists. 2) I would need to personally experience some type of supernatural experience that told me that the Gospel is absolutely true (and you would need to convince me I wasn't having a psychotic delusion). 3) Someone I knew very, very well had such an experience. 4) Some sort of miraculous event showing that the Gospel was true occurred and was widely seen and very carefully documented. 5) The Bible made a very specific prediction (ie., X major event (too big to be made to happen by humans) is going to happen on January 1, 2009). If that event then did occur, that might be pretty convincing. However, I see no such predictions in the Bible.

Frankly, Bramelton, the reason you are a (conservative) Christian is probably because you were raised in it, and took in these beliefs as a child who was easily swayed. You stay in a strict conservative culture that does not allow you to question these beliefs or demand real evidence, so you keep these beliefs. Finally, you believe because you want to - you're afraid of going to Hell if you don't. Again, see my earlier comments on Pascal's Wager.

I should note that even in the traditional Christian story there were those who demanded evidence: Paul persecuted Christians until he experienced a direct miracle. One Apostle ("Doubting" Thomas) demanded evidence from the resurrected Jesus that he was the real thing. Jesus gave him the evidence.

I notice, Bramelton, that you seem to need to use emotionally loaded words ("sad", "absurd", "ridiculous") in place of logical arguments. My experience is that people who do this do it because they have no real logical argument to make. How about giving me a real logical argument instead of questioning my motivations or calling me names? It can be done, you know.

Martian,

You state:

"That is the nicest piece in the whole blog with regard to the main topic. But the material view is not that superficial any more, i.e. acquiring of wealth and power, etc. The geneticists are digging deep and one day soon they maybe able to replicate living things at will, body parts, plants, animals, humans... It would make the religious view, the sophisticated one, not the Bible says it that settles it for me view, much harder to defend."

Thanks for the compliment. Your idea that modern science is revealing a great deal about the world is undoubtedly correct. The Theory of Evolution posits that organisms that exist today have undergone a selective process through natural selection that makes them competitive in their current environment today. If they are not competitive in a given environment, they will not survive to pass on their genes to the next generation. Viewed in this way, a drive to acquire wealth and power makes total sense, because this wealth and power will help an individual who has it to reproduce more successfully (ever wonder why women tend to be attracted to powerful men?). This is why I have problems with Jesus's command to love your neighbor as yourself. I don't think that most humans are capable of that, and are not biologically programmed to do so. Instead, we are programmed to do what gets our genes into the next generation: Look for sex, care for our spouse (who may help us get our genes into the next generation), care for our children (who are the next generation). We also tend to care for close relatives because they carry some of our genes. We care for our general group (society) because it is in our interest to do so: our group can help us out when we are in need. However, we don't want to be cheated in our interactions with unrelated people - for anything we give, we want to get back something equivalent in return. This is, in fact, the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Seen from a biological perspective, conservative Christianity makes total sense - it gives its adherents a very strong sense of group, which can give them a big survival advantage (as long as one doesn't actually give all of one's possessions away to the poor, which a large majority of conservative Christians don't do). That doesn't mean that its doctrines are factually correct - they don't need to be to help their adherents survive. There are a number of reports now documenting that members of religious communities are healthier and live longer lives.

However, I must caution you somewhat about the potential limits of the scientific method. Even if modern science were able to clone humans or human body parts (actually, I think that we're almost there), I don't think that that will make Fundamentalism go away. Also, there may be questions that the scientific method will never be able to answer. Take the issue of consciousness, for example. We may or may not be able to figure out what that really is.

However, we have several world religions that have explored the nature of consciousness extensively: Buddhism and some forms of Hinduism, such as Advaita Vedanta. I find these religions to be quite appealing, for several reasons: First, they do not generally demand blind belief in religious propositions that have little external evidence to support them, as Christianity does. As religious communities, they may hold a general belief in things like reincarnation; however, you are not generally required to believe in these things to participate in the community. Instead, the emphasis is on practice (meditation, etc.). Using these practices, you can become more aware of how consciousness works. Second, these practices can have great benefit for your health. I recently attended an introductory class in Buddhist Vipassana meditation. As a part of the class, an M.D. psychiatrist presented studies showing that people who perform this type of meditation regularly lose considerably fewer brain cells as a consequence of aging. Some Zen practioners report feeling wonderful all the time once they have practiced a while. Sounds pretty good to me. Third, you can actually cultivate particular virtues, such as compassion. Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, but didn't really tell us how to do this. It can be very hard to do. If someone has deliberately hurt us, we generally want revenge. Look at conservative Christians on their support of the death penalty (in spite of Jesus's admonition to Peter to forgive your neighbor up to "seventy times seven times"). These people want revenge (and understandably so, from a human perspective). Imagine being able to, through meditation, cultivate a mental state in which you could truly forgive those who hurt you.

Fourth, Advaita Vedanta, at least, seems to hold that all religions are just different paths to the same goal. You may remain a Christian and practice Vedanta, using Christ as a figure in your meditation. You can also engage in some Buddhist meditation practices while remaining a Christian - some Buddhist leaders are quite OK with this.

Advaita Vedanta, to me, in fact, solves Pascal's Wager, at least to some extent: I am not being asked to commit to anything by blind belief. The spiritual practices give me health and stress reduction benefits (even if all of the religious beliefs are completely false). I can generate a sense of peacefulness that can help generate peacefulness in those around me, and is thus good for society. I can even continue in a basic committment to the Christian way, and thus keep my salvation if Christ really is the Savior.

Just some more musings.

To reiterate:

The problem is that we are told that Jesus was the Son of God by the human authors of Scripture but with proper human analyses the passages that indicate there is a link have been found to be embellishments. God being God does not need humans to communicate through. The fact that there are so many differences in NT scripture is enough to conclude that God is not involved in recording the events 2000 years ago.

For added thought, here is what JD Crossan has to say about atonement theology: (from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

It's sad that Patrick devoted so much time to a post that is filled with absurdity. The idea that someone can't believe in something without seeing it proved out first is the most ridiculous comment I've read yet. I feel sorry for you and what you're missing.

Christ charges me to share the Gospel with you. Period. Whether or not you accept it is your choice. Truly a lost soul who can only see the obvious.

Old Jew,

As a martian, hence a goyim, I have always wondered about the Jewish mind, about its brilliance, its cleverness, its cunning. About its use of symmetry on such a grand historical scale such as God's sacrifice of his Son to balance, no to one up, Abraham's readiness to sacrifice his. About Jesus fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah after a thousand years. About whether it is a blessing or a curse to the human race.

Now I know it's a joke, in the best tradition ala Seinfeld. Testament comes from holding on to your testes when you testify? Brilliant! The Greek gods swear their oath by water, hence the Christian baptism. But holding on to your balls? That makes absolute sense! What is more dear to the human species, the male side anyway?

The joke is on the goyims eh? Two billion of them! Almost four if you count the Muslims.

Patrick,

That is the nicest piece in the whole blog with regard to the main topic. But the material view is not that superficial any more, i.e. acquiring of wealth and power, etc. The geneticists are digging deep and one day soon they maybe able to replicate living things at will, body parts, plants, animals, humans... It would make the religious view, the sophisticated one, not the Bible says it that settles it for me view, much harder to defend.

As for Pascal's wager, as a hedge it's almost a cheat. That would get you through the Pope or even Peter. The real Jesus would spot that one from a mile away.

Historical Jesus studies have been afoot for only about 200 years. Before that the lack of education and communication in the global world prevented a thorough review of this fellow Jesus so called son of God.

Blind faith based on the musings of a few elderly gentlemen of the first and second century CE, and promulgated by a few "elite", white male Europeans is no longer acceptable. Please review the following before making any more judgments.

1. Historical Jesus Theories, (from Google) -- the names of most of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books on the subject.

2. Early Christian Writings, (from Google)
-- a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication

3. Historical Jesus Studies, (from Google)-- "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"

4. Jesus Database, (from Google)--"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."

5. Josephus on Jesus (from Google)

6. The Jesus Seminar, (from Google)

7. Writing the New Testament- (from Google)

Well, in Acts 2:22 Peter was supposed to have said: you that are Israelites, listen to what I have to say: Jesus the Nazorene, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as yourselves know-"
Here it is implied that Jesus did not do it but God almighty did the miracles through him. Again in John 5:30 we read:"I can do nohing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31" if I testify about myself, my testimony is not true." Just listen to what he had to say not some other preacher. Also, in John 5:44 we read: "How can you believe when you accept glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the one WHO ALONE IS GOD?"
Actually when we examine his words we see Jesus is trying to redirect all our attetion and worship towards the one who sent him. I think it is idolatrous to pray to Jesus and worship him when in actuality Jesus himself prayed to God as it is written in the synoptic gospels...

As far as the title son of God is concerned, we have to be careful. We have to read in the context of his jewish milieu. Isreal is called the son of God along with David and a lot of other people. Just read the OT.
In John 10:31 we read : The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?" 33 The Jews answered, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God." 34 Jesus answered, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called 'gods' — and the scripture cannot be annulled — 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father." 39 Then they tried to arrest him again, but he escaped from their hands." So the jews accused him of blasphemy calling himself the son of God, but Jesus sidestepped their allegations and explained to them that other people were called gods in their scriptures and that they should not object to him calling himself the son of God. It's a spiritual title nothing more.

Julia's description of Jesus is not inconsistent with what Jesus probably said about himself. I distinguish the message of Jesus (in history, such as we have it) from the words that were placed in his mouth, for example by the writer of the Gospel of John. These came considerably later and were, as I take them, "parables about Jesus" - as Dom Crossan explains elsewhere.

In the same spirit, I think you can understand "divinity" as a special status that we give to transcendant personalities. (This was how the Roman emperors seemed to get themselves deified.) Jesus was Jesus. It has been his followers, down to the present day, who give him divine status. In this way, it is perfectly possible to declare with Paul that "Jesus is Lord."

The essence of the Christian story is the crucifixion and resurrection, along with Jesus' teachings. The resurrection of Jesus can be understood as the first step towards the general resurrection and establishment of the Kingdom. The historical details of this story are unknowable. Much of it also may be parable about Jesus, but clearly it was the "good news" of the earliest Christians.

These (admittedly unorthodox) views may make for better dialog with Jews and Muslims. We do not have to debate historically who Jesus was or how many supernatural events happened. Christianity is the profound theological interpretation that has been given to Jesus' life and work. Jews and Muslims have other interpretations.

When Jesus lived on earth He used divine power to performed miracles intended to prove He was the son of God.

Every day when I look in the mirror and see the changes in me and my life since, I surrendered it to Jesus Christ, I see another of His miracles.

Jesus still performs miracles today and that is proof enough for me.

All I can say about Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection is to read what he said before Pilot. He supposed to have said: "My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be FIGHTING to keep me from being handed over to the jews." John 18:36.
Now, why would Jesus say that if he knew he had to die for the sins of man like a lot of people woud like to have us believe?

As I’ve been reading the thread I have a few thoughts and questions.
“Jesus wasn't supposed to defend himself from being crucified. If Jesus didn't get crucified, then he would not have been resurrected. The Resurrection is one of the critical foundations of the Christian faith. ”

So any other form of death would not allow for a resurrection He had to be crucified? He couldn't have drunk hemlock or taken and even greater hand in his own death or its time and method? Is there a prophesy about crucifixion? If not wouldn’t the Christian religion created it’s foundation on some other aspect of Christ’s love?

“a Jew who was critical of the orthodoxy of his day......So all the critics of that era had 12 Apostles??”

I don't remember any prophesy about 12 apostles can someone help me with why this is important?

“In regards to Ms. Neuberger's comments, I think C.S. Lewis said it best: "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about him being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Quite honestly think the only person he hasn’t left the option of viewing Jesus as a great human teacher open to is CS Lewis. Nothing in Lewis’s statement precludes one from thinking of Jesus as a great teacher any more than it would actually engage me to believe that there is only room for a man to be be a lord and God, or a demon to be spit upon. There’s a bit of faulty logic at work here. The world isn’t black and white like his view is even if Jesus fails to be the son of god that doesn’t automatically cast him as a demon.

“Jesus was(probably) a Middle eastern man who (probably) lived some 20 centuries ago and developed a following in his time. Since then his followers have had unending disagreements about what he really said, what he really meant by what he said, and whether he really was resurrected and was the son of God. Anybody who wasn't there doesn't really know any of these things, and all of you believe what you want. Don't see how any meaningful discourse can occur here, and I've been looking for some since the feature started.”

I do have to agree with this statement at least to the point that we don’t know what was really said including if Jesus ever claimed to be the messiah or if that was added later. Too that end I don’t know how we can argue about who said what without going to source outside the bible and seeing if the phrases appear repeatedly and trying to create a set of sayings

Funny, but I don't feel evicerated.

First off, I think you've got access to Rules About Doll Houses that isn't widely published.

Who said that they can't have working plumbing? And who said they had to have hinges? (That's your choice). A perfectly good doll house could be created that replicates a normally-sized house in every respect (including WiFi). Doesn't have to be too small. If it were 99 percent the size of a real house, wouldn't it be a "model?" Could not a full-scale house be built with hinges?
You're talking about red-herrings, not models.
The only difference between our doll house and your house is scale.

I don't think you've every seen a model airplane. They have engines, which use fuel and fly very nicely. When the military or industry use them, they are called drones.

I didn't know that terrorist-utility was a requirement of airplane design.

You clearly and deliberately misstated my idea. I did not say that models "need not" be as complex. I said that models could and were as complex, but built on a different scale.

The word "scale" doesn't appear in your eviceration at all. You've wondered off point.

Atom models are more problematical. But they're working on them in the lab. Or, given from what you've written, I suppose we ought to reconsider why we're doing subatomic research.

I get all the jazz from Bertrand Russell, but you're talking about something else all together.

Yes, it impossible to perfectly model the thing. The original post basically said that because that is true we shouldn't try at all.

That isn't what Russell said at all. He said go ahead, try to model, learn what you can. You can model something with accuracy approaching replication but not fully achieve it. There are pardoxes and limits you should be aware of, he said.

He didn't say don't try at all.

Bob,

You state: "What if Jesus is real? Note the present tense.
If he is not real then the christians are no worse off than anyone else. They die the end.
Once again, what if that is not the end of the story?"

As someone else in this Forum noted, this is Pascal's Wager. The idea is that I should believe in Christ because I have nothing to lose if he is not real, and everything to lose if he is. There are several problems with Pascal's Wager:

1) What does it mean to believe? Frankly, one believes something is true based on evidence. If you tell me I must believe something or I am going to Hell forever, and yet you present no convincing evidence for the actual truth of what you want me to believe, how can I possibly believe? I can SAY I believe, but do I believe? I can go to church and say the creeds, but without convincing evidence that they are true, do I really believe? Do you think an omniscient God would not know what I really believe? Of course, I could COMMIT to the Christian way, and agree to live as Christ preached, even without any evidence, but does this make me a believer? Many conservative Christians would say no.

2) There are competing religions that also say that I must believe THEIR way or I am going to Hell. However, their way may be incompatible with the Christian way. For example, Islam believes that Christ was only a prophet, but not the Son of God. Many Muslims thus believe that Christianity contains a heresy, and, at least some believe that Christians will go to Hell when they die because of this heresy. Thus, if my goal in choosing a faith is only based on avoiding Hell, which religion should I choose?

Many conservative Christians who use Pascal's Wager to try to scare people into accepting Jesus are in fact Protestant Evangelicals or Fundamentalists. They should consider how Pascal's Wager applies to them: The Roman Catholic Church claims that masturbation and artificial birth control are intrinsically evil. Evangelical Protestants generally do not agree, and most practice artificial birth control. If I understand Roman Catholic teaching correctly (please correct me if I do not), repeatedly and unrepentantly engaging in something that intrinsically evil is a serious sin, and will result, if unconfessed, in a person's going to Hell. Thus, using the logic of Pascal's Wager, to avoid the possibility of being wrong and going to Hell,
Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants should avoid masturbation and artificial birth control, just to hedge their bets that the Roman Catholic Church might be right on this.

3) I personally have problems believing that a (Christian) God would sentence an individual to Hell forever for essentially making an honest mistake, and a mistake that would be easy to make, too, given the competing religions that are out there, and the absence of compelling EXTERNAL evidence (OUTSIDE of the Christian Bible itself) that the traditional Christian message is factually true. If there is a God, I suspect that, though he might well punish people for their sins, that punishment would not last indefinitely, and that there is some mechanism by which people can leave Hell. Hinduism provides this with its doctrine of reincarnation. Zoastrianism, one of the world's oldest religions, also holds that people will eventually be released from Hell.

4) Personally, I don't want to come to God because of fear; I would rather come to God because of love.

Here is what I think what most people in the world do: We appear to be faced with two obvious view of the world. The first view is the material one. This view is the one that is most obviously true to our senses. According to this, the world we see is the only one that is real. When we die, we are dead. Therefore, we should behave in a material way to protect ourselves while we are alive. We should attempt to acquire wealth and power, since these will protect us and also allow us to enjoy life more fully. Sex is one of life's great pleasures and so we engage in it a lot, sometimes licitly, sometimes illicitly.

The second world view is the spiritual one - the idea that there is more to life than the material world, and that we might survive our own deaths. We hope for this, and we also fear this (ending up in Hell, etc.). This view also gives us comfort in our current material life if things aren't going too well, and helps relieve our anxiety about the future.

My opinion is that, in truth, most people, consciously or not, hedge their bets. They try to obtain power, wealth, etc., while also professing a belief in God (and, indeed, genuinely believing in God to some extent). Because they do believe in God a bit, they try to do some charitable works. However, most will never live up to the strict core beliefs of their religion, because they don't have enough evidence that the religious view is actually true, and there are potential negative consequences for them in the material world if they live up to the core beliefs of their religion too strictly. Looking at the Christian Gospels, it seems to obvious to me that if one were truly and completely convinced that the message of Jesus were true, one would sell all of one's possessions and become an itinerant beggar, preaching the Gospel, and helping the poor. However, for many of us, the material view of the world remains very strong, and we have, in the back of our heads, at least, the idea that if we gave away all of our possessions we would be poor. It's not very nice to be poor in our society; people don't treat you very well. It would be much more enjoyable to have material wealth.

My sense is that religious liberals and liberal Christians are much more honest with themselves about what is really motivating them than the conservatives are. Liberals will much more readily admit that they are torn between the two world views. Conservatives, on the other hand, remain in denial, preaching a strict Gospel of personal conversion, and saying they really mean it. However, I think that deep down many of them have the same doubts that the liberals have, but that they just can't admit it (certainly not openly, because their church might then kick them out). Look at how so many (although not all) American Evangelicals actually behave: They acquire riches, power, and material goods. They are extremely patriotic, and, many essentially claim that the United States is God's gift to the world. Frankly, the United States is a powerful nation, with all of the material benefits that that entails. Many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are as tempted by the material view of the world as anybody else, and so try to justify keeping all that power. I wish that they would just be more honest: they're not entirely sure that the spiritual view of the world is entirely true, so they hedge their bets like anyone else. It's easy enough to go about PREACHING the Gospel; that doesn't necessarily cost you that much money. It's much harder to give all you have to the poor, because you would then be poor, and maybe not treated that well.

Just my musings on how things really are.

I think it would be appropriate now to paraphrase that cook in an early 3 Stooges flick where the water is coming out of the stove; "Dis place sho gone crazy!"

IT'S THE CONSCIOUSNESS, NOT THE MAN. It matters not whether a person accepts the man, Jesus. It matters not whether a person accepts the man, Mohammed. Neither does it matter whether a person accepts the Buddha or Gandhi. What matters of utmost importance is CONSCIOUSNESS. Jesus stated he was ONE WITH GOD because he had the CONSCIOUSNESS OF GOD---LOVE TOWARD THE ALL. This consciousness was ONE WITH GOD because it was the CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH LOVES THE ALL. Jews and Christians have, for centuries, had the erroneous belief in the superiority of their "faith". THIS IS NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER, NOT GOD CONSCIOUSNESS. THE MESSIAH IS NOT A MAN---IT IS A CONSCIOUSNESS. IT IS THE CONSCIOUSNESS THAT LOVES THE ALL. The ego consciousness excludes, separates, divides and considers itself superior. This is what is wrong with formal religion. It excludes, divides, separates and distinguishes by positioning its superiority over "other". Judaism had this elitist and exclusive consciousness and Christianity absorbed that into its formal religion. Islam has also done the same. This consciousness is not the consciousness of God. It is the consciousness of the EGO. Every religion is merely one path to the same ultimate, ineffable goal and each religion has different rituals to express their understanding of what is ultimately ineffable and unutterable. The primary problem with the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths is that certain populations within these religions don't get it---THE MESSIAH IS A CONSCIOUSNESS, NOT A MAN. So Rabbi Neuberger need not accept Jesus, the man, but God help her if she doesn't understand that THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF JESUS is the CONSCIOUSNESS OF GOD---LOVE FOR ALL. It is the same consciousness of Hillel, of Gandhi, of Buddha, of Mohammed. AND IT IS A DIVINE CONSCIOUSNESS BECAUSE IT IS THE CONSCIOUSNESS THAT LOVES THE ALL. All the rituals and 'laws' don't amount to a hill of beans if a person cannot fathom and comprehend this essential truth. If people in all formal religions are unable to IMBUE THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE TOWARD ALL, then we are all doomed on this planet and the ego consciousness of those people within the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths who want to argue, bicker, debate, disagree, fight and kill "the other" in order to make the point that they are the 'SUPERIOR' religion, will be the death of us all.

I can't decide which is worse:

1)Rabbi Neuberger's choice of a topic (Rabbi, how about something relevant to living one's life as a decent human-being rather than starting a debate over Jesus' divinity)

or

2)The robotic ramblings of immature Christians who have a world view and a concept of god at the level of a 3 year old.

David

As a Muslim I revere Jesus as one of our prophets. As a matter of fact Mohammad (pbuh) came to conclude the monoethism chain of faiths of Judaism and Christianity. We only do not accept Judaism's 'chosen people' version and Christianity's 'god's son' version. We believe all people are born equal and we also believe God or Allah does not need a son. At 70, when I look back I find Islam propagating oneness of God from beginning to the end

1) If it was God's plan that Jesus die to redeem the sins of mankind,
why did God then instigate the elimination of the Jewish Christ-killers but not the Roman Christ-killers, both of whom were part of the plan (since God plans everything)?

2) History shows that when Christians talk about loving their fellow man, they generally mean fellow Christians. Except for those interruptions when Catholics and Protestants are killing each other.
Or for those times when God is angry with heretics, Catholics are killing other Catholics, or Protestants are killing other Protestants.

The best source we have to learn about the significance and nature of Jesus Christ is the Bible.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17

After seeking all over, over many years (15 to be more precise) I was glad to accept the truth of the salvation offered by Christ through His gospel. I have truly been blessed and can testify to the fulfillment of Christ's promise:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30

I only hope that I can, through my actions and life, along with my words, be worthy of what is asked of me :

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship." - Romans 12:1

Peace and love to all you seekers of truth.

Mario:

so you've never heard of missionaries? And why is it only Christians that should help others? Athiests and Agnostics are excused from this?

Dear Ms. Stein,

Thank you for your post. In reference to
WWJD?

He probably would have made whatever he needed from kitchen tap water. :)

I think that you acted in a very Christian manner. You could have rightfully escalated the matter and involved store management. Was there even a human cashier, or was check out completely automated? Personally, I believe that the Golden Rule applies to others, and I take it as fact that they are acting in accordance to it. That does not always work well, and the anger is not reduced in any event. May God Bless you as you go in Peace and Understanding. Regards

Old Jew:

New testament - tall tale? Lets think this through. Jewish men (who prayed they weren't born women) telling tales about a man who was resurrected and found by a woman. Yeah, that is a tall one. What else - oh yeah, he came to just save our souls, not to save the Jews from the Romans. Another really tall one. Oh, and one other - he died for everyone's sin. Somehow that is the most unbelieveable from jewish standpoint.

DNA, proteins, cells, organisms, the eco system, solar energy

Hmm, all created by mere chance, or by God.
Jesus just happened to have a better idea of what mankind could be, or just maybe, He was who he said he was.

I did not know that Dick Cheney was abused by Jesus as a youngster.

As an old jewish man I know how my friends and I like to tell stories, some of which are exaggerated or outright made-up-tales.(Zadie micers). The bible had to have been written by old Jewish men. Even the so-called New Testament. Even the name testament is a joke because before swearing on the bible was invented as a way to give an oath of truth, men used to hold their testes to show that they were telling the truth.Anyhow, only those who think tales told by old Jewish men are all true can truly say they believe the stories in the bible. Paul, an old Jewish man(Sollie from Tarsus) got the Goyim to join the sect by not making them get circumcized and letting them keep eating pig. His goal was to undermine the Roman Empire. It worked.Unfortunately many of the Roman's sucessors continued the Roman hatred of the Jews. So all Paul's planning went for naught.

Well, lets put this to the test. We are told in the New Testament that whatever we ask of God the Father in the Name of Jesus will be given us. Simple enough. Try it.

If you pray to God in the morning and ask for something in the Name of Jesus, then you will recieve it or you will not.

If you recieve it, you are now a de facto believer. If you do not recieve it, you do not have to be. Fair enough?

Nobody knows. Faith means you pick a path in the darkness. Belief means you reject all paths other than the one chosen. Let us not separate ourselves from one another by our beliefs. That would be breaking faith with one another. That would leave us not only in the dark, but alone.

JESUS WAS GOD!!

God is a metaphor?

Merry Christmas to the Christ deniers.

Martian, Neoplatonist Dave, Mario, Bob, Non-Darwin

It has been a pleasure, but a lady (even a mathematician) needs her rest. Good night, ye merry gentlemen.

lady.mathematician@gmail.com

Martian, Mathematician.. you've made my brain hurt and I love you for it! :) Thanks!

Lekha,
The last thing I read on this was the last sentence you typed, what stood out the most is: "...among all the churches in his (Christ's) name, not even one of them even remotely comes close to the essence of Jesus Christ."

Thank you.

I wish more so-called "Christians" would really learn his teachings and go out into the world and use their influence to make this a better world for EVERYONE not just those that agree with their warped view of what it means to be faithful or even "Christian".

Good night everyone and Happy Holidays.

why are the nonbelievers angry? maybe it's not personal problems, as some smug poster said, but because they see billions of people believing in fairytales ...running their lives, and going to war for a lot of lies that are no more real than the pagan gods... and our hard-earned tax money going to support 'faith-based initiatives' in violation of the law... and a single cell held to be more important than research to save lives... and on and on.

while i'm at it, you christians should realize you're not in jesus' church, but paul's. without paul and his opening the thing up to non-jews, it would have died a quick death as a minor jewish sect. along with paul's gift you get his personal problems: misogamy, homophobia, wide-ranging guilt, disgust with sex. And you're welcome to it all. enjoy.

The available documents would suggest that Jesus did see himself as something special, and that Jesus did see himself as a messianic figure. His close followers had an almost fanatical loyalty to him, and clearly, Jesus was seen as a threat to the local powers of the day, the Jewish elders who ran the local area with tepid support from the Roman overlords.

I am suspicious that Jesus was a "teacher of Judaism", as Ms. Neuberger calls him, as Jesus seemed to have his own direction concerning religious practices and conversion to acceptance which was not in line with Judaic customs. If you believe in the overall authenticity of the Gospels of Judas, Jesus seemed to have high aspirations as to his future in the after life, and actually commanded Judas to turn Jesus in, so that Jesus could ascend to the next level, so to speak.

One of the reasons that Christianity took off fairly quickly, over time, was that it was very popular with the extremely poor (most people) and did not have onerous requirements to be accepted into the fold, whereas Judaism was heavily into bloodlines and custom. Eventually the Romans co-opted the movement as their own, and the movement took off in a big way.

Jesus is Jesus and God is God,It seems many people believe they are the same and pray to Jesus but Jesus himself said people should only pray to God.

Now we are getting there. DNA, proteins, cells, organisms, the eco system, solar energy, ... i.e. the whole, System Science, Systemics. Union is not enough of a concept. The whole is much more than the sum of the parts.

You won't find a better discussion on the subject than Aristotle's Metaphysics, he called it First Philosophy actually. And the man wrote it 24 centuries ago! Russel does not hold a candle to the man. None of the modern logicians do.

Only in today's environment can a post about Jesus & Judaism turn into opportunities for folks to display their Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

Thank you, Martian

DNA is absolutely not a 1-1 mapping. That's why it is DNA, and not another organism. DNA is not the organism, it is the code. The organism is the union of the proteins encoded by the DNA, and the environment upon which these proteins are expressed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I saw you quoting Darwin before. DNA is just nature... there's also nurture.

Ah but the DNA molecules help replicate life everywhere. It sure as heck is not a 1 to 1 mapping to the organism. So where did the rest of the organism come from?

i completely agree with your view.

i was born and raised a catholic in india and i was extremely religious and a very devout catholic until i was teenager. then i started questioning a lot of things including virgin mary and resurrection to the chagrin of my extremely religious-everyday-rosary-reciting parents.

i have an uncle and a few cousins who talked to me about the 'Last tempation of christ' among other things.

but everything came into sharp focus when i read 'Benhur' when i was in college. to me it looked like a highly controversial book and put everything into perspective. jesus christ dared to go against the system and the politicians created an atmosphere to persecute him and ironically the romans who persecuted him later became the bearers of his torch so to speak.

there was a time when i read the bible not to memorise it, but to understand it. i am not religious anymore, but Jesus christ would always be an influential role-model in my life. the reality that he was human only increased my admiration for this powerful historical figure.

to me jesus christ was way ahead of his times and a visionary, albeit misguided probably, because to an enslaved isralies liberation from the Romans was a bigger priority than the 'kingdom of god.'

he was a political victim like anyone else during any other period and he was so far left that he makes today's liberals looks like neo-cons.

the only thing that makes me sad is that among all the churches in his name not even one of them even remotely comes close to essence of jesus christ.

lekha

In love how positive everyone is that they know the abslolute truth. The fact of the matter is noone really knows the truth. They only have ideas and beliefs. A wise person knows that he doesn't know anything and takes even his beliefs with a grain of salt. The world would be a much better place if more people were like that.

Martian,
in response to your first question: I use a mac.
But watch me employ your friend's, Aristotle's, teacher to help me...

Dear Doll house boy, Estes, I have a simple multi-part answer to your model question. First, stay with me while I eviscerate your argument.
Your hypothesis seems to be that models need not be as complex as the subject they model in order to be comprehensively valid and accurate.
By the Socratic method, we shall test that hypothesis in order to prove it or disprove it.

1) Doll houses
While doll houses may accurately represent the basic structure of actual houses, they do not have internal plumbing connected to a city-wide network, electricity, wi-fi capabilities or actual living inhabitants. Thus, these houses are not made to withstand daily internal use. Not to mention having hinges that open them for children to play, which, if I'm not mistaken, are lacking in actual houses. By contradiction, your first piece of supporting evidence disproves your theory.

2) Atom
Structural representations of atoms may give structural insight into atomic and molecular structures. However, atom "models" do not give an accurate representation of electric and magnetic properties, or any insight into nuclear interactions of neutrons and protons. In addition, atom models do not display the existence of quarks. By contradiction, your second piece of supporting evidence disproves your theory.

3) Airplanes
"Model" airplanes cannot actually carry human beings from one place to another. They do not require fuel, and cannot be used as terrorist weapons. By contradiction, your third piece of supporting evidence disproves your theory.

QED^3

These examples may be compartmentaly accurate, but in order to be globally comprehensive of the behavior you are trying to model, you would need a model of the complexity, or "order" you are trying to model.

Still with me?
Models, as described in the Principia Mathematica, by Russell, are 1 to 1 mappings. In order to accurately represent, with predictive accuracy, all aspects of the subject being modeled, this process must be bijective, and not injective. Therefore, if any information is compromised in the mapping, the model is inherently flawed, and therefore no longer accurately predicts any and all possible outcomes. If there is a true 1 to 1 mapping, then you have the subject itself, and the model is irrelevant and dispensable.

In short, you cannot "winzip" things into models.

Martian,
anything to add?

Dave,
I gave you more than an hour to respond. Martian is on a VERY different time-zone, and he's (do Martians have gender, or have you evolved from that?) on the ball... Very disapointing.

Genio... So now you can look into the hearts of others and know what is there? Isn't that reserved for God? You sound young so you will no doubt outgrow this tendency. As far as everyone here, as well as you dear Genio, we are all limited beings. But we all try. I think the secret is realizing that none of us really know anything.

Anyone who uses their intellect to ponder the world or their faith to guide their steps through it are worthy of respect. We falter only when we come to regard our incomplete knowledge as THE TRUTH and thus use it as a weapon against others.

I believe in Triune God!
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God of Almighty!
Jesus was crucified by those who do not believe in
God.
The little Lamb of God who carried away all sins of the world!

When He will come again on the set upon a time,
only Heavenly God knows for which time,,
no longer as a suffering agent, but with a mighty
sword!!

Jesus was a man who realized his innate divine nature, much as any other spiritually "enlightened" human individual has.

If you "go within," to seek the "kingdom of God" (God-consciousness), as Jesus taught, you will discover and realize your true spiritual and divine nature.

I would like to say why the three Ls: Jesus was a liar, lunatic or lord. Why can't he be who he said he was. He said:"for I have not spoken on my own, but the father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak." John 12:49. He came to deliver a message from his superior; in the language of the Jew he was a prophet from God. As far as the blood atonement, that's Paul's invention. I doesn't make sense at all and it goes against the teaching of Jesus himself. If you want to know how to be on the good side of God, read what Jesus himself had to say about that not what a nut case, dillusional Paul preached. Most christians follow and prefer the teaching of Paul rather than Jesus' because he teaches cheap and easy salvation.

None of you love one another. You're all liars and haters. (With the exception of Meridian, who wrote with care and thought.)

Yikes! There are OTHER Daves here! that's what I get for having a common name... I'm the one quoting Voltaire among others and not the one spouting Biblical quotations and the like... So I will henceforth be known as Neoplatonist Dave. No confusion there I hope.

Can't quote Gödel, a bit out of my area Mathematician ... so no love for me... But I can do Euclid! Anyone for creating a perfect triangle from the intersection of two circles? ... Thought not...

I'm the one to talk to if you want to know more about το εν or πλωτινος.

One hint though... we Neoplatonists are at the root of most modern religions and science. So from where I sit sectarian arguments and violence is pretty useless.

Ah the earthling mathematician's holy trinity of Godel, Newton and Bohr!

Listen how come all your Godel's theorems have yet to help you build a simple so called operating system that does not need to be rebooted three times an earth day? That is defenseless against a simple viral attack? How is your species gonna build a ship, a self regulating, self correcting, self supporting ship that will get you out of the solar system? Let alone sail across the Alpha Quadrant? Your predicate logic and your category theory? Don't be silly.

Systemics by earth friend. Until you do grasp it you don't stand a chance out here. Your guy Aristotle got a glimpse of it. Barely a glimpse but it's a start.

As for all these religious discussions, once you get out here get to the Vulcan Central Library further down the Orion arm, they got an excellent archive of video recordings of everything that happens on your earth since the day your kind trekked out of the Serengeti. It's fascinating watching. Moses, Jesus, etc., are all on it. We of course are more interested in the Martian videos.

To those who keep quoting C.S. Lewis:

What you're quoting is a logical fallacy, the False Dilema. To say that Jesus was Either the savior or a liar or a madman is no different, in terms of argument, than "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists."

Maybe Jesus was the son of god, maybe he was a class-A con-man, maybe he was mentally ill, maybe he was a poetically-gifted speaker, maybe he was misquoted. Maybe he never existed; no archaeological or historical evidence has been found of his life, only accounts written decades after his alleged death. We have stories about Paul Bunyan, but can anyone find his ax? Until you've disproven every other possibility, the Either SoG or Madman dichotomy is false, as is the rest of the so-called logic that Lewis presents.

Note: I'm not saying if god does or doesn't exist, or if Jesus was really his son, only that the logic here is flawed. Sometimes seeing is believing, but sometimes believing is seeing, and logic has no part in it. I don't think the facts of jesus' life matter so much as the teachings attributed to him: love your neighbor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, play with the children, build a new, better life.

a lot of stupidity here...

B-Man:
Obviously you don't have a Personal Relationship with the Pink Unicorns. When their magical horns glow, and the Pink Light from Mars shines down on me, I feel the Sacred Love in my ... heart.

I believe in peanut butter.

John Lennon sums up my thoughts for all those middle eastern religions. Enjoy your holidays but try not to take it all too seriously, OK? Just see if you can avoid killing each other for a couple of weeks. For those who can manage that little trick I think "God" will find a way not to send them to hell regardless of what they believe or don't believe.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today…

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

Most Sundays I go to my local Catholic Church. I think that the bible is a fascinating book and that some of its lessons contain insightful wisdom (e.g. as ye sow so shall ye reap etc). I do not believe: that it is sacred, that it was given to us by God, that Jesus is the son of God, that he rose from the dead or that he performed miracles (magic?).

I do believe that man made God in his own image, that Jesus was the son of a man and a mother who was not a virgin after he was conceived.

Nevertheless, I admire his teachings and I like the sense of community that my Church provides. However, would you love to hear honest and controversial debates about the existence of Jesus and God and the aims of those who wrote the books that constitute the bible? Do we avoid intellectualising the debate? Are we are reliant on platitudes and ritual to prop us up? If so, why?

I also don't believe that the Jews are God's chosen people. (Is this another heresy?)

I think that a true notion of God, if he/she exists, has been smothered by our willingness to create fictions which we regard as more attractive than the simplest explanations of religious events and religious historical figures.

Robert (in Sydney)

Julia believes Jesus was just a really nice Jew. The Jews are still waiting for a Messiah. Don't you think he would have come by now Julia? Can't you put two and two together? Is Jesus just a random coincidence?

Now the Jews believe that the "Messiah" is human collectivity (totally in denial about Jesus), and that people can usher in the salvation of the world by just doing good deeds. So, it is not surprising Julia does not believe Jesus was/is God, because the Jews no longer believe in God at all. They have reduced themselves to a religion that practices meaningless rituals, kind of like that collection of old VHS tapes we all have lying around, just doing nothing. What's the point Julia?

Jesus was nothing more and nothing less than a great philosopher like Socrates, although he did not entirely reject his Jewish upbringing. Jesus didn't die to "save us from our sins," but because he was sentenced to death and executed by the Roman establishment at the urging of a small number of Jews who were Roman toadeaters. The Disciples invented their versions of the savior and resurrection myths to explain why a good man had died, and why people should continue to follow Jesus' philosophical (and religious) teachings even though Jesus' beliefs had not saved him from death. The Disciples could not accept a triumph of "might makes right" over Jesus' message of goodness, and they saw a pronouncement of Jesus' immortality as the only way to avoid this.

For the model dude:

>"All human models of reality cannot be reliable because in order to model the universe the model would need to be as large and complex as the universe itself."

You every seen a doll house?

I mean, they can make little furniture that is just like big furniture in every respect.

If models had to be "as large and complex as" their source material, every hobby shop in the world would have to close.

What about models of atoms?

Seems to me, any model of an atom big enough for you to use has to be made of many atoms. Does a model of an atom have to be as "small and as simple" as an atom?

A model of an airplane flies by the same principles as a big one. There is only one difference: scale.

By definition, a model is as complex as the thing itself, but built on a scale a human can work with.

I know you were talking about philosophical models, but the principles are precisely the same as model houses, airplanes and atoms.

Humans make great models. All they have to know is how a thing works. Some models are flawed because there are limits on what we know, but those flaws in the models give us information about how to build a better model. (Ah, it must fit like this!)

We haven't built the perfect model of the universe (or of the atom, for that matter), yet. But we're working on it. The universe has been going for a long time, we ought to at least have that long to work on the problem of modeling it.

This whole notion that Christianity is nothing more than a peace loving, tolerant of everyone, hippy loving religion is a joke. Here's an idea. Try reading the Bible. How tolerant of the Egyptians was God during the Passover? What about Babel? Think they felt God's love and compassion? Deuteronomy 10 states, "You shall FEAR the Lord your God". Why would I have anything to fear if God was only a God of love?

This argument that those outside of a certain faith can't comment on another faith is very weak. Faith or the absence of faith is about personally-held beliefs. We all have beliefs and we all are able to form views of beliefs we do not hold. Since religious beliefs aren't provable, and aren't rigor-based, commentary both by those inside and outside the realm can be equally valid. Though, of course, those of deep faith will often bristle at comments contrary to the faith they hold. If they are comments with which those of the faith disagree, they'd like them to be less valid if they are made by someone outside the faith -- but, that's not the case.

Dear "Darwin is an idiot,"

I congratulate you if for nothing else than to highlight that brevity is the key to good communication. To hell with reason and supporting evidence!

Darwin is an idiot

Most dearest Martian,
I follow none but 3 masters: 1) Godel, 2) Newton (especially the alchemy crap), and 3) Bohr. They are the only ones who eventually understood that understanding is foolish.

1) You are correct that my studies are perhaps incomplete. Incompleteness is my middle name, hence the Godel idolatry (yes folks, I did say idolatry)... His 3 theorems make him king.

2) I believe in actual physics, and not the meta-semiotics of your friend Aris. Thus, Newton. His meandering failure into alchemic chemistry were, agreed, peripatetic at best. As his giving up makes him my master.

3) When told that "God does not play dice with the universe" by a sad and wilted man, Bohr replied: "Stop telling God what to do" (and I do say so myself, how appropriate a quote that is to our topic of discussion). As a mathematician, if I believe not in probabilities, I catersianly disappear... And, everyone knows it is foolish to attempt a determnistic understanding of QM.

You can judge the validity of a religion by determining the one core thought of that religion. The one core thought of Christianity is sacrificial love, i.e. the cross. As I study the religions and philosophies of this world I see nothing that even comes close to the truth of sacrificial love taught by Jesus. This confirms to me the divinity of Christ.

While I feel it is good to express our views, I've noticed personal attacks against Christians here, but not vice versa. Let's remember this forum is a device to express our views, not impose them on others.
For myself, I am glad to know my Lord Jesus, as He's changed my life.

I hope the Post will allow a Chirsitian to write an Opinion on Judaism and also allow a Muslim to write on Judaism on this so called Faith blog

This is an interesting discussion. I've always held that Jesus's mission was not to tell us that he was somehow uniquely the son of God, but that we all are. That he, like the rest of us, is a divine manifestation of God's love.

I agree with Rabbi Neuberger that he was a great teacher who was scornful of the orthodoxy of his day - as, incidentally, I am with the orthodoxy of my day.

I find it difficult to trust the bible, because it was in the hands of power-hungry catholics for eight hundred years, who had every opportunity (and reason) to alter it to suit their world view.

Were it not a great tragedy, it would be amusing to me that the neocons who cynically insert their fire-and-brimstone brand of christiantity into contemporary politics have failed utterly to learn the greatest lessons that the Christ brought, which are compassion and love. They use their religion as a wedge between people - a divider, if you will, not a uniter.

I can only imagine that if Jesus is aware of the great evil being done in his name today, he must weep tears more bitter than he did in Gethsemane.

However, I'm also gratified to see that people who actually practice Christianity in today's world are waking up to the importance of stewardship of God's earth, and tolerance of their fellow man. They understand Christ's words "Judge not, lest ye be judged," and they understand why Jesus alerted us to the folly of the over-pious Pharisees.

When people realize that God very much wants to stop suffering then wars and violence will stop. It is mankind’s rejection of God’s Love and guidance that causes all suffering.

What was the point of this article?

It would be only be newsworthy if a rabbi believed otherwise.

Meanwhile, some of the comments are truly bizarre and deserve a brief response:

1. As Christian scholars are the first to acknowledge, objective, verifiable knowledge of the "historical" Jesus is limited. In any case, whether he was the messiah, was born of a virgin, rose from the dead, was the son of God, etc., is a matter of faith and could never be objectively verified. That's why religious tolerance -- and religious freedom -- are so important. These are matters that can never be resolved and must be left to the belief and conscience of every individual. The intolerance in many of these posts, not to mention the unseemly certainty about matters concerning which no one can be certain, is disturbing.

2. Using quotations from the Bible to "prove" a point as objectively true is just silly. To the religious person, the Bible is persuasive, but to the non-believer, it's just another book with unverifiable author(s). In other words, you can't prove an assertion simply by repeating it, especially on matters that ultimately must be articles of faith. The Bible can no more "prove" that Jesus was the Messiah than any other book can prove he was not.

3. One poster suggested that combining the Old and New Testaments into a single book is a sly (and recent) Jewish trick to gain acceptance from gullible Christians. As luck would have it, the Bible exhibit currently at the Sackler Gallery demonstrates exactly the opposite. Sometime before 1000 A.D., the first Christian codex to combine the Old and New Testament was produced. Such books were rare, however, given the difficulty of producing them given the technology of the time, and seem primarily have been intended for display rather than actual use -- they were simply too large and cumbersome. By contrast, at no time in their history have Jews ever incorporated the New Testament into the Bible (which Jews do not refer to as the Old Testament, since we do not believe it has been superseded or augmented).

4. It is true, as one poster commented, that the gospels were written some time after the crucifixion, but not 300 years later. The current dating of the four Gospels, accepted by the biblical establishment, which includes scholars of every persuasion, is: Mark 65-70; Matthew and Luke in the 80s; John in the 90s. Some Christians argue for slightly earlier dates, or suggest that these "final" gospels were based on earlier drafts, but no one would claim they were written 300 years later. It is also true that there were additional books -- and a Gospel of Thomas -- that were written at various times but which were ultimately considered heresies and not included in the Christian canon.

5. People who reject the divinity of Jesus are not rejecting God, and it is unnecessary -- and offensive -- to accuse them of doing so. They may be rejecting your concept of God, just as you reject theirs.

6. I won't get into the unresolveable debate about Jesus's own beliefs or teachings, but Christian scholars agree that early Christians were deeply divided about whether it was necessary first to convert to Judaism in order to be a Christian. Those who argued that it was made the point that the whole messiah prophesy only made sense in the larger context of Jewish belief. But others, most notably Paul, argued for a more universal approach in which acceptance of Jesus as savior supplanted the myriad (and to a great degree ethnocentric) requirements of traditional Jewish practice (in particular circumcision and the dietary laws, which had been an obstacle to proseletyzing). A major meeting was held amolng the early Christians in Jerusalem some time in the First Century (around 60 C.E.) and the Pauline view won out. From that point on, Christianity was a separate religion rather than a sect within Judaism.

Blessed are the lame ... or, is that the meek and aren't we being unkind to those who are lame?

I hate this "Jesus was an inspirational Jewish teacher" b.s. And yes, the Baroness' post is lame. Possibly even lamer than Sally Quinn's egotistical musings. Seriously, is this the best the Post can offer on the subject of faith?

Jesus was a son of God. Not the only one! He knew that you and I and every human being is God's offspring, and he tried to help people figure this out.
In other words, Jesus was an enlightened being; Jesus was a Buddha...

Great! This must be what Hell is truly like, if it existed.

A towering Babel of narrow-minded verbal diarrhea splattering across the "Comments" section. So mnay opinions, so full of themselves.

Thanks, Sally Quinn and John Meacham, for opening the spigots on the septic tank -- especially the crackpot who uses every message thread to hype his so-called Bible hoax buster site. Dangerous what a little B.S. (pun intended) from Murray State, of all places, can do (yeah, that's "Yest You", with your self-promoting, self-absorbed twitterings --- yecch!).

Damn, I feel the need for a shower just to wash off the stench of self-righteousness wafting off these posts.

To "Anonymous" way back up the string who claims the Jews and Muslims are out of control: try being a mind-your-own-business Iraqi in the midst of the American occupation for a new perspective on "out of control." Or try the George Bush White House, where the top guy claims he receives directives from God. Listen to Fundamentalist/Creationist rants about evolution. Just who did you say is out of control, Anonymous?

Who are Jews waiting for?

Merry Christmas to all!

T: I am sorry for that comment. I heard that line a long time ago, and today was the first opportunity I ever had to use it. That was uncalled for, and I am sorry.

I do beleive I am correct that the gospels were the New Testiment was begun before 100AD. I believe the entire NT was finished well before 200AD.

Nevertheless, it was written much sooner to the events it describes than many fully accepted historical accounts of other events.

oops, I mean humankind.

FACT: Jesus will outlive everyone. Darwin is dead, Science cannot save humanity from ..death..deal with it..

Outside of human delution there exist absolutely no proof of gods or anything else above human beings.We make our own gods out of our own minds and stupidity.Grow up.... We are all there is...period.When we are dead we cease to exist.

I think you should get your money back

GDB:

I assure you that all my facts are correct; I spent four years in grad school studying this subject. It is you who needs to go check them.

Earth Mathematician,

That is all you know about Aristotle? A teacher of peripatetic fools? You must read more my earth friend. Granted he was a man of his time and hence his scientific conclusions were mostly wrong. But his reasonings, his inquiries, ... no there is no greater mind among the humans. Even your Darwin said so, all the others were mere schoolboys compared to old Aris he said.

Where has all the latest modern logic got you? All rolled up in a ball? Read old Aris's "Metaphysics", despite the now misnomer, still the first and only great treatise on System Science. Your education is incomplete until you grasp it. Incomplete.

Jesus was an alien. A spaceship abducted Mary and artificially inseminated her so it appeared to Joseph as a virgin birth which raised the question what was wrong with Joseph that he had been married to Mary for a while and she was still a virgin. Jesus had good alien powers that dazzled everyone and scared the hypocritical high priests who had him crucified. All this doesn't matter through because Jesus was the best teacher the world has ever seen. Maybe if more of these so called "religious" experts and blowhards read Jesus' words, they could lead their flocks down a better path than the present one of exclusion, intolerance and arrogance.

Jamie: Please do some research, I thinkyou will find most scholors agree the New Testiment was written well before the date you propose. Further, more supporting documents exist for the Bible than any other writing, and it is 99%+ accurate, with errors being of no material impact

Some people have been critisizing the old testament, while others have been calling jews and muslims out of control. Frankly, if you really want to go there, be my guest. All I have to say though is that if you had to write a descriptive story that happened in the 1700s that would be the basis of your religion, having no other resources besides word of mouth today, how accurate do you believe the story would be.

The new testament started to be written almost 300 years after Jesus.

I wonder what messiah the Jews are waiting for? What is that Messiah supposed to do now? The temple is no longer there as Jesus predicted would happen. No more animal sacrifices either..The Jews are no longer under Roman oppression. So if not Jesus, who are the Jews waiting for?? Doesn't the world need a messiah assuming that all the current bull cannot go on? What is the Jewish answer to the World's problems? Is there a different messiah for the non-Jews and a different one for the Jews?

Fact: The Bible is the best selling book in all of history, it has prophecies that no other book has. It is the only book that speaks accurately of what happened, what is happening and what will happen. It is the most significant book in terms of history and anything else. Its concepts and teachings have changed civilizations for the better and ofcourse there were those who misused it. There were those who misused Science also, so does it mean Science is invlaid? Science has no answer to pain or death or evil. All the money you have is not going to stop you from fear or calamity or death and you can hate Jesus and the Bible as much as you want, that does not change what the Bible has already foretold - this Planet is going to be destroyed and restored. You can choose which side you will be on..What is the argument against Jesus? Christians have shown to be the best friends to the Jewish state, do you know why? There are always the nut cases ofcourse, that is why the Bible says 'all have sinned and come short' ...

Evil that humankind says it does in the name of God is still evil, but all it says about God is that God created humankind with free choice. Throughout history this has been true (I think of the crusades, the inquisition, modern terrorism for only a few examples) and is still true. This does not mean that those actions are actually representative of God and God's way, but they are a result of humankind seeking an excuse for their own lusts for treasure, self, power and control at all costs. This is not what Jesus taught, nor is it the Way the Bible and other holy books teach. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. Jesus is the Son of God...I know because we have met and I personally have known His love. The miracle of miracles is this love. The only one who can speak for God is God, working with love in the hearts and minds of mankind.

Dear Baroness,

I apologize for the ignorant, loutish and hateful sentiments that many have expressed so far. We seem to be having a problem with that lately in the USA. Sorry again.

Avraam

completely off topic; just gotta vent:

Just returned from the grocery store where I selected the two items I needed -- 5#sugar, 2# coffee -- and went to the express checkout. The lady at the end of the line had 27 items in her cart. I mentioned to her in my most polite voice that the sign said 8 items only.
She said, you've got no business meddling, that's what got us into Iraq, meddling in other people's business.
An ardent C Span viewer, I've learned that one should ALWAYS respond by agreeing with your interlocuter, so I agreed with the woman that Iraq was meddling in other people's business, but, I suggested, this instance was about the rules, and the rule was, 8 items in the express lane. She had another 50 reasons why I was wrong.
She was still ranting, and still in the express lane, when I put the sugar and coffee back on the shelf and left the store.
Mad.
And without enough sugar for the brandied peaches.
I hate when that happens.

WWJD?
Would he do something different if he were divine than if just human?
If I had needed sugar for divinity fudge, would Jesus have intervened?

Two things to consider:

Infinte means without boundary or end. If God is infinite, then we are all part of God. If we are not part of God then God would not be infinite for He would end where we begin. If we are part of God, then why do we need to be saved? This is like saying that God needs to be saved. We cannot be born into orginial sin for that means God is that sin. There cannot be a heaven and hell apart from God since that would mean that God would end where heaven and hell began. So heaven and hell are part of God. If so, what does this mean to be damned to hell? To one part of God?

The Bible says that Adam and Eve ate an apple and hence all people are born into original sin. The Bible also says that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil. So how can Adam and Eve be held accountable for an action when they had no basis for understanding that the action is wrong. PArents do not condemn babies for doing bad things because they understand that babies do not no the wrongness of what they do. Our society does not punish those who are incapable of understanding their actions, even if they commit crimes. To paraphrase Jesus, "if we who are evil do not punish those who do not understand that they have done wrong, then how much more forgiving would God who is good be?" Even if Adam and Eve did wrong, why should the rest of humanity suffer? We didn't eat the apple. Why should we be born into original sin. If we who are evil wouldn't punish people who did not commit the crime, why would God (and since half the world's population is not Christian, there are billions of people condemned to hell according to the Christian belief for a crime they did not commit). Finally, if God is all knowing, why did He not intervene and stop Adam and Eve from eating the apple, knowing full well that billions of people would burn in hell for it? What parent puts out a bottle of poison, tells the children not to drink it and then watches an evil person tries to tempt the children to drink the poison without intervening. If we who are evil would not do this, then why would God?

In many ways I agree. Many frauds are trying to make a buck off of religion. I know that and so does God. You know the parable of the tares? The true church is full of false christians, and God new that would happen all along.

RELIGIOUS WARFARE:

YOU'RE BASICALLY KILLING EACH OTHER
TO SEE WHO HAS THE BETTER
IMAGINARY FRIEND.

--Daniel Dannett
Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon.

I'm a radical follower of Jesus, but I think His message his been bastardized, politisized, proselytized and homogenized beyond recognition in the United States.

I am quite sure that
he was Jewish, - define your term!
a wonderful teacher of Judaism, - revolutionary?
a great and inspiring leader, - peasant martyrs?
and profoundly human, - celibate, genius, perfect?

I know you'd guys would love to have rational foundations for your faith, but faith, by definition is irrational. To seek pseudo-scientific rationalizations for your faith serves only to demean it, not promote it.

Aristotle is but a teacher of peripatetic fools. The science of the universal essence of that which is actual is not the science of logic. Dear Martian, you are correct, and I must now fall out of love.

Walter: May I ask what you do beleive with regards to the Christian Faith?

Frozen,
I thawd your post was so important and necessary that I took the liberty of repeating it.

Frozen1:

QUOTE a Jew who was critical of the orthodoxy of his day, and of the power play indulged in by many of Judaism's leaders UNQUOTE. Rabbi, I am a Christian, and I thank you for your lessons today. I most respectfully suggest to you that we need more jewish teachers like Jesus to counter the destabilizing, irresponsible influence of those like Irving Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and the rest of the pseudo-cons. I use the prefix "pseudo" instead of "neo" because I do not consider them to be conservatives at all. The more I learn of them, the more I see them as neo-fascists. Their adaptations are only skin deep. Social camouflage. The more I see the fruits of their labors, the more I start to understand the demented justifications of Hitler and that vision screams against all that I have been taught to love and cherish in this life.
Fourteen characteristics of Fascism:
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause:
4.) Supremacy of the Military:
5.) Rampant Sexism:
6.) Controlled Mass Media:
7.) Obsession with National Security:
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined:
9.) Corporate Power is Protected:
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed:
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts:
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment:
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption:
14.) Fraudulent Elections:
Regardless of your views on the true origins of Jesus, I think we can agree that this type of societal corruption in the United States is NOT the work of God. As the United States has helped the Jewish people rid themselves of Fascist oppression and genocide under Hitler's final solution, I cry out to you Rabbi and to all Jewish people of good faith to help the United States NOW in one of Her greatest, and gravest times of need. I fear we can not do it alone.

May God Bless you.

Rodinfan: I'm sorry I think perhaps you speak to broadly. I beleive you will find most Christians beleive because they have personally looked into the matter. Outside of perhaps the Catholic Church there isn't much "passing down" of the belief. Have you personally investigated Jesus independently? I would respectfully ask that you do, I think you might find it interesting. May I suggest a couple of web sites

www.levitt.com

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/

I find it somewhat odd that washingtonpost.com would choose a rabbi to write an article on "Who Was Jesus?" So next week, are we going to have a Catholic priest write an article entitled, "Who Was Mohammed?" You basically give the member of one faith the opportunity to rebut the claims of another faith. She has the right to do it, it just seems out of place in this context.

Earth Mathematician,

Don't fall in love so easily. You must first see the proof and be able to follow the reasonings. Sequencing the codes so to speak.

2007 is the year. You will see. Bertie, Frege, Cantor, Godel all make mistakes. Your man Aristotle is one of a kind however. Even here on Mars we study him carefully.

I'm still wondering if you'd give a knife to someone who has claimed they have talked to God and that God told them to kill their son.

My Martian, My Martian, why hast thou forsaken me?

The writers of the New Testament did their best to build a case for who Jesus is and was. Their methodology does require some belief, of course, since their "givens" were theologically based--prophecies and prior beliefs about God. Yet if you accept their premises, then you are indeed left with a very solid case that Jesus was God, the Messiah, and the savior, built up of arguments from numerous witnesses. The writers of the New Testament were, like Jesus himself, either rational, logical men who had discovered the truth and honestly expressed it, or fantatical madmen. I believe they proved their case as well as it could be proven, and that Jesus is God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Walter: Then you know that Abraham verbally talked to and heard God. If you feel Abraham didn't do these things why not? If God is God, why can't he talk to someone?

As a Jew, my reasons for not believing Jesus was the son of God are as unfounded as any Christians believing that he is. It's what we have been taught by people before us. But if your religion is what personally helps guide you through life, then stick with it and love it for yourself. I'd be a Christian too if that's what my grandparents had been. But whatever is the name, we all strive to live life by a higher guidance. Be happy with what you have found for you.

Funny I was thinking about this question on the way to work today and did not know there would be a fun cross talk on it! I was thinking that it is more important for me to understand my own relationship to G than it is to understand Jesus'. J did say we are all sons of god and urged us to refer to him as our father in ehaven. That must mean we are in some essential way related, and while i suspect J to be what Paul calls firstborn or John calls teh Word, we are called as j said not to be disciples but firends, brothers, all of us...What this means to me is that if J can help and serve as mediator or even avatar or inner light, wonderful, i'll take all the help I can get, but of cuorse he counseled us that if we want to get to him we'd best be about serving the less fortunate, the poor, the sick, the aged, the captive...as you do it unto the least of these, you do it unto me...and when two or three of you gather in my name [in faith] there i will be in the midst of you...so two things are clear to me (1) it is all a lot simpler than we make it (consider the lilies of the field how they neither toil nor spin yet solomon in all his glory was not arrayed as one of these), and (2) way beyond human [or any rational] understanding [how, for example infinite patterns and universes and then infinite alternatives of each, can all be "planned" -- it defies not only human but all understanding, for it all works perfectly, you see "in the end"....one other thing is clear, J [and God] likes to play around wwith this identity stuff, just as the greatest shall serve the least, the greatest shall be found in the least suspected places, and ways...hence the beatitudes, blessed are the meek, they who mourn, etc, for they are ones who find Him, the One, the I am Presence (teh nonlocal singularity)(who defies all locality adn all division equally)

remember what he said -- if you knew me you would know him who sent me

teh one who sends and the one who is sent are not the same, and yet they are one

physicists are joyfully embracing the meta-speak or meta-physical mustardseed nature of God/reality, and so are finding the Tao everywhere

Jesus was a Taoist

and the son

adn so are you

brother

be patient

help in humility this groaning world

merry christmas

:)

Jesus was one of the greatest prophets of god, not his son. He was not a Jew but was from the people of Israel whom god picked for many centuries to spread his word. Jesus was the last of the people of Israel picked however not the last prophet on earth.

Jesus had eyes to see, ears to hear and a mouth to eat and sustain himself. God does not need any of these. He IS the sustainer.

Gary,

I know the story of Abraham. Abraham only "knew" what he was doing because he had complete faith in God. But there was no rational basis for this faith. It's like a lunatic in an insane asylum saying he "knows" he is Napolean.

If someone came up to you and ask you to borrow a knife so that he could kill his son, because God told him to and he had complete faith in God, would you give that person the knife?

Walter: Actually Abraham knew exactly what he was doing. God would have had to bring Issac back to life because God had promised Issac would be the father of a many nations. Abraham would have killed his son, because he trusted got and it was credit to him as rightousness. Also, you should give Issac some credit too...he was probably 20 or so years old. He could have easily refused to be a sacrafice... Abraham was an old man. This story is a parallel between God offering his own son as a sacrafice...it is a fortelling of the story of Christ. Parallels like this are all throughout the Old Testiment. Thought you like to know this.

"Beliefs" can have a rational or an irrational basis. You are trying to conflate the true notion of faith by mixing it up with beliefs, as a whole. But that's not right. Faith consists of those irrational beliefs, only.

GDB, you don't have to leave; however, you must remember how you speak to others when you speak of your religion and you must be careful not to come accross as better or holier than thou because some of us will take offense to that.

Let me tell you about my view re: Christianity. I am mixed Mayan and Spaniard, my Mayan ancestors were captured, tortured and forced into submission to Christianity.. not by choice but by brute force. Is this what Christ would have done? In Mexico, donations for the poor are collected every day and 15% of that collection is sent up to the vatican.. why? Isn't the gold that was shipped to the Vatican during the spanish inquisition and the conversion of the Mayan and Aztec civilizations enough? Why do they continue to demand a portion of what's collected from people who already don't have any money particulary when that money is to be used to promote acts of kindness like, feeding the hungry and homeless, and providing shelter and care for the homeless and the sick?

In the US, the baptist pastors don't work, instead they get a portion of what's collected from their congregation.. why? How is it that there are homeless sleeping on the streets, hungry and homeless children, sick people, elderly with no one to care for them.. yet these pastors ride around town driving the latest lincoln town car and living in extravagantly furnished homes? Why?

There is a lot going on that's wrong with Christianity, yet I don't blame the faith itself but rather the way the organized religion is being handled. The entire message of true Christianity has been hijacked and is now been warped into this nonesense of "you're going to hell unless you do this, this and this..." yet those who are preaching these things are doing things that go completely against Christianity and it's unifying message of peace, love and good will to all mankind.

"Faith is taking action based on your beliefs."

Faith is taking action when your beliefs have no grounding in the rational world.

It's the fundamental tenet of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and started with Abraham and his leap of faith to kill his son because he heard God's voice to tell him to do it. There was no rational "belief" involved, just an irrational acceptance of God.

No one "Posseses" the truth, we're only "Pursuing" it.

When you die, you will find out what the reality after death is. For now, this is reality folks.

-Himanshu

Earthling Dave,

"Tell me some more about your race. Does removing this gene to pacify your people do anything to creativity?"

We are not the only ones who do it. The Vulcans do it too. You think they get rid of their emotions through self control alone? Don't believe everything space aliens tell you. Snip snip my earth friend.

"Do you think God wants people that have no free will, that love Him without choice. Do you have love on Mars? I don't think love can exist without confrontation. I means seriously, if everyone loves everyone, is it love?"

What do you think happens in your post Armageddon version of Kingdom of Heaven? Pure love and bliss earthling! Pure love and bliss! Of course that would mean you would be bored stiff after a while also. But you all ask for it.

"Wait, that would mean you are God. I guess that does make sense since you fool around with DNA."

You should see what your governments do with DNA in their own labs. Granted still very primitive by our standard but they do know some sh*t as you say. Snip snip cut cut. A little glue here a little enzymes there... and there you go the perfect soldier, the perfect fighting machine, the perfect terrorist hunter. Why do you think your man is calling for a bigger army without the need for a draft?

:)

Walter: I hadn't clicked off yet, and saw your post come up. Faith is taking action based on your beliefs. I sit in a chair because I have faith it will hold me. I have faith in Jesus Christ because I believe in him and "Christianity". Faith comes from belief, not the other way around.

Man, that GDB, what a buzz kill. Now that he's gone, who's down for an orgy, worshipping an idol, and possibly sacrificing a virgin afterwards.

Did Baroness Neuberger send this in from her Blackberry? I haven't read all the "On Faith" contributions, but hers has so little substance that I don't understand the point of it or how to argue one way or the other.

"I should know better, but I jumped in anyway."

That's why it's called "faith" eh?

I'mm going to leave this conversation now. I suppose I haven't made any friends, and some folks may have been insulted. If so, I am sorry. I did not intend to do that.

One problem with discussions like these is the parties disagree on the underlying premise, then try to argue secondary points. What I mean is this...

If we were discussing the good and bad of George W. Bush's Presidency, we'd have the same underlying premise: He is the President. However, if one of us disagreed that he was President, we have no starting piont to discuss what's good and/or bad.

In order for this discussion to work, both sides need to put a stake in the ground and go from there. In other words: Start the conversation with... Say Jesus is God....then.....the conversation flows from there. Or take the opposite.

Unfortunately, one said say's "I beleive" and the other "I don't". Really, the conversation ends there.

I should know better, but I jumped in anyway.

Good Day to you all.

Which brings up the question: what is the role of religion in our lives?

Christianity in America has turned into something of a joke as it is chiefly a tool to reach other goals: to discipline the kids and the criminals, to provide comfort when all else fails, to make political points with a susceptible populace. The ulimtate, true freedom that Christ preached doesn't really exist in American culture, and Americans are REALLY scared of it. But they have co-opted religion to make them feel better and to grease the wheels of society to make sure people don't kill each other too much.

In my view ....
Jesus was indeed a great teacher, and Jewish rebel bucking the establishment -- he was not divine. He was the son of God, but so am I.

Even I am religious enough to realize that religion or atheism is a leap of faith. That said, anyone who posts a URL to justify their religion is a fairly laughable sheeple.

GDB:

Just because you believe the lies that Christianity has spread throughout the world in the last 2000 years doesn't mean everyone else believes them too.

If you believe in Jesus, the holy ghost, heaven and hell.. then so be it but stop trying to berate others for not sharing your views.

reagarding your quoting of Romans 1: 22-32 when speaking of those who reject Christianity, "Did you ever notice that those who reject Christianity, who reject Jesus Christ... Often remind you of people described in Romans 1: 22-32" - The same could be said about the fanatical lunatics who have taken over Christianity and use it as a tool to manipulate the faithful into committing horrible acts against humanity.

If you really want to spread the message Jesus brought to earth, I suggest you embrace HIS teachings and not that of the current evangelical/christian leaders who only promote hatred and contempt for anyone who doesn't believe their brand of faith.

The religious right is riddled with adulterers, child molesters, closeted gays/lesbians, money and power hungry individuals who will stop at nothing to make themselves richer at the expense of those who are faithful to Christianity, war mongers who start wars and kill others in the name of a GOD who is supposedly merciful and loving yet they practice the complete opposite. I suggest you busy yourself with helping the poor, the hungry, the homeless, the sick... provide food for them, provide them with shelter in these harsh cold months and stop worrying about others.. after all, you are not GOD nor are you fit to judge others lest you be judged and measured the same.

Martian:
I am in love. Beam me up?

And Bob, just so you know, Pascal was not a very nice guy... Bernoulli, now there's a questioner.

Alot of things have been done in the "name of Christianity" that aren't Christian. And I'm not going to get into a point by point arguement. I will politely ask you to check your facts on some of your statemetns. I believe a few are incorrect. Some are accurate too, but I don't think all of them.

This message is especially for Employed. 'You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free. Jesus is the Truth! The brutality of His death and resurrection was done because of God's unconditional love for you. Jesus is the Christ! Don't put confidence in your 'employment', but in Jesus Christ the Son ot the Most High God.

Anon,

The interesting thing about the Grand Inquisitor is his unceasing love for humanity. That may seem paradoxical as he is burning people at the stake, but he does it for the ultimate happiness of men who cannot bear the burden of the freedom Christ brought us.

Person: I'm not totally sure I understand your question, so let me answer it this way. I beleive the God of Bible, The God of Abraham, Jacob and Issac is real. I beleive the scriptures are the inspired by God. I beleive Jesus Christ is the son of God and through faith in him my sins are forgiven. I believe I will have eternal life with Jesus in heavan. And I beleive it to the exclusion of all other relegions and am willing to "bet my eternal soul" that I am making the right decision. I also know that people who are not Christians cannot really understand why I feel that way. This may not be the answer you wanted, but I hope it helps.

It's the weakminded of every faith seem to think that it's their way or the the highway. Same with radical Muslims, radical Hindus, or whatever.

As an atheist I am confident there are no gods, but that doesn't give me the right to be rude to those who do believe. Those who write for this series are trying to explain their beliefs. If you don't agree, post a thoughtful rebuttal or move on.

For the few that react like spiteful spoiled brats, how delightful you must be to be around. Ever wonder why you have so few friends?

Who fathered Jesus.

Zorba,

Your story is called The Grand Inquisitor in one of Dostoyevsky's books I believe.

GDB:

You state that non-Crhistians are the ones full of hate and malace, and thus imply that Christians aren't. Let's see:

Thousands killed to decide which books go into the bible.

Thousands killed for not believing the non-scriptual doctrine of trinity.

Crusades

Inquisition

Hundreds of years of wars within Europe between competing "Christian" sects

Burning at the state of scientists who disagree that Earth is flat and center of the universe.

"Puritans" (note the base word) determining that some are witches and burning them at the stake.

U.S. president who claims to be led by christian god and starts a war against a nation which has not attacked the U.S.

Yep, you're right. christians must be the ones who have morality figured out. All those others must be the bad guys.

GDB- Would Jesus be smug? I don't think so. And as for the "anger issues" you self-described "Christians" are so concerned about - yeah I'm angry. I'm angry that you all feel obliged and entitled to take over the world for your ends. Jesus Save Me from Your Followers. And as for reading the Bible - amazing you've never ever noticed the discrepancies and contradictions rampant in it - or if you did - you figure God put it there so who are we to use our minds and question?
There are believers of lots of other religions on this planet - get used to it.

There never was a person who walked upon this Earth named Jesus Christ. Read "The Fable of Christ" by Luigi Cascioli. Jesus is a mythical character created by religious leaders by transforming the Jewish nationalist insurgent John of Gamala into a pacifist to provide an alternative to 260 years of failed bloodshed to create a Jewish state.

BC

Jesus did not ask an Apostle why do you call me good. He asked it of a rich merchant who loved his wealth more than he loved his God.

There are no contridictions in the Bible, but many people claim there are. Go to www.carm.org to research them.

Christians reject all other faiths because Jesus said they are all false. Christians accept the Bible as authoritative because it is 66 books written by 40 people over 1500 years, has no contradictions, tells the same story throughout, and all historic prophecy has come true.

The trinity is God in three "persons" or "parts", God the father, God the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. It is difficult to understand, but then man has a finite mind.

===================
LOOK :
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Listen, a lot of you are making this a lot harder than it needs to be....

I once was a young man who found himself in a very ugly and painful world -and some of the pain was being caused by me.

I read the words of Jesus and decided to see if His offers of comfort and guidance were true. So I cried out, not once but repeatedly and persistantly. I asked Jesus to come into my heart and my life to help me stop do things that were wrong. And all I know is that my life has been changed, and something in the center of me is being changed. I am a VERY skeptical person, but I know truth when I see it.

There is still a world that is ugly and there is still pain, but now I have the comfort of God living inside me that loves me, disciplines me, guides me.

I have come to know that Jesus is the very God the of the Jewish Old Testament. When I read the New Testatment, the Words seem to leap off the page -these are not the writings of liar or a lunatic.

Jesus is the Son of God, and offers life to ALL [Jew and gentile] who will seek Him.

I sure hope none of you non-believers are saying all these negative things about Jesus without first reading and praying through the Gospel of John first....

Ken,

There is no such thing as a demon.

Just tryna help out.

Thanks Ken! I've found that the eye witness identification of demons generally makes the identification of a Messiah pretty much an open and shut case.

Case closed.

"Don't any of you people have jobs? I wonder how many corporate hours, or tax dollars (for you gov't workers) were wasted spewing your completely unfounded excuses for an argument that will benefit absolutely no one. Do something useful for cryin' out loud instead of just agitating one another and waiting for your so called god to fix everything."

Ah one of those corporate fascists (note I say fascists, not Nazi, Nazi is a forbidden word nowadays by our Jewish friends)! Let me quote one of my favorite verses from the Holy Scripture: "Man don't live by bread alone".

Or as Ben Franklin would put it: All work and no blog makes "Employed" a dull boy! Or as Godel (not God) would put it, your whining here itself makes you a self denigrating fool.

GDB:

If Jesus was God, why does he say in Matthew, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except one, that is, God." That's Mark 10:18.

Second, what if, just for the sake of argument, you're wrong? What if you've grown up in a tradition which has a false conception of the world? If you came to that conclusion, would you have the strength to face up to it?

Just wondering...

GDB,

angry? I don't believe I expressed any feelings of anger in any of my previous posts. I was merely pointing out the futility of the current debate and suggesting that you may be able to use your time in a bit more productive manner.

The so called Christians are waiting for the return of Christ. In fact, if Jesus came down today, the first person to shoot him would be the Pope. The Pope would also tell him that he is no longer needed here as all the churches in the world can very well take care of the religion business.

To those who say Jesus claimed to be God and that one's only choice is to reject or to believe that his claim was to be God's essence incarnated: Jesus also claimed NOT to be God as when he asked why one of the Apostles would call him good, since that only applies to the Father. What might this mean? If we believe in the Bible, let us believe in and harmonize all of the parts that appear contradictory.

To those who pray that everyone here will come to their version of Jesus' truth before he returns: How many times must he return before Christians will respond to his return as Muhammad and Baha'u'llah? What makes Christians who reject these messengers any different from the Pharisees of Jesus's time who rejected him because they knew that the Messiah would be preceded by Elijah physically coming down from heaven?

To those who are confused by the trinity and Jesus's statement of identity with God: consider the sun reflected in a perfect mirror. We can look at the mirror and see (1) a mirror, (2) a reflection, and (3) the sun. The star did not descend into the mirror, yet there it is, shining resplendently, perfectly reflected. Is it incorrect to say that the sun is in the mirror? The sun = God; the mirror = Jesus; the ray of the sun = Holy Spirit. The light in them is one, but they are not the same.

JESUS IS THE CHRIST. Even demons confessed that in Luke 8:28, when a demon said, "What do you want with me, JESUS, SON OF THE MOST HIGH GOD?
Even the demons know his name (his title) and tremble. John 3:16 says, "For GOD so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten son, and whosoever should believe in him shall have eternal life". Jesus said, in John 14:6, "I am the WAY, TRUTH, and the LIFE, no one comes to the father except through him. He also says in verse 14:1, "Trust in God, Trust also in him"
I respect all people, Jews especially, but I know there is an ignorance gap there when it comes to Jesus, even though he is foretold in
Zechariah and in Isaiah. JESUS IS LORD! And let no high ranking official, Jew or Gentile, tell you otherwise. John 14:23, Jesus said, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teachings. My Father will love him and we will make our home with him. But whoever does not (love him) will not obey his teaching and the Father (GOD) will send (whoever does not believe)away"

Employed: What are you so angry about?

Walter: First, Christianity does not teach that we are "one with the father" in the sense Jesus was one with the Father.

Second, Christians don't claim to be God. Jesus, one persion fully God and Fully Man...he claimed to be God.

And... Jesus said he was the way the truth and the light and that no man comes to the father (God) but by him. He is the redeemer of sinful and lost man, NO OTHER WAY to heavan. So... is Jesus saying that all other faiths are false...Yes .. he is. People may not like it, but that is what he said.

GDB,

God already fixed it huh? That's a load off of my shoulder. So all I have to do is "get in line"? I'm sure your companies record year is attributed to your exemplary work ethic.

No matter how we argue this, the human mind is always going to come up short, its reasoning based in rationalizing emotionally held positions pro and con. The bottom line is experience, then there is no argument - you either have it or you don't. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Question is, what does it take to be pure in heart?

John the Baptist chose to be beheaded rather than denounce Jesus as the Son of God. Likewise, the Apostle, Peter, was crucified upside down (because he judged himself unworthy to die the same death as Jesus) rather than denounce Jesus as the Son of God. Many Christian martyrs chose to be fed to lions rather than deny the divinity of Jesus. Those who were there saw, and believed. Blessed are they who believe without seeing.

GDB:

I can't disagree with whatever you have observed, I can only suggest that to deduce anything from it would be the result of a fallacy.

I had a conversation with a Christian that told me that it wasn't sinful for him to go to Iraq and kill people there because they were the enemies of God.

Now, I wouldn't come in here and say "I've observed that Christians are OK with killing people." It's a straw man argument.

Don't let atheists who have never read the bible or know history represent all atheists view points and I won't let my Christian friend who is murdering in the name of God represent yours.

Martian:

Tell me some more about your race. Does removing this gene to pacify your people do anything to creativity? Do you think God wants people that have no free will, that love Him without choice. Do you have love on Mars? I don't think love can exist without confrontation. I means seriously, if everyone loves everyone, is it love? Wait, that would mean you are God. I guess that does make sense since you fool around with DNA.

:)

One of the things that amazes me about discussions like this is peoples' willingness to express strong opinions about a book that most of them have never read: the Bible.

It would be like someone who has never studied Nuclear Physics expressing strong opinions about the work of Einstein.

Read the book. Then you will have a basis to criticize what is says.

Someday none of us will know the name "Jesus Christ" anymore. We won't argue these points that can't be resolved, we won't define ourselves by any standard, and we won't burn with questions. All the delusions that sustained us will be part of the past. We won't even have the capability to understand that every moment we spent gnawing on some sorry conundrum of history was a moment we could have been aiming at joy and fulfillment.

Life is bigger, stranger, more wonderful and terrible than anyone has imagined, and that includes Jesus.

"Either he was and is or was a lunatic. He left no middle ground."

Lots of religions state that we are one with God-- that God exists within us and we are just manifestitations of God.

That doesn't make them "lunatics" does it?

Employed: God already fixed it. There are two lines...which one we get in is our choice.

Oh...and I have a job. My company has had a record year and we are all very happy about it! Thanks!

Don't any of you people have jobs? I wonder how many corporate hours, or tax dollars (for you gov't workers) were wasted spewing your completely unfounded excuses for an argument that will benefit absolutely no one. Do something useful for cryin' out loud instead of just agitating one another and waiting for your so called god to fix everything.

Michelle: His resurrection has everyting to do with his "lesson to humanity". It was his dealth and resurrection that he came to earth. Jesus plainly said he was God, that he and God are one being (along with the Holy Spirt -- The Trinity) Jesus was the second nature of the Trinity. CS Lewis' comment stated somewhere above in this thread is on point. He claimed to be God. Either he was and is or was a lunatic. He left no middle ground.

To Anoymous:

Re: "The Bible from beginning to end is the story of Jesus." Even the part about King David lusting after and then stealing another man's wife, what's her name?

Answer: It was worse than that. David arranged to have Bathsheba's husband killed in a war, making him a murderer. Likewise, Moses murdered a man. The Apostle Paul oversaw the murder of Stephen. In fact, almost all the "heroes" of the Bible had dirty laundry. They were sinners, just like us. And they needed a Savior, just like us.

The fact that the people in the Bible are remarkably human testifies to it as a truthful depiction of the condition of mankind. In the end we are all like David or Paul. We need to be redeemed from our sins. The Bible reveals that Jesus, the son of God, is our redeemer.

Debbie,

What is the Holy Ghost anyway? Should we celebrate his existence on Halloween?

"Why in this day in age are people still slamming others because of their beliefs why are people still segregating against each other. Jesus and God must be looking down on us with absolute shame."

See there is this long strand on the 3rd chromosome that codes the "slamming others" part of all you humans. Unless and until you remove that part from your DNA, nothing will change. Up here on Mars we snip out lots of the parts we don't like about our genetic code.

Luke: Anybody here? Hey, Old Man. You home tonight? Can You spare a minute. It's about time we had a little talk. I know I'm a pretty evil fellow... killed people in the war and got drunk... and chewed up municipal property and the like.

I know I got no call to ask for much... but even so, You've got to admit You ain't dealt me no cards in a long time. It's beginning to look like You got things fixed so I can't never win out. Inside, outside, all of them... rules and regulations and bosses. You made me like I am. Now just where am I supposed to fit in? Old Man, I gotta tell You. I started out pretty strong and fast. But it's beginning to get to me. When does it end? What do You got in mind for me? What do I do now?

Right. All right.
[Gets on knees, closes eyes and begins to pray]
Luke: . On my knees, asking.
[Peeks up with one eye, waits. Then opens eyes and crosses arms]

Luke: . Yeah, that's what I thought. I guess I'm pretty tough to deal with, huh? A hard case.
[Clicks tongue]
Luke: . Yeah. I guess I gotta find my own way.
[Headlights shine through windows, backs up]
Luke: .
Dragline: Luke?

Luke: [Shakes head and smiles] . Is that Your answer, Old Man? I guess You're a hard case, too.

Skeptic: I'm making an observation...you apparently disagree. You're welcome to that.

I think we miss the point entirely by wondering, debating and fighting each other over the divinity of Jesus. It is quite enough to learn from the his teachings and earthly gifts. His resurrection has nothing to do with his lesson to humanity.

Anonymous:

Free will was our first gift. THe "apple" is just a symbol for choosing to "be like God." Christianity differs from most religions because it comes right out and says we cannot not sin. It is beyond us to redeem ourselves in eyes of God. But He loved us so much that He sacrificed his only Son that we may live, rather than die under the weight of sin. Forget hell after death - there is more than enough of hell right here on earth. The only answer to sin is grace.

I use to think that the vast majority of Christians believe in the Christian message of Faith, Hope and Love. But after seeing the huge majority of American Christians turn their backs on this message because of a little, quite transparent propoganda from Bush, I think that these very same Christians will abandon their principles very readily because of the fear, anger, hatred and downright selfishness that dwells in their hearts.

GDB:

Wow, you beat that straw man down. Pick him back up, and knock him down again with some more verse.

Did you ever notice that those who reject Christianity, who reject Jesus Christ….

Seem to always be angry

Seem to criticize only Christianity

Rarely seem to know the factual foundations of the Christian Faith.

Seemingly have never actually read the Bible, but only throw out versus usually out of context.

Often make broad and incorrect statements about history…history that is outside of that in the bible

Often seem to try and base their positions on deep intellectual insights, which are shallow and not always thought through

Never accept anything Biblical and always accept that which is not without investigation

Often remind you of the people described in Romans 1: 22 - 32

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

"What kills me that the gospel of the Prince of Peace relies upon the threat of an eternal swim in a lake of fire, which must have been happening for the past 2000 years and will continue until the end of times. Is it so necessary to destroy non-believers in order to save them?"

See you don't understand. It all goes back to Eve and that apple! The lake of fire is the price for that one apple.

Besides the Prince of Peace don't run that part of the universe. That line of work is contracted out to the same people who run Abu Ghraib.

I just LOVE all you guys for all the comments, and I'm not even a Christian. This is certainly delightful pre-Christmas reading. Whose birthday it was again?

Here's a little something our loving God has given us:

http://www.npr.org/programs/newsnotes/features/2006/mar/carter/blurb200_lg.jpg

Anonymous

I think what Jesus did more than anything was teach people how to love themselves as God loves us, and not as people love us.

peace

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all of you. I am a Christian. Believe what you believe. If athiests are correct, I guess we're all worm food. But being a Christian is the central point of my life and my reason for doing good, because all human beings are created in the image of God and therefore worth my efforts. If I'm right, I'll do what I can to get you in when I'm up there, your soul is worth it to me. In the mean time, help a stranger, donate money to help those in need, teach someone, you get the point. Take this time of year to not be angry if you can. This was very "shiney happy people" of me, but hey, I feel good I hope you can too.

What kills me that the gospel of the Prince of Peace relies upon the threat of an eternal swim in a lake of fire, which must have been happening for the past 2000 years and will continue until the end of times. Is it so necessary to destroy non-believers in order to save them?

I am astounded by things that people have said on here. It's christmas time, a time to sit back and reflect on the year gone. Ask yourself, have you treated others with respect and love just as you would want to be treated, have you given to others out of your own pocket to help them. These are the things jesus has taught us to do. These are the things that are written in the new testament. He wants us to treat each other with respect and love, Even if you dont believe that he was the son of god, even if you dont believe in any religion. To lead a good life, to be a good person is to take these things into consideration. I dont see this when i read these comments. Why in this day in age are people still slamming others because of their beliefs why are people still segregating against each other. Jesus and God must be looking down on us with absolute shame. Since its christmas time stop and think about your actions, think about what you say to other people and as the cliche saying goes think about "what would jesus do"

"The Bible from beginning to end is the story of Jesus."

Even the part about King David lusting after and then stealing another man's wife, what's her name?

The Dave I said was right was the one who wrote:

My favorite idea about Jesus is that he came not to make bad people good, but dead people live. If you know what I mean by that you are probably a follower.

Lynne:

When reading someone else's argument, it's useful to do them the favor of not interpreting their argument/point in the way that makes the least possible amount of sense.

When I referred to churches, I was not speaking merely of the physical buildings.

The Bible from beginning to end is the story of Jesus. If anyone is interested, you can learn about this in a series of Bible studies posted at

www.gospelofgenesis.com

Many of the questions raised in this forum are addressed in these studies, giving the Bible's answers to these questions.

And yes, Dave, you are right.

>

Believer Dave,

You can say much the same about Socrates! Read Plato's treatise on love. You'd swear it was Jesus speaking.

You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God'. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of thing Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.

God exists because man created "Him". It is currently man's place in time for creation.

Perhaps if there is/was a 'devil' he/she introduced religion to keep the various peoples separate and apart and always at odds with each other? It ought to be clear to a thinking person that world peace and harmony will remain hollow words. How about the possibility that there is no Creator? That Man is condemned to find common ground wtih his/her fellow Man? In which century will Shiite, Sunni, Jew, Christian, Jain, Buddahist, Atheist, etc. see sufficiently eye to eye for peace on earth? Ok some religions believe in the hereafter, the Rapture among other exit strategies. When will Man act for the benefit of Man here on earth?

I find a lot of fault with the idea that he was "profoundly human." There is not much about how Jesus interacted with others that point to him being human. Maybe a human without sin, but not a normal human. Just a few examples - he gave comfort to those that normal humans avoid and demean (especially for that day) - sick, women, tax collectors, Romans. He saw exactly what others were thinking, feeling! He answered questions with questions that made people think more about themselves than about him. He asked people to do what no one ever asked them to do! The Jews were all caught up in the LAW, and not following God's will. He didn't want fame, and yet people flocked to him. He didn't want to die, and willingly gave whatever punishment was given. He had followers that weren't extremely bright, but were loyal. He brought EXACTLY what the bible said he would - a new kingdom on earth. THe jews didn't believe he was messiah because their idea of what the messiah would bring was an earthly idea. No, what he brought has lasted 2,000 years - not a bad reign so far.

Wow, how helpful: a nonbelieving jew commenting on the divinity of Jesus Christ. Maybe next week, you can get a luddite to review the latest electronics from Sony.

When I was a little boy growing up in Wyoming, Jesus cornered me in a dark alley rumpled my scrotum. It still flakes and burns to this very day. Hallejuh.

Jason:

Though C.S. Lewis was a great "Man of Letters" at both Oxford and Cambridge, he fails to apply the historical-critical literary method to the gospels. The components of that method, as applied to all ancient literature, involve text, source, form, and redaction criticisms. The first three gospels are edited forms of the Q document, compiled by one editor, while John is compiled a by a different editor who does not borrow from the Q document. Analysis of the Aramaic syntax reveals that differing portions of the texts were authored by different persons with radically differing styles. The post-crucifixion portions are shown to be stylistically the most different and there is overwhelming evidence that these apocraphal sections were added later in time by those who wanted to create a new religion and is essence, "added words to Jesus' mouth," words not actually spoken by the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

I do not diminish Lewis' ability as a writer of great literature (he wrote much beyond "Narnia"), but his decision to limit reality to these two choices does not make it so in actuality.

Jim,

"I find it interesting that the Muslims and the Jews, who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, are the people who are totally out of control in this world."

Well, since there are only 3 religions in the world and there are no out of control Christians in the world, I guess you've pretty much proven Christianity is the true religion! Congrats!

I don't understand why the question is being asked. There are two answers: Christians believe jesus is the Son of God; non-Christians believe he was a man who was probably agreat teacher. What an enormous distance between the two views! The Bible describes Jesus as the Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Wonderful Counselor, Holy One, Lamb of God, Prince of Life, Lord God Amighty, Lion of the tribe of Judah, Root of David, Word of Life, the Author and Finisher of our faith, Advocate, the Way, Dayspring, Lord of All, I Am, Son of God, Shepherd and Bishop of Souls, Messiah, The Truth, Saviour, Chief Cornerstone, King of Kings, Righteous judge, Light of the World, Head of the Church, Morning Star,Sun of Righteousness, Lord, Chief Shepherd, Lord of Lords, Resurrection and Life, Bread of Life, the Creator, and the Alpha and Omega. This is no mere teacher, no rabbi in some galilean tradition. He is God in the flesh. It is silly to have this discussion. Either you acknowledge him as Lord and Saviour or you don't. The rest is smoke.

Churches are places of worship, not kingdoms. Of course, the more opulent the church, the more I can see where your comment would make sense to a nonbeliever. While I think that the great outdoors is the perfect cathedral, practical issues require something more weather-resistant for us modern folk. :) I appreciate a beautiful church, but I appreciate more the people who live in a manner that Christ espoused. We all fall short of that goal--myself most of all, I sometimes think--but those who honestly and earnestly try to live by Christ's message are examples of his spiritual kingdom. Churches may crumble and fall away, but God's love lasts forever.

I understand Jews not wanting to except Jesus as their looked for Messiah! But it is absolutely ignorant to say Jesus was just a wise teacher of his time. Jesus took the entire message of Judaism and expanded it to the point of completeness. Jesus took 9 of the 10 commandments, given by Moses, and completed them or expanded them to what they were meant to ultimately be. Jesus may not have been an actual God in the flesh, but his message was the completion of Judiasm. You do not need a large IQ to see the completion of not murdering is "loving your enemies." Judaism at the time of Christ focused on "behavior" Christ's message focuses on "intent."

Jews no not want to consider Christ as the fulfillment of their faith, but he most surely was. Whether a Jew accepts Jesus as literally God's son is irrelevant. He picked up Mose's and the prophet's pen and finished what they had to say about what is moral.

I think this is the great tragedy of the current Jewish attitude toward Christ. They essentially are rejecting themselves. By arguing that Jesus wasn't a prophet or teacher equal with Moses or Abraham they force themselves into a religion that stagnated many years ago.

Jews of today are exactly like Jews 2000 years ago they cannot get beyond their fear of Christ or their prejudices to see that Christ is Them. To reject Christ as a Jew is to reject yourself! And that is the tragedy of the whole thing.

I have believed for a long time that if theJudeo/Christian message does not reflect a message actually given by God then it must be a kind of science. You laugh! science! Are there moral principles inherently part of our universe and have human beings found them? Either the Bible is a relection of God given truth or all religious principles are a form of "truths" found by trial and error for 10,000 years by men and women trying to discover how to live. So whether Christ was real or not the message represents the learning, moral learning, of all human beings and ignoring it is only a rejection of all of our pasts. Rejecting all past moral learning is as dangerous as rejecting all of our scientific learning.

Jews and Muslims are in total denial about Jesus. The thrust of Jesus' teachings was to implore Gentiles and Jews to honor his father God. We all know what Jesus received for his efforts, the death sentence. Jews and Muslims can deny the relationship between Jesus and God. Jews and Muslims cannot deny the crucifixion of Jesus, can they? That is kinda like denying the holocaust, isn't it? The Jews and the Muslims see Jesus as a prophet, not the Son of God. I find it interesting that the Muslims and the Jews, who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, are the people who are totally out of control in this world. They have been murdering and maiming each other for hundreds if not thousands of years, trying to get to God without recognizing Jesus as their savior. It is also interesting that the Jews and Muslims to paraphrase a passage in the bible ‘appear as mad men’ to the world. To our Jewish friends we beg you, if, as you claim, you are the chosen people, please start acting likes it; To our Muslim friends we beg you, if your birthright was stolen as you claim and you are the chosen people, please come to your senses and start acting like it, for the sake of the world.

Julia,

Thank you for the forthright manner in which you present your thoughts; no condescension, no apologies, no equivocation, and with some appreciation of who the man was and for the world in which he lived. I believe your assessment of Jesus is respectful and accurate. It is comforting to hear my own intellectual inclinations echoed by someone of your stature. And yet still, for me, having been raised Catholic, everyday I wrestle with the concept of Jesus and what my personal and spiritual obligations are to him and God. The messages I read in the Bible and hear from others are very contradictory. Maybe I should convert to Judaism and be done with it! Thanks again.

Michael

Jesus was never accepted as a prophet by the Jews. In fact he was betrayed by the Jews to Romans as an agitator. Unlike Christian and Muslims, Jews do not believe he was born to Virgin Mary. The Jews also have no faith in reincarnation of Christ. It is only lately after World War 11 that the Jews for their own benefits have twined themselves with Christians and started the stunt of New and Old Testament as same book. Most of the Christians have now woken to this ploy as soon there will be a radical change in practice of deceit.

Bob,

Yours is called the Pascal's wager.

Godel's theorem is not the last word. It almost surely is a misunderstanding dated back to your man Bertie. He's up here now. And we have shown him his mistake.

Hmm, if he was just a great teacher why all the controversy. Why is he remembered? My favorite idea about Jesus is that he came not to make bad people good, but dead people live. If you know what I mean by that you are probably a follower.

Lynne:

So, if Jesus decided not to make an "Earthly, political, kingdom," then why do so many Christians, who largely profess to attempt to live a life in his image feel the need to unthinkingly form Churches, which are nothing if not a manifestation of earthly political kingdoms?

Yes, as a martian I can confirm that "the pink, one-horned horses do fly around the red rock". We put them up there to transmit phone calls, movies, interplanetary communications. The horns make for great antennas. You earthlings should try it.

What if Jesus is real? Note the present tense.
If he is not real then the christians are no worse off than anyone else. They die the end.
Once again, what if that is not the end of the story?

If you don't mind, I'll rather have a cup of tea

A fellow model theorist?! a fellow logician???

Would that you had quoted Gödel, Dave, and I might have fallen in love...

Jesus's (the Nazarene) life will most certainly for the near future be taken out of the context for what he contributed during his lifetime. It is the usual reaction to bring him down to our own levels of spiritual/emotional progress, that way we don't need to look so hard at ourselves in light of his purer example. Jesus, Julia, Julia, Jesus..... who would her parishioners prefer to lead a Sunday talk on spirituality in the modern day? Julia's commentary I think unfairly reduces his talents to rising above the teachers of his day, exemplary but not brilliant. Which was my impression reading her not thought out commentary. Really, he was brilliant, a modern day revolutionary/phenomenon. When was the last time you saw a miracle worker of his integrity in the media, teaching for the love of others and not for his own financial gain (try Sai Baba of India in Puttaparthi for the nearest current example). Jesus was/is the best known populist to fight for the lowest common denominator in society and one of our greatest chances at shifting civilisation and humanity to a higher level of humaness, dignity, truth and cosmic understanding of our place in the order of things . Who will forget, according to stories of his wrecking the merchant stalls inside the temple in Jerusalem saying they were polluting a sacred space. Pretty common sense. Commercialism intruding on the spiritual sphere. He was a boundary keeper who sought to expose the opportunists and power abusers who continue to abuse today. We make the money changers, salespeople hawking wares and oppportunistic sellers of sacrificial animals of his day childs play compared to the lows we've allowed ourselves to embarassingly bottom out to today. Please come back Jesus I invite you to wreck some of the habits we find acceptable. He exemplified and showed once he finished his own inner purifying and cleansing process that its possible for any man or woman to go inside themselves and find the revolutionary truth, dignity and compassion to shift themselves and those around them. He naturally taught and ultimately died to instill the concept of neutral, blind, justice for every man. Try Planet of Choice by Phyllis Schlemmer for some great info. on Jesus of Nazareth's mission here.

And this is where Christians and Jews part company on the subject of Jesus. Yes, Jesus certainly was a great teacher, and he most certainly disagreed with, justifiably I might add, with the Jewish leaders of the day. However, he was the Son of God, as we Christians believe. This is based not only on the New Testament scriptures, but also on the prophecies foretold in the Book of Isaiah. He fulfilled the prophecies and was/is the Messiah. He just failed to do what the people of the day expected: He did not create an Earthly, political, kingdom. His is a spiritual kingdom.

B-Man:
"You may as well believe that there are pink unicorns orbiting Mars."

I do not care what you think. In the Book of Truthiness it states, "And the pink, one-horned horses shall fly around the red rock."

Repent, blasphemer.

"To model something is not to replicate it but to capture enough of the features you consider essential for what you are trying to understand or do."

A good distinction anonymous, but it does not take away from the fact that a model is simply a model. It is not the universe and represents at best a limited view. People have been killing each other for centuries over differences of understanding. This has to stop or we as a species will not survive.

Not all religions, or sects thereof, blindly believe. Blind faith is not universally accepted as a good thing. Buddhism, for one example, is further along in this respect than some. But it isn't the only religion that accepts this principle.

One of my favorite quotes from Voltaire is:

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."

The principle extends to the wonderful 18th century saying, from whom I can not currently recall, that goes in effect:

"There is no ideology, religion or concept that is worth burning down my neighbor's house."

When I see Christians, Muslims, Atheists etc... acting in ways consistent with this saying I will be a lot less fearful for our future.

To "Christian" - Who's saying there's no God (sic)? This is about whether or not Jesus was/is God. I've given this serious thought and the whole "Jesus died for your sins" basis for Christianity makes no sense to me - not that I'm perfectly behaved. I just cannot see the connection between his crucifixion and my (occasionally) bad behavior. Crucifying Jesus the activist makes sense - he shook up the Establishment and Thou Shalt Not Do That - but crucifying Jesus the savior does not.
P.S.: How convenient that the Bible states people who say God doesn't exist are fools. What do you expect it to say? To me, they're independent thinkers, which is taboo in all fundamentalist circles. Sad that you can't use the brain that your God gave you.

Jesus was either who he said he was -- the son of God -- or he was a nutcase, for who but a crazy person would claim he was God and then allow himself to be crucified rather than deny it.

The question for all us is: Who do you say Jesus is?

The answer is in the Bible for those who seek it. As Jesus said, "Ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and he door will be opened to you."

I challenge anyone reading this, even those who do not believe in God, to do the following:

1) Read the Gospel of John
2) Before you read it, pray to God -- even if you have to address a God you don't believe in -- and ask Him to reveal Jesus to you.

Be prepared to come face to face with the Person of Jesus Christ. Then you will know who he is.

I dont think that God is so stupid a judge that he will kill an innocent man for my sins.
This is total nonsense.

Religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, is faith-based delusion, arising from the human ego's desperate need to be comforted.

Each religion seeks to affirm as truth that which goes against all natural laws, has zero evidence to support it, and who's adherents bitterly disagree between and within each religion.

You may as well believe that there are pink unicorns orbiting Mars.

Can you say BOGUS?!

Jesus is (not was) the Word come in the flesh. He became what we are so we could become what he is - in communion with God.

Please - live your faith (whatever it is) first, preach it second. Jesus said, "First wash the inside of the cup, then the outside." Once you are perfect in preaching your faith through actions, then use words. Till then, let us experience the cleansing virtues of silence.

C.S. Lewis called Hell "the kingdom of noise".

Yasheva; that was his name. Dont understand why we have changed his name. You wont like if someone changed your name. The fact that we changed his name to suit our needs is an indication that every thing else is given a spin.

The Bible calls fools those who say 'there is no God'"

And rationality calls fools those who say "the Bible is the word of God."

It is a compilatoin of other books written by human beings, and which books would be included and excluded was decided by a committee of human beings.

I do not believe that Jesus differed from the orthodox Judaism of his time because there was no orthodox Judaism then. There was a wide range of views in Judaism and some disagreement.
As religions develop in competition with other religions, they develop dogmas, the acceptance of which separates the good guys from the bad guys. But Jesus was too early for that. There are vestiges of the earlier broader views today in Judaism. They include hints of a doctrine that the near-sacrifice of Isaac still expiates contemporary Jewish sins. They also include divine emanations and aspects that resemble the trinity.
A conservative Anglican priest I knew stated that the doctrine of the Resuurection was essential for Christianity because otherwise there was no essential difference between Christianity and Judaism. I think he had it right except, perhaps, in wanting an essential difference.

Everyone is missing the point. It does not matter if Jesus was divine or the son of God. What matters is his teachings. All religions and every person can accept his teachings as valid and we should all be trying to follow his teachings. Buddhist, Muslim, Christen, Jew, atheist, all must agree that what he exposed was important and the world and humankind would be better off following him. Jesus never told anyone that he was the son of God, he said he was the son of man, and we are all the sons and daughters of man and have some divinity in us. I personally believe that Jesus had more of the divine in him then perhaps any other person but that is my belief and nobody has to agree with that, they should only follow his examples. We should all be followers of Jesus.

I am a JEW. I also believe that Jesus was not only correct in chastizing the leaders of judaism at the time... but that his criticisms are perfectly applicable today.

Further, I believe he is devine.

I am not a "born-again christian", a "jew for jesus" or member of any other cult. Yes, I said CULT.

I am a Jew who believes the Messiah has come and will return.

Please don't bother telling me I can't be a jew if I believe the messiah has already come. You claim to be jews and likely support the subjegation of an entire race of people called the Palestinians... that is certainly NOT JEWISH.

I also find there are no humans alive who are qualifed to represent me before my maker, or who are qualifeid to represent my maker to me. All I see are would-be politicians and apologists for those who would commit crimes against humanity, or control humanity to their own personal benefit... usually a financial or political (again, financial) one.

Michael,

You mean "3 wise guys"?

What will all the believers say if and when aliens land on earth before the Messiah returns? What will they do? Will that day be the Momentous Day? The day aliens round us up as a food source, the way we round up cattle today?

It's all politics. 2000 years ago, there were 2 empires, Roman and Persian. "3 wise men" from Persia went to Jerusalem to see how they can make trouble for Romans. To make the story short, eventually they did.

Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. * She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. * She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." * He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. * She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" * He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed." * So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. * And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" * But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; * "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. * "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'" * At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! * "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" * But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" * He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; * "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; * "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; * "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! * Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. * It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. * Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. * But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! * How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest! * But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe! * It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.
(Mariam 19:16-40)

In another 30 years, articles and comments like these will be considered quaint. The rational world is coming to the realization that most of the religions of the world have become exclusive to the point of intolerance and violence. Did Jesus exist? Who cares? Was he a teacher or a prophet or the son of God? Who knows? One thing is for sure, if Jesus is happy with what his followers are doing now, he isn't a very nice guy.We have real problems to solve.

Dave,

You completely misunderstand the use of models dude. To model something is not to replicate it but to capture enough of the features you consider essential for what you are trying to understand or do.

Now religionists claim their models explain everything if only we would trust them and their good books.

Trust just don't verify is all religions' motto.

Atheism is a crutch relied upon by those who cannot cope with the reality of God.

As a convert from Sunni Islam to Christianity (1982) who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the fundamental raison d'etre of any religion/theology is to address the irreducible and non-negotiable question of how one relates to God, the Creator of all life and Redeemer of sinful man. The alienation of man from God is due to sin, which every mortal has committed, "for all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God". Without the remission and forgiveness of sin, no man can be, or will be, reconciled to God. Only Jesus -- being 100% divine and 100% human (a great mystery, no doubt) -- can pay for man's sin for, first and foremost, sin is against God. Human sacrifice/works -- no matter how lofty, noble or costly -- can never atone for our sin. Not even Archangel Gabriel can atone for my sin. It had to be the perfectly Sinless Son of God Who alone can save me from perdition and reconcile me to the Father -- Who, Himself, "was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself" lest we err in viewing Him as yet another absentee deity of mythology and folklore.

I do not care how other people feel, or think, I believe in the FATHER, SON AND THE HOLY GHOST, and know one can take that away from me. God is the greatest creator of all. He made a woman and a man and brought forth a child, who would grow up and die for no reason at all, except so that I could live and have eternal life. It saids that in time people will grow away from god, and they will speak bad of him.
I have had a couple bad situations where there was proof that god does exsist, and I will think no other way.

I'm not sure which are scarier: Fundamentalist Christians or Fundamentalist Atheists? So far reading over these posts I would think the Atheists are pulling ahead... slightly.

Only one certainty besides death and taxes: All human models of reality cannot be reliable because in order to model the universe the model would need to be as large and complex as the universe itself. This is not to say that some models could be considered "better" than some others, but just to point out that all human systems of thought suffer from this limitation. To paraphrase Shakespeare "There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt of in our philosophy".

It's fine with me that people believe in Jesus, or not. The important thing is how a person acts. Christians cannot expect everyone to think the same way or visit violent action or speech on those who disagree. Atheists would do well to demonstrate their "superior" reasoning by acting less like bigots and more like the enlightened minds they aspire to be. Which means coming to the understanding that human culture, as well as history, is not wholly rational. This was all settled by the failure of historical positivism in the 19th century.

So to put into my native Californian vernacular: Lighten up dudes!

Why the good god allows people to suffer so much? Julia, I see you smiling from ear to ear. Obviously, your god loves you more than any of the suffering souls in the world.

I can only conclude that your god is bias or .....

Paul,

And some wag claimed it's a gene on our DNA molecule!

There really is a god delusion.

I've never understood, if Jesus was not the Messiah, what more could the Messiah have been? What more did our ancestors, the Jews, need to convince them? Should He have killed everyone except living Jews to be accepted as the representative of the loving God we worship? And if He was not the annointed one, where is the "real" Jewish Messiah? How much longer do you think you need to wait?

My loving Saviour is the light, open your heart to him and receive peace - no need to argue anymore.

Love and Peace to all.

It pains me to see the Rabbi get whipsawed (catch it from both sides) for what is a pretty inclusive statement, given that she isn't Christian.

If Jesus died for mankind, isn't that enough? I mean, either he did or he didn't. Individual religious belief shouldn't be part of the formula. To me, if Jesus did die for the sins of mankind, all would know his love, regardless of faith, or lack of it. Or not, but that would be between Jesus/God and that person, not for another human holding a book and telling another person what the words in that book mean.

Let the inquisition end.

I was a firm atheist before reading these comments, but thanks to those who quoted scripture in order to determine whether or not Jesus was the son of god, I am completely born again.

Amen.

Please stop putting the religious discussions tab in front of the Opinions tab of the home page window. I really am not interested in them and feel that it is disrespectful to block a prime function of the newspaper --editorials and analysis-- from the readers' view. I don't object to having these discussions as part of the paper, but I feel like it is being shoved down my throat.

All you self confessed Christians, why don't you do what Christ said? Give up all your worldly belongings, take up your cross, and follow him? Why don't you turn the other cheek, instead you voted for the one who advocates the preemptive strike, twice? What could be more ANTICHRIST than the preemptive strike? Now I can understand not turning the other cheek, or walking away. That would be unchristian like but certainly human. But the preemptive strike? Wouldn't that be thoroughly ANTICHRIST? So you are actually followers of the antichrist these past few years?

Suck on it Julia

Jesus was a good magician for his time. Nothing more.

"Jesus kicked me through the goal posts of life"

QUOTE a Jew who was critical of the orthodoxy of his day, and of the power play indulged in by many of Judaism's leaders UNQUOTE. Rabbi, I am a Christian, and I thank you for your lessons today. I most respectfully suggest to you that we need more jewish teachers like Jesus to counter the destabilizing, irresponsible influence of those like Irving Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle and the rest of the pseudo-cons. I use the prefix "pseudo" instead of "neo" because I do not consider them to be conservatives at all. The more I learn of them, the more I see them as neo-fascists. Their adaptations are only skin deep. Social camouflage. The more I see the fruits of their labors, the more I start to understand the demented justifications of Hitler and that vision screams against all that I have been taught to love and cherish in this life.
Fourteen characteristics of Fascism:
1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause:
4.) Supremacy of the Military:
5.) Rampant Sexism:
6.) Controlled Mass Media:
7.) Obsession with National Security:
8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined:
9.) Corporate Power is Protected:
10.) Labor Power is Suppressed:
11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts:
12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment:
13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption:
14.) Fraudulent Elections:
Regardless of your views on the true origins of Jesus, I think we can agree that this type of societal corruption in the United States is NOT the work of God. As the United States has helped the Jewish people rid themselves of Fascist oppression and genocide under Hitler's final solution, I cry out to you Rabbi and to all Jewish people of good faith to help the United States NOW in one of Her greatest, and gravest times of need. I fear we can not do it alone.

May God Bless you.

Jesus was indeed a great teacher and his message of love is universal. Horrible things have been done in His name but that's a reflection of those people, not of Jesus and his message.

One day..."every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" He is the blessed and only Potentate, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Without him there was nothing made that was made including you. You'll find out when He returns. I pray you are ready and receive the truth before that happens.

Jesus was(probably) a Middle eastern man who (probably) lived some 20 centuries ago and developed a following in his time. Since then his followers have had unending disagreements about what he really said, what he really meant by what he said, and whether he really was resurrected and was the son of God. Anybody who wasn't there doesn't really know any of these things, and all of you believe what you want. Don't see how any meaningful discourse can occur here, and I've been looking for some since the feature started.

The problem with Baroness Neuberger's position is that it is untenable. I understand her wishing to be polite, but only two positions about Jesus are reasonable: either he was what he claimed to be -- Messiah -- or he was crazy. True, crazy people may on occasion say something "insightful." But Jesus' status as a teacher may not so easily be separated from his repeated claim to be Messiah. If his claim to be Messiah is false, then why give any credence at all to his theology, which is centered upon his role as redeemer? You can't have it both ways.

Why throw words of hatred, and anger at a faith you do not have? Why laugh at those you consider "foolish"? What could the "delusioned" masses of Christians mean to you who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ? Why even spare the time to type a post? Maybe the foolish Christian, holds fast to a belief that is beyond your "wisdom." Irrespective of that, why not look to us foolish Christians with love, and not contempt? For if we are wrong, what harm would loving us do to you?

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

With all due respects to the rabbi, what is there in her comments that are at all noteworthy? As she is a Jew, I do not expect that she would believe that Jesus was anything more than one of many Jewish prophets and teachers. Sorry, but I don't believe Muhammed is God's prophet and ascended into heaven; does that get me a WaPo front page tease?

As for the extreme posters on both sides of the issues, thanks for sharing. The non-believers seem to have some real anger issues, and I think they should look at the more personal roots of that.
The unquestioning believers may certainly be blessed, but they may also have missed the essence of what The Word means. Resurrection is the approval by the Father of what Jesus, the Son, accomplished on earth, including his passion and death. But remember: there is no Resurrection without Good Friday. "Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friends..." And you know the rest, which is a hard command.

All I want to say is Jesus is Lord and thank God for sharing his son so that I may have everlasting life. If not for him there would be no me.

Happy Birthday Lord!

Why, if Jesus was merely a Jewish religious and social critic, did a religion begin centered around the belief that he was the Son of God who died for the sins of the world and was raised from the dead?

Ms. Neuberger may have an answer, but her glib post above is so devoid of substance as to be pointless. She ought to have at least provided some reasons for her belief that the accounts and beliefs of Jesus' followers were entirely wrong regarding him.

In regards to Ms. Neuberger's comments, I think C.S. Lewis said it best: "Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about him being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Marian, Jesus came because of God's Love and Care for you. He wants to have a relation with you and Jesus is the Only Way to having that relation with God.

The Bible calls fools those who say "there is no God"

If US (and Europe) was Israel and Israel was US, i.e. if Jewish nation was large and christian nation was less powerful, such a comment would never come about. Instead you would be saying how correct it was to nip him in the bud!
Religious hypocrisy at its best here..

You deluded fools. You think the God/gods who created this universe, who set off chained thermo nuclear explosions in the stars, and string them into vast galaxies give a hoot about you puny humans? All the religions that come out of the Middle East have caused more pain and suffering than anything else on earth. All!

The ancient Greeks and Buddhists have much better stories regarding the divine.

I'm in total agreement with Antiluminous. No crucifixion, no resurrection, no redemption, no forgiveness. Jesus is the Son of the Most High God! The ‘Christ’! Believe in Him and you shall forgiveness. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus on whom be peace was the mighty messenger of God.

God has sent many messengers to humanity like Abraham, Isaac, Ismail, Moses, Jesus and finally Mohammed. May peace be on all of them.

God is one. HE is everlasting. HE neither begets nor HE is begotten. There is none like HIM. HE is the one.

a Jew who was critical of the orthodoxy of his day......So all the critics of that era had 12 Apostles??

Jesus wasn't supposed to defend himself from being crucified. If Jesus didn't get crucified, then he would not have been resurrected. The Resurrection is one of the critical foundations of the Christian faith.

Jesus was a good man, wonderful teacher/idol and a prophet like other prophet. But absolutely he was not God, God does not grow up like Jesus, God is almighty but Jesus was not almighty, he could not defense himself against crucifying.

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. NOW, YOU HAVE A FOURTH COMMENT.

BLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAH!

Wrong! Twice. Jesus was a woman, "the Amen" of Revelation, AMENophis IV and she was an Egyptian, by law. Her mother, Tiye was a foreigner, non Egyptian. She could have come from Judah. I haven't found an expert opinion saying that is so.

The Bible is a hoax, http://www.hoax-buster.org The real story from which the Bible was extracted is on page 2 at the site.

You do want to know where all those mysterious places like the Garden of Eden and Tower of Babble came from don't you?

Israelite - builder, carpenter like St Joseph
Hebrew - woman, (maybe special case of Pharaoh)
Jew - one who's ancestry goes back to Judah

I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year. That goes for everyone alive everywhere on earth.

As per Karen Armstrong, "We are all Sons and Daughters of God!!!!!"

As per a number of historical Jesus scholars:

Jesus the Myth: Heavenly Christ
Earl Doherty
Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past
Alvar Ellegård
G. A. Wells

Jesus the Hellenistic Hero
Gregory Riley

Jesus the Revolutionary
Robert Eisenman

Jesus the Wisdom Sage
John Dominic Crossan
Robert Funk
Burton Mack
Stephen J. Patterson

Jesus the Man of the Spirit
Marcus Borg
Stevan Davies
Geza Vermes

Jesus the Prophet of Social Change
Richard Horsley
Hyam Maccoby
Gerd Theissen

Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet
Bart Ehrman
Paula Fredriksen
Gerd Lüdemann
John P. Meier
E. P. Sanders

Jesus the Savior
Luke Timothy Johnson
Robert H. Stein
N. T. Wright


I believe only the last group, Johnson, Stein and Wright, believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Julia,

what great and inspiring has Jesus wrought for humanity?

the Crusades?
9/11?
The holocaust?
WW II?
the burning times?
The inqusition?
Islam? (in response to Jesus's power vacuum)
The man, Jesus, has a more bloody history than Hitler.

Jesus is a failure. Used by deluded folk to consolidate power. As for Judaism, how dumb is the Old Testament? People still read that load of crap? C'mon, get real people.