A Transitional and Transcendent Moment

" themoderate Author Profile Page:

Friend Pagan Place,

""You should be *careful* what oaths you make people swear to, they might just grow an integrity and try to keep them.""

"I proposed no oath. If I had, you would be right. But I just offered a suggestion that the John might be ready to give it a rest and find better things to do."

'Better things to do,' you mean, than just let *you* have your way and your way only, as you claim authority over everyone?

..but it is a political ceremony, is it not??

"I have meant adults on both sides of the equation - radical atheists and radical evangelical Christians, and BOTH had sound minds and reasonable levels of intelligence." What you really mean is that these adults PROFESS to believe in supernatural beings.

Friend Pagan Place,

"You should be *careful* what oaths you make people swear to, they might just grow an integrity and try to keep them."

I proposed no oath. If I had, you would be right. But I just offered a suggestion that the John might be ready to give it a rest and find better things to do.

Mr. Spong,

You may be the most open of all "On Faith" religious panelists and that's why I read your entries.
You are really lacking the animosity of the typical Christian Taliban speech and tunnel vision of other fanatics.

By the way, isn't it remarkable that the only user that tries to discredit you at a personal level comes from a brother church?

"No adult of sound mind and reasonable intelligence believes in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, or really believes in the existence of supernatural beings"

That is really a hoot. I have meant adults on both sides of the equation - radical atheists and radical evangelical Christians, and BOTH had sound minds and reasonable levels of intelligence.

You either are bigoted or don't get out much.

No adult of sound mind and reasonable intelligence believes in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, or really believes in the existence of supernatural beings. Such a belief in gods is sometimes a pleasant fantasy, and always an unbelievably (pun intended) effective fund raising scheme. Thus an inaugural oath should not refer to nonexistent beings, and is a mistake Obama is free to make, but not wise to make.

It may be one of the signs of the Second Coming, but I actually agree with Bp. Spong. Imagine, praying a prayer that as many as possible can respond "Amen."

"No tradition, no ecclesiastical institution, no creed and no person can be said to embrace the ultimate truth of God......"

Poor Spong. He missed his calling as a clergyman in the Universalist Church. At my Episcopal Church, we bow to a cross at the beginning and end of each service. Jesus Christ alone is our deity, our hope, and our salvation. Long live the king.

Bishop,

Despite what they say, it is clear that most people who say they believe in God actually do not, as we can see from their behavior. What they want is affirmation from others that what they have told since infancy is true, when they are afraid that it is actually false. As for needing the endorsement of some Sky Daddy at public observances, that purpose would be served as well by the Tooth Fairy. And as for Jesus, he said don't pray in public like the hypocrites.

IMHO, the Episcopal Church's main problem is that it is addicted to being part of the public religion establishment. The reason why it has had such trouble standing up for the slave, women, poor, gays and against war, killing, stealing, privilege is that it has never stood up for good when it had a cost. This shows that the god prayed to in public is really the $dollar$. So I believe that going along with meaningless public religion is NOT harmless. It has a price. It costs your heart. For what price will you sell your very self?

After all is said and done, a lot more is said than done.

Daniel,
As one who has been and is a member of a Protestant congregation, I have heard more pretentious prayers delivered in the name of God in houses of worship and other gatherings that patronized me and possibly caused God to "chuck it down the pan" upon receipt.
What I believe Bishop Spong is calling for is for the complete blending of cultures in America and for those of us secure in our faith to begin that discussion. It is through great (and open) minds coming together that God's complete will on earth may be finally realized.
My mind was opened more last evening while I attended a discussion between John Meacham and Reza Aslan, in Richmond VA on Faith and Politics. Good points were made by both men, but I most admired their courage in being open with each other and truly LISTENING to each other.

Bishop

Just in case there are several gods and goddesses is not possible and even dangerous that many if not all of these deities will be displeased and rain havoc on us? Maybe 9/11 and Katrina were the acts of some gods or goddesses who were not happy with Bush praying to the one god he believes in?

Methinks Obama should replace the word "God" with gods and goddesses". Dont you agree?

The "moderate:"

"John,"

"Yawn... You still here? Why not go home and smell the roses while ye may?"

You should be *careful* what oaths you make people swear to, they might just grow an integrity and try to keep them.

Even if you decide to 'demote' them from the titles you otherwise insist courtesy demands.

John,

Yawn... You still here? Why not go home and smell the roses while ye may?

If the prayer is a sincere prayer, then I cannot object. But if the prayer is cynical proselytizning propaganda disguiesed as a prayer, or if it is delivered pretenttiously, to demonstrate a sort or Politically Correct adherence to what is proper and acceptable in the eyes of society and man, then I say, "chuck it down the pan."

Dear Bishop, seems God needs a makeover. I like to call him "One Who Is Above All Else". That pretty much covers every beings and non-beings.