Religious Ideology or Rule of Law?

Bishop Spong, thank you for your comments. I was active with my diocesan churchwomen when Roe was decided, and although it was a struggle, I believe we women were secretly relieved when the Episcopal Church recognized the need for legal abortion.

However, I feel quite certain we expected the Church's resolutions to be used for pastoral guidance and not for public advocacy. I was stunned to read in The LIving Church ("Calling for Civility," 2/16/97) that former Presiding Bishop Browning had signed an Interfaith Letter - drafted by the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice - urging the members of Congress not to overturn President Clinton's veto of the proposal to ban the partial-birth abortion procedure. IF it is true that the Presiding Bishop represents the Church to the outside world, he effectively declared its indifference to the fate of the unborn.
I'm sure you are aware that in early 2006 Executive Council formalized the Church's membership in the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and efforts to rescind that affiliation failed at the last General Convention.

Not long ago, Bishop Robinson appeared on the Diane Rehm and
said that the significance of Sodom and Gomorrah was not God's indictment of homosexuality but what happens when " a community cancels its law of welcoming the stranger." If the Epsicopal Church had chosen to welcome both the woman facing a problem pregnancy and the unborn, its Bishops would have the possibility of raising the conscience of the nation it serves

"I don't think that abortion should be treated as murder or even as felony. But there should be some way for society to say (in those cases where abortion is not absolutely required for health reasons), "This particular abortion is not OK with us, and you will have to pay a fine or do public service as restitution."

Why should society have a say? It's my body, and an internal discussion I have with my conscience and my beliefs. the only way for society to even be affected is if society sticks its nose where it shouldn't be. There is nothing to make restitution to society for. On the other hand, who will make up to me for the fear and shame a society of people like you will impose on my life? How different are you than stalkers and rapists who impose their will on others?

Halozcel

Paganplace says **Nobody *likes* abortions**

How do you know ? Did you speak with everybody ?

Thank you very much Mr. Spong for your courageous and clear comments. It means so much in our country to have someone stand up against religious zealotry that would tear our nation apart, if left unchallenged.

"No religion necessary to tell us so. Abortion is tantamount to muder."

You do, however, need a specific kind of religion to claim abortion is tantamount to murder. (Even if the Bible doesn't actually say so, in the first place.) From there, of course, it goes to the notion that 'emergency contraception is tantamount to abortion, which is tantamount to murder,' and then to 'contraception is tantamount to murder' to 'sex education is tantamount to murder,' ....and on it goes.

Bishop Spong has the right of it. Criminalizing abortion brought about heinous social consequences, and didn't help anything. The 'pro-life' religious agenda is assaulting our freedom on as many fronts as it can.

Nobody *likes* abortions, but the way to reduce them isn't punitive. It's in supporting motherhood, and reducing unwanted pregnancies by *empowering* people to make responsible and educated choices about sexuality and contraception and parenthood.

Not claiming, 'It's in God's Hands, we are only responsible for punishing 'sinners' with state power.'

Certainly not in trying to claim, 'Sex is so shameful that it should only happen in untested married relationships or when crushing inhibitions fail or are overwhelmed by intoxicants or desperation.'

The notion of outlawing abortion isn't about babies. It's about *power.* And promises thereof that certain religious radicals promise to their flocks. But what they offer isn't power. Just ignorance and punishment.

Chris said:

"Religious demagoguery and religious imperialism do not add up to morality." I completely agree with this statement, but draw different conclusions. There are just some acts that have always been universally recognized as crimes. Murder has always been recognized as a wrong throughout world history. No religion necessary to tell us so. Abortion is tantamount to muder. It really is that simple and for you to put abortion on the same level as civil rights is beyond me.
I look forward to the day of Christ's return and straighten us all out and makes things right. Oh yes, he will return
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Chris, are you able to see that your last sentence undermines your main point? There are many who are not Christian (I am one) who do not think of Christ as our saviour and who still find abortion abhorrent. When you say that murder is recognized as wrong, you are using the fact that it is wrong in almost all civilized societies and not just in Christian ones. The same with abortion. You need to stop thinking that Christians own morality and ethics. You should encourage non-christians to join with you in fighting abortion and not be so chauvinistic.

Only then can you fight the pro-choicers who claim that in opposing abortion you are imposing your religion on others. Opposing abortion is a universal value, and not peculiar to Christianity.

If you honk your horn on Fifth Avenue in New York, you have to pay a fine of $400. But if some state instituted a fine of $400 for an abortion, the Supreme Court would knock it down as "undue burden."

I don't think that abortion should be treated as murder or even as felony. But there should be some way for society to say (in those cases where abortion is not absolutely required for health reasons), "This particular abortion is not OK with us, and you will have to pay a fine or do public service as restitution."

That would say that America puts human life above horn honking or double parking. At the moment, honking your horn is the more serious offense.

If someone truly believed that killing a fetus immoral, there could be a deep and interesting discussion. Unfortunately, you rarely find such a person. What if you wife or daughter came in having been beaten and raped and is pregnant, would you insist that she carry it to a full term? Are you against the death penalty? Do you believe that war is wrong and you would refuse to fight? if you answer 'no' to any of these, then you have relativistic morals. This being the case, we will need to talk utility. Is bringing a badly damaged child into the world good for your family, country or world? Is your wife's life worth less than a fetus? Is it good that daughter will have a more difficult life and that she could really dislike the child? Then the child would be raised not being loved. A child like that is likely to become anti-social and believe that he is not worth anything and does not deserve anything. Thus we can see the ramifications of rigid morals. Morals are guide post. They show us the direction(s) that we should look to solve our existential problems. Rarely are they meant to be absolute.

Chris: Abortion has not "universally" been seen as equivalent to murder. Millions of good women have had abortions and will continue to do so, no matter what is done to try and stop them. If abortion were really seen as murder, anti-abortion activists would insist on arrest and other criminal punishments for women who have abortions. Nobody advocates that course, because it would be "universally" rejected by society, which does not see abortion as equivalent to murder.

"Dear Readers: We now require commenters to sign in or register at washingtonpost.com. We hope this will encourage more productive discussions. Please go here to complete a FAST and FREE registration form. Thank you for your patience. The editors."

No. No. No thank you. I will just read then. You lose nothing. I lose nothing. Thanks for the invitation to register anyway.

Besides, nothing is that fast nor that free.

Cheers On Faith editors

As ever and a blessed Ramadan to you.

Jihadist

"Religious demagoguery and religious imperialism do not add up to morality." I completely agree with this statement, but draw different conclusions. There are just some acts that have always been universally recognized as crimes. Murder has always been recognized as a wrong throughout world history. No religion necessary to tell us so. Abortion is tantamount to muder. It really is that simple and for you to put abortion on the same level as civil rights is beyond me.
I look forward to the day of Christ's return and straighten us all out and makes things right. Oh yes, he will return.