Faithful Ask Smarter Questions

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Bishop Spong have you read anything by Mordecai Kaplan? It sounds like you are following Feuerbach inverting the subject (God) and the predicate (e.g. Life). While I disagree it sounds interesting.

I just read 'Jesus for the Non-Religious' and was frankly blown away. I'm an old codger with seven adult offspring and fifteen grandchildren. I thought I had seen and heard it all (a common mistake of us ancients. and now I was able to put down this work with a refreshing new outlook and hope for the future. In my humble opinion Bishop Spong is a master of thought and realism and a nonpareil architect of words. I am on the internet this morning in search of other opinions regarding Bishop Spong. I am also ready to go to a gathering of people that practice the tenents he espouses. In the meantime I have a renewed commitment to love, appreciate, understand and 'find' the Jesus in ALL people that I meet.

Secular:
This is preposterous. Damn these believers, this sickens me to no end. The bombastic of these morons claim some kind of moral high ground. Now they think they are smarter too. For these guys who feign such modesty, the are a bunch arrogant punks.

Talking about idol worship, let's take a few minutes and talk about christianity, yes, the Jesus and Mary statues, the crosses hanging up everywhere, that stupid little fish on the back of the car, the whole business. Not only have the Jesus-junkies seemingly broken with the whole graven images prohibition, now it's a national multi-billion-dollar franchise. Things that make you scratch your head and wonder what's Really Going On, here.

Speaking as a heathen-american, I'm a long-time skeptic of organized religion, christian, jewish, muslim, or otherwise, I think you'll find more truth in the bottom of an empty beer can than you will through self-induced eyestrain gained from hours of religious study. Indeed, there could even be an environmental complaint lodged against some of these groups for the sheer tonnage of propaganda they produce, the environmental impact of baring a mountain per year to try and advance the political and economic interests of their various institutions is itself an 'abomination in the eyes of God'.

My position is, 'lets see the books'. Let's have the facts and the numbers on the table, let's check for things like undue influence, conflicts of interest, lay it all out on the table. Jesus tossed the moneychangers out of his fathers' house(look it up yourself), and people these days claiming to want to be closer to God or whatever should critically examine the heritage and seamy underpinnings of their own houses of worship etc.
Integrity's one of those things that's really easy to lose, and hellish to get back... and, multibillion-dollar religious institutions have
no leg to stand on if they can't account for all monies recieved and handled, as well as the conduct of their church leaders and congregation members. The Vaticans' streets weren't paved with gold by accident...some of those 'donations' were doubtless obtained in central and south america at gunpoint/swordpoint etc...let's see the books on the table, please...

Any statement or an essay expounding on god is a total waste of prose. I read it only to show the theists light of the day.

I think that faith is a fact, observable in all healthy human beings. Clinically speaking, lack of faith is depression. All enthusiasm or zest for life, even plodding on in the face of "a sea of troubles" and a certain "bad end" is an expression of faith. It is grounded in significant part on our occasionally being able to see that we live among great and unexplainable wonders, but mostly it is visceral and taken for granted. In the western traditions we name the basis/object of this faith God. We have named it, enshrined it, worshiped, celebrated and studied it. We have also used it for persoanl or class advantage, and, of course, to try to make ouselves gods.

As I see it Spong is on the right track. He is trying to strip off all the self-serving, ugly or (in our worldview) childish, naive, and even cruel elaborations on the idea of God, and to hold up and insist on the naked, stark fact of what we call, and have a perfect right and reason to a call God.

FMartin

When it comes to issues of faith in these matters, I rely on what Romans 8:28 says: "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose."
This doesn't mean that God causes all things to happen, i.e. war and poverty, nor do we make light of these and say, "It must be God's will." What this verse says is that God can take a bad situation and use it for good. If you need to understand what good, could possibly come of such a thing, ask God.

Quotes a 20 yr. old in Iraq most recent letter' God has my faith in his heart too! He is a man willing to lay down his life for his follow brothers and i mean the Iraq's so that they may have a change at knowing God as there own personal savor. Amen'

Well said, VKLIP.

While some may take umbrage at Spong's tone, and many may quibble with the details, the gist of what he said deserves careful consideration. Faith being a belief in something unseen, unprovable, it is susceptible to erosion by waves of doubt that emanate from the storms of life--and the larger the storm, the larger the waves, and (perhaps?) the greater risk to one's faith. That is, I believe, what the question presupposes, and it seems rational.

Spong has taken a different perspective on the question than most, pointing out that faith should not--indeed, ultimately can not--rely its strength and substance on what he has called "external events". (NB: By context, his classification of "external events" would seem NOT to include any happenings twixt a given individual and God, thereby obviating the objections of the commenter Thales above and others.)

Spong's point, while of interest, cannot ever be wholly persuasive, however, due to the simple fact that we humans are sinful, imperfect, and prone to failure, especially when the going gets tough. Which is why the question of how to maintain faith, and use the strength of that faith, in the face of Bad Stuff is important.

"Free will is an illusion caused by ignorance of the true causes of our behavior." Spinoza said that centuries ago, and recent advances in cognitive science support his position.

What does being in a time of war have to do with faith? Did God make the war? Did God cause the war? I don't understand what external events, as Bishop Spong calls them, have to do with faith. If your faith is so weak that it fails because you believe that God caused some evil to happen, then it is, I suggest, simply that your faith is weak.
I recently read a comment that pretty much set out how I feel about/believe in God. If God did/does all the bad things that happen to us - well, any father who did those things would be considered abusive in any court of law. But God doesn't do those things. God gave us the free will and the ability to accept God's grace and act upon it. If we use our God-given abilities to make war or cause harm, then we are not open to God's grace. My faith in God does not depend on what is happening in the world around me, but rather depends on my needing and wanting and desiring to have faith. That has to do with me and with God, and nothing or nobody else. If you don't need or want or desire faith - your choice. But to blame faith or God for what human beings do is what Mencken said about every problem having a solution - usually simple, easy, and wrong. Faith is not easy, not simple, and often hard work. Blaming faith or blaming God is easy, and takes the onus from us.

I think Bishop Spong is saying something valuable, even though I agree his tone is somewhat arrogant.

The question - "How do you keep your faith during times of war" - seems to ask whether you think God should prevent or stop war and its horrors, and if God does not, does this mean there is not a God?

In other words, does God or should God intervene in the affairs of mankind?

I am reminded of events in my own life, and my discomfort (almost revulsion) which grows more intense every time I hear someone suggest "God has a purpose for everything" when something bad happens - suggesting that God has a hand in these events. No. God didn't have a purpose for my father dying at age 59, God didn't have a purpose for a young father of 3 in my church dying of a sudden heart attack, and God doesn't have a purpose for the deaths of our soldiers and of civilian Iraquis every day. If we are to believe that God has a hand in these events, either to cause, or to fail to prevent, then our only choice is to believe in a cruel God, or no God.

We are biological creatures. We live, we die. If we didn't die, we would soon render the earth uninhabitable (which we're working our best to do anyway). People have free will, and often use if for evil. I'm not sure what I really believe deeply, despite being a churchgoer, but at the least, I believe religion can be a force for good, and that it's possible to believe in a God who influences humanity by setting an example of love. It's up to us to follow the example. The Christ of the New Testament didn't come to wave a magic wand and make it all better. He came to let us know that we are loved, and we had better love one another. Our failure to do so is our own fault.

Bravo! You reach your conclusions by assuming your preconceptions accurately determine the identity of your opponents. I didn't think I'd encounter such arrogance aside from Thomas Acquinas, his followers, evangelicals, zealots or other true believers who instinctively know that only they possess the truth! You obviously do believe it possible that someone could be so traumatized by fear, suffering and stress that their faith may be shaken. Go minister to our boys in Iraq, walk boldly into the unknown, and see how well you can stand up to real horror!

Well done, dj. The Bishop has no answer to the problem of evil, nor does anyone else. Despite the "presence" of the God of life, of love, of the ground of Being, our social relations and the universe around us are EXACTLY what we would expect if there were no beneficent intelligence guiding their creation. God's existence is no different from his nonexistence, and so Bishop Spong (and billions of others) must resort to sophistry to maintain his beliefs. "Faith means we do not engage in pious self-deception." Yeah, right.

Spong's answer (according to the title)="I'm smarter than you so I don't have to answer."

Okay, take a breath.

He actually says "This question assumes that faith is related to external events and that believing means things will work out properly in the life of the believer."

I agree with the last part but not the first. Here's why--if faith is unrelated to "external events" all together, then faith is completely self made and reliant upon me. I suspect that Spong would agree, but he would be wrong. If faith is whatever I make it to be, then there is no set of "faithful" people to ask the so-called smarter questions. All faith is the same by this equation since humans are the measure of all things.

Of course, Socrates proved that man is not the measure of all things.

Right?

John, the point you make is fine. That life is hard and you can't expect God to make it all rosy for you. But this isn't much of a discussion point is it? There are much bigger issues around then this. This is obvious to anyone who has lived a little bit of life.

Debating why so many people believe this country was founded on Christian principles when anything but that is the truth is important. Asking people how freedom to practice religion can be fair with Christian led governments run by members who openly believe Christian principles should be part of the decision is important. Gay clergy, women priests...how about how many people have WWJD bumper stickers but judge every gay, every atheist, every Muslim they see.

Life is hard. Woo.

"Only worshipers of an idol of their own wish fulfillment could ask this particular question in the way it is posed."

Fair enough. How about if the question is posed thusly?

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Have you a rejoinder for old Epicurus, Bishop Spong?

Wow, I'm impressed. Mr. Spong has approached an issue about religion that has long been unanswered: is faith simply self-delusion. At last, someone with brains and balls enough to question the question, good for Mr. Spong. Why should war alter your faith? Does war alter physics, or mathematics, or truth of any kind? Does peace alter your faith? If, suddenly, you were given a bazillion dollars, would it change your faith? Do you listen to JC only because he magically fed you some fish?

An interesting quote: Faith doesn't exist until there is nothing left.

Mmmmm....seems you are saying that god is a metaphor.Can't argue with that.
But surely faith is all about self deception.
It is all about trying to believe what reason says is unlikely.
And the religious do not walk boldly into the unknown.They drag their faith along with them
for insurance.
Its the unbelievers who go alone into the unknown.
Faith is for the fearful. It takes courage to refuse
the solace of faith.
I'll take reason over self delusion anytime.

One would assume that one of those 'smarter questions' (that you never mentioned) the faithful ask is "should we be fighting this war?" Or perhaps "are we fighting this war in an unethical and/or immoral manner?" Another might be "is this war making us safer?" Are the faithful asking "were we misled into a quagmire of our own making?"

Everybody, including 'People of Faith' should be asking if the unfairly succesful 'scoundrels' and 'despots' are our own leaders.

Bishop Spong, I always agree with some of what you say, but too often I feel that your tone is highly arrogant, disrespectful, and doesn't really contribute to constructive dialog. I much prefer people like Brian Mclaren and Anne Lamott, because they say what they believe without disrespecting others.

Time to hang-up the keyboard, Sponge Bob.

Put a fork in him, this old windbag is done.

He's turned the Episcopal Church into the Disney Corporation. No mean feat.

Don't worry, you're doing fine.

Oh Snap