Concerns About Church, Country

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"Have you seriously thought through your position?"

Umm, suppose so, Smurf? I'm not sure you actually got where my position *is,* really: I was just observing that calling this bishop 'Apostate' in that way for being progressive sounds pretty medieval, and was saying maybe people should think of what else comes with that sort of talk.

Krusso - fine, don't answer my questions, which of course are the same questions you posed to Bishop Spong, whom I know doesn't share your views of the Bible.

So much for "do unto others" and yet another example of the lack of Christian love I've seen so often on this forum.

Viejita del oeste:
"One of the most harmful forces in the world is the absolute conviction that those who disagree with you have to be either evil or stupid. That kind of narrowmindedness should be familiar to all of us; it comes from both sides of the spectrum."

With all due respect, you are being sloppy in your thinking.
If A calls B evil over an issue such as infant baptism that is not clearly defined, that is absurd. If A cannot call Hitler evil because that would be 'narrowminded', then clearly we have a problem.

Do you really have any interest in thinking this issue through?

One of the most harmful forces in the world is the absolute conviction that those who disagree with you have to be either evil or stupid. That kind of narrowmindedness should be familiar to all of us; it comes from both sides of the spectrum.

paganplace:
"I see now that the Wayback Machine would be redundant."

Have you seriously thought through your position?

"Ah, 'apostate.' I just never get tired of hearing that word...
Anyone wanna live in a world where that's scary again?"

If apostasy really is dangerous, shouldn't you be warned about it? If the tobacco lobby tries to 'prove' cigarettes are actually healthy and that anti smoking regulations are 'repressive', are they automatically correct?

You might theoretically be right, I'm just wondering can you please give at least one argument that causes you to think the was you do, instead of mere assertion?

Maybe you're being brainwashed. Just something to think about...

I see now that the Wayback Machine would be redundant.

Henry,

Making statements and accusations against God proves nothing. At least use reason to make your case.

"The bible makes no claim for speaking FOR G-d but only ABOUT G-d."

Eze 16:1-3
'Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of Man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations. And say, thus saith the LORD God unto Jerusalem ...'

E-Fav,

I do not think that you believe the Bible is the word of God. If that is true the motive of your question is not pure. I ask again, do you believe the Bible is the word of God. If you will not answer I will not answer you.

E Favorite, you say, "Do you think you have the authority to sit in judgment of God's word?"

If someone *follows* and *proclaims* God's word, how can you say they are sitting in judgment on God's word? Has it ever occurred to you that people might only be attempting avoid following the explicit, clear teaching of scripture on numerous points (such as sin and salvation), when they assert that 'truth is unknowable' or 'truth is relative'?

I suggest you try this approach the next time you're pulled over for speeding. 'But officer, I thought it would be arrogant to interpret 55mph literally.'

Strangely Warmed,

All I have to know is that Spong denies the divinity of Christ and His virgin birth. That means he contradicts the living word of God. I will take God's word over Spong’s and yours. Calling me a Zealot proves nothing. Prove to me that no writer of the Bible is being inspired God. Again, people deny the veracity of the Bible because they love their sin more than God.

"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?" (Ezekiel 38:14)

Krusso - you answer my questions, then I'll answer yours.

Ah, "apostate." I just never get tired of hearing that word...

Anyone wanna live in a world where that's scary again?

*setting Wayback Machine and poising hand over button.*

It'll be holy. Really. Wanna?

Krusso, have you ever read one of Jack's many books -- 2 dozen to date -- all the way through? Have you ever heard him preach? Until you do you have nothing of value to impart.

The bible makes no claim for speaking FOR G-d but only ABOUT G-d. No author in the bible claims to speak for G-d but that they are speaking as it was imparted to them about G-d.

The Q'ran, only, claims to be G-d speaking through Mohammed. You sound far more like am Islamic Fundamentalist than a Christian.

It amazes me when undisturbed belief is roused by facts and reason.

You would do well to remember Luke 4:18-29 -- Jesus was treated by the zealots just as you now treat Jack Spong. Jack represents the greatest idelas in the prophetic tradition, so your ire is high praise indeed.

sw

Mr Krusso

Are you telling me to
Go to Hell?

I love you too.

In Christian Love

Henry

Henry James,

There is more manuscript evidence for the Bible than any other work in antiquity. You raise a straw man argument to justify your sinful life apart from God. But you will give an account for your sin and if you are not perfect you will face the wrath of Almighty God. You know God exists because all that has been made including you testify to His creative genius. "The fool has said in his heart there is no God"

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16).

Krusso

The bible is a cobbled together book by a number of different authors, copies of copies often, written in poor style for long stretches (an all-powerful God would be a much better writer), filled with immoral admonitions (keep slaves, commit genocide), and depicting a testy vindictive grump as God for the first five books.

It is the word of a bunch of very fallible humans. Take it from America's Premier Literary Critic.

e-fav,

Do you believe the Bible is the owrd of God?

Bishop Spong, you preach a version of human sexuality that needs a winner and a loser. I say this because the divisions within the Communion that you speak of are not always examples of bigotry or narrow-mindedness. Sometimes, People-of-Conscience read the Bible and do not come to the conclusion that your ideas on homosexuality are endorsed by God. Many of these People of Conscience even graduated from the same seminary that you did.

Yet you feel the need to demonize those who do not agree with you – you say they “do not inhabit the same century that I inhabit.” This language is too small to be that of a leader or a Christian. Do you always get your way by name calling? Is this your idea of the Christian moral high-ground? If so, I fear for the future of the Anglican Communion.

Your Bush-bashing, while certainly trendy, serves you no better. Blaming Bush for any erosion of freedom will continue to be good sport only as long as there is not another attack on American soil. You forget that much of what Bush has done, happened (at least initially) with the consent of Congress and backing of the American People: i.e. The Patriot Act; The War in Iraq. And now, five-years after 9/11, we change our minds and it’s all Bush’s fault. How convenient!

Bush is smart enough to know one thing: any President who is not seen as doing EVERYTHING in his power to stop an attack on the American People will soon find himself (or herself) out of power. That makes Bush smarter than Carter was during the Iranian Hostage Crisis in 1979. That knowledge got Bush re-elected and Carter swept out of office in a landslide. Today, we Bush-bash only because we do not believe 9/11 can happen to us again.

Bush is not the problem, just the scapegoat. Oil is the problem. Every president since the Oil Embargo of 1973 has had an opportunity to wean America off oil. For those keeping count, that’s 7 Presidents over a third-of-a-century. America caters to despots and tyrants because of oil. We compromise our morals because of our hunger for oil. Our oil-dollars finance despotic regimes and terrorism worldwide.

The best we have gotten from ANY of the past 7 Presidents is Carter’s Virtues of Conservation and a lot of talk about future technologies. Brazil, on the other hand, has used this time to build an ethanol infrastructure and is now all but energy independent.

No President is going to bite the despotic hand that feeds us John. Not Obama, not Hilary, not Bush, none of them. Bush had the misfortune to be the man-on-watch when the Towers fell. Study the Carter Administration and you will find that “Turn the Other Cheek” does not work in politics.

Promote ethanol – until we replace oil with something not imported from the Middle East, America will not be free.

I would hope that all men of the cloth would try to be men of reconciliation and grace. Better luck with your next blog.

Krusso - Do you think you have the authority to sit in judgment of God's word?

Who do you think you are? God?

You are an apostate and have denied the faith. Repent and believe the Gospel and you will be saved. Your education, years as a teacher and as a priest will not save you. How can you claim to be a Christian but deny that God's word is the truth? Do you think you have the authority to sit in judgment of God's word? Who do you think you are? God? God says homosexuality is wrong either you believe Him or you do not. If you do not believe His word then do not claim to be a Christian. That is complete hypocrisy.

Ignorance is bliss (and book sales), Sponge Bob.

Do you 21st Century Americans have a
" a pre-modern faith community that will not condemn yesterday’s misguided definition of homosexuality".?

As a non-practicing homosexual (being dead makes it difficult to perform), it seems to me that this characterization is entirely accurate for a portion of the Anglican Community, and certainly for the fundamentalist Christian community.

How dare you tell me I am a sinner because I don't subscribe to your interpretation of an ancient, error-ridden, frequently self-contradictory text that doesn't even have a conception of sexual orientation.

You needn't be shamed because of your ignorance, but you should not be proud of it either.

Spong, you are insane. Why don't you post a Christopher Hitchens - like video commemorating pastor Falwell's passing?

May you meet with someone like Ray Comfort before your passing. Someone who can douse you with the cold water of the gospel to cause you to awaken from your hard hearted slumber.

I still think the liberals in the American Episcopal Church have to have intended the provocation. It can't be a surprise that their "Our way or the highway" ultimatum was rejected by those areas of the Anglican communion whose communities were not yet ready. That doesn't excuse the US congregations who have joined the flight backwards, but coercion, not unity, was the aim of the liberals. I fear that this impatience may not be the best tactic for those who require persuasion.

Bishop Spong said:

"I am concerned that elements in the Anglican Communion who do not inhabit the same century that I inhabit want to force my church into being a pre-modern faith community that will not condemn yesterday’s misguided definition of homosexuality and violate my church’s integrity."

What a delight and a relief to read Bishop Spong's words. At last here is something that makes sense. These are truly words of wisdom that correctly characterize the current controversy between ECUSA, The Anglican Church of Canada and a part of the African Church.

Yes, everywhere even!

It's refreshing to hear optimistic and encouraging words from a realistic though controversial man of God. I wish we had more C of E bishops like him in the UK.