Christianity Fosters Negative View of Sexuality

The bible has many negative views and not just on sex. If you believe it's the word of God then you believe in a God that condones slavery, inequality of women, fantastical punishments, etc. Fornicators don't go to heaven, it's better to marry than to burn, fornication angers God. I could go on...

what idiotic drivel

Yes, but, it is what the person or group does with that discomfort at being questioned that is the difference between the freedoms we currently enjoy in the west and those poor folks in the Islamic world (and increaingly Putin's Russia it seems). Bush and especially Cheney do not like to be questioned (as scapegoat Libby fights for his freedom currently), but they cannot openly imprison someone over it.

And this is the kind of fundamntalism that Jihadist is saying that we must watch for, learn about, and fight against.

Just goes to show Phaedrus, people in power don't like to have their authority questioned. Seems familiar.........hmmmmmm

Of course, extremism can be religious, governmental, or a convenient hybrid. This is from todays Washington Post:

A former college student, Abdelkareem Nabil Soliman, is sitting in an Egyptian prison, awaiting sentencing tomorrow. His alleged "crime": expressing his opinions on a blog. His mistake: having the courage to do so under his own name.

Soliman, 22, was expelled from Al-Azhar University last spring for sharply criticizing the university's rigid curriculum and faulting religious extremism on his blog. He was ordered to appear before a public prosecutor on Nov. 7 on charges of "spreading information disruptive of public order," "incitement to hate Muslims" and "insulting the President." Soliman was detained pending an investigation, and the detention has been renewed four times. He has not had consistent access to lawyers or to his family.

"Return to God and you will be very happy. He waits for you everyday. He loves you very much even though you may think this idea is absurd. If you will turn to God and mend your ways, He will welcome you with open arms and great joy."

AND IF YOU DON'T??? --- HELL FIRE & DAAAMNAAATION

FOR ETEEEEERNITY!!!!!

"Return to God and you will be very happy."

No thanks. Price too high. Any happiness I gain by giving up my mind won't be worth it.

Amen brother Phaedrus

You may be right Marco, and if you look back in the thread you will see that that is what I actually recommended to others re Shearer. But, you can also see that when people began to punch back at the bully, with some force, and ridicule as well, I admit, he slinks away.

Now if it were new info he was spouting, I would think differently, but, it is always the same. There is no light, only heat.

Maybe nothing should be done. It seems the best way to get through to anybody is to let them talk, listen, and then respond with one's own point of view. If the two people can't agree, then they should agree to disagree.

Dear Mr. Conolley,
John:

You stated: "Incidentally, being damned to hell for masturbation was the initial motivation for me leaving the church ...Your threats of damnation are pretty lame compared to what I heard back then, and discomfit me not one little bit."

No one can damn you to hell for that and God certainly doesn't damn you to hell for that. I do not threaten you. I welcome your return to a good and happy life as God wants for you. Return to God and you will be very happy. He waits for you everyday. He loves you very much even though you may think this idea is absurd. If you will turn to God and mend your ways, He will welcome you with open arms and great joy.

Peace,
TKH

I have actually been thinking more about Jihadist's post on the nature of fundamentalism and what can be learned from its display in threads like this one, but also on what should be done to oppose it. I would like to hear some of the others' thoughts on this.

It amazes me how much effect one man's false tirades can generate such a huge response. Just goes to show how some christians and some evengelicals prosper.

I realize that all the attention is still focused on the "brilliant" words of Canyon Shearer, but now that he's retired to licking his wounds, maybe we should get back to discussing the topic at hand. Or maybe not. It sure is fun taking the p**s out of someone, isn't it?

From Canyon Shearer's "sermon":

“He that hates his brother is a murderer, he that calls someone an idiot is in danger of eternal Hellfire!” Posted February 19, 2007 3:51 PM

Mr. Shearer's response to Russell D, 27 minutes earlier:

"You're an idiot..." Posted February 19, 2007 3:24 PM

Enough said?

"The important thing is that people have killed people. Be they communists(120 Million), Evolutionary Atheist Nazi's(63 Millions)..."

Where did these figures come from? They're outrageously exageratted. The Nazis are commonly said to have killed 6 million Jews. If you added ALL the other deaths they caused, I doubt if you could double the figure.

The murder of the Kulaks under Stalin has been estimated between 10 and 30 million. Add a few more million for war deaths and persecutions. I've seen the figure 25 million for the number of people killed during the Chinese Revolution, but I regard that figure as unlikely. Bring in other Communist regimes, you might get up to 80 million total. Indeed, I have a book that I can't be bothered to get up and find right now that estimates all the deaths from all brands of leftism to be about 150 million. That doesn't leave room for the Communists to have 120 mill.

"Evolution says things get better without input..."

Note: the idea that evolution is directional and goal driven isn't from evolution science. It's from a French priest named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. No biologist will tell you any such thing, but it is frequently mentioned by fundamentalist Christians as a way to make evolution look bad. Another red herring.

"He certainly taught us that abusing the normal sexual utility is an abomination to God. Also, denigrating another person for one's own self gratification is simply disgusting."

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me that the God who created the sun, the planets, the comets, the galaxies, and the quasars will wet his pants if I masturbate? Even your understanding of God is incoherent.

Listen, TKH, masturbation is universal primate behavior. We've been doing it since we were monkeys. Surely God made us that way.

Incidentally, being damned to hell for masturbation was the initial motivation for me leaving the church and finding my way to atheism. I took the trip when I was fifteen, and I haven't been sorry for one second in the 40+ years since. Your threats of damnation are pretty lame compared to what I heard back then, and discomfit me not one little bit.

And what about that "denigration" business? The people in pornography are volunteers (leaving aside child pornography and the supposed snuff films which may or may not exist), and do it for the sexual thrill of it as much as for the money. If they want to do it, how am I denigrating them by watching?

"There is not a single scientific fact to back up your theory. I have researched EVERY so called evidence, and none of them support the theory, despite their respective pseudoscientists wanting them to so badly. Chuch Darwin said there would need to be millions of transitionary species/fossils to support his theory. Isn't it odd that there are between 2-6 fossils that your pseudoscientists think are transitions and creationists have proven not to be? Darwin's own hypothesis disproves [etc. etc. etc.]"

This is incoherent. Shearer, talking to you is like shouting down the well. I won't do it any more.

And speaking of brittle exoskeletons and evolution...why exactly would CS's god put more arthropod species on the planet than all other living species combined? As the population geneticist JBS Haldane remarked when asked what could be concluded about the nature of the Creator, "He must have an inordinate fondness for beetles."

Couldn't resist a final evolution tie-in.

Jihadist:

Extremely well-put. You have conveyed the external brittleness of extremism, an exoskeleton that doesn't allow for the evolution of ideas. But, as we know, ideas like all else, will continue to evolve. This is both my hope, and my fear.

Thank you, as always.

Pheadrus,

Precisely. And that is how fundamentalists, inerrantists wins. They never let up, they say the same thing over and over again until you just give up. Here lies the danger. They win if we let them think they win and they become emboldened.

I've seen Canyon's Muslim counterparts in Islamic websites. Some Christian inerrantists like Canyon, also valiantly ventured in the English language Muslim websites, but they never got the ripping that Canyon got here. So, I am rather amused and immuned by Muslim or Christian literalists/inerrantists who do such posts.

Extremism has its limits. They have no place to go once they reach the edge, the limit of their certainties. Either they get pushed, or they jump. More often than not, like Canyon, they back off for a while when it is apparent that many recoiled, to recharge, and come back again with the same message. Canyon will come back, but he will, again, be overwhelmed with reactions to his posts, and then take a relief break, and then be back again.

The trick is to just ignore his posts, or to read them and see where they are coming from. I read them so I will know what is driving them for they do shape and affect public/secular policies. Never under-estimate the commitment, the energy, and the tenacity of one who really thinks he is acting and speaking for God.

And we have to wonder why religious fundamentalism last through the centuries.

I have to break ranks with you on this Jihadist. I think he is a troll who diverts potentially useful threads into being all about him, and then when he succeeds in doing that and expending his limited intellectual arsenal, off he skulks. Predicatble as ever.

Its always the same things:
1. Christians are what I say they are, and you are too.
2. The Bible is all you will ever need, inerrant and complete.
3. Not saved-going to hell, nyah nyah nyah.
4. Any thing that anyone states support for, is automatically a religion and thus, on the same turf as CS. This is especially true for evolution and atheism, both religions.
5. The rules of logic and rational discourse are also what I say they are, or they are just part of the secular scientific religion. For instance, negatives must be proven, not otherwise.
6. There are no points that you can ever make, because my belief system is infallible, blah blah blah. And besides, I will ignore any real point yu come clse to making and come back with juvenile ad hominems. Has to be about me, as you know.

and so on. It was kind of funny the first time around, but ages oh so fast.

Very well put Jihadist. I look forward to another encounter soon. It's not often we can find someone that lights a fire under our collectives asses.

Marco Polo

No. I am not taking bets. Canyon Shearer will be back in another On Faith threads and in full charge after he's tanned and rested.

When he is out, I do miss him. He is the only one who can drive both believers and non-believers up the wall:)

Bill:

Shearer as the Black Knight?, very apt I'd say:

CS: "Its only a flesh wound!"

"What? Your arms off!"

"no it isn't. Come on back, I'll chew your legs off!"

I love it.

I almost feel liberated now, like a great weight has been lifted off my chest. Of course, I guess we'll see how long Canyon stays gone. Anyone taking bets?

I am willing to defeat atheism and evolution as long as you're willing to defend it.

Now that we have abandoned those topics and simply resorted to pointing out how stupid each other are, I am leaving the conversation.

I look forward to conversing with you all in future On-Faith discussions.

Canyon:

Resorting to calling me names all of a sudden? Doesn't sound like the well educated man you are pretending to be.
I don't fight for pleasure, I fight when I am needed, plain and simple. I doubt you've actually been in a fight and won your entire life.

A man who is ready for trouble is more dangerous than a man looking for trouble.

I expect you will come back at me with what seems to you a witty retort, but I assure you, it will be far from it. You seem to know very little about what you talk about. And only saying that there has only been 80 deaths due to Christianity? Are you dense man? One period in 1199 is just the tip of the Iceburg. Friday the 13th was not even the beginning, and sadly, due to people like you and our president, it won't be the last

How in the world did Canyon think the Python scene was related to Russell D.? It fits Canyon more appropriately. I think most of the people on here would agree with that.
I too am here for the fun also. It also seems t ome that even Canyon's follower Jihadist is thinking Canyon needs to shut it. Don't you think it's time to throw in the towel when your own friends start leaving you?

Canyon:)

Should take a break. You are starting to lose what people actually wrote to you in you haste to respond. For example, I asked you on how many versions of the Bible are there, not how many English translations of the Qur'an.

Ease up Canyon my friend. George Santayana defined a fanatic as someone who redoubles his effort once he forgot his purpose.

Russell D:

I'm here for the fun. We need levity to maintain some sanity here:)

Rusty,

I wouldn't go that far to describe you...because that would assume you had the ability to defend yourself in the first place.

Perhaps if that Black Knight twer...I dunno...4 years old, then it could be you.

I love that scene. How very appropriate for you to use that Bill P. Sums it all up

Good Grief! What a fracas that was Phaedrus! Anyway, thank you, it will be helpful despite having to empty the printer tray to get a hard copy.

By the way: Do you remember the Black Knight scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail? Where he kept getting his limbs hacked off by Arthur, but he refused to acknowledge it, minimized his wounds etc.? And then, when he is only a torso on the ground he is still making threats and issuing challenges. As Arthur rides away he is still yelling insults?

Remind you of anyone?

P:

Thanks, Mate, off to give it a look.

Bill,

The best example that i know of would be the jacoby thread on the question of Jesus' divinity. It was in December, and you can find it in the "past questions" section. I have pretty much steered clear of Shearer-infected" threads since, for readily apparent reasons.

The better parts would be towards the end-long thread as I recall- and you will find the stuff about evolution as a religion, why non-believers have to "prove a negative" and so forth and so on. You will have a hoot over "Truth Machine," a difficult customer, but he really hands him his head.

Anyway, hope that helps. You will likely find it repetitive after reading this though.

In response to Mr. Marco Polo's response to my earlier note:

I have not lied. My point is that when man takes a gift from God and turns it into a simple act of self gratification which has nothing to do with the intended purpose of the gift, it is an error.

If we eat more than we need, it is an error. If we drink more than we need, it is an error. If we have sex simply for personal pleasure alone, it is an error. If we view pornographic material to artificially incite an urge for sex, this is a grievous error in many different ways, one of which is the contribution to demoting another human (the object of the photography) to a simple, non-human object of pleasure.

People abuse heroin for pleasure; it is an error. People abuse pot for pleasure; it is an error. People abuse cocaine for pleasure; it is an error. Pornography, an error, not only hurts you, it hurts the other person who has been made the object of exploitation.

If you know you are hurting someone through your acts of self-gratification, you are certainly also knowing that you are not "loving your neighbor as yourself".

Sincerely,
TKH

I have to sign out for a little while.

Bill P., for what it's worth, I assumed you were a Brit as well, from your typing style.

In the words of Homer J. Simpson, "You take forever to say nothing!"

If Phaedrus has been stalking me, that is fine, but I assure you has never seen me lose a debate.

More importantly, do you consider yourself to be a good person?

Phaedrus:

Perceptive there, I am a Brit, though here in the states now. Sounds like you have a bit of experience with our good Mr. S (there are some troll-like qualities there). Please to point me to what you would consider the most fruitful thread for this little scholastic project I'm onto?

My World-View has a definitive answer for the origin and reason of death.

Your World-View doesn't know why death happens, neither it's origins.

Doesn't that concern you that such a major facet of your religion is unknown?

Ok, I liked the compliment. I think its funny how Canyon refers to russell D. now as Rusty. just goes to show, Canyon likes to spin it. Keep spinning brother, maybe you'll throw up and stop one day.
What was your Origin of Death again Canyon? More crap from the Bible? Enlighten me. I need a good laugh.

Rusty,

I almost followed you down that rabbit trail! Nice try!

I also want to know why you guys gave up on the origins of death? Couldn't figure it out? Gave up?

Phaedrus:

thank you for your kind words sir. I am sure that Pastor, Marco and myself appreciate them.
Hey Canyon.......My name is spelled with 2 "Ls".......at least spell a guys name correctly before you insult them.

Phaedrus, was that a joke? Nice one. :)

If you're there, it can't be troll free. Why don't you try to jump in instead of being an instigator?

The thread has now reached the point where Mr. Shearer has drawn the wrath of those with particularly sharp intellectual knives, and the will to use them. Before, it was "Truth Machine," now it looks like "Bill P." (also British?) has drawn a bead. What we will all be treated to at this point is the progressive guttering of his (CS's) candle. When it gets to the "everything is just another religion" argument, and "take this quiz", the basement has been reached.

It is really kind of unfortunate because Baptist pastor, and Russel, and Marco might have brought some light out of a discussion if left to their own devices. Maybe you will have some academic fun with this, Bill, sounds like it anyway.

My best to you fellows, hope to see you on some "troll-free" threads in the future.

"I can't stress it enough! Please, please, please, please, please, please read my posts before saying what you think I said."

Canyon, you should read your own words man, they would do wonders for you.

I am trying to teach you because you are devoid of knowledge. I should go back to warning you. Please read:

Open Air Gospel Sermon
Canyon Shearer
© Dec 2006
For circulation with or without permission; in part or in whole

I only have one sermon, I’ve tried to write others, but I always come back to this one. It’s the one I open-air with, it’s the one I e-mail to friends, it’s the only Sermon I have committed to memory. In my opinion, it’s the only Sermon worth preaching.

I always start with my favorite Bible Verse, that verse being Psalm 19:7, “The Law of God is Perfect, Converting the Soul.” The importance of this verse is the law that it is talking about. In the beginning, there was one law, and that law was, “Don’t Eat the Fruit of that Tree!”1 As we all know, that law was broken, and with that transgression came a new law, a law found written on your conscience2, but also in the 20th Chapter of the Book of Exodus.

That law is the 10 Commandments, and I’d like to go over a couple of them. The easiest of the 10 Commandments to remember and to break is the ninth, which says, “Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness”, in other words, Don’t Lie! Proverbs 12:22 says that Lying Lips are an ABOMINATION to the Lord, Revelation 21:8 promises that all Liars Shall Have their Part in the Lake of Fire! In the 9th Commandment we can see the Holiness of God, because if you lie to a child, you might get away with it, if you lie to me, I might get mad, if you lie to your spouse, you might end up on the couch or divorced, if you lie to a police officer, you’re obstructing justice and you’ll go to jail, if you lie to a judge, it’s perjury and you’ll go to prison, even more strict still, if you lie to your government, you’re guilty of treason, and the punishment is death18! The offense of a lie to God is so much more injurious and so much more condemning that the only just punishment for lying is eternal suffering. But wait! You say, “I’ve told lies, but I’m not a liar.” Lets consider this; if I rape one girl, I’m a rapist, if I murder one person, I’m a murderer; in the eyes of God, if you’ve told one lie, you are a liar, and will face the consequences as such.

Now I know what you’re thinking, you’re thinking, Thou Shalt Not Murder! Now that’s a commandment I know I have kept! But listen to this! Jesus said, “He that hates his brother is a murderer, he that calls someone an idiot is in danger of eternal Hellfire!”3 God is so Perfect and Holy that He sees the intentions and condition of your heart, and on this will you be judged.

Murder is the 6th commandment, lets move onto the 7th. You’ve heard it said of old, “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery,” but Jesus said, “He that looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart!”4 Once again, God is concerned with the condition of your thought life, not just the actions that you pursue in the flesh.

The 8th, and final Commandment I’m going to preach says, “Thou Shalt Not Steal.” Consider this, every tiny thing you have stolen has distanced you from God, be it a paperclip, a pen, a piece of gum, or a song on the Internet, all of these constitute larceny and require punishment!

Now just wait one minute, aren’t the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament? Aren’t we under a new Covenant now? You’re exactly right! In the Old Testament, the punishment for thievery, according to Deuteronomy 24:7, was death! In the New Testament, the punishment for thievery is eternal suffering5! God has taken in the reigns, made His laws MORE strict, not less.

Based on these four, of ten, Commandments we have examined, it is clear to see that the whole world has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God6, and God cannot just let a transgressor go, because He is a good judge, and a good judge will see to it that law-breakers are punished. The Bible says that the depraved nature of our sins has made us a child of wrath7, of disobedience8, of the devil9, an enemy of righteousness9, separated from God10, and doomed to Hell11. This punishment have we earned, and only by the Love of God is it possible to be redeemed and to escape the fire to come.

God became flesh, came to this world which He created, born of a virgin12, lived a perfect sinless life, and was sacrificed for your sins on a Cross overlooking Jerusalem13. In a beautiful, incomprehensible showing of love, Jesus Christ substituted Himself for you, took your punishment upon Himself and died a terrible, painful, humiliating death. Death could not Hold the God of the Universe, and He rose on the Third Day, and Delivered your Soul from Hell14.

In a worldly courtroom, a Judge can let a perpetrator go if his fine has been paid and if he promises not to repeat the crime. In front of the Great White Throne of God, you can be absolved of your crimes, as your fine has been paid in Jesus Christ; repent now of your sins in order to receive the gift of Life so richly given.

Repent, Apologize and Turn from, your Sins today, and trust in Jesus Christ to save you from Hell, like you’d trust in a parachute to save you from Gravity15, don’t wait until tomorrow, the world is a dangerous place and you could die tonight! It is appointed once for a man to die, and then the Judgment16, it is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God17.

Please, get yourself a Bible and read the Book of John, it was written by one of Jesus’ closest friends, and it will reaffirm everything I’ve said today.

References
1- Genesis 2:17
2- Romans 2:15
3- Matthew 5:22
4- Matthew 5:28
5- Revelation 20:12-15
6- Romans 3:23
7- Ephesians 2:3
8- Colossians 3:6
9- Acts 13:10
10- Isaiah 59:2
11- Revelation 20:14
12- Matthew 1:23
13- Luke 23:34
14- Luke 24:76
15- Ray Comfort, “Hells Best Kept Secret”
16- Hebrews 9:27
17- Hebrews 10:31
18- Todd Friel, “Way of the Master Radio”

I like the Baptist Pastor.
That person is a great individual, and probably closer to Heaven than Canyon could ever dream of being.
And Canyon, I was in the service, and I agree with Pastor there, no big achievement.
What's with the pop quiz? Who deemed you the one to teach us? For all this thread seems to be doing, it also seems like it a breeding ground for the one track mind of Canyon Shearer.

Hey, I'd love to start a religion......bet I could make a lot of money from it.

Marco Polo,

The important thing is that people have killed people. Be they communists(120 Million), Evolutionary Atheist Nazi's(63 Millions), or Christians(80 people), the fact is that a lot of people have died because of organized religion(Yes, atheism and evolutionism are organized, stop teaching them in my schools).

That is a wasted argument that Russel D runs to, just like all of his arguments. He should be more worried about his soul than the soul of people who died in 1199.

Do you think you're a good person? Please take the quiz above.

Look folks, the guy could be summa from Harvard or Oxford and his ideas would still be quite ridiculous. Almost makes me wonder if he is not putting everyone on a bit, but he seems to work so hard at it.

Wow! What a terrible wrath I have drawn from you guys.

I didn't say they were good schools, I didn't say what I earned from them, I didn't say because I attended those I was better than you. Because your theology is so whacked all you can do is attack me? Why not read your Bible instead Pastor? Wouldn't that do you and your congregation more good? God knows they must be dying for Godly wisdom which you have abstained from giving them.

Would you please take the pop-quiz above?

How quickly the tone has changed. Not only does Canyon not know history, but he seems to have forgotten all of it. Russell D. wasn;t talking about serial killers you moron. AS for a war in the last 150 years? who cares. It doesn't matter one lick. What matters is that wars happen everyday, and every one of the people who started them believe God is on their side. Take the Iraq war for example. You really think god told Bush to do that? That man lied his way into a war. I know, I was overseas when it happened. I got more information than what was ever leaked over here in the States. The man found nothing, yet went on his mery way to go to war. Ever here of the Crusades? Or the Spanish inquisition? Or how about the Religious jerks that settled this country? Ever ask the Native Americans how they feel about those guys? didn't think so.

Russell D.,

You made the point before I had the chance. For those who don't know the CCAF is the Community College of the Aire Force. EVERYONE who is trained in any kind of Air Force vocational school gets credits from there. Even I have a few from my time in the USMC because I went to my occupational specialty school on a Air Force Base. Like you said Russell, no big achievement.

To be honest, Canyon, you don't mention any credentials that are particularly impressive, especially for this conversation. Embry-Riddle and Arizona State? Okay, I'll admit they are both good schools if you want to be an engineer but what do they have to do with this discussion? Grantham U? That's an unaccredited on-line education. And the MacArthur tie in, well . . . not real impressive. That COULD mean that you attended Masters Seminary (which I doubt) but even if you did all that would do is to explain everything else. What I suspect you mean is that you happen to own a set of the MacArthur Commentary series and/or a MacArthur Study Bible. I will say this, all of this taken together helps to explain the superficial nature of your dogmatic rantings.

I said I was not going to waste any more time on you. I guess I just couldn't help myself. It's kind of like the way that everyone has to slow down and gawk at a car wreck.

Pop Quiz:

1. I have kept the Lord 1st in my heart. True/False
2. I have not worshipped money, nature, or idols. True/False
3. I have never used the Lord's name in vain. True/False
4. I have honored the Sabbath Day. True/False
5. I listen to my parents without fail. True/False
6. I have never felt hate in my heart. True/False
7. I have only pure thoughts about beautiful people. True/False
8. I have never stolen anything, even music. True/False
9. I am truthful in every statement I make. True/False
10. I have never craved the possessions of others. True/False

Shearer, this is not about one's concept of what constitutes a "good person" or not. Face it, with the degree of anonymity these threads provide, there should be no pretense of the legitimacy of appealing to authority. This is all about the ideas posted, and i find yours to be quite close to farcical. But, they also have their usefulness, as it is often better to learn intellectual virtues from evidence of their absence.

Bill P.

Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

Marco Polo,

This isn't difficult to understand unless your brain isn't working. Russel accused me of getting information only from the Bible. Go back and read a bit, you might learn something.

I hope it doesn't appear that Russel D has gotten the better of me, I am quite certain he is the dumbest most self-obsessed person on the board. If it does, then that is a shame on my part.

I can't stress it enough! Please, please, please, please, please, please read my posts before saying what you think I said.

God is not on my side. When I am right, it is because I am on God's side. When I am wrong, it is because I have strayed.

Something for you:
amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=stripbooks&field-keywords=english%20comprehension&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-1_stripbooks_14912364_2&results-process=default?tag2=amd-google-20

Russell D writes of Canyon S:

"All your vast knowledge seems to have taught you well,..."

I do hope that you are saying that with a healthy dose of irony. This guy has vast amounts of several things (merde, for instance), but knowledge is not one of them.

I forwarded several of his posts to my philosophy professor, and he has now given the class an assignment to find all of the logical errors in Mr. S's posts. I think the military would refer to this as a "target-rich-envoronment."

Russel D.

You're an idiot. You haven't put a coherent sentence together in two days. Ad Hominem shows a lack of knowledge, not the opposite.

The top-ten killers in History were Atheists and/or evolutionists. The number one killer in history is atheistic evolutionism. It seems you'd know that if you'd read a bit?

Name a major war caused by Christianity in the last 150 years. Huh? You can't? That's because the non-Christians have started them all.

Christianity, unfortunately, is made up of people. People are evil. Their actions have no bearing on the perfection of the human race.

How many hospitals has your religions opened in the last 100 years? Seems they all have(or had) crosses hanging on them...

You can think you are right all you want, but that doesn't make you an ounce so...

When history, human morality, human understanding, and science back you up, then we'll talk, but until then, you are completely baseless in your ridiculous religion of "Russel Dism."

It seems to me that this Mr. Canyon guy is not very good at getting the point. Bragging about education doesn't make you smart. Using it wisely does. Obviously, you have yet to use your knowledge for anything purposeful. Seems to me and probably everyone else, that Russell D. has gotten the better of you and you refuse to admit it.
Please try to make a valid point, otherwise, you will continue to spout useless dribble all the while claiming God is on your side. Seems that is what most leaders and people who start wars say-God is on there side. But here is a question.
What's to say God even wants to be on your side? I'd be safe to say that He doesn't. he'd probably be ashamed by what you say. Of course, God did put a response on here. He doesn't like you obviously.

Canyon..........in studying, you'd know that most of the blood shed on this earth was in the name of GOD. Does that make Christianity so good? No it doesn't, it makes it a hypocrite. Violene has always been the way Christianity dealt with anything it deemed wrong. And for you to infer that you'd want to kill me just goes to show that once again, you have read it wrong.

All your vast knowledge seems to have taught you well, yet you still are a child when it comes to anything of importance-you don't understand.

P.S. I wouldn't brag about the CCAF........not a big achievement there buddy.

Russell D.

Point taken, you are human. The Bible says, "There is none that doeth good, no not one." Does that concern you?

And I'd make the point, no-one can beat me because I'm right. See Romans 8:31.

My knowledge comes from a myriad of places, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Arizona State University, the CCAF, Grantham University, worldly experience, John MacArthur's 30-years of indepth study, and last but most, the Bible.

If you have ever felt in danger that I might kill you, I think you might want to find a doctor that can treat your paranoia.

You love thinking that Christianity is evil. Actually, humans are evil, and without Christianity, we end up with far more death and destruction than otherwise.

Please, just open your eyes for two seconds and realize that you are 100% wrong in all things. I was there, I was you, I opened my eyes; it's a much more enjoyable experience to actually know things (Especially God) than to think things are unknowable.

Now, every time I walk down the street and see one of those guys with the sandwich board placards on that say "The End IS Near!! Repent, Jesus is LORD!!" I am going to wonder, "is that Canyon Shearer?"

Ok, here's what I see.......you still aren't learning anything Canyon. Sorry, but there are books outside of the Bible to learn from. Just because I read something that enlightens me doesn't make it a cult book. The fact that I do things like partake in sex and alcohol and the occasional marijuana(which by the way, is probably the only natural drug on the planet), doesn't make me a hedonist. It makes me human. You seem to have a one track mind, and that makes for poor arguments. Nobody can beat you because you refuse to listen. You hold your fingers in your ears and scream.........it is not a very admirable trait. Being human and having fun don't make a person evil. The only way I get labelled that way is bcause of unenlightened people like yourself, you assume that they know everything, and yet know nothing because all your knowledge comes from the Bible, which is itself a book written by men who made mistakes. You are the people the rest of the world hates and deplores. You are the kind of person that would fit in well with the middle ages. You would be great at it. Kill all who don't believe what you believe. Maybe you're just living in the wrong century. Poor guy.

Bill P.

Explain to me where the rock layers came from.

Marco Polo,

Pornography and legitimate consensual sex have very little in common. For you to associate the two is kind of disturbing.

Russel D,

Reading your cult material doesn't make you learned...

Why would you associate religious priests to the truth of the Bible? Abstinence in the Priesthood has NOTHING to do with the Bible, yet you truly want it to; so you could be right. But you haven't been right yet, it must be a wasted existence you live to always be wrong.

Read Isaiah 58:1; after you're finished, read the rest of the Bible.

Bill P.

Most cult members run from those who accuse them of being in a cult. So, hey, enjoy your pseudoscience cult.

To Bill P. :

You are a very wise man. I have no love for Canyon Shearer. He is an idiot. If I still had an Angel of Death, I'd send him to his house.

CS: Now you went and got me interested. In your posts on this site to date, 15-20 minutes time on my part revealed examples of these logical fallacies:

Argument from Ignorance, Begging the Question, Affirming the Consequent, Post hoc, genetic Fallacy, Appeal to Antiquity, Appeal to Authority, and the Appeal to Consequences. In other words, you write absolute rubbish.

Now, why would anyone waste time on you now?

buh bye, poser.

Canyon:
I do research my stuff, unlike you , whose factoids have been disproven by everyone here. I spend free time studying. I study books, culture, religion, and above all I study people. You are the classic case of closet self-loathing. You take everything said and turn it into something negative and then tell me and other people that we need to be save and are going to Hell. Seems to me like you are judging, and according to your Bible, that isn't your job.

I do not need to quote scripture to back up my tirades, because I go and actually look my stuff up, and I can make a good argument for it because I am not blinded by my molesting priests. Maybe you should take a good long hard looka t yourself and who you are around. Maybe you'd find out that you need to change. Although, I seriously doubt that you could ever be convinced of anything other than your own sefl dillusions.

Canyon Shearer:

I never said there were benefits from porn, just saying that it is not such a bad thing. For you to portray it that way may suggest that you are a prude and have yet to have a great sexual experience. You seem to be nothing more than obsessed with your own version of things. It makes me feel sorry for you and I wonder if you have nay friends

(laughing) OK, let me get this straight. You throw this grossly illogical statment out there, you get called on it, and someone else has "degraded the thread.?"

What a putz!

Russel D.

Why don't you research this stuff? I can tell that you REALLY want your opinion to be right. The truth is nothing backs you up, except other ridiculously self-indulgent people.

Bill P.

Thank you also for being an idiot. You've degraded the thread with your worthless post.

Marco Polo,

Porn is the 20th century's version of being a peeping-tom. You are watching someone elses most intimate moments. It is selfish, it is self gratifying, there is no benefit, you don't feel better afterwards, you hide it from your friends, you'd be ashamed to discuss it with your mother, it is detrimental to relationships...

What are the benefits?

CS:

"If the world were 100% under-water, what would we expect to see? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the Earth. What do we find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the Earth."

Dude! Thank you so much. I have an exam coming up where I have to provide an example of the "Affirming the Consequent" fallacy of causation. This is perfect! Thanks for being such an idiot!

Canyon:
"Wanting something to be wrong, and it actually being wrong, are two completely different things"
I couldn't have put it better myself, and yet you are basically insulting yourself. That line perfectly describes your words and proofs for this entire thread. The Bible is not inerrant, it is as flawed as the individuals who wrote it. If you were to actually look at the Bible, you'd see what I mean, but you don't see, because when it comes to the Bible, you are blind.

If I were to say that I was Jesus, reborn, would you believe me? Probably not. If I had long hair and a beard, would you belive me then?Nope, not then either. I have aproblem with the Bible because it was writtien by people who weren't there, and who only wanted to mold society to their standards.

Please don't tell me you actually believe Jesus was a white guy too, cause that would be icing on the cake.

Jihadist,

There are 17 English version of the Koran...what's your point?

God is Just, Trustworthy, Jesus Christ, and Loving.
Allah is Unjust, Whimsical, Inhuman, and Indifferent.

I don't know how you could say the two are the same? That's blasphemy.

Rafael,

About the time I turned 8, I lost the imagination to believe unconditionally in evolution. Your preachers replaced that imagination with lies concerning vestigial organs(there is no such thing), fossil record(there is no such thing), accurate dating methods(there is no such thing). Once I realized that evolution is 100% imagination and 0% science, it was easy for me to throw it right out the window. When you grow up and lose the necessary imagination, then you can be saved from your religion.

I did explain why death disproves evolution; it may be over your head, I'm sorry. Evolution says things get better without input, that information can be written to DNA. Entropy says that things die, that information is lost, that DNA is destroyed. The two say exactly different things. Death can only be explained with Christianity, evolution simply uses a premade concept to try to make their random theory fit.

When you read the Bible in order to make it say what you want it to say, it's called Proof Texting. When you look at the 1/1000000000000% of evidence that could support evolution, you are Proof Texting the evidence. Why don't you pull back and look at the 100% of evidence that refutes evolution?

I see you've backed out of the discussion on why death happens. It seems as though you'd want to know that to figure out your lie-filled theory?

Russel D.

This matters because there is a lot riding on the issue.

Your misunderstanding on the Noah account is flawed, to say the least. In all ways testable, science confirms a global flood...doesn't that concern you?

If the world were 100% under-water, what would we expect to see? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the Earth. What do we find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the Earth.

Please read the story, then come back and realize how wrong you are. Also, look up your contradictions, there isn't a SINGLE one that holds up to scrutiny. The Bible is inerrant.

Wanting something to be wrong, and it actually being wrong, are two completely different things.

TKH,

Are we to believe that you don't like porn? That you are repulsed by sex? You sir are denying who you are. If you are a woman, than that's fine, but women get turned on by porn almost as much as men, and if you are a man saying you are not inot porn, you must be lying.

With all due respect to everyone who has posted on this board(Canyon included),

What does all this really matter in the long run? I have read and looked, and laughed and wondered at the responses here, and I can only come to one conclusion: We are all F%&^$*g crazy!
it seems that Canyon and John M. are two sides of the same coin, and it seems that most people here want to throw that coin back in the lake.

Whatever the opinion, we must at least agree on one thing, no matter how it goes in here, we can't help but be compelled to respond. That is what makes it so great.

And one little tid-bit bout those who think the Bible is a history book. One part, in particular, the flood-you know, with Noah and the animals, is actually borrowed from Babylonian stories. Look it up, I did. And I for one have a hard time believing a retiree is going to build a big enough ark for all those animals by himself before he dies......

And some of the stories contradict each other. It seems to me that a History book should be written by people who ived through it, not heard about by playing the "telephone" game.

RE: John Conolley and his remark that he likes pornography...

All - God, our Creator, gave us gifts and free will to choose to do good or to do bad with those gifts. Those who choose poorly (i.e., for the primary purpose of self gratification) will be judged accordingly.

It is not good to live in this world for yourself. It is not good to abuse a gift from God. Seek the Truth and live accordingly. Jesus the Christ has already laid out the Truth for us. Many choose to distort that truth for their own purposes. The Divine Author of the Bible calls these people "False Teachers". Please do read the New Testament with a wholistic view of our Lord's teachings.

He certainly taught us that abusing the normal sexual utility is an abomination to God. Also, denigrating another person for one's own self gratification is simply disgusting.

You know the Truth and choose through free will to ignore that Truth. You can repent now and correct your ways or wait to be judged by Jesus Himself. But, if you continue, you're just showing how you really don't care what God thinks. He knows this, too.

Sincerely,
TKH

Canyon,

You said : "I know many want the Koran to be a part of the Bible; unfortunately it desperately fails the canon, contradicts ALL of scripture, and promises things that would cause the fall of Heaven. It is unlikely in the theological realm to say it is a reasonable method of Heaven-attainment, and in the common sense arena, it just makes me giggle."

LOL. I'll see you in hell then my friend, who is as witty as ever. What to do? I am only one of the Antichrists whose soul you have to save. By the way, let me spell the Muslim Holy Text as Qur'an not Koran. Like "center" is American English spelling, and "centre" is British/Commonwealth English spelling. Don't want to be hair-splitting about that. After all there are also many versions of the Bible. And you say "tomayto", I say "tomahto". You say God, I say Allah (Arabic for God) or Tuhan in my mother tongue.

See you. Have fun my friend:)

Canyon, pardon my efforts, it takes a lot of words sometimes to explain complicated ideas. Apparently you lack the will or the intellectual power to take on such ideas, because as always you come back with nonsense about science being pseudoscience, there is no evidence, etc. Do you find your own rants convincing?

You don't say why death disproves evolution, you just say it. Your approach suggests that you feel assertion offers a more powerful path to understanding than does the scientific method.

By your answer I see that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution predicts. You equate death with things "getting worse," but from an evolutionary perspective, the only thing that promotes greater representation of genes and traits, the driving force of natural selection, is a greater number of descendents with those genes and traits. As I explained, death of an individual can increase that number, and can therefore be favored by evolution.

If you don't understand something about the explanation, feel free to ask a specific question rather than launching back your standard and general nonsense. I don't make the offer for you, because you've shown time and again that you have no interest in learning anything, but perhaps someone else will benefit.

TO CANYON SHEARER,

Your analogy to a microwave is incorrect. In my instance, the correct analogy would be the microwave was built incorrectly and never worked properly and never will.

Jihadist,

As always, it's a pleasure to converse with you.

I wish we had all received different versions of the Word, I wish more than just Christians were going to Heaven. That would be a pleasure.

But to analogize it; we're all trying to get to the moon. Hindus are sitting in a rowboat, Muslims have boarded a train, Buddhists are meditating on the journey, Catholics are retrofitting a 747, Humanists have taken up shovels...only Christians have tickets to the space-shuttle equipped lunar lander.

There is only one way to the moon, there is only one way to Heaven. The religions of the world may have a lot in common with each other, but only one is equipped with atonement, propitiation, and saviour.

In order to see Heaven, you need atonement, propitiation, and saviour. If your religion is equipped with these, I look forward to seeing you in Heaven.

I know many want the Koran to be a part of the Bible; unfortunately it desperately fails the canon, contradicts ALL of scripture, and promises things that would cause the fall of Heaven. It is unlikely in the theological realm to say it is a reasonable method of Heaven-attainment, and in the common sense arena, it just makes me giggle.

Canyon Shearer :)

I see you are in good form and in full swing here.

Always enjoyed your work here in these On Faith threads regardless of whether as a satirist in excelis or a literalist in extremis.

Don't worry too much as to whom will go to heaven or hell or to save anyone's soul. God, the Almighty and Allknowing will decide, no? After all, we all received versions of the word of God. Only God knows the true, the right version eh?

And don't fret too much about the Rapture too. Pat Robertson is already praying, hoping and trying to hasten it. In the meantime, think about the rupture of sex. Sex is good. Don't be a prude. But not with your neighbour's wife though -thou shalt not covet your neighbour's wife. Having sex with her is a sin, but with your wife, it is sacred, no?

Good to see you here. Well, I may go hell, burn in hell, but who is to know for certain, right? :)

Rafael, you sure used a lot of words to say, "I don't know."

Death disproves evolution. The fact that things consistently get worse is the exact opposite of the idea that things can ever get better.(Without external intelligent input)

Science does have the tendency to throw out bad theories, evolution will be soon, maybe 15 years? The biggest problem with the pseudoscience of evolution is that you WANT it to be true, so we have the issue of defeating a stupid theory and a bad religion.

Science is devoid of religious input, such as gravity, it is observable, measurable, and repeatable. If you said gravity was the result of evolution, and I said it was the result of little green men, it wouldn't make an ounce of difference if it actually happens. Evolution is a religion because it is not observable, measurable, or repeatable. There is no evidence to support it, you can't show it to be true in the laboratory, common sense laughs at it. I say it doesn't happen, you say it does. Our scientific examination sides with me, it doesn't matter the alternative, the fact is that evolution doesn't happen.

You(and your pseudoscientists) can't remotely imagine how life could have started if evolution is true, and you don't know why death occurs, and in the middle, there is no evidence for evolution.

What an impressive amount of faith you have, you don't know the beginning, the middle, or the end, but you still cling to it with all your heart and soul.

Canyon, scientists don't worship science--how can one worship a method? Science does provide a method that allows me to apply my rationality. In contrast, religion seems to provide a means for you to do little more than practice your irrationality.

You say you are a great lover of science, but you seem to profoundly misunderstand it. Is there a reason you would expect science to have already discovered all the planets of the solar system? New information is coming in all the time, and our understanding is improved by that information--I would expect you operate by similar principles. Is there a reason that, at some fixed point in time, you would expect science to have collected all the answers?

To claim that science has not provided advances in medicine or given insight into the origins of the universe or of living organisms is just plain ignorance. And it is not the realm of science to prove or disprove God or Thor or Flying Spaghetti monsters. It addresses only the natural world.

Canyon asked a great question for a scientist to address--"why do things die?" Thanks Canyon!

John C. mentioned only one hypothesis about why things die (or senesce, which is aging to the point of death). Let's call his entropy idea the physiological hypothesis--the idea that physiological systems eventually just wear out. While partly true, the full answer turns out to be even more interesting--death is actually favored by natural selection.

The idea best supported by data--I'll call it the tradeoff hypothesis--starts with the idea that early reproduction is favored, all else being equal, for two reasons. First, lineages that tend to reproduce earlier have faster rates of geometric growth, leaving more descendents per unit time than lineages with later reproduction. Second, modes of death other than senescence happen, and it's obviously better to time reproduction to occur before death than after. As a result of both cases, genes that tend to promote early reproduction will come to dominate in the population because of the dominance of early-reproducing descendents--the essence of natural selection.

So, any genes that promote early reproduction will be favored, and here is the key: even if the organisms that have them suffer some tradeoff, in terms of later reproduction and survival. That is, genes that promote all the physiological activities necessary for early reproduction (even if you never actually reproduce) are favored even if those activities ultimately wear out the body. Hence, organisms (and this has been demonstrated in organisms as different as fruit flies, plants, and possums) suffer the costs of entropy mentioned by John because evolution favors it.

The evolution of senescence is a fascinating and active area of evolutionary biology with a beautiful set of ideas (to the scientific mind) for understanding how the natural world actually works instead of how we would like it to work.

John C.

There is not a single scientific fact to back up your theory. I have researched EVERY so called evidence, and none of them support the theory, despite their respective pseudoscientists wanting them to so badly. Chuch Darwin said there would need to be millions of transitionary species/fossils to support his theory. Isn't it odd that there are between 2-6 fossils that your pseudoscientists think are transitions and creationists have proven not to be? Darwin's own hypothesis disproves evolution.

I'm glad you think that entropy is why things die. Entropy says nothing gets better, evolution says some things get better. Entropy is the opposite of evolution. If entropy is true, evolution is not. If evolution is true, entropy is not.

Entropy is a law, evolution is a theory. Which is true? The Law or the Theory?

The reason I asked the question is because science is oblivious to the origins of death. Once you understand death, you understand sin, you understand Hell, and you realize you need God.

You have blinded yourself to the cause of death because it speaks of the judgement of God.

How are you going to look on that day?

Mr Conolly:

If you really want to see evidence of the futility of trying to hold Shearer (he also posts as "Anti-Luminous" at times) to any standard of reasonable discourse, take a look at the Jacoby thread for the question about Jesus' divinity.

We aren't talking about evolution? You yourself mentioned evolution and tried to make it look as nebulous as creation.

What do you mean by "research" it? I thought we were "discussing" it.

I wasn't trying to prove it to myself or others. The existence of evolution is undeniable and easily observable.

"The theory"

That's a red herring. The theory of evolution isn't that evolution exists. The existence of evolution can't be denied by anyone with even a passing knowledge of biology. The theory of evolution is an attempted explanation of how it works, and there still are a couple of problems with the prevailing theory, natural selection. Nevertheless, there is considerable evidence that supports it, and a little rooting around on the internet should turn it up for you. The evidence that evolution exists is massive. It's written in every leaf, in every bone, in every dog, cat, and human being. I'm telling you, if you look, you have to see it.

Why do things die? An abstract answer is, the increase in entropy. Things (such as cardiac arteries) get worn out. They accumulate posions, they suffer from cosmic rays, they clog with waste products, and they stop functioning. Everything wears out, incuding living things. But I seem to be belaboring the obvious. Why did you ask that question, anyway?

John, we aren't talking about evolution here; please research it elsewhere, I'd like you to try to prove it to yourself before you try to prove it to others. No evidence has ever been uncovered in the history of the theory to support it.

Without trying to drag evolution or creation into the conversation,

Why do things die?

Shearer, that was pretty slick using "faith" as a zeugma (sorta) to equate creation and evolution.

Listen, Bub, they aren't the same kind of thing. While it certainly takes faith to believe in creation in the face on the whole edifice of scientific knowledge to the contrary, it doesn't take any faith at all to believe in evolution. It just takes a little rational knowledge. I minored in Botany in college, and even that little exposure to the life sciences showed me that evolution is an undeniable fact, almost as obvious as the color of the sky.

Go down to your local college and take a course in plant taxonomy sometime. Evolution will jump out at you.

"Science hasn't cured death, hasn't cured AIDS, hasn't cured cancer, hasn't cured the common cold."

Maybe not, but let me tell you what science has done:

It has beaten the borderlands of death way back. As Ray Bradbury points out, there was a time when, to visit your family, you went to the graveyard. Human beings were built to live to about the age of 27, and once did so. Now they live to nearly three times that. Infections that were once a death sentence are now a minor matter. And science seems to be on the verge of beating death back significantly farther with DNA research.

Science hasn't cured AIDS, but people with AIDS are now living decades rather than two or three years. If you don't appreciate that, I'm sure they do.

Science actually has cured a good amount of cancer. Cancer is a name for a number of deseases, many of which aren't a threat anymore.

Science hasn't cured the common cold. You got me there. But science has gained a significant understanding of the common cold, which turns out to be about 200 different diseases. That makes it awful tough to cure, but the time is coming, pal. The time is coming.

Yes, I hold science in high regard. Certainly higher than your prattling about creation myths that never were intended to be taken literally. But then, understanding them as they were intended would actually take some kind of ability in abstraction, which you've proven you lack.

Phaedrus,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. We've given far too much attention to Canyon Shearer already. I will take your implied advice and no longer give his hate-filled and bigotted arguments credance by responding to them. And to be honest with you, if it WERE true that people like Canyon Shearer were the only ones that were going to be in heaven I'm not so sure that I would want to go anyway. Can you imagine spending eternity with that!?

"I think everyone who has posted on this site would agree that our world is degenerating morally, politically, economically."

I wouldn't agree. The Berlin Wall came down. Castro is deceased. Red China is slowly, slowly finding its way toward freedom. In the U.S., racism is significantly abated, at least in its effects. Homosexuality is no longer an automatic ticket to a beating. Christianity has lost its grip on popular culture (remember when The Flintstones and Top Cat were offered as adult entertainment, because real adult entertainment wasn't permitted?), and very slowly losing it's grip on the country. Granted, we have a Christian fundamentalist in the White House, but I believe this has been a horrible example to enough people that it won't happen again.

I believe human beings are capable of learning from the past, and that they're doing so, and that the general trend is toward improvement.

Baptist Pastor and Anonymous and others;

I have been purposefully avoiding the topic of origins; it has proved in the past to make for extremely long, unfruitful conversations, and I would appreciate, in the name of conversation, that we don't mention it again. I admit it takes a lot of faith to believe in creation, it takes a lot of faith to believe in evolution; none of us were there. So lets please avoid this subject.

Anonymous, please post your ideas on the laws you are speaking about, I'm more interested in hearing your interpretation than you are at hearing mine.

Baptist Pastor,

The exact reason you are not going to Heaven, is because you don't believe the Word of God. Please read John 1:1 and 2 Tim 3:16. The reason you choose to be deceived by Gen 1 and Gen 2 is because of 1 Corinthians 2:14. A true theologian has no issue harmonizing those two accounts; but more importantly, if that was actually an error, don't you think we'd have record of people trying to edit it out and change it and perfect it? No, it is the same today as it was before Christ, the reason for that is because it was perfect when it was first written down, and perfect today. When you become more than a natural man, then you will understand it.

Male or female, sir, you are not saved, and I hope I've maybe opened your eyes a bit to your impending doom.

Anonymous; Baptist Pastor has succumbed to the oldest conquering techniques in History; divide and conquer, and the seed of doubt. It is how the Devil has taken 99% of people to Hell, it is why our Pastor friend will see Hell as well. It does not surprise me one bit that an unregenerate Pastor and myself would be divided on our theology, for mine is that of the Bible and his is his own.

Jesus by no means accepted all as His own; He is willing to accept all, but by no means does He accept those who hate Him. I'm not sure where your idea got roots, the thief on the cross opposite the repentant one is in Hell, also see Luke 16:24-25.

Repentance and Faith are the only way into Heaven. Not asking Jesus into your heart, not decided Jesus is God, not making Him your Lord and Saviour. He is your Lord, and through Repentance and Faith, He will be your Saviour.

Other Anonymous,

I don't have to prove a cliff is real in order for it to kill you. I don't have to prove a semitruck is real for it to run you over. I don't have to prove a sword is real in order for it to cut your head off. It's in your best interest to find out if there is a God that is going to judge you.

Thank you most of all for your bigoted responce to our bigotry. Very ironic and comical.

John M.

That is a reasonable attempt at harmonization; although I take a different view all together. Gen 1 is the Microview, Gen 2 is the Macroview. A major issue is that the chapter breaks are not God's Word, they have been inplemented later. Chapter 2 should start at verse 4; I'll never understand why they broke it at verse 1.

The creation of the plants and animals after Adam was in the Garden of Eden. Outside of the Garden, animals had been roaming and plants growing for several days. God did this in order to show Adam His absolute sovereign power, and that He wasn't just taking credit for the universe's existance.

I like your take on the anesthesia; I've never loooked at it that way. The most important scientific thing about that event is that the rib is the only bone in the human body that will grow back in full.

Rafael,

I do not pick and choose which portions of the Bible are true, your question would be better asked of Bishop Spong and the unsaved Pastor.

What I would like to know is why you worship science and hold it in such high regard. Last I checked, Science hasn't cured death, hasn't cured AIDS, hasn't cured cancer, hasn't cured the common cold. They haven't solved the issue of origins, they can't disprove God, then can only close their eyes when science proves God.

I am a great lover of science myself, but I do not hold it as my god. Science means knowledge in Greek, and all science backs up the Bible. Unfortunately science is extremely lacking and faith still drives the day; be it faith in science, or faith in God.

If you can, please remember back to the last time science had a major error uncovered. The latest one I can think of is that science didn't even know how many planets there were until 2006...and you're still putting your faith in it?

I asked you this question because I am honestly puzzled by how anyone can rationalize these contradictions and then use them to build an argument, as you have. Unless faith means, "willful, highly selective rejection of our understanding of the world in order to conform to outdated thinking written in an ancient book," then I think my question has value for this thread, which I did not perceive as a private discussion.

I did not choose to disregard, but now it seems that you have.

Rafael:
I was responding to a Baptist Pastor, who has faith. My comments were for him. You can disregard them if you like.

John M.,

Can you explain why people choose to remain faithful to such selective portions of a 2000 year old understanding of the natural world? I assume that every day you reap the rewards of our more modern interpretations, through advances in manufacturing, transportation, communication, all gained from our gains in understanding derived from physics, chemistry, biology, geology, and astronomy. Nearly every aspect of what you rely on in life has been changed from what it would have been 2000 years ago by what we now understand better through science and can apply through technology. And yet, you and others persist in believing creation myths that we know to be false through the same scientific methods that have been used to achieve these other advances.

Through your creation myths, you are determined to throw out not only evolutionary biology--along with volumes of accumulated evidence--but also the fields of geology (and all evidence of historical changes in land form and repeated transgressive/regressive cycles of sedimentation), physics (and the laws of elemental decay and methods of radio-isotope dating), and astronomy (and all evidence for the age of the earth and the universe). In short, these ancient ideas involve not a debate about the location of some bones in the ground, but a wholesale rejection of our modern understanding of the world and how it works.

Allow that part of your brain to join the rest of it, and us, in the 21st century. You'll find that your rational and spiritual sides will seem a lot less conflicted when there is no requirement to hold on to outdated, selectively protected ideas.

"When healthy sex is repressed pornography is inevitable.
It is these repressive attitudes that have come back to haunt us in such destructive manifestations as the denigration of women, the systemic abuse of children and the cultural negativity toward gay and lesbian people." --- JOHN SPONG

Your statement seems to lump pornography in with child molestation & abuse of women & all negative repression of healthy sex.

Pornography, by itself, is merely a form of communication. It's purpose is to create sexual arousal. Being sexually aroused is not a negative in & of itself.

I disagree with the idea that all pornography is bad. That's saying all sex is bad if it's viewed by another person.

This society has repressed sex for so long, I don't think we can tell what is healthy. How can a society that is based on a European Catholic - Protestant anti-sex attitude be healthy, or even know what is healthy?

Folks, most of you are likely figuring out that Mr Shearer has a particular M.O. He comes on a thread, makes his statements, monopolizes the content from that point, and gets a lot of attention. Eventually he will move on.

However, I am not too sure that he doesn't actually believe the things he writes, and there are others out there like him. For those who would like some insight into the mind of the Taliban, or even much of the Islamic world, read Mr S. and make the necessary substitutions of "Koran," "Allah," and "Muhammed."

Mostly though, Mr. Shearer is like what Eric Idle once said about Australian table wines; "This is not a wine for drinking, it is for lying down and avoiding."

---in 2:21 God performs surgery on Adam under general anesthesia, a concept that would not be invented by man until thousands of years later! Who would have dreamt up that idea back then? This is evidence that God wrote this book,---

OH boy!

In the 21st century people think that this laughable fantasy is real?!

And why is this completely unproven fantasy taken more seriously (it runs entire lives and even countries!) than fairies, elves, aliens or even Scientology!???

No wonder the world is in such a state when such delusion runs and controls people and how they live their lives and how they react to other people!

Baptist Pastor:

I would like a crack at your question about Genesis. You wrote: "In Genesis 1:1-2:3 the Bible tells us that God created the plants, animals, etc. and then created man and woman. In Genesis 2:4-25 the same Bible tells us that God created man then plants then animals then woman."

Some have observed what you observe and have concluded that the first two chapters of the Bible contain two different mythical explanations of creation. I actually don't see a conflict as I will attempt to demonstrate.

Genesis 2:4 tells us that no vegetation has SPROUTED up because there was no rain yet and streams were watering the ground. This verse does not say that God did not create plants yet. It says the opposite: They were already created, but the seeds God created had not yet germinated. Skip to verse 8 - God HAD PLANTED (past tense) a garden, and now He puts Adam there. Verse 9 reaffirms what I said about verse 4: It says God made all kinds of trees GROW OUT OF THE GROUND. See? He did not plop trees and grass into the ground; He planted seeds, which eventually grew. In chapter 3, we see Adam and Eve eat from the wrong tree. We have no idea when that happened. It could have happened years later. No one but God knows when the fall happened.

As for the animals, verse 19 of that second chapter says God HAD CREATED them; now, He asks Adam to name them. So, again we see that God had already created everything before He created man and woman.

I'll digress for a moment to point out two cool things. First, in 2:7 God has to breathe life into the man He created. Scientists might some day be able to synthesize and assemble organisms in a lab, but they will be dead organisms. Only God can create life. Second, in 2:21 God performs surgery on Adam under general anesthesia, a concept that would not be invented by man until thousands of years later! Who would have dreamt up that idea back then? This is evidence that God wrote this book, including this chapter. Putting these two observations together, we see that God created all things and God wrote this book.

Pastor, God's word is so amazing you can pick it apart and discover wonderful truths at every turn. It hold up to scrutiny. The only thing that is required is faith. God supplies the rest.

---God deemed homosexuality to be a sin. Period---

Prove God even exists!!
And as such explain to me how nasty little cretins like you can spit on people due to this supposed Gods supposed words!?

I see only one lot of sad, unwelcome, nasty, dangerous members of the human race here...and it's you Bible thumpers and Qu'ran lickers.

You bigotted bunch of backwards, knuckle-dragging, dark ages, fanatical, deluded FREAKS!!!!!!!!

It seems so sad that people are so divided. When we look at the life of Jesus he did not turn anyone away, He accepted all people with open arms and as they abided with him they came to abhor sin. He asks that we come to Him in faith and then He will work out whatever needs to be sorted in each individuals life. It is not for us to judge others, rather we have enough work to do on our own inadequacies. One thing He offers us is hope that this world isn't it - I think everyone who has posted on this site would agree that our world is degenerating morally, politically, economically.
I've really enjoyed reading all the postings. I'm from New Zealand and I am meant to be doing an assignment on child labor practices - this is way more interesting.

And, as you can see by the time/date stamp on my last posting, it is very, very late. There is one thing that Canyon and I agree upon, I have to go to sleep!

Canyon,

Okay, let's talk for a moment about this perfect book. Let's start at the beginning. I'm assuming from your previous posts that you believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture, including the creation story. In Genesis 1:1-2:3 the Bible tells us that God created the plants, animals, etc. and then created man and woman. In Genesis 2:4-25 the same Bible tells us that God created man then plants then animals then woman. So which one is it? If you read the Bible literally then it obviously can't be both.

The creation story in Genesis has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion here. I refer to it only to make a point. The Bible is not perfect, and thank God for that. But why is it that people think that the Bible must be perfect in order for it to have any significance for their lives?

Here is what I believe. The Bible was written by many different men and women in many different times, in many different places, and in many different social locations. The thing that they all had in common was this: trying to make sense out of living in relationship to God as imperfect people in a broken and imperfect world. Many times they got it right. Many times they got it wrong. But it is in that very tension that I find strength. You see I am far from perfect myself. I try hard but many times I fail. Things happen in my life and in the lives of people around me that hurt me deeply and that I don't understand. Oftentimes I can't reconcile situations with what i believe about God and that is exceedingly frightening. But when I look at Scripture, not as some book of rules meant to be used to condemn but as a record of the struggles and successes and failures of those who have gone before me I find the strength to keep going. I do believe that the Bible is sacred and I do believe that it is a gift from God. But I do not base that belief on its absolute perfection and above all I do not condemn those who do not share my beliefs.

By the way, you are still making unfounded assumptions. You wrote, "Our Baptist Pastor friend, based on her posts, is not saved." I have yet to tell you whether I am male or female; I just raised the question. Perhaps i've played the gadfly long enough. I suppose it would only be fair to let you in on the secret. I am a 35 year old, southern, white, heterosexual, male. And, I might add, I am happily married with two beautiful children.

"Anonymous...thanks for lying. I said I'd read Leviticus and Exodus...what a beautiful mistruth you've developed"

So are you willing to post Yahweh's laws concerning the beating of slaves? Or of women who marry when they are not virgins?

If you can, please be honest enough to print them.

If you cannot, please let me know, and I will print them for you.

Oh please!

So we all came from two people, Adam and Eve?

If you believe this, then you're welcome!!! I just wish I could find a way to make money off of your ignorance!

Can you clue me in?

Anonymous...thanks for lying. I said I'd read Leviticus and Exodus...what a beautiful mistruth you've developed.

But clearly, the Bible has been disproven by lies and mistruths and fantasy.

Actually it is still perfect and still Historically sound.

There is a purpose to the things that happened in Deuteronomy, ensuring the sanctity of the Pentateuch and the Bible.

You still have an inordinate amount of faith that you will not face judgement.

You were wrong about which books I said I'd read, is it plausible that you're wrong about the afterlife?

-I have to go to sleep, will respond tomorrow.

John M.

Fair enough; you have to realize that the amount of information you give me on yourself is the amount of information I have on you. Notice I have not spoken with any assurity of your salvation until now. Based on your last post, it sounds like you are saved. Our Baptist Pastor friend, based on her posts, is not saved. I can only go on what I've got, when I feel I have enough information to make a valid assumption, then I do.

My assumption is that at a secular school, based on a sampling of the high-school 'backslide' rate, you have 94% of unsaved students in your class. If you accurately promote the Gospel, the 6% of saved students will scream, "Hallelujah, Amen." and maybe a fraction of the 94% will be saved from their damnation in Hell. When the number drops below 49%, then maybe I'll approve of your methods.

I haven't blindly proclaimed these people to be idiots. They have proved themselves to be idiots by their misunderstanding of basic doctrine, such as slavery in the Bible; which has NOTHING to do with slavery in the 18th and 19th centuries. If one of your students stood up and said, "I don't believe in God, what does the Bible say about me?" Wouldn't you say, "It says you're a fool." If not, you are erring against scripture.

I am encouraged that I don't feel like I'm speaking to the original John M. That makes it a little difficult to post this message with congruity. I hope you've realized that Christ is not solely love and saviour, but also a righteous judge and executioner.

The happiness gospel is not effective and should be abandoned. The Salvation Gospel is the only one worth preaching.

Thank you for your loving attitude and open mind. Rest assured I love you too, and wish you the best.

"More importantly, what a wonderful faith you have that the Bible is incorrect, are you certain your faith is well founded?"

Yes, quite so. Because the Bible, as a history book, has been totally disproven.

And the Bible, as a moral guidebook, is, quite simply, an abomination to anyone with a modern sense of morality.

The evidence I provide for this is the Book of Deuteronomy, which is so morally reprehensible that introducing it to a child, by any reasonable standard, is on par with introducing a child to Mein Kemph (or however the hell you spell that piece of garbage).

You say you have read Deuteronomy....I say you have not. For example, can you tell me Yahweh's law for beating slaves? What about Yahweh's law for a woman who marries after losing her virginity?

READ this book, then get back to me (or perhaps you will concoct some theology which confrims the barbarity of this book...in any case---READ IT! Actrully READ IT!)

I've read Exodus and Leviticus. As I read these as History books, since I wasn't there, I see beautiful prophecy, even though I can't find your exact references.

I don't base my understanding on my pastor, the only human being I trust with my soul is myself, and in that search I have trusted my soul to God.

More importantly, what a wonderful faith you have that the Bible is incorrect, are you certain your faith is well founded?

Canyon:

You do two things I don't like. First, you make assumptions and judgments about people after reading just a couple of sentences they wrote. Second, you make things personal and insult people deeply.

Your assessment of me, for example, is way off. Not surprising - - - you don't know me. And, you don't ask any questions. How do you know I have never read Ezekiel (one of my favorite prophets)? Without even looking it up, I know that verse refers to God holding me responsible for a lost soul if I never witness to them.

And, I do witness. I am one of the most popular professors at the major university where I teach. I am kind and fair to my students, and I do share my faith, in a lecture hall of 85 students at a (secular) state school. So, I show the love of Christ to my students and then I clarify the source of my love.

But, what if I just walked into class and assumed that all of my students are going to hell, and just told them they were all idiots who never wanted to read the Bible? Is that what you would do?

Is that what Jesus did? He had the right to, but He did not. He taught people. He healed people. He loved people. And, at every point along the way, He pointed out their sinfulness and begged them to follow Him.

Canyon, I think you need to talk to a pastor. Get some help. Bring copies of the responses you are posting. Until then, take a break, man. I still love you, but you are doing no good. In fact, you are dangerous to the Gospel, to which I am committed.

Canyon, you seem at least on the verge of intelligent.

Just read Exodus and Leviticus. Can you imagine a god so petty that he would demand someone thumb his nose with ox blood, then wave a side of meat in the air three times over, or whatever wierd mumbo-jumbo those books demand.

This totally incomprehensible god is the one you are trying to foist on the rest of us.

Wake up man! Your pastor has been lying to you this whole time!

Teehee

"Ignorance is Bliss."

I will take this as autobiographical.

Awwwww...

Ignorance is Bliss.

Canyon stated:

"Christ gave us a perfect book with a perfect witnessing method"

No...Ummmm....Actually, a council of old men in the middle of the first millenium formed that anthology. If you are willing to believe it is the word of "god", then my condolences. A sucker is born every minute (your revered, or priest, or whatever he calls himself depends on this). Your intellectual autonomy will (or will not) be sorely missed by your loved ones.

Same goes for all the wierdos willing to turn themselves into a bomb over some strange Mohammed fetish.

If you all would just go away, humanity would do great wihtout you...I promise!!!!

Mo,

Fair enough.

The Koran says I'm going to Heaven: Surah 5:69.

The Bible says you're not.

You've got an awful lot riding on your bet.

Russel D.

If you've read the Bible numerous times, please give me a (brief) summation of its main points. What is the main difference between every other religion without using names?

I am the most willing person on this board to learn. I am not going to whimsically flip-flop my mind, but I assure you, I have an opinion on EVERY theological idea you can pose. If a better truth arises, such as I used to believe in Infralapsarianism, now I believe in Supralapsariansism, then I will change my mind. I am extremely open-minded and history has proven that my mind is easily changed by empirical truth.

Do you ever why Republicans are referred to as Right? (Laughter)

Where did you get (from me) that homosexuality is unredeemable? Everbody is redeemable, even Adolf Hitler and Sadam Hussein were redeemable (And I pray in the last moments of their lives they repented and trusted in Christ, albeit unlikely). Jesus can, through me and other disciples (and the Bible), save any person willing to listen. When you're willing to listen with an open heart, prepare to inherit the Kingdom of God.

Realist; how did those ignorant people write a perfect book? I assume you think you're bright. If so, please write a perfect book; or even a perfect letter.

J. Rhinehart,

An interesting post; once again your intelligence and reasoning shine through. I wish everyone on On-Faith were as intellectually stimulating as you are.

But unfortunately, as always, I disagree with you. To put it to analogy, my argument is that all microwaves emit micro-wave energy in order to stimulate molecules, creating energy, thus heating things. Your argument is that, "This microwave is broken, therefore your argument is wrong."

Everyone should have a conscience, in a perfect world. But this world, post fall, is not perfect and there are broken people. God will take care of those people, more importantly, based on the quality of your posts, you are not broken, and therefore, how will God deal with you?

to canyon shearer.
please, read the last and final true divine revelation,(quran),mercey to man kind.the last exit before the hell fire.

John M.

The Bible has two methods of witnessing;
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
"Be always ready to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that lies within you"

The modern church has resorted to the stupidness of hoping people will say, "You look awfully spiritually fulfilled, I want what you've got." Does that actually happen? Yes, it does, and people get saved with it. But the vast majority of salvation occurs from blatant deliberate witnessing. See the Book of Acts.

We are both standing on the edge of a cliff as the blind walk towards their death. I am screaming and jumping up and down and doing everything I can to warn them. You are twiddling your thumbs hoping someone asks you for directions. It is time the Church takes an active roll in saving the blind.

My assumption, based on empirical observation, is that you believe, "You have a God-shaped hole in your heart." I'll be the first to tell you I hated Christ, I hated the Bible, my heart was whole, I never sought after God, I didn't believe in Him up until two seconds before I got saved. In the words of a woefully unfamous song, "I never loved Jesus, but He rescued me anyways."

Your unawareness of your bloodsoaked hands is because you've never read Ezekiel 33, esp verse 6. Sure, you've never argued anyone out of Heaven, but you've stood idly by with your trumpet in the stowed position while others have.

Who are we? The Biblical Evangelist's, that's who. Christ gave us a perfect book with a perfect witnessing method, and trusted us with the two-edged sword of His Word; that's who we are. I'd (More importantly, God would) love it if you'd join us.

Your current way is so unChristlike, it makes me cry. Nobody got saved by saying, "Look how peacefully and lovingly Christ carries His cross to Calvary."

I go away for two days and see mostly replies to Canyon Shearer. For those who have viewed other blogs one can see his or her posts with the usual messed up understanding of scripture and the fond attachment to religious dogma. Why do people even give that idiot their time in reply? Strange it is.

Baptist Pastor,

It really hurts, right in my heart, to think you are spreading your confusion to a congregation. Jesus will NOT accept you just as you are. Absolutely not. Jesus will accept a repentant, humble, broken, contrite you, but your pridefilled self-righteous attitude has no place in Heaven and will burn in Hell. You are right, I am not judging you into Hell, I'm warning you based on the Bible that you are sansSaviour.

As for your view on the Jewish condemnation of Christ...I'd assume you'd actually have to read the Bible to be ordained, but I guess I'm wrong there. Matthew 27:20-24. You're blaming the sword for the execution and ignoring the executioner.

I truly hope to be surprised by the abundance of people in Heaven who don't deserve to be there(ALL, ESPECIALLY ME), but I am quite certain you'll be surprised by your company in Hell.

I'm just now returning to the conversation after raising three questions for "Christians" to consider just after midnight this morning. I find the tone of the discussion to be pretty emotional, but understandable when considering the importance of the topics being discussed. Personally, my reading of the Bible tells me that nothing I've read on this blog should surprise me, i.e., those who follow Christ will (or at least should) have a biblical understanding of these types of issues, and those who don't follow Him will inevitably be deceived by all sorts of false doctine, their ability to intelligently communicate their beliefs notwithstanding. One blogger's assertion that the rapture is extra-biblical caught my attention. Though, as with the term "Trinity," nowhere in Scripture will one find the term "Rapture," surely no honest person could read I Thess 4:16-17 and subsequently assert that the concept is not to be found in the Bible.

Sorry, the above is mine.

TO CANYON SHEARER

"I would only like to argue that everyone has a conscience. I constantly witness to people by using their conscience to convict them, and as of yet, I have found 100% have a conscience. Some have dulled their consciences to the point that it is almost non-existent, but its remnants are still there." --- CANYON SHEARER

I was referring to a specific person in my remark about some people not having a conscience.

Children below a certain mental level do not have a conscience. It, like all other perceptions we develop, comes with mental maturation. Some human beings never develop their conscience far enough to be called mature. They are still emotionally children. They are emotionally retarded, in other words, no matter what their intellectual IQ. The word "sociopath" describes such people, along with other words. I know one of them very well, and believe me when I say that I know from experience not everyone has a conscience. It can be taught a little, with a great deal of effort, but the person can only learn that others expect them to behave a certain way. The feelings are missing. There is no empathy. And without empathy, there is no conscience. That cannot be taught.

John M. wrote:
(Of course, I am disturbed that a pastor would suggest that the Bible's authors may have "gotten something wrong". Does this pastor not know who really wrote the Bible?)

What really disturbs me is that people believe that books written by a bunch of ignorant people were not written by people at all! All this without any kind of evidence. It's extremely disturbing that otherwise rational people could be so easily brainwashed.

At least we are enlighented enough today that most people, even amongst the believers, have enough common sense to reject a lot of what is in the Bible.

Canyon, the only person posting on this board who takes the da Vinci Code seriously is you. Why else would you even mention it except that, as with all great works of fiction, you believe every word as it's written without question...

Mr Canyon Shearer:

I have seen each post, and I have read each line, and the same thing keeps coming back to me.....you really are blind. I have read the Bible, numerous times. I have studied other religions and read their books also. The only difference between you and me is that I did not read the Bible with blinding faith, and I did not read or study other religions with blinding biasness. I came at each with an open and objective mind. A person cannot learn anything if he or she is not willing, and it seems that you are not willing, in any way, shape or form. That is unfortunate, yet I have come to realise that there is a place for people like you. I call them Republicans(that might have been a dig at the GOP, but who cares, it was funny).

All this talk about homosexuality is really not very warranted. Leave it alone, it does not bother anybody. Has any gay man or woman beat up another person because he or she was straight? It all comes down to perspective and letting things be. Let people live the life they deem to be best. It will all sort itself out in the end.

P.S. Canyon, if you respond to this with some idea that it will be up to God to sort it out, you still prove my point about how little you know.

P.S.S. Also, next time you actually think that homosexuality is a sin and the person is beyon redemption, I emplore you to befriend that person, sit down and get to know him or her. It will truly open your mind.

A couple of points from early in the discussion caught my attention:

1: The fall of Rome

The reasons proposed for the fall of Rome are legion. My favorite is that the lead in the plumbing gave all the Romans brain damage and they couldn't govern.

My feeling (and I'm no expert) is that the Roman Empire originally ruled a fairly sparsely populated continent, but population grew exponentially, as populations will (Isn't that in the Bible? Doesn't it mention e to the x power somewhere in Leviticus?), and the Empire just got too big to manage. Various parts of it finally grew to the point they could field and army that could kick Rome's ass locally, and the Empire came apart piecemeal.

2. People who read the Bible leave the Catholic Church.

This may have some truth to it.

A number of heretical movements in the twelfth century, such as the Waldensians and the Poor of Lombardy, made vernacular translations of the Bible, and some of their preachers came off exceedingly well in debates with Roman prelates. Indeed, the Church's response to sects like these was merely to forbid unauthorized translations of the Bible and unauthorized preaching.

And the Reformation came very soon after Gutenberg invented the printing press (NOT movable type. Where did that story come from?) and printed his vernacular Bible.

Shearer:

I was trying to make an abstract point (rather, Armstrong was) and you've reduced it to concretes. Biblical concretes at that. Here is the essential abstraction:

"A religion which teaches men and women to regard their humanity as chronically flawed can alienate them from themselves."

Who committed which sins in a far-fetched and rather boring myth doesn't matter. (Please tell me than no one still believes the Garden of Eden actually existed.)

Okay Canyon, I'll set the personal attacks aside, but I do have to respond to you on one point. Even though it has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation I must respond to the assertion that the Jews killed Jesus. This is patently false. The Jews of the first century lived under the authority of an all powerful occupying force. I will agree that some of the religious leaders of the day sought to have Jesus killed but even they did not have the authority to do it. Jesus was executed by the Roman authorities, not by the Jews. It is thinking like yours that has led to thousands of years of persecution of the Jews most vivdly represented by but not limited to the millions killed in the Holocaust.

One last point: I do not need to prove you right or wrong because whether I (or anyone else) go to heaven or hell is not up to the Canyon Shearer's of the world to decide. I'm just glad that I serve a loving God who accepts me as I am rather than the hatful and vengeful god that you believe in who expects me to become something I'm not before I can be accepted. Prepare yourself, Canyon, because I have a feeling that you are going to be very, very surprised about who you find in heaven.

TKH:

"...disgusting means of self-gratification..."

The only thing that makes it disgusting is thinking about other peopled doing it. Clear your mind. Think of puppies and pink roses. There, isn't that better?

What's so bad about pornography? I like pornography. I've been living alone for six years. Believe me, self-gratification goes on.

Sorry. Puppies. There you go. Pink roses... ah, yes...

Canyon:

What do you mean by this? "We've tried your way, it doesn't work." "My" way is Christ's way. His way was to serve the lost and tell them what riches they could have in Him if they would only walk away from their selfish lifestyle to follow Him.

I have no idea why you think I am a prosperity preacher or how my love for others constitutes a false gospel. And, who are "we"? Actually, for two thousand years "we" Christians have tried it Jesus' way, and the result is that millions have come to know Jesus.

I have never argued anyone out of heaven, and I have no blood on my hands. And, I am not letting anyone "win". I am trying to LIVE the gospel. You, on the other hand, are playing God, my friend. I did not come to Christ out of fear I was headed to hell, although I was headed there. I came to Christ for the promise of a new life and a relationship with the only One who could offer me that.

John Conolley,

I've heard that before and believe it to be completely wrong. There was a question on On-Faith a while ago about the treatment of women in varying religions.

The first sin may have been Eve's, but the next four were Adam's. If women have been relegated in the world's religions, it is because of their physically small stature and attractiveness, and their propensity to evoke great violence(think Helen).

It is plausible to think that Eve's first sin is responsible for all domestic abuse; just as it is plausible to think that all persecution of the Jew's is for killing Jesus. But when you look at it empirically, the majority of violent events relating the two have no correlation.

Russel D.

You have once again proved how little you know about Christianity. I have read many, many other 'biblos' of other religions, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, iChing to name a few...and no, they have nothing to do with Christianity. They are all very similar to themselves, but infinitely different than the Bible.

As for the Rapture, the term is new, the idea is not. Seems you'd know that if you actually researched religion. Now even the Muslims are wanting a similar thing in their religion, despite the fact that their Koran and Hadith's are very sparse about the issue.

The Bible is meant to be followed literally and it is the Word of God. You should try reading it sometime. Until then, if you want to admit, "Hey, I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I don't want to believe in the Bible.", then that's fine.

John M.

Again, duly noted. We've tried your way, it doesn't work. Your prosperity/happiness gospel is another Gospel, and the Bible says it should be accursed; see Galatians chap 1.

The problem with you not arguing people into Heaven is it is very easy to argue someone out of it. Ask Satan, see Gen 3. These idiots that you are letting win are taking Billions of people to Hell with them. They are Children of the Devil, and their spreading of doubt is murderous. God will ask an account for why their blood is on your hands. How are you going to answer?

Robert in West Hollywood,

I suppose you believe the Da Vinci Code too?

Baptist Pastor,

I know quite a bit about you, unfortunately. Maybe some of it is erroneous making huge assumptions, such as the fact that I am assuming you are an ordained Baptist Pastor, that you are a woman, and that your bastardized view of scripture is what you actually believe. I can only assume that you are a universalist, that you don't hold to the Bible as absolute authority, that you think God is wrong on issues that He doesn't agree with you, and most importantly, I am assuming that you're not going to Heaven because you won't humble yourself before Christ.

These are assumptions, but they are based in what I know about you. I wish you could prove me wrong, because Hell is not a good place and I don't want you to go there.

"The proper question is whether religion has dealt with sexuality in a competent or incompetent manner.

What is it that makes religious people believe they have any expertise in this area? In the Western world, Christianity has taught us that holiness equals sexlessness, that celibacy is the key to Christian leadership, that the ideal woman is a perpetual virgin and that homosexual people are either sick or morally depraved."

Yep. That about sums up this "knickertwister".

RELIGION trumps HUMANITY everytime because MALES can't give birth to life. And boy, are they a vengeful sex.

Well, this thread has taken a few twists and turns hasn't it? Personally, I don't see what the ruckus is all about regarding homosexuality. God deemed homosexuality to be a sin. Period. This is fact and it is not up for debate. God also said that we are to love the sinner. So I will welcome any gay or lesbian person into my heart but I will renounce their lifestyle. If I suddenly announced to my Baptist church that I had an addiction to pornography, they wouldn't love me any less but they would hold me accountable to removing that sin from my life. God isn't simply all-loving OR all-wrathful. He is both.

Karen Armstrong (A History of God, New York, 1993, p.124) suggests that Christianity's attitude toward sex stems from the idea of The Fall:

"A religion which teaches men and women to regard their humanity as chronically flawed can alienate them from themselves. Nowhere is this alienation more evident than in the denigration of sexuality in general and women in particular. Even though Christianity had originally been quite positive for women, it had already developed a misogynistic tendency in the West by the time of Augustine. The letters of Jerome teem with loathing of the female wich occasionally sounds deranged. Tertullian had castigated women as evil temptresses, an eternal danger to mankind:

" 'Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. _You_ are the devil's gateway; _you_ are the unsealer of that forbidden tree; _you_ are the first deserter of the divine law; _you_ are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. _You_ so carelessly destroyed man, God's image. On account of _your_ desert, even the Son of God had to die.' "

Quotations can be multiplied and squared and cubed. I don't think it's merely a question of competence. I think the hatred of sex and of women pervades Christianity root and branch.

Dear Sir,

You state, "When healthy sex is repressed pornography is inevitable." This is an utterly errant statement.

When our Lord, Jesus, Who had full human nature and full divine nature, walked the earth over 2000 years ago, I do not think he was waffling over whether to get married or resort to disgusting means of self gratification. I think he was thinking "be perfect as my Father is perfect..."

Your statement does everything to point people AWAY from the proper example of Jesus Christ.

All others: beware of false teachers.

Sincerely,
TKH

Canyon, don't bother. The darkness saw the light, understood it not and fled from it. Shake the dust from your feet as a testamony to them. Christianity does not put a negative connotation to sex, but a perfect explanation for it.
Mr. Spong, regardless of what anyone here says you will be held responsible by God Almighty for what you teach and how you lead others astray.
The bible says that in the latter days the love of many will grow cold and they will become lovers of self, giving themselves over to a reprobate mind. That men will give up natural relations with women and burn in their flesh with lust for one another and women will allow themselves to used unnaturally. Read 2Peter 2:4-6.
I am not trying to attack homosexuals. They have as much right to salvation as I do! I also warn those who lust in adultry and fornication. Our bodies are the temple of God, treat them worthily not lustfully!

Canyon Shearer...You're a nasty little freak.

John M., I certainly respect your right to disagree. You should be aware that the theological dissertation I included on Leviticus 18:22 was written by B.A. Robinson of Religious Tolerance dot Org., a highly respected and vast repository of well researched and unbiased theological research which includes all religious faiths, not just Christianity. Though I realize that you don't agree with the reasoning made in the argument, intellectually and logically speaking, I can assure you that the argument (as presented) is credible, well reasoned, logically constructed and factual grounded in all of its assertions, interpretations and drawn conclusions...

Canyon,

Thank you. You made my point perfectly. When I asked you why it was that you assumed that I was a "he" I did not say that I wasn't. You had just assumed that I was a male (and probably that I was white, around 50 years old, conservative, and straight) based on your social conditioning. Then, when I planted the idea in your mind that I might not be a male you immediately assumed that I was theologically liberal and that I had an overt agenda for world domination (and probably that I was a lesbian!).

My point is this. You know absolutely nothing about me. Because you have not gotten to know me on a personal level all you have are your assumptions. Your assumptions come about as a result of your social conditioning and they can be wrong.

Be very careful about lifting up assumptions as being absolute truth. You assume that all women who seek to serve God (or apparently their country) are (in the words of that pernicious prognosticator, Rush Limbaugh) "feminazis." In the same breath you make the assumtion that, "Homosexuality is actually hedonistic lustfilled anal sex; recent studies have found the average homosexual male will have 2100 partners in his lifetime." I have absolutely no idea where you are getting your statistics but I assure you that homosexuality is no more about having sex than heterosexuality is. It is a part of life but not all that there is to life. I'm going to ASSUME that you haven't taken the time to get to know any gay or lesbian people on a personal level, and probably that you don't know any female pastors personally either. As I said earlier, my assuptions could be completely wrong. But, if I am right, I would encourage you to get to know someone before you condemn them.

Robert:

That last posting is a little weak. The concept of homosexuality is ancient, and the Hebrew way of describing it is found in that Leviticus verse. Some translations change the exact wording to attempt to convey the concept found in the original Hebrew. I personally don't see much difference in any of the versions. If we have a 'new' word that describes an old concept, of course it could be used to translate that verse.

If I translated the German version of "Could you please bring me a cup of water?", word for word, into English, it would be "Could you please me a cup water to bring?" Same meaning really, just a little klunky and not conforming to English grammar. But, the meaning is clear. The same goes with your verse in Leviticus. And, don't forget: that's not the only verse in the Bible that speaks to this issue.

Canyon Shearer, the respective quality of my faith as compared to yours is not the question at hand, the quality of your Biblical knowledge, however, is.

You offered this paraphrased interpretation of Leviticus 18:22 into the discussion and ascribed to it your blanket assurance as to it's conceptual accuracy "To sleep with a man, like you sleep with a woman, is disgusting." I'll concede to the fact that you are paraphrasing what you perceive to be it's biblical meaning as to what you've been told it says and therefore subsequently what you want to believe it says, but the truth of what is really says is much more unclear and complicated than you are likely to be willing to concede.

The following is neither my original writing nor my original research, it has been sourced from much more scholarly theologians than myself. But, since knowledge can be legitimately learned from other people without having to personally conduct the original research, I'm including it here so you can learn something other than commonly accepted doctrinal dogma...

> Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

This is a passage from the Mosaic Code that is often used to condemn homosexual behavior in general. In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee."

The first part of this verse is literally translated as "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman" Many, probably most, theologians, Bible translations and biblical commentators agree that the verse is directed at men who engage in at least some form of anal sex with other men. But they do not agree on the full scope of the forbidden activities.

For example:

The Living Bible greatly widens the scope of the original Hebrew to include all homosexual acts by both men and women. They confuse the matter further by not differentiating between homosexual orientation and homosexual behavior. They render the first part of this verse as: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden."

On the other hand, many religious scholars have interpreted the beginning of this verse as referring only to sexual activities between two males during a Pagan temple ritual. A translation of the Bible using this interpretation might say, "Ritual anal sex between two men in a Pagan temple is forbidden."

The second part of this verse explains what type of sin this transgression falls under. There are two types of sin in the Mosaic Code:

Moral sin is produced by rebellion against God. This seems to be the interpretation of most biblical translations imply when they translate the Hebrew "toeyvah" into English words such as "abomination," "enormous sin," or "detestable."

Ceremonial uncleanliness is caused by contact with a forbidden object or by engaging in a behavior which might be quite acceptable to non-Hebrews, but which was forbidden to the Children of Israel. Eating birds of prey, eating shellfish, cross breeding livestock, picking up sticks on a Saturday, planting a mixture of seeds in a field, and wearing clothing that is a blend of two textiles are examples of acts of ritual impurity which made a Child of Israel unclean. These were not necessarily minor sins; some called for the death penalty.

The verse is, unfortunately, incomplete. Its precise meaning is unclear. The phrase "lay lyings" has no obvious interpretation. Attempts have been made to make sense out of the original Hebrew by inserting a short phrase into the verse. For example:

The Net Bible® translation 1 inserts two words to produce "And with a male you shall not lay [as the] lyings of a woman." A man must not have sexual intercourse with another man as he would normally have with a woman. i.e. anal intercourse between two men is not permitted. From this literal, word for word translation, they produce a smoother English version: "You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman."

An alternate translation would insert a different pair of words to produce: "And with a male you shall not lay [in the] lyings of a woman." That is, two men must not engage in sexual behavior on a woman's bed. Presumably, they must go elsewhere to have sex; a woman's bed was sacred and was to be reserved for heterosexual sex.

Which is the correct translation?

Obviously, it is important for a student of the Bible to resolve exactly what behavior is forbidden: is it:

All homosexual behavior, by either men or women, or
All sexual behavior between two men, or
Only anal sex between two men, or
Only anal sex in a Pagan temple ritual, or
Sexual activity between two men in a woman's bed?

Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the meaning of this verse. Many people tend to select that interpretation that most closely reinforces their initial beliefs about the Bible and homosexual behavior.

English translations of this verse:

These are not a great deal of help. Bible publishers are under strong economic pressures to turn a profit. If a translation of Leviticus 18:22 were included that did not generally condemn at least male homosexual behavior, their sales would drop precipitously and are therefore unlikely to deviate from the traditional interpretation

Some translations are:

ESV: (English Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is abomination."

KJV: (King James Version): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination".

LB: (Living Bible): "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"

Net Bible: "You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act."

NIV: (New International Version) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

NLT: (New Living Translation): "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

RSV: (Revised Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

The LB and NLT translations use the term "homosexuality" That is unusually deceptive for three reasons:

The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts. By using the word "homosexuality," the English translation appears to condemn lesbian activity as well. The latter behavior is definitely not mentioned in the original Hebrew text of this passage. In fact, lesbian behavior is not mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The term "homosexuality" has two distinct meanings in English. Sometimes it refers to sexual behavior (what some people do). Sometimes it relates to sexual orientation (what some people are). One reader might conclude from an English translation that homosexual orientation is criticized in the Bible; others might assume that homosexual behavior is criticized.

The word "homosexual" was first used in the very late in 19th century CE. There was no Hebrew word that meant "homosexual." Thus, whenever the word is seen in an English translation of the Bible, one should be wary that the translators might be inserting their own prejudices into the text. <

Canyon:

Bro.....I have seriously got to wonder if you are to be believed. You remind me of one of the kids from that documentary called "Jesus Camp". That film scared the crap out of me. With all the selfrighteous retoric you keep spouting, I would be probably safe to assume God is laughing at you. As for the Rapture........not even part of the Bible. It was made up by a peaseant girl in the UK over a hundred years ago, and just found its way into Christian folklore.

It seems that what you think you know may be right in your eyes, but you seem to be deluding yourself. The Bible is not meant to be followed literally and it is definitely not the word of God. You should try reading other religions' Bibles and see what you think then. You'll find they are remarkably similar, and are all just as remarkabll far fetched.

Canyon:

Thanks for your response.

You wrote:
"How am I supposed to argue Biblical ideals with these people if their understanding is based on hearsay and lies?"

First, the Bible never asks us to 'argue'. Hank Hanegraaff once wrote, "You'll never argue anyone into heaven." I agree. I say, point out the benefits of being a Christian, let them see your changed life, and maybe they will want what you have. Hit them over the head with harsh judgment and they will want to be the exact opposite of you, and you can keep your Jesus, too.

You also wrote, "Once they've read the Bible, then hey, maybe we can talk." No. People don't have to read the Bible to earn the right to experience love coming from us. They should want to read it once they have experienced sacrificial love flowing from within us.

I find you a little legalistic. Pray on that.

John M.

Thank you for the rebuke. How am I supposed to argue Biblical ideals with these people if their understanding is based on hearsay and lies? Once they've read the Bible, then hey, maybe we can talk.

That word, Christ-Like, is the most misunderstood word in the world. Christ is God, God is wrathful, God is righteously angry, God says that atheists are stupid, God said to turn the other cheek, to love thy neighbor, to warn of the impending judgment.

Clearly I have room to grow in Holyness, but going against the commandments of God is something I am not.

As for our Catholic, Episcopalian, Evangelical redeemed rate; they are all poor to say the least. Perhaps there is one or two Catholics going to Heaven; but I am under the impression that those that actually read the Bible flee from the Catholic faith; ie Menno Simons, Martin Luther...

A generation of, "Be Christlike, don't condem, don't use the word sin or Hell, ask Jesus into your heart" has all but killed the Christian faith. One in Ten christians will see the Kingdom of Heaven; 270 Million Americans think they would be in the Rapture if it happened this Afternoon; 30 Million actually know Christ. When the Church actually becomes Christlike, then we will see a revival. If you're interested in learning why that's true, please read, in conjunction with the Bible, "The Way of the Master" by Ray Comfort, available on Amazon.com.

Robert in West Hollywood,

Nice smokescreen yourself. We know where my faith is based.

I still believe your faith is blind. What exactly is your point with Lev 18:22? What it says, without my proper Hebrew understanding of conjugation, is, "To sleep with a man, like you sleep with a woman, is disgusting." But more importantly, without that verse, 2100 sexual partners goes against everything else the Bible says. If you find me a monogomous homosexual relationship, then I won't condemn it, but 100% of homosexual relationships are based in hedonism and the "It's all about me" culture of America.

So what makes your faith better than mine?

Kiel,

Good question. EVERYONE deserves to die. My favorite analogy is if you were in a cage with a tiger. At first the tiger takes notice of you, realizes that you pose no threat, and goes to sleep.

You proceed to pick up a stick and poke the tiger in the eye. The tiger growls at you, but because he is an amiable tiger, goes back to sleep.

So you poke him in the eye again, and again, and again, and again, and again; and then you're surprised when he jumps on you and rips your head off.

God is patient, He is long-suffering, He is loving, He is forgiving. But everytime you poke Him in the eye by telling a lie, lusting after a girl who you have no intention of marrying, using His name as a curse word, worshipping money, ignoring the cure for death...don't be surprised when He kills you and brings you to judgment.

The terrible thing about AIDS is the babies that it kills. 1 in 5 deaths from AIDS is an infant. Imagine the poke in the eye from that one; the promiscuousness of the world is killing babies; God has promised to deliver those babies to Heaven, and He has promised to forgive you and deliver you, but you must seek after God, stop deliberately poking Him in the eye, and receive the Gift of Jesus Christ.

Until then, don't be surprised when your blatant eye-pokes earn you pain and suffering.

Canyon Shearer, nice rhetorical smoke screen but, having read through your posts, you, of all people, should know that process is as important as content. For a person who, by your own description, is concerned deeply with the idea of reconciling the correct interpretation of scripture between the numerous varied translations you possess, a person could easily conclude that you've actually take the time and invested yourself into pursuing and disseminating truly accurate and conscientious Biblical interpretations. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. Your research methodology and contextual knowledge of the methods used to create each individual translation can only be described as the efforts of a boorish theological dilettante. You see and know only the end results of the efforts and methods used by other people but have no knowledge of those methods and efforts beyond your blind trust that they have been conducted in good faith. Well my naive friend, you've been compliantly had. If, as you say, the efforts and methods made by the translators who transcribed the various copies of the Bible which you possess were working in good faith, why is it then, that Leviticus 18:22 has been intentionally misinterpreted and misrepresented in each and every single English translation of the Bible that currently exists? If you are truly a scholar of the Bible as you claim, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. If you're a dilettante, as I suspect, you wont.

As to your question regarding from where my faith is derived, the very question implies an innate suspicion of my motives and possible agenda. If you were willing to question my intentions, it would seem an irreconcilable conundrum that you aren't willing to be as equally interested in questioning the intent and motives of the people translating your copies of the scriptures? Take your time with your answer; I suspect you have some thinking to do...

Canyon:

Christian to Christian: PLEASE STOP.

Even when you are saying the right stuff, you say it the wrong way. For, example, "If you would actually READ the Bible..." Dude, that's insulting and so not Christ-like. And, then you make sweeping statements like "Catholics are not Christians". I know what you are trying to say, but are you sure there are NO Catholics anywhere who are believers? (How do we know all Evangelicals are Christians?) And, then, there are your harsh assumptions, like assuming that the Baptist Pastor has an "unsaved soul", along with ALL Episcopalians.

I love you, man, but your tone is wrong and your message is harsh. Where is the love? I am sorry to do this to you in front of everyone, but what you say in public has to be corrected in public.

I'm praying for you.

Canyon Shearer wrote:

"Christianity does not foster a negative view of sexuality, it fosters a healthy, truthful, righteous, fulfilling view with no ramifications.
Sure, the current humanist society says have sex with anyone in any way, we don't care, it's your body...the result is masses of deserving and undeserving dying of AIDS, gross sexual deviation, terrible child-molestation rates."

Who exactly deserves to die from AIDS?

Dear Baptist Pastor,

My appologies for assuming you were a male, I forgot the liberal age we live in. Perhaps you ought to think about becoming an Episcopalian Bishop? Your confused view of the Bible and unsaved soul would put you right at home there.

I am of the opinion that women are 100% equal in all ways but physical. I believe that a woman could be a wonderful Pastor if she was brought up correctly and with a right view of Scripture, and was saved. The problem is that I haven't seen that woman yet. The women that have reached the pastor/bishop status have done so with the agenda to show that women are equal, and thus, have made themselves inferior. Just like women fighter pilots; a woman is perfectly capable of being a fighter pilot, but the majority of women fighter pilots are out there to prove they are the best and end up breaking airplanes, making mistakes by being brash and rushed, and putting themselves and others in danger. There is training for a purpose, and there are contraints for a purpose. When we have a woman pastor that recognizes that, the Church will be all the better.

That said, your view on homosexuality is based on popular culture that says homosexual male couples are as loving and committed as a married heterosexual couple. I have no problem with that if it were true; it wouldn't be the greatest situation, but it wouldn't be what we have today. Homosexuality is actually hedonistic lustfilled anal sex; recent studies have found the average homosexual male will have 2100 partners in his lifetime. When you realize that, then you see why homosexuality is an abomination.

J. Rhinehart,

That was an excellent essay you have written. You've obviously thought a lot about the issue and have some well founded and reasonable opinions.

I would only like to argue that everyone has a conscience. I constantly witness to people by using their conscience to convict them, and as of yet, I have found 100% have a conscience. Some have dulled their consciences to the point that it is almost non-existent, but its remnants are still there.

I am sorry for anything the Catholic Church may have done to you, and I hope you are able to move on. Their abstinence and remaining single is extremely unBiblical, and as we've seen, it has terrible ramifications.

The issue with the pastor you are referring to has rocked the internal church; and rightly so; evidence has come to light that that person was not actually a Christian, despite his christianist lifestyle and profession of faith. Through his fall, many have been saved, and hopefully in the end, he will be saved as well.

It is my opinion that we are all born with homosexual tendencies. Just like we are all born with the tendency to lie, steal, cheat, covet, lust, fornicate...through the culture and our conscience we rage against these things and know the difference between right and wrong. The problem is that the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful beyond all things. As you know, playing on those tendencies will earn you a straight shot to Hell; only Jesus Christ can save you from that punishment so richly deserved, and in the process, can sharpen your conscience and deliver you from your wickedness. Homosexuals, liars, fornicators, thieves, coveters...none of these seek after God because they enjoy their lifestyle too much.

Robert in West Hollywood,

You have an inordinate amount of faith that we can't know the Bible is true. Are you sure your faith is correct?

The reason I own several KJV Bibles, a NKJV, an ESV, a NWT, a CEV, an NIV, the Pentateuch in Hebrew, and a Greek Textus Receptus is because it is vastly important to me to have the correct translation. For example, the KJV has minute translation issues; one translates Dinosaurs extremely liberally because in 1611, they didn't believe in Dinosaurs, another replaces the word Love with Charity...the CEV and NWT are maliciously and whimsically translated, if only I had the discipline to learn Greek; but I am confident that the KJV and ESV are faithful translations and therefore my very basic of understandings of the original language will have to suffice.

Where did you get your faith from?

John,

You ask other Christians what they base their Christianity upon if not the Bible? I ask you one simple straightforward question in response, how do you know that the version of the Bible upon which you have formed your opinions and beliefs is accurate? I know that you assume it's accurate. I know that you believe it's accurate but I also know that you don't really know for certain whether or not it's actually an accurate translation and representation of the one true Bible. Your faith requires you to accept much of what cannot be directly or even indirectly proven to be true. With that level of commitment to faith required, shouldn't you be absolutely certain you're getting it right and working from the one true version of the Bible? After all, what could be the worst thing that could happen to you if you get it wrong? What if you find out too late that your version of the Bible is errant and that you have spent your life believing in false scripture and teachings? Close counts, doesn't it? All you have at stake is your immortal soul, right? Losing soul wouldn't be a big deal, would it? I know that if I was going to commit to faith with such absolute devotion, betting my immortal soul on my commitment, I'd want to be damned sure that I was believing in the correct things and getting it right. Don't you?

I have a disturbing revelation for you, your version of the Bible is errant and has been manipulated to fit the contemporary prejudices and political motivations of those who transcribed your copy for you. If you have the guts to know the truth, do some real research into my claim, you'll find out that I'm not deceiving you...

John,

You ask other Christians what they base their Christianity upon if not the Bible? I ask you one simple straightforward question in response, how do you know that the version of the Bible upon which you have formed your opinions and beliefs is accurate? I know that you assume it's accurate. I know that you believe it's accurate but I also know that you don't really know for certain whether or not it's actually an accurate translation and representation of the one true Bible. Your faith requires you to accept much of what cannot be directly or even indirectly proven to be true. With that level of commitment to faith required, shouldn't you be absolutely certain you're getting it right and working from the one true version of the Bible? After all, what could be the worst thing that could happen to you if you get it wrong? What if you find out too late that your version of the Bible is errant and that you have spent your life believing in false scripture and teachings? Close counts, doesn't it? All you have at stake is your immortal soul, right? Loosing soul wouldn't be a big deal, would it? I know that if I was going to commit to faith with such absolute devotion, betting my immortal soul on my commitment, I'd want to be damned sure that I was believing in the correct things and getting it right. Don't you?

I have a disturbing revelation for you, your version of the Bible is errant and has been manipulated to fit the contemporary prejudices and political motivations of those who transcribed your copy for you. If you have the guts to know the truth, do some real research into my claim, you'll find out that I'm not deceiving you...

Canyon Shearer, diseases that are transmitted via sexual contact are no different than a whole host of other equally damaging diseases confronting human beings. From the virus or bacteria's perspective, there is no morality involved in their individual chosen method of infection and self-procreation. Sexually transmitted diseases have merely evolved to take advantage of one method of transmission between human hosts. It's no different than an influenza virus evolving to take advantage of aerial transmission from one person's lungs to another as its method of transmission. To judge and condemn anyone who contracts a disease of any kind, regardless of how they contracted it, is the true affront to morality not your arbitrary, provincial and artificial set of contrarian judgments and prejudices...

I would disagree with the (liberal) Baptist pastor. I am not taking clear scriptural teaching on homosexuality out of context if I believe what it says. But, if I give it special status above and beyond other forms of sin, I might be giving it an emphasis the Bible does not share. Or, if I use that biblical knowledge to condemn others, instead of loving them, I miss the tenor of the Bible.

Having said that, the Bible does condemn homosexuality. Paul states in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans that homosexuality results from a turning away from God, or even a denial that He exists. In his first letter to the church at Corinth, Paul lists people who will not be part of the coming Kingdom, and homosexuals are among them. But - check this out - he also includes 'slanderers' in this category.

Jesus said we should take care of the huge piece of lumber in our own eye before we try to help our friend with their eye problems. I think we have to see the difference between ruthless condemnation and lovingly helping others with their sin, but the teaching on sexual sin does actually exist.

(Of course, I am disturbed that a pastor would suggest that the Bible's authors may have "gotten something wrong". Does this pastor not know who really wrote the Bible?)

Let's bring a couple more scholars into this discussion:

"The Very Rev. Hollinshead T. Knight, Interim Rector at St. John's Episcopal Church in Jackson Wyoming, in his essay about the four primary theological stances toward homosexuality, says:

'It isn’t Scripture that creates hostility to homosexuality, but rather hostility to homosexuality that leads certain Christians to retain a few passages from an otherwise discarded law code. We don’t follow biblical teaching on divorce, polygamy, nudity, Paul’s advice not to marry, slavery, or the stoning of a dulterers! Biblical scholar Walter Wink has said that there is no biblical sex ethic. The Bible knows only a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given culture or period.

The problem is not reconciling homosexuality with scriptural passages that seem to condemn it; the problem is how do you reconcile the rejection and mistreatment of homosexuals with the love of Christ for all people, particularly the oppressed and the rejected? I don’t think it can be done. If the law of love is more important than the laws of biology, I don’t see how Christians can exclude and mistreat people on the basis of sexual orientation. Otherwise you end up with a Matthew Shepherd situation, for which we can all bear some of the blame.'"

The Bible is a book; an inanimate object. As Ralist points out it is actually a collection of books written by many different people from many different social locations and situations over a very long period of time. Different people view its contents as holy, hateful, or something in-between. The sacred (or not-so-sacred, depending on who you ask) nature of the text is not what I am addressing here. That is a debate for another day.

What I would like to propose is that it is not the Bible itself that has led to unhealthy, puritanical notions of human sexuality and pervasive social attitudes such as homophobia, the oppression of women, and the demasculinization of men in ethnic minorities. It is instead the kyriarchical social structures which have been built in the western world on a foundation of abysmally poor interpretaions of Christian Scripture on the one hand and emphasis on certain Scriptures which, when taken out of context support the position of the powerful on the other. This practice is perpetuated today by fundamentalists who are so spiritually insecure that they cannot admit that the doctrines and interpretations to which they tied their faith may in fact be incorrect or that the biblical authors may have actually gotten something wrong.

I have three questions for those of you who identify yourselves as Christians and who criticize conservative Christians for their belief that homosexuality is sinful: First, what is the basis for your faith, i.e., the Bible, something else, or the Bible and something else? Second, what would you have people who base their beliefs on what they read in the Bible do with the numerous and clear Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments which identify homosexuality as unnatural and sinful? Third, given these Scriptures, wouldn't the fairest response from you be to acknowledge the fact that the Bible does condemn homosexuality and that people who base their faith on the written Word aren't necessarily either evil or homophobic for accepting such a belief as being truth? I believe that most Christians who see homosexuality as sin and, necessarily, people who engage in it as sinning, are capable of, and in fact do, separate their condemnation of the sin from their desire for the well-being of the people who engage in that sin.

Canyon,

You wrote, "Unfortunately I believe that he is a Baptist Pastor"

What makes you think that I am a "he"?

To Rev. Spong,

Actually, it's not Christianity that "fosters a negative view of sexuality". It's Catholicism. And a few of it's offshoots.

Don't mistake the imitators for the original.

"...if you're not getting your morality from the Bible, you're getting it from your conscience; which is as Godgiven as the Bible." -- Canyon Shearer

Not everyone has a conscience.

And not everyone in the New Testament was perfect. If only it were so.

But I admire your focus on the "spirit" of the New Testament, as that is what I think Jesus tried so hard to keep bringing people's attention back to when they would stray to less important things.

Sex is indeed a "gift", one that too many people treat stupidly. The Rev. Spong has pointed out, well I thought, that sex is much more than the US Christian churches have been teaching. I had a personal experience while growing up with someone who taught me that sex was evil, that only sex inside of marriage was holy, and that we should hate our bodies and our sexuality and treat it like it was our enemy. So I know very well what Spong is saying. Such teaching perverts all that can be good about sex. And I do not believe that it was what Jesus intended.

Sex is a part of life, a part of being human. For most people. There are some - and I say this from experience - some people do not have a sex drive. They lack the ability to enjoy sex. For those people, those few people, I could see forming an organization like the monastery's and nunnary's. But those people are not common. The Catholic church made the mistake of idolizing those people.

I read that 20% of people never marry. I do not think people should be forced to marry by society. The recent homosexual scandal about the married megachurch minister with 5 kids made me wonder how his family, his children & wife, are dealing with his obvious bisexuality, and especially his deceitfulness.

I think each person should be allowed to find his/her own sexuality. Only in cases where abuse/manipulation is being practiced against another person should anyone interfere. The more I see of humankind, the more I realize sex is not a straightforward either/or thing. It's a combination of different factors. People should be accepted. Jesus spoke of eunuchs who were born that way, and others who made themselves that way. He recognized that not everyone is the same, not everyone can be a family man/woman. He didn't say they should stop being the way they were and become someone different. Yet the churches of today often do.

I read that the Apache culture used to revere androgynous people as having a foot in each camp, so to speak. They believed that being male was a gift, and being female was a gift, so an androgynous person was doubly blessed. I like that idea. I have a feeling Jesus would too.

Jay,

I'm glad you realize that religion is not the advent of Jesus Christ. Religion is man using the divine/afterlife for his purposes. The religion of christianity in the USA has been relegated to a business. The misuse of religion has very little bearing on the Truth of a theology.

Your Sunday school has failed you:
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

You have a healthy worldly view of sex; consensual sex with dignity is better than we see in this country. The problem with that view is that the reason a man leaves his parents to cleave to a woman, so that they become one flesh, is to symbolize the beauty of the Christ/Church relationship. Adultery, Fornication, Lust, all of these weaken a relationship, and if Christ was like that, He wouldn't be much of a God.

Shame on you for thinking the Bible is just a guide book. The Bible is a spiritual book, if it were a guide book, it would look like the Koran, or if it had an accurate reaction to every input, it would take up the whole of the Library of Congress. Instead we have a concise collection which says to listen to your conscience, when you sin against your conscience you've sinned against God, and the only way to be redeemed is through the saving Graces of Christ on Calvary.

That leads me to James; if you're not getting your morality from the Bible, you're getting it from your conscience; which is as Godgiven as the Bible. Your basis and adherance to the slavery debate leads me to believe you have no idea what the Bible says.

There are occurences in the Bible where TERRIBLE unGodly things happen, what you don't realize is that the Bible is multifaceted. Often it is the direct commandment of God, a map of human morals, a guide to redemption, sometimes it is for authentication, other times for Joy, but much of the Bible is a History book. There is LOTS of polygamy in the Bible, but you'd be hardpressed to find a single place where God advocates it. There are events where people get their big toes cut off, but God doesn't advocate it. YOU can read the Bible to say anything you want, but the Truth is found when you read it in context. If I said, "I would never say that I hate James, because I don't hate James." you could easily quote me as saying, "...I hate James..." - Canyon; that is what you've done with the Bible.

Realist, the education level is quite impressive isn't it? Some of the authors of the Bible had very little higher learning; several of the Apostle's never graduated the average school and certainly weren't picked up to be apprentices.

Just to name a few, Matthew was the most hated person in Israel; a tax collector, Mark never held a job in his life, Luke was a Medical Doctor, John went into the family business of fish, and Saul was the highest of Rabbi's.

Yet they are all infinitely smarter than you, because they understand the truth behind the world. Even in their unlearned states, they penned a perfect work devoid of mistakes or contradiction, containing scientific facts that wouldn't be known for millenia.

You'd be hard pressed to find a PhD of anything that could do that.

I am glad that I'm not the only one who was amazed by the Pastor's remarks. I thought of the Bible verse that deals directly with him:

"He rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

Unfortunately I believe that he is a Baptist Pastor, because the world has infiltrated the church, it is in terrible disrepair, and thousands of 'christians' enter Hell daily.

Betty, have you ever played the game, "Jump to Conclusions"? I think you'd enjoy it.

Christianity and Sexuality:
Negative View, VERY Negative Consequences

Adding up the comments I have seen here, it seems we can reach the following conclusions:

"Christian" attitudes toward sex
RESULT in
Higher Abortions
Higher Teen Pregnancy
Higher Sexually transmitted diseases
A Mythological attitude towards one of the most important aspects of our humanity (sexuality)
Focus on abstract and crazy moral principles (don't use a condom)
as opposed to
A mutually agreed on decision by a couple
(we will use a condom so YOU don't become pregnant if you don't want to).

Christianity's sexual attitudes are slightly more progressive than those of the Neantrathals.

It is time to wake up to high moral principles, not mythology, not demonization, not threats of hell, not "mortal sins."

We women will be infinitely better off if the men change their Power STructure attitudes, which are enforced by the hypocrasy and stupidity and moral obtuseness of fundamental christians who determine government policy and everyday American attitudes towards Sexuality.

Ashley
Does make you wonder whether Canyon isn't a parody of "itself", doesn't it.

Maybe "it" is on the side of truth after all, by being so absurd in his positions and misrepresentations.

Alas, too often it is NOT a parody, but sincere.

I love Christians like Canyon Shearer. His blatant lies and contemptible viewpoints help drive people away from Christianity and probably other religious fantasies as well. One Fred Phelps/Canyon Shearer is worth 1000 facts and reasoned opinions.

Mr. Spong,

I will agree with you that in the past religion did repress sexuality to a degree. But in this liberated age I personally don't see that as much anymore, and have not in quite sometime. I am sure that it still exists, but not like it had for centuries before now. My point is that I don't think it is right to blame the Bible for our societies problems. There is enough blame to go around for everyone in regards to abused children, women viewed as nothing more than sexual toys, and the discrimination that homosexuals encounter. I think that we all share in the blame to some extent. Turn on the TV and and it is sex and more sex. Sex in advertisements, in videos, for sporting events, the list is endless. The same with major movies. And some music is about nothing but sex. Even when driving on the highway we have billboards to remind us of sex. Its everywhere. And now when a child abuser is talked about on TV, he/she is protrayed as a victim in many cases. The experts tell us that these perverts need our understanding and help. And then you have the radical homosexuals who demand that you accept and like their choice of a lifestyle. That would be the same as me telling them that they have to like my sexual lifestyle. And if they don't then I would mock them. Which I don't do. Religion could disappear, and pornography will still be around till the end of the world. Look at the increase of sexual diseases. To be blunt there are alot of people out there engaging in sexual activities, and I don't think that they are thinking about the Bible while they are at it. And just one other point, what do you consider Healthy Sex? I don't mean to split hairs, but nowdays that is a valid question. When it comes to sex I always remember an old saying" What was considered abnormal behavior yesterday, is considered healthy behavior today."

Dear Baptist Pastor:

What a lie you tell in such a carefully packaged sentence: "never condemned anyone but offered love and acceptance to all regardless of their uniquenesses". Should I remind you of how Jesus regarded the Pharisees? Perhaps you should re-read John 12:48 " There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words: that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day".

May I remind you of what is written about liars? Prov. 6:16 "These are the six things that the Lord hates - Seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, etc...".

I do not believe you are a true Baptist pastor. My father is a pastor, so is my brother, and I am a devout student of the scripture.

Well said Mr Spong! It's good to see some common sense and rationality out there.

Baptist Pastor wrote:
"Canyon Shearer, PLEASE STOP!!! You are only making a fool out of yourself. You do not have a complex enough understanding of Scripture to have a clue what you are saying."

Very amusing! Canyon is a fool for believing that the Bible is literally true, and you realize that the Bible does not make any sense, so you need to have a "complex understanding" to try to make it fit your perception of reality.

The Bible is a collection of books written by many different people with many different views. Most of them knew less about the world than your average high school kid today (at least a kid educated in a public school outside the US). You can read almost anything you want into it by choosing which parts to emphasize. Of course, you need to have a "complex understanding" of it for it to make some sense.

JAY: it's as simple as noticing that SINS are CRIMES. The law is God's law that is broken when one sins. The law is the law of the land when one crimes. What you said is God's law is or should be the law of the land. Maybe the other way round, the law of the land is as far as God's law should go. "One nation under God" must make that so. That would be Nature's God that one nation is under.

The problem is false Gods, Devils http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul says the Bible is the word of Devil and not the word of God. That clears the way for sins and crimes to be the same thing what with the real God, Nature's God being our God.

LizzieG's Fanciful View of Sex and God

Lizzie opines:
Sex outside of God's boundaries is what has led us into our current predicament.

My comments above indicate that countries that have rejected the Myth of God (Holland, Germany, France, Japan) are
MUCH healthier
in all the measures of Sexual Health.
Lower teen pregnancies
Lower abortion rate.
MUCH lower STD rate (often 50 times lower)
Healthy attitude towards the REAL moral issues involved in Sexual Relations.

Lizzie: Wake up. Adherance to Christian proscriptions about sex has disastrous consequences for BOTH
the Health of our young people
and
a healthy attitude towards the important role of Sexual relations in human relationships.

Is there such a thing as "healthy" pornography? When does it become unhealthy? Is child pornography healthy? The majority of people (usually men)who are arrested for committing sexual crimes against children and women have a history of looking at at more and more deviant pornography, often involving the most heinous crimes against children.
The Bible is not against sex; just read the Song of Solomon. It is against sex outside the restrictions that God has placed on sex for our protection-not to keep us from having fun-but for our good.
Sex outside of God's boundaries is what has led us into our current predicament.

The Bible is OFTEN a Terrible Tool

Jay, i appreciate your comments and largely agree with you, BUT

the Bible is often Egregiously Wrong on Moral issues.

Slavery is probably the most obvious example. Numerous examples of support of the institution through both testaments.

Advocay of Genocide by God just after the 10 commandments are given.

Child abuse, child murder for insubordination,

And modern person
who is not in Jail
follows the Bible VERY selectively
as a MOral Guide.

What's interesting about this topic is that it deals with religion, which is a man made institution. Jesus never outlined for his disciples how this institution should be ran, and to his credit. Peter was a disciple of Jesus whose charge was to spread the word. The word was not a collection of books written after the death of the Nazarene, it was a philosophy on the way people should live.

If my Sunday school hasn't failed me, I recall Jesus saying there was but one commandment, to "love thy neighbor," meaning that one should treat others with respect and dignity.

If this were truly the practice of Christians (Baptist, Protestants, Catholics, etc.), then the question would not be if sex is a sin, but when is sex sinful? The answer, when sex is consensual between any parties it is not sinful, just as having a glass of wine with dinner isn't unhealthy. Sex becomes sinful when not consensual or any party involved is not treated respectfully or with dignity; the same as imbibing a whole bottle of wine goes beyond the benefits associated with drinking in moderation.

For those who view the bible as more than a guidebook, shame on you. The bible is a powerful tool, in the same vein as a dictionary, but just because you know the definitions, doesn't mean you know how to use the words.

J. Rhinehardt;

Jesus ended that conversation with, "Go, and sin no more."

If you'd actually read the Bible, you'd know that Jesus said, "I am not come to judge the world, but to save the world." That was the first time, the second time isn't going to be quite so peaceful. See Revelation 19.

If you'd actually read the whole thread, you'd realize I am chief amongst sinners.

I found your statistics...they are skewed on purpose, the European numbers are taken from 1996 and the United States numbers from 2000...I'm not sure if that matters, but it isn't an accurate comparison.

johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/mapworldabrate.html
johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd.html
guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

Either way, the statistics are not nearly as conclusive as you stated, and you assumed that 90% of the United States was Christian, that is a bit high in comparison to the latest George Barna poll that found 9% of American's to be Christian(by empirical examination, not by profession).

If you are going by Sam Harris's numbers, then you have alligned yourself with someone who admittedly loves death and hates God, and who will purposefully modify his results to show Christians in a bad light.

The fact is, I'm not sure how we got into the numbers game, the Bible's view of sexuality is right, the followers of the Bible can be 100% wrong; that doesn't change the perfect view given by the Bible.

To get back to Bishop Spong's comments, I would disagree that Christianity equates holiness with sexlessness. I knows one denomination forbids its priests from marrying, the same denomination that holds that Jesus' mother remained a virgin. But, I don't think that holds for most other denominations.

Personally, I think a married pastor, with kids, is better able to counsel me if I am having difficulties in my family relationships.

As for the guy who is calling himself 'A Baptist Pastor', it is not true that Jesus accepted everyone's lifestyle, or even that he did not condemn them. He was loving and gentle to everyone, but he did call us all to repentance.

TO CANYON SHEARER,
“You are making it sound like Christ is not angry with unregenerate sinners, like He will not judge them.” --- Shearer

Christ, if you mean Jesus, the Nazarene, did not judge sinners. Remember the woman accused of prostitution? Jesus did not cast a stone, he did not even stand by while others mobbed her. He communicated several written messages to the men who were so eager to condemn her (I wonder why), evidently messages that were very revealing. And then he said, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” I can imagine you standing among those men. Can you?

Brambleton? You are offended that this:

"Jesus offered love and acceptance to all regardless of their uniquenesses."

is being touted as true?

Surely the offence and shame is that such a statement is seen by you as incorrect!!
You are indeed a Baptist and a Christian...And what a tragedy that is.

Baptist Pastor,

Surely you jest...you condemn Canyon Shearer for lacking "a complex understanding of scripture...." You go on to state that he is reading the Bible "superficially and out of context." But isn't this precisely what every Protestant religion has done since Martin Luther?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I agree with Mr. Schearer. But what I am saying is who gave the Baptist Church, or any of its pastors, authority to declare the true meaning of the Bible?

Luther opened the Pandora's box of self-determinism and moral relativism. This has trickled down to this day where people like "Bishop" Spong proclaim that homosexuality is "healthy" and virginity is "distorted."

Jesus built his one true church upon Simon (called Peter). Peter passed his authority to Linus, then to Anacletus, then to Clement, and so on until today, with the authority now resting with Pope Benedict XVI. The Catholic church professes homosexuality to be unhealthy, and virginity to be a state of grace.

Many of you will mock the Catholic church because of the recent scandal involving its priests and the cover-up. But to the church's credit, it has not changed its teachings on sexuality to justify its behavior. Instead, it has condemned its own behavior, apologized for its failings, and sought to restore itself to righteousness.

There is but one truth to which we will all be held accountable.

Abortion Rates for Teenagers

To check up on James
i went to that web site. he's right, AND

also found this

Abortion Rate
(per 1,000 Women Ages 15 to 19)

U.S. 27.5
France 10.2
Netherlands 4.2
Germany 3.6

Which of us (besides Canyon) doubts that the
US TEEN ABORTION RATE SEVEN TIMES HIGHER THAN GERMANY
is because of the restrictive policies towards Sexual health information in the US (and condom distribution)
which is DUE TO
the influence of the Christian Right more than any other single factor (it's not the secular humanists).
This is a scandal.

Baptist Pastor (that's a joke) said, "What it really means to be a Christian was modelled for us by Jesus Christ who never condemned anyone but offered love and acceptance to all regardless of their uniquenesses."

Really? Anyone who has read 1/2 of the Bible would realize this statement is completely inaccurate and absurd. I'm offended by this comment as both a Baptist and a Christian.

Canyon's Reprehensible Misrepresentations on Sexuality

this from a Youth advocacy website:
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsest.htm

Highlight: us Teen pregnancy rate FOUR TIMES higher than France, NINE TIMES higher than Netherlands.
Canyon's criminal christian apologetics lead to tragedies: morally reprehensible.

The Facts
Adolescent Sexual Health in Europe and the U.S.—Why the Difference?

Also available in [PDF] format.

Each summer since in 1998, Advocates for Youth and the University of North Carolina at Charlotte sponsor annual study tours to France, Germany, and the Netherlands to explore why adolescent sexual health outcomes are so much more positive in the three European countries than in the U.S.

Rights. Respect. Responsibility.® The study tour participants—policy makers, researchers, youth-serving professionals, foundation officers, and youth—have found that this trilogy of values underpins a social philosophy regarding adolescent sexual health in these countries. Each of these nations has an unwritten social contract with young people: "We'll respect your right to act responsibly, giving you the tools you need to avoid unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections, including HIV."

In these nations, societal openness and comfort in dealing with sexuality, including teen sexuality, and pragmatic governmental policies create greater, easier access to sexual health information and services for all people, including teens. Easy access to sexual health information and services leads to better sexual health outcomes for French, German, and Dutch teens when compared to U.S. teens.
Adolescent Pregnancy, Birth, and Abortion Rates in Europe Far Outshine Those in the U.S.*

Canyon's Fantasy abortion Rates

Look up this reference
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

On their index,
the rates are

US .69
Belgium .21
(Netherlands .20
Finland .47
Germany .23
Italy .34

Canyon is a completely unreliable narrator on any subject.

That is the ONE thing that will NEVER CHANGE.

You always step in the same canyon twice, saith Heraclitus

I'm intrigued by the Bishop's observation that sexual repression ultimately led to "unhealthy" pornography. Seeing as we are now 40+ years removed from the sexual revolution, it's hard not to argue that pornography begets pornography. As the world has increasingly dispensed with traditional religion-guided views of sex, it has increasingly gravitated towards pornography.

Furthermore, Prong decries religion for distorting sex as "something evil that must be repressed". You know, like, those crazy religious folk who call pornography "unhealthy". Prong still wants to repress your sexual urges, just not as much as his more narrow-minded predecessors.

I agree with Bishop Spong's assessment of the malignment of sexuality by western Christianity; the prevalent Christian culture has for eons viewed sexuality as a shameful thing. However, this view does not particularly reflect the biblical understanding of sexuality, but rather, the misunderstanding and fear of sinful humanity, separated from a complete relationship with its Creator.

I must say that I find the venomous and personal posts on this article to be despicable and contrary to civil and intellectual discussion. Yes, it is true that many who have claimed to be Christians have subjugated and wrongly harmed millions of people. It is also true that many Christians today do not spend time thoroughly and honestly critiquing their faith and the manner in which that faith is acted out.

However, if you would vie to change these Christians’ understanding of sexuality and the world, you would do much better to speak in love and rationality -- rise above the trivial-mindedness, please. Rather than continuing this cycle of venom and malice, we must all, no matter what faith system or philosophical view we hold, commit to a higher standard, that we may not become just as those who have harmed us.

Canyon
Sam Harris's statistics directly contradict yours.

Given the level of reasoning in the rest of your posts,

I'm going with Sam.

Russel D.,

Thank you for the honest responce and openmind. Sin for season is very fun, imagine if you jump off of the Empire State Building without a parachute, and you are in radio contact with the people at the top. As you jump you say, "This is the most incredible feeling I've ever had!" Around the 50th floor they ask for an update, you say, "So far so good!"

Sin for a season is a blast, but if you trangress the Law of Gravity, it is just a matter of time before you face the consequences. The Law of God is much like the Law of Gravity.

As for thanking God for my abilities, that has been a major topic of discussion recently since both Superbowl coaches this year have a non-stop tickets to Heaven after they die; paid in full by Jesus Christ. Our ability is directly related to the amount of work we put into our efforts, so the winning coach, whose name escapes me completely, thanked the Lord for the drive to become the best, not for the win.

It would be nice to think that my hand-eye coordination were completely my own, that my lungs were operating at peak efficiency because I made them that way, that my heart didn't burst during the stressful moments...

But the truth is, I'm in control of very little of my body, fortunately most of it is automated; I can't make my heart beat faster or slower, I can't increase my lung capacity when I need more oxygen, my musles all work perfectly, if I had to think, "Grip baseball(My sport is Baseball) bat, judge speed of baseball, judge trajectory based on rotation, convert food to energy, blink to moisten eyes, contract right bicept, loosen left bicep, lift left foot, contract right calf..." The baseball game would be over before I even had half of it figured out, and there is no way I could hit the Ball. The majority of my talents(and yours, even if you don't believe in God) are Godgiven, the only place where I excel is that I've been able to hone those skills to be just a little better than most.

Anonymous, assuming you are the same anonymous as before, please read the Bible, realize that Catholics are not Christians, then we'll talk.

Pastor, thank you for expressing you concern, it is duly noted. Jesus Christ is not these peoples friend, He has expressed in exacting terms that they are His enemies. Jesus Christ does not accept ANYONE based on who they are, He will forgive a repentant person and His Love was manifested in offering to purchase their souls from the Devil. God will not accept someone who has blasphemed the offer, He will not forgive the unrepentant.

If you believe otherwise, it may be a good idea for you to take a look at your Bible, because your post really made it sound like you haven't been redeemed.

In the meantime, PLEASE STOP posting things like what you posted. You are making it sound like Christ is not angry with unregenerate sinners, like He will not judge them. Remember, the first coming was to save, the second will be to judge.

James, anyone can make up statistics, and yet you are really bad at it. Your post intrigued me...so like anyone who actually wants to learn instead of tickling their ears, I looked it up.

USA - 23%
Europe - 20-30%

As for Abortion? 7% in the USA, 21% in the UK, 18% in Italy, 19% in Holland.

Please try again.

I agree with Baptist Pastor on 2 things:

1. Jesus was the man and he set a very good example for people to live.

2. Canyon needs to be quiet.

I realize that one can't speak for the many, and I by no means categorize all Christians based on Canyon's unfounded reasoning. I just wish there were more level headed people out there when it comes to religion.

Does Christianity Promote STD's?

A bit of evidence:

The rate of STDs in the US, where belief in the Christian God is around 90%, is MUCH HIGHER than in similarly developed European countries where belief in God is around 15-30%. (Abortion rates are higher in US also) Gonorrhea rates are 70 times higher in US than in Holland.

Bishop Spong in his intellligent article is correct: the Christian perversion of a common sensical moral and spirtual approach to sexuality leads to many many social ills that could be avoided by enlightenment.

A BAPTIST PREACHER: Is Jesus Christ the ONLY Christ?

Why do absolute truths require faith to be believed?

Have you reviewed http://www.hoax-buster.org yet? Were all Pharaoh's Christs? Was Jesus a female Pharaoh at a time when women were shut out of Pharaohing, saving folks from the monser Eater in the underworld? Is Eater "the one" that Baptists are saved from?

Canyon Shearer, PLEASE STOP!!! You are only making a fool out of yourself. You do not have a complex enough understanding of Scripture to have a clue what you are saying. You are reading superficially and out of context. Unfortunately the rest of the world looks at people like you and assumes that you represent all Christians. I assure you that this is not the case.

To everyone else, Please understand that this man and his views do not represent the entire Christian world. I wish that I could say that he is an anomaly but unfortunately his kind are too prevalent for that. I will say that what he and most other fundamentalists represent is a tragic and dangerous parody of true Christian faith. What it really means to be a Christian was modelled for us by Jesus Christ who never condemned anyone but offered love and acceptance to all regardless of their uniquenesses.

----.the result is masses of deserving and undeserving dying of AIDS, gross sexual deviation, terrible child-molestation rates.----

What a crock!

'Deserving' of dying of AIDS? What a nice Chritian you are.

And AIDS is still spreading in Africa (in mostly hetrosexual sex acts) thanks to The Pope and the Catholics sickening dosplay of vindictiveness.
Wear a condom you go to hell! Don't wear one and you can catch AIDS!

If your God exists then surely the Human sex drive is God-made?
So why punish those who act on it by stopping them protecting themselves from (obviously) one of God's nice little virus's??

Why did God give us a sex drive that, unlike animals, is not based around the need to procreate or at only certain times of the (breeding) year?
Why give us the feeling of love?

It seems MAN MADE prejudices are to blame for the spread of AIDS thanks to scumbag Catholic doctrines.

And as for molested children!!??
Take a long look at your 'called by God' Priests who rape children and their Holy masters who cover it all up!!

Typical hypocrisy and garbage from the Bible thumpers I see.

---t is these repressive attitudes that have come back to haunt us in such destructive manifestations as the denigration of women, the systemic abuse of children and the cultural negativity toward gay and lesbian people. That is hardly a heritage upon which Christians can look with pride---

Best paragraph this place has printed.

Rev Spong,

Thank you for the essay. It reminds me of the book, "Eunuchs For The Kingdom Of Heaven". That was quite an eye-opener for me back a number of years ago.

Canyon Shearer is getting more traffic than the panelist. Just goes to show the why PT Barnum ran a freak show. They get more attention than regular folks by bunches, people even pay to see them. Where do we send the money Canyon?

You got that many absolute words of God do ya? God couldn't make up God's mind? They're all hoaxes. Hoaxes make freak out of ya. The big money goes to those who sell tickest to see freaks and a dollar or two to them.

Good essay bishop.

Joe Campbell,

Hey there , I am back again, and you know what, I like the way you speak when you actually speak to someone instead of putting them down. You may have a point about the strict rules of the Bible.
And I like that you admit you have urges and aren't perfect. I'm not perfect, I'll admit it. But the mistakes I make are totally different than yours. if I see a bikini show, I am gonna watch it-plain and simple.I accept who I am, and all I can do is be the best that I can. I don't thank God for good things I do, I don't thank Him if I score a hat-trick at my indoor soccer game. I thank myself and my teammates, because in the end, all you have to rely on is yourself and the people around you. I admire a person who has faith in Christ and God, but I also feel sorry for that person, you know why? Because they have no belief in themslves and their abilities. that is where real power lies. Within oneself is where one can truly find happiness. Being true to yourself and fulfilling your own goals.

That is a fair way to look at the Bible from the outset. If the Bible were God's word, what would we expect to see from it?

Most people, like Bishop Spong, want God to be on their side, they want God to agree with what they want to do, because in their own minds, they are right, and know how things should be. If God doesn't agree with them, then either God is wrong, or the passage wasn't written by God.

Other people, like myself and Abraham Lincoln realize that God's is the side of right, and we want to be on God's side, because God can't be on our side if our side isn't right.

The Bible is so strict in extramarital sexuality as to say, "He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery already with her in his heart." From my own experiential faith, I know that my relationships with women are infinitely better when I'm looking them in the eyes instead of the cleavage. I know my relationship with my girlfriend is strengthened when she sees me change the channel when a bikini/beer commercial comes on or when I fast forward through a sex-scene. My girlfriend sees the external contrition and can infer the inward imputed righteousness.

There is a lot of that sort of thing in the Bible. You know it's wrong to murder; the Bible tightens that rule to say that if you're unjustifiably angry with someone, you have a murderous heart. The Bible says if you've told one lie, you are a liar. That's a little strict, until you consider if you murder one person, you're a murderer, if you rape one girl, you're a rapist. But the major problem is that most of us have told more than one lie.

The Bible is very strict when it comes to those who have stolen anything, irregardless of value. The penalty under God-ordained Judges was death. Today we have no God-ordained judges, the only One who can legally judge an adulterer, a liar, a thief to be guilty unto death is Jesus Christ; all the rest of us can do is warn of the impending judgement.

As you know, the Bible has two destinations after death; Heaven and Hell. The ONLY way into Heaven is perfect righteousness. How do you look in that arena? I didn't, don't, and never will have the amount of righteousness necessary to get myself into Heaven. If I were judged on my lustfilled glances, lies, moments of anger, larceny, I would be guilty and my just desert would be Hell.

But God is not willing that any should perish in the Lake of Fire, and gave us a way to be so righteous as to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

God had a wonderful plan in order to impute His righteousness on us. First there was a fine to be paid for our past, present, and future transgressions. God paid that fine by creating a Body and filling it with His Spirit, where He lived a perfect life as the Man, Jesus Christ. On a false charge God was hung on the cross in a garbage dump outside of Jeruselem, and died the death we had earned and that we deserved. God paid the fine that was due of us; but not only that, but as He ascended into Heaven, He gave us His Spirit so that if we'll put on the Righteousness of God, we will be allowed entry into Heaven, not because we deserve it, but because our fine has been paid in Jesus Christ, and His Righteousness accounted to our sake.

In order to receive this Gift freely given, you must turn from your sins; confess to God that any of our morals which do not align with His perfection are wrong, adhere as closely as you can with righteousness, and then put your full faith in Jesus Christ to forgive you based on His merits.

"I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem."
- Job 29:14

Canyon,

You may have a point, but I don't use anything in excess. I rarely see a need to, but that isn't the point, is it?

Why doesn't the Bible agree with what I want to do?

Simple.......because the Bible isn't the word of God, it is a political manifesto derived by people in power to control those who they see as beneath them. The Bible shouldn't be followed to the letter, it should be looked at as more of a guideline.

Russel D.

That is a good point. Sex and drugs can feel really good; but even the religion of hedonism recognizes the need for moderation.

I'm going to have to resort to Alcohol as an illustration, as it is the only drug mentioned in the Bible.

The Bible does not prohibit sex or drugs, it places constraints and suggestions on them. The Bible states that you should dilute your wine with water by a ration of 1:8, and not to get drunk off of it, but it goes so far as to even recommends wine ingestion with meals.

Any hedonist will agree that drinking till you're sick is no fun. So the question isn't, why are their constraints, but rather, which constraints are right?

The same with sex, the Bible states that a monogomous relationship is best, a hedonist realizes that sex for sex sake is unfullfilling and can lead to boredom. Which is right?

The nice thing to realize is that science backs up the Bible, we know that red wine is good for you, and that mass doses of alcohol is bad for you. We know that promiscuousness can lead to STI's, and abstinence doesn't. We know that unfaithfulness is bad for relationships and fidelity is good.

So the question isn't, which is right? The question is,

"Why doesn't the Bible agree with what I want to do?"

I have to admit, Canyon is a funny guy. But he does pose some good questions. They should be answered, but not by me. I am sure that anybody who studies the Bible and History knows why rome fell, but that is besides the point.

The whole discussion was about the negative views regarding sexuality placed upon us by religion. Why is sex regarded as so bad? Cause it feels so good. Ever wonder why things that the public regard as good(sex, pot, etc.,)are condemned by the Moral Authority?

What we need to realise is that religion is about power, and it uses sex to solidify its power, among other things. People nee to get off their high horse and open their eyes.

Anonymous, very nice, you've proved how little you know about the Bible.

Brian, that is beautiful how well you took the term Luddite out of context, absolutely gorgeous.

Where do you get off calling HIV an STD? It has nothing to do with a disease, it is an infection.

Also, where do you get off calling God a loving God? That is only 1/3 right. God is a loving God to those born into His family, and He is exceedingly patient with those who are not, but you are not under a loving God, and neither are those spreading the HIV Virus, they are actually under the God of Wrath.

Where do you get off saying that Christian's are hampering the fight against HIV? It seems that the majority of those passing out vaccines are there are on missionary trips.

Where do you get off thinking that Christians will cause the empire to fall? That's exactly the reason Rome fell, isn't it? They banded around the God of Love and shirked sexual sin for righteousness?

When you get a clue, please come back and post again.

Thanks You Mr. Spong!
This is exactly the rational antidote I needed
after reading Cal Thomas' stomach-turning justifications for his homophobia.

Anyone who mentions "God's boundaries" for sexuality
is just using double-speak for "God hates fags".

Did anyone else see the PBS special regading Bonobo sexuality VS. Chimp sexuality?

Very insightful: The matriarchial, and very sexual bonobos, are SO much more peaceful and (seemingly) intelligent than the Patriarchical, violent Chimps.

My prayer: God, please help Cal Thomas, and his obtuse minions find the truth.

Mr. Spong has a very good perspective on things. I like him.
Canyon Shearer is just a funny guy. I like him to. I wouldn't be his friend, but I like him cause he's so uninformed that it's hilarious.

I am an atheist, and guess what, I read the Bible, and I also like to read up on other religions too. All I can say is this:the Bible is a book, plain and simple. Yes, it has good parts to it that should be looked at, but only looked at as guidelines, not TO THE LETTER. and yes, our empire might fall, but not due to sex, but due to incompetent leadership and our populations' lack of energy towards trying to fix it.

Mr. Spong could almost convert me to his form of Christianity, he writes with great reason.

Canyon Shearer must be a parody, he cannot possibly be real. Can he?

Canyon Shearer:

You state so many so-called 'facts' in your posts that are not supported by scientific evidence that I don't know where to begin. I'm surprised that Luddites like you actually know how to use a computer.

STD's like AIDS are not God's punishment for sexual immorality any more than catching the flu is God's punishment for not washing your hands 3 times a day. Have you even visited someone who was dying of AIDS? It is not a punishment that I would wish upon my worst enemy, and I don't believe that a loving God would want his children to suffer like that. It is people like you that hamper our efforts to combat this disease using methods that are proven to work.

The 'Empire' will not fall because of sexual immorality and pornography. It will fall because of American Fascists like you want to control how everyone in the country thinks and acts.

Canyon Shearer writes:

"...the U.S.A.'s addiction to Porn will be cited by future historians as a major contributing factor to why the empire fell."

No, Canyon, when the American empire falls, it won't be because of an addiction to pornography.

It's much more likely to be caused by the addiction of fundamentalist Christians to voting for one of their own, who, in turn, is addicted to violence and to talking to his imagined God.

Canyon Shearer:

The Bible provides the moral map? Do you still think that witches shall not be suffered to live? That adulterers should be stoned? That women coming to marraige after losing their virginity shoud die. That slavery is sanctioned by God? That eating oysters is an intolerable abomination?

If the Bible provides the moral map, God help us all. Or perhaps I should say Zeus help us all - he may do a better job.

To all the thoughtful folks of the blogosphere,

I thought I might offer my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Mormon worldview on this topic and share how I believe LDS theology faithfully transcends the Virgin/W h o r e dichotomy as I think it relates directly to Mr. Spong's comments.

For those unfamiliar, the V/W is a theory connected to widespread perceptions of female sexuality that spring from the two main female figures in the bible.

Mary of course as the mother of Jesus is most often given divine and even holy status in view of her willingness to bear and raise the Messiah while maintaining her status as a young virgin.

In contrast, Eve the first mother, is often sited as being given “secondary“ status in the marriage relationship following her instigation of the fall of mankind from paradise in choosing to partake of as well as offering forbidden fruit to Adam.

The V/W idea essentially asserts that a woman’s morality and sexuality, as perceived by both men and women, categorically falls into either a submissive Mother without sexuality (good) or a Female as Pursuer/Instigator (bad).

The V/W complex is sometimes used to describe men who want to marry the “good girl” and spend the night with the “bad girl” and the trouble that naturally arises from such. The dichotomy is also used, at least in part, to explain both male and female frustration with traditional sexual norms.

I love, what LDS theology offers in additional scripture, revelation and teachings that I believe faithfully transcends the V/W and restores the virtue of Eve, sexuality and the in turn the marriage relationship.

In the Pearl of Great Price (additional LDS scripture restored in 1830 believed to be revealed to Joseph Smith), I find an expanded understanding of Eve and her relationship with Adam. She is curious and desirous of knowledge in her attraction to partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
She is honest, insightful and joyful in her statements that follow the consequences of partaking it - seeing herself as one who has now gained profound knowledge and meaning in entering the fallen world, understanding the atonement/her redemption and in becoming a parent.
She and Adam till the earth together, raise their children together, call upon God together and share their sorrows together.
In the Doctrine and Covenants section 138 (additional LDS scripture believed to be revealed to Joseph F. Smith in 1918), I find the true end of Eve’s choices and life. In vision, a glorified Eve is seen upon a throne beside an equally enthroned and glorified Adam.
Furthermore, I find in LDS theology that while sexual relationships are forbidden outside of marriage, sexuality in marriage is upheld as a sacred and beautiful expression of love and unity between a husband and wife.
Instead of being seen as a dirty earth bound necessity to procreation, it is seen as a potentially sanctifying experience in the marriage relationship for both the man and the woman in addition to being celebrated as the ushering in of the utmost of earthly blessings - a child.
In LDS theology, the “powers of procreation” will even persist into the hereafter within covenant marriage relationships.

In these scriptures and teachings, I find the divine status of motherhood maintained, female inquisition, intelligence and sexuality as virtuous clarified and the marriage relationship lived as an equal partnership despite men and woman being given different roles exemplified.

Here I find an ideal I can embrace as my own and am happy to recommend.

Mr Spong,
Great article.

Canyon Shearer,
Climb back into your cave, we can do without you. If you believe in Heaven so devoutly, please go there ASAP.

Bishop Spong,

I constantly wonder just which Bible you are reading from. I have a huge collection of Bibles and religious texts; I am proud this week to have procurred the maliciously translated Jehovah Witness (NWT) Bible, and even so, none of them say what you have posted.

Sex is a gift of God, sacred, beautiful, in the words of "Go Fish", when singing their 10-Commandment Boogie, "Number Seven feels like Heaven, but only with your Husband or Wife". But just like all gifts, it is possible to abuse, corrupt, and love the gift more than the giver.

Consider this, nonmonogomous sex ONE TIME can result in any of the following;
HPV
HSV
HIV
Chlamidia
Gonnoreah
Syphilis

But when in a committed one-partner relationship, you can have sex a million times and never catch any of those.

Christianity does not foster a negative view of sexuality, it fosters a healthy, truthful, righteous, fulfilling view with no ramifications.

Sure, the current humanist society says have sex with anyone in any way, we don't care, it's your body...the result is masses of deserving and undeserving dying of AIDS, gross sexual deviation, terrible child-molestation rates.

The reason pornography has been legalized is because after it was legalized in 1963 in Denmark, violent sexual crimes decreased dramatically. Porn-addicts are quick to fly to that event and those statistics. But today violent and deviant sexual crimes is on the rise. The legalization of pornography simply allowed for the slipperly slope to begin, and the USA's addiction to Porn will be cited by future historians as a major contributing factor to why the empire fell.

Every book in the New Testament and most books in the Old Testament directly address sexual morality.

Scientific research shows that sexual immorality leads to sexually transmitted infections and even death. Common sense has shown that sexual deviance is a source of personal strife, hollowness, unhappiness; while a sexually fulfilled marriage is the polar opposite.

Sex is a wonderful gift; rightly used, unabused, and with reverence to the giver, it proves to be a testament to the Glory of God.

Once again the Bible has proved to be the correct moral map, while human experience fails.