Proper Pride Takes Real Humility

TPM Baum and Justillthen:

It is pretty amazing that each of us has had our own 'revelation' in regards to God. Mine was while I was sitting in my back yard listening to the birds and the waterfalls at my fish pond.

It was an amazing feeling, something I could not ever describe, but I knew instictively that something just touched my 'soul'. I have carried that feeling ever since and it makes me happy.

So, in the end, it appears that we are all right. Each one in their own way.

Blessings to you both!

Gaby

Thank you Thomas for your thoughts. I like where you come from and I agree with it. The world would be a better place if all people of faith were as devoted and sincere in their spiritual focus and practice, and committed to their own Path toward the Divine, yet were as allowing and non-judgemental in the obvious diversity and individuality of Life and of Creation.
Your concept of giving back to God the free will that is of our Nature is nice. It is true for me, though I thought of it a bit differently. Yet what 'we' choose is so often derived from the 'ego', the separated and ignorant little i. To choose to do what we are called to do from God is often so contrary to what little me would prefer. But the rewards are so much greater when we do works that are for a Greater Good. And a Greater God, than the little one that most people often serve.
On this day I pray that all the members of the human family and from them out into creation remember, in small of large or unknown ways, their connection to a greater whole, and in the embrace of the unity of that whole, find appreciation for participating as one of these many. There is much to be thankful for.
I appreciate the dialogue with you Thomas, and I wish a wonderful Thanksgiving for you and yours.
Justin

JUSTILLTHEN

Justin, thank you and may God Bless your Way also. You referred to "many Paths" and I agree. Jesus referred to the narrow path and as you have alluded to, my path and your path and other people's path are not the same.

The destination may be the same but the path isn't, we are not called to be robotons or puppets on a string or clones in lock-step but to be human beings.

Jesus said, "Come follow Me", and as I have said previously on these postings that there are some, who do not believe in God whatsoever or do not believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate, that follow Jesus much better than some that believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate.

When Jesus said, " I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me", He said "to the Father", not to God and there is nothing in there about the way or ways to Jesus.

It says, "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts", I am glad that you have met God and how God has revealed Himself to you is God's Business or one of "His Ways", so to speak. We are all individuals and God not only made us as individuals but He delights and respects our individuality.

This is not to say that there will not be judgement, we are responsible for what we do and also for what we neglect to do, but Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand.

No matter what anyone believes, we are all human beings so we are all members of the human family and it is important how we treat the members of our family, HUMANITY.

Sometimes people, whether they believe in God or not, try to limit God and the only limits that God has are His Self-Imposed Limits, God gave us free will, it would not be truly free if it was only partly free will.

I also believe that we can freely give our will back to God so that we can be who God created us to be. This does not turn us into a "puppet on a string" for God as some might imagine and it also does not take away our personal faults and shortcomings but, at least for me, it is to believe that God's Plan is worth giving my all for.

Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving and remember we are ALL in this together and exactly how God's Plan will continue to unfold, I don't know, but It will.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ThomasBaum:

Thank you for your story. It is quite inspirational and I am sure very transformative for you, to say the least. I understand, in my own way, the kind of experience that you are sharing. There is little that touches us more that these trancendent and earthshaking experiences.

I have met God too, as God has shown himself to me, and emmisaries of His, and there is nothing in my life that has been the same since. My experience is markedly different than yours in a number of ways, but at the core is seems that it is the same. In the end it is One God. To me it is One God with many faces, many Paths. But it is in the end only the One God and us.
I have deep respect for your experience and of God and the vision of God that you received. Again, my experience is different, but that is as it should be. The form of Trinity is not the way that God showed himself to me, although in further experience did embrace it as true. Yet at the core of my experiences I have been directed always to the singular Unity that God is inside of all Creation, myself as part of it. As you experienced God inside you, coming into your Heart. God IS inside you, AS you, as connected and One with you as your spirit and soul are connected to and one with your body, for the life of the body.
Closer than your heart.

I love the things that you wrote and responded as soon as I could... I hope to come back for more soon. I look forward to further posts from you.
God Bless your Way,
Justin

NEVERMORE53:

Thanks for your reply.

If you were not conceding the point then it is not a contradiction. You believe that physicality is the only way to affect physicality, (unless this too is an assumption that is incorrect).

My point is that I believe that it is POSSIBLE that spirit, here Divinity, may directly affect physicality. Lay term may be that "magic happens". It does not mean to me that ""Divine Semen" had to somehow "penetrate" her egg" as 'penetration' does not need to happen... Spirit and substance overlap. That it if you believe in spirit as distinct from the body. But they reside together.
Which furthers the argument that we and the "Divine" are one. As "we" and spirit are one.

JUSTILLTHEN

Some words you wrote that Jesus said, "Greater Works must you do in the name of the Father than I have done....

Greater than what Jesus did? We must do?"

When the Apostles said, "These are hard sayings", they sure weren't kidding were they?

Jesus said many things that would have had to have come from someone totally insane, at the least, if He was not Who He said that He Is, which is God-Incarnate.

God became One of us and then you could say that He left it in our hands, so to speak, but He also said that He would be with us until the end of the age and that He would send the Holy Spirit to help us and guide us.

I am counting on that.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JUSTILLTHEN

You wrote, "My bigger point is that in truth we do not Know God."

What I am saying is that I have met God and know that He is Real. I have met God and know that He is a BEING OF LOVE, that Love is not an attribute of God but is His Very Being.

It seems that you might be putting more into the Knowing God than I am. I met God and know He is Love, it really is that simple.

There is plenty that I don't know, I am not a know-it-all, I am just a messenger. God cares and so should we.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To say the least, it came as quite a shock to meet God, Who is a Trinity, and to be chosen by God to speak for Him.

God is not some kind of big dictation machine in the sky as some people seem to characterize Him.

Jesus said, "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you into all Truth", well, one of the things that I have noticed is that the Holy Spirit can speak thru whomever He wishes to and sometimes the person that He speaks thru is totally oblivious to it, satan can speak thru others too.

I can and do say that God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE for the simple reason that when God the Father came into my heart, I knew that what I was taught in second grade that God is Love was quite literal.

After meeting, shall we say, ALL Three Members of the Trinity, I thought that it was all over but it was just beginning. God chose me and I have said YES. God has a Plan and He has had His Plan since before creation and He chose me before creation to be who I am, a messenger, even tho I did not know it until I knew it.

If God was even remotely like what some of those that know His Name think that He is, I can't see how anyone would want to have anything to do with Him.

I will try to go into other stuff you asked about but for now I will send this.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

A couple of hours later at my Mom's house, God allowed satan to come down, not up, to work me over, shall we say, for 24 plus hrs. In the course of quite a lot happening, I ended up at Perry Point VA hospital in Perry Point, MD.

At the hospital on four points, I experienced hell and spiritual death, not a near-death experience.

I have also had a couple of dreams that I know were from God and in one, I was told that "only I could say it", I had no idea what it was that only I could say, so I dove into bible studies.

I have never read the whole bible, I have never tried to "figure out" the bible, also for about 30 years, I pretty much never went to church but I always did believe in God and one of the things that I used to believe was that Jesus died for everyone except me, well as I put it, close but no cigar, Jesus died for everyone including me.

This is one of the reasons that I say, lots of people take sin seriously, other people's sins. It doesn't matter to me if people call it sin or doing wrong or whatever. I took mine seriously, I can't live anyone else's life but there sure do seem to be quite a few people who want to tell others how to live their lives and/or be their conscience.

JUSTTILLTHEN

Hi Justin, you asked, "How do you Know that?"

I have had a number of experiences that I just know to be true. I will try to briefly put them into words.

On 28 Jan 2000, while driving my car across the bay bridge in MD with one of my brothers in it, God the Father came into my heart. I can't tell you how I knew it was God the Father because I don't know how I knew it, I just knew that it was God the Father.

He didn't say a word, He didn't have to.

On 29 Jan 2000 at St Luke's Church in Ocean City, Md, God the Holy Spirit came into my body and, in the course of the Mass that I was at, revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus. The Holy Spirit revealing this to me was not by words, at a very specific point, I just knew.

There is the Trinity.

JUSTILLTHEN

Blocked mine too. Look for three.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

DITLD:

You crack me up!!! God is a Republican!

You are right, however, in stating that we try to conceptualize God in a familiar way. That has really never worked for me. For me God is part of the universe itself. And just like I can't comprehend the universe as a whole, I concede that I can't comprehend God.

I would be an atheist, but my instict tells me that there is a higher power. I just happen to not like the religious depictions of that higher power hence I am not religious, but spiritual.

God loves us so much, he doesn't communicate with us after he "inspires" some guys to write some books about utter nonsense. Thanks a ton!

Justillthen:

I enjoyed your comments to Thomas and me.

Couple of comments:

"I am not neccessarily against the idea of physical insemination, or of a human birth of the man called Jesus, but hold the belief that not all physical manifestation must have a physical cause."

In this case it must have been a physical cause, because Mary was human. The "Divine Semen" had to somehow "penetrate" her egg, otherwise she wouldn't have become pregnant. Or are you suggesting that the "supreme one" just wanted to know what it's like to reside in a woman's body for 9 month by simply imbedding itself like some larva??

"So you then concede that God could manifest a Trine of Itself exclusive of physical birth."

No, I am not conceding, I was theorizing that "If", "Then", " It Could". But It didn't, It needed the human to manifest itself as a human being.

No one knows what God is. Many people seek to reduce God to a comprehensible, understandable size. In doing that, we visuallize a metaphor of God with human-like traits. We refer to God as he or him, because this is the idiom of our thinking and the tool of our language. We think that God knows what we know, and cares about what we care about. We think that God looks down with concern on Virginia or Utah, or even on whole countries, like America and Iraq, when who is to say that these human conceptualizations would even resonate at all with God?

When we consider God as a metaphor with human-like qualities, aren't we just a step away from regarding God as a stone idol?

When I see all of the finely worked out theologies of all the many churches, that is what I think, that it is, in fact, difficult for people to think of God in any way other than as a sort of man-like being. But then, where is the evidence in that? There is none, anywhere.

Of course, all of this kind of talke is apostasy on a thread such as this. We do not really belong here talking about these things, for on theis thread, God is a Republican.

ThomasBaum:

One more point regarding your comment. About Love.
"...we are created by God in His Image and Likeness which is LOVE, since God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE, Love is not an attribute of God, Love is His very Being."

I like and agree that God is a being of PURE LOVE. It is the only thing that makes sense, although it does not square with OT teachings and Him being known as a Vengeful God. Revenge is far baser than what you are attributing to God, and the message that Jesus may have been delivering. Yet...
If ""...we are created by God in His Image and Likeness which is LOVE," then it is LOVE that is God in us, and our LOVING is Godliness, and to LOVE is to be God we are,
Just as I Am so you also must Be...
Greater Works must you do in the name of the Father than I have done....

Greater than what Jesus did? We must do?

We would have to be downright Godlike to do that stuff! A lot of Love polishing!

Well, at least we have good lineage.
Peace to you,
Justin

Hello Thomasbaum.

Part Two.

Second part of your comment comes from Infinity. Even biblically, Origin suggests Oneness. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God... La de dah, time passes, then six days and voila! the temporal world and all life, man included, (short-a-rib!), spring out of Creation... Infinity!
We are God, just have forgotten our minds... And our spiritual and soulular connection to Source. Searching for it we come up lacking far too much. Many do not search at all. They say they find nothing lacking. We do the best we can with what signposts are on the Path...
We are not just Children of God because the Bible tells us so. It is because, ( the story goes :-) ), there was only God and so from God we are created. Offspring of the Creator.
At least I like the idea better, and it makes for common sense.
I think that science and spirituality are in concert and always have been. We are, at least in this world, ruled by the Laws of this world. As we find greater knowledge our wisdom grows. Here all physicality does transform and it's elements go into any other form of physicality. Spirituality? Interconnection of thought or mind seems evident independent of physicality. Unity, inter-communication and oneness of Spirit may be shown to be natural and a birthright.
I am back to Infinity, and being of God, as God, Ignorant of it.
Now this is a little story and I have no way to prove it it 'True' but believe that it will be shown to be so. I do not expect that it fits well in your view of the world, but thought I would share it.
My bigger point is that in truth we do not Know God. The arrogance of such assertions are humorous, once I get past taking the insults personally.
God is what It Is, and we are blessed, and smart, to be looking to find more.
Thank you for your inputs on these forums.
Peace to you.
Justin

THOMASBAUM:

I tried a couple of times to send this post off, but seems that it was not successful... I'm not sure why. I send it now in two parts, hoping that it gets across the ethers.

Hello Thomasbaum.

I always read your posts when I come across them. I usually enjoy what you say even if I do not agree. You are sincere in your belief and yet usually show caring with others that are at odds with your beliefs, and carefulness writing to them. You do always tend to state what you think the truth is, for you and all people, but seem to do it without much judgement. I like that.

It is clear that you believe in the Bible. And I am not a literalist...

It is curious that we all spout back and forth what God Is, what God isn't, that God Is or isn't, what He wants and thinks and means or that it is all rubbish...
I believe in 'God', but am sure that what That Is is far different than our small capacity for comprehension can fathom. Hence the stories or myths or ideas, or Books, that we have to understand the Incomprehesible are all the more valuable to help us wrap our minds around the Creator.
That said, I question this comment of yours:

"God is a Trinity and always has been, that is just the way it is and we are not part of God, we are created by God in His Image and Likeness which is LOVE, since God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE, Love is not an attribute of God, Love is His very Being."

How do you Know that? Outside of reading the Book, and faith that it is valid, how do you know? How does anyone know valid truth about the theory, the belief, that God exists? Much less what That Is?
I suggest we do not Know. We believe.
If God is all things then He can be a Trinity. Is he limited to some form or organization that we'ld call Three. ONE GOD suggests singular. Perhaps he is not Trinity, really is Infinity.

Nevermore53:

With respect, your reasoning might have a couple of holes in it. The obvious one being that you negate the ability of God to impregnate a human woman in any way other than through physical means. Are you depriving God of being a Magical Being? :-) I am not neccessarily against the idea of physical insemination, or of a human birth of the man called Jesus, but hold the belief that not all physical manifestation must have a physical cause.
Yet you then go on to say: "If god were an omnipotent triune being, part of it could have just materialized as Jesus, do his preaching, and get killed by the Romans to atone for our "sins"". So you then concede that God could manifest a Trine of Itself exclusive of physical birth.
If God could have done so, God could have materialized as 'Divine Semen" and we have Immaculate Conception.
I don't believe it, personally. I buy that it is hype from the early church as they swooned over the power of their guru, Jesus. But I also believe that Jesus could have done the miracles that are attributed to him.
Thank you for your post.

TPM Baum,

I beg to differ with you about the make-up of god.

First, I don't put god in a box, religious people do. Since I am ot religious there is no box.

Medically it is impossible for a woman to bear a child if there is not some sort of "penetration" (for lack of a better word), whether by sex, artificial insemination, etc. So, for Jesus to be god, god must have done "something" to Mary. By all acounts (if one can trust biblical accounts) she had a normal pregnancy and delivery.

God didn't create humans, because it can't. You say God is pure love, I say God is pure energy with cognitive powers. So in order to "create" us, it had to give us part if it. Some people call it soul, others call it consciousness. But that consiousness, that soul, is part of god and that is the part that will return to god.

If god were an omnipotent triune being, part of it could have just materialized as Jesus, do his preaching, and get killed by the Romans to atone for our "sins". No human pregnancy would have to be involved. But it couldn't do that, could it?It needed Mary to materialize as a human (if that story is indeed true).

So no, god didn't "create" us, it birthed us. That is why we are part of it, and it is part of us.

Is it possible that Mary was artificially impregnated with a super intelligent being by aliens who abducted here
while Joseph still thought she was a virgin?

Don't group all Secularists together as if we all want to get rid of Thanksgiving or any other holiday for that matter.

We want all of our friends and family to celebrate with us, thiests and non-thiests alike...and when we get together, we don't want to get into discussions about how and why we all got here and how our government legislates that.

MONO1

Actually, God sent many prophets, messengers, and then God, Himself, became One of us and came not only as a Messenger but also as the Message.

But as I have said many times, God does not look at whatever "label" one applies to oneself but looks at the person.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

NEVERMORE53

You wrote, " I can guarantee you that this spiritual being never come down to earth to have sex with a woman named Mary who then supposedly gave birth to his son."

I agree that God did not come down to earth to have sex with a woman named Mary, God does not fit into the box that you are trying to put Him into. Actually the Second Person of the Trinity became the Son of Man at the exact moment that He became the Son of God and that is when Mary said YES. Before that He was God, there was no sex involved.

You also wrote, "Also, god is not triune, nor has it ever been. If anything it is multi-faceted because we are all (animate and inanimate) part of it.

God is a Trinity and always has been, that is just the way it is and we are not part of God, we are created by God in His Image and Likeness which is LOVE, since God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE, Love is not an attribute of God, Love is His very Being.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

uno vs triuno.

all praise goes to the uno creator god of this universe,he desrve it all because he created it all .

the creator of mankind sent a mankind from among mankind(jesus and the rest of the prophets) to mankind to teach mankind about the messeage of the creator to mankind.

best wishes,take care and be ready for the uno mono creator god.

I have read this 5 times, and it does not make sense. It is obviously some kind of stream-of-consciousness type of writing. It is not really an "essay" in a traditional sense.

Even though I don't agree with alot of it, there is no easy way to critique it or criticize it, because there isn't really anything to it.

Notice, not even traditional, conservative Christian people are defending these comments, even though surely some must have read it and seen the negative comments.

All I can say is, I read it, but I don't get it.

TPM Baum,

I hate to burst your bubble. While I agree that god is not an egomaniac and that it is not a searcher of religious affiliations, I can guarantee you that this spiritual being never come down to earth to have sex with a woman named Mary who then supposedly gave birth to his son.

Also, god is not triune, nor has it ever been. If anything it is multi-faceted because we are all (animate and inanimate) part of it.

Take care, be ready.

Gaby

MONO1

You wrote, "not the god who nailed his son on the cross for the sake sin and mercey of mankind???"

I imagine you are speaking of Jesus, we nailed Him to the cross, God didn't.

You also wrote, "i,m sure you are talking about the creator god who never begt nor begot."

I imagine you are speaking of the god of islam, why would he pick Jesus, Who flat out said He was God, to be his prophet?

Either Jesus is God, God-Incarnate actually, and is speaking the Truth or He is lying, there is no middle ground here.

If Jesus is speaking the Truth and He Is, then the god of islam contradicts Jesus.

If Jesus was lying about such a thing then why would the god of islam pick Jesus to be his prophet?

The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, in other words, God is NOT an egomaniac.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

DanielintheLionsDen :
Sounds good.

No purpose; no point; platitudes; cliches; irrelevant

nuff said.

Dr reynolds,

i agree with you ,you discussion a topic that not only concern the nation but mankind in general .

i,m sure you are talking about the creator god who never begt nor begot.

not the god who nailed his son on the cross for the sake sin and mercey of mankind???

is,it the *continueous tradition* that you are talking about?

Dr. Mark John Reynolds writes: "It is this moment of reverential awe that makes morally tolerable the boundless American flag waving." And then goes on to say: "We are proud of our nation, but also aware of our faults and thankful for God's mercy."

Nothing can make our " boundless American flag waving" morally tolerable. I would accept "patriotic zeal," but that wouldn't either be morally tolerable. The flag waving is too often attended by our arrogance in the face of our faults of which we are not often aware of either. I long ago graudated from high school without being taught that genocide was a policy of the U.S. Government--or at least by Gen Sherman who thought and acted as if the only good Indian was a dead Indian.
It was nice that our first President freed all his slaves upon his death, but wouldn't one wonder why he waited until they could no longer serve him? Another item I did not learn from my American History class.
And so it goes, from the first to the last--who couldn't and probably still can't remember anything he did wrong while he was our President.
It's a pretty ho-hum commentary Dr., but one thing I do agree with--we should all be thankful for God's mercy for we need it so much.

Wow. That's the most arrogant pronouncement of, 'You should all be humble and obey my religion' I've heard in a while.

If this President decides to pontificate for Fundamentalism, I'll be thankful he's finally on the way *out.*

"Cynics are right to note that much of this humility is hypocritical, but that doesn't make it useless. False humility is the forced tribute that hidden pride must pay to virtue. It may not do the hypocrite any moral good, but it benefits the rest of us. The hypocrite's sin is hidden, and we do not know his virtue to be false, so can learn from it!"

False humility *is* a form of pride, there, guy.

As for hypocrites and panderers in power, what anyone a little quicker on the uptake 'learns' from false humility is that some people apparently do OK for themselves faking it in certain quarters.

Then you have to make a decision whether you want to be like that, I guess.

One thing's sure about the outgoing President, though, ...He's no Abraham Lincoln.

Jamestown was the first permenant English settlemnet in the New World, in Virginia, not in Massacusetts, in 1607, which was 13 years before the Pilgrims came to America.

And the first Thanksgiving took place at Berkley Plantation in Virginia, in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Six Hundred and Nineteen, which is 2 years earlier than the first Thanksgiving celebrateed in Plymouth in 1621.

Queen Elizabeth came to Virginia last year to commenerate the 400th anniversary of Jamestown, but Plymouth will not have its 400th birthday until the year 2020.

You West-Coasters are just so out of touch with Eastern things and true American History, as it REALLY happened.

Sounds good.

No purpose; no point; platitudes; cliches; irrelevant.