True Islam has been Distorted

Freedom of religion is a basic right. No man can force another into God's kingdom. Freedom for women is also a right. Every person is responsible for his soul . Religious police violate the rights of people. Why do you want to put your eternal life at risk. Prisoners should be given their rights .

There is so much hate on this board. It seems to me that people like Pablo, Frank Collins

I think it all boils down to education. If you ask a non-Muslim who hates Muslims about Islam, you may get a distorted view. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of distorted views here. Is Islam violent? What does that mean? The religion iteslf teaches peace and tolerance. How do I know? I've been Muslim for over 23 years and not once was I ever taught to cut a non-believers head off or whatever other foolishness is being spread here. If a certain group of Christians decides to dress up in white hoods, ride around burning crosses, TERRORIZING, and lynching people, do we say ALL CHRISTIANS ARE TERRORISTS? Or if some lunatic plants a bomb in Oklahoma City. The point is you can't condemn a whole people for the acts of some.

Is Islam violent? Absolutely not! The world is violent. Islam just happens to exist in the world. The truth is war is inevitable. Point out a 10 year point in world history where there was no war. You can't. Not in all this time has that happened. So since war is inevitable, isn't it better to have some moral principles about how to go to war?

Yes, there were wars during the time of Muhammad, but to say Islam "spread by the sword" is disgustingly incorrect. THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN ISLAM. And how can there be? How can you force someone to believe something? The very root of the idea makes no sense.

Here's a brief history lesson for you on the life of Muhammad for those who would like to be informed and not mis-informed. He was born in Arabia 1400 years ago. Both his parents died while he was in infancy and he was raised by his grandfather and uncles. He lived in a time known as "The Ignorance." The people around him worshipped idols and burried their daughters alive out of shame. Muhammad was a noble man, well respected and extremely trustworthy, far before ever receiving any type of revalation. He would retreat to a secluded cave to meditate. It was there where he received revalation at age 40. He asked the people, "If I told you there was a large army on the other side of that mountain waiting to attack us, would you believe me?" They all said yes, as I stated before Muhammad was the most trusted person in all of Mecca. Then he asked them, "What if I told you I am a prophet of God? Would you believe me then?" Naturally they rejected his claim.

But as time grew, so did Muhammad's following. Islam grew to the point that it became a problem. The Kabaa was home to over 360 idols at the time. Every year, people would come from all over Arabia to perform various sacrifices, etc. This was BIG business for the Meccans. So you can see why Muhammad's claim that there is only one GOd was be so problematic. It got to the point where Muslims were being attacked (much like today). People spoke badly about the religion even though they were ignorant to its most basic principles. Eventually, many Muslims were forced to leave Mecca.

Now here's where it gets interesting. For anyone (even Muslims) who claims Muslims hate all Christians and Jews: Muhammad sent his companions to Abyssinia (present day Ethiopia), one of the oldest Christian nations. He sent them there because he said they had a RIGHTEOUS KING and that know man would be wronged in his land. The Meccans persued them but the King refused to let the Muslims be taken by them after he learned of their religion. He said that what Jesus taught and what Muhammad teaches are like TWO RAYS FROM THE SAME LAMP.

Not to get sidetracked but this is the relationship between Muslims and Christians. The Qur'an says "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." -2:62

Back to the history lesson. Muhammad was next banished from Mecca. It seemed all the Muslims had been wiped out and Islam had failed. But then, everything changed. The neighboring city of Medina took Muhammad in and excepted his message. They were fortold that Muhamma was indeed the messenger of God by THE JEWS IN THEIR CITY!

"Those to whom We have given the Book know him (the Messenger) just like they know their own sons" Qur'an, 6:20

And then came the wars. To "spread the faith?" NO! How about self defense. The Meccans raided and stole everything of value from the Muslims that was left in Mecca. It was only after this, and after receiving revalation (they would not fight until Muhammad was given instruction to do so), that they fought. They had strict rules though. You may not kill women, children, non-combatants, the elderly. They weren't even allowed to cut down trees. So yes the Qur'an talks about fighting, but every verse that talks about fighting is followed by something like "it's better to forgive or show mercy."

An example of this is after the second war in Islam, the battle of Uhud, one of Muhammad's companions, and uncle Hamza was killed and his body was grusomely mutilatated. When the Angel Gabriel asked Muhammad if he wanted the angels to crush these people, Muhammad declined, perchance they become Muslim. So there was no barbaric spilling of blood. That is 100% FALSE! In fact, when the Muslims finally returned to Mecca during their final conquest, their was NO BLOOD SHED! They literally walked through the city gates and the city was handed to them.

What else, the taxes, etc. Well doesn't that make sense? I live in America (along with about 10 million other Muslims, by the way). As a result I pay taxes, don't you? And don't we all have to follow the laws of the land. THat's basically what happened. Non-Muslims paid a tax (Muslims pay a tax too, it just goes to the poor), and had to adhere to the laws of the land.

Muhammad never claimed to bring a new world religion. He simply brought the next step. Look at your own life. Did you start out just the way you are? Or was it a process "Was he not a drop of sperm emitted?" Qur'an 75:37.

So religion came down in phases as well. Muhammad taught nothing but what EVERY OTHER PROPHET TAUGHT. The same message as Adam, Noah, Solomon, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the list goes on. THey all taught the same thing! THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!!!!

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, the first commandment is hear, oh Israel, the Lord OUR God, is One Lord."

So it seems to me that the biggest problem with Islam is that it is for Human Beings. Human Beings are the problem. Imagine if Timothy McVeigh was Muslim. Would that make it any worse of an act of terrorism? Of course not. The only hate going on here is by the non-Muslims.

So why are Muslims chastised? Yes there are some bad apples who do horrific things "in the name of Islam" but there are people from every group who do things that don't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the whole group. Are ALL Germans Nazis? Are ALL white anglo-saxon protestants in the KKK? I mean is the whole Atlanta Falcon football team just a big front for a scandalous Dog-fighting ring??? The best thing for each and every one of us is to educate ourselves. Ask God for guidance and He will guide you. Religion is nothing but a vehicle to spirituality. We all need to do whatever it is we need to do to draw closer to God. Religion is a set of rules that, if followed, can put us in God's favor. Tolerance is one of those laws. Out of the 7 BILLION MUSLIMS in the world, what percentage of them are "terrorists?" And what is called Islamic terrorism is more POLITICAL WARFARE than anything. After all, its America who has troops in Iraq and so many other places right now, not the other way around.

*One more point to make. Muslims and Christians do worship the same God. He is called Allah by Muslims as that is the Arabic word for God (illah means god, Al-illah, or Allah means "the (definitive) God"). The christians in the Middle East call God "Allah" because they speak Arabic. Just like in Spain they say Dios, not God. Thank you all for reading my post and I pray that you took something meaningful from it. God bless.

As Salaamu Alaikum (Peace be unto you)

well, it seems this post is pretty dead, and its a shame to leave it at such an ugly note-

i do hope people look at that link-

i dont want to hog the blog, as its rather lengthy

Islam denounces violence. Is that why your prophet killed and rape across Arabia?

http://www.islamic-study.org/Islam%20Denounces%20Violence.htm

if you anonymous haters think you are going to drive away the reasonable with your nonsense anecdotes, you have another thing coming-

Norwegian-Somalian Kadra, who became famous in Norway for exposing imam support of female circumcision, was beaten unconscious on Thursday.
Kadra was attacked and beaten senseless by seven or eight persons of Somali origin, newspaper VG reports.
"I was terrified. While I lay on the pavement they kicked me and screamed that I had trampled on the Koran. Several shouted Allah-o-akbar (God is great) and also recited from the Koran," Kadra told VG.
Kadra linked the attack to recent remarks in VG where she said that the Koran's views on women needed to be reinterpreted.
Kadra said that the gang of Somali men attacked her around 3 a.m. in downtown Oslo on Thursday. A medical examination found that she had several broken ribs, NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting) reports. Kadra filed charges and was due to speak with police on Friday.
The Islamic Council Norway (IRN) condemned the attack on Kadra and urged that she pursue the matter with police.
"Behavior where one goes to physical attack on someone you disagree with violates Islamic teaching and the prophet Muhammad's sunnah (lifestyle). We strongly object to such behavior," the IRN said in a press release.
Kadra's role in a 2000 hidden camera TV documentary revealing the positive attitude of Muslim leaders to female circumcision had a massive impact on Norway, and sparked new legislation.

As the French people went to the polls to select a president, jihadi members of an al-Qaeda online forum exchanged messages discussing their aspiration to "reinvade France (and convert it into) an Islamic country." The internet discussion appeared as Spanish security forces warned that both Spain and France were targets of al-Qaeda terror plots.

A post that appeared on the al-Firdaws jihadi forum, submitted by a user named Faisal al-Baghdadi, contained a lengthy historical account of "the second stop of the Islamic conquest of Europe, France, after Andalusia, Spain."
The post took a nostalgic look at the battle of Tours in 732, in which Muslim forces, commanded by Rahman al-Ghafiqi, who invaded a portion of France, were repelled by the Frankish general Charles Martel ("the hammer"), and forced to retreat. The battle stemmed the medieval Islamic conquest of Europe.

"The Islamic army was left with a large number of martyrs, especially the great shahid (martyr) Abdul Rahman a-Ghafiqi… this battle is mentioned in history, and is known at the battle of Tours," the post explained.

"We ask that Allah sends us a genuine Rahman al-Ghafiqi, to finish what he started in Europe, and conquer the Vatican as promised in our beautiful Islamic verses," the post concluded.

"Allah bless the writer and carrier of the message which recalls the days of glory and honor of Islam," another user responded.

Continuation of the cleansing of the Koran.

"6. To believe that Allah Most High has knowledge of everything from before-hand and that only that which He sanctions or wishes will occur."

This is invalidated by the natural/inherent/God-given gifts/attributes of the human race i.e. Free Will and Future.

As per the theologian Edward Schillebeeckx,
Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

We must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman
doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God/Allah the great scapegoat of history.”

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human
activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the
historical future is not known even to God/Allah; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

"7. To believe that Resurrection will definitely occur."

The spiritual resurrection occurs at each death. There will be no physical resurrection from common sense considerations i.e. Heaven is a spirit state i.e. no bodies to include those of Jesus, Mary, Moses etc. can reside there.

"8. To believe in the existence of Heaven."

Acceptable but it exists only as a spirit state.

"9. To believe in the existence of Hell."

Maybe, maybe not. Some say if one dies is significant sin, that person’s soul will simply no longer exist since God/Allah does not tolerate imperfection in the Kingdom.

"10. To have love for Allah Most High."

Of course, just like there is love of all creatures, spiritual and living. Again there has to be an all-inclusive statement for Allah, i..e. aka God, Yahweh, Mother Nature, Jehovah, etc.

Victoria,

Regarding your post above, I do know what you mean about generosity when I consider my own experience.

Had it not been for the friends I made, I would have spent some very sad Christmases alone and far from home.

The Peruvians and Columbians, in particular, celebrated on Christmas Eve (Noche Buena).

There was this liquor called Aguar De Diente, and I got indirectly "dared" (sucked into the overwhelming machismo of the party) to keep up. They knew I wouldn't be able to because this stuff was like rocket fuel! The women were trying to warn me and the men were passing it around...relentlessly.

The next morning the men all got up and were eating, and I felt like I'd been struck by lightning. But they fed me, had me help them with a pinata for the children and fully included me...right down to teasing me about my hangover.

I love those people!

Ask away Ghostbuster. I come here for conversation.

Thanks Norrie, Russell, Victoria, for the support.

One of the other points I wanted to make was that, no matter how miserable I was during the four years I spent in Orlando, I learned SO MUCH I would never have know otherwise. I now know fully what it means to broaden one's horizons. There is value in learning ANYTHING, whether you know the value at the time or not!

It took me a while to figure out how these people could seem so satisfied with what seemed so little to me. Then when I got to know them, I realized that what I saw as a little, was more than they had ever had before. Talk about shaking up a person's perspective!

Interesting insights Danny B. The only post I've read on these boards so far today.

I won't ask you a bunch of questions you have probably already answered in previous posts.

Thanks for sharing.

Danny B. has figured it out.

Learn from experience. Learn from people. Go out and see the world, enjoy life, and learn who you are through others. For most of the posters here, I'd recommend you get out of your holes and walk more than a few miles from your state and or country. You might learn more.

Danny B.,

One of the things I admire about you is how open you are to life and people and experience.

If you do leave these threads, they'll be the poorer for your absence.

here is what i came to post-

i would like to make note that i just finished my afternoon prayer- so that is my state of mind in this composition-

also this happens 5 times a day, so at least 5 times a day i have this reasonable attitude(however i am inclined to believe the reason overlaps from prayer to prayer)

Muslims comprise the most diverse population of any grouping on the planet, yet people still persist in believing fox news perceptions-

id say the proof is in the pudding-

witness the very apparent examples on these boards-

where do you see angry and abusive muslims here?

do you see muslims name calling and castigating others?
acting impolitely, judging others, slandering others?

id say there is a disproportionate amount of reasonable response to overt aggression here-

and yet it doesnt strike anyone as indicative of islamic manners and behavior?

while i see a preponderance of verbal violence against muslims-

is this verbal violence and abuse answered back in reciprocal manner?

there are even those who mislead others by using arabic names, and then propagating outright hatred and vitriol-

has anyone seen a corollary malice in return?

or even anger?

if islam is filled with out of control emotional and anger filled adherents, why dont we see any evidence of it here?

people respond with outright irrational emotions controlling their every word- but the muslims remain reasoned.

it is a phenomenon that certainly deserves mention and attention.

peace all

even though im just a muslim, i lived and worked for 2 years with migrant farmworkers in northern california-
i lived in the same shanties- (one year in a tent outside) and worked the same 14 hour shifts in the 115 degree factory line ( i actually saw women fainting and falling on a regular basis)

my suitcase that i brought with me contained nothing but books-art books and classics-
and i spent all my off time teaching native americans and mexicans english (the education of the native american average was second grade)

there are many associated tales- but ll tell one-
there was almost a riot once in church when i suggested that jesus was jewish-
and when i finally left to go to canda, they took me to their church and re-outfitted me in the nicest clothing for the cold-

i lived in chicago and taught english as a second language to mexicans (whose neighborhood i lived in) and iraqis.

you really embody the literal meaning of catholic(which means universal)

i have found this universalism in islam.

peace

Danny B. :

You are very good man, don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

I came today to cancel my account, but there seems to be no clear way to do that.

Norrie,

Thanks for the kind words! Whether we agree or disagree, I always respect your contribution. I would be a liar if I allowed my frustration with extremist posters to let me forget that I have, in fact, learned many things in these forums.

To no one in particular,

Just something to share that may seem off-topic, but in regard to some of the attitudes I encouter here, it really is on the subject of these threads.

I agreed to transfer to Orlando, FL with my company, and agreed to an 18 month to two year commitment before I would be allowed to transfer back. Of course, the one catch is that they can keep you longer "based on business needs". I was there for four years total.

By the end of the first year I was miserable. I hated the position, I hated the city, I hated being so far from home (I am from Detroit).

I wanted to be ready to transfer back at a moment's notice. I looked for an a apartment with a month-to-month lease. This is nearly imopssible in Orlando. Being such a transient city, landlords want at least a six-month assurance that you will stay. I finally found a month-to-month rental in this God-awful building near downtown. It just brought my already bad depressive state even lower.

The majority of the neighbors were immigrants from South and Central America, Mexico, Cuba, etc..

As time went on, I began to learn Spanish from them. A lot of Spanish! I am now nearly fluent (or at least proficient enough to be fully conversational, watch Spanish TV and movies, etc..).

I knew that some of them were here illegally, though they never directly said so. Well, one was very direct about it, but was going back already when he said so.

These people were some of the most neighborly people I have ever met. They were hard working (yes, all of them worked! Even when the wife stayed home, she baby-sat, took in laundry, sold Jafra).

I earned enough to live in three (literally) of those apartments, which they did not know, but they were always bringing me food because I was man who lived alone. These people had so little, risked everything to be here and worried that I couldn't feed myself because I was single. I was floored.

One neighbor used to come in the evenings, after working 12 hours in a restaurant kitchen at 5.00 an hour (less than minimum wage, mind you), and ask if I would take him to the store for a bottle of tequila. He would send all the money he earned home to his family, but his one indulgence for himself was a bottle of Curevo. Then he would want to share it with me and refuse to let me either pay for it myself or even pitch in. He would tell me that my company was enough.

I tried to teach them English, and they all wanted to learn. The unfortunate thing for the wives was that the men all went to work with the car, and the wives were stuck at home with the children and no transportation. Everybody wanted to learn English, understood it was crucial for earning more money, but how does one do it while stuck at home and little opportunity to practice? I could not personally conduct the immersion classes, of course, which is how I ended up learning the Spanish.

My whole point here is this:

I follow the news, I know what the attitudes in this country are toward immigrants in general, and illegal one in particular. But I also KNOW THE IMMIGRANTS...very well, and many of them. When I compare what I know and have observed with what I read and see on TV, the discrepancies between the two, the ignorance displayed by our leaders and fellow citizens just astounds me!

So, when I am in these threads, though I am no expert on the subject of Islam, I recognize blatant ignorance when it is in front of me. I know for a fact that he who shouts the loudest against something either knows nothing, or is attempting to hide their hypocracy. I will not remove the humanity from others to make it easier for me to condemn them. If I cannot look into the eyes of an individual and say it, how can I apply it to a whole group. And even if one has the sheer nerve to say some of the things posted here while looking a Muslim in the eye doesn't automatically make it right either.

I was accused of being pathological in another thread, by Deb Chatterjee, because I said my acknowledged ignorance on the subject of Islam would not allow me to agree with her insistance that it was just plain evil.

Well, I think that everyone deserves to be heard equally. When these people overtake the conversation, as if louder and longer guarantees accuracy of their "opinion/argument", they are mistaken.

Muslims are people too, and like all people, I BELIEVE that EVERYONE deserves the benefit of the doubt and to be heard before opinions are fully and unchangably formed against them.

If I meet a Muslim on American soil, I am not suspicious of their presence here. If I meet people, I meet people. I would give the benefit of the doubt to anyone, until they give me reason not to.

So when a Muslim tells me that Islam is a religion of peace, and democracy, I am especially interested in hearing what they have to say because it is a new take for me. What all you ranters are in here screaming about the evils of Islam, you can't even really take credit for original thinking. None of it is original, I've heard all that well before you all shouted it incessantly, on and on and on and on and on in here. Really, it is pitiable.

Free speech in this country was intended to allow for political debate without fear of retribution. Shouting that you have free speech in order to defend your own drowning-out of the speech of those who attempt to debate you is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.

Actually being educated and intelligent would make you incapable of holding unwavering opinions that allow generalizations of whole races, creeds, faiths, and ethnic groups.

Sorry to be long winded and off-topic, but as opposed to being offended or outraged, I choose to pity those of you who deserve it, thank those of you who deserve it, and maybe pass on any of the tiniest bit of wisdom I have gained here on Earth.

Is it Ahmed Hussin or Qasim? Someone has been busy under multiple names to increase the number of venters against Muslims here and using Muslim names too.

Danny B.,

It's been quite a while since both you and I contributed to the same thread. Based on those conversations, and your contributions to this thread, I have to agree with Mavaddat when he writes:

"Danny, you are a quintessentially reasonable man. I wish more of us were so willing to learn as you."

It's none of my business of course, but I wonder/worry if you may not be too reasonable for these threads and for the world at large. I hope not.

I know you can take care of yourself, but let me commend to you the last stanza of Robinson Jeffers' poem, "Shine, Perishing Republic":

"And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant, insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught — they say — God, when he walked on earth."

Take care.

Danny B,
I don't know about you but calling a spade a spade is not hypocrisy. Please check out a dictionary on this issue.

Let me ask you a question: would you collaborate with Nazis because you want to be 'tolerant' and 'Christian'?

If no, then why do you make an exception for Islam?

As for 'true knowledge of Islam' if you have no knowledge of it yourself, as you say, then how do you know what is 'true knowledge of Islam' or not?

In other words, how can you make such an accusation when you have absolutely no basis for to make such accusations?

Qasim

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

Regarding your post above, I 'd hate to have your nerve in my tooth.

As a Christian, who believes in the "Golden Rule", I would not warmly receive those of another faith re-writing the Bible for me.

Really!

To no one specific (but you know who you are),

As I mentioned in another thread, this whole question at hand is a farce! It has been answered for weeks every time a Muslim speaks in here.

I have had it, and am recognizing my right to exclude myself from these ridiculous anti-Muslim commiserations parading as "discussions". i'll just look into other discussion groups that are more responsible and intellectually inclined.

To all of you, like Pamela*, who managed to get a pro-Muslim word in edgewise, I thank you. I now have a direction to follow in searching for balance and making up my own mind about Islam as I learn something of it. Lord knows, these ranters made sure I don't agree with them on principal.

*(I hate to exclude anyone by forgetting names, which is why I am not thanking you all directly)

I have found it to be very un-Christian around here, and all those arguing that Christians can't be terrorists because Christ never advocated it...pay attention to your own hypocritical arguments! Every time I read that one it is part and parcel of a blatant JUDGEMENT! What I see taking over the discussions in these threads is anything BUT what Christ taught.

So before you accuse me AGAIN of being un-Christian simply for wanting to know why self-described peacful Muslims are inspired by Islam...think hard about what you are actually saying. WWJD? Huh?

To all...peace!

Danny B.

Ok, let start cleansing/updating the Koran:

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain natural events,contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via an "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

Thanks Mavaddat.

Yours was one of the names that escaped me when I referred to posters like Victoria. Sorry about the "slight".

Danny,

You are a quintessentially reasonable man. I wish more of us were so willing to learn as you.

Ahmed Hussein,

In giving the benefit of the doubt, yet again, perhaps I just don't fully understand you.

However, upon re-reading your post, when you say,

"Best of luck, and if you need any help with any of the verses, you only have to ask",

I can now see from the subsequent statement,

"There are certain things that one must not tolerate and totalitarian ideologies like Islam is one such example",

that yours is not the kind of help I would need.

Your opinion has been OVERWHELMINGLY represented in these threads. While I do not mean you specifically, these anti-Islam opinions have overwhelmed the discussions to the nearly complete exclusion of the opposite position.

I have taken plenty of abuse alone just trying to carry on a discussion with those people trying to present the other side of the debate. I have been told that I am pathological and an advocate of pedophilia for refusing to join the rest in jumping to conclusions, and offering to hear both sides because of my lack of knowledge on the subject. So imagine how a Muslim hoping to discuss how Islam inspires them must feel in these forums.

For anyone claiming to be Christian to perpetuate this unfriendly climate, and the denouncing of Islam as "evil" in such a mean way is hypocracy. This is not at all in keeping with Christ's message of peace and love for one's neighbor. As a Christian, it offends me.

I appreciate the articles from the Professor, and Pamela Taylor, as well as insight from posters like Victoria. I am really bored with sifting through hateful "Christian" postings to find them. It is to the point where I won't be looking here for any actual information any more.

Ahmed Hussein,

With all due respect, I believe that you misunderstand my post.

I am saying exactly what you are saying. I have expressed absolutely NO OPINION about Islam. I am denouncing those who do so without true knowledge of it, and am giving the benefit of the doubt to ANY Muslim who denies their accusations.

My complaint is that those non-Muslims shouting down everyone else with lengthy rants about the "evils" of Islam are preventing those of us who want to learn about Islam in these forums from doing so more easily.

Danny B,
Please return to give us your opinion about Islam after you've read the Quran, and not before. It does mean that you're speaking from a position of zero information and that is not a good position to argue from.

Best of luck, and if you need any help with any of the verses, you only have to ask.

Really, you do assume too much about Islam, something you have self-acknowledged you know very little or nothing about.

Furthermore, you assume you know critics like me just from our denunciation of something we know to be 'negative'. That's what they said about Churchill too when he railed against the evils of Nazism. Nobody listened to him then but he ended up being proven right. I'm not sure one is doing anybody a service when one tolerates evil just for the sake of being tolerant. There are certain things that one must not tolerate and totalitarian ideologies like Islam is one such example.

Ahmed Hussain

Anonymous:

"Do you think if the Muslims were behind the Holocaust, God forbid, the born Christians would give them the benefit of the doubt..."

As a Christian myself, I have tried on these threads to give Islam the benefit of the doubt, and to learn more about it before forming such strong opinions, as many of the posters here.

Regarding your comment above, many "Christians" on these threads won't give Muslims the benefit of the doubt KNOWING they were not behind the Holocaust!

In many cases, I feel that those "Christians" denouncing Islam the loudest in these threads are making up their minds first and seeking quotes (removed from larger contexts) from the Koran to support their bias after the fact. When I see this, I have an idea of who we are hearing from because I am familiar with the same abuses of Christian scripture. The more they rant and the louder they scream about the evils if Islam, the more they say about themselves.

Again, I am a Christian myself, so I know that sound bites, tee-shirt slogans, and bumper sticker sized pieces of the Bible are not valuable, in and of themselves. Christianity is much larger than that. So too, I have to assume about the Koran.

Until I have learned to read the Koran as a Muslim does, or taken the time to view Islam throught the eyes of a Muslim, I will maintain the Christian position of loving (or at least trying with all my might) my neighbor first.

If Muslims weren't threatened with getting their arms and legs cut off or killed for not following the Quran, how many of them would follow the good rules in it? Do what you like, just don't be stupid enough to get caught, seems to be the motto. If fear of getting killed or maimed in this life is the reason for virtue, not much virtue worth talking about, is there?

Really? You can bribe the devil to get into hell with just a few beers? Talk about cheap admission! What kind of beers do they have to be? Does it have to be a lager, or will a pilsner do?

If being against gambling, alcohol and pornography is oppressive, so be it. Knock yourself out gambling, boozing and wathcing porn. No one is stopping you. Then come back and tell me how it feels for your, your family and friends.

It feels great, frankly. There's nothing like a bit of the cards, a few beers and a lap dance. You should try it some day. Don't knock something you know nothing about.

Seriously - it's called freedom of choice. So long as people don't hurt others what's it to you? Why the puritannical mindset?

Oh, I forgot polygamy is moral. Wife beating is moral. Child marriages is moral. But a few beers will get you into hell. Yeah, sure.

Qasim

I think Jihadist (a she) and beginning to understand her style, was being facile on the Qur'an and Hadiths being memorised by Muslims. There are thousands of Hadiths and quite impossible for anyone to memorise them, even Islamic scholars. I think Jihadist said before somewhere she studied Shariah law after studying economics and international law in college.

You may not be a literalist but millions of your fellow Muslims are and have been throughout the 14 centuries.

Oh, I very much doubt you have memorized the hadiths. The Quran, yes - that repetitive piece of work, but certainly not the hadiths. Nobody memorizes the hadiths as a rule - it's not required in Islam in any shape or form.

However, having said that, how do you explain to us Americans the rather unsavory character of your prophet? Religion of peace indeed.

Qasim

Mavaddat

Lighten up. Concerned and I have been engaging in this sort of silly arguments for weeks now. And we both did not die.

I leave you and others to make considered arguments and I to go down the road of silly Muslim versions to take care of silly non-Muslim versions.

As for confidence in arguments, well, I am having fun doing as take of "certainties" to counter "certainties" so others will see the silliness of absolute certainty.

To Concerned and Jihadist,

I find it interesting that you both feel it is necessary to degrade the other and call him a propagandist when it is clear to me that you are both making reasonable points.

You could choose to discuss this matter academically in a friendly tone, but for some reason you have descended to a very childish place. I'm sorry to say this, but Bill O' Reilly would be proud of you both.

The fact that you both commit ad hominem fallacy speaks volumes to me about the confidence that you have (or lack, rather) in your own arguments.

Hey Concerned,

You don't have to think of them as hallucinations. You can call them "revelation" and then they become very valuable. It's all about what spin you give it.

Jihadist,

You made the statement that there was no Muslim money being used to buy weapons but of course there is as you know quite well. Previously you noted that there were no contemporary Muslim states making war with non-Muslim states. Of course you know that is incorrect but failed to admit to your misquote. More propaganda??

And of course, the American taxpayers pay for our weapons systems. That is a given. We don't go around spreading propaganda that someone else is purchasing said systems. And you are fortunate we have these weapon systems. In the hands of lunatics like bin Laden and the leaders of Iran, the globe would be toasted in Islamic stupidity.

And you still cannot come to grips with the problems with Islam's foundation i.e. the hallucinations of one Mohammed who thought he talked to God via "Hittite pretty wingy thingies". These hallucinations resulted in the violent Islam we know today and have witnessed since the plundering and looting agenda was first articulated. Why do you have a problem addressing this critical issue?? Something else you learned in the Islamic propaganda courses?

To all posters in On Faith threads here, forgive me for what I am about to engage in. And I am not above getting down to anyone's level.

Qasim Omar

I don't have to read the Suras and Hadiths. Remember, we Muslims memorize them remember?:)

So very interesting that you should demand that I read the Qur'an and Hadiths as a literalist, as an inerrantist. You want us Muslims to remain that, and then accuse of of being fundamentalist, bigots, fanatics, extremists? Make up your mind, for heaven's sake.

If being against gambling, alcohol and pornography is oppressive, so be it. Knock yourself out gambling, boozing and wathcing porn. No one is stopping you. Then come back and tell me how it feels for your, your family and friends.

Concerned

Let it up. Who is financing Israeli nuclear arsenal? Who is helping India in its nuke programme? Who is paying for US nuclear arsenal? American taxpayers - including you. To what end? And why is Pakistan and Iran having a nuclear programme? And why can't them have one? With the kind of neighbours they have and the threat they are under? Why is it all right for non-Muslim states to have nuclear programme? Oh wait, they are rational and reasonable beings.

And Concerned,

Only a propogandist would accuse someone of being a propogandist. Who is paying you eh?

well- pablo i called you no name-

but - fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me-

as you professed intentions of love for my soul before and it quickly degenrated into calling my prophet the antichrist-

but it wasnt personal pablo-
i started out talking to you, but went onto people in general-

so sorry bout that- i can see how you would think i was still talking to you-

im not one of those sneaky people that says "people' when i mean someone in particular.

i call a spade a spade- if i mean you, ill say it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" I will only say I care for your soul. I care for the souls of those who have been taken captive by a deception. My hope is to expose what is false so that precious people like you will embrace the truth."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

now while i consider it nie that you consider my soul precious, i think its pretty judgemental and out of line to make a judgement on my soul being captivated by deception- so when i get to stuff like that- i definitely dont read it.

now that ive read it-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"
“And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:10-12).
Pablo"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is downright a rotten thing to say dude-

so- im glad i ignored it- i caught the tone of an insult coming and i never read those-

since i have never once insulted you or your religion- if you dont show that respect in a reciprocal manner- i will probably always skip over them-

i dont tolerate denigrations

do it positvely and ill read everything

so again- it was addressed in general to people here-

it wasnt necessarily you pablo

Jihadist,

And Iran and Pakistan's armed forces and nuclear programs are being financed by non-Muslim money? And bin Laden's (death be upon him) money for weapons is non-Muslim?

Do you really work for? Considering all the Muslim "wishy-wash" you write, it appears to be the propaganda office of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Jihadist,
Your Islamic principles is oppressive to others. Read the Quran - especially surah 9. Read the biography of Muhammad. Read his instructions to convert others by the sword in the saheeh hadiths like this one:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Wtf? Your prophet has been ordered by your war-mongering god to fight against the people (i.e. non-Muslims like me) until we testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah etc.?

Do you expect Americans like me to lie down and take this sort of garbage?

Do you?

Well, if you do you're very much mistaken, dearie.

Qasim Omar

....and what is the excuse of non-Muslims for waging wars and committing human rights abuses?

What is the moral or ethical basis for that?

Why yes, I do have a loyalty to my faith. Let me see how I go about it. Ahh, applying Islamic principles in Islamic banking and financial instruments. No investment in arms, alcohol, drugs, gambling, pornography. Hope to reduce all those unnecessary things. May there be reduced number of weapons, gambling establishments, drug abuse, pornography and such wasting human habits. It is still there and burgeoning, it is not by Muslims' money and investment. But hey, I'm all for Cirque de Soleil and Tina Turner and Mozart and Duchamps and Mary Wollnstonecraft etc.

Makes me wonder sometimes reading these threads if some are indeed the inheritors of western civilization that give birth to Shakespeare, Beethoven and Van Goth.

If you read to the bottom of my post you will see my name. That shows me your do not read to the bottom.

Pablo

how can i call anonymous names?

you havent even given yourself a name!

what names?

that is kind of illogical- do you have a guilty conscience that you think i was calling the nameless names?

how can i call anonymous names?

you havent even given yourself a name?

what names?

that is kind of crazty- do you have a guilty conscience that you think i was calling the nameless names?

Dear Victoria,

You may call me names if you wish and I will only say I care for your soul. I care for the souls of those who have been taken captive by a deception. My hope is to expose what is false so that precious people like you will embrace the truth. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life no man comes to the Father except by me" (John 14:6).

Why is Jesus rejected as the Son of God in the Islamic world? If I preached that He is the Son of God in truly Muslim countries I would do so at the risk of my life, why? That is a simple question. Are the multitudes all misled in the Muslim world? Are American Muslims like you right and the consensus in the Muslim world wrong? I pray that you will analyze what you believe in the light of what Jesus said and did. If you do you will see that you believe a lie. If you want to call me a "bigot" because I want you to see the deception that is Islam so be it. You will not be able to say that Pablo did not try to warn you on judgment day. I only pray that you will see Jesus as your LORD so you will not have to face Him as your judge. Jesus said:

“And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:10-12).
Pablo

thats completely not true pablo.

why is it ok to make sweeping genralizations and negatively bigoted remarks about muslims without any
discord expressed?

remove the plank pablo-

what is it that compels people to spend their time denouncing and expressing prejudice against another?

are these the same people who are claiming to be proponent of equality for humans?

there is no edification here,just preaching to a choir of bias.

what gets into someones heart, when they see posts with others who have nothing else to contribute but their fear and paranoia?

stop strengthening your phobias, come to reason.

step back and examine what you are saying.

Qasim Omar,

"You have fallen for the Muslim lies that always blame the victims."

You are so right we see them blaming everyone but themselves today.

Pablo

Armand777

"NO ONE has the right to force, coerce, or intimidate anyone into “converting”, or legislate religious “law”. "

Amen.

Hajiyeh Esmaelvand.

Sorry the last para should have read:

However, the vast majority of the early Communists, and the ones with the power, were not Jews. In fact, the Soviet Communist Party purged itself of Jews pretty early on.

Anonymous,
Spare us your anti-semitic rants. If Jewishness and Communism go together how come Israel is not Communist in any shape or form?

Please also spare us the lie that the early Communists were Jews - very few of them were and those who were were Commies because they were 'intellectuals'. It was fashionable for 'left wing intellectuals' to love Communism. It still is.

There was also a reason why some of the early Soviet Communists were Jews - it was as a result of the Tsar's pogroms.

However, the vast majority of the early Communists, and the ones with the power, were not Communists. In fact, the Soviet Communist Party purged itself of Jews pretty early on.

Religious extremism is rampant today. There is no apology possible for the horrors, atrocities, murder, lying, brutality, butchery, cheating and control-mongering committed in the “name of God”, by those who have the alleged “only true” religion, and who have demonstrated the abject misery and stultifying bondage that is existence under their control. Make no bones about it, these individuals want nothing less than total control of Planet Earth, no matter what they say.

Sites monitoring this type of activity:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

If a deity were going to “reveal” the “only true” religion via “angels”, it should have been very easy for said alleged deity to send the same “angel” to “reveal” the same verbage to everyone on the Planet, in their own languages. I.E. they all would have had the same books. Both the Bible, including the OT myths, and the Qur’an contain self-contradiction, error and incongruity. Such texts obviously can not be the ”word” of a deity, and thus are no valid basis for “authority”.

Every Holy Book has verses which pertain to Esoteric Principles. Those Principles are the same as they always have been, and were extant for centuries before Christianity and Islam came on the scene. The rabid fundie (whose faith is in his “only true” dogma) is of course generally totally ignorant when it comes to Esoteric Principles, but, as history and shown us, ignorance and the brain-washing of the sheeple/votaries go hand-in-hand.

Religion is invented by men, and is merely an external framework in which Universal Spirituality (an Internal Process) is supposed to Operate. Religion is comprised of tradition, ritual, observances and…. dogma. Spirituality, the Devotion to the Divine Within, should be the same for everyone, regardless of religion. In actuality, True Spirituality Transcends religion.

The Divine Principles of Love, Compassion, etc. are Keys to Existence itself, and to the Realization of each individual’s own Divinity.

The abysmal bondage of religionism and its guilt/shame/control-mongering prelates (you must practice my “only true” sectarian dogma in exactly my way) separates (e.g. “we don’t associate with them, because their dogma is different”, etc.) and produces much misery, as history had demonstrated. True Spirituality Unites.

People need to throw off the bondage of religionism, with its home-made “commandments” (wear this, do this, don’t do that, etc.), exclusionist dogmatic BS (e.g. the “infidels” are “going to hell”) and other abject nonsense, and focus on Spirituality and being in Vibratory Sympathy with TheAllThatIsConveyed, no matter what cultural Names those who believe in a Universal Higher Power use.

Every person has the right to practice whatever religion they want to in peace, or to practice no religion at all, if that is what they choose to do. NO ONE has the right to force, coerce, or intimidate anyone into “converting”, or legislate religious “law”. NO RELIGION belongs in any government, which must be completely secular. Additionally, NO ONE has the right to demand special treatment or consideration because of religious beliefs. These who would seek to foist their dogmatic religionist fabrications on the entire populace are the common enemies of Liberty and Free men everywhere.

Armand777

Professor John Esposito,
How can you expect anyone to believe it is a defensive war to fight and kill people simply for that fact they disbelieve Islam and won't pay Zakat?

Isn't 9:5 then the CONVERT OR DIE verse?

Why should anyone be forced to submit to Islam and pay Zakat? or die?

Is that peaceful to you? Is that defensive to you?

Please explain this to me so I can understand your apologetics. Thank you very much.

Qasim Omar

Commenting Muslims and Muslim sympathizers,
please answer Yes to the following questions to show your specific condemnation of Islamic terrorist activities that you exhaustively generalized in your commentaries.

Do you condemn the 24/7 blood bath of the Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq?

Do you believe American troops are in Iraq to help quell this civil war?

Do you believe that American troops would leave Iraq if the civil war ceased?

Do you believe Iran is a supportor of international terror in order to further the Shiite/Islamic cause?

Do you renounce all of the militaristic and anti-female passages of the Koran?

Do you believe that Mohammed and his henchmen's main agenda was the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers?

The OT and NT have been "Crossanized" and cleansed to remove myths and embellishments. Do you believe the Koran needs a similar bath to remove the many myths that Islamic terrorists use to justify their cause?

Matthew :"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

The worst bloodshed ever happened in world history happened in Christiandom. So the fruits of the Christiandom tree is really bitter and thorny...

Wo, bro, you're forgetting the Hindu experience of Islam in India - makes yours look like a walk in the park.

Mathew,
I would much rather people read the original Islamic texts that clearly show Islam's inherent violence and hatred against disbelievers, than blindly accepting Western sympathizers of islam like Karen Armstrong and John Esposito.

How do you explain Muhammad's violence and genocide against the Jews?

And to some other sympathizer ... please desist with the tu quoque about Moses. The fact that Moses committed genocide does not mean that Muhammad's genocide of the Jews was acceptable.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Defend Islam on its own 'merits' - don't defend it by throwing stones at another religion.

TBONE11,
You're mistaken. The Meccans did not persecute nor murder the Muslims - it was the other way around.

The Jews did not break any 'treaty' with Muslims - it was the other way around.

You have fallen for the Muslim lies that always blame the victims.

If you read the hadiths and sira it was always the Muslims who marched out against the Jews who were always at home. The Jews did not march against the Muslims and yet they are always accused by Muslims of 'breaking' the treaty.

Open your eyes - the so-called Treaty or Charter of Medina did not exist - it is not included in any of the thousands of hadiths - no companions of Muhammad ever mentioned it. It was an invention of Ibn Ishaq.

Qasim Omar

Anonymous Liar,

You are sowing lies on this thread and you need to stop. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah so a true Christian will not be murdering Jewish people. As for Muslims being kind to Jewish people I would ask you if you are an ostrich. The Qur'an and the Haddiths are full of anti Christian and anti Jewish sentiment. Big deal if the Qur’an contains some kind words for them at the beginning of Muhammad's dealings with them. When the Christians and the Jewish people would not accept his "revelations" he became violent towards them. That is why there is a Qur'an 9 that does away with all the kind words that were said about them in the beginning. Stop telling lies and face the truth.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Anonymous,

You are sowing lies on this thread and you need to stop. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah so a true Christian will not be murdering Jewish people. As for Muslims being kind to Jewish people I would ask you if you are an ostrich. The Qur'an and the Haddiths are full of anti Christian and anti Jewish sentiment. Big deal if the Qur’an contains some kind words for them at the beginning of Muhammad's dealings with them. When the Christians and the Jewish people would not accept his "revelations" he became violent towards them. That is why there is a Qur'an 9 that does away with all the kind words that were said about them in the beginning. Stop telling lies and face the truth.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

dont lump all Christian together, you ignorant bigots!

Right wing Jewish leaders and evangelical Christians (both follow the old testament) are the ones ruining the country and both attack Catholics because they are the real church and the truth!

The latter create the former. It's a vicious cycle of madness, violence, and God.

Yes, you are right. A handful of terrorists cannot really stand in the way of world peace. Give me another 500 million years, and I will give you a world in peace! Oh, that's supposed to be 'pieces'. You were wrong after all.

I don't think the handful of extremists that exist in the Middle East today are that big of a threat to world peace. Their existance is temporary. They were not here fifty years ago and they won't be here twenty years from now. I think the worst threat to world peace is a nation with emmence destructive weapons that listens to those radical Christians who see everyone else as heathens and have no regard for the sanctity of life. They see the world as evil(they), and good(the Christians); forces of darkness(they), and forces of light(Christians). They are gaining more and more political clout in this country and their leaders are more vocal. They love for the world to break out into a world war for that will hasten the return of their Messiah so they can prove to the world, or whatever left of it, that their religion is right all along. You see them preaching every Sunday predicting how their Messiah is coming in 2007 because God deals in forty year clock periods and it has been forty years since Israel captured Jerusalem from the Arabs. I think those are the ones we should fear the most.

The born again Christians accuse muslims of being hateful towards the Jews. When inreality the opposite is true. Muslims are generous to the Jewish people but the Christians througout history have been antisemetic and ruthless when dealing with the Jews, 'the God killers,' as some Christians prefer to call them.
Nowhere was this tolerance more evident than in medieval Spain-the supreme example of Muslim, Jewish, and Christian cooperation-where Jews especially were able to rise to the highest positions in society and government. Indeed, one of the most powerful men in all of Muslim Spain was a Jew named Hasdai ibn Shaprut, who for many decades served as the trusted vizier to the Caliph, AbdeRahman III. It is no wonder, then, that Jewish documents written during this period refer to Islam as “an act of God’s mercy.”
In any case, even during the most oppressive periods in Islamic history, Jews under Muslim rule received far better treatment and had far greater rights than when they were under Christian rule. It is no accident that a few months after Muslim Spain fell to Ferdinand’s Christian armies in 1492, most of Spain’s Jews were summarily expelled from the realm. The inquisition took care of those who remained.

so you think that holocaust was just hitlers dislike of Jewish culture/religion?? It was politics and ideology - Jewishness and communism go hand in hand.

Who formed the majority of members in the US commie party...jewish people.

But they claim to be apolitical victims!

I had a jewish professor who told our class right after 9/11 - never ask WHY they hate us, why this happened. NEVER ASK WHY!

This sums up jewish mentality! They (Germans, Muslims, Palestinians, Catholics) are evil/intolerant and we are good.

Never ask why...

re 4:35 - Ahmenidijad? Is that you babe?

While all events and genocide of WWII were horrible (10 million Russian Christians killed by the Communist movement started by Jews) we only hear of the holocaust - books, movies, tv etc. etc.

Perhaps it is because Jewish men are the CEOs in hollywood and media empire NYC?

As for their treatment by the Germans - while the majority were innocent, leaders of the jewish in politics and business were trouble makers for the German govt. and many were involved with communism. Fascism rose to counter communism - and Jews in germany were on the wrong side.

A jew never asks why - how do I provoke and abuse my power in finance - he only seeks to blame others. Introspection is alien to most Jewish people.

In the News Today:

Abu Sayyaf militants have decapitated seven hostages and sent their heads to troops on the southern Philippine island of Jolo, the military says.

The men - six construction workers and a factory worker, all of whom were Christian - were seized on Monday near the town of Parang in Jolo.

The fact is that the world is full of violence and it had to be addressed in the Quran b.c at the time the Arab tribes were constantly violent. The polytheists murdered, tortured, took property and exiled the Muslims. Of course God will grant the rights to fight back. The violence contained in the Quran was used to warn those who were actively transgressing and abusing the Muslims, whether Jewish or polythiest. It was the Jews that broke their treaties with the muslims. Those who use the so called war verses do not understand the responbility that follows warfare. Bin Laden and others easily use these verses because they have a very simple and niave belief that the sword will solve all of Islams problems without realizing the political and economical problems that the Muslims face. The Quran encourages diplomacy, as the Muhammed used many times with tribes and nations (ethiopia, persia). How can there be peace of there is aggression from all sides of humanity?

KILI FAQIRAN, Pakistan (AP) - The boy with the knife looks barely 12. In a high-pitched voice, he denounces the bound, blindfolded man before him as an American spy. Then he hacks off the captive's head to cries of "God is great!" and hoists it in triumph by the hair.

My point is that if they didn't have Jews, and had had a visible minority of Muslims, they would have gone after them. They need a 'goat' to focus the energy of hatred upon. A similar fate happened to the Armenians. Aboriginal peoples have been evilly treated also.

And in the end, where does this argument lead you? Does it help solve the riddle of the rise of Communism in Russia and China? Does it solve the apocalypse unleashed by Pol Pot?

More importantly, does it shed any light on what confronts us all today in the guise of radical Islamism?

Leave Martin Luther to his rest. Like many figures of history, his great acheivements have blemishes. You can attribute the exact same sin to the founder of Islam. And I don't think the Jews have a special lock on this fate, but any people that stand apart and face diaspora to become a minority can face it. Ring any bells?

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers

On The Jews and Their Lies

By Martin Luther - 1543

Where do you think the Germans got the idea to murder the Jews from. Antisemetism was taught to them by Luther and is prevelant in the Book of John, if you cared to study it.

Luke,

"Take God out of the picture, and the human race advances."

When has God been taken out of the picture? Isn't that a vanity?

And while you could argue the totalitarian experiments by the USSR and China made technical advances, one has been repudiated, and the other will either morph or fail. Neither succeeded in completely suppressing mankinds natural affinity to God.

Quran 3:13 Not all of them(Jewish people)are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.

Speaking as an ex-Lutheran, I still don't see what your point was.

Bear in mind Martin Luther is venerated and honored in Christianity. There are thousands of churches that bear this Christ follower's name today.

Anonymous,

No handle means you look like a schizophrenic because your view is muddled with the posts of others posting as 'Anonymous'. Your latest post doesn't help, either. Does it have a point?

For what it's worth, Martin Luther and Mohammed shared a vexation with the Jews of their respective eras because they courted them only to be rebuffed. No fury like one scorned.

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

On The Jews and Their Lies

By Martin Luther - 1543

I don't accept the premise your question is riding on.

Do you think if the Muslims were behind the Holocaust, God forbid, the born Christians would give them the benefit of the doubt...

I guess I see how this question could be considered offensive. What if we re-worded the question as a matter of race. Can we say lawsuit?

Attributing the Nazi reign of terror and murder to Christianity conflates the evil the German people fell into with their historic ideals and even their own identity.

I think the real danger comes from a utopian zealotry. We have seen it in the French Revolution, which had high ideals at its root, and it seems to be agnostic about faith or race.

We have seen it in several costumes in the 20th century. Our technological advance has empowered it by bring large masses of people into proximity as never before.

This is why radical Islamism is to be feared, it is a fever to build a utopia that will brook no compromise, and I feel this has little to do with the 1400 year history of Islam, even though the zealots apparently use the Islamic texts skillfully.

My personal hope is that the great underlying religious traditions can rise to meet this challenge. It is true that many of the stewards of Christianity did not distinguish themselves against Nazism, but Pope John Paul did in fact deal a mighty blow to Soviet Communism. I pray that some champion of the Islamic tradition will stand against the zealotry of the Islamists.

Oh, dear, sweet Martin Luther....

He also felt he could chase away the devil by farting.

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

On The Jews and Their Lies

By Martin Luther - 1543

Are you telling me Hitler rounded up all the Jews, drove the trains, turned the gas in the gas chambers all by himself. The Christ people did that.

Anonymous in response to Anonymous,

"The important point here is that Christianity was not, and is not, a religion that taught its followers to kill those who did not believe."

a) I do something because I was taught to do so by the book I find most holy.

b) I do something that strictly goes against what I was taught by the book I find most holy but somehow justify it with the book I find most holy.

Which is worse?

(I was told by my 8th grade biology teacher that, when in doubt, pick the longest answer)

Luke,

Man, when I rode the bus, I was one of the bad kids...

Well, Jesus sure as hell didn't invent the microwave. Take God out of the picture, and the human race advances. Sometimes you have to toss the bad kids off of the bus, but that is evolution - and it's been going on for millions of years.

Forgive,

Why would you think the media hates God?

nitpicker,

because God commanded him to

Yassar Arrafat was given a peace prize. The prize is worthless.

jdwill,

Forgive them for they no not what they are saying. They have been indoctrinated by our Christian God hating media and educational system. You are right atheistic systems have murdered multitudes.

"The worst bloodshed ever happened in world history happened in Christiandom."

Were the wars, starvations, and murders caused by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot a feature of Christendom?

I think not. Anyway, Tu Quoque arguments won't help me make an evaluation of Islam. Only the actions of Muslims will.

If Muslims continue to demonstrate a willingness to violence as evidenced by the Danish Cartoon riots, eg., then I will consider these as my guides in any evaluation of Islam.

Give it up Anonymous - get a tag if you have anything worth while to say.

Trying to place the blame of last century's wars on Christianity is not going to work even if you bring in the gospels. You are ignorant of history.

Trying to incite hatred/division are you?

Anonymous wrote:

"The worst bloodshed ever happened in world history happened in Christiandom."

I'm not sure what you are referring to - could be the crusades. What you don't seem to understand is that this did not happen because of any teachings of Christianity or the bible. This happened because the Byzantines asked for some help when the Muslims started trying to take their land, and it snowballed into huge proportions of a "we're better and stronger than you" war of epic proportions.

The important point here is that Christianity was not, and is not, a religion that taught its followers to kill those who did not believe. The crusades were a travesty caused by men who used their positions to convince people that their cause was justified, but they were not scriptural in any way. Unfortunately I don't think the same can be said about Islam.

Matthew :"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

The worst bloodshed ever happened in world history happened in Christiandom. So the fruits of the Christiandom tree is really bitter and thorny...

Anonymous,

That is because the wars in Muslim countries are fought in the name of Allah and Islam. I don't know what your definition of christiandom is, but the holocaust, various genocides, etc. have not been fought in the name of Jesus and Christianity. They have not pointed to verses in scripture that have prompted them to the slaughter.

Prof. Esposito,

Thank you for writing the above article and I commend you for your honesty and courage to write about Islam in a candid manner at a time when prejudice and ignorance are so prevalent in this country and I am sorry for the personal attacks that these folks throw at you. From my personal experience, when people are shown the facts and can not refute your argument they try the personal smear tactic like what they did with John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt when they wrote about AIPAC and their influence on the American foreign policy decison making.

It is funny to me how if wars, genocides and holocausts happened in christiandom, they are all whitewashed and blamed on politics, greed and economics; Yet everything that happens in Muslim countries is always blamed on Islam. It is hypocrisy in its most naked form.

Victoria, I came away from the show last night on pbs thinking Islam is so diverse.

If anyone wants to see more about the show, go to www.pbs.org. Go to Crossroads.

Indonesia is such a beautiful country and people.

Alan Rickton -

You'd think that someone at Princeton would be able to distinguish from denying an assertion from making an opposite assertion.

Nowhere did I say that there was no conflict or that Islam is a religion of peace. I was pointing out that claiming the Crusades were a defensive war is ludicrous. I'm quite sure you've read the first person accounts of thousands of Christians who made the pilgrimage from Europe to Jerusalem in the decades prior to the Crusades. The Fatimids were quite tolerant of Christian pilgrimages. The Seljuks less so, but Christians certainly weren't slaughtered on the way there and back.

The cause of the Crusades were far more complex. Economic and social unrest in Europe. Seljuk advancement against Constantinople, etc.

Claiming the Crusades were a response to Muslim incursions is like saying France invaded Germany b/c Belgium aggression. By this time the Muslims were no longer a monolithic force, but with various political factions, like the Christians.

No where did I claim Islam is a religion of peace. However, I don't think you want to stack up the records of Christians against those of Muslims in the area of shedding blood. As I've said before, the problem is a human problem -- we kill each other.

Sorry, Victoria, I didn't get the address: Where can we watch extremists harass transvestites? Is it free?

wasnt the nobel prize just given to a muslim, i believe it was bangledesh? for his creative small
loan system he developed to help people from getting ensnared by loansharks?

i am holding out the hope that the series im watching will somewhere start to turn o a positive portrayal of islam so that i ends on a positive note, having already dealt with the issues that cause americans so much anxiety.

i was, however, surprised that so very very little attention was paid to the 1998 democratic system that was instituted into the indonesian government.

i thought it was clear that it should be given a tiny bit of coverage-

i guess people arent interested in seeing reasonable muslims merging democracy and islam so neatly-
well, its only 240 million people, after all-
the 4th largest country in the entire world, why would anyone be interested in it successes when we can watch extremists harass transvestites?

Faith and reason are not mutually exculsive and are not the enemy.

Media, politicans, corporations, banking need chaos to stay in power/make money and they highlight division, controversy and hatred to achieve this goal.

Wake up!

The last post is BS! Wars in the last century were not started because of faith in God - they were started by the lack of it or by using it in a political fashion.

It was the ideologies of Fascism and Communism (and their battle for power) that killed millions not Christianity.

There are pathologies to be found in both religion and secular movements of "reason" - blaming only one or the other makes you either a bigot or ignorant...but in your case it is probably a combination of the two.

The media likes to divide people along this lines to cause sensationalism and provide stories - stop bickering people! There is middle groud! (although politicans and media would like you to think otherwise)

Just in the last one hundred years, the following might give you a pose to think. The numbers speak for themselves:

Spanning much of the globe, World War II started by Christians and over Christian lands resulted in the deaths of over 72 million people, making it the deadliest conflict in human history.

World war I, which took place primarily in Christian Europe between 1914 and 1918 resulted in 9.7 million soldiers dead and 10 millions of civilians deaths.

The genocide and ethnic cleansing in Bosnia from 1992-95 started by the Christian Serbs against their Muslim countrymen caused the displacement of more than 2,000,000 people, an estimated 250,000 killed, tens of thousands raped or otherwise tortured and abused, and the innocent civilians of Sarajevo and other urban centers repeatedly subjected to shelling and sniper attacks.

Today in Iraq, an estimated 700,000 dead and 2,000,000 people displaced caused beacuse of the unprovoked attack against a Muslim country by, you guessed it, a Christian country. Most of the Cristian leaders condone the war and lobbied for for it since the biginning. They say regular folks don't get it but our president does. What they mean by that is thst this is a war between Islam and Chritianty. Killing the heathens is OK according to the Christian world view.

JDWILL asked: "One simple question. If the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, why do radical Islamist parties always do so well when there are elections in Islamic countries?"

Ghostbuster answered : The 2006 Palestinian elections are a glaring example. When given a choice, they chose Hamas.

The PLO is corrupt and ineffective. Hamas delivers better social services. So, they get voted in.

Islamist parties are voted in when "secular" governments from Algeria to Turkey failed to deliver. And in Algeria, the party voted in were purged by the military and the elections results declared invalid. Nary a protest from the west. And we have to wonder why Muslims are cynical about democracy as promoted and "exported" by the US in the Middle East.

Victoria

Some of the kind of news that do not really get reported about the Muslim world is Islamic banking and finance. A growth sector and which even Citibank and HSBC are making the most profits of. Even Japanese banks are getting into it and very enthusiastic too in my latest visit there. They don't want to miss out.

For your information, a Wall Street banker we also relied on is a very longststanding supporter and contributor of AIPAC. We know, and he know that we know, but business is business. Venting against Islam and Muslims is another. It would seem that Muslims are more "professional" in this regard. We gave him generous commissions and fees and he supported Israeli interests with some of the monies we gave him. It is his right, as it is my right to contribute to Palestinian refugees among others.

Jim C,

You wrote-
The Crusades were not a defensive war. A simple reading of first person accounts shows that Christians were not being slaughtered in the holy land.

--

Why do you whitewash Islamic history?

How do you account for these accounts?

But the present circumstances are forcing me to think differently about our way of life, for why are [so many] wars being fought among us? Why do barbarian raids abound? Why are the troops of the Saracens attacking us? Why has there been so much destruction and plunder? Why are there incessant outpourings of human blood? Why are the birds of the sky devouring human bodies? Why have churches been pulled down? Why is the cross mocked? Why is Christ, who is the dispenser of all good things and the provider of this joyousness of ours, blasphemed by pagan mouths (ethnikois tois stomasi) so that he justly cries out to us: "Because of you my name is blasphemed among the pagans," and this is the worst of all the terrible things that are happening to us. That is why the vengeful and God-hating Saracens, the abomination of desolation clearly foretold to us by the prophets, overrun the places which are not allowed to them, plunder cities, devastate fields, burn down villages, set on fire the holy churches, overturn the sacred monasteries, oppose the Byzantine armies arrayed against them, and in fighting raise up the trophies [of war] and add victory to victory. Moreover, they are raised up more and more against us and increase their blasphemy of Christ and the church, and utter wicked blasphemies against God. Those God-fighters boast of prevailing over all, assiduously and unrestrainably imitating their leader, who is the devil, and emulating his vanity because of which he has been expelled from heaven and been assigned to the gloomy shades.
- Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem 636/637AD

Maximus the Confessor (d. 662)
[From a letter to Peter, governor of Numidia, then in Alexandria, indicating the importance of prayer at this time, between 634 and 640.]

For indeed, what is more dire than the evils which today afflict the world? What is more terrible for the discerning than the unfolding events? What is more pitiable and frightening for those who endure them? To see a barbarous people of the desert overrunning another's lands as though they were their own; to see civilization itself being ravaged by wild and untamed beasts whose form alone is human. (Maximus, Ep. 14, PG 91, 533-44 [pp. 77-78])

Thomas the Presbyter (wr. ca. 640)
In the year 947 (635-36), indiction 9, the Arabs invaded the whole of Syria and went down to Persia and conquered it. The Arabs climbed the mountain of Mardin and killed many monks there in [the monasteries of] Qedar and Bnata. There died the blessed man Simon, doorkeeper of Qedar, brother of Thomas the priest. (Thomas the Presbyter, Chronicle, 148 [p. 119])

There are many more personal accounts of Muslim atrocities in the Holy Land - please don't whitewash the blood of the Christian martyrs in your haste to fool others about Islam's "peaceful" nature.

Allan Rickton
Princeton University

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 289; Narrated Ibn Abbas: On the day of the battle of Badr, the Prophet said, "O Allah! I appeal to You (to fulfill) Your Covenant and Promise. O Allah! If Your Will is that none should worship You (then give victory to the pagans)." Then Abu Bakr took hold of him by the hand and said, "This is sufficient for you." The Prophet came out saying, "Their multitude will be put to flight and they will show their backs." (54:45)

But what if there is no allah?
What if there is no god?
What if it was all made up by our pre-literate
ancestors?
They were wrong about most things back in those ancient times,and superstitious in the extreme.
Of course they'd invent a guy-in-the-sky idea.
But that was then.Long long ago.
They didn't know any better.
Why give so much credence to those old books they wrote?
There are much better books being written today
than the ancients could ever have dreamed of in the need to make sense of what life is all about.
Making believe there's a god stops all real
inquiry dead in its tracks.

Mr. Esposito,

Considering where you work, are your comments clouded by Muslim/oil profit grant money?

"And also, when was the last time a Muslim state waged war against another state just because the other state is non-Muslim?"

The constant warmongering between Pakistan and India? The Palestinian "state" vs Israel? The Arab states vs Israel? Somalia vs. Ethiopia? Sunni Muslims (Saudi Arabia) vs Shiites (Iraq/Iran- non Muslim as per the Wahhabis) )

From CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/02/03/iraq.cleric.ap/index.html
"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.
Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

jdwill asked: "One simple question. If the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, why do radical Islamist parties always do so well when there are elections in Islamic countries?"

The 2006 Palestinian elections are a glaring example. When given a choice, they chose Hamas.

sadly jihadist- i turned on a program on public television - its a new series called america at the crossroads- and is ostensibly about muslims-
today its about indonesia- so far it's covered ahamdiyists, terrorists,abu-bakr basheer, the extreme cleric who is the spiritual leader of the mujahadeen-so far he has had the most time to spak and put forth his views-transvestites and their harassment by the FPI (islamic defense league?)- now its portraying a woman named lillith who was arrested as a 'prostitute' and imprisoned for 3 days for having lipstick in her purse- the anti-pornography legislation- back to the marriot hotel bombing.
oowhee, lots of blood-
now the bali bombings-
50 minuts into the program-

well, now its time for the wrap up-
no some fear-mongering about muslims wanting to create a world wide empire.
hmmm- well its over now, and i didnt see one positive depiction of an indonesian muslim.

i kept waiting for something positive.
o well.

really jihadist, midst all this bloodshed and oppressing of people- how do you find time to conduct your international financing?


well, of course this must be a true and complete representation of the 210 MILLION MUSLIMS IN INDONESIA!
i mean, my american media wouldnt mislead me would it?

what a sad and disappointing picture they gave.

uh-oh- there are some crazed IDF's tearing up the street nd shooting guns and screaming anti-american propoganda-

no wonder people are terrified- if this were my source of information- id be terrified too.

alhamdoulila though- i have a brain.

peace

Ahmed---Victoria
There is a better way to deal with each other. We must change; I cannot change you or anyone else. The only person I can change is myself. For many this leap of faith is too far.

Also, what is more important to Muslims, the religion or Allah?

Oy vey,

We certainly don't need the Qur'anic “sword verses” or to be Muslims to wage wars. Now we have the UN Charter to define what is just or unjust war, what is legitimate or illegal war, what is aggression or otherwise. It's the new Holy Text.

And when was the last time any Muslim state or Muslim stop a war due to some other state paying the zakat? The last I checked, even Iran-Iraq (both Muslim states) war don't subsbribe to this principal.

And also, when was the last time a Muslim state wage war against another state just because the other state is non-Muslim?

As for zakat, Muslims from Morocco to Indonesia pay state taxes like everyone else and zakat too (minimal compared to taxes) as a secondary tax deductible contributions for charitable purposes and for maintainance of religious houses and institutions.

Which century is everyone talking of about Islam and Muslims? Much needed to be done to modernize Muslims, the majority of whom live in developing countries. But to just claim them to be thinking and living in a time warp is to ignore the educational, social and economic state of non-Muslims in Africa and Asia whose lives are no less, no more like Muslims in poverty - the great impediment for social progress.

It pays to read the earlier history of Islam and put Mohammad's experience into context. Those verses quoted refer to a time of violence against Mohammad unlike what some of you have reported here. Mohammad stayed peaceful even when he was driven from his hometown of Mecca into exile in Medina for 11 years. He chose Medina becuase of its tolerant Christians yet other tribes ganged against him and come after him in Medina. Many of his followers were angry at his non-violent approach until he received the war-in-defence revelations. Even then his enemies resorted to much treachery and underhand in trying to uproot his message and his people. The revelations noted are for those times orderding Mohammad to either fight them, OR accept their peace for a tax return to live under his protection as the Arab custom was and still is in places like Hadhramaut and Yemen OR to convert and pay taxes like any other muslim. Note peace was preferred if the oppostion asked for it since it was them who came after the prophet and his people.

One has to remember that all this was done to create a civil society since by their nature tribes were seeking dominance as they still do in Afghanistan and Iraq. Witness how a violent crowd hears no reason and blow up anyone and anything. This is certainly not how God wanted us to be. It is clear from verses that God wanted us to experience a form of peace and then contemplate the spiritual side of ourselves, since one can not be at peace if one is repeatedly under the threat of being killed. This is exactly why Mohammad left Mecca after many of his family and followers were killed. This is exactly why many Muslims leave their homelands to exercise their religion free from abuse. Please read this history of early Islam.

The crowning glory of Mohammad's leadership is when he finally become strong and moved with a major army to reclaim Mecca without any bloodshed and when they performed their pilgrimage Mohammad gave the key of the city of Mecca to his adversary (an honour in Arabia) and did not leave one of his soldiers in Mecca save those who wished to return to civil life and regain their homes in Mecca.

If the man was violent then he surely would have exercised his contempt and violence against those who did the same to him. Yet history and Quran tells us he came in peace and left in peace when he was strong. This is where Quran declared "you to your religion and me to mine. Neither I worship what you worship, nor I expect you to worship what I worship." This the final chapter of his domain. Live and let live. Let us have peace so we can move on to higher stuff.

Again please read widely before you make repeated untruths. As for current turmoil in the M.E., it has a history of Western interference for over a hundred years. You reap what you sow. Again read the history of British/American interference since the 1920's. Every single country has had its share of CIA/MI5. What do you think your re-action would be if Arab/Muslim coutries or the Japanese for that matter did the same to your countries? 911 and still you are killing many more people. If there is revenge it should be enough! It is human nature. No one wants to be dominated by force. Let us see ourselves as human beings and rise above our differences. One people and stop denigrading each other for the sins of our people in the past. We have no control over what they did but have much control over our own actions and what we do/say today.

This hate cycle must be broken before we can see any peace. "God does not change a people until they change what is inside them." Quran. Everyone wants to change the world but no one wants to change themselves. We all want to go to Heaven but no one wants to die!! Yet this is the death of The EGO.

Much love to ALL Creation.

The Crusades were not a defensive war. A simple reading of first person accounts shows that Christians were not being slaughtered in the holy land. Europe had a population problem, there were plenty of knights with no prospects for land b/c their older brothers inherited their father's estate. These landless knights were starting to fight amongst themselves, causing quite a bit of trouble. The Crusades were a convenient way to use up that excess energy. Well, that's one explanation anyway.

However, the idea of the Crusades as a defensive war is laughable. After Charles Martel defeated the Islamic invasion, there were no serious attacks from the Muslims into Europe.

Invasions of one culture into another culture has occurred throughout history, and will continue. All it takes is an ambitious leader to capitalize on people's natural distrust of people not like themselves, and blam - war.

What good has Islam brought? Well, you know those things called numbers -- you know they're called "Arabic numerals". That's b/c while Christians were burning the works of Aristotle and bashing each other on the head, Arabs preserved the works of the Greeks, and expanded on it introducing math and such back into Europe.

There are plenty of problems in the Islamic world, but it is a human problem. I would bet any amount of money that if you put Christians in the same situation, they would act in similar ways. By way of an example, I'll offer you George Habash who was one of the earliest Palestinian terrorists who also grew up a Palestinian Christian. Or I could point to the slaughter of Sabra and Shatila by Lebanese Christians.

Joel states:

"Both the Quran and the Hadith are filled with racist, genocidal, and yes even satanic verses."

So is the Jewish Babylonia TALMUD, you hypocrite.

It is a blue print for racial superiority and discrimination that is carried out in Israel today.

I could quote from it but I dont have time.

well, im irish american and i take no pride in relating this- but the first proponent of urban guerilla warfare- (or terrorism) was irelands own michael collins,

i hope no one takes it out on me for being proud of my irish heritage.

Mr Esposito,

I am ever saddened and dismayed by your writings. Your claim that Islam has been distortion is demonstrably bogus. Why do you feel so compelled to deceive your Western audiences?

Both the Quran and the Hadith are filled with racist, genocidal, and yes even satanic verses. How can you deny this? How can even the most unashamed apologist defend for instance the many sahih (reliable) traditions/prophecies to the effect that the Islamic Utopia on earth will not occur until faithful Muslims slaughter Jews until only a few remain crouching behind a tree or a rock? How is this not violent and evil?

Likewise, speaking of sura 9:29, you said the following:

“Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor hold the religion of truth [even if they are] of the People of the Book,” which is often cited without the line that follows, “Until they pay the tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (9:29).

How does the second portion lessen the evil and imperialistic quality of the verse? It says to offensively fight the unbelievers until they pay the jizya tax and feel themselves subdued. This is evil and is most certainly not defensive in any way. Consider what the revered scholar/alim Ibn Kathir had to say about sura 9:123:

"Allah commands the believers to fight the disbelievers, the closest in area to the Islamic state, then the farthest. This is why the Messenger of Allah started fighting the idolaters in the Arabian Peninsula. When he finished with them… He then started fighting the People of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians). After Muhammad’s death, his executor, friend, and Caliph, Abu Bakr, became the leader… On behalf of the Prophet , Abu Bakr… started preparing the Islamic armies to fight the Roman cross worshippers, and the Persian fire worshippers. By the blessing of his mission, Allah opened the lands for him and brought down Caesar and Kisra and those who obeyed them among the servants. Abu Bakr spent their treasures in the cause of Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah had foretold would happen. This mission (of world domination) continued after Abu Bakr at the hands of he whom Abu Bakr chose to be his successor… Umar bin Al-Khattab. With Umar, Allah humiliated the disbelievers, suppressed the tyrants and hypocrites, and opened the eastern and western parts of the world. The treasures of various countries were brought to Umar from near and far provinces, and he divided them according to the legitimate and accepted method. Umar then died… Then, the Companions among the Muslims… agreed to choose after Umar, Uthman bin Affan... During Uthman's reign, Islam wore its widest garment and Allah's unequivocal proof was established in various parts of the world over the necks of the servants. Islam appeared in the eastern and western parts of the world and Allah's Word was elevated and His religion apparent. The pure religion reached its deepest aims against Allah's enemies, and whenever Muslims overcame a community, they moved to the next one, and then the next one, crushing the tyrannical evil doers. They did this in reverence to Allah's statement, O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you."

How is this in anything other than pure evil?

If Islam is so appealing and wonderful, then why must it be spread by forceful subjugation?

Why do insist on defending the indefensible?

And lastly; how much do they pay you, an is it really worth it? :(

Islam sure is the religion of peace Offcourse not a fraction of its believers who are more strict and find every solution of Injustice into a payback violence.
I don't agree with Rogan Josh stating,"Though all muslims are not terrorists, all terrorists ARE muslims". Take a look around the world and you will see you yourself." what do you think about 'Timothy McWeigh'?? Oklahoma bomb blast in 1995 killing scores of innocents specially children? Was he a Muslim.. There sre so many examples. I think This Poem is for you:

A Terrorist
By: F.H. Khan

Dad! Who are terrorists? Where do they come from?
Are they humans? Does their religion allow them to kill?

My eight year old stunned me, and waited for my reply
I thought for the answer to make him satisfy
Son! Lack of pity, lack of guilt, full of hatred and rage
A terrorist is a person who lives in a cage

Where hatred governs and extremism prevails
And religion doesn’t count but faith does entail
He belongs to a world having its own beliefs
Breaking the law is taken as a source of relief

Will there be a time dad? When we will live in peace
Without a worry and fear of a sudden decease?
Oh my child! Worry not, and don't lose hope
All you need is trust and courage with a positive scope.

A terrorist has never and will ever win,
A war of terror that only makes him an assassin

I REST MY CASE>>

Matthew 7:16
"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

One simple question. If the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, why do radical Islamist parties always do so well when there are elections in Islamic countries?

I will stick to reading my bible, and let the Muslims show me the light of the Quran through their actions.

God will raise a nation or man up to accomplish his sovereign purpose. In 732ad Islam was on fire and consuming the better part of the then known world.
It was convert or die. A much smaller force led by Charles Martel took a stand at Tours France defeating the entire nation of Islam, twice. As the crescent flag of Islam fell
France celebrated by baking bread in the shape of crescents, what we know today as the croissant. I wonder if this is why we say “They ate his lunch,or, They had him for breakfast.

Do Muslims believe there religion saves them,or is it there god?

Right, Deb...anyone who questions the Israeli lobby and mass media about their good v. evil narrative for the middle east conflicts is paid by the Saudis.

Just like Jimmy Carter was paid to write is truthful book - Peace not Aparthied - on the Conflict.

Trying to kill free speech are you? Typical for neo-cons i.e. anyone who disagrees is an "anti-semite" or are "paid-off"

I think John Esposito is in the payroll of the Saudis - who preach Wahabi fundamentalism witn a kind face. Dr. Esposito has an axe to grind about Islamic terrorism and its support in the Quran.

Maulana Maudoodi, in his monograph JIHAD IN ISLAM, has unanimously stated that the objective of Islam is to establish Islamic laws all over the world. Islam does not respect artificial boundaries like secular republics. If Islam has to use force to attain these objectives, so be it ! This is Maudoodi's view. Who is right ? Esposito or Maudoodi ? (Similar views are echoed by Sayyid Qutb in his book MILESTONES.) Why can Muslims collect money and send Esposito on a whirlwind tour of mid-east, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Phillipines to debate with the Muslim fundamentalists and win the argument ? Instead of misleading westerners with how "benign" the Quran is, and that and this surah has been misinterpreted, why not convince these murderers first ? Academic lectures are fine but essentially worthless when many Muslims have embraced Wahabi fundamentalism and not John Esposito's academic babble.

As far as the straw man known as the crusades used by atheists and Muslims and many other who hate the Christian God I would say that there were many injustices done by the crusaders but the question is were they acting consistently with the teachings of Christ when they acted in an ungodly way. The testimony of scripture is a resounding no. Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," and "love your enemies." He said, "do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good." Muhammad on the other hand said,” Slay the infidels." He shed blood himself and his true followers walk in his footsteps today.

I am not defending the Catholic Church. The crusades were a response to the Islamic conquest by the sword of Arabia and Palestine. I know that teachers do not teach this very much anymore but it is the truth. Most of these so-called teachers have a political agenda and openly hate God. Therefore, they have rewritten history and have indoctrinated the masses.

God ordained government has been instituted to keep peace in society. People who break the rules of society are to be judged righteously by the governing authorities. Christians are to take up the cause of the weak and are to guard the downtrodden. Totalitarianism is an abuse of God instituted government. When evil kings and dictators are in power good men are to stand up and protect the weak and the poor. Sometimes this demands war.

This is in the Context of a Good Government
“For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer” (Romans 13:3-4).

Pablo

If the radical so called muslims are a small percentage of the muslim population, then I agree. Re-write the koran and bring it up to date in what is acceptable in todays world. Moderate muslims should call for a NK and the OK should be banned for use in teachings anywhere in the world. That way the future radicals of tomorrow whould not be able to "hijack" the message and hide behind the religon. Evil could be seen for what it is....a morally corrupt group of individuals without any religon at all.

Popes, crusades, Knights Templar...is this Dan Brown posting under various screen names. You people should get together and write a book!

PS - the secular, atheist international communist movement killed more people in the last 100 years than any religion has in 2000 years - so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

If you really want to find evil today look at the neo-cons, international bankers (rothschild), and corporations who spread the gospel of materialism.

Ok, I have one for ya.

What about the slaughter of the Templars? That was given a go by the Pope at the time.

It is very simple, eliminate the militant and anti-female passages in the Koran.

The NT has been cleansed, by the likes of Armstrong and Crossan and the Jesus Seminarians.

The OT has been relegated to the myth pile.

It is time to bring the Koran into the modern world via a good realistic bath.

So, Frank, what is your solution to the problem of Muslim extremists?

ill get into this about the crusades. the islamics had taken over what was called the holy land by murdering anyone who got in their way. remember that the holy lands were open to all until moho started at war around 629 ad. so after taking them by force, and robbing pilgrams and holding them for ransom, as well as murdering them, the pope called for a crusade to open the path so pilgrams could go to the holy lands.
the lands were not holy to islam - everything that took place was in medina and mecca - in what is now saudi arabia.
so he asked to be taken back that which did not belong to the thieves. reclaiming stolen property.
but to an islamic, after they had made such headway murdering their religion into other lands - by now they had iran, afghanistan, all the stans for that matter, north africia, central africia and east africia, and had expanded into spain and turkey, and lets not forget they invaded yugoslovia and carved out an islamic land there, which they now claim as a traditional homeland.
it appears that islam is the first to claim something is theirs forever - even if they stole it from someone else, discarding the original owners claim of right.

Pablo,

You wrote:

"I am not trying to hide anything. If someone murders in the name of Jesus they are in conflict with His words and His example."

So why did the Vicars of Christ on Earth, the Popes, call for the Crusades?

andea - look at it this way. a person says he believes in and lives his life by a book, and you read that book and part of it says be nice and kind and another part says hate and kill anyone not like you or will not become like you. further, that you must follow the commands of the book. and further, you can force them to become like you. what do you think of that person?
now the book is very specific that a group of people are to be hates, not to be worked with, or be friends with, but the parts about being nice, well they are general in nature and not once do those people who are deemed not deserving of your friendship, or life, specifically part of the nice parts. what do you have?
you have a book that preaches hate to a specific group and tells the follower to be nice to those people who are followers, like you are.
if it was just not liking me - no problem, its that killing part that i dont like. and islamic wars are not just wars against general enemies, they are wars against non islimics because they are not islamics.

Frank,

I'm sorry but it sounds like you are more interested in spreading false propaganda. You are making too many absolute statements when I hardly see you backing any of it up with facts. You are, in essence, resorting to begging the question, which means that your argument is "Islam is violent and evil because Islam is violent and evil."

Yes, you do point out many, MANY references to violence. However, I have repeatedly mentioned that the book was written back in a time when the social norms allowed this to happen and that similar references were found in the Old Testament. The Christians, however, were smart enough to address those references in the New Testament.

You tried to back up your facts with the Crusades, unfortunately, you forgot the fact that Pope Urban II turned the crusades into a religious war when all Alexius I wanted was some mercenaries to help defend the Byzantine Empire. You also forgot to mention the mobs of Christian crusaders that slaughtered Jews along the way; even those who were given sanctuary in Christian churches. Everything non-Christian, including Pagans, were considered infidels by the Christians and beheaded, as directed by the Pope.

This does not reflect badly in Christianity in any way, as it happened WAY into the past when war was the way of life, but try to present both sides of the story and not just the Catholic side.

I don't buy a lot of what you're saying. Terrorists for the longest time have stated that their reasoning for attacking the West is because of the Western World's encroachment of the Middle East in the form of propping up puppet governments and military bases.

That is not in defense of the terrorists, as I've stated before, settling grievances should be through open dialog and elections and not through suicide bombs. Those that resort to violence to settle grievances lack proper education, enlightenment, and humanity.

But I think you have far deeper issues with Islam than you are alluding to. You keep generalizing EVERY Muslim with the terrorists. Perhaps it is through your lack of direct experience with the different cultures and religions, and in this case, you are justified as the only news you hear about the Middle East is bad news. But this constant "THE MUSLIMS ARE OUT TO GET US" chanting is far from healthy. I cannot imagine living life with such paranoia.

Question: Have you tried talking to a Muslim about their views and how they feel about some of the topics you are bringing up?

Another question: Any Muslims on this forum that would like to address Frank's views on Islam?

I will agree with one of your points you made in an earlier post: "want islam to be a religion of peace, strike from the koran those saying that demand conversion or death. that would be a good start." This is the point that I was trying to make earlier - those that wish to spread peace and prosperity should be given all of the resources necessary to spread their message.

It's not THAT easy, but as you say, it's a start.

Anonymous,

If you do not want control you do not want Islam. Do you even know what you are talking about? I do not think so and I am afraid to say it but it sounds like more than half the people involved in this discussion have been brainwashed by our politically correct universities and media. This issue needs to be settled with reasoned debate but I am afraid that most of our nation has been indoctrinated to the effect that reason is hard to find.

Russell D.,

I'm not worried. I can tell by how you talk about her.

Deb,

I did know he was a survivor, but I didn't know he was teaching German. Perhaps having survived such a tragedy gave him the strength to save his students. From what little I know about him, the world is a better place because he lived.

Who wants to keep Americans scared?

Muslims? Nope! There are 10 million living peacefully in the US already.

NEO-CONS (wolfowitz, feith, pearle, Kristol) and the Israel Lobby (AIPAC)!

Fear = control = good politics for who want to fund their war in Iraq to protect Israel and to line the pockets of their families and friends in the defense industry.

EVIL!!!

Andrea:

Thank you for your response.
As for Luke's sister, I was only going with the flow. Don't worry, I am completely faithful to her. No woman can ever compare to her.

Andrea,

Did you know that one of the Professors who was killed at VTech Monday was a Holocaust survivor who was teaching German at the university?

Kamyar,

I think the tension will always be there, because the difference in cultures isn't just one of people doing things differently. It's a matter of thinking differently, and feeling differently. You can teach people that "in our culture we do this or that," but you can't teach them to think or feel a particular way; so much of that is born and bred into a person.

Pluralism,

Why me?

Russell D.,

Thanks for sharing what your wife went through with her identity. I don't know if this relates, but I was sharing my pride of being German with another person, and a Jewish man I worked with at the time accosted me because of what my people did to his people. Was your wife not proud of her heritage because of the violence in its past? I'm so glad for her she was able to overcome that with your help. But, if she's so beautiful, what was all that nonsense about Luke's sister??

Frank Collins,

I am starting to see your point now. And some of the ideas you raise are valid. But I don't think we should take only the parts of the Quran that deal with violence to identify what Islam is.

Andrea,

Go to those places now and preach that Jesus is the Son of God and see what happens to you. If you dare say something about Muhammad or Allah you will most likely lose your life. You will not be writing on this thread that is for sure. Everyone on this thread needs to get something straight. The Islamic worldview does not allow for pluralism. Stop trying to impose pluralism on Islam it does not and will not work. All the pluralists on this thread go and try to impose pluralism on the Islamic countries. You can see how it is working in Iraq. Wake up before it is too late for America. France, England, and many other European nations are on the verge of accepting some level of sharia law. Eurarbia is coming will the USA follow or will she awaken from her politically correct slumber?.

Luke,

You do bring up a valuable point, and I see what you mean now. I think over time, at least for a lot of people, the lines between culture and religion appear to blur into one, even though there is a distinct difference.

While both cultures could learn something from one another, there will always be tension. I don't see the Western World readily embracing the Middle East any more than the Middle East embraces the West. Sometimes, I wonder, if trying too hard to create a bridge would cause more problems than solve.

there were wars and they will always go on. the difference is that islam fights as a matter of religion, not for the ordinary reasons that people and countries fight wars. name one other religion that demands that the religion be spread through violence - not by individuals - but the religion itself - like the koran does. the bible does not do it. i am not sur about hindu, but i have never heard it of them.
and when islam started attacking jews and christains they did not even know islam existed, so islam can hardly claim it was in response to jews, or christians.

Mathew:

I'm sorry, but I do have a bit of a problem with your post. I read those stories, and what I see are examples of shrouded persecution, because they believe they share the same beginnings. "Oh, look how nice we are to these people, as long as they pay us money, and wear the clothes we tell them to wear, and don't cause any trouble." No group of people likes to be under the control of another group of people. What these stories don't tell you about is all the violent wars that were concurrently going on with the neighboring, non-Abrahamic peoples.

when the only book taught for 1400 years is the koran, and it is explained in the mosque, there to make people who are dirt poor feel like they are better than someone else, ie, jews and christians and hindus, then it is a matter of religion. in the west we have past the age where religion controlls counries political leanings, its only personal. but in islamic countries, its religion that controlls. look at egypt - they have constant battles over islam taking control of the county. india and pakistan - they fight over religion and murder each other with axes and knives - entire villages. and when the issue is a new mosque or temple - well the blood flows like water there. you see islam considers hindu idolitors as the vilest scum not worthy of life.
so for the east its religion, and dont think otherwise or you will be at a disadvantage.
and remember something else - in islamic countries a mosque is not just a place to pray. historically battles were planed in the mosque, weapons stored there, words preached to stur the faithful to kill the unfaithful.
there is a lack of understanding about islam - they understand the rest of the world very well- we want to live in peace - and they use that against us - killing when possible and when caught they lie and tell us they want peace to - we just dont understand them - that those parts of the koran formenting hate and murder - they are taken out of context.
wake up - if your not islamic they want you dead!

Speaking of Vikings, the Viking robbed and stole from people too, and didn't do it in the name of religion, so maybe the idea is that people will use the guise of religion to do a lot of evil things - and no matter how "evil" the religion is, it is the culture that spawns it. It's not like some dude said "Hey, let's kill stuff!" and every man, woman and child came running out and killing Christians. It is the culture that is to blame - if one hated so fervently they wouldn't need but a single voice to maim, kill, and torture - I mean, look at America.

OK, so my point isn't clear. It doesn't matter what we do, it is going to be next to impossible to get the people of the Middle East to embrace us, but the culture is the defeating factor, not the religion.

yes the crusades were a defensive war! christians were being robbed and held for ransom, holy sites to christians were being taken over by islam - like the dome of the rock taking over the temple mount of the jews. by the time the crusades took place islam had butchered and murdered itself into east and central and north africia, had butchered itself into india, and had moved into christian sites in lebanon, syria, turkey, spain, and was moving into italy. yes the first crusades were defensive. the following ones were nuts, but the first one was to stop islam's murdering itself into other countries. why do you think that the pope quoted a 10th century pope who said that it was evil that islam as a religion was entitled to murder to force converts. when it was brought up today - islam again rioted saying it was through the koran that they had a right to kill to force acceptance of islam.
everything that islam does in reference to murder can be traced back to the koran itself.
want islam to be a religion of peace, strike from the koran those saying that demand conversion or death. that would be a good start.

The thing is, I think it has less to do with the religion and more to do with the culture. Can you not see that point? If you live in a land of tyrants and constant fear, you are going to adhere to some kind of violent ideology. If you replaced the Muslims with Christians I would bet money that the same thing would happen.

I think it's time I share something personal.
My wife is half Iranian. She is a beautiful redhead and has a heart of gold. She was always ashamed to say that she is part Iranian. I told her to not be ashamed of it, but to embrace it and others would then embrace her. She has come to accept that fact and is proud of who she is. We have 3 children, and because of her blood, they are all 1/4 Iranian. If they should ever choose to learn about their Iranian heritage, than I will be more than happy to inform them of all aspects of that culture, including Islam.

But when I show them, I will make the very strong statement that I make about Christianity and every other religion. Don't follow the group, follow your heart. Religion isn't a bad thing, overall it is a good thing. You just have to be careful to guard against the ones who would choose to use that religion against you and others.

I hope that this can bring some light to this rather dark discussion.

Frank Collins - I agree that it is damn near impossible to find common ground amongst those that are so bent upon the destruction of others. They hide behind masks, make silly video tapes about their hatred, and make threats unto others. Sadly, in some cases, nothing can be done about those individuals.

Society needs to be much more adaptive and forward-thinking than this. We can't just simply react to every situation and dismiss all possibility of healing.

There are MILLIONS of young people that are born into Islam. Those individuals that teach peace and love need to be elevated and their message must be sent.

Perhaps I am somewhat naive to believe that there is still some hope in setting forth some changes. However, this is a problem that won't go away and cannot be ignored and something must be done about it.

I know that if you were to follow the news in the last few decades, the impression you were to get of the Middle East would be less than welcoming. To that, I apologize. I feel ashamed of my ancestors country's government, Iran, simply because our past was so beautiful and the news today we in the Western World hear about over there is quite grim.

But I do know that if enough moderates that are just sick of the current situation come forward, something can be done to save future generations. Sitting silent is not an option any longer.

Jim C,

I am quite jealous of your travels. Here I thought I was quite the world traveler having spent 2 weeks in Cambodia

So the Crusades were a defensive war, wow, someone just re-wrote history. Can you re-write mine Frank, I want to be a Viking!

I HAVE A small POINT TO MAKE: Think about it ladies and gentlemen, people can live in Europe (most countries) or in the US and can still criticise Christianity or Judaism (in some cases) and not fear death threats being made against them. Try doing that to Islam...go to a muslim-majority country such as Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan and criticise Islam and see what happens. Hell, try doing that sitting ANYWHERE in the world and see what happens (case in point: Salman Rushdie, Prophet cartoons etc.). Tolerance towards ideologic opposition, towards people with different beliefs is what any religion should be about. My way or the highway? That's no true religion, that's a farce, that's a cult!

i read everything about islam - the difference is i dont believe it just becasue someone wrote it down, especially if it conflicts with the koran. you want islamic history - no problem.
well lets see. in 620 ad moho the child RAPIST started attacking his neighbors. yes he was a rapist - anyone who has sex with a 9 year old is a rapist. what was the first thing they did when islam took control of iran - reduced the age of consent to 9. then he made up some fake religion and said he was acting on behalf of god, who he gave a different name to. the name of the religion means submission - but not to god, to moho the child molester. he pretended to be a decendent of abraham - claiming that he and other arabs were from the union between abraham and his wifes servant. of course there is not one bit of fact to back this up. in 3,000 years there was nothing to show it to be true and when you add another 2,000 year, nothing subsequently has proved it. then he started attacking jews and Christians by attacking north and west, telling his followers that they should not even have a friend that was a jew or Christian. he spread the islamic cult by violence. as a matter of fact he started killing jews and christians before they even knew he existed. that was in 629 ad. he came up with his fake connection with abraham to pretend he had a foothold in jerusalem, and then about 60 years after his death they decided to pretend that he was there, when he wasn't. the dome of the rock is actually the dome of the crock - as in crock of crap. eventually his followers attacked to the east, killing hindu's with much gusto. via the sword he attacked and butchered islam into turkey and into europe, taking over spain sicilly, and other places. this continued for 400 years unabated until the crusades slowed them down.
in the 70's islamic scum attacked America by attacking the embassy in iran, karter did nothing. they attacked the marine barracks in lebanon, reagan did nothing. then things heated up. the achilli lauro hijacking, the lockerby downing, the attack on the bar in germany were our soldiers were enjoying some down time, the 1st wtc bombing, attacks on the American embassy's in africia, the kobar towers, the USS Cole, somolia, and finally 911.
this is part of 1600 years of islam attacking those not islamic, nothing new has been added.
want more history of islam? how about turkish islamics murdering 2,000,000 christians in the armenian genocide?
dont give me that religion of peace stuff - its not a religion, its a model for violence, nothing more.

Kamyar you are a gentleman and a scholar. Everything needs an update once in a while. Hopefully a little culture and a bit of compassion could resolve the issue but we get so angry defending ourselves and our way of life that we throw that to the wind. I think I made the point about how religion is influenced by culture. You really have to understand the culture to know the religion, and that is why religion must change or people with think it nonsensical.

I see a lot of speculation and history in these postings but one thing seems to be unmentioned. In todays world there is sectarian violence in the Middle East, Indonesia, Phillipines, Balkans, Chechnea, India-Pakistan, the list goes on. The only common denominator is Islam.

So? What, indeed, is "true Islam"? What are "the mainstream and normative doctrines and laws" that are universally indicative statements of true Islam? All we are given are historicist apologetics, as in - - -

"Like all scriptures, Islamic sacred texts must be read within the social and political contexts in which they were revealed. It is not surprising that the Quran, like the Hebrew scriptures or Old Testament, has verses that address fighting and the conduct of war. The world in which the Islamic community emerged was a rough neighborhood. Arabia and the city of Mecca, in which Muhammad lived and received God’s revelation, were beset by tribal raids and cycles of vengeance and vendetta. The broader Near East, in which Arabia was located, was itself divided between two warring superpowers, the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) and the Sasanian (Persian) empires."

Mr Esposito needs to do better than offer the obvious of historical relativism.

Grade = C-

Pablo,

I think that until we focus on exactly what parts of the Qur'an actual people like Osama bin Laden use to justify their actual actions, we aren't actually doing anything by citing random parts of the Qur'an. If there is some obscure command that can be interpreted as warrant to kill people buried deep in the pages of the Qur'an, unless people actually use that as a justification for killing people, it matters not at all. It is a tree falling in a forest with no one to hear the crash.

The important question is not whether someone could use the Qur'an to justify murder, since anyone can use any text to justify whatever they want if they are determined enough. The important question is, given that there are both violent and non-violent things in the Qur'an, what is the principle or motivation that believers use to choose what parts they will give priority to? Often times the answer is far more complex than we are giving it due.

For example, if a person (of no religion) feels particularly constrained and forced to kill others by suicide bombing, they will go out and look for the religious scripture most congruent with their pre-established plans.

This is how people function: they have certain beliefs about what is right or wrong and they search for the religion that reiterates those beliefs. Moreover, when their religion doesn't wholly reinforce their beliefs, they choose to ignore or reinterpret the parts of their scripture that contradict their beliefs.

Now, I ask you: What is the method to this madness? What is the general account of how human beings change their moral attitudes and thereby denounce or modify a certain scripture?

To me, that is a far more interesting question than whether the Qur'an can be interpreted violently. Of course it can be interpreted violently! That's a simple fact that no one can argue against, unless they don't follow the news or read history. But if you are going to move from the fact that a scripture can be interpreted negatively to then asserting that this interpretation is somehow objectively prior to any other interpretation, I will kindly ask you to justify your profound insight into the realm of Platonic forms.

Andrea -
I had a great time over there. My backpacking/hitch-hiking trip was over a summer. I lived in Egypt for a little over a year, and I've been visiting/working all around the Gulf for a few years.

I'm a history buff, so there's plenty to see and do in that region.

I've traveled quite a bit all over the world, and the only time I've ever been invited into the home of someone I just met that was far, far poorer than I was and given a nice meal was in Syria.

Hey Frank,

Remember when Israel attacked Lebanon?

"what would happen if the only weapons were had by the jews - there would be peace"

How many Christians killed each other during WWII?

By this time Christians organized themselves by nations, but the principle is the same. People can be horribly savage when you get into an "us" vs. "them" scenario.

Luke - you have nothing to apologize about. :) My question was more rhetorical - I just want people to think about what they're saying. And your last post was very appreciated and the kind of tone that is required for everyone to want to work together. Kudos to you. :)

I was actually referring to those individuals that are posting verse after verse from the Koran and going "SEE, THEY ARE ALL TERRORISTS. THEY ARE VIOLENT PEOPLE. YUK YUK YUK." A lot of people are just going on and on with this, but yet they are adding nothing of value to the discussion. They are just rehashing the same tired argument.

To this I quote the Zoroastrian phrase Pendar-e Nik, Goftar-e Nik, Kerdar-e Nik. Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds. Fighting hatred with more hatred creates wars.

MANY religious texts were written in a time when war was the way of life. After the industrial revolution, it seems as if society transformed from the age of fighting to the age of diplomacy. Suddenly, rape and pillage turned to free trade and cross-country dialog. Some people chose to live in the past. I don't blame the religion for causing so many problems and wars. I blame the people who follow the religion and then take it VERY literally to the point where they are breaking established social norms and mores.

My proposal for Islam is that Islamic scholars, those who truly believe that society must change with the times, need to stress the importance of being good citizens, living in peace, and never resorting to violence unless it is out of self defense.

I also would like to see the media talk to these moderate scholars some more and to get their word out. I know that they are out there, but they get very little coverage. News is sensationalist and those who preach peace get little coverage.

This is just the first step of many to take. Many terrorists have legitimate grievances against what they are fighting, however, that does not give them the green light to use violence. It needs to be taught that settling differences should be done in an open forum, NOT using bombs.

I hope everyone is having a pleasant day. :)

~Kamyar

Jim C,

Right on.

"I've hitch-hiked through Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Israel. Lived in Egypt. Worked in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Qatar."

Sounds fascinating. How long were you in these places?

The truth is in actions not words. Muslims are killing each other by the thousands in Iraq. What kind of moral society justifies killing thousands of their own people in the name of any religion. Sounds more like a cult than a religion.

pable - you are good. been doing this for a while i see.

Frank Collins - I assume you hadn't read my post, or actually any history at all. Your paranoid fantasy has no historical or current basis.

Frank Collins, it is really incredible that you can speak for all of these groups you know nothing about. You are one classy fellow. I'd much rather have my weapons handed over to Iran than to you.

how do you find common ground with islam when the koran commands that they kill you if you dont convert? what do you offer them - how about you let me live until in 70 instead of 80? there are times when there is no common ground.
and consider this - is it safer to be islamic in a non islamic country or a chiristian, or jew, or hindu, in an islamic one?
every islamic country in the world and their 1.2 billion people could all be killed right now by the western nations and we could jsut take their oil, but we have not done that. what do you think would happen if it was reversed and all the weapons were in the hands of islamics - WEL WOULD ALREADY BE DEAD!
its like israel - what would happen if the only weapons were had by the jews - there would be peace. what would happen if all the weapons were in the hands of the islamics - all the jews would be dead.
get real people - a radical islamic is one that refuses to follow the koran where it says kill those that will not convert - or cut off limbs and hold them for ransom - both alternatives appear unappealing to me.
the problem is islam.

Trying to determine True Islam is like trying to determine True Christianity -- everybody thinks they are right.

Lots of speculation here, but I'll just offer my own anecdotal evidence, FWIW. I've hitch-hiked through Turkey, Syria, Jordan and Israel. Lived in Egypt. Worked in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Qatar. I went openly as a Christian and an American. And here I am today alive and well.

It's been said a couple of times here, but it bears repeating -- it's more useful to look at how Muslims actually behave than pick quotes out of a book. Yes, there are Muslims that are extremely violent that would happily kill me to make a point. And yes, there are probably more Muslims like that than there are Christians, right now (historically, it's been less clear). However, my being alive and well today provides pretty clear evidence that the Muslims that are violent b/c of their religious beliefs are the vast, vast minority.

You can argue all day about who is a true Muslim or not, but that is just semantic self-gratification made to make yourself feel better about yourself, IMO.

Mavvadat,

That is simply not true in the Muslim world I am a polytheist because I believe in the trinity. This of course is a misunderstanding of what the doctrine of the trinity is (Three persons who are one God). Note the following surahs:

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

As for your view on Sura 9 I disagree and there are plenty of Middle Eastern scholars who would disagree with you. I saw one posted on this thread under Al Shawkani

Pablo

The following quotes from renowned Historians shows Prof.Espiroto is correct.

According to H.G.Wells, the Caliph Omar, the brother-in-law of Prophet, moving around and engaging in friendly chat with Christian Patriarch in Jerusalem while keeping away from his own Muslim warriors.

“Jerusalem…passed once more out of the rule of Christians. But it was still in Christian hand; Christians were tolerated, paying only a poll tax; and all churches and all relics were left in their possession. Jerusalem made a peculiar condition for the surrender. The city would give itself only to the Caliph Omar in person…He came to Jerusalem (638 A.D), and the manner of his coming shows how swiftly the vigour and simplicity of the first Moslem onset was being sapped by success. He came the six-hundred-mile journey with only the attendant; he was mounted on a camel, and a bag of barley, another of dates, a water-skin and a wooden platter were his provision for journey. He was met outside the city by his chief captains, robed splendidly in silks and richly caparisoned horses. At this amazing sight the old man was overcome with rage. He slipped down from the saddle, scrabbled up dirt and stones with his hands, pelted these fine gentlemen, shouting abuse. What was this insult? What did this finery mean? Where were his worriers? Where are the desert men? He would not let these popinjays escort him. He went on with his attendant, and smart emir rode afar off-well out of his stones. He met the Patriarch of Jerusalem, who had apparently taken over the city from its Byzantine rulers alone. With Patriarch he got on well. They went around the Holy places together, and Omar, now a little appeased, made sly jokes at the expense of his too magnificent followers.” [Ref: The Outline of History. By H.G. Wells. Page 489-490].
John W. Draper, an American historian, states:
“The Crusades were instituted by a French Pope, Urban II…Their track was marked by robbery, bloodshed, and fire…The capture of Jerusalem [by Crusaders]…was attended by the perpetration of atrocities almost beyond belief. What a contrast to Arabs! When the Khalif Omar took Jerusalem, A.D.637, he rode into the city by the side of the Patriarch Sophronius, conversing with him on its antiquities. At the hour of prayer, he declined to perform his devotions in the Church of Resurrection, in which he chanced to be, but prayed on the steps of Church of Constantine; ‘for,’ said he to the patriarch, ‘had I done so, the Muselmen [Muslims] in a future age would have infringed the treaty, under color of imitating my example.’ ”[Ref: John W. Draper: “History of Intellectual Development of Europe.”1876. Vol.II. Page 22-23.]

Karen Armstrong tells same story in her book, Holy war in page.30 and also by the world-renowned historian, H.G.Wells in his The Outline of History in Pages 489-490.

The Following is Caliph Omar’s, the brother-in-law of Prophet Muhammad, edict written in 638 A.D and recently translated by Yohanan Friedmann of Hebrew University in Israel:

“In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate. This is the assurance of safety which the servant of God, Umar, the commander of the faithful, has granted to the people of Jerusalem. He has given them an assurance of safety for themselves, for their property, churches, their crosses, the sick and the healthy of the city, and for all the rituals that belong to their religion. Their churches will not be inhabited by Muslims and will not be destroyed. Neither they, nor the land on which they stand, nor their cross, nor their property will be damaged. They will not be forcefully converted. No Jew will live with them in Jerusalem.” [Ref: “The History of al-Tabari” translated by Yohanan Friedmann of The Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Vol. XII. Page. 191].

Famous American historian and philosopher, Will Durant, states in his “The Story of Civilization:
“To…Christian, Zoroastrians, Sabaeans, Jews-the Umayyad caliphate offered a degree of tolerance hardly equaled in contemporary Christian lands. They were allowed free practice of their faiths, and the retention of their churches, on condition that they wear honey-colored dress, and pay poll tax of from one to four dinars ($4.75 to 19.00) per year according to their income. This tax fell only upon non-Moslems capable of military service; it was not levied upon monks, women, adolescents, slaves, the old, crippled, blind, or very poor…Omar himself continued in Egypt the allowances formally made to the Christian churches by the Byzantine government. The Jews of the Near East had welcomed the Arabs as liberators. They suffered now diverse disabilities and occasional persecutions; but they stood on equal terms with Christians, were free once more to live and worship in Jerusalem, and prospered under Islam in Asia, Egypt, and Spain as never under Christian rule [and] Christians of western Asia usually practiced their religion unhindered; Syria remained predominantly Christian until third Muslim century; in the rein of Mamun (813-33) we hear of 11,000 Christian churches in Islam-as well as hundreds of synagogues and fire temples. Christian festivals were freely and openly celebrated; Christian pilgrims came in safety to visit Christian shrines in Palestine…Christian heretics persecuted by the patriarchs of Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch were free and safe under a Moslem rule. [And] In the ninth century the Moslem governor of Antioch appointed a special guard to keep Christian sects from massacring one another in church. Monasteries and nunneries flourished [and] The Mohammedan administrative bureaucracy had hundreds of Christian employees…The Christians of the east in general regarded Islamic rule as lesser evil than of the Byzantine government and church. Despite or because of this policy of tolerance in early Islam, the new faith won over to itself in time most Christians, nearly all the Zoroastrians and pagans, and many of the Jews of Asia, Egypt, and North Africa. [and] Where Hellenism, after a thousand years of mastery, had failed to take root, and Roman arms had left the native gods unconquered, and Byzantine orthodoxy had raised rebellious heresies, Mohammedanism had secured, almost without proselytism, not only belief and worship, but a tenacious fidelity that quite forgot the superseded gods.”
[Ref: Will Durant: “The Story of Civilization”. New York.1950. Vol. 4. Page 218]

Karen Armstrong, Professor at Leo Baeck College for Study of Judaism and the Training of Rabbis and teachers states:

“Not surprisingly, therefore, Nestorian and Monophysite Christians welcomed the Muslims and found Islam preferable to Byzantium. ‘They did not inquire about profession of faith,” wrote the twelfth-century historian Michael the Syrian, ‘nor did they persecute anybody because of his profession, as did the Greeks, a heretical and wicked nation.’…Christians were allowed to build churches freely: indeed, during the seventh and eight centuries there was quite a spate of church-building in Syria and Palestine. Christians were still allowed to hold their processions and services.” [Ref: “Jerusalem” By Karen Armstrong. Page. 232].

Heinrich Graetz, the leading 19th century Jewish historian, states:

“Wearied with contemplating the miserable plight of the Jews in their ancient home and in the countries of Europe, and fatigued by the constant sight of fanatical oppression, the eyes of the observer rest with gladness upon their situation in the Arabian Peninsula. Here the sons of the Judah were free to raise their heads, and did not need to look about them with fear and humiliation, lest the ecclesiastical wrath be discharged upon them, or the secular power overwhelm them. Here they were not shut out from the paths of honor, nor excluded from the privileges of the state, but, untrammeled, were allowed to develop their powers in the midst of free, simple and talented people, to show their courage, to compete for the gifts of fame, and with practiced hand to measure swords with their antagonism.” [“A History of Jews” by Heinrich Graetz (New York 1894) page p. 3: 236.]

Karen Armstrong documents this:
`“Umar [the brother-in-law of Prophet Muhammad] invited seventy Jewish families from Tiberias to settle in Jerusalem…They were also allowed to build a synagogue—known as the ‘Cave’ near Herod’s western supporting wall…Muslims had not only liberated them [Jews] from the oppression of Byzantium but had also given Jews rights of permanent residence in their Holy City…Towards the end of the seventh century, a Hebrew poem hailed the Arabs as the precursors of the Messiah.” [Jerusalem page.233]

Jewish Historian, Max I. Dimont states:

“The improbable but true tale of a camel driver’s establishment of a world empire in the name Allah, wherein the Jews rose to their Golden Age of creativity, only to be plunged into a Dark Age with the eclipse of the Crescent and the ascent of the cross.” ( Ref: “Jews, God and History.” by Max I.Dimont. New York.1962. Page 183)

“Within a hundred years the Mohammedan Empire rose to challenge Western civilization. Yet, within this religion,… the Jews not only survived but rose to one of their greatest literary, scientific, and intellectual peaks…Seven hundred years passed and the pendulum swung. The Islamic world crumbled and the Jewish culture in the Islamic world crumbled with it.” [Ref: “Jews, God and History.” By Max I.Dimont:. New York.1962. Page 17].

These historical facts expose the Islam is a tolerant religion that encourages to the uplifting of all people, not the Muslims alone.
So great was the fame of Rabbi Moses ben Maimonides (1134-1204 A.D), the author of Mishneh Torah (The “Second Torah”) that:
“Richard the Lion Heart, King of England, offered him a post as his personal `physician, but Maimonides refused, feeling more at home in the culture of Arabic civilization than in the barbaric atmosphere of feudal Europe.” [Ref: “Jews, God and History.” By Max I.Dimont: New York.1962. Page. 179].

The rejection of the offer from the Christian King of England by Maimonides is shows that Jews felt more at home and free in Muslim empire than in the Christian empire.

Jewish Historian, Ilan Halevi States:

“It is true that the Arab world was much more tolerant than Christian West towards the Jews living within it, and that, in the land of Islam, especially in the Arab world, the concept of anti-Semitism such as it developed in Europe in the 19th century lacks the roots and encrustation that it has in Germany or Russia.”
[Ref: “A History of Jews, Ancient and Modern.” by Ilan Halevi. P. 199].

I would not claim that there were no intermittent persecution of Jews and Christians by some Muslims. However, according to Karen Armstrong, these persecutions occurred only during the time when House of Islam was invaded by Christians and Jews. [Holy War by Karen Armstrong. Page 30].

However, in the contemporary Muslim majority countries all people including Christians and Jews, Muslims, women are oppressed.

Kamyar, you are right. I apologize if I am being combative. Pablo, I hope that the people of your faith never try to harm me, as I hope the people of my faith never harm you. The world is a better place because people of your faith exist, and I wholeheartedly believe that. You live your life for God, and I live mine for me, but we are both living, so that is grounds enough for us to make sure we keep living, yes?

The point that Mavaddat makes is very important. People do choose what they want to believe, whether or not they feel the need to justify it.

I know in my own circumstance with Christianity, I agree with the school of thought that the laws in the OT were made under a covenant with a certain group of people at a certain time for a certain purpose, and do not apply to us today. Not everyone will agree with that, and that is their choice.

I do not know if there are any similar kinds of reasonings for different schools of thought between Muslims. I do know that as the conquering of nations became more important, so did the more violent verses. But we are past those times now, for the most part...

Ya know Pablo we've had this discussion on other forums. Your religion is not void of it's own fair share of violence in it's history. You can't just avoid the question by saying that the killers didn't represent the majority, because most times they did. No one was crying out at stonings just as no one cries about abortion clinic bombings now. You can't just isolate yourself to make your argument viable. If you are basing your belief on Jesus's words alone then please say that Moses was a murderer. Thanks.

Mavaddat - I appreciate it. It makes me sick to my stomach every time I read discussions on here that get so out of hand. It seems like nobody is interested in finding common ground and working together to make a more peaceful world. Everyone just wants to yell at each other and make each other feel inferior.

I was born and raised in the U.S. My family is from Iran and I went to visit my relatives there twice. When relatives and some of the common citizens in Tehran (random people I would chat with) found out that I did not believe in Islam, much less ANY mainstream God, they didn't care one bit. They were just happy to have me there and we all enjoyed discussing religion, politics and common interests.

Perhaps Iran is an exception (I believe Iran should go back to its Zoroastrian roots, but that's a different story), but based on the comments I see here, I should have been stoned to death or paid some weird obscure tax, not treated with hospitality.

There are extremists out there that would have probably tried to jail me. I have no doubt about that. But the biggest problem in society is that the actions and words of the minority extremists speak WAY louder than those of the moderates. When a terrorist blows up a building, his or her group claims that they did it in the name of their religion. But that simply does not make it so.

Final thought - what purpose does this discussion serve? Let's say people on here prove that Islam is a religion of hatred and war, blah blah, like some of you are so desperately trying to prove. What do you propose? If you have no proposal or anything worthwhile to add, then you're just causing meaningless arguments, commonly known in the online world as trolling.

It would be much nicer if everyone took a deep breath and just discussed their thoughts and feelings about the religion and what they believe should be done. Trust me, it would go a long way with building rapport.

Love and Light to everyone.

~Kamyar

Pablo:
The question you asked Victoria, I now ask to you. Give it a try wise guy.

No Luke,

I am not trying to hide anything. If someone murders in the name of Jesus they are in conflict with His words and His example. If someone murders in the name of Allah they are following the words of the Qur'an and the example of the prophet of Islam. Why do you think Osama Bin Laden harkened back to The Battle of Badr when great slaughter was done at the hands of the prophet when speaking his "victory" on 9/11. Just because Muslims in this country tell you that Islam is peaceful does not make it true. The evidence unequivocally screams otherwise.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 289; Narrated Ibn Abbas: On the day of the battle of Badr, the Prophet said, "O Allah! I appeal to You (to fulfill) Your Covenant and Promise. O Allah! If Your Will is that none should worship You (then give victory to the pagans)." Then Abu Bakr took hold of him by the hand and said, "This is sufficient for you." The Prophet came out saying, "Their multitude will be put to flight and they will show their backs." (54:45)

Pablo

AJ, you certainly have a big mouth for someone with very little to say.

nitpicker - dont feel bad - just change religion and become what you really are: ISLAMIST - terrorist.
islam is foundamentalism, backward, brings and teaches only war against infidels...but you wouldnt know it even if it hits you!

you tell me what good did mohammed and islam brought to the world???

While where at it, let's take a look at all of the figures in religions (maybe some philosophies). Lao Tzu was probably at least 7 people (most of them women), Moses advocated killing women and children, Krishna advocated war, etc. The truth is, all of these people were just that, people. Crazy as all get out. There is the idea that Jesus was actually the son from Mary's run in with a Roman soldier. Honestly when I hear people speak about God the way they do - I think they are all hallucinating. I guess I'm just saying that crazy people are usually the loud ones.

True islam...
The God(Allah) of Quran portrayed as a God of mercy and compassion as well as just judge.Ref.113 and 114 chapters.
But,how should we interpret following verses.
I(Allah) will cast Fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non-muslim).Therefore strike off their heads...8.12
Those who reject Faith(islam) and die rejecting,on them is the curse of Allah.2.161
Is this compassion?

If your enemy inclines toward peace,then you too should seek peace 8.61
Dear professor,how could we understand following verses.
O Prophet,strive hard against the unbelievers(non-muslims) and be harsh with them 9.73
Punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger is execution or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides 5.33

Not only 9.5 but,also 4.89 says,
So choose not friends from them(disbelievers,non-muslims) till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah,but if they turn back then seize them and kill them wherever you find them 4.89
is this mercy?

Besides,what is House of War?

How about Southern Baptists? Although they don't outright say it, they certainly advocate violence. Pat Robertson advocated killing various leaders of other countries - last time I checked, that was violence.

It all about the founders of Islam:

A brief summary:

Mohammed was illiterate.

Ref.: See Karen Armstrong's books on world religions. Karen is an On-Faith Panelist.
"Karen Armstrong
Prominent author on religious history
Karen Armstrong’s books about different religions, including her highly acclaimed “A History of God,” have made her one of the most prominent authors on religious history. Since September 11, 2001, she has been a frequent contributor to conferences, panels, newspapers, periodicals and broadcast media on the subject of Islam.

Mohammed hallucinated-

i.e. he talked to angels ("pretty wingy thingies). We all know angels are mythical creatures blended into the OT, NT and Koran by scribes familiar with ancient extinct religions.
Refs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel and http://www.likeacat.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1
"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "
"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

Mohammed's scribal henchmen and fellow founders of Islam had militaristic agendas of looting/plundering the lands of non-believers.

Refs: Common sense and any world history book. Angels did not reveal god's word since angels don't exist so scribe(s) had to write the militant passages of the Koran but that might be letting ole Mohammed off the hook as a dictator of not only Arabic tribes but also of many disturbing words and ideas. The looting and plundering of the lands of non-believers is history. The history continues with the contemporary Sunni/Shiite bloodletting and the statements by Bin Laden, Islamic clerics throughout the Mideast and the leaders of Iran."
Professor JD Crossan "crossanized" the NT to bring it into the realm of the real world. He should now "crossanize" the Koran to remove its militant and anti-female rhetoric.

When Moslems accept this contemporary and realistic view of Mohammed and its other founders and renounce all the militaristic and anti-female messages of the Koran then I will accept that Islam is not a violent religion.

Dear Nitpicker -- if you don't agree with some of the posts, then refute them with logic and argument -- and not the posting equivalent of "these comments hurt my feelings."

To all those who favor moral equivalency comparisons (i.e., "we're just as bad as they are") -- please point to one Christian faith that advocates violence in the name of Jesus? I could point to whole swaths of the Muslim world that claim their religion compels such action in the name of Allah.

*violent

Kamyar,

Please continue posting. I found your insights to invaluable to the discussion at hand. And a very entertaining and informative pop quiz. I actually learned a lot from your post!

Frank Collins,

Do not tell me to read my koran. I don't have one. I have a Bible, but I don't read it anymore either.

My "why" was more in reference to why any religion could be considered violence.

David,

This commentary is from the respected Al-Shawkani so stop acting like you know something about Islam. It sounds like your view of Islam has been shaped by our politically correct media. Hear the words of an expert on true Islam:

Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

Frank,

You need to relax, buddy. It's true that Muslims justify the violence they commit by appealing to their holy book, but that is their interpretation of the scripture. Whether they interpret the scripture thusly in order justify what they feel they have to do, or they feel they have to do it because their scripture tells them is a more complex question (chicken v. egg--this time, it's personal).

Likewise, you are just presenting your (albeit very shortsighted) interpretation of Islamic scripture. Most Muslims believe that the Koran condones the murdering of pagans only, and even that the majority of Muslims ignore in their day-to-day life.

Just like how Christians don't necessarily stone adulterers to death anymore, Muslims don't necessarily kill non-believers anymore. Religious people pick and choose what they believe, so it doesn't matter what you think their scripture says. It only matters what THEY think their scripture says. (Granted some of them agree with your interpretation.)

Pablo wrote: "You need to explain to us all why Muhammad converted whole nations with the sword. Why he murdered people who disagreed with him."

Explain Moses' genocide of the Midianites and I'm sure Victoria will get back to you. Moses, after all, came first.

Pablo, sounds like you are trying to hide a little bit of your own religion's history in your attack. That's OK, explain away - we are here to listen (or read, rather).

As an Atheist and an outsider to religion, I must agree with Wanderer. Looking at the comments posted here, I have trouble figuring out which religion is the most "hateful." It looks like a lot of people here have inherent hatred towards something that they do not understand, thus, they try to trash Islam as much as they can by picking verses out of context.

I see people do the same thing to Christianity, especially the verses regarding beating women. For instance:

In the Bible's book of Deuteronomy it says that if a man marries a woman and then decides that he hates her, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they married. At that point her father must prove she was a virgin. (How is not explained.) If he can't, then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. (22:13-21)

In Exod. 21:7 we see that it is permissible to sell one's daughter (but apparently not one's son) into slavery.

Under God's direction, Moses' army kills all the adult males, but they mercifully just take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some women and children alive, he angrily says: "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." (31:1-54) Throughout Bible history God is said to demand that thousands, if not millions, of men, women and children be slaughtered. And they are.

The above examples were taken from some website, and it proves my point. It doesn't feel good to have verses from your religious text taken out of context, then have quite literal translations placed as the definitions. I would never claim the above examples as being true, but it shows an example of how ugly distortion is.

Rogan - not all acts of terrorism were done by Muslims. I have a pop quiz for you:

In 1985, Air India Flight 182 was blown up over the Atlantic by:
a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
b. Bill O'Reilly
c. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir
d. Indian Sikh extremists, in retaliation for the Indian Army's attack on the Golden Temple shrine in Amritsar

In 1986, who attempted to smuggle three pounds of explosives onto an El Al jetliner bound from London to Tel Aviv?
a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
b. Michael Smerconish
c. Bob Mould
d. A pregnant Irishwoman named Anne Murphy

In 1962, in the first-ever successful sabotage of a commercial jet, a Continental Airlines 707 was blown up with dynamite over Missouri by:
a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
b. Ann Coulter
c. Henry Rollins
d. Thomas Doty, a 34-year-old American passenger, as part of an insurance scam

In 1994, who nearly succeeding in skyjacking a DC-10 and crashing it into the Federal Express Corp. headquarters?
a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
b. Michelle Malkin
c. Charlie Rose
d. Auburn Calloway, an off-duty FedEx employee and resident of Memphis, Tenn.

In 1974, who stormed a Delta Air Lines DC-9 at Baltimore-Washington Airport, intending to crash it into the White House, and shot both pilots?
a. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
b. Joe Scarborough
c. Spalding Gray
d. Samuel Byck, an unemployed tire salesman from Philadelphia

The answer, in all cases, is D. And this does not include the Oklahoma City Bombings, the Olympic Park bombings, 1940's era Jewish terrorist groups (Stern Gang, etc.), the Columbine massacre, decades of fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics, as well as the problems in the Basque Region in Spain.

One final note - a lot of Christians dismiss verses in the Old Testament and state that they are based on old Jewish tribal laws and don't apply to today's society. I believe Islam should finally do the same about their book if they care about their image.

If nothing else, I think Professor Esposito's post has proven to be excellent flypaper for comments from supposedly tolerant Christians. As a Christian myself, I'm disgusted by the comments of the ignorant, blinkered people who claim to hold the same beliefs as I and I feel bad that too many Muslims have seen only this side of my faith. As someone who served in uniform in Afghanistan, I can tell you that most Muslims believe, like I do, that life and living it uprightly is the true goal of the believer.

Um, it can't be considered genocide because they are both Islamic? Are you that dense? They are two different religious groups! That is the very definition of genocide.

Dear Victoria,

Playing the victim does not prove that Islam is a religion of peace. You need to explain to us all why Muhammad converted whole nations with the sword. Why he murdered people who disagreed with him. You have to explain all the violence done at the hands of Muslims throughout history. You have to explain all the violence being done by Muslims today. You have to explain why I would be killed if I preached that Jesus is the Son of God in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq and any other Muslim country in the Middle East where they practice true Islam and not the fake sanitized version you believe.

Pablo

Ok, I am gonna say this for everyone who believes in the Bible and or Koran:

Don't believe everything you read. There. Simple and effective.

andrea - read your koran:
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
more?
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
more?
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
more?
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
more?
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
more?
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
more?
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

what is this crap about interpretaiton - when the koran orders its followers to kill those not islamic there is nothing to interpret. nothing at all. and its not that islamics think they are the only right religion, every religion does that. but islam is the only religion that demands it be allowed to spread islam with violence. this is even different than a christian force conversions as it is not required in the bible and is condemned and not even allowd today. want to leave a christian religion - no problem. want to quit islam - the penalty is death. the koran is the mein kampf of the islamics. like hitlers book - it is a plan for violent conquest and instructions concerning killing the enemy. just because someone calls it a religion does not make it so.
look at the koran and substitute the word hitler for allah and you have mein kampf in its tone and demands.
no religion has a right to kill anyone just because they are a different religion, or leave a religion that you belong to. no religion has a right to kill a person because they talk about their religion when you have different beliefs. no religion has the right to kill people who distrbute religious material different from someone elses personal beliefs. NO RELIGION BUT ISLAM.
do you want to know why darfur was declared a genocide? becasue that was a war where the islamics of the north wanted to kill all of the christians in the south, not the other way around. and here is something else, the current war is not genocide - it is between two islamic groups in the east and west fighting for control of the country. it cant be a genocide they are both islamic.

Aw SNAP! Pablo is back. Everybody run and hide. It's the "righteous one" himself!

Last time I checked, Jesus didn't kill people who didn't believe. Muhammad did. So how exactly is violence by Muslims a "distortion" of Islam? Seems pretty consistent to me.

Deb,

Are you kidding what exactly are you studying?

Pablo

Well, this can go on forever or we can all just start singing Bob Dylan's war protest song 'With God on our side'.

mr. esposito - people like you greedy, grabing money barons are the real danger of this country. money is not the solution or will bring you hapiness. dont sell yourself short!
islam is not a religion of peace! we know better!

I don't purport to know much about Islam, and I can't believe (well, I kind of can) that this is the question that was asked. It's incredibly loaded. We can't say "no" because of what the Quran says and because of the actions of extremists. We can't say "yes" because not all Muslims are extremists. Also, why is Islam being singled out? Every religion has violence in its past and its present. Maybe we should be asking "why".

Mavaddat wrote:

"The important question is not, "Is Islam a religion of violence?" but rather, "Do Muslims tend to be violent believers?""

But that's what the main question being asked is - "Is Islam a violent religion?"

My studies would lead me to answer no, it's not necessarily a violent religion, but it does tend to advocate acts of violence in certain circumstances which I cannot condone.

On May 20,2007, a Forum on Islam will be held in Evanston, Illinois. I am the sponsor of the Forum.
Speakers from WhyIslam will speak about aspects of Islamic life and then answer questions from the audience.
Free literature and copies of the Quran will be available.
After reading the comments, the importance of providing information with the purpose of educating is reinforced.
For further information, please contact me by e-mail at TedL04@peoplepc.com. Ted L. Loda
Evanston, Illinois

after spending many years fending off the aggressive attacks of people who seem to have a virulent hatred of islam. i am not suprised at this question.

the way the question itself is framed leaves little doubt that a judgment has already been made.

the only posture one can respond with to an offense is a defensive posture.

it is on th same level as the question.
"HAVE YOU STOPPED BEATING YOUR WIFE YET?"

any objection will be considered as an admission of guilt.
any reasoned logic will be denounced as being apologetic.

there is no way to answer a question that has already contained within it, the answer.

Jerry Hall:

You may be right, but there are a number of Christians in this and other countries that, on a daily basis, force their ideas onto others.

Heck, if it wasn't for that God fearing and loving president of ours, we wouldn't have 3,000 less soldiers than we did 4 years ago.

Rogan, obviously you were born yesterday...and anyone who believes in anything Ann Coulter says forfeits any and all credibility. True the Crusades couldn't be considered terrorism because it wasn't "convert or be killed" but "die so I can take your stuff". Abortion clinic bombings are terrorism. Chaining a gay man to a fence and beating him to death is terrorism. I don't understand why you can't see that it is foolish to say that all terrorists are Muslim. What about when Fred Phelps and his gang start bombing the offices of gay-rights organizations? Don't take your eyes off the problem to rubber stamp any group or you are setting yourself up for another disaster.

who has more hatred in heart? muslims or you folks? Please read the comments and judge for yourself!

I think all these protests that Islam is not a violent religion must be understood as merely suggesting that *there exists* an interpretation of Islam (or a picking and choosing of its scripture) such that the religion does not appear to be violent.

But who cares? Anything can be interpreted to mean anything if one is willing to do the proper intellectual gymnastics to achieve their desired conclusion. The important question is not, "Is Islam a religion of violence?" but rather, "Do Muslims tend to be violent believers?"

Regardless of what you think the answer is to the latter question, it is far more relevant than all this talk of "true" Islam, or the Idea of Islam, or as-it-exists-in-Plato's-heaven Islam, or Islam an sich. Such theoretical discussions mask the real motives of actual Muslims, and really do not advance our understanding of the issues at hand, which are far more complex than proper interpretation of scripture...

what koran are you reading, or are you just lying to people. moho hated cristians and jews and was not to happy about hindu's either. he considered them even lower than jews. he denied the divinity of jesus and said anyone who called person born of a woman god, should be killed. not only did he say dont have the above as friends, dont work with them, if they try to tell you about their religion and/or would not convert to islam, THEY SHOULD BE KILLED! oh, i forgot, holding them for ransom and cutting off limbs is also ok. if anyone wants to see a version of the koran you can log onto any university that you feel is valid, stay away from the kkk sites and others of that ilk, and read the koran in english. there are approved versions on the university sites. do a word search. its not that they think they have the only true religion, no problem, its not that they dont want to associate with others, no problem, its that part of the koran that COMMANDS KILLING THEM! and dont tell the bible does the same - it doesn't. the bible reports historical events, including bloody wars and battles. the bible does not command the murder of others as prospective demanded conduct for jews or chirstians. here are some quotes:
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
so the message is - until islam specifically removes these commands from its koran, islam cannot be trusted to do anything but the aforementioned.
oh, i forgot one. when the current pope quoted the 10th century pope who condemned the islamic command to spread the faith with the sword, what did islam do, they rioted to preserve their right to kill you if you will not convert. religion of peace? NOT!

Hello, Russell D.
While Islam preaches in much of the Quran the principle of subjugation of all to Sharia or Islamic law, even using violence when necessary, this is not the case for Christianity. In the New Testament, Jesus preaches forgiveness and the importance of grace. In fact, Christians are people who have accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their personal Lord and Savior. Christians know that they must forgive and not judge....that God alone will ultimately judge the living and the dead. Christians cannot damn anyone to hell. Only those people who choose not to accept the gift of grace and eternal life in Jesus Christ will face that particular Divine judgement. Christians do not push their beliefs on others. They are called to witness their new lives in Jesus Christ to others. To do so is an act of love because Christians want others to be saved from their sins, not an act of oppression like those who despise religion wish to protray it as.

Interestingly enough, Jesus is mentioned more often in the Quran than Mohammed is. In the Quran as in the Bible's Book of Revelations, it is Jesus who arrives at the end of days. But Christians know Jesus as the Son of God, the ultimate blood sacrifice who died on the cross for all of humanities' sins and the Prince of Peace who never took a human life, never sinned while on Earth and taught that to follow God's will, one must love God above all and to love one's neighbor as one's self. What is so "hateful" about that?

Pablo,

Although I vaguely agree with the conclusions of what you wrote, I think you make three mistakes in your post:

First, the historical basis of the change in Muhammad's attitude toward Jews (his attitude did not change toward Christians) was a result of their betraying him. Why one tribe's betraying a supposed messenger of God would cause that messenger to alter his opinion about the truth is very hard to say (couldn't God foresee that Muhammad would be betrayed? why didn't God just tell him the "truth" about Jews to begin with?).

Second, the verse you cited (Surah 9:5) when read in conjunction with the two preceding verses, as well as with 2:190-194, seems to relate to warfare *already in progress* with people who have become guilty of a breach of treaty obligations and of aggression.

Lastly, in Islamic parlance, the word Mushrikun refers to pagans and polytheists, not to "the People of the Book," who include Christians and Jews. So while the Qur'an frequently sanctions the killing of pagans, it is not so clear that it allows the same of Christians or Jews (at least, not *because* of their being Jews or Christians, but because they betray an oath, etc.)

Islam is not a violent religion, but that does not mean that Muslims, especially Middle Eastern Muslims, do not have beliefs that encourage the current level of Islamic violence.

Islam has divided the world into Believers and Infidels. They believe it’s an Us-versus-Them world. So far that is not much different than how many other religions view things. But in much of the Islamic world, people live with a belief that loyalty to other Muslims takes precedence over the moral teachings of the Koran. These non-violent Muslims would never report an act of violence by a Believer against an Infidel. And they would never support the extradition of a Muslim accused of murder or terrorism into the hands of Godless Infidels for trial or punishment.

If a non-violent Muslim turns his face so that he does not see the violence, then he is a part of the violence.

If a non-violent Muslim will not speak to report and condemn violence, then he is a part of the violence.

If a non-violent Muslim does not believe the murder of a non-believer is as much a crime against the teachings of the Koran as the murder of a man who calls himself a Muslim, then he is a part of the violence.

So long as the vast, non-violent majority of Muslims place Islamic loyalty above Islamic moral teaching, much of the world will continue to see Islam as a Violent Religion.

While I have not been a very devout reader when it comes to Islam, I have found that the religion has the same types of people as its followers, yet go about it in very different ways.

You've got the "regulars" as I like to call em, the ones who adhere to the religon and its beliefs, yet are friendly, cordial, and do not push their beliefs onto others. I would say that both sets of believers for the two religions are basically the same in that aspect.

Then there are the "wild cards". These are the ones who seem to think that they are always right, never faulter, and say it's our God's way or the highway. Yet this is where the two sets of followers differ. The "wild cards" of Christianity today do push beliefs onto others, yet they use guilt, bereavement, and damnation to threaten others, with the promise that they will sit beside Jesus in Heaven. The "wild cards" of Islam also push beliefs onto others. Yet they seem to adhere to the violence of the Koran as justification, and gladly use it to push thier agendas. And in the end, they are promised a multitude of virgins waiting for them in Heaven.

All I am saying is that there is good and bad in both religions. Cut people some slack and get over yourselves. Not every Muslim is gonna kill you because you don't believe, and not every Christian is gonna damn you to Hell because you don't believe.

Two sides of a coin, two sides of a coin.

The idea that there is a "true" Islam is akin to the idea that there is a "true" recipe for blue berry muffins.

Islam is whatever its followers interpret it to be. There are just as many different ways to interpret Islamic scripture as there are kinds of Islam. None of them is any "truer" than the next, although some are more selective in the passages they give importance or priority to than others.

Ultimately, any religion is going to be followed on the basis of picking and choosing what passages speak to the followers of that religion. Islam is no different from Christianity or Judaism in this respect. It just so happens that Muslims have particularly violent options to choose from when they read their holy scripture. But then again, the verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are none-the-prettier.

The problem is that the normally changing moral zeitgeist has been artificially stagnated in the Islamic world. People's natural moral sentiments (such as tending to want more openness to human sexuality) have been held back and placed under perverse strictures by a culture of paranoia toward all values associated with "Western liberalism." Ironic that the same paranoia is echoed by conservatives in the United States without their realizing that they thereby tacitly support the agenda of their Islamic fundamentalist counterparts.

John Esposito,
Your apologetics astound me.

But if they repent and fulfill their devotional obligations and pay the zakat [the charitable tax on Muslims], then let them go their way, for God is forgiving and kind”(9:5)

Zakat is only for Muslims - this means that the non-Muslims have to either convert to Islam or die.

9:29 is not peaceful - how can it be peaceful for a non-Muslim to pay the Jizyah and submit to Muslim subjugation?

How would you like it if you paid me Jizyah and submit to my will? You won't, I bet, so don't expect me to pay the Jizyah and submit to Muslim rule.

Do you think it fair and just to fight someone just because they are disbelievers who refuse to pay you Jizyah in submission?

Qasim

I hope someone can come up with better apologetics for the swords verses than this! As Rogan Josh has already pointed out, the greater context of these verses is not much more comforting: I won't be slaughtered if I fulfill my 'devotional obligations', pay a muslim tax and 'feel subdued'! As an atheist I think I'm still in trouble.

Why can't god instruct his devoted to write holy books that avoid all the swords, burnings and general intolerance? Is it to keep modern theologians in business as they squirm around trying to justify or nullify the numerous horrid moral instructions in the quran, bible and other 'holy' books?

Al-Shawkani in his book السيل الجرار (Alsaylu Jarar 4:518-519) says: “Islam is unanimous about fighting the unbelievers and forcing them to Islam or submitting and paying Jiziah (special tax paid only by Christians or Jews) or being killed. [The verses] about forgiving them are abrogated unanimously by the obligation of fighting in any case.”
Please note that I am not telling Muslims which verses to follow and which not. As I said earlier, I believe 100% in an individual’s right to choose his or her beliefs. However, what I am saying is that according to the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, these verses are null and void. They are contradicted by later verses, and in Islam it is the later verses which must be followed today.

What I write below does not come from hatred of Muslim people. I write it because it is the truth and truth must expose all that is false. I love all people because all people are made in the image of God. One needs to know the truth so that they can be set free from a lie. Therefore, I write this out of love for people who are ensnared by a lie.

Muhammad was nice to Christians and Jews at first and that is the source of the positive verses about the people of the book (Christians and Jews). When the Christians and Jews rejected his revelations as not from God he became violent towards them. Qur'an 9 the Jihad chapter abrogates all the nice verses about the people of the book. It is written in the Qur'an: "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things"(Qur'an 2:106)? One example of “abrogation is as follows”

“There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut {idolatry} and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower” (2:256).

This verse was done away by:

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Qur’an 9:5).

In other words repent or die by the hands of Muslims.

That is why there are so many anti-Christian verses and sayings in the Qur'an and in the Haddiths about Christians and Jews.

Pablo

Sorry Professor I am not swayed by your essay but maybe you will have an impact on Islamic fundamentalists some day. Maybe you will help bring Islamic and political thought in the Middle East into this century. We can hope but everthing still tells me there is more than just sweet poetry of peace and 'war verses' simply taken out of context in the Koran.

Islam is bent on the destruction of every worldview that does not line up with the rule of Islam and this flows directly from the words of the Qur’an and the example of the so-called prophet. The Qur'an teaches that true Islam will subjugate the whole world. We need to reject authentic Islam and its evil ideology. The true Muslims want to infiltrate every country at every level. They start out peaceful until they get a foothold. Just look at Asia Minor, North Africa, and the Middle East. All these places once had large numbers of Christians now many are war zones. If someone were to publicly suggest that Jesus is the Son of God in any of these places they would do so at the risk of their lives. Lebanon used to be the Paris of the Middle East and now it is a place where Christians have to fear for their lives. Look at what is happening in France now. The police are afraid to go into some neighborhoods because the true Muslims will come running out of their apartments and stone and fire bomb their police cars. Look at what is happening in England. The true Muslims preach openly on the streets that they are not citizens of the UK. They preach that true Islam is going to take over the world. Our political correctness has blinded us to the truth about the murderous prophet Muhammad and the teaching of the Qur'an. The true Muslims will set up Sharia Law once they get enough power in any country. The last place we need authentic Muslims is in our government. Opps, I guess that was not politically correct. Oh well, I do not care about political correctness. I care about my country. I care about all the people who are being butchered by true Muslims. Where is the Charles Martel of today?

I dedicate the telling of these truths to my brothers who were killed in the Marine Barracks in Lebanon by true Muslims. I have not forgotten their sacrifice.

Veritas vos Liberabit

When a great many active adherents of a religion are indiscriminate murderers (terrorists) and torturers (see Iraq) you have to ask, "What does their religion teach them?"

Rogan:

Pretty sure that Eric Rudolph and friends are not Muslim. But I get your drift.

Prof Eposito, you say that the "sword verses" are cited by critics to demonstrate the inherently violent nature of Islam and its scripture and further go on to give two examples. To quote you:

“When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush” (9:5)?

To this you say:
"(t)he full intent...is missed or distorted when quoted in isolation. For it is followed and qualified by: “But if they repent and fulfill their devotional obligations and pay the zakat [the charitable tax on Muslims], then let them go their way, for God is forgiving and kind”(9:5). The same is true of another often quoted verse: “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor hold the religion of truth [even if they are] of the People of the Book,” which is often cited without the line that follows, “Until they pay the tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (9:29)."

So, in effect, you say that muslims are allowed to kill people if they do not submit to Islam (READ: covert to Islam), prostrate themselves before muslims and pay a tax just for not being muslim. And IN SPITE OF ALL THIS, you say, islam is not inherently a violent religion? You state: "(Islam) neither supports nor requires illegitimate violence". You are not serious, are you?

The very statements you quote from the islamic scriptures point to the fact that muslims are asked to convert people to islam, failing which they are to exceute these "non-believers"!! Though I hate her, I have to agree with Ann Coulter on one account, "Though all muslims are not terrorists, all terrorists ARE muslims". Take a look around the world and you will see you yourself.