Turks Troubled by Pope's Refusal to Apologize

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Bahattin,
Sa'd ibn Muadh was not a Jew convert to Islam. He was a chief of the Banu Aus.

The Jews were not signatories of the Treaty of Medina - that is a latter invention from Ibn Ishaq. You won't find any mention of the Treaty of Medina in the thousands of hadeeths, saheeh or otherwise, only in Ibn Ishaq.

In fact, the hadeeths have the Jews denying they have any agreement with Muhammad. Who is this Muhammad? they said. We have no agreement with him. ==> proving that the Treaty of Medina was a lie made up by Ibn Ishaq to cover up the genocide of the Jews by Muhammad.

If you read the sira and the sahih hadiths, Muhammad tricked the Muslim allies of the Jews, the Banu Aus. He asked them if they would accept the judgement of one of their number. They accepted and then, and only then, he chose Sa'ad bin Muadh, knowing that Sa'ad had sworn revenge against the Jews for his wounds in the Battle of Badr.

---
Sa`d was shot by an arrow which severed the vein of his arm. The man who shot him, according to what `Asim b. `Umar b. Qatada told me, was Hibban b. Qays b. al-`Ariqa, one of B. `Amir b. Lu'ayy. When he hit him he said, "Take that from me, the son of al-`Ariqa." Sa`d said to him, "May God make your face sweat (`arraq) in hell. O God, if the war with Quraysh is to be prolonged spare me for it, for there is no people whom I want to fight more than those who insulted your apostle, called him a liar, and drove him out. O God, seeing that you have appointed war between us and them grant me martyrdom and do not let me die until I have seen my desire upon B. Qurayza."' [Sirat, page 459]
---

So Muhammad chose Sa'ad knowing full well Sa'ad's desire to revenge himself against the Qurayza, even though interestingly enough the Jews did not fight at Badr.

Abu Dawud has an interesting hadith (book 19, 2998) about how Muhammad forced a 'treaty' on the B. Qurayza (not the Treaty of Medina which doesn't exist). It seems that Muhammad had reason to believe that the B. Nadir Jews were being forced by the Meccans to ally themselves against him so he pre-empted this by marching to the B. Nadir and forced them to sign a peace treaty (favorable to him of course). The Nadir wanted to parlay but Muhammad refused and attacked them. However, the Nadir resisted. In frustration Muhammad retreated and took his anger out on the B. Qurayza (who had nothing whatsoever to do with this incident). With an army at their doorsteps the Qurayza were forced to capitulate and signed the treaty. The Muhammad returned with his army to the Nadir and succeeded in forcing them to sign the treaty.

This proves Muhammad's evil and aggressive intentions and how he coerced 'treaties' with his Jewish neighbors with violence and force. Such 'treaties' have no moral foundations since they were made under duress.

Besides, Deuteronomy 20:12-14 is God's command to the Jews - it doesn't apply to Jews but to only select enemies.

Secondly, you can't absolve yourself of genocide by taking on genocidal laws of your victims. Irrespective of whether your victims had a law on genocide, you should apply your own morality since you are judged by what you do. This is like the Americans sending the Nazis to the gas chamber just because the Nazis did the same to others.

But being a Muslim I presume you don't understand this in your attempt to whitewash Muhammad's genocide of the Jews. He was the top man. Standing by while the Jews were genocided is not what a moral person should do, especially if he is in the position to do otherwise.

Re:Alethia:"Howcan the media miss this truth? They are blinded by relativistic political correctness.
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).
Sincerely,
This is the 20th Century. It's time for 'real' religion. A religion based on true human intelligence.
This is the era of gene splicing, cloning,space flight, atomic power, etc.— intelligence!
It's time for mankind to have a 'modern' religion. A religion that will unite all who truly wish peace and harmony. It's time for a religion that will cross the bounds of all beliefs, and stop the separation of peoples.
Be sensible, the Christians will never convert Muslims (there are millions) & they think Christianity to be a foolish religion (The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said this). Christians aren't going to convert to Islam, etc.
The Jews don't believe in Christianity and Islam, feeling they're lacking certain things.
So what is the 'true religion?'
Contact me at essencegraphics2@aol.com and find out. Curious?
All the best!

Good work AbdulDesouzaNarayan !!!

The dhimmis (appeasers of islam) just dont get it, Allah is satan and his vices can be seen in his followers today.

Esposito why do you refuse to debate Ali Sina ?
http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

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hey george
got a question for you.
was not america "founded on the ruins of a once thriving" native american civilization?
thanks

hey george
got a question for you.
was not america "founded on the ruins of a once thriving" native american civilization?
thanks

hey george
got a question for you.
was not america "founded on the ruins of a once thriving" native american civilization?
thanks

Dear Readers
It is very sad over and again,the pope in his country visit read out a passage from the emperor manuela II, and thereby islam rose to street protest,burning embassies,killings.As for me it is a great threat to the world.I do hope and pray let this CULT and its founder be forever in the "HELL FIRE" till the end of time,until the last judgement day "muhadmmaed" the founder and destructor of this plannet will be already foretold.AS for me i do believe that the islamist pople do not go to "HELL FIRE" because they are misguided by the founder.Anyone who is able to read the koran there you will find all the truth,no need for any evidence. The founder beheaded more than 700-900 Jews of the medina, can any islamic scholers/immans/mullahas could deny this fact. The "TERROR DOGMA" the founder own word is very common in these days to all non-muslims. Yet they want to hide the truth, if one could closedly watch the errors and wrong presentaion and the "TWISTED HOLY BIBLE" in the koran shows that the founder of islam have had never read or heard about the "HOLY BIBLE" at all. Again in many ways islam founders ignorance are very variying, for example it mentioned only "CHRISTIANS" and "JEWS" as unbelivers, yet there exists very many other religion "HINDUS", needless to say the great and scientific errors in the koran?. We do not want any more proof to show to islam, once again another example in koran,the founder own word that "72 VIRGINS" waiting in paradisse,jokers, look at iraq jokers are killing very many in the name of islam and founder muhammaed. sunnis are to kill all the shiyas if they wnat to go to heaven,likewise sunnis are to be killed if shiyas want to get heaven, in common they have to kill all the non-muslim who is not submitting.
So finally i would say that the POPE in regensburg read out passages are to be re-published to this ignorant mass murderes in the name of allaha and muhammaed the great SATAN who lived in this plannet.The SUN and MOON god allah really clouting with a lot of blood.

Dear Alethia,

It is true that the men of Beni Kureyza tribe were murdered. Beni Kureyza broke their earlier written agreement with Muslims and stabbed them on their back during the siege of Medina by pagan Arabs. The Prophet (pbuh) left the decision regarding punishment to Sa'd bin Muaz, a convert to Islam from Judaism. Sa'd was a Jewish scholar and his punishment is compatible with the Old Testament.

We believe that Qoran was revealed in 23 years. When there was no verse about a certain subject, Muslims generally acted based on Old Testament. Another example is that adulterers were stoned death based on Torah. It is narrated that a person who committed adultery came to the Prophet and told him that he committed the sin. Prophet sent him back saying "Pray to the Lord so that you will be forgiven." However, the same person would come back two more times. Only after then, the Prophet ordered him to be stoned to death (again based on Old Testament)

In his last speech, addressing over a hunder thousand of his companions, Prophet Muhammad said "I entrust the minorities (the people of the Book, Jes and Christians) to you." The Prophet also said "Say there is no God but the God and you will find salvation. From this perspective, Jews, Muslims and Christians are brothers and sisters who believe in the same Lord.

May God bless you.

Bahattin

Muslims weren't the ones who converted people by the sword the crusaders were ask a historian or anyone from this panel. If Muslims were out to destroy the world then we as humanity would not exist. Believe it or not we are good citizens of the world and our religious leader have been condemning terrorism left and right but the American media does not seem to care,it is not news worthy. We've had candle light visuals, and peace walks with other religions, many, many Muslim leader have done open dialogues and yet it is not news worthy. Image how the rest of the world might see Americans when they see Jerry Springer or they see the news of drive by shootings or serial killer, or family members killing each other image if that is all they saw about the U.S. what would they think of us Americans. If your only source is the American Media, you will mostly hear the negative not enough positive.

sorry for the redundancy there sometimes im a monkey hitting buttons here...

I think it is safe to assume that ALLAH has the ability to "see over the water".
It amazes me that alot of christians don't know that Turkey is the place where the original congregations of the church were located. Or that the catholic church was codified in Constantinople(now Istanbul).

Also I'm proud to share that while the Spanish inquisitors were torturing and murdering jewish peoples under pain of coerced and forced conversions- that the Ottoman Empire offered sanctuary to them in Turkey, where they lived free to worship unmolested and protected, and flourished there reaching high positions in government and education opportunities and well, "the pursuit of happiness". peace

I think it is safe to assume that ALLAH has the ability to "see over the water".
It amazes me that alot of christians don't know that Turkey is the place where the original congregations of the church were located. Or that the catholic church was codified in Constantinople(now Istanbul).

Also I'm proud to share that while the Spanish inquisitors were torturing and murdering jewish peoples under pain of coerced and forced conversions- that the Ottoman Empire offered sanctuary to them in Turkey, where they lived free to worship unmolested and protected, and flourished there reaching high positions in government and education opportunities and well, "the pursuit of happiness". peace

looking back all the comments reveal why religions are in general the evil behind all crimes. it avoids people to see the simple facts and to assess the history a bit more objective. it is very stange, for example, to ask from turks to apologize for "occupying" the christian land. then, I wonder, will "you" - the one who expects the apology, apologize for the crimes that "you" have committed when you invaded the land of others. of course not! you have the divine right of claiming everything without any guilt.

and please, do not write immature things like "if a Christian were to convert someone at the point of the sword they would be contradicting the words of Jesus". sin or not, contradiction or not, they are simply practising wrong things for wrong reasons, not very different from islamic fundamentalists.

i happened to be a muslim since i was born in muslim land, and i accept it as part of my cultural heritage. not more than that. neither me, nor 99% of the turkish muslims would "kill" anyone to spread the religion.

by the way, j_dunn, back sea is north of turkey, the sea between turkey and arabic land is mediterranean - for your information. and being a turk, having a devout muslim father who regularly enjoys drinking "raki" (an extremely strong alcoholic beverage), i have never heard from anyone that the only reason that avoids turks to become "not as bad as" other "muslims" is that "allah can't see over the water". i guess one of your turkish acquaintance made a joke, and you take it serious. i can say the only reason is being "liberal", and not allowing to anyone to intervene between yourself and the god/allah or whatever you call it.

John Esposito attempts to take the Pope to task in writing that “How would the Pope feel if the Sheikh of Al-Azhar or a Grand Mufti publicly lectured him and Catholicism on their own serious problems such as pedophilia and the failures of many in both covering up or not responding adequately?”

Putting aside the fact that the reverse has not happened - the Holy Father has not publicly lectured the Sheikh of Al-Azhar or any Grand Mufti - it is interesting to examine what they have said on the record.

For example, Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, who previously served as mufti of Egypt until he was appointed by the government as Sheikh of Al Azhar, has led the call in Egypt for jihad against U.S. forces in Iraq.

At a press conference in 2003, Tantawi called on the Iraqi people to "continue its jihad in defense of religion...whether [by] martyrdom operations [i.e. suicide operations] or [by] any other means."

He encouraged volunteers from Muslim countries to go to Iraq "to support the jihad...because resistance to oppression is an Islamic obligation...." During a Friday sermon at Al Azhar the following day, Tantawi added: "The American aggression against Iraq is not acceptable to Islamic law.... The Iraqi people must defend itself...because it is a jihad that is authorized by Islamic law.... The gates of jihad are open until the Day of Judgment, and he who denies this is an infidel..."

Before returning to Egypt within a month of 9/11, the Al Azhar representative in the U.S. and then imam of the New York Islamic Center, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Gameia, stated that the Jews were behind 9/11 — not Osama bin Laden — and that the U.S.'s attack on Afghanistan would lead to "the end of America the oppressor." He explained that following the annihilation of America, "the future of the Muslims in the U.S. will be glorious."

When the U.S. launched its attack on the Taleban, the official spokesman of Al Azhar, Yahyah Ismail, responded by stating: "This war is a war against Muslims and Islam. Everyone must offer help to the mujahedeen brothers in Afghanistan." Sheikh Ali Abu Al-Hassan, head of Al Azhar's Religious Ruling Committee, added, "If the enemy sets foot on the lands of Islam, he must be fought...Islam urges us to set out on a jihad...this instance is an obligation for all Muslims...we are obliged to help them and to defend them as best we can from the cruelty of the American attacks. Islam has commanded us...to fight the jihad alongside them against the polytheists..."

Of course, I could go on piling up one revealing quote after another emanating from “the Sheikh of Al-Azhar” but what is more important is that if Mr. Esposito is trying to criticize the Pope by reference to Islamic clerics from Al-Azhar University he is making a poor choice.

And even poorer choice is to refer to “a Grand Mufti.” If the most serious thing that ANY Grand Mufti has made regarded pedophilia then that would be fine. But the actual record is far worse! And far more revealing.

For example, The Grand Mufti of Australia, Taj Al-Din Al-Hilali, by the way, graduated from Al-Azhar University, is notorious for his publicly support of terrorism.

In a February 13, 2004 sermon at the Al-Quds mosque while on a visit to Sidon, Lebanon, he called for Jihad against Israel.

Following a meeting with Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Al-Hilali said: "I blessed Hizbullah for liberating the prisoners and the bones of the Shahids and I praised it and its sacrifice. Hizbullah has become a model for all the Mujahideen in the world... Most of the Australian people do not support the policy of the Australian government, which has placed Hizbullah on the terror list out of submission to the U.S., and the Australian prime minister will pay the price for this in the next elections...."

Al-Hilali said on another occasion: "The media all over the world are controlled by Zionist fingers, particularly the Western media, and that includes Australia, in which the media are under Zionist hegemony."

Al-Hilali outrageous and revealing statements have garnered worldwide attention.

If Mr. Esposito wishes to criticize the Catholic Church in its treatment of pedophilic priests that is one thing, but at no time did the Church support pedophilia.

But consider the Australian Grand Mufti's most famous public lecture.

Grand Mufti Al-Hilali revealed a great deal when he publicly lectured his flock during his post-Ramadan sermon earlier this year in which he compared the rape of women with stray cats eating uncovered meat:

"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park, or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, then whose fault will it be, the cat's, or the uncovered meat's? The uncovered meat is the disaster. If the meat was covered the cats wouldn't roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won't get it."

Okay, let's go to Jerusalem's Grand Mufti.

Just last month, on October 15, The Media Line news agency conducted an exclusive interview with the newly appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the Palestinian Lands Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein. During the interview the mufti said he endorsed the phenomenon of the suicide bombers, as it was part of the Palestinian people's legitimate resistance.

But of course, it is not unusual for a Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to express such extremist views. Would Mr. Esposito care to refer the “Nazi” Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the 1940s, Hajj Amin Al-Husseini, who happened to be good friends with Hitler?

I would bet a dollar a donut he wouldn’t dare.

Finally, if the “Turks are troubled by the Pope's refusal to apologize” then before the Pope apologizes for merely speaking perhaps the Turks should apologize to the peoples they victimized over the centuries such as the Armenians, Greeks, etc.

And while the Turks are apologizing perhaps they might also return the Church of Holy Wisdom (Aghia Sofia) to their Orthodox Christian citizens. That might be a good start in making up for spreading Islam by the sword.

Indeed, the violent attack and seizure of Constantinople is Exhibit A in Islam’s spread by the sword.

So if there is any apologizing to be done the Turks have a lot more to apologize for. Not that they ever will apologize. A thief is always proud of his successful theft.

Dear Mr. Esposito,
A bit of poetry that your article reminded me of:

I am his Highness dog at Kew,
Praytell sir whose dog are you?

Please remember that the Crusades were hundreds of years ago--and also remember that much of the land fought over had been Christian before the Muslims forcibly converted people there. And what were the Muslims doing in Spain? After all, they had invaded centuries before and stayed there as conquerors.

BTW, hasn't the Catholic church apolgized (more than once) for its past wrongdoings, such as the Crusades and the forceable conversion of native peoples in the Americas?

The difference between the Pope pointing out the violent tendencies of Islam and the hypothetical Grand Mufti (or other such person) lecturing the Pope about pedophilia in the church is that the Catholic church recognizes these wrongdoings as exactly that. Muslims seem to miss the point: please apologize for invading Anatolia and Europe and North Africa. More to the point: allow people freedom of religion in Muslim-dominant countries.

Jesus said,

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep" (John 10:10-16).

Jesus is the truth there is no other way to God except through Him.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

Alethia

Dear A Muslim,

I pray that you will see the lie of Islam and believe in Jesus Christ the one who died on the cross and arose from the dead for you.

You still have not refuted what Muhammad did when he murdered the Jews of the Qurayza tribe. It does not matter that there are some peaceful verses in the Qur'an. Those verses were abrogated by Qur'an 9. It is a pure lie to say that Muhammad only fought those who attacked him. As for the Bible, There is no open ended command in the Bible for Believers to kill infidels. There were specific times in the Old Testament when God used His people as a rod of judgment. The Qur'an has an open ended command to slay infidels. Jesus never murdered anyone. Christians are to follow His example. Muhammad murdered many and true Muslims are to follow his example. George gave a great example above on this thread. It is as follows.

"It is very odd that we continue to have media exposure to what has been labeled as the "controversial" and "insulting" comments that the Pope made about Islam yet the media fails to report the historical context of the quote. The historical facts are very clear to any rational person who examines the spread of Islam. The Arab Muslim conquest in 638 A.D. of the southern provinces of the Christian Byzantine Empire resulted in the transformation of these formerly Christian regions into Islamic states. The pressure applied by the Muslim rulers on their Christian subjects was designed to encourage their adoption of Islam. The fact that the Turks are so vociferous in their anti-Pope demonstrations truly shows their ignorance about the land that their nation evolved from. What is now modern Turkey was the heartland of early Christianity and the Seven Churches of Asia (Ephesus,Smyrna,Pergamum,Thyatira,Sardis,Philadelphia,Laodicea)written about in the New Testament Book of Revelations were thriving Christian cities until the Turkish armies conquered and converted them to Islamic rule. Before the Turkish invasion of Anatolia in 1071 A.D. the land was populated by Greek and Armenian Christians whose ties to the land went back thousands of years. How Turkey came to be 99% Muslim in population is a sad story filled with oppression, genocide and expulsion perpetrated against the Christians of Anatolia by their Turkish rulers culminating in the destruction of Smyrna by Ataturk's nationalist forces in 1922 and the pogrom conducted against the Greeks of Istanbul in 1955. The sad truth is that modern Turkey is a nation founded on the ruins of a once thriving Christian civilization yet most Turks have been educated in a system that deliberately falsifies the historical record to white wash the dark past. The Pope was quoting the 2nd to the last Byzantine Emperor who saw the reality of Islamic rule since he was held as a captive by the Turks and he was disgusted enough to document his views for posterity."

Your response is predictable and in no way refutes the spread of Islam by the sword. That is what Osama Bin Laden is doing now. At least he is honest about the teachings of Muhammad.

Alethia

One positive outcome of the "Papal blunder" was atleast finally some Muslim clerics started a theological debate

http://www.unaoc.org/aoc.php?page=11&id=55

Muslims must not expect catholic leader to send flowers to them :). John Paul was a rare exception.

Islamic fanatics are normally treated in a militant way, a way they fully deserve with full cooperation from much of the Muslim governments across the world.

The debates among christians(both catholics and non catholics) and muslims can be carried further between theologians. Muslim clerics must not wait for another disparaging comment from another Benedict to start a debate. They should have started this long back when Bin ladenism was in its early childhood.

And those Jewish hate mongers who selectively choose verses from Koran out of context in the same way as Islamists do - why dont they appreciate relatively superior tolerance for their faith and race shown by many muslim emperors including the ottoman sultans who accepted much of the Jewish diaspora from Spain? May be it would be a good idea to invent a word for "Thanks" in Hebrew if that doesn't exists already

The issue here is Christian-Muslim dialogue: but we are having to endure the abuse of this form by clearly pro-Israel radicals and Arab haters who habitually HIJACK this form to force into our throats the boring usual standard sermon on the mountain about the Holocaust, Anti-Semitism and Jewish monopoly over suffering; by the way this cheap tactic is counter productive and continues to disgust all who have to hear on very occasion.

It's always an opportune time for such haters to bash Islam and Arabs at every turn and continue to spread lies and distortions about Islam by ready-to-post fabricated "lists of so called quaranic references" that have nothing to do with Islam.

Such Zionists have a clear objective: divert and obstruct the attention and the debate of constructive Christian-Muslim dialogue.

All we need to remember the Israeli barbaric, horrendous atrocities in Gaza and Lebanon.

Mean time, the Christian-Muslim dialogue will continue all the same and all reasonable and decent human beings will simply ignore cheap opportunistic propaganda.

I agree with Asim, a sincere apology from the Pope himself, and not from third parties, is the only way.

Prof. Espisito,

Your position is balanced, honest and its such positions that are so badly needed to help bridge the gap between Muslims and Christians; am absolutely confident that Muslims and Christians in their overwhelming majorities are peace loving and inclined to work hard to bridge the apparent gap between the two sides.

So far the pope's position has been evasive and vacillating on the question of apology: only regretting the pain his remarks inflicted on 1.5 billion Muslims but not apologizing for causing that pain and insult.

If he is really sincere about a Muslim-Christian dialogue HE needs to walk in the footsteps of Jesus and show some humility and aologize to Muslims in a Crystal Clear and Unequivocal fashion about three major issues:

1// His inexcusable and uncalled for insults in the now infamous lecture at Regensburg which caused untold pain, agony and insult for some 1.5 billion Muslim souls. His remarks were ill-advised as an academic, as the head of the largest Christian Church and as a head of a state;
2// about the horrors of the crusaders' war launched by the Catholic Church on Muslims and Muslim lands;
3// On the horrors of the Inquisition mainly imposed on Muslims in 1492 in Spain and the forced conversions of Muslims to Christianity and/or their forced exdous out of Spain.

A sincere apology for the above grievances will go a long way to help reconcile the two sides especially in the charged atmosphere post 9/11.
Nothing less will do.

MMACKIN, Bringing up the past is not being judgemental, just honest. The past is the past and no more. You can not re-write history, just remember the past fairly and honestly. Christians spoke out about Islam being a violent religion. Christians have shown the same in their own history. BTW I am neither Muslim nor Christian. I have no side in this other than equality for all. Respecting anothers faith brings repsect to one's own faith, while disrescpecting anothers faith brings disrespect to one's own faith. Cause and Effect, I believe.

All these comments are so interesting, and it is clear that as long as there are three major "slants" on religion, someone will always want to (or feel "led" to) convert the others - the reason why religion (as opposed to faith) will always be seen by many as fomenting not only error but mass murder. It really is sad. I have lived in Turkey for four years in the 60s, and I see a pathetic lack of understanding in this country for Turkey, which has risked and spent many of its lives assisting the West in its stupid little wars. I do not blame the Turks in the least for taking offense to comments from a supposed world leader who feels he can dish it out but is known by reputation not to be able to take it. Called "God's Rottweiler" before his rise to the papal throne, we now are beginning to see the truth of his background. Surely the Roman church knew exactly who they were raising to power and did it anyway. It is my feeling that these three religions are deliberately bringing about the apocalypse - George Bush himself has admitted his own desires in this regard. It is just sad to watch this play out.

To A Muslim:

"So that is all I ask of you people out there, to give us Muslims that benefit of the doubt. Extremists like to hijack relgion for their causes."

I, personally, would be more than happy to give Muslims a chance should they actually stand up and speak out about what these extremists are doing... However, I have yet to hear word one from any muslim leader anywhere in the world decrying ANY of the violence which these so called extremists have performed... Whether that be the stoning of a mentally retarded 20 year old girl who was forced into the sex trade by her mother (she had the mentality of an 8 year old), or the riots and violence spurred by the publication of caricatures of Allah. I don't seem to remember too many Christians starting riots and threatening to kill anyone over the various caricatures that have appeared over the years in magazines, TV, and newspapers.

But no, when your leaders start standing up against these "extremists", as you call them (without qualifiers like "but" or "however" mixed in with it), then perhaps I will be more open minded to your plight. But while you talk about how peacefull and wonderful Islam is (and it may be for you), there is an AWFUL lot of Islamic nations out there, and Islamic organizations proving otherwise.

And BTW the only reason Turkey isn't as bad as say Iraq or Afghanistan was under Saddam and the Taliban is because, to quote the citizens there, "Allah can't see over the water". So you can do whatever you want so long as there is water between you and Mecca. Yeah... that's re-affirming, to know it would be no better if just the silly thing called the Black Sea was gone.

The ignorance in these comments is unbelievable. When Christians kill they are going against the principals of Jesus, ok I believe that and accept that because I love and believe in Jesus as a Muslim. But your ignorance in Prophet Muhammed is truely heart breaking.

Muhammed peace be upon him, was an amazing, kind hearted, honest and loving man. ANYONE WHO KILLS INNOCENT IS GOING AGAINST THE TEACHING OF ISLAM AND THE PROPHET MUHAMMED!!!!!!!!!!!! To say other wise is a utter lie, out of ignorance or hate. Before any battle, the Prophet Muhammed told his soldiers not to harm, women, children, monks, animals or trees. The Prophet Muhammed was a head of state unlike Jesus and when under attack the Muslims had to defend themselves, but as it says in the Quran when they cease to attack you also stop. Islam only teaches self defense. God says in the Quran "If you take one innocent life it is as if you killed all of humanity and if you save one life it is as if you save all of humanity".

I've read so many verse from the bible that state killing and slaughtering and death and destruction. Why don't you read all the versions of the bible and see for your self what those crusaders, and slave drivers used to justify their acts. Who was Hitler, who were the Serbs who killed Muslims and fellow Croatian christians, who were the Irish extremists who terrorized the british and their fellow Irish Catholics, who was Timothy Mcvey I could go on and on. They all claimed to be Christians, but I do not believe they were true Christians, as I do not believe that Israelis that are murdering Palestinian Christians and Muslims to be true Jews. So that is all I ask of you people out there, to give us Muslims that benefit of the doubt. Extremists like to hijack relgion for their causes.

My analogy of what the media is doing, is when a camera gets a hold of ant, it can look like a giant ready to attack the world but we all know it is a tiny ant. That is what the media is doing to "Islamic extremists". Even though I do not believe Islam, terrorism and extremism can be put in the same sentence. Because a true Muslim would never terrorize. Don't pick and choose what you want to learn about Islam, if you want to really learn what Islam is about and calm your nerves go to a Mosque, sit with a true Muslim and ask them there beliefs you may be surprised to find we are good law abiding citizens and normal human beings trying to live a good descent life.

No doubt about it, God makes mistakes. God is everything imaginable except error proof. Now take Jericho for example, "kill all old and young alike. Kill every living thing." That was God speaking through His agent, pope equivalent, Joshua. The people of Jericho were not fit to live yet they were created by the same God that condemned them to death. Were the little children of Jericho sinners? http://www.hoax-buster.org/gov101

There's a moral. The crusades were justified. Muslims are God's more recent mistakes. Or is that the other way around in reverse. Christians are God's recent misque. Well, we'll just have to have the big battle to see which way is correct. Or, we could notice that God doesn't make mistakes. It's the devil that lurks about in the hearts of God's representatives that cause them to make the mistakes. And the little children will pay for those mistakes.

Thank you Mr. Esposito for your remarks. You really have cut to the heart of the matter.
What are the pope's intentions in this matter?
Without finger pointing and insults you have addressed this in a fair manner.
peace

Mr. Esposito,
Your hypothetical example is highly misleading and it grossly distorts the central theme of the Regensburg address: "How would the Pope feel if the Sheikh of Al-Azhar or a Grand Mufti publicly lectured him and Catholicism on their own serious problems such as pedophilia and the failures of many in both covering up or not responding adequately?" The pope wasn't criticizing a particular scandal or misdeed, but rather what he saw as a general tendency. If he'd done the former, then that would simply be insulting and the best reply would be no reply as it wouldn't merit a serious intellectual reply and pointing out the church's scandals would be fair (if not terribly productive). As a more general, and indeed, more thoughtful statement the pope's address wasn't on the level of mere insult, though it might well have insulted some people. If you want a proper hypothetical equivalent, then picture one criticizing the church for its emphasis on hierarchy, which leads to the arrogance of some of its leaders, and its unresponsiveness to its parishioners.

OOOPS -- that should have been "the Battle of Tours". Sorry.

Ann O.

One historical note. In 732 at the Battle of Lyons Charles Martel defeated the Muslim armies and prevented their conquest of France and Europe.

Does this justify the Crusades? No. But neither does it allow Muslims the right to claim that, that it is the barbarous Christians alone who are responsible for the Crusades.

But here is a more question point, I think. Can any one -- Christian or Muslim -- be held responsible for the sins of their ancestors? I think not. Only individuals who make choices are guilty.

ISTM that it is a gross mistake to talk of social units as if they were a true unit in which "collective guilt" can reside, and historical movements are *processes*, not the works of any one person. So to blame contemporary people for the faults and failings of their ancestors is unjust. And neither can we descendents claim their virues either!

We must try to look objectively at the *teachings* of Jesus and Muhammed, if we wish to speak meaningfully about "Christianity" or "Islam". If we look closely we shall find internal contradictions in the scriptures of both religions. The theological problem then becomes: what did Jesus and Muhammed *mean* when they said this or that? Did they mean everything *literally*? If so both Christians and Muslims are left with contradictory commands from their leaders.

This is why the literal interpretation of *both* their scriptures has inevitibly lead to conflicts within the religious communities themselves. Only if the fundamentalists on both sides can come to see that contradictions in their scriptures can't both be true will the animosity between the fundamentalist Christians and the fundamentalist Muslims be abolished.

Ann O.

Dear Pat,

Are you not judging Catholics by bringing up the Crusades and how bad they were? Of course we can all judge others. I don't like easy access to guns? What is my vote for gun control other than judging others?

I think the Pope was wrong for stating what his predecesors believed about Islam, and expect others to believe the Pope does not hold a similar view towards Islam. I think, Christians believe they have the right to judge other religions. No one holds that right over another. All Equal. Christianity has shown itself to be just as violent as Islam; Chistian Crusade's comes to mind. Dialogue begins with listening rather than talking. The Pope's actions will indicate his true intent of acceptance or rejection of another's faith regarding his visit to Turkey and Islam.

Dr. Esposito:

Thank you for your enlightened thoughts. It is alarming to me to read comments on this website that demonstrate the level of ignorance people have about Islam and Muslims. I appreciate your attempts to step outside of yourself and your own religion for years to help bridge understanding between the the different faiths, and particulartly Islam.

New Jersey's Quakers, more than 100 years before Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, prohibited owning another person and South Jersey passed laws prohibiting any concept of humans as chattels before the first day of the 19th Century.

Is this fact recognized by all Americans? In other words, white people in New Jersey and elsewhere prohibited slavery long before Lincoln and the Civil War.

Christian Protestantism did not exist during any of the crusades. Respondents, to the crusades, were heeding calls from Rome and Constantinople and the respondents gave obedience to seats found in those cities.

Does the Islamic world have an awareness that real and perceived offenses should have specific targets for redress? Maybe an awareness that Protestants were not involved?

The contemporary position, held by some in America, is that all states and all taxpayers owe descendants of American slaves a form of restitution - and this view does not consider the Quakers and abolitionists and their descendants.

A contemporary position, held by some around the world, is that all Christians owe Islam apologies for the Crusades and other offenses - and this view does not consider that Protestant Christians did not share in the bloodshed and in the things for which Rome has apologized.

Both Christians and Muslims have FAITH the creature in the ball of fire with which Moses made the deal was God. Both get their authority from that critter. There's more than a chance that thing in the fire was actually the Devil.

The Devil is a supernatural being too you know. His fondest hope is for chaos, turmoil, people disagreeing, fighting, killing each other, destroying each other's lives. What is going on in the world is symptomatic of the Devil and not God.

Has God sent us a sign telling us that was the Devil, Her enemy in the ball of fire. Is the varmit that Moses made the deal with, sold his soul so he could be somebody, a really important person like the pope and those big name Muslim ministers? http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Blessed are those who believe but have not seen. Stupid are those who have seen and yet still believe.

I agree: when Christians kill, they act against the principles of Jesus. When Jihadis kill, they act according to Mohammed's principles and example.

We often hear quoted 'there is no compulsion in religion', but words are cheap. We will be impressed when Christian workers in Saudi Arabia can have churches and practise their religion in the open.

Mr. Espisito,

Please do not overlook the fact that the Pope is Catholic and as the head of the Catholic Church his job is to help people get to heaven. And as a Catholic he believes that the Catholic Church is the only and surest way to heaven. Hence, he wishes, as all Catholics should wish, to convert the Muslims to the Catholic Church. We do not wish it by violence but we do wish it.

Facing our common future in itself is not the goal of the Catholic Church. Converting all nations to Christ and His Church is.

This may sound harsh but it is the motive of all the Popes actions and should not be left out of the discussion.

Have a good day.

alper:

Some may have but you miss one important fact. If a Christian were to convert someone at the point of the sword they would be contradicting the words of Jesus who said "turn the other cheek." When the Muslim murders he or she is following the example of Muhammad and living consistently with what the Qur'an teaches. The so-called moderates will deny this but they are either considered apostates by true Islam, are lying to gain an upper hand on the politically correct West, or they do not know the Qur'an and the history of thier own religion.

I am still waiting for someone to refute the words of Manuel II Paleologus.

Alethia

Why aren't the Pope's remarks being considered in combination with the reply?

38 leading Muslim religious scholars and leaders including Shaykh Ali Jumu‘ah (the Grand Mufti of Egypt), Shakyh Abdullah bin Bayyah (former Vice President of Mauritania, and leading religious scholar), and Shaykh Sa‘id Ramadan Al-Buti (from Syria), in addition to the Grand Muftis of Russia, Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo, Slovenia, Istanbul, Uzbekistan, and Oman, as well as leading figures from the Shi‘a community such as Ayatollah Muhammad Ali Taskhiri of Iran; also HRH Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal of Jordan Muslim scholars in the West such as Shaykh Hamza Yusuf from California, Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr of George Washington University in Washington, D.C., and Professor Tim Winter of the University of Cambridge signed a letter to the Pope that said:

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/online-analysis/open-letter-to-his-holiness-pope-benedict-xvi.html

…faith in the One God is not the property of any one religious community. According to Islamic belief, all the true prophets preached the same truth to different people at different times. The laws may be different, but the truth is unchanging.

They acknowledge the two great Commandments: ….”and the second commandment is like it: Thou shalt love they neighbour as thyself.” citing Mark 12:29-31 and Matthew 22:37-40

And they said that their prophet brought nothing new to the message from God, that the message from all three faiths is the same.

*************

It is a wonderful reply, in a true ecumenical spirit. And yet, the pope's remarks continue to be discussed without the reply, just like the question of Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus. It makes me wonder whether the reply will survive to be recorded by our historians at all. And that was the Pope's point. Once again, we have a society that has not yet proven capable of hearing the reply.

While sitting in a McDonald's restaurant one morning last week, I overheard an obviously chritian group next to me discussing the pressing political and religious issues of the day. One man offered his opinions on the unjustified violent nature of islamic middle east, and continued nonchalantly to offer his solution. Nuke em.

it is really interesting to omit that all religions have used swords to convert the "infidels", not just Islam. and it is also equally interesting to mention just the greek and armanian "christians" were living in anatolia before 1071 - not any other ethic groups (please someone look into the map and please realize that anatolia is not just the agean coast). so, i wonder, what happened to those who were living in anatolia even before the greeks were living there - summerians, hitites and others...they were helenized, right? after 1071 they were assimilated, not being "murdered". being turkish or being anatolian does not necessarily refer to having turkish "blood" in your veins. as it is emphasized in turkish constitution, whoever lives in turkey is considered as "turk" - it just does not refer to a specific ethnicity but being part of a nation; just as being an "american". so, please stop being arrogant and ignorant (or semi-ignorant), and be a bit more reasonable when you are making comments. there are millions of turks who really do not care the fundamentalists, but just live their own lives, loving their country and history, loving their neighbours. you do make generalisations, and through that, you help polarization of the world. such a shame.
and by the way, please remember that, when christians were slaughtering jews in spain, it was only ottomans (who were muslim) who opened their arms and hearts and land to hundreds of thousands of jewish immigrants, and saved them from cruel inquisition, and gave them chances to have a say in state policies by promoting them as bureaucrats. do you call this oppression?
and, i really do not see (and most turks do not as well) the reasoning behind criticism against the acts done during the independence war. your country is invaded, your minorities support invaders, what do you do? you fight with them (invaders), you deport them (allies of the invaders) to the countries where they actually contribute to the majority of the population. if a greek does not want to live with turks, send him to greece, and if an armenian does not want to live with turks and kills his neighbour, send him to armenia. is is extremely sad that we have lost so much diversity after the war, but turks have lost millions of their sons in many fronts, fighting with italians, greeks, british, french, russian, armenian, australian in their own land. and we turks are all grateful to the "nationalist" forces of ataturk who claimed back all the land in anatolia by fighting against invaders without having proper arms, and who established a secular state.

It is very odd that we continue to have media exposure to what has been labeled as the "controversial" and "insulting" comments that the Pope made about Islam yet the media fails to report the historical context of the quote. The historical facts are very clear to any rational person who examines the spread of Islam. The Arab Muslim conquest in 638 A.D. of the southern provinces of the Christian Byzantine Empire resulted in the transformation of these formerly Christian regions into Islamic states. The pressure applied by the Muslim rulers on their Christian subjects was designed to encourage their adoption of Islam. The fact that the Turks are so vociferous in their anti-Pope demonstrations truly shows their ignorance about the land that their nation evolved from. What is now modern Turkey was the heartland of early Christianity and the Seven Churches of Asia (Ephesus,Smyrna,Pergamum,Thyatira,Sardis,Philadelphia,Laodicea)written about in the New Testament Book of Revelations were thriving Christian cities until the Turkish armies conquered and converted them to Islamic rule. Before the Turkish invasion of Anatolia in 1071 A.D. the land was populated by Greek and Armenian christians whose ties to the land went back thousands of years. How Turkey came to be 99% Muslim in population is a sad story filled with oppression, genocide and expulsion perpetrated against the Christians of Anatolia by their Turkish rulers culminating in the destruction of Smyrna by Ataturk's nationalist forces in 1922 and the pogrom conducted against the Greeks of Istanbul in 1955. The sad truth is that modern Turkey is a nation founded on the ruins of a once thriving Christian civilization yet most Turks have been educated in a system that deliberately falsifies the historical record to white wash the dark past. The Pope was quoting the 2nd to the last Byzantine Emperor who saw the reality of Islamic rule since he was held as a captive by the Turks and he was disgusted enough to document his views for posterity.

The pope quoted Manuel II Paleologus who said:
“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread the sword by the faith he preached,”

I think that the pope should not back away from what he said. I am waiting for the Islamic world to refute what Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologus said instead of getting angry. It is true that Muhammad spread Islam through the sword. He cut off the heads of 600 men of the Jewish Qurayza tribe. A trusted Islamic source Sirat A, Rasul recorded Muhammad’s actions as follows:

“Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina. . . . Then the apostle (Muhammad) went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. . . . There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka’b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, “Will you never understand? Don’t you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!” This went on until the apostle made an end of them” (Ibid. p. 464.).

This coincides with the Qur’an as follows:

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off” (Qur’an 8:12). And:

“When, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful” (Qur’an 9:5).

Who are the infidels? Answer: Jews and Christians

“And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they” (Qur’an 9:30)!

“They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth ? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things” (Qur’an 5:17).

Murder of Jews is also encouraged in the Hadith. Consider this passage,

“On the Day of Judgment the Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them, and the stone and the tree will reveal the Jew who hides behind them – except for the gharqad tree.”

I do not know how anyone can read these quotes and not see that Islam is hostile to Christians and Jews. The way I see it the man Manuel II Paleologus whom the Pope was quoting was telling the truth. Our politically correct leaders and the media who do not know much about Islam keep telling us that Islam is a religion of peace. I do not see proof of this in the Qur’an, I do not see proof of this in the Hadith, and I do not see proof of this in the actions of the Muslim world. In fact, every place in which Muslims are strong in number I see hatred, war, and murder. How can the media miss this truth? They are blinded by relativistic political correctness.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6).

Sincerely,

Alethia

I have written before that I would ask the Pope if Christians can reason, as well as Islam? However, the reason for the question to each is not the same. I believe the Pope was justified in asking if Islam can reason. I am not Catholic, but they seemed to have learned from the Inquisition and Crusades that it was barbarism and tyranny. And yes, although self-induced, the Catholics to this day have definitive problems, yet the Priests are not fermenting hatred because of caricatures of Jesus in newspapers, calling for Jihads, or more incredibly, directing followers to kill other humans (other Muslims) of another tribe. The war of Gods in Iraq was a Christian Evangelical one, not from Rome. Although with those forces at Islam’s doorstep, the question’s timing seems odd. At which, again, I would have to ask if Christians could reason as well. I understand this may read as biased, however, I believe it to be the truth. The world must know that Islam can reason, that such actions of inhumanity meets no approval of the faith. That when met with it, it will not only resist these horrors, it will banish them. That it understands that we humans are at a point in history where we must learn to live together, or none of us will live at all. As a human, as a father, I refuse to believe the latter could be so.