The Real Issue is Violence, Not Sex

Schaeffz,

Added thinking about the Jesus-God relationship

(from Professor Crossan's book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

The Bible is an amazingly relevant teacher. It starts with the majestic Creator creating beauty. It shows mankind's one and only Sin, attempting to claim the "Knowledge of Good and Evil", which is reserved for the Creator alone. God then proceeds to lovingly attempt a million times over to reaffirm the beauty of Creation in the face of mankind's mistake that he knows good and evil, building governments, institutions, religions, relationships, based on "I'm Right, You're Wrong", bringing about every kind of hateful warful atrocity upon itself. And so we continue in 2008, in spite of God's descent to us in the form a the man Jesus who tried to physically touch us again with the Creator's Love. I disagree with Crossan. War is the final result of the root cause, rejecting Love for hate. The infinitely largest positive step would be to simply accept the homosexual as yet another wonderful creature of God, treating that creature with the Love God intended for us humans to share. Once any culture accepts every member equally in Love, that's when war ends within that culture. A minority President of the USA? What a wonderfully large step forward! A minority homosexual President? WOW! As John Lennon sung, "War is over, if you want it. War is over now!"

I both agree and disagree with the sentiments in this response to the question. Yes, there are bigger ills in the world, and we'd be better off if the passion that goes into opposing gay marriage went instead to opposing poverty or war.

But I disagree with the notion that this is somehow the wrong question to be on the right side of. So many of the ills in the world boil down to tribalism and hatred of "the other". In this sense, gay marriage IS part of the right question. The question is: are we going to continue to engage in prejudice and bigotry on the basis of factional politics? Are we going to deny basic human rights to people who do us no harm simply because we fear their differences? Or will we stand up against bigots and those who demonize whole classes of people?

Bruce the Realtor,

As per many Conservative Jews and their rabbis, Moses was a myth thereby ending your train reasoning.

And from answers.com:

Rabbi Akiba--

The early life of Akiba ben Joseph is enshrouded in legends, anecdotes, sayings, and numerous references in the Talmud. He was born in the vicinity of Lydda to a humble peasant family. Until well on in years, he was an illiterate shepherd employed by the wealthy Ben Kalba Sabua, whose daughter Rachel married Akiba on condition that he devote himself to learning. Her father opposed the match and banished Rachel from his home.

Akiba labored hard to earn a meager livelihood. When his child started school, Akiba accompanied him, and together they learned to read. Despite many discouragements, Akiba persevered in his studies and at the age of 40 entered the rabbinical academy of Johanan ben Zakkai, a Pharisaic teacher, at Yabneh (Jamnia). In the academy Akiba, himself a commoner, invariably championed the plebeian viewpoint rather than the patrician

Commentary in the Talmud makes CLEAR that especially The Laws of Moses can and will be 'reinterpreted in future times' and then applied to the issues of the generation in which this issue is arising.

The particular story involves Moses and God having a discussion one day where Moses notices Gold placing Coronets above certain words in the Torah and when Moses inquires from God, just what He is doing, God responds that 'someday, in the future, another will come along and his name will be Rabbi Akiva, and he will expound on the meanings of the words and verses so marked.

Moses ask God if He can see this and God grants his wish, whereupon Moses is transported in time to a lecture being delivered by Rabbi Akiva. To make matters more concise, Moses sits in the last row of the Torah students [where the brightest sit in the front row] and after the teaching a student ask 'but Rabbi [Akiva], how do you know these things to be true, to which Rabbi Akiva responds that 'these are the laws of Moses.

Moses returns to God and states, this Rabbi Akiva was so great a teacher, that he was proclaiming things in my name that I don't even know myself. Show me his reward.

God again opened the future and said to Moses -- LOOK and Moses saw the death of Rabbi Akiva by torture [from the Romans]-- his skin was being torn off and Moses responded -- but God, he was teaching such great Torah and this is his reward, to which God responded, 'be silent, for this has been ordained.'

NOW HOW GOD WAS ABLE TO DO THIS FOR MOSES may be perhaps best be answered by Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, or by a spiritual realization that 'time' as we understand it, is not Germaine to God's powers. Even today, the concept of parallel universes is beginning to be understood by those of science and yet it was long ago realized by spiritual mystics.

INASMUCH AS THE CONCEPT OF GAY MARRIAGE OR GAY UNIONS IS NOT ADDRESSED IN THE BIBLE [Sodom & Gomorrah were not about committed gay unions] then this is something best addressed from other precepts and if the greatest of these are love and forgiveness, there then appears to be a basis for gay unions and/or gay marriages.

Hey Farnaz. Thanks for bringing Yeats among us. My favourite poet.

Brilliant!

Onofrio:

Great post!

But to the fearful, I would say you won't be all alone in the world if you stop wishing to hobble gay people. All those barriers that keep you from your fellow humans could finally fall.

CCNL, CCNL, CCNL,

To each his own. At least you don't oppose gay marriage, and for that I'm grateful. Nevertheless, one could argue as have certain of your co-religionists that heterosexual sex is undesirable (or, "yucky"). I mean think about what goes where and what else is done in said locales amongst straight folk.

Crazy Jane Talks With The Bishop

I met the Bishop on the road
And much said he and I.
'Those breasts are flat and fallen now,
Those veins must soon be dry;
Live in a heavenly mansion,
Not in some foul sty.'

'Fair and foul are near of kin,
And fair needs foul,' I cried.
'My friends are gone, but that's a truth
Nor grave nor bed denied,
Learned in bodily lowliness
And in the heart's pride.

'A woman can be proud and stiff
When on love intent;
But Love has pitched his mansion in
The place of excrement;
For nothing can be sole or whole
That has not been rent.'

William Butler Yeats

The general population, rightly or wrongly, find gay sexual activies to be "yucky" and unusual and typically associate such activity with the spread of AIDS which is of course wrong . Said AIDS epidemic in the gay male community at the start of the AIDS crises will always remain unfortunately a stigma on the gay community.

What really galls the religious opponents of same-sex union is that their sacred texts are either a) morally redundant on some issues; b) not as simple as they've been led to believe. In either case, it's not just a matter of adjusting one's view, or adapting to adversity - it's the great soul-quake that levels millions of tiny internal citadels of certainty. One brick is nudged, and the whole structure totters. Eagerly awaited raptures may not be about to happen after all; the arid marriage you've martyred yourself to, the pastoral career you've staked your life on, the friendships you've broken out of zeal, the vital doubts you've smothered to death - all these and more bloom like mushroom clouds. You may just have to construct meaning all by your little lonesome, with no help from vast century-swaying traditions, salvation sagas, and prophetic trajectories. All this destroying of worlds because a boy and a boy, or a girl and a girl, set each other's hearts aflutter. Sheesh.

counterww- what farnaz2 wrote is right on target. Religious organizations in this country have to stay out of politics and understand that their morality is not an absolute, nor it is always correct. Your version of morality can differ greatly from other religious institutions-so while you're entitled to free speech, you're not entitled to legislate.

CCNL wrote:

"The biblical Adam and Eve were myths making their children by incest also mythical. Ditto for mythical Noah and his offspring by incest."

Yes, I agree that the Bible is a mythical text. From that perspective, I'm guessing that you, CCNL, have now concluded that gay marriage is okay (as is eating shell fish, etc.). In other words, it is a document of its time that should be interpreted in an historical context and implemented in a present day context.

Counterww writes:
"And what would you tax? They don't sell any product, and the money is GIVEN to them."

For starters, eliminate the charitable contribution tax break given to the donors. Then, tax the money as income. It is, after all, income. Anyone that has taken a highschool accounting class could tell you that.

Well, I am glad you are not the decider for those that have opinions about gay marriage that are religous, Farnaz.

People that are religious have the right, not only that, but the obligation to weigh in on subjects like this. As far as tax exempt status goes, initiatives are exempted from that rule.

EVERYONE has the right to use their own political capital in this country.

And what would you tax? They don't sell any product, and the money is GIVEN to them.

RELIGION IN THE WESTERN WORLD MAINLY FROM THE FALL OF ROME HAS USED SEX AS A MEANS OF CONTROL OF IT'S MEMBERS THROUGHT GUILT. ALWAYS ASK QUESTIONS AND KNOW YOUR HISTORY. IT IS ALWAYS GREAT TO HEAR JOHN CROSSAN ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL.

The biblical Adam and Eve were myths making their children by incest also mythical. Ditto for mythical Noah and his offspring by incest.

Crossan writes: "Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and Cain built a city, and named it Enoch after his son Enoch" (4:17)."

Why does the Bible condone incest, since there is only record of Adam and Eve, then Cain and Abel?

Even allowing for more children birthed by Eve, it would still be incest because there would be no unrelated uterus available.

So it seems that its OK to kill your brother (Cain was never punished, not even with erectile dysfunction)and then have incest with your dead brother's incestuous wife.

Maybe they had children with apes. In that case there would be no incest, but bestiality.

Don't disregard this question. I am certain that Crossan has had in depth seminary theological analysis of this "oops" in the Bible.

One man's lucanae is another man's religion.

Prof. Crossan -
A few years back, I gave the communion meditation at the congregation where I was doing my field education internship. I reflected on what the Resurrection meant in terms of Christ's triumph over oppression, including the oppression of violence. But, I also thought, as I was writing it the night before, that the lesbian couple in my congregation, who had just had a baby, would be back for Easter. I would be remiss in my job as a minister if I did not also call out the oppressions, the violence, of homophobia and heterosexism within the church and the wider society. When I stand with Christ against violence, I am also standing with my LGBT sisters and brothers.

Do I think that we liberals in the churches focus on homophobia and heterosexism to the detriment of other forms of violence? Yes, we do. I would agree with you that it is the wrong question for our time, but we cannot be any less firm in standing on the right side.

Dominic is one hell of a good name.

Good lord I like this guy.

The "yuckiness" of homosexual sexual activity does make one want to exclaim Faugh, Faugh, Faugh but hey there are many "Faugh, Faugh" things that go on 24/7 and in general bring no harm to anyone.

I mean, hey. I see *that* stuff on my TV, and I'm furious that Christians even see who I snuggle with or how to justify treating me unfairly in our comfy little lives over here *with* your devils and your sexual hangups. ...

Like it's my and my sweetie's fault if *you* Christians and the people *your* teach, *choose* to bring your devils, *choose* to be distracted, *choose* to figure it's OK spending your time calling me a 'baby-killer; while you *choose* to support the guys who love to watch this stuff we see in Zimbabwe happen and then moralize about it.

Goddess, Mother of birth, people.

Look at it.

No one but you said I was in the way of you doing something good. If you're done 'proving' why our 'Christian Nation' is too 'virtuous' for the likes of me to have a say.

Faugh.

You know, I just caught some pictures of the cholera epidemic in Zimbabwe.. Another thing Buschco and the Fundies have been insistently ignoring since it started brewing...

Came here thinking, "Surely, for *this* even the most self-superior Abrahamics will have something better to say than the usual."

Saying to myself, "Surely, my fellow humans will have *something* of depth to say before I start wanting to shriek down the Furies on recurring and insistent folly.

I came back.

I saw this:

"Gay Marriage, Another Devilish Distraction"

Say. That. To. My. Face. Sport.

Yes but was there even a wedding feast at Cana? Single attestation (John 2:1) judged not to be part of the history of the historical Jesus as per Professor Crossan at #349 http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf??

And as per

"Gerd Lüdemann

While Lüdemann [Jesus, 433ff] attributes the story to the Evangelist, he notes the following ancient parallels:

'When one struck the rock with the thyrsos, immediately a cool spring arose, and on striking the narthex on the ground, the god's sweet wine flowed out ' (Euripdes, The Maenads, 704-7). '... The priests bring three vessels to the count and set them down empty (viz. in a building) ... The next day ... they find the vessels filled with wine' (Pausanias, Description of Greece, VI 26, 1-2). However, in the Old Testament there are narratives about the transformation of water into some other matter; cf. Ex. 7.19-22 (Moses turns water into blood); Ex 15.23-25 and II Kings 2,19-22 (each time undrinkable water is transformed into drinkable water). Moreover, it should be noted that according to many Old Testament texts the time of salvation will be marked not least by an inexhaustible supply of wine (cf. e.g. Amos 9.13f; Hos. 2.24; Zech. 8.12; see also Mark 14.25)."

Gay "marriages" simply simplify and somewhat sanitize what are still "yucky" acts!!

Farnaz,

What heresy!!!

Eliminate the tax exempt status???

By golly, we might actually be able to pay off our national debt.

The question as posed is irrelevant. Those gay persons who are citizens of this country have the rights of citizenship, including the right to marry. If they are deprived of any of their rights, they are facing institutionalized discrimination.

The solution is simple. All gays wishing to marry must be allowed to do so in civil ceremonies.

Should religious institutions wish to decide whether they would like to have an additional ceremony, one to sanctify the marriage, or honor it in some way, they should be free to do so.

No institution of organized religion has the right to weigh politically in on this issue without violating its tax exempt status. If, as a nation, we wish to move morally forward, it is high time we enforced the rules for religious tax exemptions, or, as I strongly recommend, eliminate religious tax exemptions altogether.

While the issue of gay marriage may seem unimportant to those not facing discrimination in this domain, exceptionalism of this sort is never trivial to the victims. Moreover it represents a defacto endorsement of other kinds of harmful exclusions, even persecutions.

Indeed Christians time and time again prefer to talk about sex rather than other pressing subjects. In the past election, so many Christians named abortion the most pivotal issue of all. Thousands of deaths in wars and famine obviously was unimportant by comparison.