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Professor Crossan,

I love your work, as it makes the challenge and scandal of Jesus more real to me than almost anything else out there...However, I'd like to know how or in what way you are still surprised in your study of the historical Jesus and also in your Christian faith? I mean, the enigma of Jesus is that he always tends to show up in the place we "least expect" and consistently disrupts our commonplace assumptions about what it means to be a Christian (e.g. yr own work on the parables clearly demonstrates this...)

Do you find that if you think you have Him figured out and pinned down, you lose the passion of faith and your intimacy with Him? Do you experience a passion for Not-Knowing when it comes to Jesus that is always open to surprise, discovery and Mystery??

Thanks in advance,

Cameron

Terra,

It is the "talking" part of "pretty wingie talking thingie" that is essential to the religious fortune tellers/prophets/prophiteers.

In case you missed the history of it all:

And where did OT, NT, and Koranic scribes get their embellishing ideas? From the Hittites, Babylonians, Buddhists, Greeks, Macedonians and the Romans!!!!

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

And these same ancient and not so ancient folks mythicized about how to communicate with the gods. One way was via angels:

Joe Smith had his talking/writing Moroni.

Mohammed had his talking/writing Gabriel (this "tinker bell" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to angels/"tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Concerned,

You say there is nothing you can not see? No Angels. Why? because you have not seen one? Close you eyes...Did everything dissappear because you could not see it?

Some times to see, your eyes and mind has to be open to it. If you did not believe in your car keys would you see them?

terra

Jihadist,

Same old "wishy wash" responses as you did not mention Mohammed at all in your commentary.

To reiterate, Islam requires that you believe in angels. Without said belief, you would automatically negate your profiteer and his fortune telling since Gabriel as per Islam was the go-between God/Zeus/Mother Nature and Mohammed. So again do you believe in "pretty wingie talking thingies"???????????

Dear Jihadist,
I agree with you that "contented" is a much better term than "satisfied" once one has taken Jesus as norm and model for one's life. Who could ever be "satisfied" with one's life within that parameter? I would never have asked or used that term "satisfied" by myself but, within the question as put, I choose "satisfied" rather than "not satisfied." But your word "contented" is what I would say most accurately. Thank you for that.
Dom

Concerned

Discussions on faith in On Faith threads is always like five blind men and an elephant. Everyone got it partly right and partly wrong from their own readings, perspectives and experiences.

If Moses were to come down the mountain today, the two tablets he carried would be aspirins. Those who never learn from history are condemned to repeat it. You know who said that.

What is apparent, it is not Jesus, Paul, Smith et all who personally profitted from organized religion/church since they died. Neither Buddha profited from the unseemly practices of Theravada Buddhist monks in Thailand to charge lay Buddhists for fortune telling on lotteries etc. which is contrary to Buddha's teachings.

I am also an economist by training. I do "fortune telling" too, and it is called "economic forecasting" re economic growths of countries and markets.

The focus on "pretty/ugly wingy talking thingies" is a very cute distraction on the larger truths and realities of the human condition and history.

"Prophesy turned into history, rather than history remembered" is an interesting quote from Crossan.

Bernard Lewis "prophesized" on the end of the world. He was wrong on the date.

Samuel Huntington "prophesized" on the clash of civilizations. It did not happen as he predicted.

Neocons "prophesized" the invasion of Iraq will bring democracy, peace and prosperity to the Middle East. It did not happen the way they want.

You "prophesize" if the Al-Quran is revised, updated, deleted of passages, there will be peace on earth. It will not happen too as you opined.

Prophesy is also a reminder of man's incapacity to learn from history due to overconfidence, false certainties, unwillingness to see limits, and failures to admit mistakes.

The prophets were right to teach and focus on the poor and sick, the marginalized and the dispossed for the consequences man will have to face if they don't. HIV/AIDs and poverty wreck personal and communal human development in every way for example.

We are still faced with pestilence and poverty regardless of how beliefs and understanding of religion is revised. And faith give strength to those faced with pestilence and poverty to overcome such adversities.

Not "reason in faith", but realities on faith and prophesies in human existence and history.

Have a good work week, whatever your day job is.

Jihadist,

Jesus, Mohammed, Paul, Smith, Isaiah et al were not prophets. At best, they were fortune tellers for "profits" who hallucinated about visits from "pretty/ugly wingie talking thingies". Professor Crossan says this about the NT,
"prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered". (From his book, Who is Jesus?)

Prof. Crossan

Jesus as fiction or fact made an indelible impact on the history of the world and in the minds and beliefs of millions.

Jesus as fiction of movies, books and Broadway shows is or no concern to me as that is a western phenomena, perculiarity and quirk. Jesus as a Prophet and teacher matters to me.

One is content with ones life, but one is never satisfied with what one can and should do as one is only a mortal with a limited time and lifespan.

But one do take pleasure in what one has done and to anticipate what one is going to do.

Satisfactions are for those who sees absolute perfections in what they have done. Humans, after all, are neither infallible nor perfect, and mistakes and flaws are the norms, not the exception of the human character and behavior.

The "Anonymous" post of 9:07 regarding American athiests was mine.

John Connolly - My experience searching for the historical Jesus was similar, but I started out as a believer. (Maybe that's why I feel comfortable calling him "Jesus." He wasn't a close friend, but I did have a passing acquaintance with him.)

Adam,

"it's almost a dogma of a particular brand of atheists"

It's no such thing.

I'm a so-called "hard" atheist of long standing. I always assumed Christ (sorry, I just don't feel good referring to strangers by their first names) was historical. Years ago, when I first saw a book advertised offering to prove He never existed, I said, "Oh, come on."

But I've found out that searching for the historical Christ is like searching for psychic phenomena: the closer you get, the more He vanishes. There are vague stories that put him anywhere from 150 BCE to 33 CE, but no solid evidence that puts him anywhere at all. (Flavius Josephus? Faked. Tacitus? Vague. Seutonius? Really vague. Pliny the Younger? Not to the point. Philo? No mention. Dio Cassius? No mention.) Pretty soon, you give up and go with the evidence: He wasn't there.

Hello, Adam - please name the "American atheists" who, as you say, have "spilt so much ink and burnt so many neurones trying to deny the historical existence of a particular Jewish prophet/Messiah...."

To Professor Crossan,

I thank you and your fellow Jesus Seminarians for the work you have done to try to shed light on the historical Jesus. I am not a Christian but I consider your work extremely valuable for all of humanity, so that humanity can begin to separate fact from fiction.

Professor Crossan,

Thank you for your response to my post as "Anonymous". You are probably right and probably my definition of "fiction" is too broad.

I'd been thinking of a "fiction" as being any "made object", including a writing. Thus, I've considered a very accurate autobiography to be a "fiction". Technically true, perhaps, but a good autobiography can shed useful light on a life.

I'm sure the same thing is true of your "historical Jesus."

Thanks again for your reply.

Speed123,

I get the impression from your post above that you think I'm Jewish. I'm not. At times in my life I've been an emotional Zionist, as many gentiles, including Winston Churchill, have been.

I guess I confused you when I mentioned that I'd travelled to Israel and worked there fifty years ago.

The members of the kibbutz said I could take Christmas off from work. I guess they thought that since I wasn't Jewish I most probably was Christian, which I'm not. I declined and spent Christmas Day stacking animal feed bags. I did celebrate Chanukah though. Wonderful people on the kibbutz.

Concerned
I apologize if I've been badgering you with the same question on other threads, since you seem to have answered it here.

Dear Anonymous:
I do not think that the literal, historical, and fictional Jesuses are all "fictional." I think--with all difficulties admitted--that we can reconstruct the past historically and must do so over and over again.
If we cannot do that, then neither can we serve on juries, and neither can we live under law. History, if you allow a definition from my The Birth of Christianity "is the past as interactively reconstructed by the present through argued evidence in public discourse." History is always possible, always interactive, and always reconstruction. With best wishes,
Dominic

Speed123,

But as per the topic, are you satisfied with your life???

Professor Crossan and the other Jesus Seminarians and their books have made mine quite satisfactory since now I have a much better idea of who Jesus actually was. The embellishments have been deleted leaving only the reality of it all.

Speed123
What are you talking about? People get called anti-Christian bigots on this site all the time.
Personally I think my own Catholic Church is worth defending -- but not blindly -- as is the state of Israel -- also not blindly. If every critic of Catholicism was as well-informed as J.D. Crossan then we could have some really meaningful debate. It's hard to express in this context what works for me spiritually, because this format is so rife with willful misunderstanding. Still I have to say that the opportunity to receive the Eucharist (to eat Christ, if you will) up to seven times a week if I feel the need is one source of contentment for me...

Norrie, Norrie, Norrie

How is it that Jews can attack Christians and their beliefs on a constant basis and never by called anti-Christian bigots.

If Christians say one thing about Jews or Israel - someone screams anti-Semitism...

A double standard I never understood.

Sorry, the last post was mine.

Professor Crossan,

On reflection, would you not agree that all three visions of Jesus, the literal, the historical, and the fictional, are in fact all fictional?*

Best wishes.

*fiction = "An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented."

Hi John

What a strange turn of events, but quite so. I'm rather puzzled by the fictional Jesus and the mythical/non-existent Jesus myself.

The first puzzles me because I don't get why occultists and esotericists can't leave Jesus alone and have to appropriate him for their own spiritual pathways - most of the fictional Jesus writers are into alternative (fictional?) spiritualities.

The second really puzzles me because it's almost a dogma of a particular brand of atheists - an especially American atheism - which utterly bamboozles me why they've spilt so much ink and burnt so many neurones trying to deny the historical existence of a particular Jewish prophet/Messiah amongst so many others. If God doesn't exist - in whatever form - then why bother with the crusade to deny Jesus existed? Clearly a historical Jesus is too much for them, though the clearly political reasons for denying any historical trace of him militates against their general case against the literalist God.

And of course the atheists especially detest liberal theologians like yourself because, perhaps, while you've made peace with the faith tradition you grew-up in and out-grew, they very obviously haven't.