We Need a Lot of Christmas

Hello Bishop Chane and others -- have you heard that the Archbishop of Canterbury has said publicly that the three Kings are legend, that stars don't behave the way the star of Bethlehem supposedly did and that you don't have to believe in the virgin birth to sign up with the anglican church? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3076008.ece

I know this info is not news to you Bishop or to anyone with seminary training, but I can't help but think it will cause a stir among the people in the pews.

Here's another link to a story in the Australian press: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/three-wise-men-just-legend-archbishop/2007/12/20/1197740452480.html

Well, in that event, Lepi, let none say it's we who are the 'party-poopers.' :)

Oh, snap....! Umm.... Can we have a holiday, now?

:)

This is the kind of thing that makes the sadistic imaginings of some Christians about what I'd do if I were facing their God as the ruler of the universe, ....then to be 'judged' on all this little crap, I'd be like, 'Dude, I'm going through a transitional period right now, ...I just *died.* Again. whatever.' :)

/\ Oh, snap!

PP,
Actually, there is a reference to bringing trees inddors in the OT - the children of Israle are told not to do it because it's a Pagan custom...Jeremiah 10:2-4

Kind of like St. Patrick is credited with the 'miracle' of driving all the snakes out of Ireland. There were *never* any snakes in Ireland. Ireland went from iced-over to ocean-locked at the end of the Ice Age. No snakes to begin with. :)

Oh, but, btw, CCNL, no, not only does no 'Pumpkin God Samhain' (or *any God Samhain:* this is a name for the *time of year,* even in modern Irish,) exist, ....*Pumpkins* as we know them in contemporary America didn't exist in Ireland in ancient times. Any vegetable represented as such basically refers to a squash or gourd.

And since it got lost amid about twenty pages of JJ spam, I'm going to repost my own response to the Bishop, here, cause I'd like an answer:

Wait a minute:

"Last year he phoned me, ready to gas up a chain saw and march down to the Common to defoliate what, for the first time in the history of that town was called the town’s “holiday tree.”"

So, you're saying that your brother would rather vandalize the tree than not have it be overtly Christian?

What happened to Christmas, indeed.

Peace on earth.

December 17, 2007 7:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments

Posted on December 17, 2007 19:27
Paganplace:

Understand, 'Right Reverend,' that this holiday is, for my people, a time of hope and (in our case re-) emerging light, amid the darkest time of year, too.

Too many Christians, I think, destroy their own celebrations by that very idea that 'If it's not just ours, no one can have it!'

Someone has taught your brother and too many of your co-religionists to convert that desperate need you describe into *more war* and *exclusion and blame of others,* ...your neighbors: neighbors who just might be of the faiths that gave you the 'Christmas tree' in the first place. Or still others who see hope not in your religion, but in our common humanity and celebration.

If that were *my* brother, I would ask him, "Would you strip that tree that brings so much joy down with a chainsaw, simply because someone decided to acknowledge that it has to do with more than just your personal religion? How would you feel after you did that? How would the children, even?"

Is that what Christmas is supposed to be about to you, ...is that piety, or is that something else, that you'd tear down the very thing you claim to treasure, rather than share?

Wasn't even 'yours' in the first place. It's not in your Bible. It's part of our *common* heritage, Reverend.

That hardly reflects well on your savior.

None of this is relevant, CCNL, and, you're right, the 'Wiccans might be offended at Halloween' case is way overstated, along with the idea that it's actually some Wiccan conspiracy to get kids into Wicca or something, which is silly.

I mean, puh-lease, I know it's very difficult for some to imagine a religion that's not out to 'convert the world,' but we aren't. Just aren't. There's nothing in our religion which says so, nothing to do with ruling the world or controlling others. There just isn't.

Actually, that's one of our fundamental differences with 'Book-religions,' ...the very idea of religious conquest on any level is *nonsense* to us. Just nonsense.

There is *nothing* in our theology or belief which says we should be out to convert people, or rule people, or control people. It's *just not there.* Christians *project* this.

People hanging Witches in effigy while screaming about Harry Potter, or nailing nooses to our doors, or, say, coming and nailing our pets to doors on the basis we're supposed to be animal-sacrificers, (Huh?) ...that's more than a little over-the -top, though. That's hate-speech, usually involving defamation, meant to terrorize our community and people.

We do exist, we're real people of faith, but, no, it's not a conspiracy to take over when we try and participate in public life as equal Americans.

We're not even *interested* in your money and power. We're just here.

If we consider nativity scenes as just more fictional and/or embellished accounts about good people and myths (e.g. Santa Clause and his elves, Gabriel, Moroni et al), "do no harm to such scenes" or to the associated commentary. Even pagans have their fictional accounts to celebrate on their hallowed days of Halloween etc.

from: http://members.tripod.com/~TaraMiller/halloween.html

"Halloween: The Pagan Festival of Samhain

Paganism, and Druidry especially, recognise eight feasts durring the yearly cycle or the Eight Fold Year. These celebrations are based upon a deep and mysterious connection between our individual lives and the source of this planet’s life. Like any other religious ocassion, these Pagan holidays are marked by special observances.

The most popular festival, in ancient times as well as modern Pagan society, is Samhain or Samhuinn, (pronounced Sou’in) the Celtic new year.

Halloween Myths

1) The pumpkin God, Samhain ( pronounced Sam’hane) DOES NOT exist.

2) Pagans DO NOT sacrifice babies or animals on Halloween. The Wiccan Rede states "Do what thou wilst, but harm none."

3) Pagans DO NOT worship the Devil or Satan on Halloween.

4) PAGANS ARE NOT SATANISTS.

These myths have been perpetuated by people who have seen too many horror movies and the Christian idea of horrific and mythical forms of Satanism. "

And contemporary Wiccans note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

"Also, some Wiccans feel that the tradition is offensive to "real witches" for promoting stereotypical caricatures of "wicked witches".[45] However, other Neopagans, perhaps most of them, see it as a harmless holiday in which some of the old traditions are celebrated by the mainstream culture, albeit in a different manner."

Well, an elf caught him pouting that Santa hadn't given him the 82A1 "Anti-Secularist" that he wanted.

So, no Red Ryder model "Anti-Secularist's Window" BB gun either.

I think someone in the house didn't get their Red Rider BB gun.

XMAS

For heaven's sake, will someone please help Josev find his essay.

Mortal,
Why call your "education" into question with a statement of "beliefs"? Just curious.

Mark, thanks for explaining from where this virgin idea originated. Did you double check this with the Mormons?

E Fav, are you Josev pretending to be Mark?

Understand, 'Right Reverend,' that this holiday is for my people, a time of hope and (in our case re-) emerging light, amid the darkest time of year, too.

Too many Christians, I think, destroy their own celebrations by that very idea that 'If it's not just ours, no one can have it!'

Someone has taught your brother and too many of your co-religionists to convert that desperate need you describe into *more war* and *exclusion and blame of others,* ...your neighbors, neighbors who just might be of the faiths that gave you the 'Christmas tree' in the first place. Or still others see hope not in your religion, but in our common humanity and celebration.

If that were *my* brother, I would ask him, "Would you strip that tree that brings so much joy down, simply because someone decided to acknowledge that it has to do with more than just your personal religion? How would you feel after you did that? How would the children, even?"

Is that what Christmas is supposed to be about to you, ...is that piety, or is that something else, that you'd tear down the very thing you claim to treasure, rather than share?

Wasn't even 'yours' in the first place. It's not in your Bible. It's part of our *common* heritage, Reverend.

That hardly reflects well.

Wait a minute:

"Last year he phoned me, ready to gas up a chain saw and march down to the Common to defoliate what, for the first time in the history of that town was called the town’s “holiday tree.”"

So, you're saying that your brother would rather vandalize the tree than not have it be overtly Christian?

What happened to Christmas, indeed.

Peace on earth.

PS Roy and all: In case you've been asleep like Rip Van Winkle for the past 20 years you should know that the US economy teeters on the verge of DEPRESSION. Housing is already there.

"Baby boomers" who are planning to retire, move into the senior's complex and use the equity in their big family houses to pay for it are out in the cold just like the story of Jesus, as just a quick example of how tense things are. You don't notice the president telling people to substitute prayer for Santa.

Roy, "corporatists have hijacked" everything for commercial purposes. That's what an economy is all about, goods and services people want for whatever reason. Santa Claus, Christmas gifts and flags for the 4th of July are all the same, good for us.

Public property may not be used to celebrate the birth of the son of Lucifer. That's a bad idea? The founders didn't think so. Why are you trying to hide behind tradition when the tradition is against you? It's never been lawful to use government property for private commercial purposes like selling religion.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul says the big money goes to those leading the multitudes to hell and no one has any contradictory evidence. So just who is getting rich off Jesus and who is simply participating in the economy, actually giving something of value, merchandise in return for the money they take in. What do you give people in return for the money they give you besides a ticket to hell?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot

Mortal:"I am a 21st Century educated man, and believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus."

There are a lot like you, too and I bet if you talked to Bishop Shane, he would do nothing to disabuse you of that notion, even though he doesn't believe it himself.

I understand the physical impossibility/miracle explanation too. I learned it in Sunday school and used it when it came up (rarely) until I actually started to think about it. Same sort of thing with the trinity. I do agree with one thing you said: "the entire Christmas story makes no sense...."

I know I'm taking it out of context. It's not really what you meant. The virgin birth story is way out of context too - it was added to make Jesus special - that sort of thing was commonly done with hero figures way back then.

I suggest you read the essay by borg and crossan featured on this forum right now ("the hopes and fears of all the years")

Dear Mortal -

I don't mean to speak for E Fav, but his point is that the entire virgin birth dogma is based on a mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew word mistranslated as "virgin" actually means "young woman," and the scripture in question was not by any stretch of the imagination of a prophetic nature but was a story about King Ahaz.

FYI - the Hebrew word used in 7:14 is "almah," which means young woman. The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah," and it doesn't appear in Isaiah 7:14.

Another interesting point about the virgin birth is that of the Immaculate Conception, a belief that is unique to the RCC:

"The Immaculate Conception:

This is a mainly Roman Catholic doctrine. It is not directly related to the virgin conception/birth, but is often confused with it. Most people seem to believe that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception declares that Jesus was without original sin when he was conceived circa 6 BCE by Mary and the Holy Spirit. In fact, it is actually the belief that about 20 BCE, when Mary herself was conceived, she was without original sin.

It was only in modern times that scientists determined that both the woman and man contributed genetic information to the production of offspring. In ancient times, the man was regarded as being totally responsible for the startup of pregnancy. The only role of the woman was to nurture the growing embryo, and later the fetus. A good analogy is the act of planting a seed in earth. The woman's role was similar to that of the earth. The soil has no role other than furnishing nutrients to the seed and later to the plant.

When the woman's role in conception was determined by medical scientists, the Roman Catholic Church faced a problem. For the first time, Mary was seen to play a partial role in Jesus' conception. Her contribution would have passed original sin onto Jesus -- an intolerable arrangement because the Church taught that Jesus was without sin at birth and during his life on earth. It was necessary to have Mary free of original sin. That means that both Mary's and Jesus' conceptions must have been miraculous. The concept of the immaculate conception, that Mary was conceived without sin circa 20 BCE, gained support in the church.

It is now a required belief for Roman Catholics. In 1854, Pope Pius IX proclaimed in his Bull Ineffabilis that:

"...We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful." 1

This is not a teaching of the Eastern Orthodox churches 2 or of the Anglican Communion. To our knowledge, no Protestant denomination teaches this." (here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b0.htm )

Merry Xmas!

It seems to me that, regardless of the faith traditions of our ancestors, many contemporary Americans worship money and celebrity. And the Pagans get labeled as idolitors!

Stores, malls and even municipalities put up decorations earlier every year in order to drum up business, to remind people that gifting is expected and get them in the mood to shop early and often. But as a person who was raised in an observant Jewish household, you can try all you want to call them 'holiday trees' but I know exactly what holiday is being referenced. As a practicing Pagan I could try to reclaim it as a Yule tradition, but doubt I would get too far.

I agree that with so much negative news we all need a larger helping of comforting this year. I do not need or want that helping to be Christmas flavored. But the aspects of Christmas that provide for true nurturing are also present in my holiday. I do not need gifts, but will accept any I do get with grace (moreso if they are eco-friendly). I will be spending the Solstice with my family, thinking of the blessings I have received this past year and planning my personal choices to do what I can to ensure that the next year is as bountiful.

Isn't that what any of our holidays is really about?

To E Favorite:

I am a 21st Century educated man, and believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus. OF COURSE such a thing is "a physical impossibility" - if it were not, it would not be a miracle. In fact, the entire Christmas story makes no sense without the Virgin Birth - otherwise, Christ would not be the Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

By the way, the problem with the way Christmas is being celebrated nowadays has nothing to do with secularists, atheists, or anybody else - the problem is Christians themselves commercializing the holiday out of any meaning whatsoever. We have no business criticizing how anyone else behaves during the Christmas season when we ourselves set such a wretched example.

Yes, we Americans have made horrible messes abroad and at home.

The Creator God made horrible messes in the Universe and on Earth.

We're merely following His example.

So what's to celebrate about the birth of His Son?

Nothing.

Bishop Chane - what is this miracle of the birth of Jesus that you mention?

That he was born of a virgin? You don’t really think that do you, Bishop? You’re a 21st century educated man. You’ve studied science and biblical history, so you know both that’s it’s a physical impossibility and that the whole story of Jesus’ birth is lifted from earlier pagan myths and not part of the earliest New Testament writings (Mark and Paul). Maybe in your role as Bishop you don’t want to specifically point out that you know virgins births are not possible and that you learned all about the mythic precedents of virgin birth stories in divinity school, but I think you could at least not imply, through your phrase “a miracle, the birth of Jesus” that you yourself believe it. Even though you (cleverly, I think) avoid the term virgin birth, you know very well that people take it that way. It is, after all, an essential element of the Christian faith and a part of the written creed of your church.

If you had just left that off, it’s doubtful that anyone would notice and you could be on the side, at least tacitly, of not perpetuating myths and falsehoods.

I think the future success of your church depends on such candor and I’d like to see your church succeed.

I agree, corporatists have hijacked Christmas for monetary gain. People have Christmas fatigue. As for the problems of the world, there have always been problems like war, political corruption and depression. The abandoning of Christmas is a new phenomenon. I suspect it is a backlash against Christian extremist attempts to hijack their religion and our government. Those of us who are just as afraid of these extremists as the Muslim extremists rebel against any attempt to "Christianize" our Nation. Traditional Christmas decorations in the town square that were no problem is the past have become polarizing battle flags some think futher threaten their religioous freedoms.

Poor Jesus, Happy Birthday.