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I love how Einstein proved that there is a
heaven.
When he came up with e=mc2 he based the whole
thing on what he know about God.
He was Jewish you know.

He proved that time is just a physical property.
You always hear of people changing the time
constant "C" which is the spend of light.
But that is only 1/2 the equation.
The other is mass "m" your body and it's easy to
effect that you just die.
This will do the same to the equation as trailing
the spend of light, or better yet it will not
exist = 0.

Neat hu?
I love how physics supports intelligent design.

And how it disproves evolution.
Did you know every time to take out the garbage
or clean your room that your disproving
evolution?
Ya if if I was to believe in evolution I must
also must believe that the laws of nature can be
overcome naturally.

One of the most basic laws are the Laws or
thermal dynamics the fist law has to be over come
for the Big Bang to happen.
The second law also, which naturally is making
everything garbage.

You most likely noticed!
I can accelerates that law lol.

If I was to believe in evolution I must also
believe that an explosion can create order
naturally.

See this is one of many reasons I don't think I
have enough faith to believe in Evolution.
And I have to command anyone that does in having
more faith then I could ever have.
And its truly bind faith!

Even Darwin couldn't fathom the eye ball, in his
book, and what is the eyeball to the DNA?

The DNA is just a information system, which
always implies intelligence, and it's nothing
compared to the process of life!

The more I look into it the more I come to that
conclusion.

Then again I practice intelligent design all day,
so my whole life is based around creationism.
So I can't deny my existence!

What do you think?

ChrisTopher

Hmm... well if our energy continues, why when one part of us dies we no longer can "feel it" the energy simply disappears...? I have not lost a limb but i've lost some nerve functions before from surgery and i did not feel any energy release or a piece of who i am converted into some other form of the cosmos.

With all due respect your reverend you are clearly campartmentalising scientific theory which you evidently know little about, with your indoctrinated religious beliefs in the judeo-christian God, which there is not a shred of evidence for. Why the God of the bible? Why not zeus? why not the flying spaghetti monster?

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A lot of people here remind me of that Sufi story about a man who had lost a key (or something). Someone asked him what he was looking for and I think he may have answered something like "outside the house". The qestioner then asked him why was it he was looking 'inside', if he had lost it 'outside'. He responded: Oh, because there is more light here.

..................................

So people look for the unknown God where they are accustomed to, or whereever their comfort zone is. Yet God is knowable, and Jesus reveals who he is in the eucharist.

...........................

As for Father Cooper's statement about the indestructability of energy (only mutability), perhaps he is suggesting, there is no escape, and thus every ´thing´ ends up some ´where´. So everything does make a difference, and it is not small and insignificant.

No force is used, yet invitations have been extended to many.

Hello Maurie Beck

I'm back for a bit today as the French blog I was at are talking about the US, 4th July, Lafayette etc. Reminded me of Americans here, including you.

People taking opposing sides on any issue, including whether they are pro or anti Zionism is always good. As in all issues where one take a stance for or against, including God or no God, creationism vs evolution, it does weed out bad premises and arguments by both sides eventually.

Einstein is quite an enigma with regard to his personal beliefs, was he not? But what he believed in makes perfect sense to me. No one can truly know the nature of God or what God look like. It remains speculations until we determined the what and the how life really begins and end in the universe.

Einstein and scientists are people I can understand as they pursue knowledge and investigation of nature, the process and origin of life, the heavens etc. It may be my own belief that welcomes science as a mechanism to understand the mysteries and process of creation/evolution of life here on earth and in the universe. Scientists are the best seekers of truths on the nature of man, the heavens/cosmos and the earth/planets.

As I am also partial to works by philosophers and religious thinkers/theologians, thanks for telling me about "Betraying Spinoza: the renegade Jew who gave us modernity" by Rebecca Goldstein and "The courtier and the heretic: Leibniz, Spinoza, and the fate of God in the modern world" by Matthew Stewart. I can't find them in the bookshops of Kuala Lumpur, full of books by Noam Chomsky and Dan Brown it would seem, so ordered them through Amazon. I sleep an average 4 - 5 hours a night. I will always have time for anything I really want to do.

By the way, is there not a song called "Don't Go down to Reno" for whatever reason? And I have seen Godfather II too. Been to Vegas, but will certainly consider going to Reno to sin and sin some more in gambling as I have in the markets.

Best regards as always
and Happy July 4th.

J

I believe nutrinos are a 'near' virtual reality in that they don't come in contact with other particles at all. There is by now a vast variety of particles hypothesized to exist but this is why quarks were invented...ergo, all particles are quarks in disguise. On the other hand, as far as irreducible entities go, it all depends on whether you're a particle physicist or a string theorist, or if a particle physicist, a big believer in Heisenberg's Uncertaintly Principle -not being able to know both the location and momentum of an electron at the same moment in time. Particle/wave duality is another mystery (the electron is a wave form until observed, at which time it morphs into a particle). Additionally, particle physicists these days kind of tend to ignore Bell's Theorum and the reality of non-local relationships between 'entangled' electrons, which just adds another layer of 'uncertainty'(electrons are found to have mirror-image properties in every way once entangled, regardless of distances). All of these loose ends so to speak are not comforting to hardcore materialists (physicists though they may be) because to imagine that all is 'mere appearance' as maintained in Buddhism is simply unacceptable in a world that seems to be 'solid as a rock'. Nothing is permanent, everything is change, and everything is eterally connected via the same ineffable self-existing nature, without beginning or end .... what a pain!!

String theorists replace all particles with infinitely minute vibrating strings (all identical but with different vibrational rates - can be singles or combinations). Brian Greene is one of the big proponents of string theory...and which is unfortunately not subject to research testing either now or in the foreseeable future.

So what, after all, is really real if our quantum components are seemingly 'virtual'?? Buddhism make the point that if things didn't change ever so subtley at the quantum level from instant to instant change wouldn't be possible at all, and nothing would even appear to exist.

To make matters worse Hui-neng, the 6th and last Buddhist patriarch stated (after a profound enlightenment experience )...'from the first,
not a thing is'......... say what??

Better than "energy" would be "information".

I believe this is the correct SciAm article

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000AF072-4891-1F0A-97AE80A84189EEDF

it argues that information is never destroyed. In may become non-localized but it never disappears.

Hi BGONE

Neutrinos are the smallest "irreducible" bits of matter. But that depends on what you mean by irreducible. Photons are "energy" and thus not "matter" - though neither term is especially accurate.

As for the Rector's physics - an inaccurate, but pretty common pseudo-argument for "soul" as separate from the living body. But if you look into the meanings given to the concept by the ancients - and they had many - there's no modern day physical analogy. But information theoretic concepts like "program" might be useful. Thus the "soul" is the program being run by a living body. If it could be captured and transferred into another instantiation then it would survive the end of that first instantiation body.

But that doesn't mean it has to be resurrected as flesh/blood/bone/DNA just like current human bodies. Depending on the level of fidelity required a "resurrection body" might exist in a huge range of media - after all computers can be made from beer-cans and string. Perhaps the after-life "soma" ("spirit body") is composed of Dark Matter? We don't currently know.

Hi DW

People being actively tormented in Hell/Hades is actually first depicted in the very early Christian document "The Revelation of Peter". Your ideas on "soul sleep" or "annihilationism" derive from 17th Century heretical movements - like the Socinians (Polish Brethren) and latter-day Arians like Isaac Newton.

The first Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, believed in the immortality of the soul and its everlasting existence in either torment or heavenly bliss. He claims he got the doctrine from people who had known the Apostles. The only people who denied the immortality of the soul in First Century Judaism were the Sadducees.

So just which Bible commentary did you get your doctrines from? Can you trust it since it ignores the very earliest interpretations of the Bible and Apostolic doctrine?

Gee Terry, now all we need do is find an important man who is willing to admit he doesn't know. I think therefore I am but the reality of everything else is questionable.

Actually photons are the smallest, irreducible particles of matter aren't they?

Couldnt agree more. The current view was born more out of the Renissance, middle ages, etc etc than biblical fact.

The bible only speaks of hell (translated from Greek or Hebrew) as a grave, big cave down in the earth, etc. There is, though, reference to a consuming fire (grk gahenna) what will consume (aka lake of fire...after final great white throne judgement - following millenial reign of Christ on earth)..not with red horned beings with pitchforks or turning people on a spit. All myth with no biblical basis. Just as going to heaven is a widespread deception. Scriptures speaks of those who sleep until the ressurrections. Yes, two. Very clear scripture states no man has ascended to heaven. Gods kingdom will be set up on this earth, with a new heaven and earth following the millenial reign of Christ.

The underlying scientific question here is simple enough - is there any fundamental difference in essence (or nature if you prefer) between quantum reality and macro-reality? Since physics maintains that the atom and it's constituent parts are the foundation for all in the phenomenal universe, the reality of the atom must be proven to exist independently as the smallest irreducable entity - and it has not been other than mathematically, nor have any of it's associated particles (electrons, protons, neutrons - apparently the nucleus can be further reduced to 6 quarks)...this all proves out mathematically without fail, but is mighty elusive otherwise. Is this a self-created concept or 'objective' reality? Buddhism might make that case that the tangible universe is as real or as unreal as it's most irreducible part........so far we still have a real mystery on our hands!!

As far as the continuation of consciousness after the death of the body - sure, why not??

Before you answer keep in mind there is no universally accepted explanation for the dependent or independent existence of consciousness either......

The most likely case is Einstein probably did first thing first, usual for the successful thinker and never got past the first commandment. The only way to avoid "strange Gods" is to absolutely identify "real God" that is impossible to do because of the "almighty" specification.

Folks are unwilling to admit their God is less than almighty which is a violation of the first commandment. It's a catch 22 kind of thing. When dealing with the specs on things that cannot be shown to exist or not exist there is the certainty of misidentification and thus the certainty of strange God.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is simply an interpretation of the Bible that shows the misidentification of God. The Bible has the very damning feature of giving God particulars like, ball of fire, by day in the clouds and at night only glows, (sun, moon) the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling, (sun shining through the open top) came with the Israelites during their epic journey, (ancients assumed that people at a distance could not see the sun because it was a one to two foot diameter ball a few hundred feet up in the sky, a bird) and many more specifications that show something less than an almighty God. God yes. Almighty no.

Thorough thinkers, the ones with the mental capacity to hold and examine many different things in the mind at one time tend to reject the "God of your [Moses} father.." as being almighty and therefore reject religions claiming such, a clear violation of the first commandment. We'll never know but that is a plausible explanation of Einstein's thoughts that is consistent with his science.

Hi T I m, et Al,

go to PostGlobal , instead of onfaith/onreligion here also from time to time. ya ya.

* If Einstein is correct and energy is neither created nor destroyed, we have energy and therefore in some basic way we continue.

Translation: You have a soul and your soul will live in eternity after your physical body decays and dies. You don't go to nothingness. You exist even after death.

* The concept of heaven and hell are helpful images of fulfillment or disintegration.

Translation: not sure ... but an image is not something physical so I guess he thinks heaven and hell are just nice concepts in the Bible to scare the hell out us.

* Drawing upon my spiritual tradition I would understand saying yes to God as being drawn into that fulfillment by God's grace.

Translation: Saying yes to God is a good thing because that gets you to heaven.

* Saying no would be a way of self selecting out of that ultimate fulfillment.

Translation: You can opt out of God ultimate fulfillment and I guess if you want you can call this sending yourself to hell.

Nice new age talk, Rector, and I am sure it fills up the collection plate a lot faster than a King James wrapper. Good job and congratulations on a truly Madison Avenue approach.

This is Einstein:
"You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own.But it is different from the religion of the naive man.For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears: a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for it's father,a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation,however deeply it may be tinged with awe.
"But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation.The future to him,is every whit as necessary and determined as the past.
There is nothing divine about morality,it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law,which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that,compared with it,all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."
from The World as I See IT,by Albert Einstein.pp29

The natural has no need of the supernatural.

Science should be agnostic on the subject of spirituality, objectively asserting conclusions from evidence, fact, logic, and truth.

Religious conceptions seem to make fewer errors of science when they within the realm of social "truths" that conservatively address identity & community, but hopefully, may evolve and self-refine as society advances.

As for the Reverend's allusion to science and existence:

Isn't it interesting that human beings convert energy into information on a relatively massive scale in comparison to other things?

The scale of information in human (ie: sentient) civillization is something completely special in phenomenon in comparison to stars, planets, moons, geological formations, and other clumps of matter & energy.

And isn't it interesting that from the clumps of complex matter within the human brain, EMERGES consciousness? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)

Hmm... what are consciousness and information? They are dependant upon matter and energy, but are they matter or energy?

And isn't it interesting how the human brain experiences the FLOW OF TIME?

hmm...

1+1 does = 3, for large values of 1.

If your suppositions and premises don't add up to your desired conclusion, then change the meaning of the words used to describe your premises.

Gather together a sufficient number of gullible and credulous fools, and statistically speaking you'll be declared a genius ... well, a prophet anyway. Given sufficient time and sycophancy you'll start believing it yourself.

Does this sound like any people we know?

No Will or Ought by Albert Einstein
The sense of the religious, which is released through the experience of potentially nearing a logical grasp of these deep-lying world relations, is … a feeling of awe and reverence for the manifest Reason which appears in reality. It does not lead to the assumption of a divine personality—a person who makes demands of us and takes an interest in our individual being. In this there is no Will, nor Aim, nor an Ought, but only Being.
A Statement Against the Church and a Personal God By Einstein
About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church. As long as I can remember, I have resented mass indocrination. I do not believe in the fear of life, in the fear of death, in blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws.

—W. Hermanns, Einstein and the Poet—In Search of the Cosmic Man (Branden Press, Brookline Village, Mass., 1983), p.132, quoted in Jammer, p.123.

Hi Jihadist,

I appreciated your comment on my heaven and hell post on the Jacoby thread. My post was a little darker than normal.

As for Einstein, not only did believers and unbelievers both claim him, but other believers and unbelievers wanted him to either burn in hell or felt betrayed. Either way, I don't think he was flattered. I think his beliefs were far more personal (his wonderment when facing nature) and had little to do with his public pronunciations, which were in response to questions by reporters. As for his Zionism, I believe that was strictly secular and had to do with establishing a place of safety for Jews. I wonder what he would think of the dance of death between the Israeli's and Palestinians?

Spinoza was an amazing fellow and obviously a heavyweight during The Age of Reason. Because you seem to have so much time on your hands, aside from pillaging the financial markets, you might want to check out "Betraying Spinoza: the renegade Jew who gave us modernity" by Rebecca Goldstein and "The courtier and the heretic: Leibniz, Spinoza, and the fate of God in the modern world" by Matthew Stewart. These might provide enjoyable summer reading. It turns out I haven't read them because, much like yourself, I too have so much time on my hands.

People of all stripes are always co-opting science and literature to prop up their beliefs and biases. One idea is the Naturalist Fallacy, which suggests that everything natural is good. Just try telling that to people who’ve eaten the fruits and tubers of poisonous plants. Many people who actually distrust science actually use science to bestow a patina of respectability to their arguments. Or, in contrast, as we have experienced in On Faith, people use the bible or other holy scripture to justify all sorts of wild, and often rather unpleasant, beliefs.

I’m a member of the Temple of FSM and I liked your previous post so much that I copied it down. Like any True Believer, I’ve been disheartened by the schisms shredding our pastalic faith and look forward to the true dogma of Pastafarians that requires us to cover our eyes with lasagna in blind obedience. May the First Council quickly finish its work on its new Canon of the Noodle.

If you ever come to Reno, Nevada to gamble away your ill-gotten gains, I’ll be happy to make Carbonara with Angel Hair Pasta for you and/or Norrie.

Maurie

With respect to HALE-BOPP, as I said the musical tone was a simple example, but at the same time, to suggest that musical tones can't evoke an emotional state would put you at odds with virutally every musician (and most casual enthusiasts) on earth. One thing I will say though, is that I have never made a claim in my life to have a truely original thought (is it possible to come up with anything that hasn't already been thought of by Shakespeare or the Simpsons?) and I'm sure that it shares many similarities to other spiritual systems of belief. I think virtually every religion or brand of spirituality is all basically scratching at the surface of the same thing.

In regards to the tangible vs. intangible energies, I think you're misinterpreting what I said. Just because something is tangible, doesn't mean it's understood, and just because something is intangible doesn't mean it can't be understood, or even quantified (in some sense). Public opinion, moods and pain can all be quantified to an extent even though they have no tangible physical presence.

Granted, I am currently under the belief that whatever force it is that keeps our hearts beating and brains operating for X amount of time carries it's own inherent energy. Maybe I'm just being close minded here, but for me to try to believe that this energy just disappears is like trying to tell me 1+1=3, it just doesn't add up to me. I think it's as THINK elequently stated, when a book burns, you're left with some ash, and the rest of the book is light and heat. I'm not saying that we'll retain our complete individuality and form as we know it, I just don't think we cease all form of existance. However if I die and do cease all forms of existance, I promise you won't hear me complain ;)

I'm not trying to press this on anyone, and I'm most definately not saying that this is the know all end all truth. These are beliefs I hope to keep evolving over the course of my existance.

HALE-BOPP, the problem I have with your post is that you do absolutely nothing to back up your claim with theory, fact, science or anything besides unicorns and pixies. If you'd like to help me discover where the gaps of logic lie, I'd greatly appreciate discovering a new piece of the puzzle to ponder, and if it completely turns my beliefs on their head, all the better! But dude, you're trying to take the exact same close minded stance that all the religious fundamentalists take, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. My biggest fear is that when everybody's set into this "there absolutely must be a god/afterlife/whatever" vs. "there absolutely can't be" if there every is a scientific discovery in the future that even cracka a window into the possibility of a spiritual realm, suddenly we'll have to deal with a millions of different religious nuts from a million different religions ranting and raving about how this proves that they were right, and really, we hear enough from them as is...

With respect to HALE-BOPP, as I said the musical tone was a simple example, but at the same time, to suggest that musical tones can't evoke an emotional state would put you at odds with virutally every musician (and most casual enthusiasts) on earth. One thing I will say though, is that I have never made a claim in my life to have a truely original thought (is it possible to come up with anything that hasn't already been thought of by Shakespeare or the Simpsons?) and I'm sure that it shares many similarities to other spiritual systems of belief. I think virtually every religion or brand of spirituality is all basically scratching at the surface of the same thing.

In regards to the tangible vs. intangible energies, I think you're misinterpreting what I said. Just because something is tangible, doesn't mean it's understood, and just because something is intangible doesn't mean it can't be understood, or even quantified (in some sense). Public opinion, moods and pain can all be quantified to an extent even though they have no tangible physical presence.

Granted, I am currently under the belief that whatever force it is that keeps our hearts beating and brains operating for X amount of time carries it's own inherent energy. Maybe I'm just being close minded here, but for me to try to believe that this energy just disappears is like trying to tell me 1+1=3, it just doesn't add up to me. I think it's as THINK elequently stated, when a book burns, you're left with some ash, and the rest of the book is light and heat. I'm not saying that we'll retain our complete individuality and form as we know it, I just don't think we cease all form of existance. However if I die and do cease all forms of existance, I promise you won't hear me complain ;)

I'm not trying to press this on anyone, and I'm most definately not saying that this is the know all end all truth. These are beliefs I hope to keep evolving over the course of my existance.

HALE-BOPP, the problem I have with your post is that you do absolutely nothing to back up your claim with theory, fact, science or anything besides unicorns and pixies. If you'd like to help me discover where the gaps of logic lie, I'd greatly appreciate discovering a new piece of the puzzle to ponder, and if it completely turns my beliefs on their head, all the better! But dude, you're trying to take the exact same close minded stance that all the religious fundamentalists take, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. My biggest fear is that when everybody's set into this "there absolutely must be a god/afterlife/whatever" vs. "there absolutely can't be" if there every is a scientific discovery in the future that even cracka a window into the possibility of a spiritual realm, suddenly we'll have to deal with a millions of different religious nuts from a million different religions ranting and raving about how this proves that they were right, and really, we hear enough from them as is...

With respect to HALE-BOPP, as I said the musical tone was a simple example, but at the same time, to suggest that musical tones can't evoke an emotional state would put you at odds with virutally every musician (and most casual enthusiasts) on earth. One thing I will say though, is that I have never made a claim in my life to have a truely original thought (is it possible to come up with anything that hasn't already been thought of by Shakespeare or the Simpsons?) and I'm sure that it shares many similarities to other spiritual systems of belief. I think virtually every religion or brand of spirituality is all basically scratching at the surface of the same thing.

In regards to the tangible vs. intangible energies, I think you're misinterpreting what I said. Just because something is tangible, doesn't mean it's understood, and just because something is intangible doesn't mean it can't be understood, or even quantified (in some sense). Public opinion, moods and pain can all be quantified to an extent even though they have no tangible physical presence.

Granted, I am currently under the belief that whatever force it is that keeps our hearts beating and brains operating for X amount of time carries it's own inherent energy. Maybe I'm just being close minded here, but for me to try to believe that this energy just disappears is like trying to tell me 1+1=3, it just doesn't add up to me. I think it's as THINK elequently stated, when a book burns, you're left with some ash, and the rest of the book is light and heat. I'm not saying that we'll retain our complete individuality and form as we know it, I just don't think we cease all form of existance. However if I die and do cease all forms of existance, I promise you won't hear me complain ;)

I'm not trying to press this on anyone, and I'm most definately not saying that this is the know all end all truth. I'd just like to have a meaningful discussion about it, and HALE-BOPP, you really had nothing but fluff and no real substantive argument. At least if you would've provided some examples of the gaps of logic it would at least give some room for intellectual exploration, but whatever if unicorns and dragons float your boat I guess you can keep talking about them. But for the record, it's magnetism that keeps the magnet on your fridge.

THINK how a cell phone, a machine gun, an airplane, so many things we take for granted today, think how impossible they would have sounded to ancient peoples. Yet our ancient ancestors stood at the grave and sent the dead on to another world just like or maybe a little better than this one. And they said they had new, young and healthy bodies. We know they were wrong about cell phones, machine guns, airplanes, the things we now take for granted. Were they also wrong about the disposition of the dead?

Hell is the outcropping of faith in more life after this life. Yes, if there is no more life then hell is ridiculous. But the inventor of hell could not have *sold* the idea if people did not believe there was more life after death. Hell is a mafia like extortion/protection racket invented for the identical purpose, gaining free wealth and none other. THINK about it.

GARY E MASTERS:

We can't look at information because we're living the lie, sacred scriptures are the word of God. Information tells us they are hoaxes. The *information* that gives us the first commandment forbids the identifying of God. Information is a killer,, a violation of the 5th commandment. Play safe, stick with the material, the nuts and bolts of things.

If a book burns, its matter and energy are conserved, but the book is still totally destroyed. Specifically, the matter of the book (paper and binding) is converted into ash and smoke, and the energy stored in that matter (through chemical bonds) is converted into heat and light. To say that the book survives in these circumstances is nonsense. That Einstein showed that matter and energy are equivalent at the speed of light squared doesn't help the book's survival. If the book undergoes a thermonuclear reaction, then all its energy and matter are converted into heat and light. To say that heat and light are the book is nonsense.
To preserve people in a meaningful form in an afterlife beyond death will take much more than Einstein.

When the big bolder rest on the mountain it has only POTENTIAL energy. When it breaks loose and rolls down the mountain that POTENTIAL energy converts to KINETIC energy,, until it stops rolling, comes to rest. If it stops in your neighbor's living room that's real bad and if it's your living room it's a disaster.

Einstein's famous equation E = MCC (can't superscript here, CC means C times C which is squared) is actually the formula for kinetic energy, E = MVV. C is the speed of light while V is how fast one happens to be going at the time. All Einstein said was that the fastest we can go is, C, the speed of light. But speed is RELATIVE to the platform of observation. If the platform is moving at the same speed as the subject then the RELATIVE speed is zero no matter how fast all are actually going.

I think Einstein was frustrated by the fact that we can't tell if the universe is in motion or standing still, no observation platform.

Many scientists discount RELATIVITY as nonsense. All proofs like the bending of light around the sun are explained by other means. In the case of bending light it is pointed out that light bends in prisms which is equally good to prove the ETHER theory with a non uniform ether cloud. Ether is denser in the vicinity of masses.

Why does it take a brave soul to say, "I don't know but I will give it my best efforts to find out and accept the results of my finding?"

Patterns and dynamic systems need energy, but are not just energy and can change beyond recognition. You would be better off looking at information theory than physics for an answer.

Will be right to show you what we are who we are
and what is around us and what we are doing here but this is on a stage of
development abstraction and simulating model
may be you will be shocked but 100 percents of you just INTERPRETERS and manipulated by powefull environment and used extremly ambition.
Einstein was interpreter either.

Me be dummer then Roks, n i don't be understanding nethang you alls be saying. One question tho...when the Earth is sucked into the sun, how will the enrgy be converted? Is it the conversion of energy through fusion or how does this happen? Does God have the capabilities to transform energy into whatever he wants i to be? When we become technologically capable and efficient at being able to transform energy into different types of energy, at the same ability as God, how will we react as a species? Will we be able to even transform energy the wya God can change energy? This is for anyone to answer, please n thanx. Is our energy the same as His energy? Might be missing one or two molecules here and there, but everything is pretty much the same isn't it?

DJO;
Yes, I do believe you are 'blowingsmoke'.
You assert that a minor key has a universal effect and recognition analogous to or affecting mood..... I don't think so. 'Intangible energy' is nothing more than a californiaized version of spirit, soul, and karma, the force. Things you understand vs. things you don't. This tedious version still requires gigantic metaphysical leaps and mirrors to support. It is nothing more than unicorns, fairies, and mighty trolls in chariots of gold. It is contrived, fluffed, glittered up, new-agey and not at all new or unique. You leap from vibrations to immortality as if one proved another.. they don't. I don't really know what quantum force is at play when I peel a magnet off my fridge. I can't see it, or adequatlely explain it. I do not make the assumption though that it must therefore be divine, or immortal.

As a non-christian, I found this post to be quite interesting. My own spiritual beliefs (in a small small nutshell) rest on the fact that there are two types of energy in the universe; tangible energy and intangible energy. Things that are composed of tangible energy, such as our physical bodies and the homes we live in, and if you ask any scientist, they will tell you that every known physical thing in the universe is at the atomic level composed of energy. However, intangible energy tends to surround tangible energy, often times we can sense this intangible energy without even realizing it. The easiest way to grasp this is to think of a song; a slow song played in a minor key will create tangible sound vibrations, but it also carries a recognizable "sad" or "blue" tone. Obviously, these vibrations don't have the emotional capacity for depression, and yet we still recognize the emotion with little effort. The thing that makes humans unique on this planet is our ability to channel and manipulate this intangible energy through our thoughts, emotions and spiritual beliefs. Upon death, we are freed from the restraints of existing as primarily tangible forms of energy and the "afterlife" is an extension of the intangible energy that we have cultivated around us. Those that cultivated an energy of compassion, enlightenment and curiosity will have a pleasant existance whereas those who have cultivated a mindset of hatred, ignorance/close-mindedness or maliciousness will be consumed their own flawed energies, eternally if they can't develop an air of discovery and compassion.

Keep in mind, this is a very abbreviated version. I would love to get in contact with Rev. Cooper or any others who would like to share their input. Thanks!

josh@bluesmokehookah.com

As a non-christian, I found this post to be quite interesting. My own spiritual beliefs (in a small small nutshell) rest on the fact that there are two types of energy in the universe; tangible energy and intangible energy. Things that are composed of tangible energy, such as our physical bodies and the homes we live in, and if you ask any scientist, they will tell you that every known physical thing in the universe is at the atomic level composed of energy. However, intangible energy tends to surround tangible energy, often times we can sense this intangible energy without even realizing it. The easiest way to grasp this is to think of a song; a slow song played in a minor key will create tangible sound vibrations, but it also carries a recognizable "sad" or "blue" tone. Obviously, these vibrations don't have the emotional capacity for depression, and yet we still recognize the emotion with little effort. The thing that makes humans unique on this planet is our ability to channel and manipulate this intangible energy through our thoughts, emotions and spiritual beliefs. Upon death, we are freed from the restraints of existing as primarily tangible forms of energy and the "afterlife" is an extension of the intangible energy that we have cultivated around us. Those that cultivated an energy of compassion, enlightenment and curiosity will have a pleasant existance whereas those who have cultivated a mindset of hatred, ignorance/close-mindedness or maliciousness will be consumed their own flawed energies, eternally if they can't develop an air of discovery and compassion.

Keep in mind, this is a very abbreviated version. I would love to get in contact with Rev. Cooper or any others who would like to share their input. Thanks!

josh@bluesmokehookah.com

As a non-christian, I found this post to be quite interesting. My own spiritual beliefs (in a small small nutshell) rest on the fact that there are two types of energy in the universe; tangible energy and intangible energy. Things that are composed of tangible energy, such as our physical bodies and the homes we live in, and if you ask any scientist, they will tell you that every known physical thing in the universe is at the atomic level composed of energy. However, intangible energy tends to surround tangible energy, often times we can sense this intangible energy without even realizing it. The easiest way to grasp this is to think of a song; a slow song played in a minor key will create tangible sound vibrations, but it also carries a recognizable "sad" or "blue" tone. Obviously, these vibrations don't have the emotional capacity for depression, and yet we still recognize the emotion with little effort. The thing that makes humans unique on this planet is our ability to channel and manipulate this intangible energy through our thoughts, emotions and spiritual beliefs. Upon death, we are freed from the restraints of existing as primarily tangible forms of energy and the "afterlife" is an extension of the intangible energy that we have cultivated around us. Those that cultivated an energy of compassion, enlightenment and curiosity will have a pleasant existance whereas those who have cultivated a mindset of hatred, ignorance/close-mindedness or maliciousness will be consumed their own flawed energies, eternally if they can't develop an air of discovery and compassion.

Keep in mind, this is a very abbreviated version. I would love to get in contact with Rev. Cooper or any others who would like to share their input. Thanks!

josh@bluesmokehookah.com

Silly me. I thought energy and matter could be interchanged one for the other. In fact, that's my understanding of how A bombs work, burn a little matter real fast and get a giant kerboooooom.

Things that can be interchanged one for the other are the same thing so I suppose we could say the universe is energy and nothing more. Energy and matter differ from each other the way 4 quarters differ from a dollar bill. Atomic reactions are just God making change.

It's never simple. When little matters are made into big matters, fusion bombs like H types there's even more energy released. That's called making mountains out of mole hills. Actually them kind of bombs turn mountains into patches of mole hills.

Reread the first commandment. Thou shalt not give God attributes not even calling God pure energy or saying God is the sum total of nature.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is the story of what happens to people who see something they think is God. Moses and all who follow are guilty of violating the first commandment, saying God lives in a ball of fire.

Perplexing, isn't it? If God would only speak to us. But then how would we know it's God and not Devil, just some being that would be God? By the actions of those who believe it's God you will know it's really Devil.

JWS - You ask, “is this just a poorly thought-out analogy or does he mean more than is apparent.” Here’s my answer: it means whatever you want it to mean.

The reaction of some people is probably, "Einstein was a genius. Einstein believed in God. Therefore God exists. So do Mary, Jesus, etc. etc."

For others, it's "A guy in a clerical collar said it, so I'll nod knowingly, without thinking much about what it means. Probably is something about God's grace."

For others, it's, "That doesn't make any sense at all, but I'll keep quiet about it."

Thankfully, we have this forum, where we can be honest and direct about our reactions and perhaps Rev Cooper can try to be more clear.

Please, Rev Cooper, consider that sometimes when you make religious pronouncements, your parishioners just nod and smile, without really understanding it at all.

There is something that Einstein spoke of that was not of this world, and I tell you the energy waves that will come from it will be just around the corner. For they are dancing in the air and as a voice has power and as a radio station has static, you will know from the air there is an energy source of power from the light and the sound, a sound can create energy! A current and a fan can give you energy!

Things are hidden for us not to be in fear, but to search for the answer. There is a solution, even for Iraq. Those things that are hidden from plain sight are about to be discovered. New cures, new inventions, and new discoveries even things in the past that Einstein was on the verge of discovering will be unlocked in this day. These are all things that this generation shall see. For those who are like detectives searching out for the betterment of our country will have their tranquility at hand. I believe that the institutions at hand are the future gathers of what we at one time called the modern era, but this is passing into the greater era ever known to man. A place where we can go anywhere we want just by thinking, new vision, new hope and power to get us to the next level is here. We will see our endeavors bring to life a creation of the kind that is lurking at the hands of the next creative Einstein’s and Edison's. For there will become such a rapid increase in the future that even third world countries will all have power in its hand. Even the gospel will be communicated via internet, movie screens, radio and television in places never before seen. The wave that is about to take place is the generation of creativity from a source out of this dimension and flowing from the realms of wisdom from heaven.

this is for the person with the alias GOD

that might possibly the most preposterous reasoning i have ever witnessed.

Belief itself is not grounds for fact. I can believe i am ten feet tall and just because i believe it doesn't make it true.

obviously you have never taken a course that covers the process of arguing and expression of philisophical reasoning because your first sentence is not valid. Presupposition is never an effective way to make a point.

Mr. Cooper;
I am afraid that I must agree with a couple of the other posts, that your comments, attempting to link or associate energy in the physical sense as an analog for, or evidence of a soul, or immortal consciousness, Is not only flawed, irrational, it is, for you, embarrassing.
Your use of: ‘in some basic way we continue’ is absurd as a scientific statement and absolutely, inexcusably, misleading to the faithful flock.
The particles that we call ‘us’ are little more than basic common atoms… of course those atoms continue to exist once we die. The energy we convert from calories in food to heat and electricity also continues to exist and be converted by other things… one thing these things never do though is collectively remain the same, nor recombine to re-form us as we were.
A can of soup, warmed by the energy of a stovetop, enters our body and provides nourishment. We digest the soup, stripping off the nutritious bits, converting it to blood, sweat, bile, tears, etc. tossing away the unneeded. A day or two later sir, according to your analogy, in some basic way, the soup continues. Yes it does. No it doesn’t. The conversion process has completely separated all the significant, identifiable components and converted them to something else, scattered afar, never, never, never to be that can of soup again. Even if all the components did somehow get gathered up again and poured into a can as soup.. it would sir, not be the SAME can of soup.

God happens to be God, Einstein isn't God, you know in Jesus's day the learned seemed to have a hard time too. God has a Plan and His Plan will come to fruition. Did you ever notice that we have made gods out of our brains, our knowledge and our toys including what this is written on. God said He will send the simple to confound the wise, well Here I am and the simple message is: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. How come when people talk in circles and seem to say nothing, the illusion is that they actually said something meaningful. God is Love, Pure Love and whatever you do for Love you are doing for God. We are all God's children, we are quite a dysfunctional family are we not? The Kingdom is ultimately for everyone and It will be much better than anyone could ever imagine, we all get judged but God is nothing like what a lot of people that know His Name think that He is. Hang in there, He hung in there for us. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The lack of tangible proof that heaven or hell
exist is evidence enough that they do. Science
is a search for tangible proof. Once the tangible
proof is found the quest of science is over and
science is converted to fact. Noone denies they
are dead once their scientific quest for the
secrets of life are ended and the fact remains
that they are in fact dead. At the same time the
tangible proof of heaven or hell is now self-
evident and becomes fact. Do you exist? Prehaps
tomorrow you will not exist. So long as you do
in fact exist and are able to continue your quest
for the answers to great mysteries such as this.
The true mystery lies in what you allow your own
spirit to believe is possible. Spiritual things
are spiritual not tangible. Tangible things are
creations of the spirit that believes in things,
then the spirit creates them into existance as
a tangible thing. Science only serves mankind by
documenting what has been created by the spirit
and labels it as fact. Heaven and Hell exist only
because the spirit believes in them and creates
one are the other as their own spiritual destiny.
It awaits the day when they end their own
scientific journey and ends their search for
other tangible facts. Yet, unless your spirit is
still alive after you are in fact been found dead,
only then do you have a need to know if there is
a Heaven are a Hell that is tangible. That said,
create for yourself what you want to believe in.
I can only hope that science has taught you that
death is real wheither you choose to believe in
it or not.

This fine, cautious, scientific, factual statement: "If Einstein is correct and energy is neither created nor destroyed, we have energy and therefore in some basic way we continue."

... and these platitudes: "The concept of heaven and hell are helpful images of fulfillment or disintegration. Drawing upon my spiritual tradition I would understand saying yes to God as being drawn into that fulfillment by God's grace. Saying no would be a way of self selecting out of that ultimate fulfillment."

... have absolutely NO logical connection, if you understand the full meaning and context of the first statement.

Conservation of energy does not in ANY way imply preservation of consciousness or identity and as such, it has no direct bearing on the idea of Heaven or Hell. To imply otherwise is at best indicative of honest ignorance and at worst indicative of a deliberate effort to mislead.

That being the case, for the sake of clarity and honesty, I would revise this article to not include the first statement, and edit the title from "Einstein and Heaven?" to simply "Heaven?"

Of course, what would be left is merely a scrap of superstitious speculation that is roughly on the same level as the Santa myth in terms of evidential support and its usefulness if believed ... but this is true of the article even in its unedited form.

Maurie Beck

Thanks. Always, always good to read your sane posts here. Your first post in Susan Jacoby's thread on heaven and hell is excellent.

I read about the percentage increase of atheists/agnostics/secular humanists in Susan Jacoby's piece.

As for Einstein, that was what I had thought about him being not quite explicit on god. Thanks for the confirmation. Interesting that both believers and non-believers now claim Einstein in arguments for both belief and unbelief in God. I wonder what Einstein would think of that. Probably very flattered.

And thanks for that tip on Spinoza and his god or nature reasoning. Some believers lately do tend to go overboard in coopting scientific terminology and principles to reinforce belief in the existence and nature of God.

Re this topic, I am in a sniping mood and mode on the breathtakingly oblique, opaque and conssequently obtuse essays by some On Faith panelists who are professed believers.

I completely understand and relate to what Ms. Susan Jacoby wrote :- that it is better for us to completely focus on the here and now - to do the right thing, to avoid and fight against hell on earth in whatever form it manifest itself (war, pestilence, poverty, injustice, environmental degradation etc) for ourself, others and future generations.

How and where did you dig out my previous post on the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Want to join the Temple of Flying Spaghetti Monsterians? The tenets, dogmas and rites of this pasta worshiping faith is still being worked by vote and consensus at the First Council of Pastarian.

Thanks for thinking of graciously inviting Norrie Hoyt and me to share and feast on pasta with carbonara sauce. Sounds like a taste of heaven on earth. For this true believer, I'll have carbonara with angel hair pasta please. Must be religiously correct on that. Or, I'll go to a hell where there's pasta, but no sauces to go with it, ever.

Best regards as always.
J

Please don't drag in Einstein and conservation of matter/energy into a discussion of the afterlife. Nothing irritates scientists more than these half-baked pseudoscientific allusions to modern physics that are supposed to prove some deep spiritual truth. It doesn't work--it's pure gibberish. Maybe it'd work as a metaphor--I don't know, but you put it forward as some kind of logical argument and it isn't.

Belief in Christianity is already hard enough for many scientifically-minded people and you just make it worse with this sort of thing.

Jihadist - Maurie Beck, please save us believers from ourselves here with some hard science facts on energy and Einstein.

Hi Jihadist,

I know I didn't post anything on the increase in atheists and agnostics in the U.S., so I'm assuming you are asking me for some help with posters equating heaven and hell and the number of believers with Einsteins equations on energy and matter. Applies and oranges to my mind.

If Einstein had any belief in god, he never stated explicitly what it was and the record seems contradictory. In my mind, if he had such a belief, it was more in line with Spinoza's "Deus sive Natura" (god or nature) in which god was nature and there was no mind/body duality.

Oh Jeez, enough of the techno babble. God energy ... emmanates beauty and love Give us a break.
When God-botherers try to sound scientific, this is what they come up with. As JIHADIST put it, stick to the fire & brimstome fellas.

Synthesist, you argue: "The entity that is "you" is a product of the complexity of the physical structure and processes of your brain/body."

That is surely one view. It has gaps however for, for example, if that were the case then the intelligent product that results is auto-referential. That is, it explains what it itself is. Yet that explanation varies from product to product and does not explain the overarching process.

Another view is that more complex physical structures are required to communicate ever greater eternally pre-existing intelligence and meaning.

Utter tosh
This is just replacing the idea of a "soul" with the pseudo-scientific new-agey sounding "energy"

The entity that is "you" is a product of the complexity of the physical structure and processes of your brain/body.

Once this structure dies that's it, end.of.story.

...and easy to see why the percentage of atheists and agnostics have increased in the US.

Maurie Beck, please save us believers from ourselves here with some hard science facts on energy and Einstein.

To have a mind such as Einstein, and the simple humility of the common man...is there something better than this?...scripture of all the major faiths points in an upward direction. E=mc2: the author of that equation, spent his conscious life looking up. If Albert is not in heaven, there is little hope for the rest of us.

Potential and kinetic are states of energy not types of energy.

Of course there are different types of energy. For example, the energy of fire to heat water, is not exactly the same as the energy of blood moving through one's veins or the energy released by nuclear fission or the energy released by emotional expression.

The energy released in hatred or of love are different and involve different constituents of mass.

God as a reality (not a mere philosphical construct) is some-thing, some entity, so it is reasonable that this entity is constituted by energy and mass...and may switch between (at least) potential and kinetic states.

What exactly did Mr. Jim Cooper wrote about and meant about heaven and hell? My level English and spiritual belief is really wanting then, in not comprehending him.

Energy is power of God?

God emanates beauty and love by energy?

Beauty and love are physiological responses to external stimuli?

Conservation of energy predating Einstein?

Glad to know everyone is as confused as I am and trying to make sense of what Mr. Cooper wrote and what he meant.

Give me the fire and brimstone of hell. Give me the idyll of heaven. That I can understand as a simple believer.

You know, the concept of the conservation of energy goes back a bit further than Einstein - try ancient Greece, for starters.

???
Beauty and love are not energy. they are phsycological responses to external stimuli (albeit complex ones). Different types of energy would be 'potential' or 'kinetic'. My question is, is this just a poorly thought-out analogy or does he mean more than is apparent.

JWS -- No I don't think that father Cooper means that. There are probably many different types and structures of energy, and God energy is unique in its characteristics. For example, it emmanates unimaginable beauty and love.

I'm confused. By your 'energy' analogy, we are not created either. Does that mean God is not a 'creator'?