How to Pray at School

"The Department of Education issued a report on religion in the schools. It is clear student led prayer is constitutional. Liberals who oppose student prayer need a course in multi-culturalism."

A student-led communist club is also constitutional - as is a student-led fascist club. A group of students interested in getting together and talking about how great Stalin was or the other political extreme of students getting together to talk about how great Hitler was are both perfectly constitutional.

My hope would be that most adults would express their objection to such groups while not interfering with their constitutional rights of free speech or assembly. And I would expect that other rationale adults wouldn't throw out the canard of 'multi-culturalism' as a complaint.

The Department of Education issued a report on religion in the schools. It is clear student led prayer is constitutional. Liberals who oppose student prayer need a course in multi-culturalism. It is amazing how people will say the most bigoted things about people of faith.

As for parental involvement, the school cannot impose content-specific regulations. Parents can participate in prayer activities if they can participate in other school-based activities. The same rules must be applied. Possibly the point is student prayer works better when parents choose not to participate.

Teachers should have the same rights to participate in prayer as they do in other voluntary school-related activities.

As we have recently seen, school administrators ought NOT to participate, because they represent the State. However, school officials shouldn't be seen as endorsing a wide range of student activities (political clubs, lobby groups etc.)

In reply to cmarshdtihqcom:

1) It cannot be true that accepting Jesus is necessary for eternal life: many millions of people live their entire lives without exposure to Christianity, and God - whatever he or she is - would never be so petty to exclude them.

2) You say Christ died for our sins: but that is not true: he was buried for 3 brief days, but then was resurrected to live again. Almost like being in a coma for a short while. Not much of a sacrifice really: I'd be happy to suffer a few nails and burial to know I could live in a heaven afterwards.

Whatever God is: he or she transcends Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, and all man-made faiths.

ginormousdrew, yes, The Byrds song Turn Turn Turn is based on that verses after Ecclesiastes 3:1.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace (adding the lyrics "I swear it's not too late")

I had a classmate in A or Honors level British literature in high school in Waldorf, MD. He brought a Bible and read it. It attracted students' attention (but not the adults' attention) and he shared it with them.

He was not harassed by either students or teachers or administrators in my experience. As it was 4th period and an extension of lunch time, we were permitted free time for Bible study, etc.

I wish I had brought my Bible and talked to him because I had salvation wrong (I was trying to go about Christianity like Jews go about Judaism or Muslims go about Islam)*. I found that out two years later in college.

I was properly saved with the full knowledge of what I was doing about a year after I graduated college with a sociology degree, a matter of months before graduate school.

* The critical difference between Christianity and Judaism or Islam is that there is no concept in Christianity of "being saved by being more good than bad."

Once you are old enough to understand right from wrong, have done anything wrong, and do not accept Jesus for forgiveness, you have become bad, and no amount of goodness saves you.

What does save you is the intervention by the Son of God if you are willing to invite Him into your soul and life and try to follow Him.

His authority to do to this is based on never having sinned, and having deliberately died a criminal's death for nothing, as a deliberate blood sacrifice under Jewish custom. As God, His body died, and His deity went to the underworld to free the souls there (I think), and three days later He reclaimed His human body, the angel opened the tomb after overpowering the Roman guards, and Jesus came forth.

(Incidentally that is why the Last Temptation of Christ stepped on so many toes. If Jesus had sinned, He could not erase the sins of anyone. Only 99.44% clean Ivory soap can clean your hands right? Well Jesus has to be 100%.)

Later.

Dear SISTERS1st & Dear BRETHRENS2nd:

SIR/MAM:

The "HEALTHCARE-DEBATE" should simply Waite Wate AFter the U.S. CENSUS 2010; This, not to distant "STATISTIC, Constitutionaly Required by OUR For-Mothes/Fathers [Peace be Upon Them]

will have Magjical outcomes/results, good tidings & more Savings, for ALL Dear AMERICAN's (Legal & Illegal) & our Nieghbors for the next +100 Years!

And best of All: President Obama & CO., Will Be Re-Elected via a "LAND-SLIDE"!

Such is "Predicted, slightly Prophecied?" IF & only IF His Honorable Brother Slamin-Dunkin BAMA waits after the U.S. CENSUS-2010 gallops around the Blesseth Continent of U.S.A & FAMILY!

Actually, See You At The Pole was started by a group of teenagers....they did this on their own with no push from adults. It is admirable when young people stand up for something good on their own. I agree with you also. In our country, other religions,groups,etc should be able to assemble peaceably without interference...as long as they are doing so peaceably. I have no problem with that. Don't know what pagans with pentagrams would join together around a flagpole to do. As long as it's not wishing a curse on me, I'm okay with that:)

Howie,

For the most part, I agree with you. If the event was organized by kids for kids, I would agrre with you on this point also but it isn't. The event was created and is run by adults and divides the kids on the basis of religion. By using the flagpole as a rallying point, it also falsely associates religion with patriotism.

Surely you don't want kids to divide themselves at school on the basis of religion? And surely you don't think that religion in general or Christianity in particular is synonymous with partriotism?

I look forward to the day when a group of Pagan students can do a Circle around the flagpole without some Fundamentalist beating the snot out of them, or threatening them with eternal damnation, etc.

Actually, I look forward to the day when Pagan children can wear their pentagrams outside of their shirts without their Christian schoolmates beating the snot out of them.

Fate1,
I do respect their views. You are the stereotypical liberal who won't allow a Christian to stand up for what they believe. Tolerance is preached today in our postmodern society, but the tolerance for Christianity is quickly decreasing. If you non christians had it their way, I wouldn't be able to talk about my faith outside of church.
As far as me saying Christians do good works, I didn't say that non-Christians don't. They do a lot of good work. My point is that so many people like you only have negative things to say about Christians....we are rotting your childrens minds with our Christian politics. Why don't you look at the positives of Christianity and join in with us when you can. Kids praying around a flagpole isn't going to hurt a thing. Kids praying anywhere won't hurt anything. I hope they will get together and pray in the mall. As long as it's not for show and to bring glory on themselves, it's perfectly Biblical.
I do respect your point of view, but know that I wish you shared my point of view:) I believe those who die without Christ won't have eternal life. If I didn't share that with you, it would mean I didn't love you. If I didn't want to share it with you, it would mean I didn't believe it.

asoders22
Your use of Jesus' teachings is bad exegesis of Scripture. See my previous post for an explanation.
Thanks.

asoders22
Your use of Jesus' teachings is poorly exegesis of Scripture. See my previous post for an explanation.
Thanks.

Theatre of dreams wrote:

"In Rockingham County Va schools, my kids brought home a permission slip for them to leave school grounds weekly, during school hours, to attend bible study. While this is voluntary, it certainly is injecting religion into public schools. How is this legal?"

This is called a "released time" program. It was upheld in 1952 by the U.S. Supreme Court in Zorach v. Clauson.

See WIKIPEDIA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Released_time

howie7654, I gotta tell ya, you are the stereotypical Christian. You think only Christians come to the aid of the injured and sick. You think morals come from Christianity, like they could not exist outside of it. Remember the Good Samaritan? Guess what, he existed before Christianity. Jesus used a non-Christian non-Hebrew as an example of morality to teach his own followers. Makes one wonder if his followers learned anything.

You say you love people who you then trounce. If you truly loved these posters you would read their opinions and understand their wish not to have their children subjected to christian theology at every turn.

And, I would ask you, when will be the first "See You At The Pole" event happen at the local Mall? If kids need to get together to pray for their safety its at the Mall, but no plans for that, just at public school. Excuse me for thinking in terms of conspiracy but I have to ask why children are being encouraged to pray there and no where else outside of home and church?

I attended See You At The Pole this morning at our local Middle School. 120 of the 450 students gathered together in a circle next to the school to pray. One by one the students prayed aloud, 95% of which couldn't be heard. But for them it wasn't about being heard....it wasn't a show....as most of the posters here have said. They talked to God and prayed for His blessing upon the world, our country, our state, our leaders, their school, their peers, and themselves. It's insane to me that people could feel so threatened by a Middle Schooler praying that God would bring peace in our world and our country. It's amazing to me that people would feel so threatened by a High Schooler praying for safety for those around them. The kids also prayed silently for several minutes....again, not for a show. Religion does have its issues in that there are so many denominations, and often they can't work together. But today I saw young believers of all Christian denominations standing together. This was an encouragement to all the young people I spoke to afterwards. Those youth at the flagpole this morning care about all their peers, whether they believe the same thing or not. So all those who posted today, know that you were prayed for out of love. I seriously doubt in all your anti-Christian banter you have ever wished a blessing upon me or hoped that safety and good-fortune would come my way. You're probably too busy making your own way in this life to think about others - making the most of these 70 something years you have on this earth because that's all there is for you. But I, and the majority of Americans, have a hope of eternity in heaven. We have something more to live for than just this World. We don't hate you....we love you...at least those who truly follow Christ. Again, it's amazing to me how much you all seem to spew hatred for Christians. We feed those who are hungry, we help rebuild cities, we clothe those who need clothing, and wherever there is a need Christians come in force to help meet that need. We don't do this for credit or your recognition. And when Christian youth meet around a flagpole it isn't for your recognition. They are simply following what they feel God has asked them to do.

How preposterous. Can you imagine if Muslim students spread their prayer rugs out "at the pole?" Schoolyard bully sons of Limbaugh's lemmings would run them off or beat them up. Someone else would call the FBI.

I remember middle school in Utah when someone "outed" a Catholic. Schoolyard bully sons of Ezra Taft Benson's Birchers had a free-for-all with their fists. These same young "Elders" gleefully cried out, "They finally shot that Catholic ba*stard when Kennedy was assassinated."

You Huckabees just don't get it. America voted out "Christian" theocracy last November. Your refusal to acknowledge this is sedition.

Quoting an earlier comment:

"

Jesus had an opinion on this:

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6

Posted by: chaos1"

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Isn't it strange how many Christians actually don't give a rat's ass (sorry) about what Jesus actually said? They couldn't care less.

There is no such thing as "proper prayer" at school. The minute a group of students start praying at school, they are automatically pointing out themselves and those who are not participating. That is not acceptable. Either they are a large group inevitably creating pressure on the non-participants, or a small group inviting pressure and "martyrdom" themselves, they will create a sharp line between "us" and "them".

Religion does not belong in school, which should be an area of free learning and free thought. To occupy time at school and school space for prayer is to impose on other people in a self-righteous way, masquerading as humbleness. This is a sneaky concept ("students' own initiative") to bully religion into the common and public space.

it's truly amazing how few people, US-conscience is a fine example, understand that we have no such thing as "godophobia"

There is no and are no gods to be phobic about, US-conscience.

But there is plenty to fear when one considers large numbers of religiously-insane believers in their continuous and never-ending efforts to take over the country and run it as their own personal theocracy.

we do not care in the least about your dogma, doctrine, the contents of your beliefs. Why do you people need to use these devious methods to infiltrate your christianity onto the public like this?

Because we do resist you. Even people who largely believe as you do have an innate sense of how wrong it is for your kind to take over public taxpayer-provided property in your efforts to infest everyone with your disease.

I wish I could say I'm amazed at how intollerant and hateful so many Godaphobe's are, but I'm not, it just goes to prove the depravity of the human heart without the grace of Jesus.

"see you at the pole" Sounds awfully gay for a bunch of religious bigots!

Brother Walker just doesn't get it.

Silently. Preferrably off of school property. While maintaining seperation of Church and State.

It's an ok article...provided one is an evangelical if one is living in the bible belt. In many places in the country, the "ethos" is so heavily fundamentalist that students from Christian traditions other than fundamentalistic Christians ARE pressured to join in, and they ARE put down if they choose not to. Same things as the football game "team prayers" and before game prayers on the loudspeakers. Instead, buy your ticket, find a seat and say your own private prayer if you must; I'll do my praying in my own way.

This is the same sort of experience as the football team members who thought they were going on a "team building trip" that ended up in the coach's church on a Wednesday night, and kids who were already baptized according to their and their families beliefs' were "encouraged" to be rebaptized on the spot (because that church did not accept the reality of the player's previous baptism.)

There is NO WAY that these gatherings at the pole can be non-pressuring of other Christians, or those who decline for whatever reason. And for those who support this:

WHY do we NEED to have this demonstrating of piety in this country? If we take Jesus seriously, aren't these akin to the Pharisees who stand on the corners showing off their piety in public? Jesus told his disciples to go into their closets and pray in secret, and they would have their prayers answered.

Let's each family and their church/ congregation/ temple, etc., teach their children what they want them to know about faith and prayer, and do their devotions at home, and then go to school to learn the things they need to know to be good citizens. I will be very happy if the schools would teach "reading, writing and arithmetic" and civics, science, etc., to students, and leave religion at home and at places of worship.

Pr chris

"Not every evangelical is hot for a Muslim genocide."

You're right, cmarshdtihqcom.

Not every evangelical is a genocidal maniac.

But pretty much every genocidal maniac is an evangelical.

Couldn't the Baptists, et al, meet in small groups to pray in parks? Or at one another's homes? In basements?

Do they have to be so very visible, when the rest of us don't? Let's face it. The agenda is to get us all to be a Christian praying society (preying?). The only thing it will accomplish is to increase animosity toward said prayers.

A school age kid should have fun rather than be exposed to ghastly politics spewed by dark and crooked brains.

This is the age when kids must enjoy ice creams as I did when I was a kid.

-----
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...
In an unlikely example of cracking "The Carbon Code," Unilever scientists are developing an ice cream that can be stored and transported at room temperature. Think about the energy required to freeze ice cream, transport and store it in freezers at grocery stores, and keep it cold until you’re ready to consume it. All of that energy — and related carbon footprint — is reduced to just the energy you need to chill it before serving.
-----

Kids should utilize all their time and effort to devise ways to make life of the ordinary on this earth enjoyable and worthwhile.

A spacewalk on Mars could save our humanity and flora and fauna for thousands of years to come, as opposed to a deadly outcome from religious fanatics (such as people like Walter) yearnings.

Kid must make all the effort to stay out of nasty ways of fanatics and jerks of this world.

And remember kids, we loose our right to complain about Islamic madrasas and fanatics, if we ourselves choose to be religious fanatics.

AmzgGrce:

In Saudi Arabia public prayer was not viewed oddly because Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. The United States is a secular republic - as such, which tend to view state-sponsored religious activities differently.

Amazing how perfect a Christian has to be in the eyes of the worldly. Apparently the moment one admits or professes to be a Christian, we are supposed to be 1) Perfect, 2) Peace loving, and 3) Willing to give up our views and desires and totally avoid any comments or outward signs that disagree with or otherwise oppose with those of a different persuasion.
The effort seems to be to keep limiting what Christians can say and do and where they can do it. Meanwhile in the more permissive cities and towns during g_y pride events the behavior is drifting towards doing everything one can to simulate or actually carry out copulation (that might not get censored) or other sexual acts. That is supposed to be permitted since is their right to do so. BUT let a Christian dare to pray in public, or commit any other act that is a sign of one s faith and THAT is offensive.

How upside down this country is going.

I guess I should have been frightened and offended when I walked the streets and alleys of Riyadh among the Muslims, I was not fully at ease but I certainly didn't feel put upon when they stopped all their work and closed their stores during their prayer time. Here, if a Christian store owner declared a prayer time during the normal workday they most likely would have some sort of federal lawsuit against them by the ACLU for trying to force Christianity on employees and customers. Or they would have their store trashed by some extreme GLB group – that is sad, very sad. Just as an anti-abortionist bombing an abortion clinic or shooting a doctor is sick, evil and unChristian. But how little fuss was made recently when an anti-abortionist was shot for his position. That news was gone from the web in about 36 hours or less.

Now I guess I could likewise feel offended when a co-worker wears a necklace or has a tattoo with a pentagram. Somehow that doesn't offend me. I may disagree with their views but that doesn t make me feel offended marginalized or otherwise demeaned. Guess the Cross and other religious symbols are pretty powerful in some eyes. Sorry they upset you but they are expressions of our love for our Lord. We don’t do it to offend but we do it because we are proud to be called Christian. We are far from perfect, that we know, but we keep trying and hoping to following in His footsteps. Forgive us but we won’t stop that nor will we hide our faith, that isn’t what Matthew 6 is all about.

I find the quoting of Matthew chapter 6 here to be a pretty poor usage of Scripture.

First, you are doing exactly what the Jesus was condemning when he was talking about the Pharisees which was that they were hypocrites, which in the original language was not so much about doing one thing and saying another, but that they looked only to the outside and the superficial, while ignoring the intent and true attitude of the heart. This passage of Scripture makes a clear juxtaposition because at this point in time these religious people were praying outside with the explicit intent of being seen, in order to be praised. His condemnation was that they were "praying" in order to receive accolades from their peers. Thus he draws a stark counter-example where the prayers of the righteous are those that do not look to the accolades of others.

Secondly, Jesus does NOT blanketly condemn public prayer, yet again he looks at the condition of the heart. Such as another similar passage where the pharisee and the tax collector are juxtaposed, Jesus does not condemn the tax collector for praying in public but instead calls him righteous because his prayer was contrite and selfless.

Lastly, if we take this particular usage of Scripture to its conclusion praying at Church itself would also be forbidden as would prayer that includes anyone else, which clearly even Jesus does not model, as he prays in Gesthamane (not a home or in private) and has His disciples with him. Let alone the countless examples from the Epistles where prayer is corporate and can include others such as prayers for healing.

Thus the problem with See You at the Pole would not be that it is in public, but would come down to a matter of the heart, does this event exist to draw attention to and glorify God or to show how religious and spiritual the participants are? One is worship the other is idolatry explicitly condemned by Jesus himself.

Some kids are going to pray, independent of the school. Big deal. The only difference between praying anywhere else is they're on school grounds. As long as it's not an official school event or led by teachers, so what? Get over it people. I'm vigorously opposed to school-led prayer, but this isn't that. Or at least it's not supposed to be - it's certainly open to abuse as the author and others note.

And guys, Kathy5 wrote "can NOT" - she didn't write "cannot." She meant one can be a non-Christian and still love their country.

Oh, and one can NOT be an atheist and criticize religion, or support religious freedom. (Read it carefully!)

Why do Christians pretend to be a minority group that is under attack? They are the majority in all aspects of life, both civil and religious. Now, they want to shove their ways down the throats of others. They act more like the ancient Romans everyday.

Speaking of Founding Fathers,
George Washington would regularly leave service before communion until, after being admonished by a rector, he ceased attending at all on communion Sundays. Historians and biographrers continue to debate the degree he can be counted as a Christian. Certainly he and other Founding Fathers were not fundamentalists and not literalists.

Funny how this is such as issue at school while I never see kids praying in a circle at the mall, the grocery store, outside or inside the movies, at the fast food joints, at the library, at the beach, on ski trips, or anywhere else kids gather. I'm starting think this is a phychological issue, like a forbidden fruit, whereby when something is denied it is wanted even more. But not a phychological issue for the kids but instead one for the parents. Frankly I don't think the kids give a hoot.

As someone mentioned earlier, this is an adult generated contraversy and its mainly adults arguing it. Meanwhile the kids are getting into the liquor cabinet, having sex or other things the parents should really be worried about. Exhibit A - Bristol Palin. Just how would meeting at the pole have changed her direction?

People like Walker and all the posing high schoolers should spend more time reading Matthew and less time as the Pharisees and hypocrites.

These are cowards. Cowards who are afraid to follow the Bible and pray as commanded, but need a gang around them. Or, just as likely, they have a political agenda- which is even more damnable.

Jesus had an opinion on this:

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6

Not every evangelical is hot for a Muslim genocide. When I compared George Bush to a Muslim anti-Mohammed (two wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan plus saber rattling in Iran) I wasn't very pleased with the idea of all those civilian causalties nor occupying two countries no matter what the indigenous populations thought of it.

Well at least George Bush served his eight years and left.

I heard about ObaMABUSh the documentary scheduled for November. I've got to see that....

Oh sorry. My post was meant for Mr. MARVIN HIER. Thanks.

I'm in my early 50's, and As very young lad, me Twin and I thought it 'PROPER' to pray on knees at bed-side and when we got up. And when we went to [Secular] school we would all goosebumply sing the pledge of allegiance to the U.S. flag. But in our hearts it was also the Israeli flag that we sang to too.

In a way; it was like praying 3-times a day, instead of praying 5 or 6 times a day like the Islamic Ummah must do. Which personally is a big waste of Time; Hence why islam is backwards; but want to steal our, not their technology's, since they loose/lost so much time. Add-up 15 minutes X 5 X 365 X average life of say 70 years and see how much productivity, opportunity, knowledge... is lost or could've been gained?

But as I naturally became UN-Illusioned or un-Dillusioned and slowly aware of me Human reality it was then that I started to ESCAPE my "Jewish" Superstitions of which I Misled meself to believe in, as if REAL. Angels this; Highway to heaven that., Talking burning bush, spliting water etc.. But what stopped me [from Believing] most was when I questioned The TEN COMMANDMENTS. When I became a SCOUT realized Humans do not need to be reminded to be "GOOD" (after a certain age), Do not "STEEL" nor "COVET" (or be Jealous of) etc..

My Parents, worked like dogs, attended the Synogogue (which was demolished under Secular NYC Emminent Domain Laws) It looked like King Solomons Temple; only on the 'High Holy Day' of YOMKIPPUR [Attonement|w/Fasting], but on Jewish New Years [Rosh|HEADaSHANNA|YEAR] it is/was considerred a 'Blessing' to listen to the sound of the "SHOFAR"|RAMSHORN TRUMPET] until closing.

Yet Today; I'm still conscious of YOMKIPPUR and I don't need a headscarve anymore to remind me or Do Tiffilin in the Morning or wear Tzitziks on undergowns to remind one of Our-Reality [LIFE is a Miracle and not a Sin to be here today]. So I thank my Anscestors for being Strong/smart and good or lucky Survivors., hence Why we are here today. So

YOMKIPPUR reminds me of the HOLOCAUST; and since I and me siblings never had the joy to enjoy, kiss, touch, love, hugg with Natural Grandparents, uncles/aunts or even Cousins; Unlike big-mouth "AH-MAD-MAN-OF-JIHAD", Irans Islamic President

whom also married a 9 year old girl like his Ayotollah boss's, who enjoy their Entire-Family structure and whom hath been enjoying what that "Catholic' christian HITLER [Irans Buddy, not only E. Orthodox christian STALIN; and whom Muslims helped during WW2] unjustly took away but is Satanically still in Denial That it [Shoah] happened.

My Father [May He & Family Rest in Peace] told me how Germans, French & Italians would congreagte on Sundays; Pray, Sing & swallow the Eucharists and then go outside and jump-start the Annihillation of a religious-naive & defencless & trapped HUMANITY!

fr thornwalker1:

>You, sir, need to merely walk around Arlington Cemetery and look at the headstones that are topped with a Star of David. These soldiers indeed loved their country.

ITA. I will never forget the extremely OFFENSIVE bumper sticker I saw once that said "I support our CHRISTIAN troops". What about those who are not Christian? Didn't she "support" them?

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.

- H.L Mencken

This thing also has a big e-marketing aspect to it. When you go to the "Resources" part of their site, there are all kinds of special shirts, t-shirts, etc. you're encouraged to buy. You do have to wonder about this kind of "religious" activity when you see the Visa and Mastercard symbols up there.

Unfortunately, no matter where I am in the US, I am in the minority since I am a non-Christian. At my work, I am bombarded with symbols of other's devotion, be it jewelry, screen savers, posters or even greetings! And I work for the Federal government. It was worse growing up. Public school was rife with all of these things and more. The daily announcements always included Fellowship of Christian Athletes, bible study, etc. By not displaying religious paraphenalia, I am automatically an outsider. The irony is, my ancestors came to this country for religious freedom and I am still the outsider because I choose not to inflict my viewpoint on others.

I think meeting at the pole is a great idea for teens. it will prime the boys for becoming firemen and the girls strippers! But seriously folks, I think the whole idea of forcing religion into school or public life is driven by insecurities of faith. If someone trully believed, and had full confidence in their own faith, they could relax and allow others to think as they wished and allow everyone to find their own belief's in their own time.
But because they are unsure, they need others to believe as they do, in order to convince themselves. It's like when you open a jar of something and it smells bad. the first thing you do is to try to get someone else to smell it too.

AmzgGrce wrote:
"Christians do want to convert the entire world, but not at the point of a Sword/Gun."

Really? Why are ALL the fundies invariably hot as hussies for every new war idea that comes off the Beltway? Why, given that Jesus was a pacifist, are they ALL uber-militarists? Why is it, given that the Bible talks of beating swords into ploughshares, that every "Person of Faith" always wants to increase military spending? Why, since we're allegedly all God's children, are US Christians always super-nationalistic and xenophobic?

Why is it that, of the dozen or so times I've seen comments on this website calling for a genocide of Muslims, EVERY SINGLE ONE turned out to come from an "evangelical"?

Some kids have been "arrested" and detained by the school administrations simply for praying over their meals at lunch. The Constitution of the United States protects an individuals right to pray anywhere anytime, school included and no authority can say it is illegal to do so.
______________________________

Can you provide proof of school administrators stopping children from saying grace? If true, it's despicable.

I chose not to participate in hazing rituals when I was in high school. I was told I was effecting class cohesion, and that just because it was voluntary didn't mean I should opt-out.

I worry about this type of event because I had that experience. I stood up and said no, but I know others in my class didn't want to participate but were afraid of the bullying they'd be subjected to if they didn't.

I'm not saying the kids who do participate would be or are bullies, but kids, especially teens, want to look well to their friends. I'm afraid there would be many who participated to be part of the crowd rather than because they were moved by belief.

While I find the concept reasonable (I am worried about the social pressures) I'd echo many above comments about how the Texas Baptists would feel if a group of Wiccans gathered around the flagpole every day. Or, worse, a group of atheists gathered to talk about how they think religion is foolishness.

Thank you for posting a reasonable, workable suggestion. Like many commenters, I don't understand why it is so important that young people pray on the grounds of the school, rather than at home, at church, or in some other neutral place. I suspect it's a knee jerk reaction to constitutional limitations. But if they absolutely MUST pray at school, the above is a reasonable way to do so without getting too far into coercion and other constitutional troubles.

They aren't just "praying with others." They are praying in a circle that grows larger as young people try to fit into a social circle that is smiled upon by teachers and administrators. And the flagpole is usually right in the middle of the entrance sidewalk, forcing others to walk around them. Hey, no problem. I don't mind veering to avoid a traffic jam. But don't tell me these people are praying to God. The ones closest to the pole are kids with leadership tendencies in their genes who desperately need followers as well as to be seen as better than their classmates. The ones at the outer rings are the inner circle's followers, not God's.

As you and other intelligent adults know, children feel pressure from other children when a large group or even the majority of kids is doing something. It's easy for an adult like yourself to call for fairness and safeguards, but the reality is that teachers do show favoritism, kids do pressure each other and say things, and it amounts in the end to religious oppression. Wouldn't the most christian thing (we are talking about christian prayer) be to respect all the children by avoiding it altogether, and pray in private like the bible commends us to do?

It doesn't surprise me that the wacky Baptists want to meet at the flagpole. Their religion is already about five-sixths naked nationalism.

They're convinced that the US is God's special nation, and for many of them the whole "patriotism" thing blurs into the "faith" thing in one big illogical mess that usually expresses itself in calls to use the US Armed Forces to wipe out all the Muslims.

PS - I hope they don't gather under the flagpole in thunderstorms. It would be tragically ironic if a bunch of wacky Baptist end-timers got struck by lightning.

"The annual event leads students to gather around their school flagpole for prayer on the fourth Wednesday of September. First begun by Texas Baptists almost two decades ago, "See You at the Pole" has spread across the country, ..."

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Let's get one thing straight... the "event" doesn't lead anyone. The (Texas Baptist) adults who created the event are the one's doing the leading and they are using their kids (and hoping to use ours) as pawns in this scheme which seeks to challenge church-state separation and confuse Christianity with patriotism.

If this event was really the kids' idea, I'd have no problem with it. Kids have freedom of speech, assembly, and religion as well but this idea was clearly invented by adults with a theocratic political agenda so I'm just not buying the notion that it's just the kids expressing themselves freely.

Which religious opinions are allowed to be spoken out load at this event and who decides which one(s)?

I wonder if a Satanist student would have the opportunity to say her prayer at this event also? After all, Satan is a god too.

I always find it remarkable that those coming from the 'religious' point of view in these discussions CANNOT make their argument without referencing THEIR religious beliefs (read FAITH, not FACT) in support of their conclusions. For once and for all, would educators please start teaching kids what a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT is!!!

And, btw, pray on your own time, not during school time.

OH JEZUS PLEEZEE , SCHOOLS ARE FOR LEARNING AND CHURCHES ARE FOR PRAYER!
Posted by: willemkraal | September 22, 2009 7:32 AM
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That's pretty stupid.

These endless debates between believers and non-believers are tedious beyond belief. You wanna pray? Good, then think up whatever you want inside your head. You want to hang out with fellow believers? Fine, go to church (for which I underwrite your taxes). But a public facility, designed for secular purposes - such as learning science, rationality and the benefits of civic government over theocracy -- should be used for those purposes only. Separation of church and state benefits everyone and should be very stricted enforced.

@kuato -- Get in touch with the local chapter of the ACLU. You do not have to put up with prosyletizers and overt religious activity in the workplace. They will be happy to talk to you about your work condition. Freedom of religion also requires freedom from religion.

As long as there are math tests, there will be prayer.

Didn't Jesus say something about where and how to pray? I seem to remember something about going into a room and locking the door, that those who pray publicly have their reward from the crowd and not from God.

Prayer is not about getting something from the divine goody bag. Rather, it is about developing an inner peace and closeness to God. You can't get that from making a spectacle of yourself in prayer. Witness needs to be quiet action, not a publicity stunt.

In Rockingham County Va schools, my kids brought home a permission slip for them to leave school grounds weekly, during school hours, to attend bible study. While this is voluntary, it certainly is injecting religion into public schools. How is this legal?

fr the article:

>...Let the students pray, but let the government keep out of it.

Students already CAN pray at school, quietly, SILENTLY, whenever they wish, so as to not offend others' faiths/beliefs. It's really sad that the foaming rightwingers can't see that.

If I ask a group to meet me at the library, am I saying we are praying to the books, or at the parking lot are we going to pray for the cars?

Of course the absurdity visible. But meeting at the flagpole is a well recognized place at every school (for now at least) and as to praying for the country, why not, praying for wisdom in our leaders, and the hope that they will act on Christian priciples not simply 'whatever feels good.'

Certainly such activity is not seen by reasonable people as threatening - unless you are of the "do whatever pleases me" belief.

Again Christians do want to convert the entire world, but not at the point of a Sword/Gun. We do not want to force religion on anyone - that is not what our God taught us though his Son. Belief is God is a personal thing but those who want to drive any appearance of religion from our streets and public places are never going to succeed. Piety in public or worshiping the flag or this country is not what flagpole gatherings are about, they are about letting other Christian students know that they aren't alone. A silent gathering at the flagpole could be just as effective in achieving this purpose it's up to the students to decide. The place of meeting is universally understood until schools no longer fly a flag, then we are all in serious trouble.

Spirituality is what is important - not the dogma and hatred/fear of others who "believe differently" which is omnipresent in Religion.

It used to be funny to think that someone could invent a new religion.

Sincerely,

Jesus H. Christ
Mohamed
Abraham
Charlie Wiggles
Buddha

I'm not exactly sure why having a flag on a flagpole automatically equals idol worship, isn't the nature of idolatry that the subject of the prayer and the focus of the prayer is not God?
I think it is absolutely possible that the students are coming together and putting their country first before God, being patriots before being Christians (that would be idolatry). But I don't think that that is automatically the case, just because they meet at the flagpole. More than likely it is just a convenient rallying point that exists on nearly every campus.
Typically, it is just Christians coming together, praying to God (not a flag), for each other and their school.

One the other hand, I do not think that the American flag a symbol of nationality and exclusion is something that the Church is compatible with, and perhaps a poor place to rally a prayer meeting. But if the students want to pray for their nation and its people why stop them. The last thing you could call it is idolatry.

Why should we be nice to religion? It is insanity, in all its variation it is true insanity. Primitive, barbaric, juvenile, and just plain silly. If it weren't for the horrendous acts committed in the name of religion, we'd ignore it as the silly thing it otherwise is.

Imagine yourself being nice to an astrology-believer who insists the congress pass laws validating their beliefs, and suppressing all others. What a crock that would be, and what a crock it all is.

Here's a prayer for you, Mr Walker: Dear God, please help our students learn and escape the ignorance of religion. Please let them come to the books" Amen.

AGREED. PRAY ALL DAY OF YOU WANT... GO AHEAD... FEEL FREE... But there's no need to force any religious belief on others by setting aside time during daily events to do it. If you feel you want to pray at a specific time, DO IT. Silent praying is every bit as effective as halting what you're doing to do it out loud. NO DIFFERENCE.

Why is so much comment warranted? If they wish to pray, who are you to deny them? If you don't like it, shutup!

eaglehawkaroundsince1937 sounds like the typical ignorant Neanderthals on the right. JUST TRY A TELLIN' ME THAT I CANTS PRAY AND I'LL STICK THAT THAR BOOT UP YER...

What an ignoramous you are, Mr. Eaglehawkfalconvulture. Stopping others from praying is not the issue here, gramps. Psst... here's a lil lesson for ya... did you know you can say a prayer anywhere anytime... even if it's not said out loud - - and you know what - - god hears it. Shh... that's between us. Now go take a nap.

Calboxer:

Really??? jdsher00 -
"Even the most radical right-wing Christians don't talk like that about people whose beliefs they disagree with."

Extremist fandamentalists, I hesitate to call them Christians, prosyletize that atheists will go to hell. That their version of a judging and damning Jesus is the only way to salvation. They call for the destruction of Islam, holy war etc.

----

Your post was very levelheaded and reasonable. I'm not a Christian either (I'm a Jew) and I'm not a fan of See You at the Pole. However, I stand by what I wrote. I've never heard a conservative Christian, even those who believe I'm going to hell, talk with the complete and total rudeness that some of the atheist posters here have done. I'm well aware of the right-wingers' beliefs about me, and those beliefs are extremely offensive to me. Yet there's still something to be said for polite discourse. I can't remember the last time I've had my beliefs, my intelligence and my personhood mocked, trashed and vilified by a conservative Christian, in as many words, like some of the name-calling atheists on this thread have done. I was just saying those posters need to calm down, and they do. They're not representing atheism well by sitting there calling everyone else nasty names.

As a gay Jew I'm here to tell you those name-callers are somewhat less tolerant than the Southern Baptist Convention. They speak the truth, and only they speak the only truth, and anyone who doesn't see things their way is an evil subhuman who is to be personally scapegoated with all the world's ills, who couldn't possibly be intelligent or else they wouldn't believe what they believe, and who does not have the right to be treated with respect. It seems like almost every religion thread I read there are atheists who call everyone else nasty names and mock and vilify everyone of religious belief. As annoying as See You at the Pole is, at least it's not a hate rally against all people who hold religious beliefs. I'd hate to see what these name-callers would do if they had power.

By no means am I saying all atheists are like that. But all the people who are like that, on this thread, are atheists. They need to stop preaching the Only Truth, calm down, and if they can't tolerate others' beliefs they should at least try to reach the level of grudging, insincere politeness that the Christian right demonstrates. Nobody's day is made more pleasant by open insults, and no light is shed by them.

I will pray any time any place any way. Just try to stop me and I will put my boot up your As-. In all of my 72 years I have never heard such drivel as this. Amen, dam-t

I really think some of these people are making it more of a big deal and taking it too personally. anyway, if you want to show up and pray with your peeps great, if you don't want to, also great. . .its that simple. Everyone has an opinion but there's a time for debate and a time for a protest. Seriously, some of you are just plain mean and hateful. And some of you are just jaded from some fake-hypocrite and think everyone in a certain group are bad. Whatever the case, some of you really need to lay off the coffee and get a life.

The USA is a pluralistic secular democracy.

What it isn't, is a theocracy. That's Iran. Pray at home.

The First Amendment prohibition against the government sponsoring religion was not just limited to preventing a Church of England circumstance. Nice try at the revisionism by the pseudo-Christian reich, but the founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing and wrote the amendment in plain English.

As for the pole praying - have at it. As long as you are not shoving your beliefs down my throat, I could care less.

I wish that I had seen this yesterday shortly after it was posted.

The high school students in Texas who started this "See You at the Pole" claim that this was an original idea of theirs. But, they got this "idea" after attending a church sponsored youth retreat which was led by adults.

As a former public school teacher and also a Sunday school teacher as well as a volunteer with church youth, I learned how to influence teenagers to do things so the ended up thinking that it was their original idea to do it. I didn't force them to do anything; but, I put an emphasis on what I would have liked them to do (while giving other choices, too), which of course, they freely chose.

Unless the school has its own flag on that flag pole, looking at a photo of students praying in a circle around the Flag of the United States of America makes it look like they are worshiping that the USA Flag.

I ask, "Why don't they have a circle around the school or walk around the whole school property while they are praying?"

Many of the parents who want prayer and Bible reading in public school don't even pray WITH nor study the Bible WITH their children at home on a daily basis.

Hey BeauTochs: Christians were - a mere few hundred years ago - where Islam is now. Do the rest a favor and stop being HOLIER THAN THOU. Ahem - DARK AGES... The Inquisition... Salem Witch Trials... KKK... Anti-civil rights movements... Evangelical Fundamentalism.... ever hear of it these wonderful things all in the name of Christianity??? Islam is going through the same thing now.

Say all you want about what the bible teaches us or how much "better" one religion is than another.. blaa blaa... but what you fail to grasp is the fact that FOLLOWERS of all of these religions (GASP - yes, Christianity too!) who are so dogmatic in their righteous beliefs that they're inherently suspicious/intolerant of all others - - do a GREAT job of perverting your religion in the name of all sorts of horrific and hateful causes - only a few of which are listed above.

You freaks who just love to wear your religion on your sleeves rather than keep it personal between you and god, all need to use your GOD-GIVEN brains for just a second if you can - and think about this... if god knows everything, why then do you have to demonstrate your beliefs to all around you? Are you not secure in your beliefs?

If praying around a flagpole that is flying the Stars and Stripes isn't idol worship, then I don't know what is?

Isn't that one of those commandments we keep hearing about?

Maybe they need to post them at school as well so all the pious Christians can remember not to violate their own rules.

Good grief.

AnotherContrarian actually wrote: "By the way, any minimum research will lead one to realize that the intent of the First Amendment is to keep the government from forming a "Church of the United States" like the Church of England and backing one religion over another. The Founders never intended to excise all religious practice and influence from society and create a completely secular society. That is a modern perversion. Thus Christians need to make a stand."

The government does not need to make some overt legal proclamation that xyz religion is the new church of the USA to violate the 1st amendment. The government only needs to allow religion to be promoted under the law. That could be handing out bibles in school for example. You don't need a law that says bibles must be handed out in school before the amendment is violated, you only need the law that sets up schools and defines how they are run to allow bibles to be handed out or not stop them from being handed out.

You can't have your cake and eat it too - You can't say there is no law allowing school sponsored religious events so there is no violation of the 1st amendment when a school, under the legislation that runs the schools, allows sponsored religious events.

I grew up in a small city in West Texas. In elementary school, we had daily Christian prayers led by the principal over the PA system. In middle school, we had a mandatory assembly in the auditorium where the Gideons gave everyone a New Testament. By high school, the US Supreme Court had put a lid on some of the worst religious excesses, yet just a few years ago Texas Governor Rick Perry concluded a prayer in a public school with "In Jesus name we pray."

Never doubt that Southern religious fundamentalists like those who started "See You At The Pole" have every intention of taking over the country. They know that indoctrinating youth is the best way to start. This is why I can never believe the supposed innocence of the "See You" movement, because I know where and by whom it was started.

Praying around a flag pole is an abomination against Christianity and America. Matthew 6:6 guides Christians to pray privately, in a small room. The Bible warns against worshiping graven images, and makes clear the distinction between those things that are Caesar's and those that are God's. This misguided effort flies in the face of all those prohibitions.

When you think about it, praying to a flag is ultimately a very socialist activity... that is, it totally blends government activity with religious worship. This is exactly what our many of our ancestors were seeking to flee when they left England.

But I say to this group... sure, rally at the flagpole, as long as you're also willing to have the government start regulating your church's income, your hymnals, your confessionals, your baptisms, your sermons. Because once you actually start breaking down the barrier between church and state, the road goes both ways. Are you really sure you want that?

I can only speak from personal experience about See You at the Pole in my high school...but many posters here seem concerned about schools allowing students time to gather and pray during the school day, thus excluding all those who do not wish to participate. This event was held yearly in my high school, but it was held before the school day began. Students could choose to arrive outside the school building approximately 1 hour before school started to pray. I never attended an event, so I cannot speak to what was said or the attitude that prevailed during the event, but the school's administrators were hardly favoring Christian students above others and no meetings or events were ever held during the school hours.

I remember "See You At the Pole". All my live I have been Agnostic (culturally Jewish). Even as a child, I was agnostic. I found this to be inappropriate.

Someone commented that with this logic there oughtn't be any school clubs at all, religious, political, or otherwise. What this individual is failing to see is these clubs meet AFTER school. That or before-- my high school did a monthly prayer breakfast before the school day began.

However, during the school day, this kind of activity is NOT appropriate. It disrupts the logistics of the school day-- children don't receive enough school as it is. Praying at a flagpole is not a justifiable reason to be pulled from class. Do it after school.

The question is WHY pray at school? Why not ppray at home or church where religion is taught and observed?

As a Buddhist, I do not pray in the public, I pray in thbe privacy of my own home.

Patrick

Have to agree with others that these "See You At The Pole-rs" would not be so understanding of someone who bowed to Mecca or said a Wiccan chant on school hours.

And I agree that this is another attempt to thwart the separation of church & state, simply out of defiance and arrogance, not a *need* for prayer on school grounds.

cntnulprze wrote: "Oh,my! Children gathering around a flag pole to (of all things) pray! What a shame! They should be sitting around complaining about how unfair life is. Bickering about whether God loves "Christians" more than anyone else. PLEASE give me a break. If the worst thing our children can do is come together and pray regardless of denomination, religious affiliation, race, color or creed, then HALLELUJAH! PRAISE GOD, JEHOVAH, ALLAH, etc. It's the adults who are causing the friction not the children."

Well, I have to agree, its the adults that are causing the issue. If some kids, on their own, decided before the bell rings to meet at the flagpole to pray, more power to them. And I'm sure it happens every day.

But when the aduts organize this as a nationwide event, ask principals to allow the event, set rules for the event like no parents allowed and any kid can come to pray, then it becomes something else. And from what I have seen with this issue as well as many others, its never about "allowing" children to pray. Its about "leading" children in prayer. Its about defining what they pray and to whom. Its about creating a overtly christian culture in school, with the twisted idea that this will stop school violence, school bullying, student sex, etc.

Yes, its the adults who are causing all of this, and they should stop and be thankful they live in a nation that allows all religions to practice freely without coersion from government in any way. Their children are protected from teacher's of other faiths prostelitizing. Their children are not told their religion is silly by some authority figure. These adults are allowed to shape their children in any religious mold they want, without government interference. Yet this is exactly the opposite from what they want.

It's time to start taxing these political preachers. Why do they get representation WITHOUT taxation? This political propoganda they are promoting in the churches is fine--let's tax them.

Hey, teabaggers, you don't mind a little new taxes do you? For GOD??

"No coversion at the point of a sword/gun is ever done by a Christian."

"This is probably one of the most ridiculous, factually inaccurate statements ever posted in this forum as anyone who has studied even the barest minimum of the history of Christianity should be able to understand."

! ! !

Anyone attempting to convert someone at the point of a sword or gun is NOT following the teachings or the will of Jesus Christ. Christianity teaches no such thing, no matter how many deluded people may have acted in that manner while claiming to do so in the name of Jesus Christ (and irrespective of how many people cannot or will not comprehend that important distinction).

Consider Islam, by contrast. The prophet and the holy book of that religion openly advocate violence and death for infidels (i.e., non-believers), teaching and otherwise imploring adherents to kill the unclean unbelievers should they refuse conversion.

I am bemused to note that, were the issue Muslims or any other group attempting to assemble, probably most if not all the non-Christians posting here would be peculiarly (hypocritically) silent. As for me, follower of Jesus Christ, I believe in the right of others to their own religious assemblies, and I do not hate those who do not share my faith.

"You evangelicals just can't move on can you? The constitution separates church from state. Public schools are state owned and operated. Go pray at home rather than trying to attach your personal ritual to a "patriotic" symbol such as a flag pole.
Pray at church. Pray at home. Why must you be so "in our faces" about all this."

The Constitution separates goverment and religious activity but not individual religious beliefs or practice. A citizen does not cease to be protected by the Constitution's protection to freely practice certain religious acts just by being in a school. Many school officials go too far and think they have to ban any religious expression period like prayer over a lunch, a tee shirt with a religious message ect.

Some kids have been "arrested" and detained by the school administrations simply for praying over their meals at lunch. The Constitution of the United States protects an individuals right to pray anywhere anytime, school included and no authority can say it is illegal to do so. Only organized prayer during an organized official school funtion is banned because it brings an official stamp of approval. Students can pray by themselves or in groups (say during Bible club meeetings) and they break no law.

By the way, any minimum research will lead one to realize that the intent of the First Amendment is to keep the government from forming a "Church of the United States" like the Church of England and backing one religion over another. The Founders never intended to excise all religious practice and influence from society and create a completely secular society. That is a modern perversion.

Thus Christians need to make a stand.

This soooo creeps me out. Are they worshiping the flag now? Just what the world needs--another crop of revivalists to turn all our public discussions into a bible meeting.

What is it about fundamentalist Christians that makes them gravitate toward expressing their faith through the use of pagan fertility rituals? Hey . . . no harm, no foul, but I just thought I would point out the irony in groups of Jesus junkies all over the country holding hands and praying in a circle around a giant phallus. Now THAT'S funny.

Mr Walker can wax effusively all he wants about how wonderful praying at the pole is, but this is a classic example of having ones' cake and eating it too.

Basically, this represents the efforts of an organized Christian religion in actively supporting what is supposed to be a spontaneous, UNORGANIZED and particularly conspicuous prayer session.

If it is conducted during school hours, it is obviously disruptive to education, both for participants and non-participants. But Mr. Walker says "hands off" to the school staff, effectively saying that the students are in charge of disrupting normal class instruction as they see fit.

Other posters have passionately and effectively advocated that prayer is a personal relationship that can happen anytime, anywhere. That is truly spontaneous and unorganized, not this self righteous attempt to orchestrate the religious activities of students in public schools.

Michael_A1, writes: "Didn't the supreme court rule some years ago that school sanctioned prayer was unconstitutional? "
-----------------------------------------------------------
iamweaver responded: Yes, they did. But this is not sanctioned. In fact, the author specifically mentions that even indirect authority figures like parents should not be involved in an event like this."
-----------------------------------------------------------

I have to disagree. Once the principal determines the spot where the prayers will be held, and when it can be held, it becomes a school sponsored event. And considering the definition of this event is a christian gathering, it seems that the principal is sponsoring a specific religious event. And even if the principal tries to get around this by saying the prayer meeting is open to all students to pray as they wish, it is not different than doing the same in an auditorium during an assembley, which I think the supremes would have a big issue with.

Our forefathers were very concerned about having a government establish religion. Remember, they lived under that tyrrany and feared it more than enything else. If people cannot live in an open society where religion is not promoted by government then they need to find another place to live. America is not about shoving religious doctrine down people's throats, nor having government establish religious events no matter how open. Its about freedom, and those who advocate prayer in school are not for freedom, or for the ideals of America. A theocracy is what they want and why we need to stand up to their lies and tactics to subvert the law and the Constitution to spread their religion at any cost.

Oh,my! Children gathering around a flag pole to (of all things) pray! What a shame! They should be sitting around complaining about how unfair life is. Bickering about whether God loves "Christians" more than anyone else.

PLEASE give me a break. If the worst thing our children can do is come together and pray regardless of denomination, religious affiliation, race, color or creed, then HALLELUJAH! PRAISE GOD, JEHOVAH, ALLAH, etc. It's the adults who are causing the friction not the children.

"Prov:22:6: Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

"Jn:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

God never put labels on us. We did. We think we know more than God. Well, I trust the Word of God and hold dear the teachings of the Bible. I believe Jesus is Lord. That's my choice. No one is mandated by me to choose as I choose. God IS the Righteous Judge and HE WILL decide in the end. What is so awful about LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. Let God be true and every man be a liar. Now have a wondrously blessed day and LOVE somebody.

A repost from SouthernerInDC...
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret." -Matthew 6:5-6

See you at the pole is exactly this. Its intention, pure and simple, is to "be seen by others." Jesus, I think, was not talking about praying in public in general, but very specifically praying in public in order to show off. And this is an hypocracy clearly condemned by jesus himself. Why would Pastor Walker encourage young Christians to commit outright hypocracy and disobey Jesus? I have taught my children to pray in private, especially at school. I take the advice of Jeus very seriously, as opposed to Pastor Walker and those millions of parents encouraging their kids into this hypocritical activity.

I believe in school prayer too!! But they aren't including my belief. I believe in the god Zuba Buba. And everyone should pray to him in public.

This is the prayer..
Oh Zuba Buba, please release me from all this non-sense. Oh Zuba Buba, teach me to be tolerant of others. Oh Zuba Buba, give me a break!

Call your congressmen now! Get Zuba Buba prayers into the public. Remember, this country was founded on the principles of Zuba Buba. It's your constitutional right!

Michael_A1, writes:
"Didn't the supreme court rule some years ago that school sanctioned prayer was unconstitutional? "
-----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, they did. But this is not sanctioned. In fact, the author specifically mentions that even indirect authority figures like parents should not be involved in an event like this. Your post, and many others, emphasizes only one part of the first amendment, and conveniently ignores the latter half.

Not only must the government avoid preferring one religion over another, it is also prevented from inhibiting the free exercise of religion. That means that Christians, Buddhists, Shinto, what have you can pray individually or in a group as long as it doesn't interfere with school activities.

Ask yourself why the adults behind this new idea are not themselves meeting at flagpoles outside their offices? Why are these people not complaining to their bosses that they need to evangelize within the office, to spread the word? In other words, why is this so necessary for school kids and so unnecessary for their parents?

The answer is simple. Its not about these parents or their kids, its about getting their christian message to the other kids, who have minds that can still be indoctrinated, who rarely question authority, who succumb to peer pressure much easier than adults. This is why such events must happen on school property. Doing this at the mall would make no sense for these people and is why we don't see it at the mall, or bowling alley or after school as a neighborhood activity. Once this becomes a sanctioned event you can be sure parents will advertize to get the word out that the cool kids meet at the flag pole so be there.

Keep your children close and watch for these "christians" who believe they are out to save your child. We look at people who claim UFOs are abducting people and question their sanity but for some reason we do not question the sanity of those who work to change your child's belief system to prevent them from being abducted at death and sent to hell. Since this is their belief, and their belief requires they work to save others, this will not stop, so we must always be on guard to prevent them from violating the Constitution to get at our kids. They have already corrupted the pledge and the national motto. We either uphold the Consitutional protections against state sponsored religion or we lose the revolution our forefathers fought and died for.

I'm not convinced that this is Constitutional at any level. Even if it is, it's not effective (at obviously recruiting additional converts) and it teeters on dangerous.

First, your comment that "[s]chool officials are not allowed to prohibit the meeting, but they can impose reasonable guidelines," is flatly wrong. You are attempting to veil the "See You At The Flagpole" event in a shroud of secularism where students just so happen to all be praying. There is no reason the school needs to let kids go anywhere during the school day and they are free to bar the meeting at will.

Second, you have literally no ability to stop anyone from doing anything if you somehow pull this off. If kids want to go out and talk, play, etc., it's all in. Why? Because the only way to limit their activity is to force them into a moment of silence. We know that silence can be assertive conduct and will thus fall into the First Amendment's protections. You will not be able to compel silence (see the dozens of cases where the "moment of silence" was permitted at the beginning of the day) and thus cannot limit the student's behavior.

Finally onto the danger. This country has suffered from an ongoing fusion which has sought to bind nationalism (e.g. the flag) with religion. The results have been disastrous and have often become manifest in an overly aggressive foreign policy, a paternalistic and homophobic domestic policy, and an absent client policy. We do not need to be assisting this fusion by encouraging kids to pray to a flag....

If your kid wants to pray in school, it is true that the school cannot stop him/her. That is the child's right and I would fight to the death to defend it. This is something else, this is an attempt to use public schools to proselytize and to build a movement out of their religion.

I had a long conversation with a woman I work with who strongly desires prayer in school. When I brought up the idea that her kids and others could always pray privately, that open school prayer is not necessary, she told me that the very reason for school prayer should be to reach the non-religious students, who (in her view) "need" it. That it is not really for the kids who are devout. Well there you have it - at least in the view of this woman, it is all about evangelizing and "improving" non-religious children.

And that's exactly why I think it is not a good idea.

You evangelicals just can't move on can you? The constitution separates church from state. Public schools are state owned and operated. Go pray at home rather than trying to attach your personal ritual to a "patriotic" symbol such as a flag pole.

Pray at church. Pray at home. Why must you be so "in our faces" about all this.

Kudos to FYIColumbiaMD for this:

"From the 'See You at the Pole' official website:
'It's about you coming together and laying aside all of the labels and groups for one day, to simply engage with God in prayer and connect with fellow Christians in unity around the flag pole.'
Note the operative word is 'Christians'..."

If this is to be only christian, then this should not be allowed. If it is to include everyone, then ALL religions of any size population (all of those 'alternate' religions), would have to be included. Even FSM would have to be included - any religion that anyone in the US subscribes to, would have to be allowed. There are hundreds of religions, and probably more born every day. The "See you at the pole" is clearly meant for christians only, which is excluding many others.

Didn't the supreme court rule some years ago that school sanctioned prayer was unconstitutional?

I also agree with the poster that said the religious right tries to tie the flag to religion - this is an attempt to smear the folks that don't participate as non-patriotic. I find this ironic since this country was founded in part for religious freedoms, hence the separation of church and state.

Riddle me this: how many christians would be content with laws based on judiasm or muslim beliefs? (I'm guessing zero).

Christianity has for years been an excluding club (not exclusive, excluding) - women are less then men; the uber-faithful are more moral than others, etc etc.. Not all secular people are bad, not all religious people are good, but excluding anyone is most definately un-American.

What a horrible activity! A large group of students standing around a public school flagpole?

Clearly, this is Evangelical Christianity at its worst: recruiting new members, growing at all costs. Ego-driven, membership-driven. Increase chuch attendance, regardless of virtue or civility.

What is the purpose of praying so publically in front of other non-Christian children. To humiliate the others? To make them feel excluded? Or to pressure them to join your church?

Several churches have significant drives to growth: Mormons, Catholics, Evang. Christians. Why not just let your kids grow up and make their own decision about faith when the are mature and have fully-developed brains?

I thank God for the Jews because they (1) do not try to recruit new members; and (2) stand up to this kind of flagpole cr*p and take legal action when it goes too far.

Evangelicals should be ashamed of themselves for showing-off in public like this.

Does anyone remember the song based on a Bible verse called "Turn, Turn, Turn." There is a time and place for everything.

School is not the time or place for organized, public prayer that is encouraged by a national event. Students, no matter what their religious affiliation, should feel safe while being educated.

For non-Christian students, a publicly encouraged Christian prayer event creates something of a "Tyranny of the majority" where the non-Christian students will feel less than comfortable in their school.

First, those demanding prayer in school are those who WANT teachers to lead the prayers. They want their children inculcated in their version of christianity every minute of their lives. Telling these people that their kids can pray at a flagpole will placate them as much as a moment of silence before class has. Its not about freedom to worship for them, its about continual indoctrination of their children and how the public schools are not doing it.

The other issue is saving souls. Evangelicals and some other sects believe it is their DUTY to save others for Christ. That means confronting students, getting them to pray, evangelizing, telling them they are headed to hell, etc. The idea that these kids will not point out to others that they are doomed is fanciful.

If this were just about prayer there would be no issue since as many here have said there are ample opportunities for kids to pray before, during and after school. The issue never has been about personal, silent prayer or even group prayer. Its about adult lead indoctrination of children. Once you understand that you understand why this issue continues to fester with no resolution for those who say they only want their kids to pray during school. They want much more.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret." -Matthew 6:5-6

Christianity, like other religions using an eternal torture as a stick, is a protection racket.

Yahweh Soprano is going to break your knees forever if you don't fork over the dough and kiss his ring ... or whatever he's extending to be kissed.

"I'd actually wager that many of those having commented thus far have only a meager (and likely caricatured) comprehension of Christianity."

Oh, you mean, not brainwashed since birth? I'll cop to that.

All one needs do is open their eyes to see the devastation Christianity has wrought, from Bush's version of the Crusades to C Street politicians claiming a separate morality that condones any means necessary to exert power.

Have Christians done good deeds? Of course. So have non-Christians. There's certainly no monopoly on mercy among Christians, quite the contrary.

And on balance, far too few of those claiming to be Christians live the way Christ preached. Mostly, it's about preserving a patriarchal heirarchy and status quo in wielding power.

We even have televangelist charlatans in high-production value megachurches telling us Jesus wants us to be rich so please send in your last dollar in tithe. Evidently these people and their hundreds of thousands of followers haven't read the Gospels.

You can meet at the pole all you want, but Christianity is still a racket. Perhaps it's more appropriate symbolically to meet at the ditch.

I do wonder how the Christians would feel if some Satan worshipers wanted to pray at the flagpole at the same time. Or even on another day.

What if some native American students wanted to take peyote in some of their prayer rituals?

How about some animists sacrificing a goat ... or a dog, something requiring bloodletting?

Sky clad pagans ... shamanistic communication with the dead ... public exorcisms ... Mormons baptizing the dead ... maybe a retro-catholic kiosk selling indulgences ....

Reply to the post by gitouttahere:

Thought my worldview is the complete opposite of yours, I have to say that I completely agree with your posting. If more Christians believed and practiced their religion as you, there would be much fewer arguments about the issue of prayer in school. From an absolute nonbeliever, thank you.

The way to pray at public schools is not to.

Give children 5, 10, or 15 minutes of free time to do as each of them individually want to with it. If they want to pray, they will. If they want to play a quick game of cards, they can. If they want to take a quick nap, let them.

The minute you decide to have a time of prayer, or even quiet contemplation for those who want it, you have violated the Constitutional barrier between church and state by imposing your own beleif structure on the student body.

Do the Polish kids mind all the attention?

Unfortunately they choose the flag pole, which is a political symbol. They are entirely within their rights to pray at the pole, but it shows contempt for the first amendment of the American constitution.

I am a Christian. Prayer -- first and foremost -- is communion between me and God. Prayer comes from my heart. Not from my mind, not from my mouth. My eyes do not have to be closed to pray. The only requirement is that my heart is open to speak to God while being silent to hear Him speak to me. No one has to regulate this. No one other than me and God needs to know I am even praying. I don't need permission from the government -- city, county, state or federal -- to pray to my God in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Prayer is private, but it does not have to be done in private, nor does it have to be regulated around a pole. God does not put these kinds of restrictions on me because He knows they are not necessary in order for Him and I to have a relationship.

PUBLIC PRAYER, PUBLIC SCHOOLS -- should be mutually exclusive. Do we really think that Muslims, Hindi, Jews would be respected gathering around a flagpole to pray? PR for one religion is not what our country stands for, and, we should not allow it.

You are the first religous leader to say regarding having prayer in school "government keep out of it." You are correct. Our founding fathers wanted to keep the government out of people's religious practices. That is why I don't understand the current push to teachers having prayers with students and children being taught morality based on certain religions. This push includes putting the ten commandments in courthouses. Don't our current religious leaders realize the number of religions in the U.S. You open the doors to one and then you have to include them all. Student run religious activities that include everyone is allowable and appropriate.

"I also seriously doubt that any of you saying all religions can participate really mean that..."

From the 'See You at the Pole' official website:

'It’s about you coming together and laying aside all of the labels and groups for one day, to simply engage with God in prayer and connect with fellow Christians in unity around the flag pole.'

Note the operative word is 'Christians'...

There has never been any prohibition or even discouragement of prayer in schools. By its nature, prayer does not need to be spoken aloud or done in groups. When done as an unobtrusive individual activity, it's not an issue. But if prayer is done aloud as a scheduled group activity, then it becomes a religious ceremony at the school, and that is what is wrong.

In this context, Christians never mention Matthew 6:5-6
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret."

The problem with these flagpole meetings is their clear intent to subvert the spirit, if not the letter, of the rulings of our courts. These are not spontaneous creations of the students. I have no doubt that everywhere they have arisen, it has been at the urging of parents behind the scenes. They are thumbing their noses at the rule of law, and at the rest of us who do not want our schools hijacked for the purpose of religious indoctrination.

Kathy5 said, "One can NOT be a Christian and still love their country."
I think Kathy5 placed the emphasis in this sentence to mean, "You don't have to be a Christian to love your country." (I don't think she meant "You can't love your country if you're a Christian.")

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correct - otherwise I would have said "one cannot" as in "I am not a Christian".

Kathy5 - One can NOT be a Christian and still love their country. This event should be eliminated from school grounds.
This is an assumption that you are jumping to, illogically so, for YOU may see it politically, but I do not think that these kids really care WHERE they pray. They simply want to exercise, as you and your kind want to forbid, their constitutional rights to assemble and free speech - or prayer at school but not in the classroom. The Supreme Court sees no problem with it, so why should you? Are you above the law of the land and the interpretation of it? Guess so.

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Well, we have a "religious right" in this country that IS political. And it is no accident that these prayer rallies happen around the flag pole - the "religious right" supports this activity and it is they that have equated religion with the American flag. Therefore, those who choose not to participate in the pole event will also be considered by some as not loving their country - because of the politics of the right in this country.

Me and "my kind" don't want to forbid prayer - there is a place for group prayer and it's called "church". Silent prayer can happen any time one wishes to speak privately with their God.

I also seriously doubt that any of you saying all religions can participate really mean that - suppose those of Muslim faith brought their prayer rugs and bowed to the east - be okay with you folks? I'm doubting it.

It's simple really.... allow kids to have a quiet moment to reflect on things - whatever they wish to think about... whether it's family or friends or good times they have had or religion, etc. AND THAT'S IT. Calling it "prayer time" is proselytizing in a subtle way and is NOT what this country is based on. The kids can use this moment each day to reflect on what's important to them. NEVER, EVER should they be instructed that it's time for a religious moment. This approach is fair to all - thinkers and non-thinkers alike.

Praying around the flag pole has a long history. My mother used to tell a story about the announcement of the armistice on 11/11/1918, when she was 12. My grandfather was the pastor of a Lutheran church in Hamtramck, MI, and the church had a parochial school that my mother attended. The neighborhood was made up of first generation German, Russian, and Hungarian immigrants, and the children spoke their first language at home. At the Lutheran school, all subjects in the morning were taught in German and those in the afternoon were taught in English, so the Russian and Hungarian children learned both languages. When the armistice was announced, the teachers and children gathered around the flag pole in front of the school and sang the hymn "Now thank we all our God"--in German.

Kathy5 said, "One can NOT be a Christian and still love their country."

I think Kathy5 placed the emphasis in this sentence to mean, "You don't have to be a Christian to love your country." (I don't think she meant "You can't love your country if you're a Christian.")

Any attempt by the state to impose a religious observance on a student is abhorrent and violates the first amendment.

Any attempt by the state to prevent a student from performing a religious observance is abhorrent and violates the first amendment.

The tension between these two parameters makes for often bitter debate (and worse, when such issues end up involving the courts) but is infinitely preferable to the alternative (leaving it to the state to dictate how citizens may or must worship).

Some citizens are offended by a public display of prayer by other citizens? Tough.

Some citizens are offended by making sure a public display of prayer does not impede the activity of those who do not wish to participate? Tough.

The free exercise clause of the first amendment must be upheld as vigorously as the separation clause, or the role of the Constitution falls into disarray.

I would be dismayed if my daughter chose to engage in a public prayer upholding conservative Christianity (since I abhor the Judaeo-Christian religious tradition). I would equally be dismayed if anyone (myself included) tried to prevent her from doing so by the exericse of the power of the state, and indeed, would be inclined to deal rather sharply with any private citizen who attempted to draggon her into such a display or to debar her from it in the kind of strutting, pissy internet tone many of the posts today choose to employ.

Really??? jdsher00 -
"Even the most radical right-wing Christians don't talk like that about people whose beliefs they disagree with."

Extremist fandamentalists, I hesitate to call them Christians, prosyletize that atheists will go to hell. That their version of a judging and damning Jesus is the only way to salvation. They call for the destruction of Islam, holy war etc.

While I agree that non-believers who lash out at folks who simply want a quite moment to pray together with those of their faith is a problem.

I find it somewhat ridiculous that those of faith cannot understand that many outside the faith have misgivings about public displays of religion, given the long history of religious belief to get a little out of hand, doctrinaire, judgmental, exclusive and discriminatory.

There is, I believe, a legitimate concern that when a school goes from a quiet group of students praying together, to a majority of kids gathering and praying and calling out those who do not participate, there is a strong possibility that these prayer groups can lead to discrimination, peer pressure, cliques of holier than though students and a host of problems.

I agree with the column in general, that there is and should be a proper way for kids to pray if they wish, but the safeguards that the column suggests are vital for the protection of the rights of those who choose not to participate.

"Be not like the Pharisees who pray in public....go to your closet and pray..."
Christians just aren't happy unless they're causing a fight of some kind. If these idiotic children want to pray don't do it on my tax dollar. If they do want to pray, then I require that each school district provide space for Buddhists to meditate: Meditate at the Water Cooler. I want Jews to Read Torah at the Loboratory. I want Hundus to Puja at the Trophy Case.
Christians come from a poverty attitude and they're just not happy until they think they're "stickin' it to the world" by praying somewhere where everyone can see them. Get over yourselves. No one cares about your stupid religion.

I have come to realize that when people say "my faith a private matter" what they are really saying is "my faith is non existant".

People who have a problem with prayer aroumd the pole - or prayer in general ( whether its private or public expressions ) have a problem with God.

If you dont believe in God, or hate God, at least be tollerant of those who do.

squier13 writes:

You hit the nail on the head. If it isn't an activity in pursuit of academic achievement there is little reason students should be engaged in it at school.
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If that was the sole purpose of a school, I would agree with you.

"FYIColumbiaMD - Based on your statement any group that has like feelings and gathers together is by nature, excluding and highlighting those who do not attend."

Sigh - of course that is not the case. Consider the guidance from the 'See You at the Pole' web page:

'Do you desire to see a mighty move of God on your campus? Are you pursuing God passionately? Are you serious about radical obedience? Are you determined to get rid of anything and everything that dishonors God and ready to challenge your friends to do the same? '

What should a Jewish student think about Christians who are 'determined to get rid of anything and everything that dishonors God'? How about gay students? Atheist students? Muslim students? Hindu students?

The symbolic merger of state (flagpole) and religion is frankly terrifying to any student of history.

"No coversion at the point of a sword/gun is ever done by a Christian."

This is probably one of the most ridiculous, factually inaccurate statements ever posted in this forum as anyone who has studied even the barest minimum of the history of Christianity should be able to understand.

"Otherwise, based on others comments on this board, we should not have clubs for the high achievers based on their academic performance, nor should we even have athletic teams, another voluntary activity, since those who do not have an interest, or are not allowed to play could feel excluded."
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You hit the nail on the head. If it isn't an activity in pursuit of academic achievement there is little reason students should be engaged in it at school.

One of Mussolini's first action was bannign the display of a crucifix in Italian schools.

Many of the posters here would have signed right up!

If students spent more time studying, they wouldn't have to pray so much, now would they?

chan2 writes:

IMWEAVER: Oh, you're sad? Now maybe you're beginning to understand what it feels like to have someone else's religion shoved down your throat.
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I will address this one specifically. First - I know exactly what it's like to be in the religious minority (or in my case, the nonreligious minority), but it seems clear that you and others did not actually read the article with comprehension. Comments like yours and others are absolutely true - someone in authority should NEVER press their personal religious beliefs on others, especially minors. But since the article agrees with you, why all the bizarre vitriol aimed at the column?

readerny writes:

I was taught by example that faith is a private matter, and that it is "showy" and self-aggrandizing to do what is promoted in the article. I still hold that view, and think that many of these so-called prayer activities are mostly social, and generally participated in by students to show they're "in" with a certain group. It seems more like showmanship than prayer.
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This is my one big issue with the event - is it a humble ecumenical moment of fellowship, or does it become a typical teen clique-building activity?

Prayer has both private and public components, but the public ones can easily become part of the "us" vs. "them" mentality we all fall into. Perhaps parents should use this event as a good teaching opportunity to talk about the difference between public religious boasting, public declarations of faith, and public communal activities.

I guess based on some responses here there should not be any political clubs at schools either nor anything that isn't strictly a part of or directly related to the approved curriculum. Of course then there is the question of the 'approved' curriculum, who gets the right of 'approval.' Who has final and ultimate approval of school curriculum? Is it the Community, State, Federal Government, or the US Supreme Court?

Amazing that a group of people gathering together at school (once or twice a year) on a voluntary basis, can be interpreted as such a threat to people. If any religious group wanted to do the same thing, good for them. As long as the activity does not unduly disrupt the school day so what.

Otherwise, based on others comments on this board, we should not have clubs for the high achievers based on their academic performance, nor should we even have athletic teams, another voluntary activity, since those who do not have an interest, or are not allowed to play could feel excluded.

The saddest comments are those from people who either didn't read the article, or refused to process it - especially those complaining about teachers humiliating students,

IMWEAVER: Oh, you're sad? Now maybe you're beginning to understand what it feels like to have someone else's religion shoved down your throat.

Students should be told that prayer may be of no value and even harmful. See the link below for the evidence supporting my statement:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I was taught by example that faith is a private matter, and that it is "showy" and self-aggrandizing to do what is promoted in the article. I still hold that view, and think that many of these so-called prayer activities are mostly social, and generally participated in by students to show they're "in" with a certain group. It seems more like showmanship than prayer.

As a rationalist,( I find atheist to be a negative term because it means I know for a fact what is true, which is exactly what people of faith think as well) I have no issues with prayer being performed by any group. My question is, would this meet at the pole group really allow Jews, Muslims, Mormons to join and say a prayer? They would on the surface, yet underneath, there is always that little voice that says, "You have to pray to my God". I am a recovering Catholic after all. Plus, has anything with the words "Texas" and "Baptist" in it lead to any good?

If you would not plan to track me down to flip me off, give me a piece of your mind, etc, I'd offer to pray for you.

GAMILLER1: Don't even think about it. I'd get an attorney to track you down and get him to sue your a** off for incitement to the deity to commit forgiveness.

I am an employee at a public school in Virginia. My high school violates many of the pitfalls described in the article. First, the event is not simply student sponsored. Staff have sent out emails to the entire faculty (using the schools email server and distribution lists) inviting everyone to join in prayer at the flagpole. Second, teachers, administrators, and staff are invited (encouraged?) to participate. My feeling is that we are in direct violation of the establishment clause. What do you think?

It's apparent that certain members of our society only wish to recognize the Freedoms of Speech and Religion possessed by their fellow citizens only if they never speak and cannot even be seen praying.

Fascists, really.

OldProgessivefromWisconsin writes:

Just as an after thought; would the author fully support the right of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Native Americans, Wiccans, Atheists, Druids, etc. to also stage a public event at the same flag poles without ostricism or threat by Christians? She ommitted the Constitutional requirement that all religions be treated equally on public ground. Either all or none--I opt for the latter.
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Of course! Why shouldn't another group (faith-based or not) be allowed to do so? I see nothing in the OP's article that suggests otherwise - in fact, the article makes it quite explicit that there shouldn't even be a hint of favoritism shown by school administration or even parents.

On the other hand, the latter half of your comment is incorrect. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is in no way equivalent to "public displays of religion when on common ground is prohibited". In fact, assuming that you are substituting "government" for "congress" above (which most of us unconsciously do), you are wrong. The government has no right to arbitrarily prohibit citizens from meeting in this fashion.

The saddest comments are those from people who either didn't read the article, or refused to process it - especially those complaining about teachers humiliating students, right-wing Christians draping themselves in the flag, etc.

Speaking of not being very nice, many of the atheists on this thread really need to calm down. What gives you the right to mock and insult other people and their beliefs outright? Even the most radical right-wing Christians don't talk like that about people whose beliefs they disagree with. Challenging religion is a good thing to do, but these name-calling comments are the very most religiously intolerant behavior I've seen on this or any OnFaith thread. Atheism as practiced by these commenters is not a cure but a regression into the worst of religious intolerance. I don't like "See You at the Pole," but it's nowhere near as insulting as these people calling every religious person gullible, a disgrace, a religion of hatred, a book of fairy tales, etc. Some of the atheist commenters here, by resorting to name-calling and insults, are only suggesting they don't have anything intelligent to say. They're also by far the most prejudiced people in the room. Grow up, folks.

Isn't is surprising that an article which encourages students to freely practice their religion in a non-confrontational manner elicts Christian-bashing posts.

Why so much hatred directed at those who dare think differently from you?

"You'd better check your history and your facts. Most Founding Fathers were Deists..."

Wrong, almost all were members of Christian congregations. Check your own facts.

Indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination.

The only reason why any religion insists on making any kind of display of faith in schools is for the purpose of indoctrination. Of course these students can pray elsewhere (at home, in church, etc.), but that does not and never will satisfy religious mandates to indoctrinate others.

And why schools in particular? Because children are vulnerable and impressionable. Indoctrinating adults requires more work. As the tobacco industry knows, it's much easier to addict them while they are young.

If a particular religion lets me come to it, that's fine. But when religion comes after my children in public institutions, it's evil. It's indoctrination of the young, vulnerable and impressionable.

So it's a constant battle. Religion trying, any way it can, to get into our kids' heads. Prayer in school, "intelligent design," god in the Pledge of Allegiance... any way to get that hook in and drive it deep. Evil, plain as day.

Once again the Religion of Hatred, Intolerance, Indifference and ineptness, grasping at at lies distortions and twisting truths and facts. Further proof that their book of Fairy Tales is irrelevant to most as they fell like they are persecuted because they are not allowed to advance their Lies. In their book of Fairy Tales it clearly states pray in a closet these folks are a disgrace to the Deity of the week they worship. If you think I am lying about distortion of truth check out the Kirk Cameron story of circulating LIES, its by these Fools own admission that I find disgust for them.

FYIColumbiaMD - Based on your statement any group that has like feelings and gathers together is by nature, excluding and highlighting those who do not attend. That is a very twisted view. Then anyone who does not attend any voluntary meeting could claim that they are being made to feel 'different.' That dog won't hunt bud.

As to someone elses view that Christians are trying to take over the world - Yeah we are with one big difference. Becoming a Christian is a strictly voluntary action, no pressure no threating nothing should be done to 'convert' anyone other than to express and share our reasons for our beliefs. You and everyone else has the freedom to chose to believe or not believe. No coversion at the point of a sword/gun is ever done by a Christian. Its a free will choice. Meet you at the pole is a way for young Christians to reinforce the idea that they are not alone, there are other Christians at their school.

This is the most ridiculous claim I have seen in some time.

Posted by: Publ1us | September 22, 2009 9:02 AM

----

You, sir, need to merely walk around Arlington Cemetery and look at the headstones that are topped with a Star of David.

These soldiers indeed loved their country.

many (by no means all) Founding Fathers were Christians...
You'd better check your history and your facts. Most Founding Fathers were Deists, and many were atheist/agnostic but weren't allowed to proclaim their real beliefs.

chan2

You really need help. Giving the finger to someone in death, wow, you need to take your medication!!! Maybe you should investigate a religion that embraces a novel concept - forgiveness. Really, it will reduce your stress level. After all, how many nights did you lay awake planning out the "vengeful bird" to be displayed to your one-time teacher, to go back to where he lived, find him dead and IN DEATH, still have no empathy, sympathy, or sense of loss, only the desire to tell him F*&% You! Get a life, he's dead and you are still alive with a life to celebrate. But by the looks of it, you choose not to celebrate, but to berate.

If you would not plan to track me down to flip me off, give me a piece of your mind, etc, I'd offer to pray for you.

Sorry, by "the previous poster" I meant the one who quoted Matthew 6:5.

Once again the Religion of Hatred, Intolerance, Indifference and ineptness, grasping at at lies distortions and twisting truths and facts. Further proof that their book of Fairy Tales is irrelevant to most as they fell like they are persecuted because they are not allowed to advance their Lies. In their book of Fairy Tales it clearly states pray in a closet these folks are a disgrace to the Deity of the week they worship. If you think I am lying about distortion of truth check out the Kirk Cameron story of circulating LIES, its by these Fools own admission that I find disgust for them.

I remember "See You at the Pole." As a Jewish student, this was one of the most uncomfortable experiences I had at school in Northern Virginia. It was designed to separate me from my friends. Even the title suggests it's clearly designed to highlight who's not there, to make being at the pole (i.e. being Christian) the "popular" thing to do. It's insidious and wrong.

I now do interfaith work and have read and studied the New Testament. I agree with the previous poster that Christians ought to study their own gospel. If they want to meet other Christians, what's wrong with meeting them in church? "See You at the Pole" is legal but it is not a very nice gesture to those who are in a religious minority. It's an uncomfortable memory that has stayed with me for 15 years. I think Christians should be Christian. I think Christianity is a great religion and Christians should be proud of their religious tradition and heritage. Being in the majority should not stop them from talking about their religion, which is something that's important to them. They could be a little nicer about it, though.

MORONIC article. Prayer has NO PLACE in public schools. PERIOD. If anyone wants to pray, let them shut up and do it privately. Prayer is not a group activity, not a school activity, not a school sports team activity, etc. As someone who was subjected to public school prayer in the 50s and 60s, I can personally attest to its tyranny. The assumption back then was that that we were a christian nation. We're not. What's the excuse now for prayer in public schools?

Kathy5 says, "One can NOT be a Christian and still love their country."

This is the most ridiculous claim I have seen in some time. How, then, would you explain that many (by no means all) Founding Fathers were Christians as were many of our following leaders? Are you prepared to say that not one of the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who gave their lives for our country was a Christian who loved America?

Quite frankly, with a claim as ridiculous as yours, I need only find one counterexample and you will then be proved incorrect.

Christianity as a religion promotes good citizenship. Christ said to pay your taxes (Luke 20), Paul said to obey your earthly rulers (Romans 13), and Paul also said to pray for your authorities and respect them (2 Timothy 2).

Your claim demonstrates the height of ignorance and intolerance. If I seem sensitive, it is because millions upon millions of Christians have been tortured and killed because of the sentiment that one cannot be both a Christian and a good member of their society.

Kathy5 - One can NOT be a Christian and still love their country. This event should be eliminated from school grounds.

This is an assumption that you are jumping to, illogically so, for YOU may see it politically, but I do not think that these kids really care WHERE they pray. They simply want to exercise, as you and your kind want to forbid, their constitutional rights to assemble and free speech - or prayer at school but not in the classroom. The Supreme Court sees no problem with it, so why should you? Are you above the law of the land and the interpretation of it? Guess so.

Do not take the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Name in vain else you be slapped by his noodly appendage! Selah!

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

I'd remove my child from school that day, and make him/her recite the Constitution. Then, a quick lesson about the dangers of the Moral Policemen trying to hijack the state and federal governments.

Then, a trip to Dairy Queen for a sundae. I could definitely see "See You at the Pole" as becoming a tradition for my family too! Thanks!

Christians such as the author of this piece are promoting a very devious kind of Christianity these days. Reminds one of Pat Robertson ... start at the bottom, infest at the local level, take over other parts of the generic social contract we have with one another ...

I have a more Eric Hoffer perspective on Christianity.

"... it is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible ...
"It is the true believer's ability to 'shut his eyes and stop his ears' to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises, and the unpleasant realities of the world around him"
......

How are we going to solve the problems of the world when most of our species never made it past Santa Claus?

By the very act of equating the American flag with Christianty those who do not participate are also seen as not loving their country - being unAmerican if you will. Thus, divides are created and I believe that is the purpose of such an event.

One can NOT be a Christian and still love their country. This event should be eliminated from school grounds.

First, public school teachers and administrators should not participate. This means that the school officials should not give those wishing to protest praying at the pole any special advantage or treat them more favorably than any student speakers. By the same token, they should not discourage or put unreasonable impediments in the way of this constitutional practice. In short, school officials should remain neutral and allow students to run the program.

Second, parents should not join in the protest. These are to be student-initiated, student-run protests. Attempts on the part of parents to participate directly can be problematic, and many schools ask parents to stay away. However, this doesn't mean parents can't be involved. For example, parents of school-aged children may protest at a church the hour following the meeting on campus and protest together for their children, other students and the school.

Third, students should strive to model their protest through their behavior. Administrators and other students will be watching. Participating students must respect the rights of others to disagree with them and not participate. Others should not be put down for failing to join the group or aggressively proselytized or rudely hectored.

Fourth, student leaders should inform the school administration about their plans for the prptest and accept reasonable time, place and manner limitations on their meeting. School officials are not allowed to prohibit the meeting, but they can impose reasonable guidelines. For example, if the flagpole is near a bus lane and 200 students want to crowd around the pole to protest, the school would be justified in moving the protest meeting from the flagpole to a safer area of campus.

Just as an after thought; would the author fully support the right of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Native Americans, Wiccans, Atheists, Druids, etc. to also stage a public event at the same flag poles without ostricism or threat by Christians? She ommitted the Constitutional requirement that all religions be treated equally on public ground. Either all or none--I opt for the latter.

"I'd actually wager that many of those having commented thus far have only a meager (and likely caricatured) comprehension of Christianity. Toss out the "flying spaghetti monster" and forget about the whole thing, right?"

Sorry, some of us have more of a Bart Ehrman and Karen Armstrong understanding of Christian mythology - even with the Pastafarian quips we can still have a fairly detailed discussion of faith.

With respect to the vitriol in the discussion, I would submit that it is probably akin to the vitriol and loathing experienced by many of our nation's founders. They too loathed the state religion and the empty public expressions of faith that were required of them.

The 'See You at the Pole' movement is designed to highlight those who are *not* at the pole - those individuals are clearly not 'good'. That such a movement is directed specifically at socially vulnerable children provides yet more evidence of the cult-like tactics some Christians feel are necessary to maintain its base.

It is unfortunate that the fundamentalists so easily confuse the flag with some religious symbol. Mixing patriotism with faith is a very dangerous and abusive combination. I was a pastor in a small town where the fundamentalists "wrapped themselves in the flag" and denegrated those who would not participate on "separation of church and state grounds". My God is the God of all people regardless of flag. This was especially difficult when these same fundamentalists equate being a Republican with being a Chrisian and being a Democrat with being atheist and un-American. The Flag should not be usurped for religious purposes and the Church should not be used for political purposes. Both are corrupted by the practice.

I will never, for as long as I live, forget the humiliation I felt when my born-again Christian sixth grade teacher invited me to lead our class in the Lord's Prayer. (He knew fully well that my family was not Christian.) After I turned adult I tracked him down and was preparing to make a trip to see him to give him a piece of my mind when the news arrived he had died of a heart attack. If I believed there was an internet connection in Heaven I would Google him and send him a JPEG image of my extended middle finger. For what it's worth he was a good teacher, but I'll never get over the shame of his coercing me to recite a prayer at the risk of receiving a hazing from my peers.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Madeline Murray O'Hair, for taking the issue of "freedom from religion" all the way to the US Supreme Court -- and winning!

Christians and particularly the American Southern version of Christianity are the supreme sado-masochists. It is absolutely essential for their self perceived well being that they are being persecuted by someone or are persecuting someone.

This public prayer stuff is all about being seen and belonging to something. The more reaction from us heathens and gentiles the more they like it. Its almost as good as sex for them--well in the case of many of their coiffed hair ministers--not really as good as sex.

Nevertheless, I sincerely wish they would move to the middle east and enjoy the benefits of a religious state. Why they could even openly treat their women as real property per the Tenth Commandment.

In the mean time they will have to put up with our version of democracy and will have to wait it out for the "Kingdom of Heaven". They want a "King", who decides everything for them and makes everything alright oh, and will let them stand at his right hand while he tortures the rest of us at the final reckoning. Jesus wouldn't recognize these people especially when the weigh in on issues like health insurance reform and troop levels in Afghanistan from a "Biblical Perspective".

"Prayer at the pole" is a big step for a teenage Christian. Publicly identifying your position can still led to ridicule and ostracism from some, as is evidenced by the comments here. Just this last weekend at a men's retreat, one of the common issues discussed was how hard it was for us, even when middle-aged or older, to step forward like this.

Nonetheless, this provides a nice opportunity for young Christians to recognize each other. We are meant to work as a faith community; building each other up, sharing joys and sorrows, and the wider each of us makes our community, the stronger and more resilient we can become.

You are mistaking what is despised here.
Christianity is just another variant of the mind-numbing self-delusion known as theistic faith, practiced generally from within a religion.

Just another one, got it? So it's your religion, you don't believe in any of the others do you? Why should we mark out a special location for Christianity in this ... well, we don't, other than it's the insanity most present around us.

Now repeat after me: It's not what christians believe, say they believe, or even do - it's how they got that way. What other ridiculous notion will enter into the head of one so credulous and indeed gullible as to believe this nonsense? Who will you follow, Jim Jones, Pat Robertson, Osama Bin Laden?

People who aren't faithist will never fall prey to that kind of evil. People who are faithist probably will not, but they are capable of it.

That's worth despising.

I'm shocked by the vitriol of practically every comment here. Such hate and spite, I can't help but suspect a knee-jerk defensive reaction. After all, this is your secular e-newspaper, right? And mustn't you despise those who are religious? I mean, you couldn't dare allow the notion to go unchallenged that there might actually be something to what they're doing, right? I'd actually wager that many of those having commented thus far have only a meager (and likely caricatured) comprehension of Christianity. Toss out the "flying spaghetti monster" and forget about the whole thing, right?

OH JEZUS PLEEZEE , SCHOOLS ARE FOR LEARNING AND CHURCHES ARE FOR PRAYER!

I agree. Many people do feel more secure praying with others, it helps them stop that nagging voice in their head that keeps saying: what a crock.

Like I always say:

"Dear Lord,

Protect and deliver me from your followers.

Amen."

Anyone can pray, any time. Shut your eyes and bow your head. Communal prayer can be done at your dinner table and in your church. This is not a spontaneous idea thought up by a bunch of students. I find the public show of prayer troublesome. I think there were some admonishments against the same in the Bible that I read. And doing it around the flagpole and then saying be careful of that church / state thing? How uncareful can you be out the gate?

The whole point of this nonsense is so that other people see your self-published piety. The Giant-Invisible-Being-That- Lives-In-The-Sky isn't listening.

"Meet you at the pole".... Right, the North Pole where Santa lives.

I would disagree that this is a "ridiculous article". There are many people who may actually feel more secure in praying with others, and I see no issue with that circumstance.

What is important is how carefully school officials must act in order to accommodate the circumstance. And rightly so.

Nonetheless, while I admit I am not a big fan of public prayer of any sort, I would be interested to see what levels of religious tolerance we'd see should a group of Muslim kids agree "to meet at the pole."

I'd be willing to bet that many of the public school prayer advocates might change their tune under those circumstances.

Finally, this article should put to rest a favorite mantra so often voiced in the right-wing media that "there is no prayer in public schools"---and "the Supreme Court took that away".

Uh-no. They didn't. You sure can pray in public school. Unless you work there. Which is as it should be.

What a ridiculous article. If anyone wants to pray shut your eyes and do it. No need to make a big thing about it.

Gosh, you think that God is so impatient that he can't wait for a couple of hours for a prayer or that He doesn't know what you are already thinking???