Jewish Reaction to Pope Disproportionate

I am not Jewish or Catholic, but if I were the Pope, I'd tell Bishop Williamson to go to...

There is a reason why the Church has been shrinking in size, importance and regard. It has failed to adapt to changes but worse has surrendered the moral high ground in its behavior in words and deeds. The embarrassing statements and the failure of the vatican to quickly repudiate those is a major failure, and have Jews overreacted to this, perhaps given the lax discipline that the Vatican has had on the behavior of the clergy in recent years.

Denying what happened in WW2 is either the sign of mental illness or bigotry, absent the knowledge of the man its hard to say.

Failure to immediately step to the plate and repudiate his statements a failure of moral leadership that the church needs to portray if it wants to continue to be seen as relevant in the world.

Arguing about abortion, birth control and other issues is difficult when the clergy is embroiled in sex scandals and hateful comments.

The Pope should be out front on this it is not Jews who are disgusted by these types of comments by leadership within the Church.

CCNL

You wrote, "Jesus was Jewish, yes, but he was not the son of any god."

You are right Jesus "was not the son of any god", He was the Son of God, the One and Only God Who Is a Trinity, and the Son of Man and He became both, simutaneously, when Mary said YES.

Before that He was God, the Second Person of the Trinity to put it into some kind of human language.

We are all sons and daughters of God and since Jesus became one of us, we are also brothers and sisters of God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

As a Catholic with Jewish ancestry, and as an aspiring religious historian, I've been following this issue compulsively. Rabbi Kula, your thoughts are a breath of fresh air amidst all the scandal-mongering coverage!
Context is always what is needed in situations like this. Thank you for pointing out Pope Benedict's history of commitment to dialogue with the Jewish people.
It's been easy for me to get discouraged when the Church I love is viewed by many as a farce. Thank you for working to understand the "other" and applying some cool-headed reason to the situation.

Small correction from the first sentence:

Society of St. Pius X

NOT

St. Pious X Society

--
Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides by Thomas Dalton, PhD

Publisher's Note: This is a non-Revisionist title for Theses & Dissertations Press. It will be the first book on the Holocaust, in publishing history, that will not take a Traditionalist or a Revisionist point of view. When you purchase this book, one-third of the proceeds will go to Germar Rudolf and his family.

http://www.amazon.com/Debating-Holocaust-Look-Both-Sides/dp/1591480051/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233219533&sr=1-1

Founded in 2000 the publishing company Theses & Dissertations Press is at the center of a worldwide network of scholars and activists who are working -- often at great personal sacrifice -- to separate historical fact from propaganda fiction. The founder of Theses & Dissertations Press is Germar Rudolf. Who is currently serving prison time for his published works and will be released on July 4, 2009.

As the new director of Germar Rudolf's American publishing division, I wish to express my outrage that the Holocaust, unlike any other historical event, is not subject to critical revisionist investigation. Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust. It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse and not in our legislatures bodies and courthouses.

Peace.

Michael Santomauro
Editorial Director
Call: 917-974-6367
ReporterNotebook@Gmail.com

Perhaps, like the Pope, you are merely so swaddled by your surroundings, you just do not fully comprehend what a muck-up this action was.

Please take the 10 minutes or so to read this article from Spiegel, http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,605542,00.html
That explains just how and WHY this is such a bad action on the part of the Pope, and WHY is it such a slap in the face to the Jewish religion, and perhaps you will realize that you are off the mark, here, Rabbi.

Your article is MOST curious. You, being a "man of the cloth" of the Jewish religion (8th generation rabbi, no less), and having personally lost family members to the Holocaust, should, of ALL people, be expected to be at least a LITTLE empathetic towards the similar feelings of others.

Yet, you dismiss a VERY popular, and VERY vocal denier of a crime against humanity, and a crime against "God," in whatever religious form you conceive him to be. You call Wilkerson "cranky," twice, "crabby," "old," and "irrelevant."

You certainly are not very respectful of your own religion, MUCH LESS that of any other, evidently, to so freely and cavalierly dismiss a VERY valid concern by NON-JEWS. Just as the Jews vow to "Never Forget," there are a GREAT many of us Gentiles, who ALSO swore to NEVER forget. That means we get upset when deniers are easily forgiven. Even though God teaches us forgiveness, and the Catholic Religion takes it to a new level with this action.

Your rude, dismissive, and excuse me, but "holier than thou" attitude towards the reaction of people NOT of your faith is very petty, and does you, your religion, and this entire situation NO good.

Instead of preaching down at others YOU "think" are overreacting, since you DON'T understand the Roman Catholic community as much as you think you do, why don't you stick to promoting tolerance in a less INSULTING, DEROGATORY, and snotty little attitude that ceretainly does not fit your position, nor your heritage.

Sir,

Thank you Rabbi Kula. What a breath of fresh air. My feelings exactly.

It's so refreshing to hear a rational response to this. Thank you!

I mean, get real. How many times in the same article does Mr. Kula have to assert - with no authority whatsoever - that the bishop in question is a cranky (old) man? "Unheard of?" So is this the criteria for judging the bishop's views? The bishop is certainly more "heard of" than Rabbi Irwin Kula. So Mr. Kula, I guess you've demoted your own logic a notch because most people in the world never heard of you either, nor will they be hearing of you in the foreseeable future. The "cranky" comment was obviously a slam on the bishop's age. Hence, according to Kula, old people don't know what they're talking about (unless of course he/she utters the things Kula likes to hear). From my readings, the bishop did not deny any holocaust; he merely asserted that the figures were wrong - exaggerated. What can be more "cranky" about a bunch of zealots consumed and obsessed with a particular number as if someone who kills a mere 200,000 (Sukharto) or even 1400 people (Gaza) are not as blood-thirsty as the one who slaughters one (Bush), ten (Leopold in Congo) or 40 (Stalin) million? ALL mass-murderers have the same cold-blooded heart - Stalin, Hitler, Bush, Livni, Ohlmert, Amin, Sukharto, Napoleon, Condoleezza, Churchhill, Eisenhower, Samoza, Pinochet, Alexander, Leopold .... There is not a shred of moral difference between any of these men/women. Reduce the figures for any of the above by 90% and we still have the same trolls bathing in rivers of blood. I wouldn't want ANY of them near my kids. In each case, the mass murder was justified by the most convoluted reasoning that stands civility on its head. Nothing is as cranky as holding onto some pathological number. Nothing is as cranky as invoking "denial" status to anyone who dare utter a number less than 6 million. The insanity is beyond reason. Thus, in this psycho-cranky world, a person who says 5,999,999 or less is labeled as a "denier" (that a great evil has taken place). Indeed, it seems that Jews are much more concerned with the magic number "6" than the fact that a great evil has taken place.

Germany has swung from one extreme to another, equally bad. What happened to free speech? The same people who are howling now were howling about why we needed free speech to malign the Muslims just a few months ago. Let's use the same standards...free speech was originally intended to permit one to criticise one's government freely. In recent years people worldwide have demanded the freedom to abuse their neighbors for the most personal reasons such as religion, under the guise of "free speech". So why is this different from the nasty things people were saying about Islam? Remember what Eli Wissel said, "first they came for the Jews and I was not a Jew, then they came for the Catholics and I was not a Catholic......" I believe we need to have a full and open investigation of the Holocaust, particularly who was responsible. I believe we will find many on the Nurenberg jury, with as much blood on their hands!!!

It is time to have an open and thorough investigation of the Holocaust and all other Crimes of World War II instead of putting people in Prison who do not agree with the officially mandated truths about World War II.

CCNL:

Why not simply recommend everyone simply "Google" anti-semitism. We all realize there are "red-neck" Catholics/Christians like Mel Gibson who take the literal word of the bible. Are they any different than the orthodox Jews who believe in all the promised-land mumbo jumbo of the OT ???
____________________________

There are many different kinds of Orthodox Jews. None of them are literalists in the sense that some Catholics and Christians are, as I have explained to you again and again and again.

It is inconceivable to me that in this day and age, two thousand years into your religion, that C's still do not understand that Judaism was founded within interpretive traditions. The Tanakh itself is internally interpretive. It isn't read alone, but in conjunction with Mishnah and Talmud.

Some Orthodox Jews believe that Messiah is a human being. For the most literal, a descendant of the Davidic king. For others, a human being, without said creds. For others, a concept.

The return to the land from which they were exiled is, for many Orthodox Jews, a historical event that will occur when it occurs. When the world is repaired, healed Tikkun Olam, the Messiah will come. But Tikkun Olam, healing the world, making it just is our responsibility.

You are in some gaga land with respect to your understanding of what Jews think. We are not, as Onofrio so succinctly put it, founded on a huge faith/belief commitment. Other religions do not make us insecure. Not only is their room for dispute in Judaism, dispute is essential to it.

READ MAIMONIDES, THE GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED. IT

IS ONLINE. MAIMONIDES, TWELFTH CENTURY, BELIEVED

LESS IN THE LITERAL TRUTH OF THE TANAKH THAN

TWENTIETH CENTURY BIBLICAL SCHOLARS.

IS ANYTHING SINKING IN CCNL?

CCNL,

Do you know who the Tanaim were? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannaim)

After two thousand years, shouldn't you C people know? We were a little busy in the richest and most creative period of Judaism. We wished to keep Akiva alive. He, who really did live, who really was executed by the Romans.

Part II:

CCNL,

We go through the same things again and again. Why would anyone care about this man enough to want to kill him? It makes no sense. NOne. The Pharisees were ushering in the Rabbinic Age. Geniuses like Akiva were in mortal peril.

He, actually, was murdered by the Romans. That is a fact. Again, Jesus, if he existed, and I'm willing to take it "on faith" that he did, could not have interested many. They knew what was meant by Messiah. Human sacrifice was anathema to them by that point. The notion of Hashem as a murderer was unthinkable.

The Talmud is on line. Take what is attractive to you in the Christian Testament, what is ethical, but don't make it up. Our understanding of the Tanakh does not, did not, could not authorize typology, the hideous things that you say the stolen, half-literalized, half-typologized "OT" did.

We are willing to live and let live. Leave our text, our history outside of your narratives, CCNL, please.

Nothing of what you say, btw, justifies the ongoing racism against and persecution of Jews by Christians. NOTHING.

Speed123 AKA Mary Cunningham,

I answered your bigoted racist selves on Arroyo's thread. Instead of running around from thread to thread posting under different names and blaming the victims of racism, why don't you do something to end the bigotry. Start with yourself.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

Why not simply recommend everyone simply "Google" anti-semitism. We all realize there are "red-neck" Catholics/Christians like Mel Gibson who take the literal word of the bible. Are they any different than the orthodox Jews who believe in all the promised-land mumbo jumbo of the OT ???

And it is obvious to most Catholics that priests and popes must believe in the literal word of the NT. Without it, their lives have no meaning and their jobs would go extinct.

The root of the problem is the trial of Jesus. Historically it did not happen. Jesus got a bit carried away at the Jewish temple. The Roman soldiers reacted in their normal fashion in dealing with agitators, they summarily crucified him. No questions asked and definitely no trial.

The ex-priest but still Catholic Professor JD Crossan's conclusion about said fictional trial:

From his book, Who is Jesus????

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

And please read the comments about anti-semitism by the contemporary NT and historical Jesus exegetes in their many books about the historical Jesus. There is a great list posted at:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

What an anti-Catholic nutjob you are, Farnaz2!

Spread your hate somewhere else and GET A LIFE...

Click on the link to read more about Radical Traditional Catholic groups (CODE FOR ANTISEMTIC) in the US. The Southern Poverty Law Center is an excellent source of information on hate groups all over the country.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=1297

From the Southern Poverty Law Center: More antisemitic Priests

Intelligence Report
Winter 2006

The Dirty Dozen Page 5




Key members of the Slaves of the Immaculate GHeart of Mary include (from left) brothers Louis Marie, André Marie, Fancis (the Slave superior), Maximilian Maria and Anthony Mary. In 2005, the Slaves' Brother Anthony Mary, M.I.C.M, Tert., warned a conference that
SLAVES OF THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY
Richmond, N.H.
At the end of a dirt road atop a wooded mountain in southwestern New Hampshire, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary own a complex of three main buildings, the basement of one of which is used as a church. Members of the larger Slaves community live in the surrounding country, sending their children to a school run by the organization. The Slaves are followers of the anti-Semitic priest Leonard Feeney, a "genius" who started the organization after he was excommunicated in 1953. The group began operations in Boston, but later moved to Still River, Mass., where it became known for such unusual practices as allowing one nun to remain married after taking her vows and raising children communally. After the founder's death in 1978, the organization broke up into several factions, with the most radical setting up shop in Richmond (the old Still River site is now known as St. Benedict Abbey, which is in full communion with the Vatican). Today, the Slaves continue to endorse Feeney and to defend him from charges of anti-Semitism, despite his well-documented hatred of the Jews. (One unsigned 1958 article in Feeney's rabid publication, The Point, summed up the situation like this: "Essential to the understanding of our chaotic times is the knowledge that the Jewish race constitutes a united anti-Christian bloc within Christian society, and is working for the overthrow of that society by every means at its disposal.") Like Feeney, the Slaves today see the Vatican II reforms as the product of Jewish pressures and argue that the "Jewish nation is at enmity with Our Lord's Plan." They have denounced the Vatican's moves to reconcile with Jews as "capitulation to the tyrannical demands of the most insidious elements within Jewry (e.g., the Vatican audiences granted to the pro-abortion, pro-homosexual, anti-Christ Jewish Anti-Defamation League)." In fact, the Slaves say that Jews will be the first people to accept the Antichrist and will quickly join "in launching the most savage persecution of the Church in the history of the world." This kind of ugly rhetoric earned the Slaves a sharp rebuke in 2004 from Bishop John B. McCormack of Manchester, N.H., who called their teachings "blatantly anti-Semitic" and "offensive to all people of good will." That didn't stop the Slaves' Brother Anthony Mary, while lecturing at the 2005 St. Joseph Forum's conference, from describing the "Jewish nation" as "the perpetual enemy of Christ" and saying that the Virgin Mary had threatened the Jews with "blood and terror if it's required." The Slaves, who also inveigh against "feminists, sodomites, and those who advocate the sin of birth control," hold annual conferences that feature prominent radical traditionalist Catholics from around the country. Last August, speakers included John Sharpe and Father Nicholas Gruner.

ST. JOSEPH FORUM
South Bend, Ind.
A privately run organization dedicated to "addressing the root causes of the crisis in the Church," the St. Joseph Forum specializes in popularizing the writings of the anti-Semitic Irish priest, Father Denis Fahey, through its "Project Awaken" program. In several books, the late Fahey wrote that society and the church had been twisted by "the leadership of the Jews, who wield such enormous power in the modern world through the subjection of man to production and production to finance." The forum decries what it describes as the Jews' "Naturalistic Revolution" -- materialism and rationalism -- and urges battle against "the visible and invisible" forces working to destroy Christianity. The group raises funds to distribute Fahey's writings and has put on an annual conference in South Bend for 11 years. The conferences typically bring together some of the most extreme voices in the radical traditionalist world, including John Vennari, E. Michael Jones,, Father Nicholas Gruner, John Sharpe, and Brother Anthony Mary, who described Jews at the 2005 conference as "the perpetual enemy of Christ." Tapes of the forum conferences are sold by the Saint Augustine Institute of Catholic Studies, a publishing arm of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Meet Fr. Henryk Jankowski. Fr. Jankowski, antisemite, accused of pedophilia, is, to the best of my knowledge, no longer heading a congregation. He would like Mel Gibson to film his life's story. (I'm not kidding.)

Thursday, September 30, 2004
R&S Extra: Archbishop of Gdansk encourages Fr. Henryk Jankowski to step down

SME (Slovak newspaper, in Slovak) is reporting that Gdansk Archbishop has called publicly for Father Henryk Jankowski to resign voluntarily as rector of St. Bridget's in Gdansk. SME adds that Jankowski, a former associate of Lech Walesa, has been investigated for antisemitic comments and now is under indictment for sexual abuse of a congregant.

Jankowski is infamous for his antisemitism; he was once suspended for his statements and Chicago's Cardinal George specifically forbade him from making antisemitic statements during a 2000 visit to Chicago.

Another perspective on the story is available at Polonia Today, but this appears to be the only other recent English-language story on the issue.

In my opinion, Jankowski should have been fired long ago for his antisemitic statements. During the papacy of a Polish pope who has made tremendous strides in Catholic-Jewish relations, the refusal of the Polish episcopate to take decisive action against Jankowski only reinforces the notion that Polish Catholics venerate the Pope but don't listen to him.

A happy exception to this state of affairs is Cardinal Franciszek Macharski, Archbishop of Kraków, who seems to have proven himself in every respect a worthy successor to Karol Wojtyla.

To tell you the truth, I am already dry. Also, I'm not so sure that writing the Vatican is an altogether silly idea.

In my neighborhood, there is an openly gay priest. There are such people, also, at a Jesuit institution at which I once taught. There are people within the Church who are actively working to end racism against Jews and others, discrimination against gays. It's got to end, you know. The world won't end with you and me. Other Jews, Pagans, gays will come after us.

Bought a coupla books on Paganism.

"Want to do something constructive? Write to Benedict. Tell him something about respect for people who aren't just like him."

You forget. I was subhuman and Satanic in his eyes *before* he embraced that splinter group.

Dry up.

PaganPlace:

I'm not after you. You want to fight with me and so many other people, who actually like you, or would, if you'd let them. I don't know how many people, including yours truly, have posted in support of gay rights again and again. There are people who are prejudiced against gays, Pagans, Jews, anyone or anything that will enable them to surrender their ability to think. Thinking is a burden for bigots.

It seems to me that the real battles should be against bigotry and ignorance, which benefit one one.

And, yes, Farnazz. I have read the history. The *same stuff* conservative Christians and some Jews say about me to my face here is the *same sh*** the Nazis were saying about all Jews not too long ago, in another land of 'It Can't Happen Here.'

Don't know why it's me you're going after.

More like a cool million , that anyone, including the Allies, bothered to acknowledge. And let's not forget about the Roma. Again. Unrecorded.
___________________

Excuse me. I posted information on both the Roma and Sinti, now called the Roma, more than once. Take your pugnacious self over to Jacoby's thread or over to Stevens-Arroyo's thread for information. The "number" is not known. Howver, the Jews, Simon Wiesenthal, spent his life trying to help the Roma, and to fight against continuing racism against them.

_____________________

Are you jealous of Jews, PP? Do you want two thousand years of anti-Jewish persecution behind you? No problem. Convert. Then you'll get to have it in your face. Obviously, facing discrimination as a gay Pagan isn't enough for you.

Are you a masochist or something? And you're doing a good job of taking this way off topic.

Want to do something constructive? Write to Benedict. Tell him something about respect for people who aren't just like him.

I think it may be a hard thing for you, Farnazz, and I'm sorry.

Germany, F'n did that. It wasn't the Poles. It wasn't the Sudetenland, It wasn't the Latvians or the queers or a few dozen Wiccans in the New Forest.

Germany did that.

It doesn't make sense.

That's what makes it hard.

That's what means.

No shortcuts.

Not for Popes, not for you, not for me, not for anyone.

OK?

I AM NOT GOING TO DISCUSS THIS WITH YOU UNTIL YOU DISCOVER SOMETHING ABOUT THE GAY PEOPLE PERSECUTED AND KILLED DURING THE HOLOCAUST. YOU WERE GIVEN AN EXTENSIVE BIBLIOGRAPHY.

HERE IS A LINK.

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/homosexuals_02/

I mean, what's the 'final' word on this?

"The number came nowhere close to "millions." Let's be accurate shall we?"

More like a cool million , that anyone, including the Allies, bothered to acknowledge. And let's not forget about the Roma. Again. Unrecorded.

" Best guess, it was significantly less than a million. That doesn't make it all right."

"Again, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE, SELF-CONFESSED GAY PAGAN, WHO REFUSES TO READ ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF GAY PEOPLE, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO RECOVER."

I'm a Pagan. I have nothing to 'confess' about either. If I weren't Pagan I wouldn't have been going up against serious odds to get Christians off Jewish kids all my life, and being thanked for it by occasional grudging not mentioning how 'unclean' I'm supposed to be.

Except by the family that took me in when my own Catholic one was ...well, justifying not pretty things.

I dunno what your ethnic damage is, here, Farnazz.

None of it justifies this Pope, elected in part by an archbishop my hometown would have tarred and feathered if we could, or *nothing.*

Stop making off like you get to tell me to back off Nazi BS and then claim it's something defective about Europeans or whatever.

Just messed-up s****. We don't fix it, unless we stand and look at it. Whoever we are.

Dig?

well, Ok, then. That was very definitively, and finally, incoherent.

Final words on this and I mean final:

THE UKRAINIANS, ROMANIANS, HUNGARIANS, LATVIANS, NORWEGIANS, LITHUANIANS, POLES, RUSSIANS, FRENCH, ETC., FASCIST AND NAZI MURDERERS WERE OBVIOUSLY NOT GERMAN BORN. THEY WERE CATHOLIC, LUTHERAN, PROTESTANT, CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX FOR AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS.

PaganPlace:

"And mentioning that selfsame Nazis killed queer folks by the millions, too."

The number came nowhere close to "millions." Let's be accurate shall we? Best guess, it was significantly less than a million. That doesn't make it all right.

Again, YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE, SELF-CONFESSED GAY PAGAN, WHO REFUSES TO READ ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF GAY PEOPLE, WHAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO RECOVER.

There was a Pagan revivial of sorts among the Nazis. IT WAS YOU, HOWEVER, NOT I, WHO FOCUSED ON IT. IN THE BIBLIOGRAPHY I POSTED THERE WERE SOURCES OF THAT PAGANISM.

THE GERMANS WHO BECAME NAZIS WEREN'T GERMAN JEWS, HINDUS, MUSLIMS, OR PERSONS OF JEWISH, HINDU OR MUSLIM DISSENT. THEY WERE GERMAN-BORN LUTHERANS, OR CATHOLICS, OR PROTESTANTS OF SOME OTHER KIND, GOING BACK AT LEAST TWO GENERATIONS.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TAKE IT UP WITH THE AMERICAN NAZI PARTY.
___________________
I'm done. Be a victim somewhere else. But at least have the decency to familiarize yourself with the history we have.

Like that, yeah. Screw 'em. They don't know you, they don't know me, and if the Pope or any preacher, likes em, he knows where he can stuff it.

Right?

MEET FR. RYZDYK, ANTI-SEMITIC POLISH PRIEST NOW UNDER INVESTIGATION BY THE POLISH GOVERNMENT.

30-01-2008 / Poland
Poland - Prosecutor to start investigation into priest controversial remarks

A Polish prosecutor will start an investigation into the controversial statements made last year by Father Tadeusz Rydzyk, the founder of Radio Maryja, a Catholic radio station known for its anti-Semitic broadcasts, press reports said.
The decision to start an investigation, decided by a court in Torun, is a response to a complaint by a Polish Jewish organization against the anti-Semitic statements that were made by, or attributed to the priest.
Father Rydzyk was quoted at a meeting with university students last summer as accusing Jews of greed in a government compensation deal on confiscated property.
He also reportedly denounced Poland's President Lech Kaczynski as a "fraudster who is in the pockets of the Jewish lobby."
The priest has denied making the inflammatory remarks but popular magazine Wprost claims to have a recording of Rydzyk’s statements.
Jewish group had called on Pope Benedict XVI to condemn the statements and to discipline Father Rydzyk and his broadcast outlet.

Same reason, Farnazz, that the Church wants to say this is 'no big deal' ...is the exact same reason you felt it was no big deal to try and identify *me* with anti-Semites.

None of it's true.

Doesn't seem a big deal.

Till it happens to you.

I seem to recall you not making a lot of sense when you were looking to put the blame elsewhere than reality, Farnazz, and knowing it's painful for you for whatever reason. But I also recall you presuming I was blaming the Catholics at the time as well.

When I was speaking about key differences between modern Pagans, even of nordic stripes, and what the SS was up to.

And mentioning that selfsame Nazis killed queer folks by the millions, too.

And that it's not about labels.

That it's about lest we forget.

PaganPlace: re: Your Post. I said some nazis were gay and bisexual. Some were, but they appear to have been small in number. One of the most notorious, vicious, and sick bisexual nazis was Irma Griese. (Use google; See Lengyel, Five Chimnneys, available at Amazon)

I seem to recall your denying that Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Russians, Ukranians, Hungarians, Romanians, et al, ordinary church-going people, simply left their homes and places of business to go out and slaughter Jews en masse. I seem to recall having posted that the nazis, when they arrived, tried to end this undisciplined mass murder as it did not meet nazi efficiency standards. I seem to recall your denying it.

I seem to recall having posted endless web sites, books, articles, sources with photographs attesting to every claim I made. I seem to recall your endless denial.

Now, does that denial ring a bell? Hmmm...Let's think about it. Where have we heard that sort of thing before?
_____________________

All this still begs the question of why you continually accuse others of ignoring Nazi persecution of homosexuals, when the only one ignoring it is you.
--------------------
After this, Pagan Place, if you want to fight, you'll have to find a different "opponent."

Hey, Rabbi, it isn't *just* jews that are annoyed with this BS from this pope. My granfather spent his postwar years mostly medicated after having spent his last several months of the war nursing concentration camp survivors back to health, or watching them die, *after* fighting his way into Germany from France. The man was like a ghost. The army came to his funeral, and talked about how heroic he'd been. We never got to see that. The man was like a ghost he was so heavily medicated by the VA, after several violent outbursts after the war. Screw this bishop, screw this pope, and may they both goosestep in hell.

"If you sincerely care about any of the Reich's gay victims, you should inform yourself. It's not pleasant, I grant you. The truth often isn't. But they died, PP, for nothing. They are owed something."

Actually, Farnazz, I seem to remember our first discussion having something to do with you trying to claim that the 'Reich' was all about queer neopagans.'

"New Catholic Bishop Believes that Hurricane Katrina was Caused by LGBT People"

No bull, right? They think we have that much influence over the weather and don't believe us about the thermal retention. What can you do, right?

MORE ON CATHOLIC CLERGY AND GAYS: FOR PP AND EVERYONE:

New Catholic Bishop Believes that Hurricane Katrina was Caused by LGBT People

by Michael A. Jones

Published February 02, 2009 @ 04:46AM PST

BenedictHas Pope Benedict XVI fallen off his rocker? First came news last week that he's "re-communicated" Bishop Richard Williamson, a conservative Catholic leader who has denied the Holocaust. Now comes news that he's named Father Gerhard Maria Wagner an Auxiliary Bishop in Austria. What has Fr. Wagner done to deserve this title?

According to the Times Online, he's blamed Hurricane Katrina on sexual perverts and gay people. Hmm...are beliefs like Williamson's and Wagner's the new standard for bishops these days? If so, that says something pretty tragic about the Catholic Church.

Fr. Wagner, in addition to his Hurricane Katrina comments, also believes that the Harry Potter books spread satanism.

Bishop accuses gays of 'conspiracy' against the Catholic Church
by Times Online
Thanks to Peter Waine for the link.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3545414.ece

Bishop accuses gays of 'conspiracy' against the Catholic Church
Joanna Sugden

A Catholic bishop has accused the gay community of leading a "conspiracy" against Christianity by allying itself with Holocaust survivors.

The Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine, says a "homosexual lobby" has aligned itself with minority groups, including Holocaust survivors, to gain persecuted status.

He said there was a "huge and well orchestrated conspiracy" taking place in the "gay movement", which the Catholic Church neglected "at our peril".

The bishop, who has previously spoken out against the Labour government's support for civil partnerships, said the "lobby" was "ever present" at services for Holocaust Memorial Day. "The impression is that they have been equally persecuted," he said.

In an attack on openly gay actor Sir Ian McKellen the bishop said: "I saw actor Ian McKellen being honoured for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail."

He made the comments during a lecture on "Christian faith and inconvenient questions" in Glasgow on Tuesday and has since stood by them, "These groups are defending their position, I am defending mine", he said. "It is all about a lifestyle alien to the Christian tradition. There is a giant conspiracy against Christian values, an agenda here."

A spokesman defended the bishop's comments, "Anything which attacks the sanctity of marriage and the family will be opposed by the church," he said. Civil partnerships are "an abuse" of the church's teaching on marriage, he told Times Online.

Christine Shaw, head of Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, said it was important to remember all the victims of the Holocaust "be they Jewish, disabled, gay or lesbian people".

"The day is also about learning the lessons of the past to encourage society to tackle all forms of prejudice, including anti-Semitism, racism and homophobia," she said.

Calum Irving, director of Stonewall Scotland, which promotes equality and justice for gay people, said the bishop was "deluded".

He told The Scotsman: "Such a continued attack on gay people is distinctly un-Christian and deeply out of step with the views of most Scots today."

paganpalce writes: "I mean, hey, Farnazz, maybe Jews, in turn, could recognize how many *queers* the Nazis killed, too."

Jews have, again and again, and again. The only person who hasn't, it seems, is you. And only because you refuse to go to any of the Web sites I post.

If I were you, I'd start with the USHMM sites and then move on.

If you sincerely care about any of the Reich's gay victims, you should inform yourself. It's not pleasant, I grant you. The truth often isn't. But they died, PP, for nothing. They are owed something.

http://www.google.com/search?q=USHMM+gays&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

I mean, hey, Farnazz, maybe Jews, in turn, could recognize how many *queers* the Nazis killed, too.

Should it ever come up in politics or anything.

" Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

obx2004:

Will the Anti-Defamation League step up to the moral plate when the Vatican goes on another one of it's rants about homosexuals or feminists?
_______________________

Will homosexuals or feminists step up the next time an anti-Jewish racists event occurs?"

Viddy.

obx2004:

Will the Anti-Defamation League step up to the moral plate when the Vatican goes on another one of it's rants about homosexuals or feminists?
_______________________

Will homosexuals or feminists step up the next time an anti-Jewish racists event occurs?

Will the Anti-Defamation League step up to the moral plate when the Vatican goes on another one of it's rants about homosexuals or feminists?

Thomas "The Moses of the NT" Baum,

Jesus was Jewish, yes, but he was not the son of any god. He was apparently the illegitimate son (mamzer as per Professor Bruce Chilton) of Joseph and Mary. He trained under The Baptizer and made a good sermon although was not literate. He got a bit carried away in the Jewish Temple, got arrested and summarily crucified by Roman troops who were ordered to deal with agitators quickly and without a trial.

Unfortunately the likes of P, M, M, L and J made this simple preacher man into the Jewish messiah embellishing his life to fit the OT prophecies to save the Jewish religion which was floundering after the sacking and destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. Fortunately Paul was able to convince a large number of rich gentiles that this "messiah" would save them also and that he would be coming back in Paul's life time to take them to the promised land (if their donations were large enough). They died waiting and so will we all.

The question needs to be asked again.

Would the Pope readmit to the Catholic Church Bishops who publicly endorsed, contraception, a woman's right to choose, or same sex marriage?

If he would not, then why is anti Semitism acceptable from a Bishop?

How does the Church or the Pope determine where the moral lines are drawn?

I'm not really actually seing it as 'overreaction.'

Church makes political statements about *John Kerry,* and is willing to defame whole classes of people, but all of a sudden wants *approving of those guys* to be ignored as an 'Internal matter?'

Hrm.

No, it's part of a pattern. New Pope is right-wing.

Lot of people in the Church don't wanna go there. A lot of others were inclined to agree with Mel Gibson a little too much already, and where's that go.

Now, if this anti-Semitic and very nasty society wants to be like they're going back to the Church for spankings, well, maybe Mr. Moral Absolutist could work that in with the other political meddling.

It looks like what it looks like.

The Jews are the Chosen People for the simple reason that God chose them and God not only chose them but God formed them and God not only formed them but God became One of them, Jesus, God-Incarnate.

If anyone wants to know why there is Anti-Semitism in the world and why it is on the rise, the simple answer is that: satan is real and satan is upset considering his time is short and getting shorter and satan is a sore loser.

As I have said Jesus, God-Incarnate, was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew. Jesus became a member of the human race as a Jew.

The Jews are not a race but a People, we are all members of the human race, Jews and Gentiles alike.

God's Plan is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth. God has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition. God's Plan is unfolding before our very eyes.

God is not a He, a She, or an It but is a BEING OF PURE LOVE, a Trinity.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

baruchgershom writes: "Anti-semitism is thriving in Europe today. It has to be exposed and opposed whenever it appears, otherwise, the big lies that underlie anti-semitism will take further root and grow."

I agree with absolutely. But not only in Europe. Here, as well. If there is any doubt, all one needs to do is scroll down. Go to the different threads here, for instance, Susan Jacoby's, Stevens-Arroyo's. Read his essay first. Anti-Jewish racism is much worse in Europe, but it's bad here as well.

One needs to call it by its ugly name. And more, much more. You don't put out fires with a cup of water.

Here is Bishop Williamson "explaining" the Holocaust. Listen and see for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM

For an extra added attraction: Here is Williamson explaining why 9/11 was an "inside job."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7fjGxfNsKk

I disagree. Anti-semitism is thriving in Europe today. It has to be exposed and opposed whenever it appears, otherwise, the big lies that underlie anti-semitism will take further root and grow.

Rabbi,

I really don't know what planet you're on. Did you listen to Williamson's take on the Holocaust?
If you really don't get it, scroll down to Mary Cunningham's post. She's posted on other threads with much the same message. Anti-Semitism is the "Jews" fault.

Believe it, Rabbi. Just scroll down. Catholics are not the best friends of Jews. Take it from and insider.

Rabbi Irwin Kula has had it too good... a blissful life in the world’s largest and most free democracy of the world. In a country where most of its people have kindness and mercy deeply imbedded in their moral fiber.
Consequently - in my opinion - Rabbi Irwin Kula (I stress his first name not to confuse him with his ancestors) - has totally lost his focus, his orientation and may be suffering from amnesia.
He should be sent along with Williamson to a fact finding mission, to learn from the left over’s of the several Nazi German concentration camps, Nazi German extermination camps and Nazi German mass murder grave sites in the world.
According to Rabbi Irwin Kula Williamson is an "an obscure, irrelevant, cranky old man" and he goes on to say "with no power"...
Well... Rabbi Irwin Kula please carefully note this fact: so was Hitler, backed by Pope Pious XII.
And in this case - as with Hitler - it is the Pope himself who is giving this obscure, irrelevant, cranky old man all the power - and relevance - he needs.
This is precisely the point. Rabbi Irwin Kula, regrettably, missed it completely.

Rabbi Irwin Kula has had it too good, a blissful life in the world’s largest and most free democracy of the world. In a country where most of its people have kindness and mercy deeply imbedded in their moral fiber.
Consequently - in my opinion - Rabbi Irwin Kula (I stress his first name not to confuse him with his ancestors) - has totally lost his focus, his orientation and is may be suffering from amnesia.
He should be sent along with Williamson to a fact finding mission, to learn from the left over’s of the several Nazi German concentration camps, Nazi German extermination camps and Nazi German mass murder grave sites in the world. But then again that could be a total waste.
According to Rabbi Irwin Kula Williamson is an "an obscure, irrelevant, cranky old man" and he goes on to say "with no power"...
Well... Rabbi Irwin Kula please carefully note of this fact: so was Hitler, backed by Pope Pious XII.
And in this case it is the Pope himself who is giving this obscure, irrelevant, cranky old man all the power - and relevance - he needs.
This is precisely the point, but regrettably Rabbi Irwin Kula missed it completely.

He's giving mixed signals and people are confused and upset about it. It's understandable. He should be more forthright and articulate in his pronunciations -- pay greater attention to the "PR" aspect of his worldly influence. If that is a weakness in him, he can enlist the help of people.

I guess the question comes down to where the Pope draws the moral lines for the Church.

What would the Pope do about readmitting an ousted Bishop who openly advocated birth control?

What would the Pope do about readmitting an ousted Bishop who openly advocated a woman's right to choose ?

What would the Pope do about readmitting an ousted Bishop who openly advocated same sex marriage?

What would the Pope do about readmitting an ousted Bishop who openly advocated anti Semitic views?

Well, I guess we know the answer to the last one.

The question arises as to where the Church chooses to draw its moral lines, and what that tells us about the Pope who draws those lines.

Bobman,

The Pope means to reunite with the conservative elements of the Anglican and Catholic Church. First the SSPX--and in light of the rising trend of anti-semitism it is urgent that this group be welcomed back to the fold of the Church and Williamson disciplined--then the TAC (Anglican Communion) which probably will formally unite after Easter or at the beatification of John Henry Newman, whichever is earlier. Finally some type of rapprochement with the Orthodox.

The German Shepherd is rounding up his stray sheep, and with some urgency.

I don't know, maybe he knows something we don't about the times we're in? I don't mind saying the reaction to the Reich piece yesterday--so much very nasty antisemitism--made this Catholic uneasy.

Dear Rabbi Kula,

Thank you for an intelligent article, especially because there it seems there *has* been a resurgence of anti-Semitism..but not from the Catholic Church.

It has been precipitated mostly by the latest invasion of Gaza and the Israeli bombing of civilians (full disclosure, I found the deaths of the children distressing and shocking), it has been amplified by the financial crisis and the role of prominent disgraced Jews such as Fuld, Greenberg and B. Madeoff, even Alan Greenspan who is widely quoted as responsible for the bubbles (he was, but that is another issue). This hostility in the US is stemming primarily from the anti-religious left, not conservative religious right, Catholic or otherwise. In the UK as well, it comes also comes from the secular left, amplified by Muslims. In Europe the same.

For the life of me I know you should amend much of your material but how I don't know. I do know the OTT reaction of the anti-defamation 'never again' Jewish lobbies is another amplification mechanism. So is the suppression of criticism of Israel by the US mainstream media. What has happened is that its gone underground...or overseas to other English newspapers.

I am linking probably the best article on the Williamson affair, which insofar as rising antisemitism is concerned is a complete side show. Note that the SSPX issued a statement designed to make clear how marginal a figure Williamson was in 2007: "A Catholic cannot be anti-Semitic without destroying the origin and essence of his own faith." But only in the past week has it managed to discipline and silence him.

"A broad church after all"
http://tinyurl.com/b62476

I so very much hope that you can take some action to stem what is a very ugly (and growing) animosity,

Yours with her fingers crossed,

MC
London

A good piece.

It's the doctrinaire approach of the Pope that is disturbing. This is not an isolated event. He was the 'enforcer' for the previous Pope. He has turned his back on the reforms of Vatican II. By 'solidifying the base' he increases religious polarization and division. In addition, he still hasn't reconciled with Pastafarians, lovers of His Noodly Appendage, the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

"this Pope's historic visit to Auschwitz in which he unambiguously recognized the evil perpetrated upon Jews in the Holocaust and in his way "repented" for any contribution distorted Church teachings made to create the ground for such evil to erupt."

Overall, an interesting blog. But this comment, I cannot understand.

Distorted church teachings? How can centuries of church teachings all be distorted? How can the Spanish Inquisition be distorted teachings, when this "distortion" went on from the 13th to the 19th centuries?

One visit to a camp is repentance for centuries of persecution (whether directly led, aided or overlooked) by the Catholic Church? This one visit by one pope - without any distinct acknowledgment of what exactly he is repenting for - or acknowledging any Nazi/catholic church collusion - this is what you call repentance?

Rabbi Kula misses the point. It is not the mere rantings of a single crackpot that are at concern here, but a pattern of dismissiveness by the current Pontiff, including his reintroduction of the Prayer to Convert the Jews into the Catholic Mass.

Rabbi Kula seems to ignore the rising tide of anti-semitism and anti-Jewish violence in the United States, Europe, and Turkey. Reinstating a an avowed anti-semite into a position of significant authority in the Catholic Church sends a powerful message of disrespect, if not hatred to our people. Wake up Rabbi.

The Vatican could be publishing the records of the clergy who were imprisoned and murdered by Hitler and help re-educate this bishop and others by providing proof that events happened as recorded.

Than you, Rabbi Kula, for your comments. I am a Catholic who wonders why Benedict cannot learn the art of mass communcation and why the Vatican press office cannott have a communication strategy. But, be that as it may, I have been agast at much of the reaction to this internal church affair. The lifing of these bishops' excommuncations has never included approval of the views of SSPX. In fact, it is not certain that these four gents will ever function as bishops in the Catholic Church should there actually be a reconciliation. In light of that I have been disappointed in the vociferous reaction of some Jewish leadership -- it as though no relationship has been built up over the last 40+ years and the inclusion of Bp. Williamson in the lifting of the excommunication was happening in a vacuum. It seems to me that some of these folks approach the church with an unrelenting hermaneutics of suspicion that operates in overdrive. Surely we are beyond that!

May I end by saying that when matters invoving the Catholic Church and the Pope arise, the commentary section of On Faith is very disappointing reading. As you point out, Rabbi, the church has over a billion members. Plus it has 2000 years of functioning. All that yields plenty of material for praise and criticism. Much of what I have been reading on this site is over the top, hatefu, unfactual (no the Pope was never a Nazi -quite the opposite) and sometimes obscene. How about some moderation? How about some informed criticism? How about some recognition that the reality of Catholicism (like other major religions in the world) is multicultural and complex? The truth demands it.

If I where Jewish this Pope would scare me out of my mind. I am very grateful that I live in the western hemisphere as it is. The real meaning of this last action of the Pope is, "the Reformation is over and we won."

Though the situation is somewhat different here, in Europe Catholicism is brushing aside Protestantism and absorbing it remains.

The new Pope is by far more sectarian than the previous. His own views on the Holocaust are hardly more encouraging than outright Holocaust deniers.

His denial that Christian sectarianism was a major factor in the Holocaust makes it hard to believe that he takes the dangers of his increased sectarianism seriously.

When you look at the demographic trends in Europe and Africa Jewish people face an increasingly sectarian and political Christianity and Islam that is increasingly uncaring about out group actors.

This is the time to be afraid, very very afraid.

Some horrific WW2 reminders from
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm:

Auschwitz, Poland (German death camp: Jan. 1942-Jan. 1945): 1 200 000
US Holocaust Memorial Museum, Historical Atlas of the Holocaust and www.ushmm.org
Jews: 1,100,000
Poles: 75,000
Roma: 21,000
Soviet POWs: 15,000
Norman Davies: 1,200,000-1,500,000 victims, of which 800,000-1,100,000 Jews

European War Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
Sino-Japanese War Dead (1937-45): 7,140,000

War-related Democides
Hitler: 20,946,000
Stalin: 13,053,000
Japanese: 5,964,000
Chinese Nationalist: 5,907,000
Allied Bombing: 796,000
Croatian: 655,000
Tito: 600,000
Romanian domestic democide: 484,000
Chinese Communist: 250,000
Hungarian democide in Yugoslavia: 78,000
[TOTAL: 48,733,000]

[TOTAL OF BOTH (1937-45): 84,609,000]

Rabbi Kula sad to say, with all the talent, Jews have not learnt anything from history.

Jews have worked through the history for short term gains. They have still not faced the facts and analysed. Why Holocaust ?

most of the Jews do not recognise Jesus as a prophet and belittle him and Mary as fake.

Germans were not demented nor they enjoyed what happened, it was reaction to torment of years of short term gains like today. Hence everyone was quiet at the time of Holocaust.

Again actions of Jews has created such deep hatred with Arabs,that if anyone is thinking of any compromise, he must be a fool.

Position of Israel has become like Al Qaeeda making a base in Manhattan with support of a super power.

Israel has survived with the backing and support of America. I cannot see any other country supporting Israel in their next trail, which apparently is not far.

Soon their only supporter America will back out once it is known that all the swindled money from the current economic melt down is deposited in Jewish banks in Europe and Israel.

Future look dreadful for this so called chosen race

the usual haters are here- aipacis war and whisling- don't try to couch your hatred in anything to do with the topic. Your writings are always the same.

While there is some foundation for your view that major Jewish organizations overreacted to the Pope's reintstatement of this marginal figure, there is no basis whatsoever for the idea that this is part of a papal effort to create a broader or more inclusive church. Both before and after his installation as Pope, Benedict has been uncompromising in his exclusion and disciplining of progressive elements in the church, whether they be liberation theologians, women's advocates, or gay people of faith. His "compassionate" and forgiving attitude towards those who have sheltered fleeing Nazi war criminals and questioned the Holocaust may not express Benedict's personal feelings about Jews, but it certainly expresses his strong bias towards right-wing authoritarian elements in the church and against any tendencies that enhance the power of laypeople, women, the economically oppressed, or those with other sexual orientations.

But of course the whole thing is an attempt to shout 'holocaust' one more time...
trying to shout over the Gaza barbarity.

And in fact it was none of the silly rabbis' business. All they do is scream around.

They might want to notice that a furious, and surely dangerous
anti-semitism is growing exponentially all over the world, and certainly in America. Of course if you read WAPO, you don't have a clue.

But shouting holocaust one more time is more harm than good, many think.

Rabbi--

Nice work.
We live in a complicated world, to be sure, where every crackpot get his fifteen minutes of fame, but where an an entire industry has sprung up around attacking-the-deniers. Unfortunately,the ADL winds up in the position of providing publicity and a platform that money can't buy.

There are dangerous purveyors of nonsense--e.g., Ahmadinejad ("there was no holocaust .. there are no gay people in Iran"), people with actual influence, and then there are meaningless ones. I can assure you that the average Catholic has not spent the past few days pondering the significance of Benedict's actions. He's becoming increasingly and dangerously irrelevant himself-- a learned man and a principled one, he's nonetheless a throwback when the Church needs, well, something of an Obama itself at the helm.

Seems to me that in these downright chaotic times both Benedict AND the ADL--and the international press for that matter--might be turning their attention to matters of greater moment.

MH

http://www.nosuppertonight.com

If anyone has been guilty of pontificating lately its the American Jewish Leadership.

Rabbi Kula, as one who feels a special love for the Jews precisely because they are Jews, I have never been able to understand the logic of anti-Semitism.

It is heartening when the call to end hysteria and see the incident in its right perspective comes from a Jewish Rabbi.

Bishop Williamson sounded pathetic in his ignorance at best. He needs to be sent on a fact finding tour to Germany and Poland and some counseling thereafter.

It would be a crying shame if the foolish remarks of one until recently ex-communicated Bishop destroyed the goodwill that has been built up between Jews and Catholics, the result of hard work by Jews and Catholics alike.

I applaud your stand and your call for a little more clarity in judging this issue in its right perspective.

No human being of goodwill would fail to be horrified at what happened to Jews in Germany during WW II. For anyone who has taken the time to read about it, it remains beyond comprehension. How much more then to Jews who must suffer jointly as a community. Mourning 6 million such deaths is not easy. It never will be. And people of goodwill understand.