Atheism/Agnosticism Plus Compassion Equals Humanism

Dear Mr Epstein

As soon as I read about Ms Armstrong's plan for formulating a charter of compassion, I was reminded instantly of the work of Professor Hans Kueng at the Global Ethic Foundation and its comprehensive document accepted at the World Parliament of Religions: Declaration Toward a Global Ethic. (Aside: I had mentioned that document and posted a link to it on this forum over 18 months ago when an atheist blogger, with the username, Acrapist, and I managed to finally agree - it goes without saying we disagreed on every other point all the time - even though God is taken for a completely dispensable entity by all atheists, ethics is not. Since 6 billion people with 6 billion + 1 different ideas of right and wrong cannot not build any kind of international society, there was a need for global ethics in an ever more interdependent world.)

http://www.global-ethic.org/dat-english/index.htm

http://www.global-ethic.org/pdf_decl/Decl_english.pdf

Although the comprehensive document was accepted the World Parliament of Religions fifteen years ago, it would seem that its existence is little known. In my personal opinion there is an urgent need to disseminate that comprehensive document, which has covered every aspect of ethics based on all religions and has been accepted unanimously at the World Parliament, through the United Nations, to all the religious and secular authorities in all member countries. The religious groups and religious leaders reading this forum could do their part in spreading the good word to their own religious communities.

Since the declaration has made provision for atheists to adopt the global ethics, it could serve your purposes for the atheist community well.

A new Charter on Compassion should cover new ground, areas that have not been yet covered by the document that already exists, without repeating what has been already accepted by an international body, The World Parliament of Religions.

Compassion is a state of mind, reflecting a certain level of consciousness. There needs to be an action plan for those who are not necessarily living at that level of consciousness. That is what the tenets of religions are all about, moral laws which is really compassion in action.

Wishing you great success in your endeavor with atheists!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

" Why believe in a god?
Just be good for goodness' sake."

Ads on DC METRO busses this season.
See: www.whybelieveinagod.com for more.

Being good and compassionate, is possible without depending on a "parent in the sky" for a reward or a punishment. It is part of our evolved psychology. We are born with it and learn in from our culture. Religion tries to keep us childlike by teaching that without rewards and punishments, and rules from a superior being ( god = parent), we could and would not be good. This is a flawed and obsolete paradigm.

tikibobo- i have to disagree with you. Relationships and people are hard work. There are just as many people doing the compassionate work you speak of for no other reason than empathy and compassion. They think, "there but for fortune go you or I" -that's a corollary of the Golden rule.

To do work with drug addicts, the mentally ill, the scorned, - you don't have to forgive them, not your place. You just have to care enough to try to help them because , you know- there but for fortune. i think that's a stronger, better way than saying I forgive you for being a drug addict because G-d said I had to. Those who do this kind of work simply out of human kinship have grace, but you just don't recognize it.

Your assumption that G-d gives you "true compassion" is really presumptuous. Now we're back to my belief system is better than yours kind of thing and it's unnecessary.

It's also the basis of much pain and destruction as religions each try to impose themselves and dominate. Christianity especially has a bad history, and you're illustrating it, by assuming only your version of G-d and what he wants is the true one.

There's no better or stronger reason to be compassionate than human kinship. For better or worse we are all on spaceship earth- what hurts you, also hurts me. Humanists do good works without thinking they'll gain a convert or a place in Heaven- they do it without ulterior motive, and without expecting something in return. That's human kinship, and too many religions, each with their own word of G-d, run roughshod over it.

I have not seen "forgiving" or "unmerited grace" on the part of most religions. Certainly not of late in this country.

Mr. Epstein: What is missing from your worldview is true compassion. You write: "given that we have so much forgiveness to earn, imagine if we as a society put more energy into earning it."

I see a lot of relationships today that are in shambles because each party expects the other to earn forgiveness, to deserve compassion. The word "grace" means "unmerited compassion." That's the story of the prodigal son, the Exodus, and the Cross. God doesn't wait for people to get their act together, he saves them while they are still a mess, because he is gracious.

The Golden Rule of the Bible goes beyond the Humanist version. The Humanist version says: "Love others as you want to be loved." God's version says: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another." (1 John 4)

See the difference? God loves people who don't deserve it. God's people should strive (not in their own strength by God's) to love in the same gracious way. It means I forgive my wife before she apologizes. And I help the drug addict who hasn't cleaned up his act yet. And I constantly give thanks for the unmerited love I have received.

CSicks

I really dig this article. I have to say that the a-religious do need to focus on forming more community oriented organizations, similar to parishes and churches. I definitely agree that the golden rule is one of the most fundamental principles of healthy, social interaction. It is as plain as water flowing downhill; human beings cannot create successful civilizations without it. However, I still temper our tolerance of the good within many religions with the knowledge of how misguided the origins of such institutions, and how a vast majority of the world still holds to tenets which are, objectively and indisputably, erroneous and harmful.

I hear what a lot of you are saying and am glad that mostly it is good dialog.

The best I can trace the Gold Rule was penned in 1400ish BC but handed down verbally through the Hebrew faith long before that. Confucianism and Buddhism are not confirmed until 600BC.

I believe that God has put eternity in our heart it says this in both Old and New Testaments. So we not only have a built in desire to do good (or a conscience)(may not always do it) and to seek something bigger then our selves.

How ever I struggle with the idea that we can do good with out an impartial check and balance. This is why I believe that God laid that foundation for us with out partiality and we should try to follow in it. With out this it leaves us to choose what is right in my own eyes and that changes with each individual or who ever is in authority. This does not mean you have to be my religion to comply. Where do you or any one of us draw a line?

irischermann- no offense taken at all. I love a good discussion too. And I'll still disagree about what constitutes a "faith." For me it is not the same thing as a religion. I consider myself Jewostic but I could also be called a Cardiac Jew. You know-I feel it in my heart :-). But to say an Atheist or an Agnostic or a Humanist has not faith is to say they believe in nothing. And that certainly isn't true. It's just that its not G-d-centric.

You can have faith your car will start in the morning, that the sun will set every evening, that people in grieve will weep and need comfort, that the hungry must be fed, and kittens must be rescued- even if for no other reason then they are part of the world we live in. Faith is a worldview- I'm speaking from the anthropological sense, and everyone has one of those.

I think we've come to define faith these days as it only related to religions, and that concept leaves a lot of people out in the cold for no real reason. we seem to have become very territorial about our words these days- we sloughed off the concepts and the contexts, and flattened them into labels and sound bites. We lose the richness of language and the richness of thought. then, I think we lose the richness of ourselves too.

As an atheist I intentionally avoid Humanists and the Humanist community, due in large part to their predilection for looking to big government to replace their abandoned gods. Compassion is one thing...even arguably a good thing...but calling on the force of government to address one's perceived need for compassion in some area or another is little more than robbing Peter to pay your own particular Paul.

No thanks...I prefer the libertarian golden rule: You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

Thank you for your efforts in helping families of Athiest's, Agnostics, and Humanists.

It is difficult to find adise when raising children outside of a religion. I wish I did live "up there" and could go to your seminar.

I use the powerful myths from human history to explain an ethical point to my children. My children love the story of Indra, Krishna, and the ants. They like the logical consequences of "The Golden Rule", especially as delivered by Jesus. And, I discuss the 'middle way' and truths.

Along with these myths, I talk about the scientific method and the differences between the religion and science. I want them to know about the scientific research dealing with our origions and the our place in the universe.

I tell them that in order to have a good understanding of this life, to understand the human endeavor, you must study science and religion.

I hope you write more about raising families without concretizing the religious stories into facts of history.

To all, families without religious beliefs are hard-working, moral, and patriotic. Please help us by being outraged by people using us as an example of an immoral person.

We have children we are raising that we love...

I'm not an atheist, How can you not believe in something which does not exist? :)

"The golden rule appears in every religion, as Armstrong points out."

I beg to differ. The article on WikiAnswers (URL below) goes into more depth but it seems Islam is an exception (a rather large one).

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_golden_rule_in_the_Koran

Dear Mr. Epstein,

I don't think you're going to get any arguments or complaints from this representative of the wiccan community. I'm getting more into the concept of Postmodern Mysticism, a concept that includes increased awareness of spiritual diversity. That awareness, among other things, forces us to reexamine "Missionary Work" that ultimately serves to oppress and debunks other myths of American Exceptionalism. That "Golden Rule" you speak of sounds a lot more like old greek cynic philosophy than Christianlty as it is usually practiced—I met and worked Christians who are the real deal—or the day to day activities of any of the "Big Five" religions. I'll bet you probably don't have any problems with Buddhism, a religion that neither requires or seeks a God.

So, like, Blessed Be!

PALLASATHENA1, SPARROW4, DOLPH924:
I certainly agree that Christianity must do more to practice what we preach (I'm a Christian too, though I'm not professing to be good one). Hypocrisy is hateful to me and, unfortunately, I see it happen often when I hear Christians talk about love, tolerance and compassion but then they turn around and suppress other religions and even push to get legislation to deny other people their rights simply because their lifestyle is "sinful". This is counter to the faith and gives the rest of us a bad name.

At the same time, dogma is often associated with Christianity (for understandable reasons), however, in fairness, it's certainly not the *only* religion guilty of this crime, nor is religion the only institution guilty of it either.

FREESTINKER:
I agree with you that atheism is *not* a faith or a religion, nor is agnosticism. I was an agnostic for 25 years and I should know. Atheism is belief in *no God* and agnosticism is simply *undecided*. These are *beliefs* and having a singular belief is not the same thing as being a member of a *faith*. Judaism, Hinduism, Paganism, and, yes, Humanism are examples are faiths, not just simple beliefs.

ALL:
I respect other people's opinions and beliefs. I do. I hope I haven't offended anyone with what I've written. I enjoy good intelligent discussion, especially with people I don't really agree with. That's how I learn.

This is nothing more than atheists trying to "have their cake and eat it too". While there may be individual atheists who excercise compassion, atheism -- on the whole -- is not a vehicle for compassionate action. Atheism encourages egotism and crushes the notion of social responsibility.

Atheism is not "faith", but an antithesis to faith itself. Secular Humanism, like that espoused by Epstein, is hardly more than guilt over his embrace of Darwinism and it's maligned social outlook.

Freethinker

I fully understand your ambivalence with my idea that it is a faith- and accept that. However, I have every right to believe and make it so---that is why I proclaim myself, like your desired screen name---a FREE THINKER as well. We are discussing compassion and I have compassion for your thought that it is a lack of faith. Hold that belief dear to you and I will hold mine dear to me. Blessings

Pallasthena1 and Sparrow4,

Atheism is not a faith and just because you "believe" it is doesn't make it so. Atheism is the lack of faith. To call atheism a faith is to misunderstand both!

Calling atheism a faith is like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby!

I do agree that the Golden Rule is a rule common to all humanity that existed long before modern religions adopted the philosophy as their own. It's origins are in human nature, not organized religion.

First religious piece that I can agree with in . . . well, perhaps ever. As a child, I was raised Baptist and I read the entire Bible (in a fit of false pride, even the begats). The one thing that is still with me today is a moral code based on the Golden Rule, a workable, one-sentence belief system.

I just wish that more who call themselves Christians would try a bit harder to live by that one remarkable rule. Hard to imagine that they could be quite as consumed with hatred for those different than themselves if they did that.

What a relief over here. Like an open, light filled room. I spend a lot of time in On Faith and the things you read are frightening. Reynolds, Shriver, the Mormon church proxi-baptising the dead. Yet they all tout their religion as comnpassionate and understanding and full of ethics. I'll be the first to admit it infuriates me- and it scares the hell out of me.

I agree with pallasathena that atheism, Agnosticism and Humanism are faiths, in the sense that adherents (for lack of a better word) put their trust into a body of thought and practice to move through the world.

Until the major religions accept them and Paganism as equals I fear we won't be able to do much. Until everyone understands that you don't have to necessarily believe in G-d to believe in doing right by your fellow man and the earth, we won't make any real progress. Just read the Reynold essay- it's a wonder of twisted, yes let's all have a dialogue so long at it ends with you accepting my religion.

Your words and thoughts are a breath of fresh air! I am totally in agreement that love and hate is a human trait and we must choose (basically take full responsibility for our actions). I will take it a step further. I believe the Golden Rule is simply in every DNA- children (infants and toddlers) show much more compassion than adults. They already know the Golden Rule before learning and understanding spoken words. I do not know what happened later- yet choices are made.

I am Pagan- yet understand fully of those who are atheist and agnostic or even humanist. I believe it is a choice to believe or not. For an example- I am a proud believer of Theistic Evolution. I do believe in Evolution- at the same time I believe it is guided---that is a choice that I made to believe in such. A choice that I make to be compassionate or hardhearted---each day I make those choices and at times, I must admit that I have unintentionally of been hardhearted ---I understand that, for I am only human. However, the wonderful thing about being human—is realizing that indeed I maybe of error.

I do believe that Karen Armstrong should not only address world religious leaders but leaders who have no faith, like you (even though I CHOOSE to believe that Atheism, Agnostics, and Humanism are a faith---many faiths lies in science and facts). I respect those who beg to differ that it is not and that is their right to believe it.

Anyways, thank you for such profound and passionate philosophy! I really enjoy reading your input!