Don't Exclude Humanists, Atheists from the Melting Pot

Shayna Arnold,

how in the world could the Book of Revelations reference "Muslims" specifically when the religion would not exist for many hundreds of years. I suspect the answer is some contorted interpretation of Revelations. Just once it would be nice for one of these so-called prophecies to be specific enough to not be a one size fits all. I mean if God had intended to call out that a Muslim would be the anti-christ, wouldn't it have been nice to be unambiguous about it? Poor believers, left to muddle through the confused and confusing pronouncements in order to find truth.

I very much disagree with your premise that the US is the first inter-faith country. India has been that for decades before the label even came around.

Well, at least we didn't have to put up with "Harold."

I see you are all struggling here -- religion, no religion, a little religion; God, gods, no God, no one knows God -- mostly politics under a not-so-different guise. Religion, and God, gods, have always been political first, last and always. After barbarism, one has the ancient Egyptian Empire, the ancient Greek Empire, then the Roman Empire -- the Roman Empire, both ancient and not so ancient.

None of these long-lasting empires, nations, made a move, without first consulting their religion. Rome lasted a thousand years, by anyone's reckoning -- actually longer, after adopting Christianity to their Pagan ways. Indeed, as the historian announced, "Christianity was the last great creation of the Ancient Pagan World."

The whole idea of politics is for any nation to last a long time. The Nazis did without religion -- lasted a dozen years. The Soviet Union, 70 years, give or take.

No, it hs been pretty much evidenced that a nation lasts very little time without a unifying religion -- so far. And that's about 10,000 years of human history.

So, Mr. Epstein, have at it, if you will -- and, good luck.

Reply: The Conflict We Chose: By Mark Weisbrot on 'onfaith' sister blog; "postglobal" today:

Note: It is AMERiCA who is the 'EViL EMPIRE" & not Modern Russia! The Tables hath turned & the 'Hand Writing is on the Wall too, Double Standard ‘s U.S.A & un-Friendlys! And

Mother/Father Russia is thee most genuinely Diverse, interfaith’d Nation on Holy Cosmic NEBULA-built Space-Ship Earth(s), aka S.S. GAiA, S.S. GEOiD, S.S. TELLUSng something. Not America. Not Europe.

---To Stupid Jealous Americans: note: RUSSiA is the Smartest & Richest on Earth today!

America Violated the 300 Year Clause of the Americans ALASKA PURCHASE & the Czarist Stipulation (Re Godless if turned Bolsheviks or not] where is says, [translated fron Cyrillic]

"If at any-time the U.S.A. Violates ANY of the Peaceful terms, that on demand, The RUSSiAN Government will pay 1,000 times the original purchase price........"

Att: Sour America, no more Sweet sweet America, HOUSTON, you have a Problem!

Russia Demands the Alaska that Ye Stole!

PS: G-8 Russia does not need! nor does China, nor India {will never fill that 'G' void}, hence ye will be not only alone, but check-mated out of the Bank & Political Theater!

PS: Att: U.S. Federal Reserve of Dec.1914 et seq: RETURN The GOLD Bullion That Ye Americans & Friends hath Stolen from Mother/Father RUSSiA et al! iNCAMERA (secret) This is how the American ROBBER BARONS got their Start in that era! Silenly Thank Mother/Father Russia! And also ALL JEWS in America, Israel & on Earth!
Say SPA-SEE-VA! Da!

Hence: Russia wants both "ALASKA" & "GOLD" that Ye Hath Stolen from RUSSiA Major! Not Minor!

---
Ps: Russia, Venezuelan, Iran, Cuba , China & India are gonna Gang-up on YE! 3rd World War & not 'Cold War' rhis time around ARMAGEDDON Loving & Provocative’s, EVANGELiCALS NATiON U.S.A.! Aka Jealousicals, aka EViLGELiCAL & Catholics Nationals [Judeo-Ju‘s turned Judeo-Christs]

iMPORTANT: Caucus type Georgians are worse than Gypsy's! And They hath their own Dialect/Lingo. And RUSSiA, the ones whom EDUCATED, FED , Protected & Clothed for 50 Years, does not want nor like Georgians! They are dark greasy haired Devilish folk with long-crooked noses & snaked faces. A step away from Low Lifes! They are known as the 'People from ABROAD!"! [Refusniks!]! And Russia is right to Not Want them, nor their Land! Only America Wants ye to Think So!

PS: Gerigians should Pay for the 22 Million Russians [not Georgians] that their 'Father' STALiN hath Wrought! If JEW(s) can collect Human Wrong 'REPERATIONS" (via national government Moneys) from Germany because of what Catholic-Hitler did, then Georgians (America can chip-in) must pay Russians for what Catholic Stalin ]Georgians, not Germany] did Atrocitly !!! OR

Georgians Government, via Mr. [American Satanic Puppet] Mikheil Saakashvili [aka sak-a-sh-ti] must pay the RUSSiAn FEDERAtION 'Reimbursement' for HEALTH, Education, Protection, Housing etc.. expenses that [Hard Working] RUSSiAn (not Americans] Paid Out!!! SO,

America, If Ye want, Ye surely Will Be Destroyed!

W A R N I N G: So Please STOP pushing Buttons so to spaketh TRUTH (opposite of MYTH)! An d STOP spreading Rumors of 'Cold War!' Note: Ye wish might come TRUE!

---
WHEREFORE: VOTE, "Gridarian Democracy & Trans{finite} Civilization", Healing of Nations & Global Peace & More Good Tidings.."
---
WOW! The Evilgelical Nationalis are getting Scared! SCHAMe SATANS ADvocates & ye Devish schemes!

VOTE: Deport all imported Religion SYSTEMS, not made in America! Time to remove all SECUALR privileged (not a right) of "ALL" 'IRS Tax Free Status' to All REliGiON(s) not Prophesied nor Borneth in Sweet Sweet America, Whom the "NiCOLAiTAN”s {Enemys of Apocalyptarian Nationals} tried to Hi-jack [attempted Coup D at at] via PULPiT LEGiSLATiON, not from the Seculars Bench!

WARNiNG World: These Evangelical folks are worse than COMMUNiSTS! Not Secular Russia or China et al!

Paid For BY: The American 'EC{LAT{ARiAN'--NATiONALis' Movement & the 'JO{KTAN}ian' Party 2013+ for “SiNGULARiTY” SYSTEM() on this Hol{i}-Planet of Many, not man-made Religion(s)! zero Pre-Apocalyptic ‘PLURALiTY System(s)!

By: Interfaith Nation, US.:
NOTiCE TO SUE , in FEDERAL COURT: NEWS CORP., MYSPACE, Washington Post, NYP, NYT et al:

-
According to Federal LAW, "i" Jacob JO...Z, herein NOW, Electronically serve'd "NEWS CORP., Et Al" as per after many many Warnings.

By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

LiVE, FROM:CONEY ISLAND NEW YORK YA!

NOTiCE TO SUE , in FEDERAL COURT: NEWS CORP., Washington Post, NYP, NYT et al:

Note To Alot Of WAPO's socalled PRE-APOCALYPTiC 'Moderator(s)", YE All

Are SUPER-STUPiD-STiTiOUSLY Devilishly Jealous of O.U.R. “EC{CLATi}-ON” NEW RelIGiON from Old!

Wow! EC{LAT} 'Not Allowed!
Wow JOK{TAN} 'Not Allowed!

Thank You 'onfaith' & 'postglobal' for allowing me to go Forward in U.S. FEDERAL COURT, after giving al ye Many many FAiR Warnings: For Religious Discrimination, Theft of iNTELLECTUASL Property, Plagiarism etc!

August 28, 2008 6:04 P

.
Live From: CONEY ISLAND NEW YORK YA!

Thank You 'onfaith' & 'postglobal' , after giving Ye many “FAiR” warnings, for allowing me to go Forward in U.S. FEDERAL COURT For 1) Religious Discrimination , 2)Theft of iNTEELECTUAL Property , 3Plagiarism .………………..nth etc!

By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

Originally Posted On 'onfaith' Moderators SUSAN K. SMiTH

Orig posted on 'ONRELIGION' posted On Moderators Susan K. Smith site Posted August 28, 2008 6:04 PM

Posted on 'ONFAiTH' moderator Sue Thistlethwaite site August 28, 2008 6:43 PM

Posted on 'POSTGLOBAL' on moderators STEVEN MUFSON site August 28, 2008 6:48 PM

Posted on Moderators Sally Quinns site 'ONFAITH' August 28, 2008 6:59 PM.

Posted on Moderator Deepak Chopra 'ONFAiTH' cite August 28, 2008 7:15 PM.

Posted on Moderators Susan Jacoby 'ONFAiTH' site August 28, 2008 7:20 PM.

Duly served on 'ONFAiTH' Moderator Greg M. Epstein August 28, 2008 7:23 PM

Onfaith Epstein again August 28, 2008 7:28 PM

Duly served ONFAiTH moderator Welton Gaddy August 28, 2008 7:37 PM

August 28, 2008 7:38 PM

August 31, 2008 3:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments

Posted on August 31, 2008 03:32

Greg M. Epstein is a Budhhist + Transcendentalist movement organizer, not Ju:

Schame, SCHAME discusting ScHAME on Harvards so called Rabbi Epstein, et al, the judeo-Ju-boy, playing the Devils "Secular + Huminista advocate card.

Hello {world}:

Harvards Mr. Epstein & Ms. Eck hath jealously hijacked the American Word 'SECULAR' (an Apple) and added (+) the American word 'HUMANiST' (orange) and thus Satanically "hiding" his/their "BUDDHiSM" & "TRANSCEDENTAL MOVEMENT" conspiracy in America & Elswhere!

Remember: SECULARiSM is the Religion of Everything , before the Science of Everything, and Zero, Nothing HUMANiST-ic About "IT"!

Preapocalyptic Jealous Split Minded Psychotic, F O O L S!

PS: As told Ye, Ye [NEWS CORP. et al] are Being Suid! Soon After Labor Day!

Amazing () No Grace! Happy Every Day & Happy god hunting!

Originally Posted August 31, 2008 3:06 AM

Greg M. Epstein is a Buhhhist + Transcendentalist movement organizer, not Ju:

Schame, SCHAME discusting ScHAME on Harvards so called Rabbi Epstein, et al, the judeo-Ju-boy, playing the Devils "Secular + Huminista advocate card.

Hello {world}:

Harvards Mr. Epstein & Ms. Eck hath jealously hijacked the American Word 'SECULAR' (an Apple) and added (+) the American word 'HUMANiST' (orange) and thus Satanically "hiding" his/their "BUDDHiSM" & "TRANSCEDENTAL MOVEMENT" conspiracy in America & Elswhere!

Remember: SECULARiSM is the Religion of Everything , before the Science of Everything, and Zero, Nothing HUMANiST-ic About "IT"!

Preapocalyptic Jealous Split Minded Psychotic, F O O L S!

PS: As told Ye, Ye [NEWS CORP. et al] are Being Suid! Soon After Labor Day!

Amazing () No Grace! Happy Every Day & Happy god hunting!

Originally Posted August 31, 2008 3:06 AM

Schame, SCHAME discusting ScHAME on Harvards so called Rabbi Epstein, et al, the judeo-Ju-boy, playing the Devils "Singular + Huminista advocate card.

Hello {world}:

Harvards Mr. Epstein & Ms. Eck hath jealously hijacked the American Word 'SECULAR' (an Apple) and added (+) the American word 'HUMANiST' (orange) and thus Satanically "hiding" his/their "BUDDHiSM" & "TRANSCEDENTAL MOVEMENT" conspiracy in America & Elswhere!

Remember: SECULARiSM is the Religion of Everything , before the Science of Everything, and Zero, Nothing HUMANiST-ic About "IT"!

Preapocalyptic Jealous Split Minded Psychotic, F O O L S!

PS: Ye are Being Suid! After Labor Day!

Amazing () No Grace! Happy Every Day & Happy god hunting!

So glad to see the words of a fellow Humanist once again sufficiently respected to reach the press.
Thank you for speaking out on behalf of us all.

Your opinion piece, Chaplain Epstein, is as spiritually moving as,I imagine from your acount, Rick Warren's book " The Purpose-driven Life" must be. Except ...

Except that, just like the blemish you point out about Mr. Warren's erroneous assumption that this higher purpose must be Christianity, your blemish is that you forgot about humility of those humanists/agnostics who, when they contemplate the sacred, stress the KNOWN UNKNOWNS and the UNKNOWABLE.

Thus, moving as Rick Warren's book might be and inspiring as your opinion piece no doubt is, I would recommend that those who are interested read, or at least browse through, Carl Sagan's "Varieties of Scientific Experience" and Stuart Kauffman's "Reinventing the Sacred".

I suppose, being a humanist or Atheist is all about being neutral or self-centered and ignore this world. Once in a while someone like Richard Dawkins would come onto the scene, make a lot of noise and write a best seller. Actually lots of- if not most of- writers are humanists and Atheists. But that's about it.

Sometimes I think I am (or might become) a humanist too but then I find myself impossible to engage with the world or be concerned about the existence of evil. Secular people and humanists do not have united aims nor any desire to have centralized aims, though their number (especially in the Western World is HUGE). I can think of organized Pagans and Unitarian Universalists. They gladly live on the self-indulgent margins. What do they ever do?

Please note that I am only wondering and critiquing, not judging or condemning.

http://emberglow.wordpress.com

Being a declared atheist it is important to me to know there are other atheist speaking up out there.

I wish we could find so eloquent Humanists in Canada. Americans should be proud to have Mr Epstein: he makes true equality of non-believers something of a goal actually achievable, perhaps before I die. None too soon.

Scott: "I thought you were "tolerant"??? Why not tolerant of McCain and his beliefs?"

It seems perfectly clear to me that tolerance does not extend to intolerance. To be tolerant is to oppose intolerance, and for very specific reasons involving civil human relations. To be intolerant is to be uncivilized, in the world today.

"Don't Exclude Humanists, Atheists"

This will not be possible because of the political necessity to pander to Christians in the US. Christians, especially Catholics, simply do not recognize as rational any other belief system, and they still have the numbers in the US to dictate religious belief. Many Christians have the ability of tolerance, also built into the US creed, but that doesn't mean they have to do anything to temper their own beliefs when action is required. Unless Christianity, or Judaism or Islam as the case may be, changes, other belief systems will be irrelevant. For this to change requires a change in the understanding of religion in general. Not going to happen in my lifetime.

Well, GoL-leeeeeee "B-GONE!"

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

HALLALUYA! Praise "i" + "E{CL{A}T" = LiFE/Photons Awarenes! Never Off!

Amazing: them folk superstupidstitiously, like espeealladoeshes... believe in the BUSH's that talk & believe in 'Biblical water' instead of Apocalyptic 'H2O" awareness! Same goes for believing their biblical 'Light' [man made] storys instead of feeling the genuine-Hol{i} "Photon" story [innate]!

Note: So the "NiCOLAiTAN(s), walketh on holy 'water' but WE HUE{MATES} are carbon-based Photon essence aware!

Hence the Battle(s) on Holy Cosmic , NEBULA-BUiLT, Space-Ship Earth(s) between THEY, aka the PRE-APOCALTiC Nation & WE the APOCALYPPTiC Nationals of EARTH; O.U.R. Natural inheretence! Something worth Fighting for!!!!

Note: If Majority population becomesQUEER-NATiONALS, then HUE{MATES} will be extinct!

Their-WAY? or O.U.R. Way? That is the Question!

Paid for by the American EC{LAT}-i-ON interfaith-Nation,.

Is there any truth at all to the lies learned by graduate doctors of divinity or is it just training to be con men authenticated by Harvard University.

Jim Roberts, Jr. - if you'd get your nose out of the bible for a minute, and actually read a history book, why you might find that the Founders did everything they could to keep politics and religion separated - and many of the Founders were Deists - as in non-trinitarian.

Any reference they made to God or a Creator would be nominal, since they believed that God remained aloof from the affairs of men - nor was Jesus any kind of divinity in the Deist view.

These famous Founders (Franklin and Jefferson come to mind) were deeply influenced by the Age of the Enlightenment, the era during which science finally came of age - see Descartes, Voltaire, et al. The Deists believed in a clockwork universe that was governed by mechanical (Newtonian) laws and where God had little or nothing to do with it.

The affairs of men were of no particular interest to the God of the Deists - but they did recognize the dangers that lurked when civil and governmental affairs became infused with the mania of religion - the real spirit & wisdom of the Constitution can be read in this simple but profound (and recently abused) concept:

"SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE"

Now and forever ------ amen.

Jim Roberts, please do us and yourself a favor and read some history books (purchased from a real book store, not a Christian propaganda outlet). This country was absolutely NOT founded to be a Christian nation. In fact, that's what they came here to escape! A majority of the founding fathers were Deists who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, and we were founded as a secular nation in order to provide both religious freedom and protection against the religious bloodshed that had stained Europe for hundreds of years. The arrogance, ignorance, and bigotry of you Christian nationalists would make the founders weep.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison

Shayna Arnold, and Jim Jones Jr.,

So well said, my children. You are like true lambs unto me. Revelation is about to begin. Please, I beg of you, my children, for many plagues are about to fall upon the devil's tools in your nation, please seek for shelter in a bomb shed deep underground until after November. I will stage my return to save the world from its wicked deeds.

Also, could someone register me for a shotgun. I don't have the proper paperwork here in heaven and I'm going to need one when I return to Earth. I want to make sure my second coming is unforgettable. Lock and load and hallelujah!

VOTE For: innate "SiNGULARiTY" Of ReLiGiON() in U.S.A. & elsewhere Never via "PLURALiTY" of man-made imported RELiGiON(s) in America!

Goodbye jealous Evil "HUMAnIST's" [Zero SECULAR] like ye proud Judeo Mr. gods-chosen-people , G.M.Epstein & idiot(s)!

Humanism is indeed the answer to save this world from Islamic terrorism, Christian, Hindu fundamentalism.

"In a recent news broadcast, Barack Obama made this statement with pride, 'We are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . .." To think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--then to have this man say with pride that we are no longer that. How far has this nation come from what our founding fathers intended it to be!"

-----------------------

How right you are! The fact is, this is a Christian nation, this has always has been a Christian nation, and God-willing, this always will be a Christian nation! This is not a buddhist nation, a muslim nation, or a pagan nation (all false religions). This nation was founded for the GLORY of the Lord Jesus Christ and him alone. It's true that our Christian nature was not, unfortunately, enshrined in the Constitution at its inception. This of course, was because the founders believed that this fact would always be obvious to the public! In recent times however, this has lead many people to believe in the myth of Church-State separation and secularism.

We see the results today, with different groups (notable among them the DemocRAT party, muslims, atheists, liberals do-gooders, whiny college students, rock stars, gays, etc.) trying to destroy God's America with liberalism, pacifism, socialism, secularism, evolutionism ("goo to you by way of the zoo" theory), gun control, feminism, the gay agenda, the "sex-positive" ("it's all OK as long as no one gets hurt") agenda, multiculturalism, relativism, Islamic terrorism, anti-Zionism, open borders, and above all, "tolerance".

Think about it. Look how we've slid from the Ozzie and Harriet 1950's to the sick, perverted, morally vapid 21st century. In the 1950's there'd be no talk of homosexual marriage, or even of homosexuals whatsoever. Back in my father's day you could understand people in the stores without knowing a foreign language. Back in my grandfather's day you'd get beat up for disrespecting the American flag or Jesus.

What Satan couldn't achieve through Communism in the U.S.S.R. he's using "modernism" to accomplish in the U.S.A. Beware, America. God will doom you soon if you continue down this road.

"How long is the Beast allowed to have authority in Revelations? "

Revelations Chapter 13 tells us that it is 42 months...

... Almost a four-year term of a Presidency...

According to The Book of Revelations the anti-Christ is:

"...a man, in his 40's, of MUSLIM descent, who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal....the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, he will destroy everything..."

Do we recognize this description?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Even if you don't believe in the Bible or it's teachings, how can we ignore the fact that this man has such close ties to the Muslim faith and it's beliefs?
And that the Pastor from his church preached hate against America?--No matter how much he may denounce him now, this was his spiritual leader for many years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In a recent news broadcast, Barack Obama made this statement with pride, 'We are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . .." To think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--then to have this man say with pride that we are no longer that.

How far has this nation come from what our founding fathers intended it to be!

Timely and compassionate post by Mr. Epstein! I couldn't agree more.

We new atheists are letting others know of our evangel for reason and truth over faith, the we just say so of credulity.I spread the evangel of naturalism and humanist on the internet the world over.[Google either name.]
Rpbet Price's "The Reason-Driven Life" urges others honor responsability unlike Warren's, which urges others to hide theirs behind God. This Sally Field life, human love and our own purposes ever so suffice; as Ellis Albert would maintain those who bray for a future state, divine love and purpose for us are like brats.
I objurate all superstitions- the supernatural and the paranormal [ Paul Kurtz's '"The Transcendent Temptation"]
Fr.Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalis. Logic is the bane of theists.

We humanists should make oursleves more known in this country. We new atheists are doing so. I spread the evangel of naturalism the world over.
Robert Price's "The Reason -Driven Life" makes sense whereas Warren's wants people to be sheep.

(does that imply the Bible is fiction?).

Of course it does, but that fact is not in dout.

Mr. Epstein,

First please let me commit the sin of reposting my comment that I just posted on Rev. John Bryson Chane's page, as it addresses most of the issues you've raised.

''Reverend,

It is interesting to see moderates like you blogging on Washington Post whereas all we hear outside of the United States is Pat Robertson and his version of religion and politics.

Despite intellectual and liberal/ moderate Christians like yourself and your other Episcopalian brethren such as John Shelby Spong and Gene Robinson, most Americans will remain conservative Christians and only conservative churches will grow or the ones with folks like Joel Osteen, Robert Schuler, T.D. Jakes, Rick Warren etc.

And despite separation of church and state all presidential candidates from Mitt Romney to Barack Obama will have to say in public, ''I believe in Jesus.'' or more histrionic and telegenic version of Mr. Romney, ''I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.''

Regards,

Rajiv Thind (Christchurch, New Zealand)''

I am keen observer of religion/ faith and our place in the world. I think this world is strongly polarized. Barack Obama or John McCain (who calls himself a Baptist now) got no chance of winning a term in White House as humanist, Atheist etc. Being a Catholic is the best that a Presidential candidate has managed in America, as far as I know or remember.

I notice that so many Jews (I gather your last name makes you a person of Jewish ancestry) become Atheists and humanists if they are not religious Jews. It is an easy option for a liberal Jewish person in a Western country. But any Jewish person- even in a Western country- would probably draw fire and anger from his Jewish family, friends and relatives if he or she were to convert to Christianity or Islam. Even when we are not religious, religion always rules our life.

I'm doing short blog posts on religions under title Belief System. They record my personal impressions of faith systems. So far I've covered or touched upon Seventh Day Adventist, Catholicism and Christian Science. You or readers on this blog might be interested. Here is link to my blog:

http://emberglow.wordpress.com

Shalom and Peace,
Rajiv.

Most Americans are stupid. They have strong "religious" indoctrination from their childhood that the refuse to accept reason and commonsense. They would rather believe in a fictional character "God" created by some deluded zombie , who may call himself a 'prpphet', son of God, or a Patriarch or Saint,etc. These are scums of Society who live off others hard labour, leading a life of the rich without having worked for it excepting misleading people and putting "the fear of God" in the gullble! All our problems stem from 'religion' , wars are fought, massacres take place ,death ,destruction and human misery are the main contributions of 'religion' ,especially the monotheistic , proselytsing creeds of Islam and Christianity!

[URL=http://amikwmqx.com]vkvvbilh[/URL] nvuefbwv http://htzjesys.com cwbtruxg nwnqxsrl uzpbjdsx

I agree. This nation was founded as much if not more on Deism that Christianity. At the time of the American Revolution only about fifteen percent of the citizens were "churched". Were it not for Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson the American Revolution would never have been fought, let alone won. They were all Deists. A good look at the Declaration of Independence will find that our rights are self evident, not Bible evident. No Bible passages are quoted. No reference to Divine Revelation is mentioned. The revolution was as much about the separation of the two powers of the church and state as anything else. When the church was in the minority it cooperated with Deists and others to insure the rights and safeguards of "we the people". Now that they have swelled in numbers, due to underhanded recruiting methods, they want to have more power than the framers intended by inserting their beliefs into more and more of the political, state, realm. Let them show their decency, their confidence in their beliefs by including Humanists into the same rarefied air. I won't hold my breath.

Francis: I don't know what world you're living in but the battle for atheists is far from over. Humanism will not take hold until people let go of their religious beliefs. Otherwise, the status quo will persist. Does that mean that there are no ethical religionists? Of course not. But there are no ethical religions. Ethical does not include falsehoods, manipulations, stipulated fundraising, discrimination, pederasty, places like hell, being reincarnated or delusional behavior. Humanism will only take root when people are in service to each other rather than some deity. You certainly have the right to be a quiet, contented atheist/humanist, but I need to change a few minds so that someday there might be a truly civilized society.

Well put, Greg. This nation truly has many different colors of faith (as well as no faith at all), and even though Obama seems to be playing to the religious a bit more every time I see him speak, we must not forget a quote of his taken from an interview before his popularity as a would-be President took full force:

"Evolution is more grounded in my experience than angels."

"Meaning you did not make this distinction."

I think it's on *you* to make that distinction.

Go house.

Distinguish yourself.

Is someone stopping you?

QUOTE FROM ARTICLE: "On Faith" has asked us panelists to advise the McCain and Obama campaigns on what role religion ought to play in U.S. politics. I have no basis for believing the McCain campaign would be interested in my opinions, so you'll forgive me if I don't waste your time with advice for the Republicans."

While it is true that most anti-humanists -- ie fundamentalists are Republican, it is not true that ALL Republicans are fundamentalists.

Republicans are comprised of both (i) fiscal conservatives (those who want low taxes and don't care about much else) and (ii) social conservatives (don't care about taxes, but want their social religious views forced on the public.)

It is the social conservatives who are fundamentalists -- ie are anti-humanists.

Meaning you did not make this distinction.

True, the fiscal conservatives often like to stay mum about atheists, to not get their social conservative partners upset.

But isn't this what the Democrats are essentially doing right now -- not upsetting part of THEIR coalition, so they don't run to the republicans?

Rabbi Epstein's comments are brilliant!. I hope Obama will accept them despite the pressure from traditional religion. I shall disseminate Rabbi Epstein's message to all my friends of other faiths.
I'm thrilled that he will be participating at Adat Chaverim's High Holiday services. Let's all work for Humanist participation in the inauguration!

Speaking of horse "squeeze", here is your post and what is wrong with it, Peter S. (though your name is certainly fitting):

Peter S.:

QUOTE FROM ARTICLE: "On Faith" has asked us panelists to advise the McCain and Obama campaigns on what role religion ought to play in U.S. politics. I have no basis for believing the McCain campaign would be interested in my opinions, so you'll forgive me if I don't waste your time with advice for the Republicans."

Greg, you have just outed yourself as a hater-bomb throwing liberal.

Scott: You say Greg is a hater because simply because he points out that he isn't welcome in certain places? Because he knows that one of the parties not only doesn't value him and his opinion but is actively opposed to his very existence and opinions? I think he is merely pointing out the facts: It is the Republicans and the religious right who are haters and bomb throwers.

I thought you were "tolerant"??? Why not tolerant of McCain and his beliefs? You make me sick and should be ashamed of your self.

Scott: What did he say that was intolerant? Nothing. He didn't even criticize them much less try to do anything intolerant. Again, all he pointed out was that he knew he was not welcome in the Republican camp. That's not intolerance; that is just an accurate observation of others' intolerance. (Tell me, Peter, do you own a dictionary? If so, please look up the word "intolerance" and memorize the definition because you apparently have no idea what it means. While you are at it, google "psychological projection" because you are a classic case of someone projecting his own intolerance on his intended victim.)

Do you go into a hypnosis chamber each morning to renew your resolve to be the most smug God hater on the planet?

Scott: Unlike religious people, we atheists don't have to have regular group reinforcement sessions to keep our critical thinking abilities at bay. Nor do we need any other kind of reinforcement. All that is required is a bit of honesty, objectivity, and intelligence to see that "the invisible magic man in the sky" theory is clearly a primitive myth. Nor do we hate god. We can't hate what we do not think exists. And, Greg is hardly very smug compared to other nonbelievers, which leads me to conclude that this is your standard diatribe that you throw at all nonbelievers without paying attention to anything they say.

2Late says:

"Don't we (atheists) have an obligation to share knowledge about the myths and inconsistencies in the bible or particularly the inconsistencies in the descriptions of this god character?"
...................................

Why?

Who says "the" Bible matters? Do you intend to give equal attention to the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon and Dianetics? Or do you concede - without cause - to the fundies their pretense that only one of the world's many bibles is "the" Bible?

Who cares about "this god character"? Which "god character" do you mean? Krishna? Paul Tillich's "Ground of Being"? Pat Robertson's? Martin Marty's? John Shelby Spong's? Or are you going to give unwarranted validation to the ignorant fundies by accepting THEIR quaint Victorian-era children's version of "God" as "the" God?

Too often, atheists today are determined to fight a battle long since over, like Japanese soldiers in caves years after WW2 has ended. They could avoid blunders by studying some theology. If they did so, they would be ahead of the fundies usually too dumb to do so. But by engaging in a dispute on the fundies' terms, as if unaware of the mainstream of Christianity, such atheists reinforce the fundies' pretense to speak for Christianity.

Greg Epstein deserves honor for transcending the shallow anti-religious posture of many atheists. He seems to be a promoter of Humanism, as the founders of Humanism intended: not a denial of God but the cultivation of ethics without reference to gods, on the solid ground of observable human experience.

A humanist chaplain-brilliant! I think I've found my next career. Would you mind telling us a little bit about your educational background and qualifications, and what you do at Harvard, or direct me to a web site with this information? There is a big gap for secular humanist americans when it comes to sharing joy, tragedies, new babies, etc.

Following on the heels of this amazing Democratic Convention, your article adds to my optimism about the future of America. Religion has been the root of so many wars and remains the wedge between so many Americans that I often despair that things will change in my lifetime. But, at age 77, I now dare to hope that one day someone like Greg M. Epstein might even be allowed to deliver the "opening words" at the convention. That's how audacious my hope is.

I wish you had put yourself forward as a god-free representative for the Dems' interfaith pageant, Greg. And I certainly wish they had taken you up on the offer.

I'm not as optimistic as you about mixing religion and politics, given history both recent and not. Can the wheat of faith ("...insisting life and society are at their best when we overcome selfishness and solipsism, learning to live for a purpose higher than ourselves...") truly be separated from the chaff ("...a cheap euphemism for belief in God, miracles, and the supernatural as opposed to reason, empirical evidence, and this-worldly ethics...")?

The whole fraudulent game of religion is to insist that they can't be separated. (And--whenever the philosophical going gets tough--to ditch the wheat and cling to the chaff with a death grip, it would seem.)

Ecumenicism may indeed lead to better understanding in the long run, but like I said, I'm not as optimistic as you. In the short term, it seems to have exacerbated anti-atheist sentiment, since godbelief is one of the few things most of the various religions have in common and so-called "people of faith" have to define themselves somehow against the rest of us.

In any case, I applaud your effort and admire the way you highlight both what humanists do and do not believe in.

Magical, invisible friends are for small children and intellectual weaklings.
Period.
To Peter S:
Are you so pathetically simple-minded as to believe that those of us who do not believe in Santa Claus, and do not think that adults should believe in Santa Claus, actually hate Santa Claus?
Of course you are; you're a conservative.

I think it’s a mistake not to direct a message like this to Republicans as well as Democrats. It’s clear that, while he panders to the Christian right, John McCain is, himself, uncomfortable talking about religion and may not be as deeply personally committed to Christianity as he claims to be. Also, George W. Bush, for all his religious talk and his clearly deep personal faith, has sometimes included “those who have no faith” when mentioning various religious views that a good person can have – unlike his father who famously said that an atheist can’t be a good American.

"Greg, you have just outed yourself as a hater-bomb throwing liberal. I thought you were "tolerant"??? Why not tolerant of McCain and his beliefs? You make me sick and should be ashamed of your self."

*setting the wayback machine to a few months ago when Evangelicals claimed McCain was insufficiently-Evangelical and not a candidate Christians could support... until he changed some of his 'maverick' positions and started pandering to the Religious Right...

Now he has 'beliefs?'

How easy you make it, this belief of yours, Peter. Or.... is it something else?

Peter S. - thanks for the expected rant from the right. There are good reasons that we have the divisiveness so evident in our country today, and you provide a perfect example of at least one of those reasons.

No self-respecting liberal-minded humanist (republican humanists are quite hard to find)
would expect anything other than what you have offered here as your 'opinion'. So vote for McCain and see if humanists and atheists give a damn. We wouldn't expect anything different.

As for God - who knows anything about God? Try leaving religion out of politics for a change. It will do us all a world of good.

Thoughtful and articulate, Greg. Well done.

Excellent article. What a shame that Obama does not recognize his mother's humanist beliefs as worthy of honor. But, I guess we will have to be satisfied with his nomination at this point.

Great article. I've blogged about it at http://revcyn.blogspot.com. Thank you for writing this!

@ 2LATE4GOD: But for most people, religion is about culture, not what is true. It doesn't matter that there is no evidence for your religious truth-claims... inherited culture is very powerful and can't be dismissed through logical arguments. The best approach is to gradually secularize, shifting the focus to "How do we solve the problems we face?" (Humanism), and leaving culture to deal with "How do we respect the god(s) of our ancestors?" (religion). A lot of Jewish sects have made this transition.

I really wish that the Dems had included a humanist in the "interfaith" event. There is DEFINITELY a component of faith to humanism, since, based on the evidence, one could just as easily become a nihilist.

"I have no basis for believing the McCain campaign would be interested in my opinions, so you'll forgive me if I don't waste your time with advice for the Republicans."

Hey Peter, this means he isn't going to bother trying to talk to people who won't listen to him.

People like you. You completely missed the point of what he said.

And you know what else? You have to believe in a god to hate it. How is it that these kinds of things so easily escape your notice?

The republicans already own you and your kind, nobody who isn't one of you has any reason to bother trying to be reasonable with. It seems now the democrats are trying to scrape off the more reasonable believers who have become disgusted with the hypocrisy of the republicans as regards their faith.

Apparently you have placed as much faith in your political party as you have your gods. Don't worry, nobody is going to try to talk you out of it. What's the point, I mean who wants someone who feels as you on their side?

This is a great post. I like the inclusion of religionists - as long as it is all-inclusive. To me, Secularism does not deny or reject religious individuals, but rather it denies any religious authority (supernatural beings or holy scriptures) as the bases for any policy or action. It isn't the religious person which is to be excluded, but rather the religious authority. It is the establishment of society's values that are shared by religious and non-religious. So an Interfaith assembly which includes many religions and many non-religious is a great idea.

Greg Epstein continues to communicate the humanist alternative in an amiable and inclusive manner. I greatly appreciate his perspective.

Greg Epstein: why would we respect people's religious views when we know they are fallacious? We curtail a child's belief in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy by the age of 8 or 9. Certainly we would correct any reasonable person who still thought the world was flat. We generally dismiss the idea of UFOs because proof is lacking. A lawyer would not go into court and say his/her client was innocent because of faith in the client. Religion is indoctrinated in most at a very early age; it is rarely a rational choice based on serious thought or study. Religions have caused innumerable problems for people including women, gay people, black people, people who enjoy sex, etc. Don't we (atheists) have an obligation to share knowledge about the myths and inconsistentcies in the bible or particularly the inconsistencies in the descriptions of this god character? Is it wrong to ask for proof of a god from the believers? If we do nothing then the craziness of religious beliefs will persist and the negative influence on politics and culture will continue. Freedom of religion must be strictly a private matter, not a license to perpetuate lies and nonsense.

Excellent essay. I agree that both the nonreligious and religious left need to unite and promote secularism for the benefit of both groups. I do however believe that the 16% that are unaffiliated with any religion of our population need to demand much more from our candidates by asking them how they will consider our large group when carrying out their policies. I have yet to hear anyone ask them how they will respect the first amendment establishment clause when considering abortion and same sex marriage.

QUOTE FROM ARTICLE: "On Faith" has asked us panelists to advise the McCain and Obama campaigns on what role religion ought to play in U.S. politics. I have no basis for believing the McCain campaign would be interested in my opinions, so you'll forgive me if I don't waste your time with advice for the Republicans."

Greg, you have just outed yourself as a hater-bomb throwing liberal. I thought you were "tolerant"??? Why not tolerant of McCain and his beliefs? You make me sick and should be ashamed of your self.

Do you go into a hypnosis chamber each morning to renew your resolve to be the most smug God hater on the planet?

This is a bunch of liberal horse-squeeze.

Religions differ radically from each other in their basic beliefs on God and the meaning of life and what comes after death. These beliefs govern to some extent the follower's actions in this life. Some of these religions are subversive, violent, controlling, and militant. This is not acceptable.

If you want to be all-inclusive (which I think is a mistake) there should be at least some standards held by all in order to participate or the whole concept will break down. IE: denounce violence, freedom of speech, gender equality, no bondage/slavery, etc.