Secularism's Religious Allies

My disagreement with the notion of allowing Sharia law has less to do with religion and more to do with ethics and decency. Isn't this the law system that says adultry is punishable by death? That "infidels" (read that non-Muslims) are very 2nd-class citizens? That cutting a thief's arm off is required by law? The West really needs to get smart about what "tolerance" to Sharia law will mean.

The argument between theists and atheists cannot be resolved. Faith has no reason, and reason (science) has no faith. With this difference in premises. the debate cannot possibly reach any resolution. Let us agree to disagree and, also, remember that fixed, unshakable beliefs are the hallmark of schizophrenia.

As I pointed out in a letter published in Newsweek on March 10 praising Lisa Miller's column, "Greg Epstein is right in preferring the positive 'humanist' to the empty and negative 'atheist' or 'nonbeliever'." Those who'd rather promote atheism over humanism only make it more difficult for all of us of all persuasions to work together to defend our constitutional wall of separation between churvh and state.
Edd Doerr, president, Americans for Religious Liberty and past president, American Humanist Association.

As I pointed out in a letter published in Newsweek on March 10 praising Lisa Miller's column, "Greg Epstein is right in preferring the positive 'humanist' to the empty and negative 'atheist' or 'nonbeliever'." Those who'd rather promote atheism over humanism only make it more difficult for all of us of all persuasions to work together to defend our constitutional wall of separation between churvh and state.
Edd Doerr, president, Americans for Religious Liberty and past president, American Humanist Association.

How refreshig, how simple, hoe right.When and why have we veered so far into religion as so much a art of our political system.
Why are we asked, by seemingly intelligent human beings "How xan yu be good, if you don't believe in heaven and hell?" Or othr questions similar to that one.

I am frankly tired of the steady stream of villification which Bill Reilly and others aim at me and other secular humanists & freethinkers. Kudos to Mr. Epstein, who states the case for the separation of Church and State, and the ability of people to have moral beliefs and take moral action without a belief in God. Let's here more from freethinkers! There are many out there, and the strident voices of smug right wing Christians need to be balanced out in the Media!

Hear, hear,Gregg!!!
I wish your comments could be e-mailed to Bill O'Reilly and Shawn Hannady. I listen to them whenever I'm driving and I resent the inference that only god-fearing Christians are worthy of being considered in any meaningful way.

I believe in God with all my heart. That said, I can subscribe to a secular government that is indifferent towards either religion, or lack of it. Your first definition I can agree with. Your second, I can't. In this government, there is a free exercise of religion (or freedom to not practice religion). Both the theist and the atheist are protected in their rights (at least that is the ideal we are seeking). Being free from atheistic, philosophical or religious imposition, I am free to submit myself to be governed morally by the religion or philosophy of my choice.

"Secularist" has come to mean a to-be-hated nonreligious person or infidel in the mindspeak of Cheney's Jesuslandia.

Neochristians use it to rally their mindless masses around a common enemy du jour in their "war against the secularists."

It's now another hate-word in the Rovian vocabulary of the Dobsons, Robertsons, Haggards, Craigs, Vitters, Huckabees et.al. who would "take this nation back for Christ" by shoving their perverted Leviticus cherry-picking version of the Bible down everyone else's throat.

Bgone, I read Paganplace's post three times and not once did I see a connection made between making abortions illegal and making "not copulating" illegal. Paganplace said that taken to an extreme, contraception that prevents implantation would be illegal. No mention of sex there -- just birth control. And that would include IUDs and the pill, the two methods within a woman's realm of control.

That is pure biopolitical control.

However, your suggestion that "Ministers should publish manuals on proper fornication to save the lives of the unborn and keep their flocks out of prison" is already a done deal. I assume you've read that part of the Bible, where God says "Be fruitful and multiply?" Sounds like a direct order to me.

And they don't call it the "missionary position" for nothing ;-)

Paganplace:

I like your ability to work abortion all the way back to a failure to copulate, (and go to jail for murder). That's good, real good. Now go the other way.

If we can legally kill by not fornicating then it must be legal to kill fully grown people too. That too can be put in a progression.

1. OK to abort fetus.
2. OK to kill baby.
3. OK to kill adolescent.
4. OK to kill adults.
5. OK to kill old people.
6. OK to beat on corpses.

Those who think abortion is a sin shouldn't do it. However, they should be informed that a failure to fornicate is murder and be prosecuted. Ministers should publish manuals on proper fornication to save the lives of the unborn and keep their flocks out of prison.

Those who vote to end legal abortion will be disappointed and get an abortion for an administration as the booby prize. Works.

You're well on your way to writing the next sacred scripture. I'm way too busy with other things to help.

I think Reverend Spitz there inadvertently points out one of the real problems with injecting religious authorities into the legal system: on the abortion issue, he thinks it's just plain common sense to make the leap from 'aborting a fetus is murder' to 'Abortion is murder,' and from there 'Not bringing a fertilized egg to term is murder,' to 'Preventing accidental fertilization is murder,' to 'Any contraception is murder,'

...And these are religious beliefs, namely the religious belief that human life (and rights as such) begins at conception, ...in essence, that a human soul is *created* at conception, which beliefs they try to enforce on people who may have other views, or otherwise need to make their own choices about where the lesser harm lies.

No one *likes* abortion, particularly late-term, but in a secular government, this view is one that should not be pursued through absolutist and punitive edicts, no matter how-well *concealed* in secularist terms... Likewise, the government should not be enforcing religious authorities with the force of government power.

It undermines the very secularism that gives these religions the freedom to teach and believe as they choose in the first place.

Mr. Epstein - in my quest for upbeat, descriptive terms for both believers and non-believers, I’ve generated the terms "Super-Pros” and "Super-Frees"

Super-Pros believe in a supernatural god.

Super-Frees are free of belief in a supernatural god.

Both are positive terms that point out the major difference between the two groups – attitude toward the existence of the supernatural.

The terms could be shortened to "Pros" and "Frees."

Regarding the term “secularist,” I figure that includes Frees by default, and any Pros who favor secular government (which I think and hope is the largest segment of Pros). Other subsets of Pros would be those who favor a theocracy (or at least more religion in Government) and those who do not have an opinion on the subject on religion in Government.

What do you think?

But Chaplain, Devil just loves the secular society. Small wonder, His churches thrive there. But then Devil also loves chaos. Looks like Devil wins again.

Absolutely! http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul kinda says it all doesn't it? Moses made a deal with the biggest devil of them all, Lucifer and beat the murder rap.

What happens to people who faith Devil, call Him God? Don't you expect they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth, be hated and despised, forbidden to join organizations, declared to not be citizens of the country of their birth, subjected to inquisitions and even subjects of genocide? Maybe it would be a good idea to revisit the source of all three great faiths and make a determination about just which supernatural being that was in the famous burning bush. Don't you think?

Shouldn't we do the same thing for Muslims? Which supernatural being was that Muhammad met in a cave and got the straight facts about how all must live their lives? Did I mention how Devil just loves chaos? Is that so or does God simply tolerate it?

What we see about us is the consequence of calling Devil God.

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Dear Chaplain Epstein

It is always refreshing to hear from an humanist atheist who understands fully that believers and atheists can work meaningfully together concerning all issues of the human condition. If common human good is our goal it should be no problem to come at it from different angles, each side contributing to the common cause, serving the other by offering different perspectives in achieving that common goal. We are interdependent, atheists and believers, we share the same planet and its resources, and we wish ourselves and our children the same happiness. We can either waste precious time crossing swords about ideas or get down to the specifics of an action plan that is beneficial to all.

Re Sharia Law: it is most encouraging that the vast majority of Muslims living in the West prefer to live in a secular democracy enjoying the freedoms that they would be robbed of if they were to have Sharia imposed on every aspect of their lives. For those who insist that Sharia Law is the best form of government there is, they should be encouraged to migrate to countries which have a Muslim majority and where Sharia Law already determines every aspect of a Muslim's life.

I look forward to your upcoming book. Best wishes for its success in reaching the widest readership possible not only among atheists but also among believers!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Mr. Epstein,

Please clarify for us your understanding of Humanism. I know what a human bean is, but...

The simple truth. There are no gods.

Abortion should be illegal because abortion is the murder of a human baby. It is not that God condemns it. That is an idiotic remark. God condemns stealing, so should stealing be legal because God condemns it? This only proves that those who reject Jesus Christ have lost their minds.

Abortion should be illegal because abortion is the murder of a human baby. It is not that God condemns it. That is an idiotic remark. God condemns stealing, so should stealing be legal because God condemns it? This only proves that those who reject Jesus Christ have lost their minds.