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Picture this ... man wakes up one morning walks down to the town center and doesn't like what he sees. Feels that he could make things better if only he was in control. Goes home an angry man. Feels jealous of others and does not like women that much because he is weak and always gives in to their demands or advances. Wakes up the next day and creates god. Starts to hear voices (or so he says) and the voices are those of angels or gods. Creates quite a stir in town and some people actually start to listen to him. Presto!! Religion is here. Now he wants control over everything and step by step builds up a whole faith that discriminates against some and helps others who follow. Destroys peoples lives with the help of his followers and forces others to adhere to his new found beliefs. That could only happen in the past.

These days, angry man wakes up goes to town and does one of these ... takes a gun and goes on a spree killing those who have 'wronged him' ... or ... goes to town and blows himself up killing those who have wronged him / crossed his god ... says he is hearing the voice of god and wakes up the next day in a mental asylum.

You see my point is, one could only hear these voices a thousand or so years ago and get away with it. Perhaps a fit would convince some that he was in some sort of godly grip. Who knows? These days you are considered crazy if you say god spoke to you and you have a message for everyone to hear.

Another thing that irritates me are these people who go about their everyday lives trying to convice everybody to convert. I have lost count of the number of people that have tried to burden me with their 'faith'. Just because they led an empty life and found some 'god' to keep them company does not mean that I want the same thing! Just because they found 'love' which led to conversion does not mean that I want the same! Just because they were embraced by some community of really friendly and/or peaceful people does not mean that I could give a damn! Religion is for the weak who need someone to tell them what to do or how to live their lives. Which way to face or when to kneel! It really has no place in life today and the sooner people realise this, we can all live in peace. Because let's face it, religion, whatever it is, is the great divider. I'm sick of seeing people bending over backwards making excuses for various religions. I'm sick of switching on the tv to see some bearded wonder lecturing me on how bad I am or that really his people are peaceful only to retreat to the safety of his closed community. And I say closed communities because it is all I see these days. Where people of a certain faith will live in areas predominantly inhabited by their own and make sure no infidel infiltrates.

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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

Insane? Asylum? Torture? Feeding your child? What utter nonsense!

1. Setting your childish sarcasm aside, you see, you do need to be educated:

a. Mos·lem(mzlm, ms-)n.
Variant of Muslim.

b. American Moslem Foundation/House of Mercy Project

c. Muslim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe ordinary word in English is "Muslim", also spelled "Moslem", pronounced /'mʊs.lɪm/, also /'mʌz.ləm/. The word is pronounced /'mʊslɪm/ in Arabic. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

First of all, the message was for Espstein NOT you since as I mentioned I have no interest in cross-dialogue, second of all, not sure if you are a criminal or not, but you certainly proved my other two attributes!

I know Cameron. A rational point of view from Mr. Epstein indeed. I am one such hate-filled, illiterate, criminal Moslem (or is it Muslim? please educate me) afflicted with the cancerous sickness you spoke of. My friend Jihadist is afflicted too. We can't read what you are saying to us here and blinded by our faith. When and how are you going to put all of us in jail or an insane asylum? To be cured of our cancerous disease, or to be tortured for what we believe in? When you put us there, will you take care of all our children? To feed, clothe, put a roof over their heads, send them to school as the thinking, decent, moral, humanist person that you are?

At last! At last! A rational point of view. Thank you, Mr. Epstein.

The hypocrite, illiterate, hate-filled Christian Right on one side and the hate-filled, illiterate,criminal Moslems on the other side. I was going to say, an honest dialogue between the two is necessary but I was wrong. These two camps are a cancer to all decent, thinking, moral people. You can not reach them. Think of their children.

I encourage you to continue your present campaign so that all hear you and hopefully, their children will be immune to their parents' sickness.
Thank you again.

The faster humanity realizes that man created god and all religions are equally invalid as true descriptions regarding the origins of life the better off we will be. The myths, distortions, lies,contradictions, and highly immoral stories in the Bible and other religious "holy" books expose religion as a monumental fraud.We should not base our laws on ancient fictions spawned my man's ignorance and fear of death. Science, rationality, and the power of the human mind will be our salvation.

The faster humanity realizes that man created god and all religions are equally invalid as true descriptions regarding the origins of life the better off we will be. The myths, distortions, lies,contradictions, and highly immoral stories in the Bible and other religious "holy" books expose religion as a monumental fraud.We should not base our laws on ancient fictions spawned my man's ignorance and fear of death. Science, rationality, and the power of the human mind will be our salvation.

To
halozcel:

1. I agree with you that there is not a single free society among the contemporary Muslims in the Middle east.

2. Do you know that Allah means God in Arabic. All Christians in the Arabic world including in Jerusalam use the word, Allah for God.

3. I do not want give American history lessons. I do not know whether Halozcel is an American or not. Therefore let me state that original Europeans came to America to escape from Christian against Christian violence in Europe. America is great becuase our forefathers and mothers, who experienced violence from European Christianity, wrote into constitution, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

4. I disagree with you respectfully about creation of nations by God. God does not create nations. God gives only choices and suggestions to humans. Humans choose and create nations.

Mathew,

'Prophet(Founder of islam) struggle to establish a free society(!)'.
Could you please to write any 'free society islamic country'?

You say 'so-called islamic government'.No,you are wrong.They are not 'so-called islamic gov.',but They ARE 'pure blood' islamic government.Because,islam is cult of violence,islam is brainwashing and backwardness,nothing else.

'I thank God for creating America....',God also created Middle East,Pakistan,Iran,Africa and Asia.What is the difference between America and Middle East ? Very simple,the bloody hands of islam didnt touch America,and this why America improved too much and Middle East went to Stone Age.

Besides,muslims believe in Allah,not God.

The following article by T.O.Shanavas, the author of "Creation and/or Evolution An Islamic Perspective" from http://www.islamfortoday.com/shanavas01.htm
Freedom and Islam
By T. O. Shanavas, M. D., Vice President, Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.

FREEDOM AND ISLAM

Recently, I read an article, “Women in Islam” describing the liberation of women by Islam and Prophet (s). In reality women cannot travel alone to Hujj or visit Mecca (the safest place for any one), and women cannot drive a car in Saudi Arabia. It is not a secret that Muslims in general and Muslim women in particular in the world are the least free and least educated. So, I wonder: Oh Islam! You are a great theory but no practical value, unless you live in the West.

After all, only one thing matters in Islam. Faith is a matter of exclusively personal and private experience. We embrace faith individually just as we confront our death individually. An Iranian Muslim philosopher, Souroush, correctly said it that we have communal actions and but not communal faiths. We can express faith in public but the core of the faith is mysteriously private. The preeminence of Islamic faith is for the hereafter where people are judged individually: "Everyone of them will come before Him all alone on the Day of Resurrection. Surely A-Rahman will show love for those who believe and do right." [19:95-96]. There is no Original Sin that transcends over the goodness of whole mankind in Islam. Therefore, the only things that matter on the Day of Judgment are actions at the individual level. Community actions are useless.

Similarly, the Qur’an states: “Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of you all. Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" (Koran 18: 29) “And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; thy task is only to exhort: thou cannot compel them to believe.” (Koran: 21-22). “O Prophet.!…Thy duty is not more than to deliver the message; and the reckoning is Ours.” (Koran 13:40). These verses teach that a roof made out safety and liberty is an absolute necessity to develop faith in the hearts. These verses demand Muslims to guarantee freedom and safety for all. Therefore, if governments, Imams, enforced Fatwas, demand any public or outward obedience and submission, such outward appearance is not faith. When law, power, force, and tyranny enforce religion, they are taking control of the body not the soul. Unfortunately, many Muslims want to make reign over body the most important tenet of Islam even though the Qur’an rejects their craving for power over body: “It is not your meat or blood that reach God: It is fealty of your heart that reaches Him” (22:37).

In Muslim-majority nations, people are forced to confess Islamic faith and behave in one voice in religion; but they forget that the rulers cannot fill the heart with genuine faith. I believe that faith chosen freely at the individual level without coercion and without forced conformity is the genuine faith. In a world where the hearts with freely chosen faith, not by forced compliance, pervade, the true religious spirit come alive to establish an ideal society by free choice of the people. This is proven by Muslim history in the first 6 centuries. Muslims helped Jews to create their Golden Age and liberate Christians from tyranny of Roman church. Muslims philosophy and science promoted the Enlightenment and Renaissance of the Europe. We also created the experimental science. In those days, we educated anyone who came our way without force-feeding our faith. Now we have governments that have taken control of our body claiming to send our “meat and blood” to God while Muslims have to beg from non-Muslim societies for their daily bread to keep their body alive.

Prophet Mohammed struggled to establish a free society. Similarly, Muslims must struggle hard peacefully to establish a free society where no totalitarian government, no Imams, no predominant group control us or decide for us. Everyone is equal. If any one wants to be a believer, let him/her be. If anyone wants to be an apostate let him/her be safe to live the life of an apostate. So-called Islamic government is myth created by power-hungry people to control Muslim mind and body. There was no such thing as Islamic government. Government is only a means to execute the will of people. The individual members of the government can have Islamic values and faith. Prophet Mohammed ruled as a democratically elected ruler following the invitation by the people of Medina. He never forced a decision upon his community even when he believed that majority decision on a particular secular matter was a mistake as happened in the case of the disaster of Uhud war. A minority including him wanted to fortify the Medina and fight the Meccan forces. But he agreed to go along with the wishes of the majority to fight the Koreish in the open instead of from fortified Medina even though the strategy of the majority was wrong in his opinion. So, Islam demands Democracy, not tyranny by ullamahs, kings, self-appointed presidents, and military generals.

The concept of so-called Islamic government is an oxymoron unless it means a government with Islamic values that the community has accepted, not by the opinion or fatawa of an Imam but by totally free discussion in a free press, without coercion and intimidation. Some of the so-called Islamic values that exist in contemporary Muslim society are the values of some Imams that had never grinded through and experienced a free press. The self-righteous terrorists, and oppressive governments among Muslims want to control the “meat and blood” with the aid of the values of Imams that were not debated in the free society with a free press. However, they neglect the soul that sustains the body. Let democracy rule our bodies with a free press and let the free choice build our faith. Let us get rid of from our thoughts the enforced forms of outward Islam that demand the conformity and control from our “meat and blood”

The verse 33:5 states: “There is no sin upon you for what mistakes you commit unintentionally, but there is sin what your hearts have intended.” Unintentional mistakes happen much less if mind is exposed to free press, public opinion, and dialogue with reason as guiding principle. A hadith states "God has not created any thing better than reason." So, any Muslims who oppose a free press and reasoning are committing a sin knowingly because he/she refuses to listen to the merit or demerit of opposing points of view. The Koreish of Mecca rejected Prophet Mohammed because they refused to listen to reasoning. Muslims must reject the Jahilliyah paradigm that pervades in our community and in our mind.

Let Imams and scholars issue fatwas freely without power to enforce over the community. Reject any conformity by force. Reject totalitarianism and kingdoms that want to rule our body. Let the heart and mind fly free to see what is out there. Democracy draws inspiration from the Qur’anic axiom that human being are free. The American constitution reflects it as it states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press.”

This is candidly stated in verse: “We sent down the Torah which contains guidance and light…Later, in the train of prophets We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which has been send down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light. …Unto to you [O Muhammad] this writ (Koran) and a way and a pattern of life, confirming what were revealed before…Unto everyone of you have We appointed a different law and way of life. And if God had so willed He could surely have you all made one single community professing one faith. But He wished to try you and test you. So try to excel in good deeds” (Koran: 5:44-48).

The existence of different kinds of faith and religion competing each other doing good work is the will of God. So, freedom without the enforcement of conformity in religious matters is Islamic. The so-called Islamic governments of the self-righteous violate Qur’anic principles and tyrannize people of all faith including Muslims. Islam will always remain a dream and an excellent theory with no practical value until faith rules the hearts and liberal democracy with a free press rules the bodies. Finally, I thank God for creating America where I do not fear about government taking control of my body and at same time my heart can fly freely to choose my faith.

"To some, this may seem like a series of oxymorons, one stranger or more offensive than the next."

It makes me tired when someone refers to a contradiction (or seeming contradiction) as an oxymoron. They are not the same thing. Dictionaries are everywhere.

Globo Mojo
Jesus and Buddha had the original visions on humanism, not Epstein. Both continue to inspire millions. Nothing new from Epstein and he started on specific definations, categories and qualifications disputed by many posters here. Brilliant proposition from him? Just an obvious one.

Such obsession with definitions and categories and qualifications! I don't need a book, or my community, or a dictionary, or a thousand years of tradition to define my universe. I can take sustenance and inspiration from each, but then I add my own thoughts and revelations to create my own universe! That is the spirit of humanism. Think creatively, and you will become your creation. Share your vision not as *truth*, but as inspiration. So Mr. Epstein has a brilliant proposition.

Unfortunately the problems of the middle-east are entirely political, and I sincerely believe that religious and cultural disputes are red herrings which serve to buttress the powerful and distract the populace. America is suffering from very much the same distraction. Solve the political crises of the middle-east and the suicide bombers will stop their carnage and go back to work building a great society for their families.

Muslims, like Christians and Jews, need to be liberated from their horrible religous traditions, traditions which only preach hatred and violence.

Golly, Mr. Epstein. Thousands of years of conflict, and here you had the answer all along! My goodness, what fools we've been! Oh, and please start breaking those pills in half!

capitalism and communism both derive the proper treatment of people from a strictly rational process and both systems of ethics have had truly awful results for millions. That is humanism at work.

since when do non-religious people have a monopoly on scientific understanding and equal treatment of people regardless of race, gender, etc.? Mosques must be festering pools of hate and inequality in your vivid imagination.

and why is it so important for you to discount the role a deity plays in someone's development as a dignified and ethical person who plays well with others?

you're an atheist who has reasoned his way towards treating others well (I won't bother pointing out how badly that tends to work), and then you conclude that the reason you treat others well has everything to do with your being an atheist. No silly believer could understand.

Maybe a deity could teach you a thing or two about humility and not condescending to the vast majority of your beloved fellow humans.

Matt - do you really think of your religion as "superstitious nonesense?"

Maybe you and fra59e really are talking about 2 different things.

Also, unless you are a Christian fundamentalist, the clergy at your church (Catholic or mainline protestant) probably learned something very different about the supernatural in seminary than what you hear about in church.

To fra59e:

Hold on a mo:
You say: "What intolerant nonsense, Deb"

then:

"If any religion depends on maintaining a bunch of superstitious nonsense it deserves to die"

Bit hypocritical, maybe? I am a Christian and proud of my "superstitious nonsense", ie belief in supernatural forces as the integral part of my religion. I have no problem with those who do not subscribe to this view, but in your comment I see an attitude becoming more and more common in this world; those who moan about the intolerance of others towards themselves actually forget to practice what they preach. I think a humanistic take on classical religion is a wonderful thing, but please, don't knock classical religion; at least talk about it in less dismissive ways, especially if you want to be taken seriously.

G epstein is the inntellecual brother of sam harrisim,both are heirs of darwinism and freudianism.
separating divinity from the religion makes it a school of culinary art,another -work-eat- die -school of thought. and of course authenticized by chief harvard.

E Favorite

I was being mischievous and trying to get a rise out of atheists on what they say, what they meant and what they actually do. Some seem be woolly in their posts here:)

Thanks for your posts. I can always count on you to be honest and open about everything. Atheists like you, A Hermit, Maurie Beck, Ba'al et al make me respect atheists.

You all do have different occupations from A Hermit the musician to Ba'al a scientist. And with different taste in the arts too. Like the rest of us, and varying shades of intensity of atheism as a cause.

There are also Muslims like the Christians you mentioned. We call them "nominal" Muslims. Funnily enough, they are the most virulent when it comes to writing against US policies in the Middle East.

I've met "cultural Jews" who defined themselves as a "ethnic" group, not due to their religious convictions on Judaism as a religion, but on their heritage.

You're right about the US's founding fathers, they don't worship but they do adulate. In a secular state, the greatest national unifying factor are a nations' founding father that every citizen, regardless of race, religion and gender, lauded and respected.

Same in Indonesia and Malaysia. We adulate our founding fathers, the fighter for our nation's independence. Nationalism do trump religious affiliations. Ethnic pride do transcend personal religious belief in different gods or no god.

Living in Malaysia, I also do look forward to other religions' festivities such as Christmas, Divali and Vesak Day for time off naturally; and also to celebate with friends who are Christians, Hindus and Buddhists during the Open Houses as Muslims do during their own religous celebrations. Open houses has become a Malaysian tradition and festivities, the best part I think.

All religious festivities has become very commercialised nowadays. The amount of money one spend on Aidil Fitr, the Festival at the end of Ramadan for celebrations, and during Ramadan itself, supposedly an ascetic and spiritual month for reflection for Muslims, beats the Christians celebrating Christmas in some countries.

And the Chistmas break in Malaysia also allow me to take time off right after New Year to be with my family. Who will ever object to Christmas? Not even Muslims.

My post to you here is the last one today in On Faith or for some time perhaps. Am leaving for another destination for work.

Best regards as ever
J

Forgot to post this last paragraph:

As to what atheists are "supposed" to be like - I don't see how you could know. I know numberous atheists - some I've met recently, others I've known for years - in some cases not knowing they were atheists. They run the gamut of personality types, from what I can see. Their journeys are also varied. Some were born atheists, despite their upbringing, and others were believers for years.

I actually enjoy Christmas more now that I don't consider it a religious holiday. I can enjoy the time with family, all the traditional food and drink and music, without getting pissed off about the commercialization. It's no longer sacred - it's just a nice winter holiday.

Jihadist - I'm not "insisting" that believers do anything - just saying what I'd like to see happen. I know a lot of Christian "believers" now who don't seem to believe in the supernatural, but just go along with it, because they like their church community. I know lots of secular Jews, who identify with their tribe, celebrate the high holy days (at least Passover), but firmly reject belief in God.

By the way, US citizens do not worship the founding fathers. Numerous unflattering histories have been written about them that are not disputed. The whole story of the young George Washington admitting to cutting down a cherry tree, "Father, I cannot tell a lie..." has been revealed as a myth. Our relationship to our founding fathers is nothing like religion.

Lovely sentiments Ash M and Tom:)

Let me share my illogical thoughts as only a believer could have.

This Muslim is still very dubious, very sceptical, if every believer shed their "supernatural" beliefs, there be peace on earth.

Do drop the "humanism" or "humanist" to describe thyselves. Secularist is preferable. Or just plain atheists, agnostics, freethinkers or secular humanists. Why so leery on using those more honest to God terms? And I have met atheists who are self-absorbed and into seeking personal gratification of the mind and self.

Calling oneself a secular Hindu or Christian or Muslim perhaps can also be applied for all those who support seperation of church and state. In reality, and throughout history, the believing Muslims, Christians and Hindus do things in life, in rule of law, governance and culture that are temporal and affect the course of current history and current affairs.

Calling oneself a "cultural" Jew or Muslim gives the impression that one wants to celebrates all the cultural and intellectual heritage of those two faiths without the baggage of belief that forms part of the heritage of Islam and Judaism. Having the cake without the sweat of making it?
Or just cherry picking on the best that the great religions of the world from Hinduism to Buddhism to Judaism to Christianity to Islam has to offer?

Atheists are, perhaps, best to describe themselves as universalists as the promoter of universal belief in non-belief of the supernatureal, in their ideals and aspirations.

Some, in shedding the "supernatural" part of their former religious heritage down to their mental underwear or state of belief "nakedness" so to speak, start piling back on their bodies, pieces of clothes and accessories from this and that cultural heritage, beliefs, ethics and values or ideologies.

Of course in replacing supernatural deities, humans are prone to replace them with human deities.

One does not have to look far to see the monuments in honour of Washington, Lincoln or Jefferson in DC are are new idols of the democratic religion/ideology. Or to see in Turkey, the almost deification of Kemal Ataturk.

One need only recall all the pictures and statues to Lenin and Stalin in the former Soviet Union, and Mao in China before to see how we do tend to replace the old gods with new and human ones.

If western democracy and enlightment is a something worthwhile to be added to Muslim heritage and advancement, Muslims would and has, not as 100% replacements, but by adapting. Muslims treat western values with no greater reverence than those of competing currents fo thoughts within Islam.

As for Hinduism and Buddhism, theory in any system of belief or faith, including the theology of belief, the philosphy of the religion, or the ethics and paths are alway lovely. In practice by its adherents, it is something else in the Indian subcontinent on Hinduism; in mainland Southeast Asia on Buddhism say where the adherent of both religions are the majority. And, should we wonder why religion is making inroads in "atheistic" China?

I would feel more comfortable if atheists don't get suddenly touchy feely and misty eyed over "humanism" as the new "secular" belief system to end all delusions and illusions. Atheists are suposed to be hard headed, objective and realists too.

In these threads, at both end of the extremes, it looks like atheists are either pig eating, pig-headed atheistic swines, or tofu eating hyper sensitive secular humanists. I'm interested in those atheists somewhere in between the two extremes.

As always, atheists can better than the posts they send in Mr. Epstein thread here.

All the best
J

Awesome post. One of the best so far on the forum.

David Kearn: Sorry to disappoint you, but Hinduism is not a revealed religion. Its a philosophy and the British actually were the first to define the Indians who followed this philosophy as Hindus and gave the name Hinduism. The holy texts of the Hindus, have been written by people based on their spiritual experiences and are not taken by the 1 billion adherents of the philosophy to be the written word of God. We are free to interpret the scriptures based on universal principles of truth, equality, integrity and goodwill. By questioning our faith, we do not get ostracised nor get killed. We believe that really, as long a human lives in accordance with the universal principles, he /she need not have a religion to spiritual enlightenment. Hope this helps!

If Muslims of all nationalities and cultures were able to shed their belief in the supernatural, but maintain their heritage, I would be thrilled to the core! Let me extend that statement to peoples of all religions, all nations, all cultures.

It is indeed the dream of our time.

Anyone interested in more about Rabbi Sherwin Wine than the potted obits have provided is invited to see the piece I wrote at http://jangle04.home.mindspring.com/wine.html

Christopher W. Chase,

You wrote:

"As for Buddhism, it is most certainly a religion, and not simply a philosophy or ethical system--Buddhism has fundamental ritual components, unlike purely philosophical traditions."

Many, and probably most, students of Buddhism would disagree with you.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "Religion" as:

"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

Buddhism has absolutely no such belief in its teachings.

You say that Buddhism has "fundamental ritualistic components". So does sadomasochism, but that doesn't make it a religion. And many Buddhists have no rituals.

**************************************************

THIS IS FROM THE INTERNET: http://www.amtb.org.tw/e-bud/releases/educati.htm

Buddhism is an Education, Not a Religion

According to the Webster's Dictionary, the definition of religion is as follows, "An organized system of beliefs, rites, and celebrations centered on a supernatural being power; belief pursued with devotion."

Buddhism is not a religion because: First, the Buddha is not a 'supernatural being power'. The Buddha is simply a person who has reached Complete Understanding of the reality of life and the universe. Life refers to ourselves, and universe refers to our living environment. The Buddha taught that all beings possess the same ability within to reach Complete Understanding of themselves and their environment, and free themselves from all sufferings to attain utmost happiness. All beings can become Buddhas, and all beings and the Buddha are equal by nature. The Buddha is not a God, but a teacher, who teaches us the way to restore Wisdom and Understanding by conquering the greed, hatred, and ignorance which blind us at the present moment. The word 'Buddha' is a Sanskrit word, when translated it means, "Wisdom, Awareness/Understanding". We call the founder of Buddhism Shakyamuni 'Buddha' because He has attained Complete Understanding and Wisdom of life and the universe. Buddhism is His education to us, it is His teaching which shines the way to Buddhahood.

Second, Buddhism is not a religion because 'belief' in the Buddha's teachings is not blind belief, blind faith, and far from superstition. Shakyamuni Buddha taught us not to blindly believe what he tells us, he wants us to try the teachings and prove them for ourselves. The Buddha wants us to know, not merely believe. The Buddha's teachings flow from his own experience of the way to understand the true face of life and the universe, and show us a path of our own to taste the truth for ourselves. This is much like a good friend telling us of his trip to Europe, the sights he has seen, and the way to go there and see for ourselves. The Buddha uses a perfectly scientific way of showing us reality in its true form.

Third, Buddhism is not a religion because all the 'rites and celebrations' are not centered on a supernatural being, but rather the people attending the assemblies. The ceremonies and celebrations in Buddhism all serve an educational purpose, a reminder of the Buddha's teachings and encouragement to all students who practice it. For example, the Thousand Buddhas Repentance Ceremony practiced during Chinese New Year is to help the participants cultivate a humble heart and respect for others. The point of all 'ceremonies' is to help others awaken from delusion and return to Wisdom and Understanding.

Finally, Buddhism is not a religion because the 'devotion' used in Buddhism is not one based on emotion, but one based on reason. Students of the Buddha are devoted to their practice of maintaining Purity of Mind because this practice brings true happiness. We are devoted to help others and the Society attain Complete Understanding and Wisdom. Only through Complete Understanding and Wisdom can we realize our true selves and living environment. The Buddha's education is truly not a religion but an education, teaching us the way to break through ignorance and arrive at a perfect understanding of ourselves and everything around us.

　　Our goal is True Happiness.

**************************************************

Regards.

I believe the author is mistaken as to what it means to be Muslim. First, Muslim has always meant someone who believes in Allah and his revelations through Muhammed. Second, as there is no common Islamic ethnicity, culture, language or tradition, there exists no other basis for one to claim to be a Muslim in a meaningful way.

What Salman Rushdie refered to as a cultural or secular Muslim does indeed exist. I believe he means, in his case, the mix of Persian and Arab languages and traditions that pervades modern Indian-Muslim culture and acts as a point of distinction between Muslims (secular or otherwise) and Hindus. I doubt though that it has any carry-over value outside of the Indian subcontinent or that it will engender a sense of shared identity with an Arab or an Indonesian.

Second, in places like India, where the original culture and civilization is still alive and well, and where the national identity has not merged with Islam, an ex-Muslim would, I assume, revert back to describing themselves as culturally Indian rather than culturally Muslim. I would think that most secular Indian Muslims (given the possible meanings of secular, let me say I am only refering to, as I believe Mr. Epstein does, those who do not attribute divine authority to the Quran) would, experience a reconnection with their original indian heritage. I do not mean Indian Muslims are lesser Indians, although I am asserting that there is a prevailing tendency amongst them to depreciate pre-Islamic/non-Islamic Indian cultures and civilization as corrupt, foreign, the "other". I would doubt secular Indians will have any greater affinity to the Arabs than they do to the British.

This may not hold true in other countries that have been more thoroughly Islamicized; perhaps humanist Arab Muslims will continue hold Islam as part of their cherished heritage, much the same way many humanist Europeans continue to call themselves Christians. I would doubt however, they would continue to view the Persians and Pakistanis as their brothers in Islam.

I think that addresses the misconception on the part of the author of the existence of a Muslim 'people' outside of their shared faith in Islam. But I would like to go one step further; I would like to question why one would want to describe himself as a secular/humanist Muslim.

As an ex-Muslim and humanist, I would be misrepresenting who I am and what I believe if I were to describe myself as such. I do not believe in Allah, nor do I share any cultural, linguistic or ethnic loyalties with Muslims (because no grounds for such exists).

Like the author, I also believe that human beings, not deities, determine what it means to lead a moral and ethical life. If Islam has something worthwhile to add to my endeavour to understand what is a moral human being, I welcome it. But I will treat Islam with no greater reverence, nor be less critical of its failings, than any other ideology. As such, there is no need on my part to append 'Muslim' when describing myself as a humanist.

For me to claim to be a "humanist Muslim" would be intellectually dishonest; by confusing the ideas of Islam and humanism, I would be unfair to, and doing a disservice to a proper understanding of both.

A lot of people on this thread seem to have trouble with the idea of being true to a cultural heritage while not buying into its religious beliefs. I am a practicing Catholic, although culturally my background was not Catholic. My husband, on the other hand, is a complete cultural Catholic, but does not currently practice the faith: He doesn't attend mass, he hasn't received the sacrament of reconciliation (i.e. confession) in more than 20 years, and he thinks many specific teachings of the Vatican are pure bulls***.
So Deb is right. He can't call himself a "practicing" Catholic. Isn't that part of Epstein's point?

E Favorite

I'm glad that in itching the supernatural, prayer-answering God, you're happy. Belief in God is a bane, a suffocation, a shackle if one don't believe in it. Or any other belief system at all -from communism to Nazism to Stalinism to Maoism.

But if you insist that all believers must do likewise, would that not be a dictate? Whatever happened to freedom of beliefs? If one can disbelief as a right, surely one can belief in God as a right too.

No wonder Mary Cunningham said communism = atheism as a totatalitarian instinct. Now you are giving ammunitions to believers that contend atheists are equally totalitarian and dictotarial in insisting what people must, and must not believe.

By the way, I'm biologically Eurasian. Dutch mother. Indonesian father. Malaysian husband.

Best regards as always.

J

I'm for humanists of all flavors - Christian, Muslim, Jewish, South Carolinian, euraisan - whatever cultural, ethnic or regional group you choose to identify with. Ditch the supernatural, prayer-answering God and I'm happy.

Mr. Greg M Epstein

What an essay!:)

You stated : "I invite my non-religious Muslim sisters and brothers to walk with me."

Ah so. A reverse discrimation? Only non-religious Muslims can walk with you?

But I am a practicing Muslim, a religious one if you like. I don't mind and have no difficulties and would truly welcome you to walk with me, to have brunch, lunch, high teas and dinner parties with me, to go hiking and scuba diving with me. To talk about the arts with me. Unless you think the non-religious Muslims need sheltering and protection from the manic Muslims who are still believer of God.

And here I am all for inclusion of peoples regardless of faiths and beliefs in my life and work. You are making a new diktat that atheists will exclude all who belief in God just because they believe in God? Or have I deliberately misunderstood your essay? :)

Are believers not to take exception to the notion that only atheists and/or apostates can be humanists or secularists? It gives the perception that all believers are inhumane and not for seperation of church and state, and only rational and logical atheists or apostates have that right and claim.:)

As for those who are no longer Muslims or not practicing Muslims, a better term would be "cultural Muslims" perhaps. But you do know that even in Arab countries, Pan-Arabism or Arabness is more important than being called Muslims. It encompass both Jewish, Christian and Muslim Arabs.

As for Mr. Salman Rushdie, perhaps he may want to describe himself as an Asian (that's how Britain categorise all those from the Indian subcontinent) or writer of Indian origin, as the British media do, or just British. I describe myself as a Malaysian, and of Indonesian origin when pressed further on my ancestors. Never thought of saying I'm a Muslim unless people ask me what my religion is.

And, uhhh, Muslim cultural heritage in music, the arts and architecture is either informed and inspired by Islam or local cultures enriched by it - from the minarets of mosques to the music of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Political struggles for independence in many Muslim countries is also fired by Islam.

I could go on, but never mind, atheist are the new idealists for utopia in the world. Who can argue with that?

Thank you and best regards
J

Quoting:

Deb says:

"the Society for Humanistic Judaism: Jews celebrating Jewish culture heritage without worshiping any god or supernatural entity.
I'm sorry, but that really is ridiculous. If you're a Jew, and you want to celebrate your Jewish culture, that's wonderful. But you can't say you don't believe in God, and in the same breath say that you practice Judaism."

What intolerant nonsense, Deb. Who says you can't be Jewish without being a believer in some supernatural spook? Who says that only jejeune supernaturalism is Judaism?

Surely it is possible to be Jewish and enjoy your Jewishness and practice your Judaism without wallowing in the self-deception of those who imagine there is somebody always watching them from on high.

If any religion depends on maintaining a bunch of superstitious nonsense it deserves to die. Judaism does not. Judaism is a magnificently adaptable and evolving religion.

Fortunately most of us are capable of lustily singing along at the annual neighborhood performance of Handel's "Messiah" without feeling that giving voice to the Hallelujah Chorus is going to make us into Christians.

Personally I am really moved every time I listen to Franz Schubert's "Ave Maria" and it has never yet given me an urge to become a Roman Catholic.

If Humanistic Judaism offers a home to emancipated Jews who can practice their Judaism in a modern and intellectually enlightened way then more power to them. If Deb thinks that's not Judaism, then I wonder if, should she he a Christian, she would be alleging that only Tammy Faye Bakker and Jerry Falwell are in Heaven since it's the fundies in it who are the definers of a faith.

"the Society for Humanistic Judaism: Jews celebrating Jewish culture heritage without worshiping any god or supernatural entity."

I'm sorry, but that really is ridiculous. If you're a Jew, and you want to celebrate your Jewish culture, that's wonderful. But you can't say you don't believe in God, and in the same breath say that you practice Judaism.

שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד

I think Mr. Epstein makes a very interesting point concerning secular and humanistic Muslims. The sitaution is a little different for Humanistic Judaism, since Judaism is often seen to have links to both religion and ethnicity. But certainly, Muslims have a great deal of humanistic heritage to be proud of, including the place of human reason, evolution, and science in revealing the complexity and ingenuity of God's plan. And certainly, some humanistic Muslim philsophers, such as the great Abu Bakr Muhammad Al-Razi, came close to such a vision as proclaimed by Mr. Epstein. So those secular Muslims who choose to work and live for the greater good of humanity do indeed have much to proud of and potentially much to teach others.

As for Buddhism, it is most certainly a religion, and not simply a philosophy or ethical system--Buddhism has fundamental ritual components, unlike purely philosophical traditions. Of course, there are also humanistic Buddhists and a rich tradition of ethical and philosophical content, which is true of any large and established religious tradition.

Very interesting, there is just one mistake...see Islam is a religion, Muslims are the followers of that religion.
The first and fundamental principle of the religion is one God. Now take that away and you have no Muslims.

The great literature was written by Arab poets, some happened to be Muslims which gave them a wider range of inspiration, though might not be the sole reason they were great poets.

Now the science was inspired by the Quran...written by God. So when we are looking back and appreciating the great 15th century we must take into consideration that it was due to the religion of Islam.

Also I think you are taking the media's favorite view of us. That is that we are violent people and we are that way because God told us to be that way.
But that’s wrong. Islam is a religion of peace, and already has tolerance.
Mosques across the US are working to build bridges with Christians and Jews.
I don't think we need to disregard the main teachings of Islam or God to make Islam a religion of humanity and tolerance...it already is!
The problem are some of the people who claim to practice it!

Very interesting, there is just one mistake...see Islam is a religion, Muslims are the followers of that religion.
The first and fundamental principle of the religion is one God. Now take that away and you have no Muslims.

The great literature was written by Arab poets, some happened to be Muslims which gave them a wider range of inspiration, though might not be the sole reason they were great poets.

Now the science was inspired by the Quran...written by God. So when we are looking back and appreciating the great 15th century we must take into consideration that it was due to the religion of Islam.

Also I think you are taking the media's favorite view of us. That is that we are violent people and we are that way because God told us to be that way.
But that’s wrong. Islam is a religion of peace, and already has tolerance.
Mosques across the US are working to build bridges with Christians and Jews.
I don't think we need to disregard the main teachings of Islam or God to make Islam a religion of humanity and tolerance...it already is!
The problem are some of the people who claim to practice it!

Very interesting, there is just one mistake...see Islam is a religion, Muslims are the followers of that religion.
The first and fundamental principle of the religion is one God. Now take that away and you have no Muslims.

The great literature was written by Arab poets, some happened to be Muslims which gave them a wider range of inspiration, though might not be the sole reason they were great poets.

Now the science was inspired by the Quran...written by God. So when we are looking back and appreciating the great 15th century we must take into consideration that it was due to the religion of Islam.

Also I think you are taking the media's favorite view of us. That is that we are violent people and we are that way because God told us to be that way.
But that’s wrong. Islam is a religion of peace, and already has tolerance.
Mosques across the US are working to build bridges with Christians and Jews.
I don't think we need to disregard the main teachings of Islam or God to make Islam a religion of humanity and tolerance...it already is!
The problem are some of the people who claim to practice it!

At its core, Buddhism is inherently and exclusively Humanistic, but, of course, Buddhism is most certainly not a religion, but rather a cosmology, a psychology, and a system of ethics.

Unfortunately I think you have a very uninformed view of Islam. I would have to say that Humanistic Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or any other "revealed" religion makes no sense. If you take away the premise that the relgion was devinly inspired, you take away everything in the religion. I would recommend exploring actual Humanistic philosophies and religions like Confusism, as that makes much more sense (to me).

More importantly the point that I really wish to comment on is the assertion that Islam somehow doesn't openly affirm evolution, secularism, and universal human equality regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or religious background. I am a practicing Muslim who firmly believes that the religion came from God through revelation and I also openly affirm evolution (which I can't imagine any Muslim who wouldn't), affirm anyone's right to accept or reject my faith, and certainly would point out that even detractors of Islam must agree that we firmly believe in equality regardless of race, ethnicity, or social status. There is, I'm sure, quite a bit of debate about gender or religious background, but arguments can be made that Islam is very tolerant of non-Islamic traditions (albeit not treated equally to itself) and a champion of racial equality (though certainly not racial sameness). And yes, I did leave sexual orientation out. Islam, to the best of my knowledge, has a solid "don't ask, don't tell" policy on that one.