Bravo to the bishops

George III despotic rule over the colonies was morally indefensible. Some disagreed. But those who were convinced that the "Creator" had endowed all men with certain rights saw it differently.

Slavery was outlawed because it was morally reprehensible. Some disagreed. Stephen Douglas even warned of a rising theocracy. The abolitionists (who argued in overwhelmingly Christian terms) won out.

The civil rights movement succeded to the extent that it did because vicious, institutional discrimination based on race was morally reprehensible. Some disagreed. MLK argued in overwhelmingly Christian terms.

Now many Americans want to outlaw abortion because it is morally repugnant. Not everyone agrees. Fine. This is where we stand. But to argue in defense of the rights of all members of the human family is hardly a threat to our democracy. On the contrary, it is the starting point of our democracy.

The thing is, Counterww, that the Christian/Catholic churches may have all the influence they like on those who wish to be influenced. However, there lobbying of Congress stands in violation of the country's nonestablishmentiarian principles.

Two-thirds of Catholics strongly object to the bishops' meddling. This will end as soon as we, the people, will it to end.

We will get the churches out of the Congress. Various secularist organizations have finally come to understand that it will take a lawsuit.

It is about time.

The problem, COUNTERWW, is that for you, exerting your influence on government means denying me my rights to equal protection under the 5th and 14th Amendments. No one is arguing that people who follow religion shouldn't be allowed exert influence on government. But that's not what you're really after - what you actually want is for the law to be applied unequally, in accordance with YOUR religion dictates. And we're not going to let that happen. And if you try to make it happen, we are going to fight your attempts to impose your narrow beliefs on the entire country.

Actually Farnaz, everyone gets a place at the political table, even religious folks. Some here have this fallacy , or idea that separation of church and state means that the church should not have any influence on the society and in government over policy, laws etc. etc. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The founders, many deists, others Christians, did not believe as those on this forum seem to think.

Washington said in his farewell address the following:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

The people who have religious underpinnings have a right to influence this country and its laws. If you don't like it, make it into a country that excludes all the religious folks you seem to disagree with. It's nothing like the Taliban (strawman sort of argument) or anything of the sort. It's that everyone can come and influence our govt , that is what democracy is supposed to be like. All of you believe in democracy until the religious people exercise their influence, then you want it to be different. It will never be that way, and the religious people are not going to go away and just pray in our churches and homes. We have a voice, and a vote, and have the constitutional right to influence govt as we think they should put forth policy and law.

The issue for Americans is not what the Catholic bishops or Evangelical Christians declare or believe. The issue is whether they are to govern the United States of America.

If they are, then we might as well stop voting and allow them to appoint members of Congress, the president, and the Court.

If they are not, then we must eliminate the "conscience clause" and pass legislation prohibiting religious institutions from lobbying Congress.

In other words, we, the people, must act to separate Church and State. We must do this by inundating our elected officials with emails, petitions, etc.

Separation of Church and State has never been fully realized in the US. The dream is getting away from us. The time to act is now.

Quote For The Day

“Former Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife, Lynne Cheney, welcomed their seventh grandchild, Sarah Lynne Cheney, Wednesday, November 18, 2009. She weighed 6 lbs., 14 oz and was born at 8:17 A.M. at Sibley Hospital in Washington, D.C.

"Her parents are the Cheney's daughter Mary and her partner, Heather Poe.”

Posted by: norriehoyt
----------------------------------

good point, norrie

Maybe if God blessed the rest of these hateful homophobes with gay grandchildren like he did Lord Cheney, they too, would open up their cold dark "Christian" hearts.

Oops, I forgot. Members of the Catholic clergy can't have grandchildren (at least not their own)

Comes now the hateful, intolerant Huckabee Carey defending equally offensive Donohue Catholic bishops.

The real question is would he leave his son alone at CYO with a "celibate" priest?

Quote For The Day

“Former Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife, Lynne Cheney, welcomed their seventh grandchild, Sarah Lynne Cheney, Wednesday, November 18, 2009. She weighed 6 lbs., 14 oz and was born at 8:17 A.M. at Sibley Hospital in Washington, D.C.

"Her parents are the Cheney's daughter Mary and her partner, Heather Poe.”

The Catholic Bishops are behaving like a kid who threatens to hold his breath until he turns blue if he doesn't get what he wants. Sorry sweetie pie, momma doesn't agree. Now go into your room and think about what you're doing, the people you want to hurt, and why it's not nice to be mean to people just because you disagree with something that doesn't hurt anybody.

It is actually rather sad that the many good works of the Catholic Church should be tied to a quaint superstition, such that the effect of their acts is undone by the perversity of their principles.

These Catholic Bishops are not commenting and making threats (to stop feeding hungry children and the homeless) as any other citizen in this nation, but based on authority granted to them by a foreign governmnet, the Vatican.

If we are to ignore the influence of one foreign government being exerted in our secular society, where does it end? Shall we bow to the religious authorities of Iran simply because an American citizen happens to be an imam making demands on their behalf?

"The ridiculous opposition to birth control and reasonable pregnancy terminations..." This comment deserves these words.....
"When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leapt in her womb. Elizabeth...cried out in a loud voice: "blest is the fruit of your womb." "the baby leapt in my womb for joy." How many living human beings never got a chance to leap or move in their mother's womb because they were aborted.

If Mr. Carey wrote that black and white Americans could not marry, would he still be invited to appear in the Washington Post? Just because Carey is selective in his bigotry does not mean that he isn't a bigot. Bigotry isn't "just another point of view". It's hatred, and it has no place here.

I wonder if the Bishops might have been pragmatically better to have left the provisions to permit private insurance alone, and even left in provisions for government provided insurance to pay for abortions, and insisted on language else where in the bill that controversial, unproven, and experimental medical procedures paid for with government funds must have appropriate medical tests and appropriate counseling to insure informed consent.

Project rachel claims a high success rate when they can get contact with women considering abortions, who will lsiten to the alternatives.

If the provisions for government funding of abortions could prevent 100k probable abortions, and not really add any abortions that wouldn't otherwise to have occurred, that would seem to be quite a gain, wouldn't it?

(All you pro lifers who want to object, consider that whether the government makes funds available or not, virtually all women considering, and having, abortions will find a way. Having to undergo medical tests, like ultra sound, and counseling on alternatives to abortion, apparently are the BEST current inhibitions to abortion for women who ARE amenable to being dissuaded from having one.

So which is better, stopping many abortions, or feeling good about not paying for the ones that you wouldn't have had to pay for anyway?)

"Evangelicals have a long if uneven history of civic engagement, including leadership in movements for the abolition of slavery and women's suffrage, though many of us were conspicuously absent from the civil rights struggles."

Actually, many evangelicals WERE present at the civil rights struggles -- but on the other side. Rick Warren eulogized his mentor, W.A. Criswell, for decades the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, as being the greatest American preacher of the 20th century; white nationalists repeatedly praised him for actively condoning the use of thugs to keep Baptist churches segregated. For example,

http://www.nationalist.org/ATW/1996/nov.html

Many have commented on the bizarreness of giving serious credence in civil law to the opinions as to legitimate marital relations by an organization run by men who have never been in any sort of marital relationship but who have a long and sordid history of institutionalized sexual abuse of children. Perhaps if the Church had not had to pay out $2.6 billion, so far, to victims, it might not be so concerned to take taxpayer money while insisting on the right to ignore the law.

I will simply point out that Bigot Malone, Bigot of Portland, thought that his flock would be better served by his closing parishes, depriving the faithful of the opportunity to celebrate traditional marriage in the churches that they and their forebears had sacrificed to build, in order to have funds to fight same-sex marriage.

And I will add that rather than allow the use of condoms, the dogma promulgated by the Catholic Church -- and by far too many evangelicals -- calls for a wife to risk contracting HIV/AIDS every time that she and an HIV+ husband enjoy the intimacies of marriage -- or do within the intimacies of marriage til one of the couple dies.

This may not be entirely the fault of the Catholic Bishops. It's important to keep in mind that Pope Benedict has never served as a parish priest, familiar with the daily needs and life of the faithful. Instead, he has lived his entire adult life surrounded by men who, like him, have rejected earthly marriage. At best, they have only second-hand knowledge of family life, never having personal knowledge of physical commitment to another human being.

Now of course many Catholics, both religious and lay, have striven to take Jesus' teachings to heart, and they should be commended.

However, if the bishops want to choose celibacy and rejection of marriage for themselves, that's none of my concern. But when they seek to make public policy to deprive others of rights, based on their own theology as developed within a society that does not reflect the world as it is, then that becomes my concern.

Chapters 1 and 2 of the Book of Genesis : /"And God created humanity in his image, male and female He created them, And God blessed them and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it ----'"And: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and become attached (or "joined ", or "united" ) to his woman wife and they shall become one flesh." This verse, as we all well know, is the verse that Jesus quoted in Mark Chapter 10, wherein He in His teaching was upholding the sacredness of marriage. In these verses of Holy Scripture/,/ God did not place two males, or two females, in that Garden of Eden and call on them to simply enjoy their fulfillment in becoming "one flesh" with their partner

The poster who said that priests pay taxes as self-employed is actually incorrect. Clergy do pay income tax, but it is a little complicated. Our salary, if we are employed by a church or organization, has been considered for many years to be that of an employee. Income produced from other sources (wedding gifts, etc.) is considered self-employed income. On the other hand, our SSI is considered as that one one who is self-employed. Therefore any expenses we deduct are generally on a lower basis, since deductions are taken as an employee; on the other hand, we must pay both parts of SSI so our taxes there are higher as well. One advantage that clergy do have is in housing - if they have a separate housing allowance, that does not have to be claimed as income for tax purposes, although it must be claimed for SSI. You getting all that? And that's before things get complicated!

You did not accept my comment because you claim "too many comments recently" - I have never commented on the "On Faith" blog, ever. You must be mistaken - or lying.

These "heroic" catholic bishops are the same ones who molested children and/or allowed other bishops and clergymen to do so. Protecting the "unborn" apparently means not protecting the "born." It also means not protecting another "born" person, namely women. It is disgusting that even one of you so-called religious men can be so arrogant as to think that you have the right to have anything at all to say about abortion. "Heroism" is lacking in any organized religion whose leaders tell others how to live and what they must do in order not to "sin" for they themselves are the sinners.

The Catholic Bishops have been campaigning for illegal immigrants which has nothing to do with the common good of our country. They act as a special-interest group when they frustrate the will of the people and enforcement of our laws. That is not the proper function of a tax-exempt religious organization.

A number of posts comment about the Bishops and Priest leading a tax free existence. To set the matter straight, the salaries of Bishops and Priests in the U.S. are taxable on the Federal and State levels in the same manner as any other person. In fact, they are considered self-employed and pay both sides of Social Security. It is the property of the church that is exempt from property taxes for Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc.

I find it difficult to take the Catholic Church seriously on any issue they care to pontificate on these days. I mean, until they clean up their ministry of pedophile priests and come clean on how they enabled these criminals to operate freely in their parishes over the decades they should keep their mouths shut on all moral matters.

Then they can start working on their attitudes toward and treatment of women, medieval attitudes to homosexuals, unenlightened views on fetal tissue research, etc. etc.

Actually, it might be best if they just shutter that anachronistic institution of mostly deviant white men and follow the Republican Party into oblivion.

There are many comments wishing the Catholic Church would lose its tax exempt status---I'm a practicing Catholic and I'm with you all the way.

You see--the way the Catholic Church works today---without the tax exemption priests and bishops would be free to preach against abortion, Obama and homosexual marriage. They would be free and have no excuse--because if they didn't preach against these things they would have substantial demonstrations against them in their parking lots from thousands of Catholics who believe "tax exemption" is a hindrance to the truth.

I would make an educated guess that many of the bshops are vocal because of pressure from their flocks. I for one pray for an end to tax restrictions.I would gladly join millions of other Catholics who would make it up in the collection plate.

Plum

While I reject the idea, I think it needs mentioning that people who oppose abortion don't do so in order to promote governmental moral regulation, but to protect what they view as human life. I believe that the "unborn" aren't living humans and don't merit the protection of the government above the right to bodily control, but I think we miss the point when we criticise the Church for lobbying the government or for conservatives being allegedly hypocritical.

They aren't hypocritical. They're just wrong.

Mr. Carey,

Like the RCC, you are not amusing. You're not amusing so long as you benefit from nonprofit status and are permitted to lobby the Congress, bringing a foreign element into American legislation.

ONce the Congress passes legislation making it illegal for religious institutions to lobby elected officials, you will become entertaining.

When you lose nonprofit status altogether, you will be worth a laugh. Ditto the "heroic bishops."

Mr. Carey, you write "The bishops' just-released pastoral letter provides a compelling vision of marriage as a 'cradle of the civilization of love.' That too deserves careful consideration by all people of good will."

I submit that all people of good will should acknowledge the manifest fact that there are many families where loving gay couples nurture children and bring them up to be tolerant and loving individuals who care about the world around them. We deserve protection too. Mr. Carey & the RC bishops would deny it to us, but the DC govt and many more enlightened religious leaders take a different view, thank God.

Mr. Carey: The right to be heard does not equate with the right to be taken seriously. Nor should it presume to speak for others.

AynRand7:
"There IS a Christ, and homosexuality was, is and always will be a grave sin. And every Christian is COMMANDED to fight this sin regardless of what the assinine courts and legislators say or how they rule."

Really? Perhaps you could quote the chapter and verse where Jesus condemns homosexuality? (Note I said Jesus, not Paul.)

The greatest creator of atheists and agnostics is organized religion. They preach love, mercy and peace yet only instill fear, hatred and ALWAYS, ALWAYS ask for money!

Don't follow leaders ... especially religious ones!

"It is necessary for salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." - Pope Boniface VII

Any problem with the above? If so, you go to hell.

The greatest creator of atheists and agnostics is organized religion. They preach love, mercy and peace yet only instill fear, hatred and ALWAYS, ALWAYS ask for money!

The RCC is governed by a group of bigots. With this stance against gays and lesbians and the rights women have over their OWN bodies they are just encouraging those fanatics who are filled with hate. By being so overtly bigoted, they are giving validity to the hatred of people who could do violence against certain people.

This country is secular. We have separation of church and state. When did the RCC get elected to Congress with the right to attempt to write legislation to reflect their so called beliefs?

Same with their stance against the gay marriage issue in DC and their announcement if this passes in the District, they will pull out their social services.

Let them. They are just exposing what I have always said about them [as a recovering catholic] they are punitive and nasty and non-charitable out to enforce their rules and regulations above all other considerations.

Maybe they should focus more on cleaning up their own house before they attempt to exert "moral authority" over others. They lost their right to subject people to their beliefs a long time ago.

"Religious leaders are first of all citizens and they enjoy the same rights as any other citizens and civic leaders to engage in public debate on policy questions."

Right off the bat Rev. Carey serves us a delicious red herring. True, there may be some to would rather the bishops simply shut up, but that's beside the point.

The point is, the bishops are wrong. Their positions regarding abortion or same-sex marriage may be doctrinally correct, but they are still repugnant to a democratic order.

I would never deign to demand that the bishops change their doctrine; they in turn should should respect the doctrines of a constitutional democracy.

The only moral imperative for our good Bishops is to return all of the loot they have stolen over that last 2000 years. It would do far more to help protect the immigrants, the poor, the sick, the elderly, and the unborn than any of their obnoxious platitudes and ignorant opposition to sincere efforts to provide decent Health Care to all. The ridiculous opposition to birth control and reasonable pregnancy terminations denies them and their fellow travelers like Mr. "steal when I can" Carey any say in taken care of our citizens. Better they clean their own criminal enterprises before opposing ending the graft and malfeasance of our so-called Health-Care Insurance racketeers!

Galen,
"For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."
The race is a long one.Peace to you.

The Catholic bishops have very pointedly omitted their reluctance to correct the problems in their own ranks with pedophile priests. Their noses are into everybody's business where a person's right to choose a course of action for themselves should be a fundamental right; and you'll find them intruding into people's sex orientation. But you'll never find them minding their own business, i.e., their own failings. As for their support for illegal immigration, it's their big chance to get more Catholics into the fold, as replacements for the the thousands of American Catholics who've turned their backs on the Church and its antiquated leadership.

Mr. Carey, would you mind addressing the historical and current roles of (most)religious leaders in protecting the rights and welfare of lesbians, gay men, and pregnant women?

Consistent pro-life ethic? Not so good on that since Cardinal Bernadin's passing. Sorry to see bishops denying communion in a very public way to pro-life voting politicians; why don't those same bishops deny communion to torture supporters and death penalty advocates, for example? That would be consistency.

Representatives of any church seeking to restrict the distribution of aid of a legal medical procedure or medication that is legal is an attempt to restrcit the freedom of our citizens for a strictly religious moral view is a violation of freeom of church and state and should result in the revocation of tax exempt status and all faith based intiatives that promote religious bias with our tax money.

"Illegal immigrants: The Bible states no person may stay in anothers place without permission. So the Church is breking the laws as much as the illegals"

Uh-oh, Ill call up the rest of the Native peoples in the Us, Canada, and Latin America and let them know that you all are giving us our land back! I knew you guys would come around : )

This piece is laughable. The sentence structure and grammar is adequate but the historical perspective just is not there. "A long and uneven history of civic engagement"??? How about open support of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and so on? Everyone knows the "most segregated hour in America" occurs on a Sunday. Sure, all churches do some good. Please do not absolve them from greed and responsibility for the perpetuation of many of society's ills. They do this, in large part by ignoring them. Some do participate...willingly.

Mr. Carey's righteousness of "justice, mercy and humility" includes:

- capital punishment even though his commandments say "Thou shall not kill"

- discrimination against gays sometimes including gay-bashing, violence and looking the other way at the vile hatred of his fellow Baptist "Pastor" Fred Phelps even though his Jesus says "Love thy brother as thyself"

- His fellow "Conservative Christian" pastors praying openly in the pulpit for the President of the United States to die before his time in office expires.

- pre-emptive war for oil and Israel based on biblical beliefs to accelerate the "rapture" brought on by conflict in the middle east.

- torture

- sedition as manifested by Huckabee's stated intention of "changing the Constitution" to his twisted Leviticus cherry-picking version of "God's Standards"

Once in America, a politician's religion had little to do with whether or not he or she was elected and then re-elected. Now it's the number one issue voters must consider thanks to the likes of Carey and Donahue Catholics like the old pervert-hiding Bishops hijacking poor old Jesus for their narrow neocon agendas.

The US is threatened by Carey's creeping theocracy which is no less an enemy of our freedoms than The Taliban.

RELIGION should not be a part of GOVERNMENT.

2. Illegal immigrants: The Bible states no person may stay in anothers place without permission. So the Church is breking the laws as much as the illegals.
Posted by: AynRand7

___________________________________

So you chose not to cherry-pick Leviticus 19:33 in regard to immigrants? How typical of your Huckabee and Donohue Catholic ilk.

PS: get a spell checker

I am amazed that Mr. Carey can assert that he believes in the righteousness of "justice, mercy and humility" at the same time he claims that his view of when life begins and his view of the types of morally acceptable marriage are the only legitimate views. This is a very severe form of hypocrisy and religious bigotry that is dangerous to the freedoms and justice we enjoy in the U.S.

Mr. Carey demonstrates superbly why the 1st amendment was written the way it was- to expressly prohibit public policy made on a religious basis. The framers of the constitution knew well that a tyranny of the majority (see James Madison's Federalist 10) would tend to take away the civil rights of minorities, if allowed. The separation of religion and government is vital to democracy, and from preventing people like Mr. Carey from turning this country into another Iran-style Theocracy.

I am a Catholic and I am withholding any further financial support to the Church due to this situation. I think the wealth of the Church should be shared with the poor and needy and realize that Christ never spoke a word about same sex anything.

DAVIDD1 - Yes, that's possible, likely even, from someone calling herself Ayn Rand. Little but rank ignorance can be expected from anyone who takes that screwed-up, hate-filled kook seriously.

Too bad evangelicals have all too often been on the side of intolerance, hatred, and racism. They make all organized religion look evil.

The Catholic Bishops should stay out of politics, unless they want to lose their tax-exempt status. Their typical short-sighted, single issue focus nullifies any good that they do.

I opened my eyes one day and saw that the evil that organized religion causes far outweighs any good that it does. The evangelicals spend more time trying to convert other people who already have their own religions than they do providing social services. Keep your religions to yourselves.

Is it possible that someone who calls him/herself "AYNRAND7" doesn't know that Ms. Rand was an atheist?

Bunch of old, white, out of touch guys. I'm sick of hearing their same lame arguments against gay marriage. I pay lots of taxes to not have civil rights. The Catholic Church is tax-exempt. I almost threw up when I visited the Vatican a couple of years ago and actually saw the vast wealth that could be used to feed and cloth the poor and hungry.

Definition of a Protestant: Someone who believes that just because they pis.ed off the Pope doesn’t mean they did anything wrong. Consequently, they experience a never-ending infinitude of intense pleasure through continually doing so.

the catholic church has a vested interest in creating poverty and illiteracy...its charities are mere window dressing

I had hoped that the pedophile scandals would shame the Catholic clergy into reticence on matters of sex and sexuality. I guess not. This nest of old perverts knows no shame. Instead they're more adamant than ever in maintaining bigotry against psychologically healthy gay people living honest lives in accordance with their innate sexual orientation by denying their relationships the social validation that the institution of marriage confers. To make matters even more incredible the Catholic church has yet to even come up with a clear doctrine on the matter of homosexuality. It's "intrinsically disordered" (the conservative position based on the entirely unscientific notion that sex in humans and higher animals is only about procreation) while at the same time they say that all sexuality is a gift from God but homosexuals are called upon to be chaste (the nonsensical and absurd "liberal" position). Funny how Jesus never uttered a single sentence in condemnation of same-sex love and attraction. Shouldn't the absence of a word on that subject from the man they claim is the very WORD of GOD MADE FLESH indicate to them that at a minimum He obviously didn't consider it too important? Certainly not the sin of all sins it has become for so many of His modern day followers, Catholic and Protestant alike. Finally, I nearly gagged at the reference to evangelicals caring about people living with HIV/AIDS. I seem to recall that in the first decade of the epidemic they regarded it as the wrath of God come down upon gays, never mind that throughout the world the vast majority infected are and were then heterosexual. Using the disease to promote homophobia was just too tempting to pass up. Ten years of leadership by the US to combat the disease were lost as a result. Countless millions around the world are now infected or dead as a result. OK, I'm done. Now I need to have my blood pressure taken.

1. To the athiests and gays: While you have the freedom to not believe in Christ nor God, and gays- to promote homosexuality- you are wrong in your positions. Be adults. Get over it. There IS a Christ, and homosexuality was, is and always will be a grave sin. And every Christian is COMMANDED to fight this sin regardless of what the assinine courts and legislators say or how they rule. We'll follow God's laws, not mans regardless of cost. Know this. Call it hate speech? Don't care. Call us intolerant? Don't care. It's Scripture.

We'll pray for you, certainly. NOTE: God hates the sin of homosexuality NOT the sinners. But sinners choose their eternal fate.

2. Illegal immigrants: The Bible states no person may stay in anothers place without permission. So the Church is breking the laws as much as the illegals.

3. Absolutes of right and wrong exist.

"Bravo to the Catholic bishops for their heroic efforts to protect immigrants, the poor, the sick, the elderly, and the unborn as the current health care debate unfolds."

Are these the same Catholic Bishops that's trying to strong-arm the DC Council to discriminate against same sex couples? What does gay marriage have to do with protecting immigrants, feeding the hungry or caring for the sick? The Catholic Church is and always will be the driving force of all evil in the world.

Screw the bishops. They are a bunch of old, intolerant, perverts. And they ask me why I am an atheist.

This same group of bishops threaten to stop feeding the hungry in DC because they don't like DC's human rights policies and you yell bravo!?

To the extent that Catholic bishops accept a charitable/educational tax-exempt status for their church's activities, they must abjure lobbying congress as a group. As individuals they may vote and contact their elected representatives. As a group they must restrict themselves to charitable activities or we may need to look into their tax-exempt status. This matter has needed reviewing for some time.

"Religious leaders are first of all citizens and they enjoy the same rights as any other citizens and civic leaders to engage in public debate on policy questions."

Don't go talking about how religious leaders are the same as everyone else - and then turn around and demand that religious leaders get to exempt from taxation because they are somehow special. Can't have your cake and eat it too - only truly "special" people get to do that.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ to guide all people on the path to heaven. However, each of us has been given the free will to follow whatever path we choose, with the caveat that we will be judged by God at the end of our lives.
The Church counsels us to love one another, including gays and immigrants, while at the same time recognizing the legitmate rights of immigrants to free travel and the illegimate "right" of gays to engage in improper behavior.
I applaud the Catholic Church for providing its guidance in the face of rampant societal derision.

Yay for the catholic bishops? for what?
For mixing Church and State?

We are a democracy, not a theocracy. If they insist to continue foiling with matters of the State, then they should be regulated by a Federal agency, and taxed like other corporations.

all of these religious neurotics, including the Lutheran, African Anglican, and RC churches, will defend to the death their rights to judge and condemn and hate, all in the name of Jesus, who condemned condemnation and whose WHOLE message was about the love of God for us, and about our loving God and each other. Where in all the gospels does Jesus say--"oh, except gay folks, feel free to hate and judge those nasty creatures." ????? you pharisees have held Jesus' message hostage through various inquisitions, persecutions, and pogroms, for 2000 years--neurotically trying to control God Godself. When are you going to grow up and get your prurient noses out of other peoples' bedrooms, and realize how much you are actually powerless over??

While I agree with the Bishops that immigrants should be protected - I disagree that the church should hide or shelter illegal immigrants from deportation.
It sends the wrong message to the people that are putting money into the coffers. If I think my money is going to an illegal alien who is already on welfare and who is taking money away from the elderly then its a zero sum game and I should be putting my donation in the old folks home instead.