WWJD? What Would Jefferson Do?

dwilsontx:

Informative and pointed post, Diana.

I am not an atheist but agree with much of what you say. Great points about data on atheists showing healthier lives. Is that true, and where do you come by the data?
I have been spiritually inclined since I was young. Seen my share. One thing that often 'can' occur for those deeply rooting their egos and consciousnesses into a religious path is a form of craziness. You brought up "religion is dangerous, and a state of insanity, and c) "god" is an expression of the one's own alter ego." Interesting...
I have seen that be healthy, and not so healthy. Insanity is a strong word, but can fit. Alter ego can fit.
Without attentiveness and care, going deep into the phyche, one can loose it. On a level that is part of the point of pursuit of spirituality, originally. To shed, and shred, the mask of persona for the deeper Self. But, (assuming there is a deeper Self, not sure the atheist take on this), is can be a slippery slope, and Paradise is not always found at the end of it. Look at worldwide mythology and journeys to the Underworld.
On the brighter side, I know many people that have devoted themselves to valid spiritual paths and are far greater people than they were when they started. Religion was not, for them, particularly dangerous. And if it is an alter ego that operates now, it is one that you might wish upon another.
Thank you for your post.
Justin

Thomas Jefferson and most of the founders of the US were "functional atheists." For that reason alone if you read their private letters, no "god" or deity, nor any religion was put into the US Constitution or the US Bill of Rights. If you visit the gravestones of nearly all of the founders, you will find that nary a one has a "cross," a star of david, or any religious symbols displayed on their last resting places. In counterpoint, there is Mike Huckabee, one of a dozen preachers running for political office, (and I quote) who stated that if the religious come to be the dominant power in the US they were "going to take the US back for jesus." The most serious problem of the religious taking the US "back for jesus," is that the founders of the US knew their European history in which more than 50 million people have been murdered in the name of "god." We all understand that Islam is dangerous, but so is christianity although the common tome is "god is love." Well, not exactly. If one goes to www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm...they will see more than 50 bible verses in which the Hebrew and Christian "god" demand "murder, torture, abortion, slavery, selling of one's daughters into bondage, genocide, and child abuse" for all "infidels." If Huckabee and his crowd came to power, they would most likely dust off those murderous bible verses and begin the jihad again (as is the history of the bible) against all infidels. Although there are many "nice" christians who profess good feelings and tolerance, they are in fact apostates not fulfilling "god's laws" against infidels. This is the problem of religion, and for a president or anyone in governmental service recommending, or attempting to pass "religious-oriented" laws to "control" those who are not believers...is just outrageous. In fact, many people are now reading the bible very carefully these days to see what the bible really says...which has become the best instrument for Atheists concluding a) there is no god, and b) religion is dangerous, and a state of insanity, and c) "god" is an expression of the one's own alter ego. What is not being addressed by the religious who don't understand there is a massive change in how Americans and the world think...are the polls that one in four people between the ages of 15 and 25 no longer "believe" in any deity or the bible. Barely 5% of Europeans go to church. The religious need to ask why? Because this is the 21st century, and the religious cannot and have not proven there is a god...not once in 10,000 years of religious history. And, the argument that one needs a belief in a deity to be a "good person" is so false, its laughable. All data show that Atheists have lower divorce rates, lower crime rates, less child abuse rates, they are more likely to be college graduates, and have less mental illness. As many people are becoming aware, there are very good reasons to "not" believe in a religion or a god. Diana Wilson PhD

Paganplace:

I agree that it would be a better place if those in power did not use that power in a way that marginalizes the minorities. Yet it is a natural state that the minority have to operate in a less than fertile environment for their beliefs while being at the effect of what the majority want. You know that, at least spiritually speaking, being a pagan living in America.
Now I am not one that thinks that these evangelical activists represent a majority in America. They do use megaphones pronouncing they are a majority, and there are flocks of 'em, but they are not a majority. Just active and loud, proclaiming that they are the new Chosen People.
You may be overreacting a bit in your post, if related to Mr. Salguero's essay. He did not seem to be pressing his evangelical pre-eminance here. In fact he seemed clear that church ought to stay out of state.

I cannot wait for W to get out. I am not looking forward to whatever meaningless garbage he has to say this Thanksgiving. He has lost all credibility, yet seems to wander along as if in a dream believing that he is still a force of good. He, as the face to the evangelical and neo-conservative movement, can't go far enough away for me to be happy.
I hope that along with him go the faithful. They can set up a temple for the coming King on his ranch in crawford and live there till the next coming of their messiah.
As we have seen, that has been a long time coming...

And so likely there is more that we will hear from our christian bretheren.
Peace, pagan
Justin

Paganplace:

I agree that it would be a better place if those in power did not use that power in a way that marginalizes the minorities. Yet it is a natural state that the minority have to operate in a less than fertile environment for their beliefs while being at the effect of what the majority want. You know that, at least spiritually speaking, being a pagan living in America.
Now I am not one that thinks that these evangelical activists represent a majority in America. They do use megaphones pronouncing they are a majority, and there are flocks of 'em, but they are not a majority. Just active and loud, proclaiming that they are the new Chosen People.
You may be overreacting a bit in your post, if related to Mr. Salguero's essay. He did not seem to be pressing his evangelical pre-eminance here. In fact he seemed clear that church ought to stay out of state.

I cannot wait for W to get out. I am not looking forward to whatever meaningless garbage he has to say this Thanksgiving. He has lost all credibility, yet seems to wander along as if in a dream believing that he is still a force of good. He, as the face to the evangelical and neo-conservative movement, can't go far enough away for me to be happy.
I hope that along with him go the faithful. They can set up a temple for the coming King on his ranch in crawford and live there till the next coming of their messiah.
As we have seen, that has been a long time coming...

And so likely there is more that we will hear from our christian bretheren.
Peace, pagan
Justin

And I think, Justill, a 'happy medium' might be found when, well, certain people don't use government proclamations and whatever they can to 'mark territory' as part of an agenda to marginalize non-Christians and non-conservatives in our own country.

It's not like Presidents haven't celebrated Thanksgiving before, ...rarely has it been part of a mass assault on the rights of everyone else.

It's not quaint when it's that.

Quaint, we can deal with, though.

You'd think Christians could figure out the distinction between that which makes you seem like nice people and that which makes everyone brace for being burnt in effigy and watching for what thrust against civil rights follows the ceremonial sweep.

"Cautious of our power?"

That'd be nice, Mr. Salguero, if US government power belonged to you as a Christian in the first place.

It's mine, too. Everyone's. The reason we even have to *talk* about this is cause Christianist agendas *forget* that.

Thank you for your post, Mr. Salguero.

Would that we could find a happy medium in this debate. Though I do not think that a Presidential proclaimation of prayer or thanksgiving is an assault on the First Amendment, it could be. And so the reason to be extremely neutral religiously, and so bland. But then that beats having any perceived religious bias in the proclaimation.
We can see some theocracies and quasi-theocracies in the world and the only ones that are happy are those that the religion in power serves. The freedoms of all others are invariably crushed or curtailed. Soon they have to wear identifying symbols on their outer garments as they are prepared for the trains.
We must maintain a republic that allows liberty and freedom for ALL spiritual belief systems.
Yet, what a horrid world if it were whitewashed of the belief in the Divine!
How to maintain a balance of liberty for God loving people while holding off a sanitizing of God in the public square.

Amen to that! Love everything you wrote!