Stereotyping Palin and Pentecostalism

Lunacy is lunacy is lunacy.

Unfortunately, Mr. Salguero didn't say a word about why we should not find Pentecostals scary, other than that we don't want them to feel bad.

He's right, of course, that our voting decisions should be based upon policies, political philosophy, leadership qualities, and decision-making processes. But these Pentecostals' beliefs about philosophy, science, history, and witchcraft seem to be so far outside of the mainstream that Palin's faith absolutely is relevant.

Beliefs have consequences.

Are we really talking about a candidate's thoughts on witchcraft? What the #*%@!!

From Harry Truman, A Southern Baptist

"[The Baptists] do not want a person to go to shows or dance or do anything for a good time. Well I like to do all those things and play cards besides. So you see I am not very strong as a Baptist. Anyhow I don't think any church on earth will take you to heaven if you're not real anyway. I believe in people living what they believe and talking afterwards.... (From a letter to Bess Wallace, March 19, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)

Speaking in tongues bespeaks a certain fundamentalist view of Biblical metaphors. Much of the Bible is a metaphorical guide to ethical living and faith. It is important to be able to distinguish the literal and historical from the metaphorical in religion and politics. Such behavior also suggests a rather unfettered emotional temperament on the part of the believer. Both of these are legitimate characteristics to understand about a politician.

"Whether a candidate speaks in tongues or not is not indicative of how he/she will govern nor is it relevant to his/her role as a national leader."

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/gabriel_salguero/2008/09/palin_pentecostalism_a_cartoon.html

NOT! if one lets one's subconscious take over and rolls on the floor and babbles incoherent nonsense and believes it's the spirit of "god" working through them, they need help, serious help.

Just as if one believes in witchcraft, AKA Sarah Palin, to the point where one (she) asks a pastor to protect them (her) from witchcraft one is classified as mentally ill. The Ian McKellen version of "Richard III" (1995) illustrates this perfectly set in 1930's England, Richard III is fairly rational and fights the war well, until in this atmosphere of technical achievement he starts babbling about witchcraft. He looks crazy and sounds crazy and in the context of modern civilization he IS mentally ill.

Both speaking in tongues and believing in witchcraft indicate a serious lack of understanding about how the world in structured and beliefs which take take one back to the days when people were burned at the stake out of fear due to a lack of understanding about how the weather works, crops grow, and people die.

If I were voting in this election, which I am, and I knew one candidate (Sarah Palin) was so mentally ill that they refuse to understand basic facts of science and civilization I would be terrified of their succession to office.

Seriously.

Here's a description of a holy roller meeting by HL Mencken, and while Rev. Gabriel Salguero suggests things have changed since 1926 and not to confuse pentacostals with holy rollers, speaking in tongues, believing in witches, or twitching on the ground are all symptoms of some deep set illness or lack of understanding of how the world works, and how society has evolved since 1500.

Even if you disagree, enjoy the writings of genius a portion of which is posted below.
http://www2.volstate.edu/socialscience/FinalDocs/WWI-20s/menckenreconversion.htm

It was like peeping through a knothole at the writhings of a people in pain. From the squirming and jabbering mass a young woman gradually detached herself -- a woman not uncomely, with a pathetic home-made cap on her head. Her head jerked back, the veins of her neck swelled, and her fists went to her throat as if she were fighting for breath. She bent backward until she was like half of a hoop. Then she suddenly snapped forward. We caught a flash of the whites of her eyes. Presently her whole body began to be convulsed -- great convulsions that began at the shoulders and ended at the hips. She would leap to her feet, thrust her arms in air and then hurl herself upon the heap. Her praying flattened out into a mere delirious caterwauling, like that of a tomcat on a petting party.

I describe the thing as a strict behaviorist. The lady's subjective sensations I leave to infidel pathologists. Whatever they were they were obviously contagious, for soon another damsel joined her, and then another and then a fourth. The last one had an extraordinary bad attack. She began with mild enough jerks of the head, but in a moment she was bounding all over the place, exactly like a chicken with its head cut off. Every time her head came up a stream of yells and barkings would issue out of it. Once she collided with a dark, undersized brother, hitherto silent and stolid. Contact with her set him off as if he had been kicked by a mule. He leaped into the air, threw back his head and began to gargle as if with a mouthful of BB shot. Then he loosened one tremendous stentorian sentence in the tongues and collapsed.

By this time the performers were quite oblivious to the profane universe. We left our hiding and came up to the little circle of light. We slipped into the vacant seats on one of the rickety benches. The heap of mourners was directly before us. They bounced into us as they cavorted. The smell that they radiated, sweating there in that obscene heap, half suffocated us. Not all of them, of course, did the thing in the grand manner. Some merely moaned and rolled their eyes. The female ox in gingham flung her great bulk on the ground and jabbered an unintelligible prayer. One of the men, in the intervals between fits, put on spectacles and read his Bible.

All this went on for an hour or so. The original penitent, by this time, was buried three deep beneath the heap. One caught a glimpse, now and then, of her yellow bobbed hair, but then she would vanish again. How she breathed down there I don't know; it was hard enough ten feet away, with a strong five-cent cigar to help. When the praying brothers would rise up for a bout with the tongues their faces were streaming with perspiration. The fat harridan in gingham sweated like a longshoreman. Her hair got loose and fell down over her face. She fanned herself with her skirt. A powerful old gal she was, equal in her day to obstetrics and a week's washing on the same morning, but this was worse than a week's washing. Finally, she fell into a heap, breathing in great, convulsive gasps.

I am glad to hear of all the good many pentecostals have done. And I agree religion should be left out of the general scrutiny of candidates.

But - if someone does something so extreme as to talk in tongues, I'd like to know in what other respects he or she might be different from what you normally call common sense. And how does it work? Can it appear at any time, for instance during a crisis or a state visit?

Also, Sarah Palin believes Alaska is God's country, that the world is going under some day soon and that everyone will go to Alaska - how will that reflect in her political work? Will a war with Russia be OK, since we are all going to die anyway and she and her congregation gp to heaven?

What makes me suspicious of these emo-religious types is that they put up different facades, depending on whether they are in secular or same-faith company. This is particularly true of those among them who make it to public life. When you see Palin in videos of here speaking in her church, an entirely different side of her emerges. The religious side speaks as if evergything she thinks is ordered by the world beyond. Now, as a secular voter, my suspicion is that when she gets to office, she may make decisions that is driven by her dogma, not buy careful analysis of the situation at hand.

As an example, take "Creation Science". In regular science, the hypothesis is not much more than an educated guess that needs to be proven in the lab. In creation science, the hypothesis is alreay believed by heart. The "science" part is only window dressing. What would a beliver do if the lab test contradict the "hypothesis"? I am a 100% sure the beliver is much rather reject the test result than the faith. That is the same nonsence that the emo-religious politician would do if the correct solution to a situation contradict their pre-believed notions.

"a segment of society that seeks the common good."

This "Segment" has no interest in the common good.
They regard the rest of us as "Bad Americans".

try again.

If you believe stupid and insane things about magic elves and witches and demons, you deserve mockery. Your beliefs are not worthy of respect: they are wrong and evil.

We are in a pathetic situation with corrupt and politicians use fears and beliefs of the naive to mislead them. The Sarah Palin types are delusional about their "knowing" the will of "God" and wanting to impose it unto others, for their political benefit, of course. Church SEPARATE from State is the law, and it IS NOT being respected. In fact, it is being ABUSED by the likes of Sara Palin, who are blind themselves, and yet they want to lead others. These "debates" about "faith", "God", "Christianity" is nothing more than a farce of hypocrites who want to sell "snake oil" to fools.

I believe that Pentecostalism deserves a chance to properly explain itself, as you have very succinctly done. I think Dr. Wood has responded appropriately against the image that Oliphant's cartoon creates that may be perceived by many as a slur on Pentecostalism itself.

However, a much larger issue is ignored here: the Republican Party has specifically positioned Sarah Palin as the "religious" half of a presidential ticket, and her pentecostal background is readily touted by them - for what purpose? To regian the evangelical vote that the Right wing has relied upon since 1980.

A short explanation of Palin's participation in the Assemblies should be adequate for this evangelical constituency, and the sound byte of "speaking in tongues" is deemed sufficient to the uninitiated that her "hotline to God" is secure for Republicans once again.

This conniving posture may appeal within a party divided over McCain as a morally accpetable choice to lead America, but in reality is pandering and exposes the stereotypes that guide the party in coalescing its religious base. And it's hypocritcal for them to even hint that God would approve of such motives - there's your gibberish, of which "they're much given to that, sir".

It sounds very nice, Rev. Salguero, but you know, the religious right in this country has functioned as the tail wagging the dog for a long time, and it hasn't benefited the country much. While our education system crumbled and our children sank to 24th in the developed and semi-developed world in math and science, and our economy was run to benefit billionaires, all the religious right in this country screamed about was abortion and gay marriage and gun rights.

Frankly, I think that someone who habors religious beliefs that insist that she accept that the world was created about 6,000 years ago in 7 days (oh, never mind those pesky carbon dating techniques!), should have those beliefs brought into question when running for office.

Because those beliefs indicate stupidity, at a minimum, and at a maximum, a complete inability to cope with anything but black and white in a mostly grey world. We've had that kind of vision at the top for the last eight years and you can see what it's gotten us.

When someone, as Palin did, uses the term "God's will" to justify anything from oil pipelines to wars, bells should go off. People who invoke the will of God are usually getting ready to absolve themselves of any personal moral quibbles about questionable behavior. That's what the Spanish Inquisition always said: "It's the will of God."

I'm really sorry, but no one, NO ONE, who believes in Creationism and wants it taught alongside one of the great planks of western science in our children's biology classroom belongs near the White House, let alone inside it. That's not my only objection to Ms. Palin, but it will serve as emblematic.

People certainly do have a right to hold stupid beliefs. Sarah Palin can home-school her children and teach them anything she wants. I certainly won't interfere with her.

But when she is running for Vice President of the country behind a 72-year-old man who has had cancer and who, actuarily speaking, will likely be dead within four years, those beliefs require examination.

Sarah Palin's religious beliefs indicate a temperament that is nakedly and dangerously unsuited for leading a huge, and hugely pluralistic country, in hugely complex times. No one is taking away her right to hold those beliefs. But you are painfully naive if you thinkg those beliefs have nothing to do with her political suitability for high office.

I fully agree with the comment from FUDDANABI.

I spent six years going to Assembly of God and discovered that most members prefer feeling God’s present more than understanding the Bible and Christ, and they seem unable to take a historical view of any biblical concept. I noticed a common attribute is they use emotional rational, rather than critical thinking for making decisions. As such they are a rather unstable bunch of people, meaning their judgment is unpredictable.

While there are many good Pentecostals, I uncovered many of whom uses the Pentecostal experiences to cover their hidden lifestyle (i.e. cheating on spouses was the most common I found). They feel vindicated by the so-called Holy Spirit.

All "Christians" are not the same. Palin is the Trojan horse of the American fundamentalist Christian equivalent of the Taliban. There is no sect of Christianity that is more dangerous to our national security than the AG and their derivatives. Vote for her at our collective peril.

bawitdaba da bang a dang diggy diggy diggy

Pentecostals are good people. The issue is Ms.Palin:

Her church preaches Jews are killed by Arabs because Jews are not saved.
-She fires people she does not like and hires her friends.
-Todd will not testify. They are using the protection given to governor for her husband!
-Used wedge issues to back stab her father like person to become mayor of Wasilla
-Uses disrespectful zingers, like a night club comedian
-Makes rape victims pay for tests
-She is a setback to women's progress

She is a bad advertisement for Pentecostals.

"Whether a candidate speaks in tongues or not is not indicative of how he/she will govern nor is it relevant to his/her role as a national leader"...
What planet are you from?
Anyone who speaks in tongues is a whacko, and is CLEARLY not fit to hold office.
How do you think it's even OK to defend this position?

fr response to jane:

>...None of us have a direct line to God and I don't know of anyone who has said that. If you no someone like this, congratulate them and ask for proof. ...

Little miss ice queen palin sure acts like she has a direct line to God. She is completely inexperienced for anything but dogcatcher, and I'm not sure she could pass the test for that!

lumlumlumlum, mababa, mababa, beezle, beezle, shamana, shamana...

Here's the problem with your hypothesis. If you go to Youtube and other video web sites you will see tape after tape of Sarah Palin within the last three years at her church saying extremely disturbing things:i.e. God wants me to be president (this while she was Mayor of Wasilla for heavens sake), the laying on of hands will vanquish my enemies etc. I am sorry, but we have just driven the United States into hell at the hands of another person who believed his power to do what ever he wanted came directly from God- not from the people who elected him or the constitution. I am sorry, but as Americans we are stewards of our Country and we have stood by silent way to long to allow any further destruction of our country by people who through horrifying hubris deign to know the will of God,And don't even get me started about how the pastors Sarah meets with regularly and supports believe that Alaska will be one of the collection points during Armegedon. When we start getting "people of faith" involved in politics who do not come encased with terrifying world views, then your comments have more merit.

Oh, lighten up. Sarah Palin received a blessing against witchcraft a couple of years ago.

I am SO relieved.

Check it out:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/the-witch-hunter-anoints_b_128805.html

I agree with Rev. Salguero's that a candidate's prayer, worship or spiritual practice has no bearing on her ability to serve the public in an executive capacity. Belief is also no disqualification for office.

Nonetheless, secular voters may be rightly concerned to ask what impact a candidate's religious views may have on domestic and foreign policy decisions. Many Bible-based attitudes towards schooling, science education, foreign policy in the Middle East, and even the environment, are at stark odds with those in the broader secular and global communities.

Moreover, we all have the right to expect that those occupying the highest offices will respect all perspectives, not only those those of their supporters. The rigid, intractable nature of much religious dogma makes it a poor model for governing, as we see in other countries that mix religion and politics.

The Republican party has no more of a litmus test on it's candidates than any other party. They obviously have beliefs that they want a candidate to follow, but this is normal. Can people help it if they are generally of one mindset. That is the purpose of party unity.

Your view of Christians seems very limited. None of us have a direct line to God and I don't know of anyone who has said that. If you no someone like this, congratulate them and ask for proof. Look for people with a more realistic view of talking to God. They predominate those of faith. You can't stereotype all people for a few you've met.

God does indeed guide us though. But only those who truly seek him. Look through the posts and you will see many who don't. There are others who are less than sincere in looking to God for guidence but this is hard to discern. Finding people that are truely looking for God's guidence is what we are all doing.

I actually think the Pentecostals were the only Americans that came out of the Borat movie looking respectable -- they fully accepted him. The driving instructor also came out pretty well.

Mr. Salguero,

It is common knowledge that the right wing of the republican party does indeed employ a litmus test on candidates. They only want candidates that are pro-life, anti-gay, and they especially desire candidates which they feel have a direct line to God. This is why so many social conservatives are going rabid over Sarah Palin. So let's call it like it is first.

Second, many churches in this country have made it a mission to support republican candidates. In fact, many Christians believe that Democrats are the anti-Christ.

I know many Pentecostals who believe this. It is refreshing that you are open but the fact remains, most congregants involved with the Pentecostal and Charismatic faith are not.

I could care less that you speak in tongues. That is not the issue. The reasons that Pentecostalism are brought to light are strictly political. I respect all religions. But when I see a political party embrace a religion that believes many people are not worthy of God's love, I cannot accept that. I believe in the separation of church and state for that very reason. And it frightens me to see people vote for republicans because they think they have a direct line to God when in fact, we all have a direct line to God. This belief creates divisiveness and polarization which is at an all time high in this country right now. Much of it is because of this kind of zealousness and fervent belief system that places one above the other. It's a with us or against us attitude. And it does nothing but bring this country down.

Religion is very personal and it should stay that way. Please let's keep it out of government. Worship as you will. But remain open to all religions and spiritual beliefs. We are all searching and no one has the answer. Not Palin, not McCain, not Bush ... Pick the candidate who will promote diversity and religious freedom for all and will seek to heal, not divide us, based on religious belief. It's about intent, not power over another.

I was raised Assemblies of God and I've got to say that any politician from that school of thought and faith scares me utterly.

Close-minded and anti-intellectual doesn't begin to describe that mind-set.

Take it from someone who went through 18 years of it.

Give me a break. These people are moronic freaks period.

There is an important distinction between tolerance vs. acceptance, and personal vs. private. Navigating those difference is what can be tricky.

I attempt to be tolerant of religious beliefs diametrically opposed to my own -- including those which otherwise seem untrue or bizarre. This is especially the case, and it is easier, when such beliefs remain mostly private and are not promoted or otherwise projected into the public domain.

However, I cannot remain totally non-judgmental of those who hold such beliefs -- especially when those beliefs are actively promoted in recruitment of others, or when they are projected into the public and especially the political realm. Once that happens, I think there is not only the right but the obligation to express whether or not one finds these beliefs credible, positive, potentially harmful, ridiculous, etc.

To suggest that we can and should consider one's political beliefs, or their cultural and moral attitudes in assessing the essential wisdom, balance, character, and judgment of a person, but that we should draw the line and not do the same with regard to that person's religious beliefs seems not only inconsistent, but impossible in actual application given how interconnected most people's belief systems are.

At that level, I make little to no distinction between religious and political beliefs. And when the two are meshed, it blurs the lines even more. So it seems to me that Oliphant's cartoon does no more or less than respond to religious beliefs or practices, which are with Palin's candidacy and open advocacy of such beliefs, now very much in the public domain, and an essential part of the whole person that needs to be assessed. His commentary is pointed, satirical, and appropriate.

Did Sarah Palin force rape victims to pay for their own rape kits, striking rape kits from the municipal budget, because the kits contain emergency contraception aka the morning-after pill? If she did, then her religious views do indeed affect her governance. Also, reports from Alaska say consistently that Palin's attitude toward her political enemies was vengeful and retributive. I once knew of a Pentecostal woman who conspired with the preacher to shame at the altar, before the assembled congregation, her sixteen year-old daughter---for using makeup. That act was indeed vengeful and retributive. I see a connection. Pentecostalism is not a mainstream religion---just last night a video was shown on TV of a ceremony in which Sarah Palin was being proofed against witchcraft by her pastor and two others---and I very much do not want a Pentecostal leading my country.

Hummana, hummana, boogity, boogity, lululululu...

Well said and much needed, Pastor Salguero. I had not seen the cartoon until viewing via the link here. It is pretty dispicable mockery. As a Democrat and as a Charismatic believer, I deeply appreciate your comments. Again well said!

Reverend:

Saying American Pentecostals have overwhelmingly voted and fought to deny health care, old age benefits, and basic dignity to gay Americans isn't a stereotype. It's a fact.

Once you advocate for hate and mistreatment of others that way, all bet are off.

If Governor Palin's religious beliefs and practices were truly private, then I might agree more with you that they don't matter. But given her spiritually immature and regrettable tendency to inject God, and her direct understanding of God's sovereign will, into political debates and decision-making, she makes her religious beliefs and practices relevant to her governing and to the campaign.

Americans have every right to consider whether Governor Palin's religious beliefs and practices as they affect her political decision-making render her unfit, in their eyes, for best fulfilling the responsibilities of the office of vice-president or president.

Rev. Salguero,

I agree that one's religion should not be an issue almost without exception I seperate a persons faith from their ability to serve the public.

There IS the exception, however.

If someone has stated publicy that they believe the end times will occur during their lifetime (one of the manifestations of their faith), then it is appropriate to question that candidates commitment to addressing very long term issues such as the national debt, global warming, etc.

And Pentecostals, along with other "good Christians", don't engage in stereotypes. Like, let's say stereotypes of non-Christian faiths, or of other races?

All of you hypocrites should just go cry in your holy beer.

If, as you believe, there should be no litmus test regarding a person's belief system in seeking office then why is it still impossible in America for an atheist to become president?

From Harry Truman, A Southern Baptist

"[The Baptists] do not want a person to go to shows or dance or do anything for a good time. Well I like to do all those things and play cards besides. So you see I am not very strong as a Baptist. Anyhow I don't think any church on earth will take you to heaven if you're not real anyway. I believe in people living what they believe and talking afterwards.... (From a letter to Bess Wallace, March 19, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)

The Bush Doctrine:

"If there's some way to screw it up, I'll find it."

Rev. Salguero,
Your points are well-taken. Unfortunately the demonizing of Obama for an association with Rev. Wright opened the flood gates. Palin's acceptance of Pastor Muthee's "witchcraft doctine" cries for equal time.

It is practically impossible to separate a person's religious beliefs from their political ones. It defines them. It does not however define everyone who shares their religion because even within that structure, the beliefs vary. On that your comments are right on.

To all posts:

I appreciate all the attention and feedback this blog has drawn. Let me clear up several assumptions that have been repeatedly made. The article was advocating a ceasing of caricature of any group, in this case Pentecostals. I would decry the same treatment of Muslims, Jews, atheists, pagans, etc. Moreover any community gay (GLBT), Black, Latino, Asian, deserves not to be stereotyped.

I am not endorsing Governor Palin this article is about a larger issue. Namely, the caricaturing of any group does not contribute to civil dialogue that promotes the common good. There are an increasing number of Pentecostals who are not identified with any of the extremes that have been mentioned in the posts. This is the point; once you put Pentecostals in a stereotype it prohibits the opportunity to create solidarity with those Pentecostals who may be more philosophically in line with your normative commitments. For example, a dear colleague, Princeton University alumn, and the Religious Director of Senator OBama's campaign, Joshua DuBois, was an associate pastor of a Pentecostal church before joining the campaing. Mr. Dubois is just one of many progressive Pentecostals

Second, I have said elsewhere theology and worldviews are freed to be questioned because they inform everyone's politics. I believe that dominion theology and nihilistic apocalypticism all should be examined because they lead to dangerous public policy. Also questions about pro-choice and pro-life, same sex marriage and civil unions, ecological stewardship are also fair game. All these questions can and should be asked without lowering the public dialogue to stereotypes and caricatures that nurture demonizing rhetoric. I agree, many religious people are guilty of this very type of stereotyping. Still, should we not call people to a higher plane of dialogue.

Moreover, I also believe that all candidates, including Governor Palin, should respond to tough questions by the press. The point here is simple assumptions and caricatures do not allow us to move into informed decisions and creative solutions for the common good.

Anybody who actually believes in the existence of a supreme being is a few cards short of a full deck. Applies equally to all faiths.

Pentecostals are a cultish and judgmental sect. They despise faiths and behaviors that are different from theirs. They foment hatred of Jews, Gays, abortion etc. No right wing religious conservative should hold high office in a country where freedom comes first for every individual and where discrimination is abbhorrent.

Clinton calls Sarah Palin 'gutsy ... real'

There are three kinds of people in the world: those who are born to question, those who are created to believe, and those like Sarah Palin who exist to manipulate.

Article 6 of the U S Constitution says, in part:
........ but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Though you say "I'd love to see the county move beyond litmus test and caricatures and get these candidates to talk about present crisis and substantive issues. Is it not time that we honor the U.S. public with a more substantive national conversation?"

Unfortunately, the ultra-conservative members of our electorate have hotly and repeatedly demanded such a test in their candidates, in violation of our Constitution.

I'm sure y'all are familiar with Hosea 8:7.

Would you care for some cheese with your whine?

It should be an issue whether or not a potential vice-president thinks they can "speak in tongues". It shows a bias towards the illogical and an unwillingness to understand truth due to one's subjective speculation. Palin only needs to search google or find a book on "speaking in tongues" to realize they are not language. Linguistics have already covered this and her subscription to it shows she is less educated than other potential candidates. Everyone should question the religious/ spiritual beliefs of anyone who seeks a leadership position since it gives a superior insight into their thinking processes, potential for civil rights violations and decisions based in religious ideology instead of logic. Superstitions, such as "speaking in tongues" lead people to think illogically, and illogical thoughts lead to things like the crusades, or witch hunts, or racism. Free thinkers don't subscribe to illogic and cannot justify, nor commit these crimes. Think before you vote and remember everything matters, religion does not have a freedom from criticism, if anything it should be criticized more than anything else since it claims to know more than anything else without ever supporting it with facts or evidence of any kind.

Hmmm, "me wonders" what would happen if Sarah P got "pagan" all of a sudden??? Nukes as Maypoles? Covens instead of the UN? Voodoo dolls to control Islam?? Witch doctors in charge of the AMA?? And a little black magic to cure the ills of the Wall Street??

And if Sarah P flunks out, we have Paganplace in the wings ready to lead us to Summerland!!

For more about Sarah P see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin

Unfortunately, Paganplace's political positions could not be found on Google or in any other media reference.

Cause, hey. I *know* you Pentecostals have always been *right there on the cutting edge of civil liberties whenever anyone has any doubts whatsoever about the humanity of any of our fellow Americans, however we may exercise our unalienable rights.

I knew you'd understand.

Have her speak, Reverend. I'm sure we can clear this up.

I mean, why speculate, anyway.... Just cause she may be sworn to Dominionist leaders who want to overthorow America, Reverend, doesn't mean we should be in any way at the mercy of our *guesses* what her politics are, right?

I mean, Reverend, I'm sure with all your great righteousness, ou could walk right on up and *adk* her what she has in mind for folks like me or the average American taxpayer she so mercilessly is being grilled on never having met before.

I mean, it'd be unfair of us to judge, since we hardly know her. Surely she knows us that much better. Bid her speak. It'll work out,

Right?

And if you feel all ill-used by this, Revered Salguero.. Do go ahead and ask Ms Palin what she has in mind for lil ol' me.

Don't take too long, though, it appears someone's demanding your loyalty the sooner.

Of course, I can't help it. I'm just a wee bit prone to be 'moved by spirit.' Never did manage to be in a position to prosecute myself in order to be sure I was the only person who could investigate me, though.

Sucks to be 'persecuted,' don't it? And I can't even deal my own records.

Did I mention the Lyndon LaRouche?

Does anyone remember who that *is*

Mr. Salguero?

Or am I stereotyping *him* too?

Along with Palin's preachers.

I mean, hey, this is someone who chose to pose for an official portrait with a newsletter from Lyndon LaRouche on her desk.

I'm figuring Pentecostals maybe oughtn't to be wondering if they're getting a hard time, so much as looking who they were told to *back* so unquestioningly.. Out of nowhere.

Seriously.

I mean, seriously, Terra. Not only do I know what the Bush Doctrine is, and predicted the inevitable results of this arrant and willful *screwup,* but I'm just proud enough of my intellect that I think I could possibly game out this evil and losing strategy for a couple decades... I really think I could rip some sh** once the idealistic gloves are off.

Given how Bush set up the board, and bollixed the whole thing up, I think I could 'win.' Wouldn't make anyonge *happy* or be worth living through, never mind leaving to our kids, but, I hold that conceit.

I see spirits and all manner of things, and haven't actually been wrong yet.

If someone said, 'Hey, PP, have the red phone,' I' say, 'What, are you out of your *mind?*

Palin has a weekly dose of propaganda and incoherence and *doesn't* know what she's blindly supporting.

She still thinks it's Jesus and Wasilia, Alaska.

If she ever had a true vision in her life out of all that, she ain't acted it.

This columnist says, 'You're stereotyping Pentecostals,' but... We know she thinks the US Government is a tool of 'Satan' and that she thinks after her weekly doese of incoherence, that *we're* this character's 'handmaidens.'

Meanwhile, she proposes to perpetuate 'doctrines' she cannot even *elucidate.*

It's not about her being 'Pentecostal.' It's about her being *totally removed* and no one caring.

"That Sarah Palin speaks in tongues does not bother me."

Sure bothers *me.* When *I'm* having fricking visions, for one, I expect it a) works out, and b) isn't my job to handle the nukes in the process.

*Gods,* no Terra. And this aint about random communication disorders. Whaterver she does in her Church, she can do this. She has a right to, too. This does *not* mix with a hotline to Strategic Air Command. Just don't. Period.

ok,
http://wpcomics.washingtonpost.com/client/wpc/po/2008/09/09/

there it is.

What's wrong with that cartoon? She's a cartoonish character, in fact a caracterture of the cartoonish nutjobs who think the randomly generated nerve signals to their insipid mouths are actually spewing intelligible ... anything.

Do you Christians really want to defend these people as sane?

That Sarah Palin speaks in tongues does not bother me. That she has a pastor praying over her to keep Witchcraft away from her, tells me she believes in the old inquisition's definition of Witchcraft and we Pagans would not have religious equality in her administration, bothers me.

That she would lie and try to destroy a man's repuatation to win an election, that bothers me.

That she has a son that was given a choice of prison or Army for cutting break lines in school buses..and a daughter that is pregnant, and who is being made to marry the baby daddy...that she has a 5 month old baby that seems to be cared more by his older sister then his mom..that is being drug from pillar to post into all kinds of enviroments to loud noise and germs...that bothers me...she should not dare mention Family Values...Republicans are such hypocrites.

She is ignorant of any kind of knowledge about what it takes to be president...She says she did not blink before answering yes..she would love to be VP. Who would not blink? Anyone that knew anything would blink...only being downright dumb would cause you to be so careless to not blink or think.

She has alot in her past behavior that bothers me...being paid to sleep in her own home...spending over 300 nights in her own home in less then 21 months ( the legislature wore pins ..where is sarah?)...and being paid for it. Lieing about the plane, the chef, the bridge, troopergate, the librarian, can she tell the truth? Going to a church that believes in Jews for Jesus? And you can pray gays straight...sheesh..she is just unworthy and the scam that McCain was pulling did not work...

Hey, where is this cartoon?

I agree, let us not stereotype the speaking-in-tongues Pentecostals.

Instead let us portray them as they really are: nuts.

How many Christians in this forum today talk about "those people" when gathered together at each other's homes? How many of you think these people are nuts?

I suppose it's like politics and sports teams, you have to vote for your side even when they suck. But consider the tarring you take for defending these freaks.

In this time of messed-up credit ratings, CCNl, you'd best not be joking in that venue.

Meanwhile, you who is the enemy of all 'pretty talky wingie thingies.'

Have you looked at this candidate you seem to back?

Cause 'Summerland' is no kind place for those who need for too much 'deflawing.'

Hmmm, "me wonders" what would happen if Sarah P got "pagan" all of a sudden??? Nukes as Maypoles? Covens instead of the UN? Voodoo dolls to control Islam?? Witch doctors in charge of the AMA?? And a little black magic to cure the ills of the Wall Street??

And if Sarah P flunks out, we have Paganplace in the wings ready to lead us to Summerland!!

Well I have to disagree with the writer. ZblocnnodeKastagichin, Blasphantilly>
Crabstank which a skimp frackazona.
I hope you will all agree with me on that.

Seriously. 'Stereotype?' Who needs a 'stereotype?

She's living proof that she can't make abstinence only education work in *her own family,* but still wants to impose that ignorance on the rest of our kids, will they or not?

No stereotype required.

This is the woman who *brought herself up on ethics charges* so that only people she hand-picked could have access to evidence.*

Is someone picking on her?

Maybe she's accusing an innocent woman.

Or maybe she's so mixed up in corruption she thinks she's justified.

Stereotypes?

No need.

Let's meet the woman.

Not the idea of her.

Maybe.. they want to blindly assume she's 'there kind of people...' as long as she doesn't *speak.*

But it's unfair to expect a mere candidate for the highest office in the land to be *prepared* to answer the corporate press, even after a mere month of intensive Roveian coaching.

Look what happened last time...

She said she'd enforce the Bush Doctrine on other countries, with the full might and machoness of our military, and ... Couldn't tell us what that is.

Poor woman. Don't pick on her. We 'po wittle feminists' can't take it.

And Pentecostals of course, are being 'stereotyped' if they ever actually question Palin on what she really believes ought to be done with the 'unrighteous.'

Well,

Since neither McCain NOR Palin will speak to the American people

on tv, in news conferences, McCain now even wants to CANCEL the Friday night presidential debate. Unheard of...

maybe the most we'll get is Palin talking in tongues. All we're gonna get. The McCain doesn't trust her toopen her mouth. Wise they are, but it ain't good for democracy, is it.

Well, be a little beneficent!

Since neither McCain nor his l'il dolly Palin
will speak anywhere, or face audiences or the press'
or now, even aa schedulaed debate...

perhaps we should be glad that she at least talks in tongues. That's apparently the best we're gonna get.
What has this country becomes. Coven of freaks and liars and lunatics. Some of the best examples found on "ON FAITH" We will survive?

Pentecostals are insane. I only wonder - were they insane first, or did their religion make them insane?

Sort of a chicken and the egg question I suppose, let's rephrase it that way:

Which came first, Pentecostal or Insanity?

Well.......maybe

Except, in situations in which we see film, as we

saw tonight, of a pentecostal preacher laying hands on our girl PAlIN, warding off WITCH CRAFT.

There's no other interpretation about it.There it was...8 O'clock hour. MSNBC. It'll be all over by now.

This is the same pentecostal minister who "outted" a woman for being a witch and causing traffic accidents.

AGAIN, BOYS AND GIRLS, the film of this pentecostal type laying hands onf PALIN and
warding off Witchcraft aired on NBC cable tonight.
THERE's not doubt about it. It's very available.

Now let's hear more from the writer above on ON FAITH.

I was apalled by the cartoon.

Hmmm, "me wonders" what would happen if Sarah P got "pagan" all of a sudden??? Nukes as May Poles"? Covens instead of the UN? Voodoo dolls to control Islam?? Witch doctors in charge of the AMA?? And a little black magic to cure the ills of the Wall Street??

Vote: COLD TURKEY for Financial Institutions! The Survival of the Fittest Applies Too!!!

REMEMBER Ye History, Ye Jury & Everybody’s Biz:

The FEDERAL RESERVE (a Robber Baron Bank SYSTEM, not Secular!), was Created on HASTE on Christmas-Eve 1913! The Federal Reserve is Contrary to the U.S. Constitution that Lets CONGRESS, not Federal Reserve’ to Create Money!

Hark Democrat Party, Do not Make Haste; else waist!

Do Not Go For That 'REPUBliCAN" ROBBER-BARON & CAPTAINS of INDUSTRY" Con Job & Satanic trick , word NOW! NOW NOW!NOW!

No No No It Could Wait!!!!!!!!!! DO-NOT RUSH!

IT's Not an E-M=E=R=G=E-N-C-Y!!!!

IT's Not an E-M=E=R=G=E-N-C-Y!!!!

IT's Not an E-M=E=R=G=E-N-C-Y!!!!

VOTE: NO NO NO Bail-Out NOW! It Could Wait January 2009, not 2008!

VOTE: NO NO NO Bail-Out NOW! It Could Wait January 2009, not 2008!

VOTE: NO NO NO Bail-Out NOW! It Could Waite January 2009, not 2008!

---

The Federal so called CREDIt-System' Exageraters, is a FEDERAL RESERVER (tantamount to an ERON trick via the Chairman ben Bernanki (Bush Evangelical Fronts) & the U.S. Treasury Polson [Bush Evangelical Fronts!)

ScHAME McCain! ScSHAME Trying To Get-out of thgis F R i D A Y's Debate, via Rush to Bail-out his "FRIENDS"! (not Our Friends!)!!!!! Tryin to Get Out of a one to one genuine (religio Free) Debate!!!

WAiT for The Bail, if any, AFTER the E L E C T i O N!

Where Are Ye EVANGELiCALS?? Rick Warren, Robertson, Hagee, Huckabees et al???? We Are Waiting. STOP HiDiNg Evangelicals etc.!

Thank-A-ScHame!

Let's put it this way, 'Pentecostals.'

You flatter yourselves to figure anyone has a *clue* what you get up to.

It's not a 'stereotype' to ask what your darling Palin is about when she won't grant an interview.

That is, if you like that sort of 'Speaking Without Making Sense' sort of thing.

Why 'Speak in Tongues' when we haven't yet tapped out this one? ;)

Point was, Hannah, that people may have a religious practice... This doesn't automatically qualify them to control the arsenal. Sometimes, it in fact contraindicates the notion.

Take it from someone who can meet a moose *without* shooting them.

" Hannah:

"And the rest of what you said basically made no sense."

I know. But I ain't running for office, am I?

Paganplace...you have no idea what you are talking about.
I am Pentecostal, and I do not "dissociate" nor do I speak in tongues because of the scripture you brought up.
Pentecostals speak in tongues because the Bible says "with a stammering lip and an unknown tongue I will speak to my people". Corinthians has a whole chapter devoted to it as well, saying that it is best to preach in church but that tongues is your own prayer language.
So get your facts straight before making ignorant comments.
And the rest of what you said basically made no sense.

Btw.

Moral of the story, my Christian friend?

You are not meant to lean on displays of 'power,' never mind lean on them.

Never mind 'govern' by them.

To wit, they like to get all keyed up and say 'The Holy Spirit' endorses certain Dominionist agendas if a preacher does something any con artist worth the name does a certain this-or-that.

ie. I know how to do that.

Scary thing is, I know how that can play out politically.

" Arminius:

Paganplace;

I have not the faintest flying F*** at a rolling donut what the hell you are talking about.

Farewell."

Well, they say 'ignorance is bliss.'

Also, apparently, that 'the divil is in the details.'

Details like who proposes to be holy and apocalyptic enough to have the charge of the nuclear arsenal as if still expecting 'Red Dawn.'

Certain very popular Pentecostal practices are very bad... if you like not having global thermonuclear war at the whim of a 'hockey mom.'

Paganplace;

I have not the faintest flying F*** at a rolling donut what the hell you are talking about.

Farewell.

Who needs caricatures, Terry?

How about the actual woman her actual self?

So, in a sense, it's really not about 'theological correctness' of Pentecostal practices, or whatever you'd like to call them. These experiences they put on are often channeled to externalized moralistic aggression, a problem of itself, ...but they're also easily suborned in ways it'd serve no one to elaborate on in my usual shamanic Penn&Teller way.

But they can be used defensively, let's say.

I use my 'powers' for good, but you know when they 'lay on hands' with the power of suggestion to make someone pass out? I have a nagging suspicion that if I can do that, any ass can, and someone just left a big back door open among their whole congregation.

Unless I'm just that holy, in which case, listen to me anyway. :)

If Sarah Palin does not want to be treated like a caricature, then she should stop acting like one. She demeans women and evangelicals with her hyopocrisy and lies. She is not what she professes to be. That leaves her open to the caricaturizing of which you speak. The caricatures may be distasteful to you, but as my wise old father once said, "If you don't want to get stoned, then quit handing mean people the stones!"

Hi, Arminius:

"Please permit me to lapse into Christianity for a little while." Oh, by all means. :) Actually, thinking of it in these terms is really what causes people to think it's OK for chief executives to be prone to dissociative states.

It's not OK. They could maybe run for vizier, but neither should someone who lapses into these incoherent states to fight 'Satan' in the persons of what she imagines other American citizens are, ...nor someone who was tuned up by Commies for five and a half years be put in these positions of power.

This isn't to dispute the religious practices nor say that McCain didn't make his 'sacrifices,' even if he got the name 'songbird' in the process.

If you want to be responsible about security and all, never mind claim to represent it, sometimes you just have to call yourself a compromised asset.

I've been tortured, myself, and I'm still digging that crap out. Doesn't matter what you think of it religiously, it still is something a responsible person would look at and recuse themselves from the nuclear codes about. Sucks, there it is.

It's not even about the religion, or the orthodoxy, (which, yes, is often all over the map)

It's about how compatible this kind of incoherent stuff is with responsible decisionmaking.

As in not. especially when you conflate the two.

"'Glossolalia' is a misnomer. The correct term should be 'xenoglossia', which is, of course, 'speaking in a foreign language'. This is borne out in Acts because of people hearing the Apostles speaking in their own native language."

More 'miracles' of course, but who was checking ID, anyway. :)

" In other words, the Holy Spirit instructed the Apostles in other languages, so that they might to out to other lands and be able to preach the Gospels there in a language (= 'tongue') that the natives would understand."

And, yeah, Fundies cut loose, spout gibberish and interpret it to mean whatever they wanted to think in the first place.

Doesn't matter what the Bible says. If someone's 'channeling' another tongue, the lingusitics check out, even if they're mangling Sanskrit. People mess themselves up on a social high and decide they've powerfully reinforced the idea Russia is the big problem, well, they're free to go shoot moose, but international politics and the most powerful military the wor'd's ever seen deserve a bit more than that kind of 'inspiration.'

I've been called a 'shaman.' I can see what they're trying to do.

But even if they succeeded, they should know better than expecting to command nukes. These things don't mix.

And if they were getting anything 'spiritual' about it that qualified them to rule, they should know that. Palin's a Dominionist. And she don't care.

That's an issue.

Pentecostals don't think much of me, especially in altered states, but they're just as human as the rest of us.

Special bypasses of Harvard law to rule on civil rights issues and foreign policy? Not so much. :)

Paganplace:

Please permit me to lapse into Christianity for a little while.

'Glossolalia' is a misnomer. The correct term should be 'xenoglossia', which is, of course, 'speaking in a foreign language'. This is borne out in Acts because of people hearing the Apostles speaking in their own native language. In other words, the Holy Spirit instructed the Apostles in other languages, so that they might to out to other lands and be able to preach the Gospels there in a language (= 'tongue') that the natives would understand.

In other words, Salguero's statement that "Pentecostals should not be dismissed as strange, uninformed or naive -- not even by political cartoonists" is utter horse poop. If the Pentecostals are not speaking in an actual human language - and REMEMBER IT - then they are only fooling themselves. They do not fool God, and that is the point of the cartoon in question. That cartoon now graces my computer as background.

Arminius

I mean, *no disrespect intended to Pentecostals,* (much) But seriously. As someone who has visionary experiences herself, feel free to play Merry Hel with your own corpus callosi, but show a *whit* of responsibility, and get over any notion this makes you qualified to come within a block of the nuclear launch codes.

Forget about it.

" glossolalia:

"Thanks for teaching me a new word, but no matter how you say it, speaking in tongues is hilarious and at the same time both scary and crazy""

Well, many societies have respected ecstatic visionary experiences. Few have had some insane notion of giving the same people the nuclear football and the banking system to be 'inspired' about.'

Monolithic 'systems of righteousness' do have their drawbacks, yaknow.

As in. 'What are you out of your ash tree? This is *not what that stuff is for, theocrats!' *

"There is great talk and commotion about public prayer. Most of it is not of any value. Prayer is a petition to God in whom all Christians pretend to believe. Jews, Mohammedans, Buddhists and Confucians worship the same God as the Christians say they do."

Is that so, CCNL? You who mocks all beliefs and won't often state your own Scriptural Christian one?

You who insistently don't get it?

Saying whose God is whose?

" He is all seeing, all hearing and all knowing. Nothing, not even the sparrow or the smallest bug escapes His notice.... No man needs an intermediary [to pray to God.]"

Except you, apparently, Great 'Deflawer?'

" This intermediary thing was an inheritance of the Roman Gods Pantheon when a Pontifex Maximus was used to placate all the gods...."

Actually, the Pontifex Maximus was the chief administrator of public temples, specifically, the Vestal Virgins. ....but otherwise, he was just an administrator of public temples, such as had a 'Pontifex.'

You love to imply it had something to do with the Gods and religion, unless it's *your* power, but this is actually the system the Empire appropriated when it tried to turn Christianity into a state religion.

You Christians claim you instantly enlightened this chuch and state power, but in fact, while few were 'thrown to the lions' apart from Nero's attempts to scapegoat someone for his mania, but a succession of Christian Emperors actually kept the bloodsport of the Coliseum going for three centuries, only stopping when they couldn't *afford it* anymore.

" I don't believe that an intermediary is necessary for me to approach God Almighty."

Really, CCNL. Could have fooled me. Demanding everyone 'deflaw' themselves before you cease your imperialistic prattle.

You got a problem with a Pontifex, consider that this was a *political appontment* in Rome, requiring absolutely no religious qualifications or devotions.

Thanks for teaching me a new word, but no matter how you say it, speaking in tongues is hilarious and at the same time both scary and crazy.

What I find truely interesting is how many people who are Pentacostal seem to think that because they have and exhibit desirable attitudes and actions; that therefore there is some causal relationship? Am I to understand that one can only be kind, considerate, caring, helpful, industrous, hard working, happy, supportive, etc. if I am Pentacostal? Frankly, I would be much more willing to believe you have these traits in spite of your Pentacostal relationship!

Pakistan's president tells Palin she is 'gorgeous'

How many Pentacostals would go ballistic if I took my first born out to the curb to sacrifice to God?
Clearly Wall Street is an abomination; the Heretics of the Street surely should be at least stoned...don't you think?
Republicans are clearly unwilling to help the poor; perhaps we should petition God to send the 7 plagues and kill their first born child for their blasphamous disregard for the words of Jesus?
Lying has always gotten God's nose our of joint; the Republican regime of George has possibly lied more than any previous cabal; shouldn't God send in a phophet to caution George to stand straight and honor God?
No one has been able to determine what language George has been speaking; is he perhaps speaking in tongues?
Since all Christian sects claim to be following the word of God as spoken in the Bible; how does one determine which cult has the true word of God and is therefore the possesser of the "real" Bible when there are so many different practices, interpretations, history, heirarchy, authority, and even "Good Book" chapters?
I always wondered, if the Bible is literally true; why do so many preachers and talk show hosts use those venerable words: "And that means ..." so often in their sermons and readings?
Lat time I checked; literal required no explanation .. it was what was said! Anothers words, "the shepard watched over his flocks" has NO other meaning than "the shepard was looking at his sheep"!

Response to Paganplace writes
"Her qualifications to be President come from her experience leading a state and a city as governor and Mayor."

You mean when as Mayor she illegally spent $50,000 redocarating her office?
Or her time as mayor when she built a sports complex, but forgot to see who owned the land and cost the city $20,000,000?
Or when she tried to get the local library to ban books?
Or fired the chief of police because he didn't vote for her?

Seems to me her public policies, abuse of power and sheer incompetance disqualifies her, weather she speaks in tongues or is a snake handler.

..."It's relatively easy for presidents to get on the outs with their denominations," says Wake Forest University Divinity School Dean Bill J. Leonard. It's hard to find a 20th-century president who didn't butt heads with some in his faith:

...Harry Truman, the first Southern Baptist in the White House, annoyed some in that denomination by spouting "hells" and "damns" in conversation. Jimmy Carter angered Baptist pastors by favoring abortion rights.

Truman: "I am by religion like everything else. I think there is more in acting than in talking. I had an uncle who said when one of his neighbors got religion strong on Sunday, he was going to lock his smokehouse on Monday. I think he was right from the little I have observed. (From a letter to Bess Wallace, February 7, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)

In my opinion people's religious beliefs are their own affair, and when I don't agree with >em I just don't discuss religion. It has caused more wars and feuds than money, and that seems a shame too. (From a letter to Bess Truman, October 16, 1939. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)

I'm not very much impressed with men who publicly parade their religious beliefs.... I've always believed that religion is something to live by and not to talk about. I'm a Baptist because I think that sect gives the common man the shortest and most direct approach to God. I've never thought the Almighty is greatly interested in pomp and circumstance, because if He is He wouldn't be interested in >the sparrow' alluded to in St. Matthew's Gospel. Religious stuffed shirts are just as bad or worse than political ones in my opinion. (From a handwritten autobiographical manuscript, 1945. President's Secretary's Files.)

[The Baptists] do not want a person to go to shows or dance or do anything for a good time. Well I like to do all those things and play cards besides. So you see I am not very strong as a Baptist. Anyhow I don't think any church on earth will take you to heaven if you're not real anyway. I believe in people living what they believe and talking afterwards.... (From a letter to Bess Wallace, March 19, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)

There is great talk and commotion about public prayer. Most of it is not of any value. Prayer is a petition to God in whom all Christians pretend to believe. Jews, Mohammedans, Buddhists and Confucians worship the same God as the Christians say they do. He is all seeing, all hearing and all knowing. Nothing, not even the sparrow or the smallest bug escapes His notice.... No man needs an intermediary [to pray to God.] This intermediary thing was an inheritance of the Roman Gods Pantheon when a Pontifex Maximus was used to placate all the gods.... I don't believe that an intermediary is necessary for me to approach God Almighty. (From a handwritten manuscript found in Truman's desk after he died. Post-Presidential papers.)

"I've never been of the opinion that Almighty God cares for the building or the form that a believer approaches the Maker of Heaven and Earth. ''when two or three are gathered together" or when one asks for help from God he'll get it just as surely as will panoplied occupants of any pulpit. Forms and ceremonies impress a lot of people, but I've never thought that The Almighty could be impressed by anything but the heart and soul of the individual. That's why I'm a Baptist, whose church authority starts from the bottom-not the top." (From a handwritten manuscript [check], April 13, 1952. President's Secretary's Files.)"

Pentacostals babble gibberish to themselves... Catholics think they drink a 2,000 year old guy's blood every Sunday... Jews think their God told them to avoid bacon... Muslims do butt-up prayers to a meteorite... Hindus think their statues enjoy being fanned. All religions have ludicrous ideas. What's the point?

You put your right hand in,
You put your right hand out.
You put your right hand in,
And you shake it all about.

You do the hokey pokey,
And you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about!

Of course the bible tells you to speak in tongues, do you have one of those redacted copies that comes from the CIA?

Christians who deny this are denying part of their own truth.

This is why the fringe retards in that group are mental, and why the outer wrapping group are also diseased.

Do you only want to believe the stuff that modern people believe, leaving out the primitive barbarian stuff that the lunatics believe?

Why believe any of it? It's just different layers in the same crock.

The cartoon made light of a particular practice of Pentecostals which most people find odd and which the practitioners claim is a more direct connection to God.

850 words later, the only defense you appear to have is, 'pay no attention to this particular practice because Pentecostals do lots of other good and sane things.'

May I suggest that (1) this is not much of a defense and (2) completely dodges the real issue, which is the sanity of that particular practice?

To comment on speaking in tongues when you know nothing about it, have never experienced it - is like telling us how to raise a child and you have never had a child or been around one.

If you believe in the Bible - it's all over it.

If you don't - that's your decision.

God gives us all the choose.

He said, I place before you life and death, blessing or cursing. But then he asked us to "choose life". He will never make us choose him and his word. He loves us all the same whether we choose him or not. The reason people get so upset is because deep in their hearts they know God exists, but because they are so deceived about his character that they have choosen not to choose to know him. If they know the truth about him. That he loves them and he is only concerned with their welfare, they would choose him and his word. He can fix all the things that are going wrong in your life. He has all the answers and can heal any afliction. I would be dead now if it was not for his goodness. Why people run from a loving God I will never know. God will respect their right to do so, and so should we. If someone loves you though, they still want you to do the right thing. We all need God and his word.

Having been born and raised United Pentecostal, which is considered by lay people to be one of the most strict branches of christianity, I am not a fan of people who go around proclaiming "I'm a Christian". The Bible, perhaps Mr Oliphant needs a reminder of that most precious of books, says to Let your light shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven. Mr. Oliphant needs to be educated about abusing other religions. This country was founded, in part, to escape from religious tyranny and for people to be allowed to worship as they please. I would certainly welcome Mr. Oliphant to visit my home church. He would be made to feel at home and might just receive a good old-fashioned "Pentecostal Blessing". Perhaps he's just too afraid to step inside the doors of a Pentecostal Church because of how he might be affected. Before a person bashes a religion they know nothing about, attend a service and find out what they're about, before you go off half-cocked and spouting a lot of garbage!

@kert

There is a difference between saying you "look to god for guidance" and saying that you believe that the bible is the word of god or that Jesus will return to earth within 10 years.
Looking to god for guidance is an abstract concept. Do you hear god speaking to you? Do you think you should protect Israel because it is the holy land?
Abraham Lincoln is on a completely different plane than Sarah Palin. Lincoln was not dogmatic, he didn't go to Church, and religion was probably not the driving force in his life and if it was, he certainly didn't say so.

And God said: "Let there be a war which will kill thousands of military and civilian alike. Let this war be completely based on half-truths and manipulated intelligence. Let this war be fought for oil and the chosen ones of the doofus on Pennsylvania Avenue. Let this was be fought in my name...by BOTH sides."

Yep, religion is ALWAYS the way to go.

To the post by RESPONSE TO MARYW,

Here's how Palin answers the softest ball question in her latest infomercial with Sean Hannity ...

Hannity:
What is our role as a country as it relates to national security?

Palin:
Yes. That's a great question, and being an optimist I see our role in the world as one of being a force for good, and one of being the leader of the world when it comes to the values that -- it seems that just human kind embraces the values that -- encompass life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that's just -- not just in America, that is in our world.

And America is in a position because we care for so many people to be able to lead and to be able to have a strong diplomacy and a strong military also at the same time to defend not only our freedoms, but to help these rising smaller democratic countries that are just -- you know, they're putting themselves on the map right now, and they're going to be looking to America as that leader.

We being used as a force for good is how I see our country.

-------------------------------------------------

Say What???? Talk about speaking in tongues!! Her answer is eerily similar to Miss South Carolina's nonsensical answer in the Miss America pagent last year (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww)
only this ain't your average beauty pagent. Unless you really admire George Bush's command of the English language, how can you possibly think Palin is VP material? In any case, the VP debate should be great entertainment, especially if you like hot chicks speaking in tongues!

Palin's beliefs aren't really different from any other President before Her. She believe that God guides Her as she makes decissions. She may be a little more vocal about it than others, but I have heard every President from Carter to Bush II admit to it also. In fact, I've never studied a president that didn't acknowledge God's guidence in some ways. I kind of doubt we had a President that didn't ackowledge God.

Lincoln probably has the best to say about it. He talks of how He feels conviction to do things but doesn't know why, but he never regrets going with the conviction. He also talks about being on "God's side". I think he definitely got it right about how God leads.

You can examine their faiths closer but they all believe in a God that guides. And that makes complete sense. If you believe that God is all powerful and all knowing then He should definitely be able to guide you. Personally, I would not appreciate someone who never looks to a higher power for guidance.

Of course no one condones someone who does evil in the name of God, but this has never been the case. Also keep in mind the President does not have absolute power. They are balanced by Congress and the Supreme court and voted into office by the people.

I think most Americans feel very comfortable with a person who looks for divine guidance. Maybe those who don't believe in God are jealous that more politicians don't believe as they do.

Right on Brother Salguero! How many Presbyterians, PCUSA, know that their Book of Order allows lifting of hands, dancing, clapping, embracing in joy and praise, laying on of hands
W-2.1005 and even, are you ready for this? "praying in tongues". W-5.4002.

Salguero,

You wrote: "To imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment."

You have the right to believe what you will and worship as you see fit.

You do not have the right to have people respect your beliefs. Many, many people in our society feel that speaking in tongues is just so much nonsense. And those of us who feel that way are of course going to make value judgements about those of you who have those beliefs, and part of that judgement is that we don't want someone that unhinged from reality to lead our nation.

You, coming from a tradition which elevates fantasy over reality, are of course going to have trouble accepting that others, even your erstwhile political allies, laugh at you behind your back.

The sanctimony of the phrase "good christians" with the implication that there are lesser, perhaps "bad" christians, undermines your last two paragraphs. Of course you'd say that, but we don't believe you.

Her qualifications to be President come from her experience leading a state and a city as governor and Mayor.

By the way, she isn't running for President she is running for Vice President. She may be President some day but not before John McCain. The roles are much different and her current job is to support the President, not create her own agenda in case McCain kicks the bucket. Palin is no different than any other VP candidate and I wish people would view her as such.

I understand that she will plenty of time to be interviewed and debate the opponents. This will come after she is fully aware of how McCain is handling issues. They need to be unified in how they approach issues.

The truth is that if Palin were constantly agreeing to interview, the media would just complain she's taking away from McCain. There is always something to complain about.

"It wouldn't be smart smart for her to get interviewed several times a day, when she hasn't even had time to review policy with McCain and other advisors."

This makes her qualified to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency *how* again?

Who needs to 'stereotype' Palin when her own beliefs and practices and positions aren't really that hard to find out about?

She's definitely connected to these radical 'Spiritual Warfare' Dominionist types.

No stereotyping necessary. She's way out there, but the same people trying to cast *suspicion* on Obama of some nefarious 'Black' agenda they imagine, don't seem concerned at all that *her* pastors are in fact considered dangerous apocalyptic right-wing heretics by the *Southern Baptists.*

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) ) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops killed(3,378 combat, 795 non-combat) and 87,643 – 95,664 Iraqi civilians
, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

3. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a potential fresh sense of civility is afoot.

4. NK has unfortunately slipped back into its terrorist habits by restarting its nuclear weapons’ operations.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

They are not being dismissed as strange, uninformed or naive. They are being labeled that, because that is what they are.

The most important label for them is dangerous and the author of this column is certainly that.

Give Palin a break. She has only been VP candidate for over a month and I already know more about her than any other VP after the election. It wouldn't be smart smart for her to get interviewed several times a day, when she hasn't even had time to review policy with McCain and other advisors.

Don't worry, you'll know everything about Palin before the process is over. Like her or hate her, the country is infatuated with her.

By the way, did you see the Chalie Gibson interview. That is the hardest interview I have every seen on foreign policy. I thinked they covered every situation in the world over the last 10 years. I would say we learned a lot about Palin in that alone and there will be plenty more.

I would love to here more about Biden and the actual presidential candidates too.

Isn't Jimmy Swaggert a Pentecostal preacher now?

Just sayin' ...

It seems like Rev. Salguero is making the assumption that all candidates must necessarily be Christians anyway. His argument is that we should not discriminate based on denomination that we should ignore the personal faith of a candidate.
What an absurd idea considering that candidates are constantly telling us how their faith influences their political decisions!
If a candidate says, his/her faith influences his/her political philosophy, I am going to want to know what this candidates faith is. What if John Hagee runs for president, should we ignore his belief that the world will end in his lifetime?
Religion should not qualify a person for office (litmus test) but there is nothing wrong with disqualifying a person based on faith.

22 WAYS TO BE A GOOD REPUBLICAN
September 24, 2008
1. You have to love perpetual war.
2. You enjoy living in constant fear.
3. You want to stay in Iraq whatever it takes; a year, ten years, a hundred years, a thousand years.
4. You have to support rape victims paying for test kits.
5. You have to support a ban on abortion to include cases of rape and incest.
6. You have to support state sponsored murder even though you love life and are told in church to turn the other cheek.
7. You have to believe in business welfare and corporate bailouts.
8. You have to believe that only the richest deserve health care.
9. You have to believe that background checks at gun shows should be allowed so that criminals can purchase guns.
10. You have to believe that citizens should have armor piercing bullets and assault rifles to defend themselves against police.
11. You have to believe that American corporations should be subsidized to send jobs overseas.
12. You have to believe that CEOs deserve millions of dollars for running their companies into the ground.
13. You have to believe that every state deserves a bridge to nowhere, not just Alaska.
14. You have to believe that covering nude statues is normal.
15. You have to ignore the scientific fact that global warming is occurring.
16. You have to agree that censuring and pressuring scientists is standard practice.
17. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is an act of God; sent to kill homosexuals.
18. You have to believe it is okay to teach children the fairy tale about the creation of the Earth and ignore scientific evidence to the contrary.
19. You have to believe that teaching children abstinence as sex education is the way to go; even though your 17 year old daughter is pregnant out of wedlock.
20. You have to believe that those who kill animals care more about them then those who want to protect them and their habitat.
21. You have to believe that John McCain’s campaign chief Rick Davis' firm, Davis Manafort, did not continually receive monthly payments in the $15,000 range from Freddie Mac until just recently.
22. You have to believe that John McCain will continue the fantastic job George W. Bush has done as president.
Ready to vote???

Fine, but when she starts handling snakes all bets are off...

Substantive discussion has not been to the fore and Gov Mrs Palin remains essentially unknown. She is being smothered by her campaign bosses and not credited with the ability to speak out for herself and her cause.

High time to unshackle the "little woman."

As is evident on this board we are all a bundle of memories, habits and beliefs.

Here's the deeper core of all religious teaching: The greatest disease is ignorance.

Anything you can know through the mind will ultimately be found to be false.

Look to the source of mind for truth. That's the true "savior". It won't be found in books, religious beliefs or dogma. You yourself have to become the source. Be open to the experience.

Vote wisely, too.

Sarah is a power hungry dim bulb that thinks her faith adds validity to her opinions and that we should defer to her because of this. Religion is how stupid people demand to inflict their foolish political ideas on everyone around them.

Just one question, folks: "Whaddya care?" If you're not pentecostal, conservative, religious, whatever. Great. Have a nice day. If someone is telling you to be pentecostal, conservaitve, or religious, it's their right. It's equally your right to tell them to buzz off.

Those of you who are saying "I respect anyone's rights to their own thoughts, but only when they stay out of the political realm" you're indicating that you're advocating privileges which you can extend or retract at your whim.

There is nothing in this country's laws or traditions that holds that a person can't express her own feeling about religion and participate in the electoral process. Nobody is forcing anyone to vote. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head to accept their religious view, or else. At least not in this country. Get a grip, people.

Everybody can and should worship anyway they want if it harms no one and I will defend that right any day. The objection to the pentecostals is not the way they pray but their involvement in politics and their use of the pulpit for political ends.

I will never forget during the 2004 election the slogan: We will vote for George W. Bush ans we will pray for John Kerry.

Pat Oliphant apparently does not have enough knowledge of Christianity to even be taken seriously in regard to the cartoon he posted, nor does the Washington Post. The thing that stands out more than making fun of Pentecostals is the fact that the cartoon shows God using profanity. Anyone who treats their creator so lightly neither knows him nor about him. Finally, thousands of Southern Baptists have been filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. This is not just a Pentecostal thing, rather it is biblical. I challenge Oliphant: Know your stuff and then draw!

Sen. Obama would agree that Pastor Salguero's article is on point. I think we've all forgotten that Sen. Obama is a self-professed Christian who believes in "speaking in tongues"

Q: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?
A: A count of the number of adherents.

Sarah's cult is a part of a larger cult, and we want to be tolerant of cults, right?

I say Mrs.Palin and Pentacostals are getting exactly what they deserve - they are reaping what they have sown - intolerance, ingnorance, fear, supersition and hatred. A person's religion and how they practice it has a direct correlation to how they will lead. I am terrified of having an extremist of any stripe in the most powerful postion in the world. Mrs.Palin is an end-time believer, she's intolerant of other faiths, rejects evolution, other life styles and is woefully ignorant of the world as whole. She is Bush/Cheney squared!

If you were take away the descriptor "religion" and had only her practices of "speaking in tounges", talking to god, beleive the end of the world was coming, hatred of gays - we would be putting her in a mental institution or be conviced she was in a cult.

Stop and consider the paranormal "tongues of fire" involvement in the Pentecost. It is right up there with belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies" aka angelsl/satans.

And the miracle of speaking foreign languages?? Give us a break!!!

This was a poor defense or explanation of Pentecostalism. I read that Pentecostals are everywhere and in all parts of society, but did not hear how or why they are "normal". While I agree we are all equal, and prejudice should not be tolerated, understanding Pentecostalism and its underpinnings should be reviewed and understood for what it is, not that it is just another harmless religion. But I did not read that in this article, just a flat statement that its no different from other religions.

Fortunately this is a blog and many have pointed out the issues with Pentacostalism, the mindset of its followers, the "theory", if you will, of the basis for its beliefs, etc. Everything I know about Pentacostalism, good and bad, I learned from the posters here, not from this article.

As an atheist I view anyone with a deep religious belief to be suspect on many levels. Bush seems to think invading Iraq was commanded by God. I do not want any more presidents to be so inspired by a little voice in their heads that carries such weight. We do not need a delusional president even if those delusions make him or her a nice person. We need one, believer or not, that understands reality and that we all live in the real world.

All we need is one video of a VP Sarah speaking in toungues to scare all of us. So the question is not one of religious freedom, its whether Sarah has a firm grip on reality. She probably has, but its a proper question when one is involved in a church that teaches delusion to the extent that faith can be proven, as speaking in tongues seems to attempt. Its a question that deserves an answer. The stakes are very high.

This is called inoculation. If the regular nutjob christians can get us to be tolerant of the unabashed nutjob fringe, maybe we won't be so intolerant of their insanity.

But I wonder if this will backfire for you "normal" christians. What will you think if these fringe elements start attracting the true retards in your congregation ... will you be so tolerant then?

Pastor Salguero's commentary is spot-on. This is not just about Pentecostals -- it is about those persons in the business of shaping our understanding of current events -- who should approach their work with sensitivity and accuracy when reporting or editorializing. This article should be framed and hung in every newsroom across America.

"Pentecostals should not be dismissed as strange, uninformed or naive -- not even by political cartoonists."

They should be dismissed as deranged, demented, and delusional ... and putting one a single drop of cyanide away from the presidency should be resisted.

Palin and the Pentecostals deserve the same respect they give others - intolerant derision.

No more years of these neochristian bullies hijacking America with their legacy of war, torture, wiretapping, economic destruction of the middle class, creationism and "absinence"

No more years of selfish power and greed all in the name of poor Jesus.

Mr. Salguero writes that, "To imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment." I will neither imply nor hint, I will say it explicitly: Anyone of any metaphysical persuasion or lack thereof who speaks in tongues is unfit to lead.
The President of the United States has unique destructive power. If Ms. Palin is to have access to such things as a hotline or a nuclear code, or access to a position in which this is likely, speaking in tongues and believing in a personal god disqualify her. Her speech will have to be considered and clear, and her actions must be informed by real consequences rather than an ancient mystical rumor.
Granted, Bush Jr. has failed on both counts, and we can only thank Atlas (god of Atlantis and son of Poseidon) that we've survived this long.

It should be emphasized however that at the first Pentacost, when the Apostles preached in their own language, those who gathered to hear them heard the message in their own languages. That was the kind of speaking in tongues that had a genuine purpose. So the Holy Spirit worked such a miracle.

But in this day and age when translators and interpreters are available a plenty, there is no need for the Holy Spirit to work such a miracle. Christians should pray the Our Father many times instead of "trying to speak in tongues."

In the 70s I was involved in the Catholic Charismatic Movement, the Catholic version of Pentacostalism, and was soon put off by the pressure to speak in tongues. I left. Not only the pressure to speak in tongues was a bit much but the emotionalism was not suited to my personality.

Luckily, the Catholic Charismatic Movement realised soon enough that forcing people to speak in tongues wasn't exactly Biblical. If speaking tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit, on what grounds does any priest/pastor force people to speak in tongues and decide only those who speak in tongues have received the Holy Spirit? The Book of Acts states that people are given different gifts and each one should use their gifts for building up the body of Christ, the Church. As for speaking in tongues, the Bible does state that only if there is a person to interpret what is spoken in tongues, should anyone be allowed to speak in tongues, even if he/she has received the gift from the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Charismatic Movement has evolved since the days I was involved with it for a short while in the 70s. Luckily it is still alive and well and thriving in the Catholic Church. It is the right kind of worship for some types of people. The Catholic Church fortunately recognizes that and the Movement has the approval of the Church hierarchy.

Evangelicals brought us 8 years of Bush. Respect? They deserve less than zero.

As a Apostolic one god preacher and one who has and does speak in other tongues as the bible declares all that believe was promised as a pentecostal i find that some folks are not properly imformed on this great gift from God and to those that decide not to believe that this promise is for them have and do miss out ,yet to the ones who mock ,god has said to that he will not be mocked and woe to them that do ,and as i read the paper welcomes input for it makes them sales and profit just as rush what ever his name is how he starts contention well thats all this comic did and he has a right to do as he wills and we have a right to respond correctly or pray for those as well as him to reciecv the holy ghost baptism and he will as well speak in other tongues.he is just miss guided and making what he feel s is funny for prohits . so dont worry about him there is and will be others yet when the door is shut its shut ,so pray , and move on.Ignorance fed, is just ingnorance bred.

What country do they speak the tongues of angels in Evan?
And where does one fidn a translator?

Speaking in tongues isn't actually speaking some bizarre unknown language. You really need to actually read the Bible on this one. Speaking in tongues is clearly shown as speaking in a foreign language to preach the gospel to those who speak that foreign language. Acts 2, people.

When will Sarah Palin release her tax returns?

If the canidates are going to put their faith on display for the benefit of their campaign, then they need to also take the bad that comes along with it. Its not the fact that we are "ignorant" about pentecostals, its that we're scared by them. The last person we put in office who could "talk to god" didnt go over so well if you can remember. I think Palin deserves as much respect from the press as Hillary Clinton got... which was none. I was not a Hillary supporter, I just dont see why Palin gets hit from the press with kid gloves while Clinton seemed to get brass knuckles constantly.

First things first!!!

Many contemporary historic Jesus exegetes after reading all the available scripture and non-scripture references about the life of the simple preacher man have concluded that Pentecost was not even an historic event.

e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/479_The_Promised_Spirit

Stop and consider also the paranormal "tongues of fire" involvement in the Pentecost. It is right up there with belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies" aka angelsl/satans.

And the miracle of speaking foreign languages?? Give us a break!!!

PENTECOSTALS ARE MENTALLY ILL

As a Pentecostal believer in Christ that believes in and teaches the importance of such biblical values as peace, unity, love, and even a high degree of what many would interpet as tolerance for those who would disagree with biblical principles, I am totally set back by anyone with the reputation of the Washington Post who would permit the attack of any religion in such a manner as to equate it with what amounts to blasphemy toward God. If this is freedom of the press, we are witnessing its loss of respect.

I Agree, and contempt is the only cure for that disease.

Religion itself, and particularly the hysterical religions such as the pentecostals, are a disease.

A virulent, infectious, parasitic disease.

"I don't just believe this, I know it." Ask any believer how many times a day they say that. Well I've just said it too.

I don't have to stereotype pentecostals, they stereotype themselves. As long as they scream and moan and fondle their snakes or beads or whatever it is they do, as long as they do keep it to themselves I don't want to know about it.

When they start gathering together in public and make claims against my government based on their disease - then it does become my business, and out of pure self defense I will do all I can, say anything necessary to devalue these people and their disease.

Sarah Palin is a self absorbed, self centered and not too bright bimbo. With Todd you get the Ken and Barbie doll set for this season. Writing about their "faith" is an insult to people of genuine faith. If this over coached vain twit is a heartbeat away from the Presidency we are all in for a round of faith where we pray daily for the health and well being of John McCain.

Anti-science biblical creationsists - those that believe the Earth is about 5,500 years old - have no business teaching in schools, much less being a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Everything about global warming, free and independent Supreme Court justices, the current corporate socialism set up by Bush, the various Bills of Rights being turned off and ignored, no habeus corpus...

These aren't "caricatures". We need intelligence and science, not Mom and creationism. Palin is unfit to be president; mercurial, aging John McCain should be ashamed he picked her for V.P.

"To imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment."

Actually, it's not a leap at all. Palin is naive, and he is not able to lead. Not BECUASE she speaks in tongues. That's just one externally observable characteristic exposing a quite relevant predisposition of one who would presume to lead.

Is it likewise a leap in judgment when the Reverend John Hagee implores people like Joe Lieberman to bomb Iran to hasten the second coming of Jesus Christ?

It is entirely relevant to insist that an elected official vested with this much responsibility live in the real world we all live in, and that their particular faith not be a source of misery for everyone else.

Common Sense,

I googled. I am not going to sleep well for a long time. I have stared madness in the face.

Google the Third Wave and see Bruce Wilson's coverage via the Huffingtonpost to learn more about Palin's Third Wave affiliations. This is pretty strange stuff folks.

Apparently Sarah Palin is even more aligned with religious insanity then first imagined - the so-called Third Wave movement is so retrograde as regards modern intelligent thinking that this cultish sect would be more appropriate as a medieval splinter group - definitely an extremist heretical orientation compared to mainstream Christianity.

McCain is so illiterate and compulsive in so many ways, this little black sorcerer becomes his VP choice in order to win an election. The GOP is really beyond corrupt - they've nearly brought this country to it's knees, and about half of the population still wants more Bush ala McCain.

His potential Presidency represents a far greater danger than the current Wall Street meltdown. You just can't be that stupid and still be President of the USA - or can you??

To be clear, Rev. Salguero never said that Governor Palin or any other candidate should not have their policies, worldviews, or leadership questioned. His explicit appeal was to not tie speaking in tongues and belonging to a Pentecostal denomination with inability to lead. He actually welcomes an open questioning of how worldview and faith inform public policy. Here are several other erroneous assumptions that have been made about Rev. Salguero's post:

1.Assumption #1 He does not advocate science. Everyone should read all his other post.

2. Assumption #2: He and all other Pentecostals agree with Governor Palin on the Middle East,ecology, judicial appointments, educational policy, etc. He did not make this point. His point is that ridiculing the speaking in tongues is unwise and has nothing to do with the ability to govern.

3. Assumption #3: He believes that religious leaders can claim to speak for God. Rev. Salguero has directly repudiated this claim in other postings.

4. Assumption #4: All Pentecostals are fundamentalist that agree on all political issues.

Rev. Salguero said he respects and accepts the freedom of the press and difference of opinion.
In short, Pentecostal stereotyping is just like any other stereotyping, "defining all people of one group under one banner and usually in a pejorative manner." It is appropriate to question candidates on any policy and framing worldview it is rather disheartening to continue to stereotype any group. Even if it is easy so as to dismiss them.

To Interesting but you miss the point:

Do you have a link or three to this 'Third Wave' stuff? As you described it, that is really frightening. We have before us the specter of St Sarah the Moose Slayer in the oval office, at the head of a nation that she considers 99.8% under demonic influence?

That could be the stuff of revolution.

Palin is not a Pentacostal. Palin's Assembly of God churches are deeply involved in a movement called the Third Wave or New Apostolic Reformation.

Third Wave beliefs are so different from traditional Assemblies of God belief that the national body of the Assemblies of God denounced Third Wave beliefs, in 1949 and again in 2000, as heresy.

It's a movement that claims, under the rubric of Christian unity, that all Christian denominations are invalid--their members aren't true Christians or, at least, they aren't truly saved. This is a sort of hyper-fundamentalism which thinks that not only all Protestant denominations, but the Catholic Church as well, aren't valid expressions of Christianity. And, not too surprisingly, the movement thinks all other religious and philosophical belief systems on earth are invalid too and even under demonic influence.

It's hard not to laugh at such myopic self delusion. It's the biblical end-gamers like Palin that make it not so funny. Just push a button and start the rapture, that will solve the problem of all of those non-believers.

It seems perfectly acceptable for christians to judge the non-believer as being worthy of eternal torture by their loving god.

Of course it's the believer's fault that their holy book tells them this, right?

We seem tolerant of this attitude, perhaps because there are so many believers, but in the end we have to put up with their ministers and pastors and what-have-you screaming to sky about how we unbelievers are going to be roasted continuously forever.

Why? Because it's their right to believe it. Even I agree with that, it is their right.

I require the same consideration. I truly believe that anybody who can swallow this monstrous holy crock of .... must be insane, must be deranged.

You say I'm going to burn, I say you're nuts. You say my opinion is being intolerant, but your opinion isn't?

Bah, you're not going to be able to understand this are you.

What do Pentacostals think of the fact, reported in the New Yorker, that John McCain has never been baptized and therefore is not a Christian?

As a non-religious person who happens to know a fair amount about the phenomenon of religion, you can't begin to imagine how entertaining it is to see the gravity with which believers take themselves and their faith-based beliefs seriously - speaking in tongues and channeling the Holy Spirit is an excellent example, particularly in a VP candidate.

But please - keep this stuff private. Do we want religious soul-baring from our political candidates? Not me.......

Should sane people be expected to remain silent when this stuff hits the media? The author takes the concept of tolerance too far.

Religion in the public, media-based arena currently confuses secular with sectarian - and this is getting to be more than reasonable people can sit still for.

During the lead up to our current giant financial crisis, all the media has talked about for the last year is the religious persuasions of the prospective candidates.

In the meantime, we have a global meltdown in the financial industry. The media with their tabloid mentality are as amoral as the Wall Street gurus that engineered the fiscal blow-out that threatens our economic well-being today.

The European community has the good sense to ignore religion in the political arena - so why not the USA? All of this airing of religious beliefs in the public sector in advance of a national election makes the electorate look positively childish. And that's putting it kindly. The GOP candidates seem to be as limited as their ultra-religious voting base.

But according to this article we should just let it be - even in a VP candidate that is, by association, adept at glossolalia and is also a born-again Creationist, and much more (or less).

Nope, I don't think so. Respect has it's limits.

I don't have a problem with political conservatives speaking a language I don't understand--I've had that problem with George Will for years--I do have a problem though with public officials speaking a language that no one understands.

Pator,

Although I respect your viewpoint, I would like to point out that "respect" is something to be earned, it is not something that can be mandated or regulated.

If one has never done anything worthy of earning my respect, I am certainly not going to give it.

I don’t have a problem with political conservatives speaking a language that I don’t understand--I’ve had that problem with George Will for years--but I do have a problem with public officials speaking a language that no one understands.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but the reason so many of us think the pentecostals are nuts is not because of this speaking in tongues business.

No, the sad truth is we think they are nuts because they are, nuts.

Anyone who thinks with their limbic system instead of their higher brain structures is nuts, cookoo, perterbed, wacko. That they are willingly so is even more proof that there must be some kind of dementia involved.

Many contemporary historic Jesus exegetes after reading all the available scripture and non-scripture references about the life of the simple preacher man have concluded that Pentecost was not an historic event.

e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/479_The_Promised_Spirit

Stop and consider also the paranormal "tongues of fire" involvement in the Pentecost. It is right up there with belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies" aka angelsl/satans.

And the miracle of speaking foreign languages?? Give us a break!!!

Although I am not religious, I agree with the views of Mr. Salguero. Distorted and demeaning views of others based on religion should have no place in our discourse.

Now - if we can only get the Pentacostals (and every other denomination) to stop distorting and demeaning the views of unbelievers...

Mr. Oliphant may be talented and clever, but his political cartoon shouts to the world just how much he understands about Pentecostals at large...absolutely nothing! In most businesses, such ignorance would be intolerable and just cause for termination of employment. Unfortunately, papers such as The Washington Post encourage political harpoonists, excuse me, cartoonists to engage in character assassination, based on religious beliefs, before they know what they are drawing about.

Really, you can't be serious as MacEnroe use to say!

Incest and murder are shown in the Bible and condemned. Big difference. I was referring to practices of the Church in the Bible. Hopefully others can differentiate.

The Bible contains acceptable practices for Christians. These practices also affect the larger culture and government. So for practicing Christians you might say they are definitely acceptable.

RIGHT ON!!!!!!!

"It is assumed the reader will not be judgemental of a religios practice that they are unfamiliar with."

Well isn't that the first stupid assumption?

"Especially since it is practiced in the Bible."

As is incest, murder, etc. Being "in the Bible" doesn't make something normal, acceptable or legal.

"Aren't we living in a tolerant world where people try to understand before they judge."

Rather obviously not!
Anywho, if 'speaking in tongues' is so danged 'normal' why not show some peeps doing it?
Perhaps because it would look like the 'speaker' is having some sort of fit or episode?

Right on Target!

>

Victoria wrote:
""To imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment."

Well, alright- but you give us no reasons at all to rebut such an opinion."

Victoria,

I think he means to say that speaking in tongues isn't any wackier or any more relevant to governing than believing in any other supernatural phenomena. They are all equally wacky and equally irelevant.

Victoria wrote:
""To imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment."

Well, alright- but you give us no reasons at all to rebut such an opinion."

Victoria,

I think he means to say that speaking in tongues isn't any wackier or any more relevant to governing than believing in any other supernatural phenomena. They are all equally wacky and equally irelevant.

I thought his article was quite clear.

It is assumed the reader will not be judgemental of a religios practice that they are unfamiliar with. Especially since it is practiced in the Bible. Aren't we living in a tolerant world where people try to understand before they judge. Well, maybe not really, but I think most readers understood the writer.

A writer can't expand on every point, it just makes the reading long, boring, and ends up being condescending. Truth is, we should avoid be judgemental when at all possible.

The author states-

"To imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment."

Well, alright- but you give us no reasons at all to rebut such an opinion.

I cannot imagine any (who don't already agree with you) being the slightest bit moved or enlightened by your assertion.

Because you didn't give us a reason WHY it would be a leap to judgement.

How come the MSM pumped the airwaves with weeks of selected quotes from Rev Wright, but we have yet to see FoxNews, MSNBC, CNN or "the big three" show films of people 'speaking in tougues'? If three out-of-context quotes from Rev. Wright were newworthy, why not the bizarre actions in side Palin's 'church'?
Maybe because most normal Americans would freak out? Palin could always fall back on "at least we aint snake handlers!"

Faithfulservant3 said:
"But think of all the time people waste praying ..."

I don't know why people waste so much time praying either but I've wasted plenty of time myself writing to Santa Claus on Christmas and waiting for the Great Pumpkin to appear over the pumkin patch at Halloween, so who am I to question something as harmless as speaking in tongues? To me it's similar to the spiritual babbling and howling at the moon that results from a good ole whiskey drunk. A waste of time, yes ... but a completely harmless waste of time nonetheless!

Who on Earth is spreading the idea that Christians might use their polical power to start the End Times. I have studied Christianity and never even heard of the concept. In fact, the idea is completely unbiblical.

First, we have no control over when the End Times will happen. God has this in his hands and no one else. We are told no one knows but him.

Second, even if we had control, who would want bring it about. It generally means things on Earth have gotten out of control and God's final judgement is coming.

Third, most Christians believe we won't be around for the end times. The Bible speaks of a Rapture for believers, meaning Christians won't be around for End Times.

Please don't believe any knowledgable Christians would even think of doing this.

When I first began investigating my faith in Jesus Christ I regularly attended a nondenominational church out of the pentecostal tradition, and still do sometimes fellowship at pentecostal churches. Even though I disagreed with the worldview espoused by many at that church, I admired their focus on the bible and the passion with which they worship the Lord.

What a blessing it is to be around people who believe miracles still occur and that the Lord still reveals Himself in powerful ways to individuals, even here in the 21st century.

Regarding speaking in tongues. Paul said it all and there is really nothing left to add: "I show you a more excellent way!" (see 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13).

God is love. This is the heart of the gospel. Paul goes on to say that edification and dignity are important. Having someone there to interpret "tongues" to the church is therefore paramount.

Incoherent babbling is against scripture, in and of itself. I don't doubt that some people have been given this gift by God.

I have had dreams myself where I understood and was understood in languages that I don't know. Once, this involved ancient languages out of antiquity. But, my comprehension of it all slipped away in the twinkling of an eye between sleep and waking. So if I could almost receive it, I'm sure there are a few who indeed have.

My problem is with churches who insist you MUST have tongues as a sign of the Holy Spirit. They place the wrong emphasis on the biblical text. Therefore, there is pressure to speak in tongues. People begin to think, "is ther something wrong with me because I'm not doing that?" So, in order to fit in I believe they make it up. Something that is such a rare gift cannot be given to the whole church every week!

I believe that God forgives them. After all, they just desire to appear holy, being mistaught. But think of all the time people waste praying that the Lord will give them the gift of tongues when they could be praying for others, for the poor, for more compassion, for world peace...

I don't care if she speaks in tongues or not. I do care if she's a member of Joel's Army or other Christian Dominionist/End Times group that wants to establish a theocracy in America, or bring about the End Times. I am also worried about that witch-hunting pastor that "layed hands on her" - Rev. Muthee(?).

People should be free to believe and practice their faiths as they please, within the confines of their own homes and houses of worship.

What they should NOT be free to do is force those beliefs on others by trying to get them codified in law.

Religious fundamentalists offended by a cartoon?

Where have I heard this one before?

Many contemporary historic Jesus exegetes after reading all the available scripture and non-scripture references about the life of the simple preacher man have concluded that Pentecost was not an historic event.

e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/479_The_Promised_Spirit

Stop and consider also the paranormal "tongues of fire" involvement in the Pentecost. It is right up there with belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies" aka angelsl/satans.

And the miracle of speaking foreign languages?? Give us a break!!!

I don't want anyone who actually believes they can "speak in tongues" when inspired by the Holy Fire anywhere near our nuclear launch codes, anymore than I want Usama bin Laden to have access to nuclear weapons.

This is not the time to stand on niceties or politeness when it comes to questioning Sarah Palin's religious views.

Palin needs to be pressed on her views regarding the "end times", and the Apocalypse, and whether, if she ended up as President, she would use our nuclear arsenal to hasten the Apocalypse if she believes it's something God would approve of.

The far-right knuckle-dragging, anti-Christian, religious extremists at home in the GOP have held far too much sway in our society since Bush Jr slithered into office via those unelected, activist judges the religious right rails against in so many other cases. These people have wielded enormous political power out of all logical proportions to their actual numbers.

They should be mocked, they should be socially shunned, as the type of mindset Palin endorses & practices does NOT represent the political, social or religious mainstream in our society.

If one is running for elected office at the National level, their loyalty must be to our Constitution over their loyalty to their God, if there's a problem with that, then find another line of work where you won't violate your own religious beliefs, and you won't violate the rights of others not sharing your mindset.

Hello,

I was wondering if an apology was made for a very disgraceful comic that shows Palin speaking in tongues and God cursing about it.

If you know of a Christian at your establishment, please have them read the following:

(words of Jesus are in red) All these scriptures took place after Jesus was raised from the dead..
Mark 16:15-17
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.
Luke 24:44-49
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48And ye are witnesses of these things.
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:5
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 1:8

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(Now they are waiting in the upper room)
Acts 2:1-42
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. (it has not passed away)
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 8:5-8
5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8And there was great joy in that city.
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
(The Apostle Paul receives the Holy Ghost)
Acts 9:1-18
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Acts 10
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:1-18
1And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
4But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
5I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts 19:1-6
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(speaking in tongues in the church is differentiated from speaking in tongues privately at home in this next chapter. The whole chapter is about speaking in tongues)
1 Corinthians 14
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Tthis tells us that we should be praying in tongues at home and in church (with some order.)
Romans 8:26
26So too the Holy Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.
Jude 1:20
20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost.
Ephesians 5:18
18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.

I’m sure you don’t know how many Spirit filled believers are in this world, but we are about 2 Billion strong and growing every day.

Over 36% of all Americans are Spirit Filled and speak in tongues.

As you can see from the scriptures above, it’s in the Bible. I hope you will check it with your Bible at home.

I hope Palin is filled with the Spirit. We need some Spirit-filled decisions in the White House.

Please let me know how this horrible mistake is rectified.

Vonnie,
Indiana

Thank you, Rev. Gabriel Salguero, for an excellent and accurate explanation of the relevant concerns and issues. What you articulated so well should be read and affirmed by every thinking citizen.
= Paul de Vries, president, NY Divinity School

Would you want a President or Vice President who genuinely believes in Santa Claus or the Great Pumpkin? Then why would you put up with one who has an imaginary supernatural Master who tells him or her what to do with unfailing accuracy? Oh, and would you trust for ONE SECOND the character of someone who actually WORSHIPS a BIGOLDALLPOWERFULSOMETHING who burns his enemies (and whose enemies turn out to be most people) in Hell forever? People of a wide variety of religions freely advertise steadily the nature of their true character and trustworthiness by advertising what they admire and grovel to on a regular basis. Some people actually grow up; others never do--and are proud of it--and often just as mean about it as you would expect someone to be who admires Someone ready to cruelly sacrifice his firstborn for strangers and advise others to do the same. Naturally you would not expect such a person to respect the separation of church and state, as such persons would naturally know that all the state's powers should be used to enforce worship of the TRUE GOD (you know the nasty one who burns his enemies forever with no qualms). Let enough deeply religious people into power and we can look forward to the Spanish Inquisition and worse again--only down with such cute smiles and waves!!!!

I have no objection to anyone practicing his or her religion. In fact, if I want to be free to practice my religion, then I must want other to have the same right and I do. BUT I draw the distinction at others who, if elected to office would want me to practice their religion -- or at least tenants of it. I am a Catholic. I am fully aware that there are some right wing Protestants who do not consider us Christians. That is their right. But if they want to make me conform to their so-called Christianity, I have a problem. But I am a Christian and I do object to them claiming that some of their beliefs are Christian. They seem to pick certain obscure passages from the Bible while conveniently ignoring the more difficult ones. E.g., morality seems to be only about sexual since (or things like gambling or dancing which ae nowhere seen as sins in the Bible -- or alcohol despite the fact that Jesus used it at Cana and in the Eucharist). Meanwhile, they flip out over homosexuality which is mentioned very little while complaining when the government practices what Jesus frequently said about the rich selling what they have and GIVING to the poor. They treat the second amendment as if it came from God while ignoring what did come from Him about "turning the other cheek." Need we go on? So while I think they can believe what they want, I can choose not to vote someone who has just distain for the poor or so little respect for human life that while they oppose abortion, they have no qualms about unjust wars, failure to seek scientific cures and inoculations for illnesses, and giving free health care so people would live longer and healthier lives.

So while I do not think there should be a religious test for any candidate, I am not sure I would want a person who believes in faith healing over a doctor's care heading HEW, for example. It is not that I oppose his or her religion, just that I oppose their beliefs being imposed on me. Just as I have seen lucrative job offers in my field in Saudi Arabia, but never considered them because I know that I would not be free to practice my religion there -- they would try to impose Islam on me.

Similarly with Mrs. Palin. I have no problem with her worshiping as she sees fit. I do have a problem with her (or anyone) who thinks teaching evolution contradicts God's creation (even Darwin did not deny God's role), with claiming one shows support of troops by keeping them at war to get shot rather than showing support by bringing them home safe and sound. If I were that soldier, I know I would think it much more supporting to bring me home. I would oppose her as I do most Conservatives because they do not see greed as a sin but rather a motivating force. I would oppose her as a person who seems to want to use power for herself and friends. I would oppose her because of her lack of Civil Rights (she sounds like she believes that somehow she believes morality is a function of geography -- people in red states are somehow better than the good souls in the big cities of the east and west). I think we are all equal.

I would not vote for her because I do not think she can think for herself. They are not letting her even answer questions until they feed her lines and then she constantly repeats the same lines over and over. I have seen two presidents who were unable to think for themselves and who seem to have others pulling their strings. I think they led us to this disaster. I do not want to rish another one. If those who picked her do not even trust her to speak for herself to the press etc., I sure do not want her representing me to the world. This has nothing to do with her religion. In fact, she has changed religions. She was baptized in mine, but changed. Are you saying that I should take that as an insult to my religion the way she is taking every criticism of her as an attack on her religion or gender?

I was baptized in a Pentecostal Church in when I was 19, and spoke in tongues. Now I'm 50, and have long since left the church.

Has Palin spoken in tongues? The American people simply have a right to know. Just as, if Mitt Romney was a candidate, people should know which tenets of Mormonism he believes. We should know if candidates harbor beliefs that we might feel would impair their judgement as president.

In the church I belonged to, those with the 'gift of tongues' were seen as spiritually superior to the rest of the congregation. Specially blessed. I like to kxow if Palin considers herself in this 'specially blessed' group of spiritual elitists.

Pentecostals as a whole see their church as being closer to the Truth - and to God - than other churches, and I would like to know her stand on this.

Finally, Pentecostals, those who are true to church doctrine, see non-Christians as doomed to hell. I would like to know if this is her view. (Mormons - hell; Catholics - iffy. Jews - only if they converst).

I would really like to know if Ms. Palin sees herself potential VP of a nation composed mostly of citizens she views as on the road to hell.

That's a personal religious belief I think the country ought to know about too.

In 6 weeks Sarah Palin will be Parah Salin' back to Alaska, speaking in tongues, shootin' wolves, and facing increasing indictments for the wreckage she leaves in her wake as she administers the office of governor of Alaska.

What an absolutely wrong-headed column.

Mr Oliphant has every right to dismiss Pentacostals for any damn reason he wishes, just as he has the right to dismiss the latest hare-brained scheme coming out of Washington for any reason he pleases. Last I looked, the right of free speech still stands in this country.

Mr Oliphant's cartoon in no way circumvents your right to believe however you wish to believe. You're just upset because Mr Oliphant is calling your beliefs out for the crazy fantasy that they are, while exposing the practices that go along with them as the hysterical embarrassments they are.

I appreciate the "nuance" lecture from anonymous and want to say "thank you."

But Pentecostals and their ascendancy (Vice Presidential candidate for the Republican Party, for heaven's sake!) just freaks me out to all hell.

Yes, I am scared and frightened. But not a coward not afraid to call them on it.

I'd love to see an agnostic or atheist run for office in America, but I know that will not happen in a million years.

I appreciate the Author's use of the Pentecostalisms, because there are many or us who are not ignorant bigots who hate and bash gay people, have political ambitions or power trips. Some of us are highly educated, work in the sciences and have no problems with issues like evolution.
Even though there are Pentecostals who are utter dolts and prostitute the Gospel to spew lies, hatred, and seek political power, doesn't mean that all Pentecostals support or believe their drivel.
Please do not be quick to judge and lump together the 120 million or so people who label themselves Pentecostal, we do not all neatly fit into one stereotype...though in creating such a stereotype it certainly is easy to dismiss and belittle those who are willing to engage on a thoughtful and humble level with their neighbors.

Palin has publically described our invasion of Iraq as a task from God. She also stated that God wanted a pipeline to be completed in Alaska.

If Pentacostals are receiving a bad reputation due to this presidential campaign, Palin deserves some of the blame also.

no they don't.

The problem with Palin's Pentecostalism is not glossolalia, but her seeming to feel that God's will is her will, and vice-versa. Identifying what she does with God's will, and demonizing those who feel otherwise (many of them Christians), is dangerous. It's part of what got us into the mess we are in (Bush would not even listen to what religious leaders had to say before he went into Iraq - he said later that he had decided that it was what God wanted him to do). So her religious beliefs, in this case, are important. I have no problem with Pentecostalism; but if someone wants me to respect their faith, they need to respect mine.

Friends:

Much of the nuance of Rev. Salguero's post has been lost on these postings. I will give you my bullet-point impressions of his thoughts:

1. Candidates worldview and faith should be examined in so far as they impact public policy. For example, Obama's, McCain's, Palin's, and Biden's worldview and faith is open to scrutiny in so far as they inform resolving Middle East Conflicts, pro-life and pro-choice debates, civil unions, the budget, Darfur, AIDS/HIV, and many other issues. His point speaking in tongues is not one of these issues.

2. He advises not to vote for candidates based on denomination or religious affiliation but based on policies. I read this as a critique of all partisanship (which includes the Religious Right,fundamentalist, liberalisms, and many others).

3. Rev. Salguero argues that not all Pentecostals are Republicans. Even if many Pentecostals may be part of the religious right he is highlighting a wave of Pentecostals that seek to be non-partisan. He trys to draw some distance from any partisanship as he calls himself "an Independent voter interested in platforms and issues." That's why he does not endorse any candidate publicly.

4. Rev. Salguero is aware of the political pandering that uses religious language to get votes. That is why he says we must "download" and read the party platforms and make an informed decision. Rev. Salguero is neither naive or disingenous he points to these strategies explicitly in his post and tells people to see them for what they are.

5.The blog critiques all stereotyping of any group and says that it does not contribute to a healthy national dialogue.

6. A blog against stereotyping and caricature should not be seen as an endorsement of any candidate but an attempt to build a better national conversation.

Penecostals are a fringe group of any religious denomination - just like fundamentalists. In fact, both groups are separatists. Who could call them Christians without reservation - Or Zionists? Or Jihadists? Or whatever?

These groups and their untrained ministers all tend to prey on the poor and uneducated folks who have a need for religion and think that this is it! Wrong!

Yes, we have to be tolerant of everyone's beliefs, but belief must have some basis in reality.

All religious hooey is to be considered strange, uninformed or naive when choosing secular leaders. If you want a religious country then go somewhere and form one, and you can all sit around and think about how you're going to "heaven". I spent many years in christianity and saw the hypocrital, racist and sexist views taught in church. America is great not because of religion but in spite of it.

I believe that it's important to question the leadership qualities of someone who regularly engages in the delusional hysteria of "speaking in tongues", just as I question the leadership qualities of someone who thinks that the creator of the universe gives a crap about their diet or how many times a day they pray. Please. This is the 21st century. Let's at least try to be rational. The universe is unimaginably old and unfathomably huge. If it has an almighty creator, it couldn't care less about the petty indulgences that most people call "religion".

I grew up around pentacostals and many like them. It is hard to tolerate those who ignore rude facts for their shallow belief system. The choice to be ignorant is not tolerable as is the choice to talk Christian rather then be Christian.

Pastor Salguero,

Thank you for a thoughtful perspective. I am a United Methodist Pastor, (the denomination once accused of being "enthusiasts", the 18th century perjorative for Pentecostal, and the denomination out of which emerged many if not most Pentecostal Denominations today. I share your viewpoint on not making a religious litmus test for public office, particularly with practices so private as modes of prayer.

I do suggest, however, that the litmus test, has come more from the "religious right" than from newspaper cartoonists!

And finally, I care not about Governor Palin's mode of prayer, but I do care that she has yet (26 days after being nominated, not yet been willing to answer questions in a public forum press conference! How else am I going to get an opportunity to know about her policies, opinions, leadeship skills, etc.

You are right, Pentecostals and Christians come in all status, parties, economic conditions, etc; but one wouldn't know that listening to the "culture warriors" of the religious right for the last 25 or so years who have virtually identified Christianity with the Republican Party!

Time for a change.

Finally,

We must continue to criticize evangelicals not for the manner in which they worship (tongues, etc.), but the content of their views when they attempt to legislate a bigoted view of the bible. Examples include laws that allow a pharmacy to refuse to distribute birth control, discrimination against gays, abstinence only education, and creationism. When religious and politics mix, and spew out hatred, it's fair game to attack.

I have no problem being a jerk.

I am not your friend. I don't believe in enabling stupidity.

So, name me one great Pentecostal scientist? College professor? Doctor? Dentist? Peace maker? Anything?

When I see pentecostals I see everything I can't stand about ignorance, fear, stupidity and the way so many Christians bend the message of Christ to suit their temporal, selfish and worldly ends.

They have every right to their beliefs. Handle as many snakes as you want. "Tolerance" is merely putting up with something you otherwise find unpleasant. I'm sure they feel the same way about my Catholic upbringing or my current position of agnostic.

"Tolerating" pentecostal politicians doesn't mean you stand idly by and not challenge their ignorant, anti-science positions. And you sure as hell don't vote for them.

You know, I and others like me didn't introduce religion into political discourse. I find that offensive. But now that it's a "must" then why should I be nice about it?

Using religion to choose your leaders is idiotic and as the current President demonstrates, not a guarantee of good leadership or decision-making.

sorry, but i think whether a candidate speaks in tongues or not is a topic that needs to be discussed.
as a canadian who lives in a "non-christian" country - statistically we are that now - i have to say i don't want a "leader of the free world" that is prone to such superstition.
tell me this....if a presidential candidate practiced voodoo, would you consider that off limits?

remarkably good comment. being a recovered baptist (now presbyterian), i will concede the point that generally, it isn't the presbyterians, the catholics, or the episcopalians who have rolled up their sleeves and are trying to evangelize the downtrodden in our american society. its the pentecostals who invite the poor to their sheet metal tabernacles. unfortunately, i have to sometimes wonder whether its their souls they covet or their votes.

Respect for persons, which is owed to all, is easily conflated with respect for each person's beliefs, which is not.

I agree none of us should mock the belief of others. We do it because it makes our egos seem superior.

But I think it is worth contemplating that everything affirmed must ultimately be negated. Every religious concept or belief will ultimately be found to have a beginning and an end.

It's the price of living in a perceivable world, where everything to have a discernable reference point must be paired with its opposite. Paradox and contradiction are forever inherent in the sphere of the human mind -- which creates the world as we typically know or experience it.

These relative realities are hard for most of us to digest; we're usually not taught to ponder the mystery of existence in this way. But worth some reflection I think.

The best one can probably do: Actually live your truth, let others do the same. And Vote according to your conscience. If you can give birth to a new mind, however, something that is not false may be available.

I think everyone who believes in giant invisible beings that live in the sky, perform magic tricks, and speak to believers, should be given the same amount of respect.

None.

Let's try living in a reality-based world and see if that works a little better.

billm

The problem with Evangelicals (Assembly of God in particular) is not speaking in tongues. My wife is ordained and prays in tongues. The problem is in their reliance on political solutions to spiritual challenges, that causes me to question whether they truly believe that God is calling the shots. The faith in politics belies faith in God. Meanwhile, nowhere on the AOG radar does it explain the the racist core of the establishment of the AOG church. That spirit lives today in the lily-whitest major pentecostal denomination out there. So, be very wary when Evangelicals ascribe God's validation to their worldly political agenda (as Sarah Palin has done). She relies on political power, while claiming Holy Ghost power. But God is jealous of any faith we show that is not directed to him. Boiled down - there is an ocean of worldliness and hypocrisy here that reminds me more of the Pharoahs and pharisees than it does real Christians, who view politics as inconsequential to salvation.

I am a northerner living in the deep south. I have been to the Pentacostal church. It is a belief system that is highly ingrained into their psyches. Brought up catholic and now non practicing, I enjoyed the overt demonstrations of the Pentacostal's faith, the speaking in tongues and the praising and singing. I believe we should accept all demonstrations of faith for what they are, the community of sharing in God's word and should not be compared to Bush's horrible presidency, which is obvious that it was never guided by God or reason. Bush will simply go down as the worst President this country has ever known. Amen. God help his successor.

My prediction--Mr. Salguero's noble line about how people's religious affiliation (no matter how wacky, uninformed, and just plain stupid) shouldn't matter and how they deserve our respect would change 180 degrees when an acknowledged agnostic, atheist, or a non-Christian runs for high political office. His demand for respect will never be reciprocated.

As for being lampooned by political cartoonists--sorry, did your wittle feelings get hurt? Pentecostals can dish it out against non-Christians, gays, liberals, etc., but they can't take it.

A wise call for nuance and understanding. However, it is not Palin's faith that many object to, but the injection of her spiritual worldview into a political system that affects individuals over a broad spectrum of beliefs and values.

I respect people's right to their religious beliefs. But I, for one, am tired of these subjective ideas dominating politics and world events. Be they Islamic, Jewish or Christian fundamentalists, surely we have had enough of killers acting in the name of God.

You have to be kidding. The religious right is a greater danger to our country than even the terrorists

Friends:

Much of what has been said on this post has once again broad brushed Pentecostals. If you read Rev. Salguero's multiple post you will see that he is progressive in terms of faith, public policy, and politics. Many of Rev. Salguero's post advocate for respect for all faiths, and non-religious people. Rev. Salguero has identified himself as an Independent voter who would like to talk about issues.

As I know Rev. Salguero personally, I also know he decries people of faith aligning themselves uncritically with any political party. He calls himself an Independent that should let you know some of his stances. The point of his blog is to say that we should not dismiss people based on their devotional, prayer, or worship practices as long as they don't affect others adversely. Rev. Salguero clearly argues that it is fair to ask about the candidates position on public issues like affirmative action, Palestine and Israel, civil rights, the economy, civil unions. The candidates prayer and worship preferences is not a litmus test. The cartoon made fun of a specific practice. I assume that Rev. Salguero believes that questions about eschatology and Israel, same sex unions, are fair questions in the public sphere. The cartoon and his response were not about those issues. Please read his concluding statement.

While there are some abuses, as Rev. Salguero readily admits, he is saying that there is a long-standing and growing group of Pentecostals and Charismatics that are seeking a progressive common good. Again, Rev. Salguero speaks of a broad spectrum of Pentecostals. The point is simple; The caricature of any group Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, non-religious is always unwise, this includes Pentecostals and Charismatics.

I agree that a candidate's personal religious practices "shouldn't" be the focus or a litmus test for elected office. But Mr. Salguero is being either a little disengenuous or politically naive here. When a candidate makes appeals to voters that are couched in overt or coded religious language (as Governor Palin has done), then the candidate has made that religious affiliation a political position that must be addressed publicly. You cannot in good conscience ask commentators to stay away from attacking or representing a candidates religious practices when those practices are being used to woo voters--the separation of public policy and religious practice that Mr. Salguero advocates has to be a two way street. Governor Palin was picked, in part (as her behavior, language, and selected audiences evidence), to appeal to Evangelical and other "religious right" voters. That political strategy makes her religious practices fair game until such time as she and the McCain campaign (or any campaign on the right or left) stop employing religious sentiment and affiliation for their benefit.

These kind of arguments from someone like Rev. Salguero are designed to fend off questioning of his sect's practices and beliefs. Fortunately, we live in a modern scientific world where science and discourse are free and respected and Pentecostalism is never going to be free from criticism of its naive beliefs and practices, nor should it be. The very idea of believing in the existence of a supreme being is a naive belief and should be criticised in its turn, but indulging in superstition like the "speaking in tongues" is just catering to the less-sophisticated judgement of undereducated or uncritical people. In the end, people benefit from having irrational beliefs criticized, not from being shielded from criticism...

Pfft, Moctezuma. You've been dead for centuries. Nobody listens to the Unliving Lobby's opinions.

And perhaps the good Pastor Salguero would like to explain exactly WHY a person's religious beliefs are not a vitally important thing for voters to examine during this election? Perhaps you do not realize, Sir, that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and 4,000 American soldiers have DIED in part because a voice in George W. Bush's head that he identified as "God" told him to "end tyranny in Iraq". This war has not only made us less secure, but it has darned near sunk our economy singlehandedly. I sure think what voices might be raging in a candidate's head are wholly relevant.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

I agree with the pastor that we should have no formal, official test for office - the Constitution wisely says our LAW should stay out of that question. But *voters* very surely should look at what curious beliefs any particular candidate might hold, and how that might effect their governing choices. How is this point at all radical?

I'm sorry; Christians in general and Pentacostal brand in particular deserve the ridicule for their ignorant beliefs based solely on the Charisma of their chosen exploitor and con man/women!

As for Ms. Palin and her First Dude; I am truely impressed at how successful they have been given their humble beginnings, their lack of any formal eductaion, and their lifelong conditioning by their insane church! Any successes they have are in spite of this religious nonsense although it is the support of their fellow religious nuts that may give them access to the greatest concentration of military assets ever assemblied... now that is truely dangerous and scary!

By the way, their is nothing so great about blind, ignorant "faith" as to make its some acceptable sort of excuse for stupidity!

they reap what they sow. the contempt of the evangelicals for those who don't share their superstitions would be worthy of a post by some religioso who's eager to cast blame....

Why is the writer so protective about speaking in tongues? I've been to a church like that and I find it very creepy, but if they are so proud of it, they should produce videos of people speaking in tongues and show us all how normal and nice it is.

Mr. Salguero,

Respect is something that is earned not something automatically given because someone attains political office or is chosen to run for a political office. Neither is respect automatically given based on some religion to which a person belongs.

Ms. Palin has yet to do anything worthy of respect therefore none is accorded to her.

Shut up, ya big jerks.

Sarah Palin is GOD

Speaking in tongues in deviltry.

Such people should be burned at the stake.

If they repent while in flames, they will go to Heaven and have eternal bliss.

Right on.

And what about us Aztecs?

We believe that human sacrifice is required to keep the sun shining. When will we be allowed to practice our faith without demeaning criticisms and unconstitutional restrictions?

Sir, maybe Pentecostals will earn my respect when THEY begin respecting the scientific community long enough to give the human race a fighting chance at survival. Their primitive tribal attitudes that "God will always protect us as long as we're his good obedient little children" is DESTROYING OUR BIOSPHERE. Your Gov. Yahoo up there in Alaska, in denying what the entire climate change community has found, is typical of the Bible-only mindset of these people.

The Arctic ice is now predicted to be completely GONE in five years. Gov. Yahoo, no doubt reassured by her pastor telling her God would never let his widdle wookie wookums be left without a stable earth to live on, deliberately MISREPRESENTED her own scientists' findings on the polar bear, because it would get in the way of her drilling agenda. These people are no longer a curious and amusing 18th-century sideshow. They are now a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER to humankind's chances.

Our soldiers are fighting the Pashtun-speaking wing of the Taliban in Afghanistan and I won't stand by and smile while its English-speaking wing here in the States flushes humankind's future down the drain.

And I don't give a damn if you cry "stereotyping" at this post. If these people don't shape up and start realizing what century it is, their grandkids won't HAVE a habitable climate in which to practice their Bronze Age tribal superstitions. In the meantime, I don't want to entrust our government with all its power to the Taliban -- no matter what tongue she is speaking in.

I believe all religions should be ridiculed, especially scary primal ones like rural Pentecostalism.

"Whether a candidate speaks in tongues or not is not indicative of how he/she will govern nor is it relevant to his/her role as a national leader."

How in the heck is it not relevant? We don't have a stake in whether the most powerful person on earth thinks god speaks through him or her? When you get to the core of it, you're saying we shouldn't bother to question whether our leader is completely delusional.

Pentecostals are religious extremists. They have every right to their beliefs, and to practice their religion, but no business representing mainstream Americans, any more than Osama Bin Laden does.

"Whether a candidate speaks in tongues or not is not indicative of how he/she will govern nor is it relevant to his/her role as a national leader."

Uh, yes. It is.

edward wrote:
"Why should asinine religious practices and beliefs be beyond criticism? If a person fervently believed that the earth was flat, would you "respect" his/her right to believe whatever they wished - or would you rightly ridicule and deride this nonsensical belief?"

Why yes, I would respect anyone's right to believe whatever they want to. You seem to confuse respecting someone's right to believe whatever they want, with respecting (or agreeing with) that belief. As far as I'm concerned, people can believe things which I think are demonstrably dumb or false. I'm not sure it's up to you or me to disabuse people of what we may feel are their nonsensical beliefs (nonsensical being, one could point out, in the eye of the beholder). If asked, I would discuss or disagree with beliefs I don't think make sense, but your posting makes it sound like everyone has the right, if not the obligation, to challenge the beliefs of those we disagree with and put them in their place.

Having said all that, certainly I think that what some people believe (about religion, politics, astrology, UFOs, Rush Limbaugh, whatever) to be completely untrue and nonsensical. But certainly they have the right to believe it if they want.

So I don't think that anyone's right to believe what they want should be subject to criticism, which is quite different from saying that I agree with their various beliefs.

Religion ALWAYS loses when it becomes politicized. The mystery of the Godhead is stripped away and religious practitioners discover that they, themselves, are in sole possession of the mind of God.
Wily politicians have ever and anon known this and this generation of Republicans have mined the fields of faith for their own personal agendas.
The poor (and I DO mean poor) stand outside the gates of the City on the Hill crying, "Give me respect, oh, barbarians!"

This essay is a noble effort to take religion off the table in matters political. However, there are some particulars that can't be ignored.

Salguero opines that, "to imply or even hint that good Christians who speak in tongues are naive or not able to lead is truly a leap to judgment."

Further, he makes this point: "Certainly, very few would dare argue that the personal prayer practices of other religious groups makes them ill-equipped to lead."

Actually, I think many would dare. And have done so. And have made good arguments.

However, the problem with these groups isn't that they have non-mainstream private prayer practices; it's that they're insisting that we should all live according to their "moral" code and guidelines. That's what evangelicalism is all about. No one cares what these folks do in private -- or, at least, no one should. But people can get awfully incensed when pressured to adopt someone else's moral and ethical framework, and this is exactly what evangelicals do. So it can't be any great surprise when their targets reject their offers of salvation -- and perhaps ridicule their practices.

One doesn't need to go far afield to find unusual or exotic spiritual or religious behaviors. Certainly, Sufi whirling dervishes and dancing, chanting Hasidic mystics aren't run-of-the-mill religious practitioners either. But they're not insisting that the rest of humankind should follow their example and will go to hell and burn in a fiery lake of brimstone for all eternity if they don't.

Mormons comprise another sect that apparently feels we should be governed by their beliefs. How else to interpret their claim that church teaching trumps civil law?

So, I think it's pretty naive to still be talking about litmus tests when we've spent nearly eight years being governed by a guy who follows his gut because, apparently, that's where God gives him the divine guidance to do his job.

Of course, you are correct primarily. However, there are some private acts or beliefs that define a person and give insight into what their future decisions will be based on and must be included in a discussion of qualifications.
Three immediate examples come to mind.
Reading Tea Leaves, consulting an astrologer and speaking to God directly in tongues. They are all founded in faith and fly in the face of science and rationality. They call it faith because it is a belief in something that can not be rationally explained.
We must have a rational president and vice president.

I have been lucky enough to have become friends with a lovely couple who are as extreme Penticostal as is possible... A more committed to their religion pair I have never seen...not even close.....On virtually every level,they live and breathe their interpretation of the bible, which is of course strictly fundamentalist and without question to its content.... Unfortunately, when it comes time to discuss the subjects of homosexuality, womens rights, the possibility of evolution, questioning the wisdom of God inspired leadership( Bush),the rights of Muslims in the world theater,etc., etc.,......Mr. and Mrs. Hyde suddenly appear..... let's just say that to them, the bible has no room for any of it..... Any and every true Penticostal is on their same wavelength....it is a cult, no doubt about it....There are so many wonderful things about them, yet when it comes to real world issues, there is no room for debate......If Sarah Palin is the Penticostal that she professes and steps into the WH as president, the world will be in even bigger trouble than the neocons have foisted on it.....I said I was lucky to know my Penticostal friends because on one level, they are as sweet as can be, and on the other level, I have had a chance to see up close and in person just how radical their religion is....

We should refer to these times as the age of ignorance. Science, facts, common sense and historical evidence is being burned on a pile so that we can appease those who provide no proof whatsoever about their beliefs, denigrate those who believe in facts and science and hold themselves as mouth pieces of a non existent god. No, the author is wrong wrong wrong, these religious wackos need to be placed in a cave and locked away from any decisions regarding the present and or future of our country. No we do not have to respect ignorance and uneducated rantings anymore than I have to respect a child's belief in a tooth fairy. These right wing wackos are of the same vein that imprisoned great men of science, burned women at the stake, and started wars because they believe their god told them to, no we need to rid our country of these people as we need to rid the world of their religious brothers the Taliban.

If you "believers" can't give concrete evidence of your god, will you please let it go! Without proof, religion and god are just anti-intellectual exercises. Anti-intellectual translates to unfounded or ignorant. No progress - practical, intellectual or humanitarian - will be achieved so long as you maintain these mythical beliefs established by people who had no idea of the workings of the world. Is it too much to ask that you critically evaluate your beliefs? Are you incapable of analysis? I hope not. BTW, speaking in tongues is a result of a minor epileptic-like seizure - not divinely inspired.

You are correct. Pentecoastal deserve respect like anyone else.

But I cannot prepare myself to entertain the thought of a Sarah Palin as US Vice President, who is consumed by spirits and speaks in tongues.

Moreover Sarah Palin's administrative jurisdiction charged rape victims to test for pregnancy, how detestable is that?

I absolutely disagree regarding litmus testing for candidates on their personal beliefs - be they religious or otherwise. We need to know their beliefs - most especially when those beliefs dictate their political policies. I need to know if Sarah Palin's personal faith impacts her policy. It is simply STUPID to suggest that it does not. Her God is not my God and the constitution is supposed to protect us ALL against the merging of Church and State. Some would argue that this line has blurred over the past eight years and I would agree. I don't care what Sarah Palin's faith is - whether she speaks in tongues or believes in magic underwear. What I do care about is whether or not she plans to legislate that we all belief as she does. Unacceptable.

Litmus, Litmus, LITMUS.

Why not characterize Pentecostals and Evangelicals as fanatic? Is it ok for them to be fundamentalist and extremist just because they are American? Americans don't have anywhere near this type of forbearance for fundamentalist and extremist Jews or Muslims.

The problem with the Pentecostal belief is its unilateralism - 'my way or the highway'. (Coincidentally, that would also be the problem with the current White House administration). In this country we have the freedom of religion. I don't care to have these ideologues impose their beliefs on me, politically, or otherwise. Moreover, the fanatic desire to control others demonstrated by Pentecostals and Evangelicals does not in any way resemble Jesus' teachings. (For purpose of disclsure, I believe and have been baptized)

I think the point raised by Lorenzo212 is an interesting topic of discussion I'd like to see pursued in this column. The writer states, "And now, it seems, the word 'Christian' isn't enough, it must be Republican Christian."

An observation I have of this election cycle is a perception that if one is a Christian, one is automatically a Republican. The only exception to this is if one is African-American; only then can one be a Democrat and a Christian.

Since when did being a Christian and a Democrat become mutually exclusive for anglo-Americans? I honestly don't know and would love to hear discussion on this topic.

It IS possible to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, worship with others, read the Bible and take heart from it, and also believe that the positions Republicans take on social, economic and political topics are Morally Reprehensible!

**********

Gabriel Salguero has a point that Pentecostals shouldn't be dismissed as strange, uninformed or naive -- not even by political cartoonists. But GOOD LUCK, sir, in getting this to change. You think Penecostals have it rough? PLEASE. Catholics, Jews, Muslims, have all be harangued by political cartoonists, pundits, and politicians since the beginning of democracy in America -- and don't get me started on historic, non-US based religion bashing -- That's been happening since the beginning of Religion.

***********

I encourage others to read On Faith's article written by Eboo Patel which posits "religious prejudice is becoming a proxy for racial prejudice." What this means is that while it's not ok to use the N-word; it's becoming acceptable (expected?) that we harbor doubt and cynicism towards others based on their faith beliefs.

Just reading the other posts to this article prove this point.

We give them the respect they deserve for being DELUSIONAL WACKOS! Or should I do this in "Tongues".

lkjaflkjadjf lkjlkjj lkafjopop jjfoefj ja;ljfllje ljlkjlkje!

There now do you gibberish speaking freaks get it?

Speaking in tongues is not limited to Pentacostals, as there are charismatic enclaves in Catholic and mainstream Protestant denominations (and perhaps elsewhere). It would seem that those speaking in tongues either have a rollicking good time doing so, or an emotionally/spiritually satisfying experience. And reading the physicists' blogs, it also would seem that humans to a person have a very poor understanding of what is real. Therefore, everyone lighten up.

Cry me a river. Palin stereotyped all sorts of people in her coming out party speech in St. Paul. She would have us believe that people from small towns, for example, are better than those who are from larger ones. That their morals are better than the morals one would find in a major metropolitan area. What nonsense!
Maybe you should go after Palin (who after all could become the president next year, God forbid)instead of a political cartoonist. It's time to end this argument that "people of faith" can criticize others (say big-city homosexuals) but should never be on the receiving end of a critic's words.

When are we all going to wake up and realize that ALL religion is based on illogic and irrational thinking and that a truly religious person is basically a moron? Why do you suppose the most highly educated and advanced nations are also the least religious and vice versa? I'm tired of a person's "faith" being "off limits." You believe in things that can never be proven and defy logic and science and I'm supposed to vote for you to run my country and take my tax dollars? Cut me a break.

Many contemporary historic Jesus exegetes after reading all the available scripture and non-scripture references about the life of the simple preacher man have concluded that Pentecost was not an historic event.

e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/479_The_Promised_Spirit

Stop and consider also the paranormal "tongues of fire" involvement in the Pentecost. It is right up there with belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies". And the miracle of speaking foreign languages?? Give us a break!!!

It's true that speaking in tongues should not be dismissed as a practice of the ignorant or the marginal. It's also true that the genuine terror that many non-Christian (or mainstream Christian) Americans feel at the possibility of a Palin presidency has a real basis in the extremist positions promoted by her specific church. We should acknowledge and celebrate all kinds of religious expression WHILE remaining vigilant about violations of the separation between church and state, and asking valid and vital questions about the policy implications of certain beliefs, such Palin's church's outspoken (and dangerous) views on the State of Israel.

I have found that even-handedness and logic take a far backseat in framing attitudes and actions of those who instead of using religion as a guide to their moral activity make it part and parcel of their being. There is absolutely nothing wrong in Pentecostolism in and of itself as a form of worship. It is when it crosses the line into areas that should be deteremined more by critical thinking than dogma that it becomes open to ridicule. We are becoming a nation not unlike those in the Middle East who are fractured by the efforts of holy men who do not do God's bidding but their own.

I tried out an Assemblies of God church for a little more than a year. I couldn't take it anymore after awhile. Of many problems, one image I took away was that there was very little understanding of the human heart. There was little self-knowledge; I didn't get the impression very many people truly knew themselves. Their knowledge was all Good Book-learning, you might say. There was also no shortage of people who were avoiding personal issues by immersing themselves in religion.

However, this is a very reasonably stated essay and gives me pause to modify my views. Somewhat. Slightly.

The politiczied Pentacostals are allowed to make any sort of absurd statement they want and then hide behind Jesus' cloak. Then the apologists come out and point fingers at any one who disagrees with them.

It's time for reality. Really.

It's fine to think and believe what you wish, until it effects the main stream.

Give me a break! People with lunatic beliefs have no business running this country.

I 100% disagree. Any person that 'speaks in tongues' should never ever represent our country on a national stage. Any person who thinks that the rapture is coming any day should not have their hands any where near the nuclear keys.

Until Pentecostals begin embracing science and reason, expect the criticisms and stereotypes to keep flowing...and rightfully so. Pentecostals consistantly and unashamedly cry out against birth control, a woman's right to choose, stem-cell research, separation of church and state, evolution, history, global warming and basic logic. Pentecostalism, generally speaking, not only condones such ignorance, but actually celebrates it by calling it "faith." Pentecostals do not deserve to be taken seriously. Any faith in which a rejection of basic common sense is considered a good thing deserves to be laughed at, mocked and brutally criticized.

Pit Bull Palin and her number 1 Dude. You can tell in one glance, whose wearin' the panties in that household. Pit Bull Palin and her lipstick attitude. You can't kiss her, can't kill her. Pit Bull Palin and those sardonic, wicked framed eyes. Starin down those wolves. A killler at ten thousand feet; severed paws the final trophy. What a noteworthy and extraordinary act of achievement. Look out Russia, we're coming to get you!

The God fearing, God-is-on-our-side crowd. The nasty, preachy Christian swarm. On the march! A western version of the Taliban. The borne-again's, the multi-headed Christian evangelists, with their multimillion-dollar compensations for bringing the message of Christ to the masses. I wonder what the Big DOG feels about this one! Extremists, army's of fanatical Religious zealots, driven by greed, control and power in this life, intolerant of the very world God created. Preaching salvation and bliss in the next life for those who believe and eternal damnation to all non believers. The Theory of Evolution will not be tolerated. Goose-step is resurrected before our very eyes(The Lion and the Unicorn).

Here comes the magnum killing machine. Hey! she says, with that cute little smile, I'm not so mean.
Here comes the magnum killing machine. Hey! she says, with that cute little smile, I'm not so mean.

Pit Bull Palin and her number 1 Dude. You can get anywhere, by just being rude. Pit Bull Palin and her number 1 dude. Hey! I'm straining to see that little guy in the back. I think his name rhymes with Cain or something like that.

I disagree. A candidate who speaks in tongues will not get my vote, because that's not the kind of person I want making decisions for my country. You know darn well that if a candidate believed in Quetzalcoatl or something along those lines, he/she would be ridiculed. This is no different. I recognize that I am in the minority here, but believing in Santa Claus will not bring presents to my house.

Why should asinine religious practices and beliefs be beyond criticism? If a person fervently believed that the earth was flat, would you "respect" his/her right to believe whatever they wished - or would you rightly ridicule and deride this nonsensical belief? Christians want "respect" in the public forum for their beliefs. Yet, I have heard christians deride the hindu belief system because of its multiple gods. It seems as though they believe that only the three abrahamic religions deserve this respect. Until a prominent public person (other than Bill Mahar) holds religion up to the light and elicits the ridicule it deserves, we will be muzzled and constrained from calling baloney what it is - baloney.

An excerpt from the Alaska Report: Abraham Lincoln said, "Truth is generally the best vindication against slander." Sadly, it seems fitting to quote George Orwell. He said, "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." Feel free to share the Truth. Wash down the facts with a Red Bull. Be the Revolution. Top Ten Reasons the Investigation into Sarah Palin is Fair 1. It began with a 12-0 vote of eight Republicans and four Democrats. 2. The President of the Senate, a Republican, voted in favor of the investigation. 3. The Speaker of the House, a Republican, voted in favor of the investigation. 4. The investigation began in July, well before Governor Palin was placed on the national ticket. 5. Governor Palin pledged over and over to cooperate with the investigation. Here's a quote from a KTUU story July 18, 2008. "We would never prohibit, or be less than enthusiastic about any kind of investigation. Let's deal in the facts, and you
Let's deal in the facts, and you do that via investigation." And another from Sharon Leighow, Governor Palin's press secretary in an Anchorage Daily News story from July 29, 2008. "The governor has said all along that she will fully cooperate with an investigation and her staff will cooperate as well." 6. The Project Director, Hollis French, was not a member of the committee that started the investigation. 7. The Republican senator that supplied the crucial vote in favor of subpoenas has a John McCain for President sign in his yard, and he represents the area around Governor Palin's home town. 8. At the meeting when subpoenas were issued, every member present from the House Judiciary Committee voted to support the Senate's subpoenas, including the Chairman, a conservative Republican, and the vice-chair, a conservative Republican. 9. The investigator, Steve Branchflower, who is actually gathering the facts and writing the report, has no ties to either party. 10. Because f
10. Because filing a complaint against yourself, and then moving to have that complaint dismissed, is not a good way to get to the truth.("Palin Calling for an End to Investigation She Requested" ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story... ) Updated: 11. Palin flip flopped on Trooper Wooten. Here's her glowing recommendation! Shannyn Moore. Born Alaskan. Patriot. Constitutionalist. Lover of Freedom. Giving **** to the establishment. Standing up to fascists and tyranny...both foreign and domestic. © AlaskaReport.com All Rights Reserved.

I am a Pentecostal Pastor and while I respect his right to free speech I was deeply offended by the Oliphant cartoon. Regarding politics and life it's always wrong to assume that all the intelligent people are in your party and believe as you do or that all the morally right people hold your values and religious views. There are good people and smart people on the both the left and right and from all and no religious view points. Therefore common courtesy and basic respect for others are always appropriate. However, the adversarial nature of our modern political process has made bad behavior and disrespect acceptable.

That said, I was shocked that Governor Palin's faith would be a focus of attacks. There are 10's of millions of Pentecostals in the US, 10's of millions more who practice
"praying in the Spirit" in their traditional denominations, and approaching 100 million Evangelical's who are at least understanding if not supportive of the practice. I see no upside for the Democratic party to focus on her faith. I don't think it will help Sen Obama in fact it has energized the Republican base.

Being on the left, politically and socially, I was so taken by the cartoon in question that I immediately made it the background on my computer and sent it to friends.

People who speak in tongues are either stupid or enormously ignorant.

This article falls in the Republican line of,My vote is mine lets talk about yours.Their is no choice,Democrat or continue corruption.Religion should stay out like the contitution intention were. I'am american/mexican 70 years old born and rised in L. A. Latino Religion is a handicap,preach socialism as J C was. Work in the temple of the money changers.Was ruff to degest,the money changer won as they did with the faith base religions.Every dick and harry is now in religion,for the money.

to lorenzo 212, sounds like you are doing the same thing (judging) Pentecostals you accuse them of doing! I wonder who and what is in your home? and honestly don't care; it's your business and the Bible does say to work out you own salvation with fear and trembling, seems that leave little room for critising others.

Most Christians are trying to do good in this world, trying to bring a bit of heaven to earth, and while no one is perfect, I belive the author is quite accurate and agree with him in a whole hearted "Amen!"
I do wonder if a cartoon depicting and degrading Muslims or homosexuals to this extent would have appeard in this paper......just a thought

-- I'd love to see the country move beyond litmus test and caricatures and get these candidates to talk about present crisis and substantive issues. --

I agree that candidates should be evaluated based on their positions on issues. However, expressing an affiliation with a religious movement assumes a belief in the tenets of that religious movement In fact, it would be illogical not to assume that the candidate believes.

So I don't feel anyone is being stereotyped, at least from this perspective.

Furthermore, when a candidate touts a religious affiliation as a reason why he/she deserves you vote, they must also be willing to answer to criticism from those who do not share the same beliefs.

I grew up in a pentecostal home, and left the church bacause of their positions on social issues, and as much as I still respect certain qualities of members of that church, I would be wary of having that person in a position to make laws.

Mr. Salguero:

I agree that in the past Pentecostal congregations have been accepting of ethnic minorities (particularly hispanics and blacks) and of the poor.

But that doesn't excuse their current drive to deny health care and basic human dignity to gay Americans.

It's a bit ridiculous for Pentecostals to be out there complaining because people make fun of their eccentric ways, when they themselves go WAY beyond making fun of gays - they go out of their way to persecute us, by doing all the can to destabilize our family structure, by denying us jobs, housing, health care, old age benefits, etc.

How exactly is denying health care to an aging lesbian showing God's love?

Funny how I don't see the gay community trying to do the same to Pentecostals.

I'd gladly trade places with Pentecostals. I can handle people making fun of me. What I won't tolerate, though, is people trying to destroy the very basics and stability of my life and the lives of my family members.

And that's exactly what the organized Pentecostal churches have been doing.

To me, supporting the rightwing republican machine is essentially an announcement that we really don't believe in an afterlife and a judgement. No one can look at what has happened and fail to understand that anyone who contributed to the power of the Bush administration will have things to answer for when they cross over and are judged. Clearly the Bushies don't believe they will be judged. They have ordered people murdered. And there is no reason that can be thought of for ordering the murder of prisoners, even in seeking intelligence. But GWB and his minions clearly don't think they will die and be judged for these acts. They are unbelievers. And so are any ministers who would support them. They will be surprised when they are faced with their actions and their words.

I wish to thank Mr. Salguero for his excellant post. As a Pentecostal Pastor, it is often difficult to communicate where are coming from and what we believe -- not only in theology, but about issues of life and every American politics, simply because similar stereotypes poison the water before people are ever able to listen to your first ideas. They dismiss your credibility, due to their prejudiced view before you open your mouth. One of the reasons I was excited about the choice of Sarah Palin was perhaps, if given a chance, there would be another Pentecostal in a position of prominence who would help change a few people's attitudes a bit more. It is very frustrating to see people who seem to have free reign to denigrate things they don't understand...in such a prominant place as the Washington Post.

I was raised in Pentecostal churches.

It's worth noting that many prominent Pentecostal leaders have been at the forefront of demonizing and hating gay Americans.

I can't think of a single prominent Pentecostal pastor that ever challenged this hatred.

I agree wholeheartly with this essay. I'm a Christian,Democrat and also vote across party lines when its needed. I believe Christians need to seriously look at EVERY candidates views before afflicating themselves with anyone. I long ago stopped voting for a politian just because a politician "spoke" words that I identify with. Few actually do what they said. They used religion to attain their goals. I tend to think that people who make fun of others religious beliefs do so out of ignorance. I usually pray for them, since they truly don't understand me. I also think Christians need to stop attacking each other. We all have differing views, shaped by our differing life experiences. Christians need to remember that saying, "Be patient. God isn't through with me yet."

Unfortunately, having been the Pentecostal church most of my adult life, Pentecostal leaders have sold their souls to Republicans. And now, it seems, the word 'Christian' isn't enough, it must be Republican Christian. The prime Commandment of the Ten Commandments states, "I am the Lord thy God, and thou shalt not put false gods before me." As nice a picture Pentecostals paint of their motives, it isn't true of Pentecostals because they have allowed the supposed leaders to travel this road of false gods - namely, self, self-righteousness, and judgment. Christ said the "path is narrow," and it wasn't a Republican pathway he said to take, and Christ also said there is "only one mediator between God and Man," and he meant Himself not Bush or the Republicans. Pentecostals are suffering from what Wall Street is suffering from - deception. Pentecostals have fallen prey to the very beast they abhor, because he entered on cats feet, and tore their heart out. John 10:10 says the "thief comes to rob, steal and destroy," and it doesn't have to be by overt battle. The scripture states we "wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities in high places"- spiritual warfare.Christ left us with a commandment that superseded all others, "Trust the Lord with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself." Unfortunately, Pentecostals have practiced this in word and church only, not as visible witnesses in life. Instead, Pentecostals have fallen into the deceit of judgmental spirits, and accuse others of wrongdoing. "Quit worrying about the splinter in another person's eye, and worry about the log in your own." said Christ. If Pentecostals were so true to Christ, you would be opening your homes to all who come from prison, welcoming the worst in society, and leading the way with love. Being a light for others to follow and admire. But instead, Pentecostals have been seduced by self-righteousness and deception, and so, their lights are extinguished, and darkness reigns in their midst, though they know it not. Christ said that on Judgment Day, many will come and say to the Father, "Didn't I do this in your name?" And the reply of the Father is, "Depart, I never knew you." To the writer of the column, I ask, would your church function without you? Most pentecostal churches are centered on a man rather than Christ, and the churches they condemn, such as Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, are the opposite, and put their values in the street - feeding and clothing the poor, showing Christ where it matters to him, not in the pulpit.