Torture: A Temptation We Must Resist

Ah, 'Good Cop, Bad Cop.'

*tsk* Does go that way, sometimes. :)

I will say, though, Canyon, that if you *don't* believe in free will, as you say, then your idea that the torture you hope your God or you as a representative thereof might perpetrate... actually has none of the traditional justifications.

All it is is about *force,* not *righteousness,* even by the justifications of milder Fundies.

If you believe that people come to your God through torture, it's no different than those who think lesbians will come to your God through abridgement of our civil rights, and all the privations that can come from it.

When it comes down to it, either view, however cloaked, is just about *hurting people to get your way.*

You may insist, and some may deny, that that's what their God is about, but we do know you by your fruits, and the results are actually pretty similar.

Most will say that 'Even if we hurt you, it's your fault cause it's your free will to be 'saved or damned' based on how you respond to how we treat you, and what you'll be complicit in."

I suspect you don't believe in 'free will' because that's intended to absolve you from the horrors you want to ''rejoice in.

You can claim this is some kind of 'overwhelming power,' ...like an abusive parent, and you're past even the point of abstractly blaming the victims, ...merely identifying with the power.

All the same, in the end.

But it's not holy, it's not good, and, really, in the end, shows how dehumanizing the view of the 'punishing-abusive-father-God' is, however presented or rationalized

If we have no free will, then the tortures of you or your God don't even mean anything in your own paradigm. If we have no free will, then, when you hurt people, you hurt innocents.

Some will say that we choose not to obey our abusers cause we have free will, which is to them a bad thing, but there nonetheless...

To wit, they use the idea of 'free will' solely to evade the 'problem of evil' your own cosmology presents. Apparently, Canyon, you don't care, cause you just believe in power to torture.

If you want to treat us all as *animals,* though, you can't believe it *means* anything to *throw *rocks* at the animals you think we are. You can't say that 'torture is a deterrent against wickedness' cause... 'wickedness' isn't something people have control of in the first place.

Still, you need to believe that queer people *choose* to be queer in order to justify the abuse you want to see.

You *worship* a torturer-God, and you treat people, and probably yourself, like *animals, * and not in a good way. (Frankly, Pagans would never treat animals according to the metaphors you use to feel powerful in trying to treat people that way.

TO CANYON SHEARER:

You wrote, "Don't listen to Thomas Baum, I'm pretty sure he may be an antichrist.", actually I am just a messenger and I would say listen to Jesus but don't twist His message into hatred.

Jesus taught Love. Jesus taught forgiveness. Jesus said, "He who is without sin cast the first stone.", He did not say he who is with lesser sin and He also did not say he whose sin has been forgiven cast that stone, I personally cannot cast a speck of dust at anyone.

You also wrote, "A single verse destroys his whole theology: "God hates the wicked." - Psalm 11:5". I have a job to do, I do not have a theology, theology is the study of God, I have met God, the Trinity.

Also in the bible when it says that God hates, the meaning is that God loves less, it does not mean the vile, utter, hatred that is being spewed out in His Name. A little Divine Math, multiply loves more, loves less by infinity, try it!

Another thing the bible says is that God has no favorites but that doesn't mean that different people don't have different jobs to do.

By the way, if you wish to spew out hatred in God's Name, you have free will, go right ahead but that is NOT what Jesus taught or lived and died for or for that matter WHY Jesus became a human being in the first place.

God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. God's Plan is INCLUSIVE. We are all made in God's Image and none will be lost. I look past heaven to the Kingdom, see you there.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

What's more important? What you believe? Or if what you believe is true?

Repent and believe, for the kingdom of God is at hand.

I mean, heck, Canyon, my 'in-laws' are dead-certain my sweetie and I are bound for Hell, and *they* think your type are the Antichrist.

Which just goes to show, but really.

Not to put too fine a point on it, Canyon, but to speak of Antichrists, your own Christ said we'd know his own boys by their fruits.

And I seen a thousand like you. All saying the same things.

Antichrist.

Why, I was pretty sure that was one of *your* myths you and who you support in government were doing their best to live down to.

You cloak yourself in righteousness and say all must be enslaved to sin and the market, don't you?

Assaulting Babylon and all that?

Hate to break it to you, Canyon, but *you're* the one claiming to represent Jesus and saying the opposite.

Everything your lot demand, *comes out backwards,* ...you noticed yet?

Your myth, not mine, but,

Come, now. Really.

Paganplace...

How can we have a discussion when you're going to make things up, paint your own picture of me separate of my words, and fail to read or even attempt to understand my posts?

Don't listen to Thomas Baum, I'm pretty sure he may be an antichrist. A single verse destroys his whole theology: "God hates the wicked." - Psalm 11:5

Well, you turn those words in all kinds of directions, Thomas, but in this case, yep. That's basically about.... what this is about.

Maybe you can see what I'm talking about when I say there's a dark side to your book and your religion, though.

It's kind of on you, not just to rebuke and deny people like him, but recognize that he represents a monster that lurks even in your best-intended assurances about 'kingdoms..'

I've seen him and his 'fruits' all too often to say otherwise.

TO WHOMEVER THINKS THAT GOD IS A VILE, HATE-FILLED, VINDICTIVE PIECE OF UTTER GARBAGE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIAN:

You are wrong.

God is Love, Pure Love. Jesus is God-Incarnate. God's Plan is for ALL that are made in His Image which happens to be all of humanity to be in God's Kingdom.

One more thing, God doesn't hate everything and everyone that some people hate because some people believe that He is like them. God is not a He, a She or an it but God-Incarnate was a Man. God has said, "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts".

I have met God and thank God that He is nothing like what some of the people that have the audacity to call themselves "christian" because they know His Name.

Take care, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I don't think he gets it, Mad. :)

Canyon, I don't owe your religion *anything.*

If anything, it's your *religion* that is in debt for all the horrors it's justified and perpetrated in the name of words like yours, particularly your 'rejoicing' in the suffering of others.

You claim your own hands are clean, but whether it's your God or your government you imagine hurting people of other beliefs, you're certainly supportive of the idea of others doing it *for* you.

And that's both despicable, and sadistic.

It shows in the rampant abuse that underlies so much of this society, ...and it's the very mirror of the pro-torture Christian supremacists in government.

It's one of the roots of these cycles of abuse and violence that never end until *we* say to people like you, "No."

Suffering is *not* currency, Canyon.

It's not to be traded or compared or justified.

Torture is *wrong.* And it creates more of the very terror you seem to enjoy fearing so much, so you can feel powerful claiming dominion over the victims.

You gave up the moral high ground on this at the start.

You may deny you're responsible for what *you* do and say, yet you claim you have the magic book that lets you tell other people that people who don't obey *you* deserve torture.

You say it's your God, but the people I see making the threats and committing the abuses... talk like you.

I don't think it even *registered* that I said I have a faith of my own, that's helpd up just fine under these abuses... what makes you think my 'conscience' is scared of *your* telling of them?

Like with your animal-abuse metaphor, it's not *conscience* you're hitting, it's conditioned responses to abuse. Which dehumanizes and creates enemies.

I don't even believe the world *works* as you say.

I've learned otherwise.

As I said before, 'Torture doesn't bring people closer to God, it takes them further from humanity.'

Seems you're pretty far gone, yourself.

I do feel sad for you, Canyon, but whoever taught you this stuff you say was *wrong.*

But it's no surprise that if you think everyone but your group deserves eternal torture, that you're willing to be party to real torture, here.

Very medieval of you, indeed.

Your hatred and fear and shame are in your every word, ...I'm not the one that owes your savior something... you are.

He supposedly went through all that to save you from these ideas of Hell and blood sacrifice to appease a wrathful idea of your God... And you just don't get it. You remain a slave to it, and seek to enslave others to this idea of 'sin' he was supposed to be freeing you from.

Sounds to me like that just wasn't good enough for you, cause you're talking about going out and making others suffer to escape your idea of your Hell.

Guess it would have been a noble idea if it hadn't *gone so wrong.*

I think it's a profound irony that you hate the world that felt it was necessary for security and stability and obedience to crucify certain dissenters... so much that you want to torture others.

That's not redemption, Canyon. That's something else.

That's pretty transparent, man.

I read it Canyon. I even reread it as you requested. It is a very pessimistic scenario. Your demiurgos certainly created a nasty little universe for us. I certainly could never worship such an inherently evil creator. Not a healthy myth at all.

Mad Love,

Thanks much for skimming. Would you go back and read my first post and compare it to your reply?

Such guilt and fear... Man, do you wear a hairshirt and flail yourself to sleep at night? I would hate to live in your universe, much less die in it. My hope for you Canyon, is that when your psyche cracks from the unbearable strain of your belief system, that the healing light of reason and sanity shines in upon your tormented soul. You need to go easy on yourself, much less the rest of us.

My way of dealing with life is quite a good one, I have peace, patience, love, joy, gentleness, and self-control. I have no interest to torture anyone or see anyone tortured.

Even so, I have no authority to do any torturing, I cannot 'own' anyone, as you have purported. Their are two soul proprietors in this universe, one is a collector of souls which he collects as they willingly give themselves to him. There is no need to say, "I'd sell my soul for a donut" because this soul owner was given your soul when you chose to disobey your Creator.

The other Proprietor, not that you love Him, but that He loved you, gave Himself up so that through His blood you can be purchased from your debt.

One of these is content to let you do whatever you want, because in your terrorism of the kingdom of his enemy, you are accomplishing his will better than if he tried to do it himself.

The other is stringent in requirements and demands obedience and submission. Your deed was paid for with great price and great effort, and it is only right that you would live for the One who died for you.

This is reality, listen to your conscience, you know it is. Your transgression tells you that you are indebt beyond your ability to pay, and that the wages you are earning are being stored up to be poured out on the day of wrath.

I hope that you are not eternally tormented, that you turn to the Saviour in repentance and submission, but if you step out of this world without Christ, I will rejoice as my God is glorified for His longsuffering, the opportunities He gave for you to repent, and especially for His unwaivering justice in ensuring that sin is blotted from this experiment in iniquity, whether through the cleansing in the blood of the Lamb, or by fire.

I will pray for you as long as you walk this earth, but the moment the gavel falls, prayer will do you no avail, and in that moment I will thank God that He gave me the opportunity to warn you, which is more than I deserved, and more than you deserve.

And I'm afraid, canyon, that I have need of some sleep, now.

However, if you can get over yourself enough to consider why you seem to need to see others tortured, perhaps we could talk.

I'm not a Christian, but one thing the Gddess taught me in my many travels was to stop trying to make up for stuff over which I had no control.

You say your God is pretty big.

Probably big enough you could lay off half a minute.

And if *your* conscience nags, well, some folks who like to inflict pain call the experience of pain, 'weakness leaving the body.'

I don't know how someone like you might take that.

Probably in bad ways, but, hey. I'm a big girl.

If there's a God that's too small to see we share a species, right now, Canyon, well, someone's gotta show the spalpin, I say.

Or, take it from a Pagan who's not under the general impression that we gotta tell the Gods who's 'righteous.'

If your God is anything like my Goddess, you probably have some kind of permission to ease up half a minute that you haven't availed ourself of in a long while.

Seriously.

You want to torture me, your neighbor, someone else, *taptap* This seriously does not speak of any kind of 'forgiving God.'

You just don't get to torture me, spud.

You might wanna find some other way of dealing with life.

Meanwhile, blessed be.

"Thanks for the long drawn out incoherent replies. I do not believe in freewill, so that's your first mistake...or is it your fifty-first?"

Who's counting. I'm not the one who believes she's going to some insufferable torture for not having the right thing in her very-demonstrably- mortal brain, am I?

That's kind of the point.

Consider that what I've said to you isn't for you to 'start on.'

It's a freebie.

Read.

If you can't, consider that maybe *your* *conscience* doesn't quite have the courage of convictions you thought you had about how 'holy' torture is, as you said, in the first place.

You assert that torture is some kind of power.

I say to you it is not, and if you didn't learn *that* from the savior you claim to represent, you missed lesson one.

Lesson two is you don't get to own people.

No matter what God you think entitles you to.

Lesson three is, far from it being about who can be troubled to speak to you being vulnerable to your 'message,' it's just kind of about who can be troubled to speak to you at all.

YOu say 'boo' a lot, and Christians won't rebuke you.

I do say, not only "The Emperor wears no clothes," but.... "For some reason, this inordinatel-distresses the would-be-Emperor."

You do not have the power you claim, Canyon.

Would you like to speak with some humans?

Paganplace,

Thanks for the long drawn out incoherent replies. I do not believe in freewill, so that's your first mistake...or is it your fifty-first?

Freewill has sent many a man to hell, but never a man to Heaven. - Charles Spurgeon

I don't know where to start with your replies, so I suggest you reread my first post, I don't think there is anything you asked or told me I believe which isn't addressed in my first post.

Perhaps the only point of clarification I need to make is that I don't get anything out of you going to Hell or even to Heaven. My job is to warn you of your impending judgment. That done, I am not called to convince you into the kingdom. Reality exists outside of you and me, I don't get anything out of believing in God or you in pixies, there is a slightly more transcendant purpose you ought to cast your eyes upon.

So Canyon with his anti-Christ message uses throwing stones at dogs as a metaphor for what he is doing with his diatribe. Telling.

Wasn't the kid who exclaimed that the Emperor had no clothes just a heckler after all?

Apart from that.

Conferring on throwing rocks at dogs?

Seriously, if you can't get together on not claiming throwing rocks at dogs is a triumph of some kind, you're the moral authority on *torture?*

Gods.

Forget about it.

This ain't even about whether that's 'God,'

I'm wondering how you're gonna say your torturing self ain't about the Christian *Devil.*

Last I heard, stoning dogs was *bad,* if not totally psycho.

Oh, meanwhile.

I apparently need to reiterate that if you believe 'free will' justifies your idea that some are 'sinners,' then you must understand that the procedures of *torture* *take away* any such free will.

Speaking of brains. That's just how it works. You can terrorize people and even feel like you made them 'see God,' but actually all you get is victims.

Not Truth.

Victims.

Just in case you ever get to wondering 'Who let the dogs out.'

*toothy grin.* :)

One thing regular humans can pretty much agree on, you see, before we get divinities involved, is, people who'll throw a rock at a dog are pretty sick SOBs.

Those who'll think a yelp from said canine makes them *right* are, not just *sick,* but *sociopathic.*

And if you get even *more* out of that, then, maybe you should look to your *own* clergy, maybe they'll get something out of it, too.

Never know, these days.

Anyway, I hate to break it to you, you're not contemptible because of anything to do with the spankfest you've made of the religion of certain of my esteemed ancestors.

You're just.. Well, you've been offered plenty of information to chew on.

Bet you don't know how cheap your own lot *is.*

You're not part of the Christian mainstream cause you're *so utterly contemptible* they won't admit you exist, never mind when they act like you.*

But before there was Christians, there was people like me who knew what you are, and what you speak.

You get to spout. You don't get to win.

That was never on the table.

And that's why you're so desperate.

You speak of an empty sense of power that folks like the columnist here just don't feel secure letting go of.

*they* won't banish you cause they feel they need their demons.

But nothing in reality was ever about you.

Or what control *they* want.*

Neither you, your God, nor your ever-present *devil* ever *owned* us in the way they own you.

We are free.

And 'God' was never confused on the issue.

You, I feel sad for.

But, hey, Canyon, while we're dealing with certain perverse implications of totally-misunderstanding Pascal's wager, why don't we make it interesting....

How bout we add a side bet, if it'll make you happy.

Say, if the ultimate Divinity of the universe happens to agree with your idea I ought to be tortured beyond eternity, you get to....

Umm, what do you get out of that again?

I don't even know what you're supposed to get out o things except your apparent delight in thinking of other people under ultimate torture.

Umm, how bout you get a half a minute without a conscience, if that's what gets you off after you're dead...

And if *I'm* right, you get half a minute of compassion for the people you believe must be tortured for your 'Godliness.'

Sounds like low stakes, but funny how things look without a brain. :) Like I need to say *that* right now. :)

"Thanks for telling me what I believe about torture, I did not know that about myself. "

Do I *really* need to read your own words back to you, Christian, or would an ibid suffice?

It's not so far from your lips, really.

As for 'yelp,' try a low growl.

Fear's holy, right?

Or, since you're obviously not interested in talking about what you believe is at stake for all living souls everywhere once challenged, I think more of a Rawf, Rawf, lamer' is in order.

You could learn something from dogs, though. You may claim you have The Mighty Rock, but all I smell is you needing a refund on your Right Guard.

Care to talk some more about what people 'deserve,' preacher? :)

And I'll leave this for you, Canyon: Your stripe of Christian advocates *hate and oppression and violence and injustice against people* ....especially queer people, in America, because you claim, in that case, that how people are made constitutes 'free will.' (in order to justify the horrific imaginary punishments you try to replicate on Earth for those you like to call 'sinners.'

Understand this:

If you believe in the magic divine power of words, as well as free will, to justify your abuses instead of looking at them: understand this:

The torture you call an 'instrument of God,' ... if nothing else, *takes away any illusion that words have anything to do with will.*

It doesn't confer faith or piety or even real *obedience* which is the thing you think will protect you from your *own* terror of your *own* 'God.'

Yes. People scream. Puppies yelp. The abused get pissed off enough to not-just-ignore you.

This doesn't make anything right or true about your 'hellish' vision of the world, or the things you advocate doing ...because of *how it makes you feel.*

If you want to believe, as you've said, that I must be tortured eternally for being queer, for *saying* I don't believe my abusers and torturers and the *unjust liars who obviously see fit to hurt a real minority,* ... cause if you say, 'that's your free will,' ...(to justify hurting innocents and causing at least real hardhsips,)

...Then you *must* accept that the *reality* of *torture* is that it *takes away* the very illusion of 'free will' as expressed in words and professions that you believe is the literal 'crux' of the 'salvation' you tell people that *suffering for you* is supposed to acheive.

Torture takes away the very free will that you claim is the reason people being different from your ideal is 'sin.'

It can't 'bring people to God.' Only hurt their brains so badly they tell *you* you converted them. Whatever that does for you. You sick..

Ahem.

This, apparently, is your religion: "We must continue hurting people, because they are sinners of their free will, so if we hurt them enough, they'll 'see the light' and submit.

Guess what.

That's not what torture *does.*

It's not what *injustice* or punitive social *scorn* does, either.

I don't know who gave you the idea that 'believing in a forgiving God' gave you the right to hurt all others, to whatever degrees, so you could call those different 'People freely choosing to be 'bad' in no way that makes sense to anyone but those who think God tortures people for arbitrary reasons... but it's *wrong.*

You tried to flater me for responding, Canyon, but you didn't *read.*

Faith isn't something people like you *own.*

You literally talk in circles. You say, "It's wrong to not be like me cause that's 'free will,' which is why I have the right to torture people out of free will and call them saved... from... "

Well, whatever you thought was wrong with being alive in the first place.

My *conscience* doesn't say 'This guy may be right.'

My *conscience* says, and has always said, "I really hate looking at it, but I know exactly how and why he's wrong and hurting people, and no one else is saying a damn thing, never mind un-fricking his head, so guess who."

Could be futile, but, you know what? You guys got shepherd and sheep aplenty.

Throw rocks?

I say,

Somehow you guys turned 'Man's best friend' into some dirty words, but.

Woof.

"Yelp, Yelp" would have sufficed.

Thanks for telling me what I believe about torture, I did not know that about myself. I had thought that my post was my position, but apparently I was writing in some esoteric code without knowing it.

Which is a long way around saying, I'll be Heckle... but you can stop being Jekyll any old time.

Anyway, while you're wrapping your head around how your justifications for being a troll involve it being OK to torture people, as long as you or duly-authorized-by-you-representatives of *you* say "Torture is good for people..."

Consider the topic. Consider your head.

You like the idea of your God and therefore Christians *torturing* people *cause you like how it makes you feel.*

You speak of what these priests try and *make OK,* but at least you apparently believe that you get to be the one to literally *cast the first stone.*

You're *backwards,* dude.

Probably isn't even your fault. But there is no one you can hurt that will fix that.

See, Canyon, "Faith" doesn't come *from* belief, no matter what extremes you may be driven to to try and enforce that belief.

The torturer *is* the tortured.

That includes you, and that includes your 'God.'

That includes God.

Idiot.

What you say won't fix nothing.

No, street preachers do it for attention, Canyon, though sometimes it takes a heckler to wake people up to, "Look at this insanity we let drone on in the background."

Yes, they go home and claim victory in their fetishistic desires to see others suffer, to assuage whatever motives had them behave so in the first place, but, you know what?

You preach by negative example.

My conscience says, 'Listen to him! He speaks the *nast and cruelty others sanctify to enable it to go on.*

By all means, speak.

Cause, really... Isn't the whole conservative agenda about *wanting to see others punished,* .. and of course getting a tidy lot of attention, gratification, illusory power, and wealth, in the process?*

We Pagans have a simpler saying: "Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, what is *wrong* with you? Throwing rocks at dogs. Gods. Loser."

:)

No, you're right, though. I have been hit by rocks and worse thrown by people like you, (actually been tortured as you suggest, with just the same words, as a matter of fact.) Yes, I've been hit with numerous blunt and not-even-metaphorical objects by people like you who thought it was 'conscience admitting the truth' because... genius... Hurting people hurts them.

Your myths of martyrdom are most dangerous because they make you believe that only your characters can survive torture, because, you *worship* torture.

Hate to break it to you, but we Pagans don't actually think much of martyrdom, but that doesn't mean it takes a Christian to keep faith while being tortured by, ...umm, You guys been the torturers a long while, now, ain't you?

If you had the least measure of the compassion you propose to represent through worshiping torture and death and the hurting of people, this would be clear. You torture someone, you get a tortured person. You hurt someone, including a dog that for some reason you felt like throwing rocks at, yes, that might hurt.

Where you get, 'A-ha! Someone is hurt! Hurt them more! They're weak!...'

We'll, someone taught you that. Again, I feel sad for you. What you gonna say, "Puppies yelp when I kick them, all must kick puppies! Beh0ld mah p0w4h!"

*tchk.*

Sad, sad, sad.

Tougher dog than that, though, thanks.

Shall we play this out?

Your 'True Gospel' is played out in all too many real situations, and I've been there to pick up the wreckage of many,

And, just occasionally, been the one to tell the likes of you-who-think-yourselves mighty what it's like to look at a dog that might fight back.

You ain't so hard. Really.

So busy worshiping force you never met resistance.

But, speak on.

You expose the dark and nasty underbelly of the sanctified cruelty of our 'Christian' society.

It's almost a service you do, when I put it that way, but you're a whitewashed tomb, at best.

Maybe some of these priests got something to say about that.

Paganplace, thank you for the replies. The first one was a predictable post from you, but the next two were very encouraging.

Preachers have a quote we enjoy, "Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit." When street-preaching, a heckler is our greatest blessing, because it's a crowd gatherer, and someone who hates God enough to try to suppress a preacher is the person I'm out there preaching for. Someone like that would never come into a church to hear the modern day antigospel, and I love to take the true Gospel out to them.

I really enjoyed your replies though, would you read my initial minisermon and then read your reply...you made up things I said in order to knock them over, when I said very few of the things you accused me of. I don't mind if you're offended, in fact that's one proof that you're paying attention and your conscience is screaming, "Listen to him!" But I want to make sure you're offended for the right reasons, and not reasons you've made up for the sole purpose of ignoring the call to repentance.

TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

But, you gentle souls have led me to reconsider my position.

Perhaps the gauge of immorality can be lowered just enough to torture bush and cheney, (add canyon - for good measure), BUT not to extract information. The torture would be JUST FOR FUN!!! (I am already smiling with anticipation).

See, folks. Torture doesn't bring people 'closer to God.' Just further from humanity.

What one may find out there... and what one may bring back, is a different matter.

What I can't get over, Canyon, is how *sorry* I feel for you. You *worship* God as a torturer, seem to get off on the idea of people suffering naked before your vicarious judgement, and live in a universe of fear.

Can't say I approve of your little solution, which seems to be to try and participate in the very torture you believe that appeasing a torturer will end the torture.

Course, that's an idea plenty of torturers seem to employ. Even some victims with Stockholm Syndrome get involved.

You see it in abusive families all the time... people try to deal with the utter disorientation of torture and abuse by becoming complicit in it, and feeling like they're the powerful ones now when they *become* the torturer... and repeat the cycle. Call it 'Traditional Values,' even.

Your 'preaching' is misplaced, ...certainly in my case. I have no such fears.

Cause, you see, some will *say* that torturing you is something you 'deserve' in order to 'bring you closer to their God,'

But that doesn't work, either.

Trust me on that one. I should know. It wasn't an 'idol' that got me through, ...and She didn't "buy my soul" by claiming someone suffered worse, so I should therefore somehow give in to what abusers, but She *earned* love and respect by being there and saying that this was *not* what either I or the world were really about.

You should be *glad* a lot of Christians don't worship at this altar of yours, of unaccountable suffering, punishment, damnation, and death.

History shows it has a way of bringing out the very worst in people.

Me, I'm not afraid of my Gods, or yours.

Even naked.

You could conceivably torture my brain into saying anything. You could do a lot of damage and hurt a lot of people. But you do not have the power you claim for yourself.

My soul isn't yours, or your book's, to take. And if you feel you need to in order to make the world right, somehow, well, so sorry. I feel sad for you.

What you say, Canyon, it isn't about 'God,' it's about you. And control.

It's also... backwards.

"Torture on earth is a deterrent for the wicked to turn from their sinful life to a forgiving God"

How very ...*medieval* of you, Canyon.

While, of course, I find the idea *twisted* and *sick,* I can see how that may be the underlying rationale of the conservative Christians who seem to make up the pro-torture camp.

Kind of hard to imagine why a 'forgiving God' would rather forgive *you* for inflicting horrible tortures on people, pissing off the world, losing the very valuable intelligence info that is supposed to justify the torture (in fact, experts agree torture is terribly ineffective as an intelligence-gathering method, because all torture *does* is tell the torturer what he wants to hear.)

...than just 'forgive' people for not-saying 'I'm Christian' in the first place.

Really.

Not just violence and war, but now *torture* ...even *conversion by torture* is 'good' to you? Cause you call someone "wicked?" How does it get any more "evil" than *torturing people for having a different religion?*

No wonder you guys keep getting everything backwards.

Gods.

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

In order to swing this question to a question on faith, the question ought to be, "What is torture's role in spiritual matters?"

One of the greatest proofs for the truth of Christianity, is that EVERY facet of reality can be turned into a sermon. In the over-used cliché, "That'll preach!" A famous evangelist once said, "The worst prayer I ever prayed was, "Lord, please give me sermon illustrations."" He said he was beaten, bitten by dogs, thrown into jail, and saw the absolute depravity of man.

Torture on earth is a deterrent for the wicked to turn from their sinful life to a forgiving God, while they still can. In this age of common grace, in which God allows iniquity to exist in every form imaginable, including forms that have only been invented since the writing of the Bible, we are still subject to the love and protection of a longsuffering God. But, imagine the worst punishment you can, for me I don't have to think much farther than a dentist hitting a raw nerve. This momentary and tiny area of pain is so overwhelming that it consumes every thought and makes me cry out for its cessation. To think that people endure that all over their body, and not an accidental slip of the drill, but a purposeful infliction of pain is more than I can imagine.

The reason you can feel pain on earth is so you can flee from the wrath to come in eternity. Momentary torture on earth is solely to serve as a warning.

Christians believe, rightly so, in physically disciplining children. The reason being, it is our job to correct the actions of a child with our finite thumping, so that they do not find themselves before the infinite thumping of God. It is a loving gesture to warn of the impending judgment if transgression continues.

If someone condemns torture or says, "My God would not send someone to Hell, He is the God of love." Then that person is simply formulating a complex and imaginary idol so that they can appease their conscience. The universalist church says, "Even Adolf Hitler will be forgiven and allowed into Heaven." Of course if God won't punish Hitler, then He has no business punishing me, because I'm way better (in manifestation) than Adolf Hitler. But know this, no idolater will see the kingdom of Christ or of God.

Is eternal torment justified? Consider if I lie to a child, there is no ramification for me. If I lie to my spouse, there is a consequence. If I lie to a judge, I'll go to jail. If I lie to the government under the right circumstances, the punishment is death. The transgression has not changed, only the entity being trespassed against. God considers lying lips an abomination, and all liars will have their place in the lake of fire, eternally.

I could say, "I haven't physically cheated on my wife." And most of America would say I was a good person. But God considers not only the actions of the flesh, but also the intents of the heart. Jesus said, "Whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Your conscience bears witness to your transgressions, it has recorded every thought, word, and deed, and on Judgment Day, God will require an account for every sin, and every idle word. As you stand before God, naked in your shame, what will you offer as a defense? You knowingly broke the law, your conscience told you not to every time, and you ignored it. Every time you used God’s name as a curse word, you are proclaiming your hatred for Him. The Bible says that His name is above every other name, it is the only blessed name in existence, and when you curse Him, you try to drag His name into the mud. Consider that as you ask for mercy, because the Just Judge of all the Universe has been outraged by a lifetime of lawlessness, and even if He wanted to forgive you, your crime requires justice. You have transgressed an infinite God, and you will pay an infinite fine, permanent torture for all eternity in the lake of fire, where the worm dieth not, the fire is never quenched, you will forever feel yourself being separated from God, falling into the abyss, swallowed in the blackest of darkness.

But it is not God's will that you should go to Hell. He provided a propitiary atonement in order that you can be absolved. Two-thousand years ago, Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, He was the Son of God, and He lived a perfect sinless life, He was tempted but He didn't succumb, He lived His life with the sole purpose of dying in your place. You earned death, you earned judgment, you earned a punishment unspeakable, but Jesus Christ willingly gave Himself up to die in your place on the cross at Calvary.

Before He was crucified, Jesus Christ was praying in the garden at Gethsemane, and the doctor Luke notes that His sweat became like drops of blood. This is only a medical condition that has been studied in the last seventy years, but today we know it is caused by extreme duress. The condition is called Hematihidrosis, Hemadrosis for short, and while blood loss is minimal, it makes the epidermis hypersensitive to touch and especially to pain. Five hours later, Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, was beaten with the Roman flagrum, a whip made of 3, 6, 9, or 12 glass shards which removed chunks of flesh from His body. Special training was necessary to administer this torture, because it was possible to kill someone with one slash of this device. Most people subjected to this punishment died of blood loss or because their organs fell out of their body. Your God, a sinless and perfect Man, made hyperaware of His pain, took these slashes so that you won't have to.

Christ then was taken to Calvary Hill, where He was hung on the cross naked. Christ felt the physical pain, He felt the emotional humiliation, and He was separated from His Father, for you. So you don't have to stand before the Judge in your shame and your nakedness, Jesus Christ hung there for you! The whole wrath of God was poured out on Christ, He was abandoned by God and man, in the severing of the eternal Trinity, your sins, which were upon Christ, were separated from the Father.

Because Christ took your punishment, you can be justified in the eyes of God. Repent of your sins, and place your faith in Jesus Christ to save you, and His righteousness will be attributed to your sake, and you will be made right in the eyes of God.

Do this, and by God's grace, you will not face the eternal punishment you have earned, because Christ has paid your fine in every way. Not only so, but because on the third day, Christ defeated death, your soul will live eternally in a world where torture is only a memory of an era of iniquity.