Religion Must Be Part of Afghan Solution

Al Azhar (the most prestigious Islamic University , built over a thousand years ago) Issues Death Fatwa for Apostates
Posted on FaithFreedom.org on 09-25-2009

Here is the fatwa, proof that death “is a very normal part of Islamic law for apostasy and for every muslim its an honor to CLEAN the umma.”

Fatwa committee concerning the case of a man who converted to Christianity: “Since he left the Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed pertaining to rights and obligations of the Islamic law.”

Ukba2
"Whoever changes his religion shall be killed." (Mohammad related by Abu Dawud)

"It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam....." ( Mohammad related by Abu Dawud).

(Relayed about Mohammad by Ibn Hisham)
“Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).”
This clearly shows that the author of the Quran considered the apostate Ibn Sa’d as guilty and deserving the death penalty had it not been for the intervention of Osman.

These Hadiths being Sahihs could not contradict the Quran. Or they would have been cancelled. I maintain they are in line with (Quran4:89-91). If not then you prove me wrong by presenting a verse that is more explicit about apostates.
All the verses that deal with the killing of non-Muslims do apply to the apostates because Muslims consider them worse than infidels.

Ukba:
It is not worth a hill of bean what you think about who is worse, the apostate or hypocrite. What concerns the apostates is what the one who wrote the Quran considers the worst. This is because anyone calling himself a Muslim would emulate him. This Quran 4:89 was used against apostates but also against women in so-called honor killings as well off course against infidels and Jews, This is despite there are plenty other verses that explicitly incite against the latter two categories.
A short list:
2:191, 2:193, 4:66, 4:84, 5:33, 8:12, 8:15-18, 8:39, 8:59-60, 8:65, 9:2, 9:5, 9:14, 9:29, 9:39, 9:73, 9:111, 9:123, 25:52, 37:22-23, 47:4, 48:29, 69:30.

Abhab,

You wrote: “You claim that 4:89 refers only to the hypocrites.”

I am not claiming anything. It is matter of fact that 4:89 refers to the hypocrites. The term “they” in 4:89 refers to those people mentioned in the previous verse. They are identified as the hypocrites. We are not dealing with rocket science here; just plain reading of the text. And the text is explicit and clear. Everyone has access to the text and no one is privileged to some kind of hidden meaning or anything. If someone thinks that apostates are worse type of people than hypocrites, that’s their opinion. I for one don’t agree. A hypocrite is not trustworthy and you don’t know where he stands. I would rather deal with someone with evident and unmistakable principals than a slime ball and a snake. That’s just me.

Again your original statement was: ““Your Quran explicitly incites people to kill Muslims who convert to any other religion.” So far you have not proved your case. You are going all over the place with questionable opinions. Is it that hard for you to quote just one verse? This should not be hard for you if what you claim is true.

And this is the kind of explicit text I am looking for, which you should be familiar with, given that you are a Christian person:

“…and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and STONE THAT PERSON TO DEATH.” [Deut.17:3-5]

And if you can’t then give it up and admit to your error.

Ibn Ishaq describes the killing of the Banu Qurayza men as follows:

“ Then they surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy b. Akhtab and Ka`b b. Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. As they were being taken out in batches to the apostle they asked Ka`b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? By Allah it is death!' This went on until the apostle made an end of them. Huyayy was brought out wearing a flowered robe in which he had made holes about the size of the finger-tips in every part so that it should not be taken from him as spoil, with his hands bound to his neck by a rope. When he saw the apostle he said, 'By God, I do not blame myself for opposing you, but he who forsakes God will be forsaken.' Then he went to the men and said, 'God's command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel.' Then he sat down and his head was struck off."

Ukba:
You claim that 4:89 refers only to the hypocrites.Granting that is so yet Muslims, who know much more Muslim jurisprudence than you think you do, believe that apostates are worse than the hypocrites and worse than even the infidels. The history of your prophet and his henchmen bear that out. Below is a fatwa by one well known Muslim scholar, Abu Ala Mawdudi :
“The expositions of the Prophet, the Rightly-Guided Caliphs (Khulafa'-i Rashidun), the great Companions (Sahaba) of the Prophet, their Followers (Tabi'un), the leaders among the mujtahids and, following them, the doctors of the shari'ah of every century are available on record. All these collectively will assure you that from the time of the Prophet to the present day one injunction only has been continuously and uninterruptedly operative and that no room whatever remains to suggest that perhaps the punishment of the apostate is not execution.”
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

Abhab,

You wrote: "They that wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they); but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah(From what is forbidden). But whoever turns back from his belief seize them and slay them…….(4:89)"

And added: "It will be sufficient to quote what the standard commentary of Baidhawi says on the first passage: "Whosoever turns back from his belief (irtada), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel.
1 Mufradat-gharib-ul-Quran-lil Sheikh-ar-Raghib, p.191."

This is supposed to be the one proof that supports your argument. Remember what we are discussing here in case you forgot. You wrote that: “Your Quran explicitly incites people to kill Muslims who convert to any other religion.” So let’s see what you have. You cited 4:89 as one example.

First of all who are those people you refer to as ‘they’ at the beginning of your citation? In case you relied on other sources and failed to read the verses yourself, ‘they’ here refers to the hypocrites and not apostates. There is a big difference.

Second, the word normally used for apostasy, ‘irtadda’, is not there. Instead we have “tawalla” which in general means to turn back or turn away. And there is no ‘from his belief’ either; that is a translator addition which is not found in the Quran. The discussion about the hypocrites starts earlier with this verse:

(4:88) How, then, could you be of two minds about the hypocrites, seeing that God [Himself] has disowned them because of their guilt? Do you, perchance, seek to guide those whom God has let go astray - when for him whom God lets go astray you can never find any way?

Part 1a,

The hypocrites are people whom the Quran calls attention to many times. The Muslims in this young community are warned about their double dealings and to be aware of their misdeeds. In worst case some of them were in fact acting as spies helping the Qurayshis of Mecca with whom the Muslims were locked into a prolonged conflict that lasted over twenty years. In one place it is stated:

“And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their evil ones they declare: we are with you; verily we did but mock. God (Himself) mocks them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.” [2:13-15]

Regarding this verse Yusuf Ali writes:

“When the desertion of the hypocrites at the battle of Uhud nearly caused a disaster to the Muslim cause there was great feeling among the Muslims of Medina against them. One party wanted to put them to the sword: another to leave them alone. The actual policy pursued avoided both extremes, and was determined by these verses. It was clear that they were a danger to the Muslim community if they were admitted into its counsels, and in any case they were a source of demoralization. But while every caution was used, no extreme measures were taken against them. On the contrary, they were given a chance of making good. If they made a sacrifice for the cause (“flee from what is forbidden,” see next verse), their conduct purged their previous cowardice, and their sincerity entitled them to be taken back. But if they deserted the Muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion which is enforced by all nations actually at war. Even so, a humane exception was made in the two cases specified in 4:90”

Part 2

(4:89) They would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Do not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil for the sake of God; and if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you may find them. And (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

Yusuf Ali writes: “In time of war, if a man is willing to submit to discipline and refrains from infringing orders issued, he has proved his fidelity and may be treated as a member of the community at war.

“On the other hand, if he by false pretences comes into the inner counsels merely to betray them, he may be rightly treated as a traitor or deserter and be punished for his treason or desertion; or if he escapes, he can be treated as an enemy and is entitled to no mercy. He is worse than an enemy; he claimed to be one of you in order to spy on you, and been all the time helping the enemy.”

So this is not merely a matter of freedom of conscience; this involves the cohesion and the survival of a community that had been under attack from a formidable enemy from outside and their cohorts from the inside.

(4: 90) unless it be such [of them] as have ties with people to whom you yourselves are bound by a covenant, or such as come unto you because their hearts shrink from [the thought of] making war either on you or on their own folk - although, if God had willed to make them stronger than you, they would certainly have made war on you. Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.”

This is saying that when they leave alone and let you be you leave them alone also. I think this is a fair statement of live and let live. I still don’t see how this is an explicit incitement “to kill Muslims who convert to any other religion.” This has nothing to do with someone merely converting to another religion. It’s about double dealing hypocrites with bad intensions. I think you failed to provide a convincing argument to support your case; a case based on false claims.

Citing 5:57 and 16:106 is desperation and nothing more. Those verses have nothing to do with inciting people to kill someone for merely converting to another religion and you know it. I think you are over your head here and you should only stick to what you can prove and bear no false witness. I think it is wrong to write slanderous remarks without ever checking the veracity of one’s argument.

Hello Daniel12,

Ah, I am the most childish of fools. Really? How poetic. A bit canned, not really applicable in this exchange me thinks, but it is a poetic attempt.

No, I do not think that I am off the mark. Your worldview is clear from all of your posts, unless you have been presenting yourself deceptively. Whether you are "Christian", practicing or not, does not alter my reply. You defend Christianity, (of which I have no quarrel, it's essence is well worthy of defense), while you attack Islam.

"That Islam is not working right after a thousand years cannot help but put it on the enemy to man list."

You suggest that Islam is "enemy to man" and should be banned, ended terminated, forced into submission to a set of moralities and rules and ethics outside of itself? That will not happen, Daniel. That much is obvious. Islam will evolve on it's own, as any organism does.

My points were simple. Your charges that Islam is "misinterpreted" and it's principles are misapplied could be pasted onto any religion, any government or "political party", (knowing you we should insert 'Democrats' here, I am sure). And could easily be applied to Christianity.

So, Christianity should be likewise banned. After all, it is Christian military leaders that are, at least in the view of a large percentage of the "muslim world", prosecuting another Crusades in the near east.

The second part of my post was a call for allowance. At 1300 years old Christianity was doing some ugly evil. Far worse than you can see Islam doing, in the bloody hands of radicals and terrorists. There is a natural progression toward 'appropriate application of principles', and living in truth.

I have yet to see the majority of Christians living lives as Jesus described.

Apply your critiques evenly, and all are lacking, and all are misinterpreting.

"What exactly does all your criticisms of Christianity have to do with the question posted here and my reply?"

Well, quite a bit, if one takes a wide eyed view...

Many Muslims are good people. This is inspite of Islam, not because of it.

These good people find good things in Islam and live accordingly, but they would be good in any religion and culture.

The problem is history. It speaks for itself and it speaks loudly and clearly. The history of Islam is one of violence. The present behavior of Pakistani or Afghani support for Terrorism is nothing new. Saudi funding and Iranian support of Hamas is the same old behavior.

So when it is written "We must understand that Islam itself is not the enemy." It would be funny if it were not so sad. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

What makes your criticism even more laughable is exactly my words in the first post:

"A world in which we have weapons of mass destruction demands that if something is not soon right, functioning properly, whether it be a religion, political party or piece of technology or anything else, it must be discounted and something else put in its place."

That means any religion, any political party, etc.

To Justtillthen from Daniel. What exactly does all your criticisms of Christianity have to do with the question posted here and my reply? What exactly does Christianity have to do with the truth of my reply? Answer: Nothing. What you obviously are is the most childish of fools. Thinking everything is made all right when someone criticizes you by pointing out something in the other person to criticize. All you have done is pile Christianity on top of Islam as a problem to the world. And obviously you thought you were making a point with me--obviously you think I must be some sort of Christian or something. Sorry! Off the mark! But if you want to speak of Christianity, Christianity has vastly improved in the way of human rights over the centuries. Christianity is vastly less harmful than Islam today. If you do not think so, try building a Christian church and getting a congregation to follow in the traditional Middle Eastern lands. Compare that with the Mosques which flourish in the Christian world.

Ukba:
The passages in the Koran dealing with apostasy are 4:89,5:57,16:106
"They that wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they); but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah(From what is forbidden). But whoever turns back from his belief seize them and slay them…….(4:89)"
"O ye who believe! Whoso is turned away from his religion-Allah will bring (instead) a people whom He loves and who love Him, lowly to believers, lofty to unbelievers, strenuous in the way of Allah, fearing not the blame of Him who blames" (5;57).
"Any one who after accepting faith in Allah utters unbelief…….On them is Wrath from Allah and them will be a dreadful penalty. (16:106)"
It will be sufficient to quote what the standard commentary of Baidhawi says on the first passage: "Whosoever turns back from his belief (irtada), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel.
1 Mufradat-gharib-ul-Quran-lil Sheikh-ar-Raghib, p.191.

I, as well, sit with baited breath and in excited anticipation and provoked curiosity at the doubtless insightful response of Abhab as he defends his certain and crystalline assertion as how, through Qu'ranic verse, Muslims are instructed to the murder of apostates.

I am ever a student of the wisdom of humans interpretations of their Scriptures.

Abhab,

You’re a Christian and I am sure you consider the bible to be the breathed word of God. These are the kind of verses from the bible that I was looking for which explicitly instruct “the chosen people of God” on how to deal with the apostates among them. This is the kind of explicit incitements and commandments that are clear and to the point:

“All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be PUT TO DEATH, whether small or great, man or woman.” [2 Chronicles 15:13]

“If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly PUT HIM TO DEATH. Your hand must be the first in putting him to DEATH, and then the hands of all the people.” [Deut. 13:6-9]

“…and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and STONE THAT PERSON TO DEATH.” [Deut.17:3-5]

So if you have something like this from the Quran, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Until then read your bible daily and reflect on its wisdom.

Abhab,

Again, in case you forgot what you wrote so here it is again:
You wrote: “Your Quran explicitly incites people to kill Muslims who convert to any other religion.”

You are clearly saying that the Quran EXPLICITLY incites or commands Muslims to kill apostates. Maybe you have a problem understanding what you claimed and what I asked of you to do. I challenged you and I asked you to provide evidence or proof to back up your claim by citing explicit verses from the Quran. It is that simple. I provided you with pertinent verses from the Quran to discredit your claim. And yet you chose not to prove your case and went on to other questionable sources. If what you claim is true then it wouldn’t a problem for you to cite the exact verses. And if you can’t then it is fair to hold you accountable for your false claim and call you a liar and deceitful that you are. So please don’t go on tangential points and just stick to the facts. I am not asking for miracles, just facts.

BTW, what in the world is a Mohammedan University? Muslims do not ever refer to themselves as Mohammedans. It sounds so Dark Age ignorant European epithet. We Muslims call ourselves Muslims and you Christ followers can call yourselves what you would like: Christians, Nazoreans, “Messiahans” or whatever pleases you. But if you meant it as an insult, well I come to expect that from you, a hateful person that you are.

Ukba(continued)

As for seemingly tolerant verses you quoted you had failed to mention they were abrogated (cancelled) by later so-called Medina verses. As an example that oft quoted verse “No compulsion in religion” and other similar ones that Muslims in the West are quick to quote were cancelled by a large number of jewels such as (Quran 9:29)
“Kill those who believe not in Allah and His prophet (meaning Mohammad)……”

Ukba:
If what you claim is true and no punishment for Muslim apostates why the ex-Muslims around the world are appealing to the rest of the world for protection?

All four major schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence state that the apostate is to be put to death. They base their fatwa (edict) on the Quran, Hadith (alleged sayings of Mohammad) and Sira (biography of Mohammad).
The famous commentary of Al Khazan (used most extensively in the Mohammedan University called Al Azhar), quotes from Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and others, and gives this interpretation of the verse: "All the deeds of the apostate become null and void in this world and the next. He must be killed. His wife must be separated from him and he has no claims on any inheritance" (page 155, vol. I, Cairo edition).
The Punishment for Apostasy from Islam (by Silas)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm

Hello Daniel12,

First, show me how Christianity is perfectly interpreted and it's principles correctly applied please, for I swear I see the greater percentage of Christians thinking of bombing and protectionism of themselves and their belongings, as well as a dissolution of social systems that serve those in need. As well as any number of beliefs that seem contrary to the message of Jesus. I do believe, for instance, that a large percentage of Fundamentalists were all for invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq...

But second, here's a thought. At 1300 years of age, the approximate age of Islam, Christianity began an era of unprecedented hare and torture and extreme prejudice. The Spanish Inquisition was one manifestation of that era. Pogroms were common. Murder in the Name of the Lord Our God was considered a sacrament, actually, and cleansing of the Soul of the Afflicted. It allowed them to enter Heaven. Such was the mental justification of hatred. They believed they were actually doing Good by burning at the stake and such.

Though Christians have gone past such obvious and outward bias and prejudice, how far from those roots do you think they are?

Islam is not the enemy, only the misguided interpretations of such and the incomplete applications of its principles?

I see, that is perfectly understandable because Islam is a new religion, only a few years old, and we can expect something new to be misinterpreted and its principles to be incompletely applied...

Oh, I apologize for my ignorance. Islam has been around for over a thousand years? And it still is being misinterpreted and its principles incompletely applied? How much longer will it be until it is not misinterpreted and its principles completely applied? Another thousand years? Can we afford to wait that long, be patient in a world of weapons of mass destruction? No, of course not.

A world in which we have weapons of mass destruction demands that if something is not soon right, functioning properly, whether it be a religion, political party or piece of technology or anything else, it must be discounted and something else put in its place. The world is less and less a place in which we can be patient for something to work right. That Islam is not working right after a thousand years cannot help but put it on the enemy to man list. That is just common sense.

Abhab,
you wrote: “Your Quran explicitly incites people to kill Muslims who convert to any other religion.”

Could you please tell me where I can find this “explicit incitement” in the Quran? I don’t remember ever coming across something like that. In fact the Quran teaches freedom of choice in matters of faith. It is up to you then to show us where the use of force or the death penalty is prescribed for those who do not wish to accept the message of Islam.

The Quran states: And say (Muhammad): “The truth [has now come] from your Sustainer: let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it.” [18:29]

Another verse says: "And so, O Prophet, exhort them, your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.” [88:21-22]

And another: "Your duty is to make the message reach them; it is our part to call them to account." [13:40]

Also: "Call thou (all mankind) unto thy Lord’s path with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in most kindly manner.” [16:125]

And finally: "And had your Lord willed, whoever in the earth would have believed all together, will you then coerce people to become believers?” [10:99]

It is clear that faith is a personal choice and no one should be forced against his or her will to believe.

There are a couple of places where the subject of apostasy is discussed. In one it says:

“…as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of the truth - God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them in any way. [4:137]

If the punishment for apostasy is death why would we have these people believing and disbelieving repeatedly; a dead man has no second chance to believe again. If anything this verse indicates that God’s forgiveness and guidance are withdrawn after repeated rejections. It does not tell the prophet or anyone else to kill or punish apostates.

The Quran further states:
"How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.” [3:86-89]

Again there is no earthly punishment of any kind for those who believe and then disbelieve. It is clear that no kind of punishment let alone the death penalty is to be inflicted by any man or institution for apostasy. Only that God withdraws his guidance to those who do not make amends.

Imam Rauf lists six recommendations to Afghanistan which he claims are found in Islamic law.

“It must protect life and provide security.”
Are you calling for amputating the hands of thieves or stoning of adulterers? Those tactics were tried before and never worked.

“It must promote personal dignity and justice.”
How does Islamic law promote personal dignity and justice when it treats women as second class citizens and non-Muslims as third class Dhimmi.

“It must protect religion, including the freedom to choose religion.”
Your Quran explicitly incites people to kill Muslims who convert to any other religion.

“It must protect property and to help people economically by providing a safety net.”
How does Islamic law protect property when it sanctions Muslims to seize property belonging to non-Muslims?

“It must preserve the family.”
How does Islamic law preserve the family when it treats women as chattel and allows men to have four wives and unlimited number of concubines at the same time?

“And it must protect and enhance the mind through intellect and sobriety, which is counter to the narcotics trade, now Afghanistan's major income producer.”
Observant Muslims refuse to transport a passenger in their taxis if he is carrying some alcohol in his baggage yet supply the whole world with opium.

Muslims are not the problem. They are merely humans trying to do the best they can with what they have been given.

The problem is the ideology of islam that places infidels and non-believers are legitimate targets for ideological discrimination. The koran (and yes the bible too) has plenty of hatred in it. It is that ideology that islam has been unable to abandon and keeps coming up over and over again in history. When the "good" muslims can give up the ideology of the koranic hatred towards the other, islam will no longer be a problem.

There is a religious solution - give people through out the world access to competing views of ideology. Then, as the infidels, pagans, heathens, and book worshipers meet they can discuss those things and move on. Of course it is the islamic states that most prevent that from happening.

hariaum

Ender2,

Look to the Stevens-Arroyo essay as well. He is Catholic and supports a religion based approach as well.

SimpleSimon33,

My post to Ender is to you as well. We could put up a slew (for the uncounted millions affected by interpretation of them) of passages from the Bible that support the same types of assumptions and hatreds that are forwarded by passages from the Qu'ran.

"So struggle of Muslims in this day and age is a struggle to reconcile Koran’s sermons that run counter to present day values."

Some do not struggle so much with that, for it is not counter to THEIR values. You have no idea what kind of wholly different worldview is held by someone that grew up in Afghanistan as compared to one who grew up in Kansas. Or LA or Las Vegas or Detroit. The "present day values" that you cite are YOUR values, democratic values, your assumptions of morally and ethically correct behavior. And you have the arrogance not only to be sure that you hold the correct "values", but that those that hold different ones are wrong.

Do not get me wrong, I love freedom and liberty and core ethics that are held up as the American standard. But we do not even live them truthfully and constantly, and it is an imperfect system.

Other systems are in a darker shade of imperfect I would argue. The way to help those systems evolve may well NOT be bombing the bejebus out of them, but COULD have more to do with starting with speaking their language, religiously and culturally as well as linguistically.

Just a thought.

Hello Ender2,

"Ignorance and the superstious religious bs that goes with it are the problem."

Ignorance takes time to replace with knowledge and wisdom, as is evidenced in the biased and prejudiced posts by many here, land of the free, home of the holders of truth...

Western, Christian centered societies have spent centuries muddling around in ignorance and trying to brush off or beat off the superstitions and entrapments that their christian religions saddled them with. Still going about that work. Look at the prejudice and hatred with which even non-christian westerners view Islam. It is oh so easy to buy the PR of fear based propaganda and categorically deny the foreigner common ground with ourselves, make them wrong and the enemy on all fronts. Makes it so much easier to have someone to shoot at where we have robbed them of all validity in our minds.

What Abdul Rauf states of islamic law in this essay is true I am sure. I am also sure that it is also true that islamic principles been used to enslave women and enemies, kill and rape and destroy in the name of Allah. Al-Qaida is a current day proponent of the violent form of Islam. The Islam of Abdul Rauf is a peaceful version. Is it so difficult for you to allow that Islam can be peaceful as well as violent. Christianity has encompassed both of these polarities...

The only commentors that I've seen advocate a religious solution have been a Muslim and a Jew. They both subscribe to violent tribal religions and worship a god made in the image of their warlord creator priesthoods.

"Religion is the problem. It's removal is the solution."

This is not the solution for a few simple reasons. First is that you cannot remove it. It is intrinsically woven into the cultures and societies that hew to it. It is married to the minds and languages of the Afghanis, to be sure. It is married to Western cultures, though admittedly the slow divorce has been going on for centuries. Yet, Christianity has seven hundred years of a head start on Islam. Evolution clearly takes time. Allow this organic evolution. You surely will not succeed in "removing religion", and just as surely will create deeper enmity, not healing.

Afghan men are 65% illiterate and only 10% of women can read. Most of the literate males read nothing but the Koran. Ignorance and the superstious religious bs that goes with it are the problem.

The only commentors that I've seen advocate a religious solution have been a Muslim and a Jew. They both subscribe to violent tribal religions and worship a god made in the image of their warlord creator priesthoods.

Religion is the problem. It's removal is the solution.

‘Beauty is in the eye of the beholder’ as the saying goes. One man’s religious book can seem like a ‘manifesto of terror’ to another. Muslims fervently believe in Koran whose values run counter to present day democratic principles. Koran openly calls for the killing or converting of non-believers (i.e. pagans) and idolaters (i.e. Hindus and Buddhists) and for oppressing and humiliating the People of the Book (i.e. Jews and Christians). Koran allows Muslims to take four wives, commands women to wear burqa, allows Muslim husbands to divorce their wives just by the word of mouth and forbids women to go out unless accompanied by their husband, brother or father. So struggle of Muslims in this day and age is a struggle to reconcile Koran’s sermons that run counter to present day values.

Koran calls on Muslims to wage jihad against non-Muslims 2:191, 2:193, 4:66, 4:84, 5:33, 8:12, 8:15-18, 8:39, 8:59-60, 8:65, 9:2, 9:5, 9:14, 9:29, 9:39, 9:73, 9:111, 9:123, 25:52, 37:22-23, 47:4, 48:29, 69:30.
Koran promotes jihad against the non-Muslims by glorifying it 2:216, 9:41, 49:15, or by promising lust in paradise to Shaheeds (martyrs) who die in such a war 3:142, 3:157, 9:20.
Koran promises hell to non-Muslims 3:85, 4:56, 5:37, 5:72, 8:55, 9:28, 15:2, 21:98, 22:19, 22:56, 25:17, 25:55, 29:53, 31:13, 66:9, 68:10, 72:14.