Muslim Holidays Make Sense for NYC Schools

“If that is possible, you just trumped the First Principle of Thought, Contradiction. In doing so you end up with contradicting your self by saying something to be true and not true at the same time under the same circumstances.”

But that’s exactly what most Christians believe. To argue that someone is both mortal and immortal is a very good example of that type of contradiction. The essence of the Nicene Creed is that Jesus is both a man and a god at the same time. Logic tells us that both statements cannot be true at the same time: they are exclusive because one exists in time and the other transcends it.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
COLAORGUK
POSTED ON JULY 11, 2009

IRT:
“Open your eyes people - all 'religions' are the same, it is only people that make them different. Hint: Arc of the Covenant
"The dust will reveal the evil"

ANS;
So why does all religions contradict each other in part or whole? If they didn’t, there would be no purpose in their existence. How can you believe two opposite things at the same time under the same circumstances?

If that is possible, you just trumped the First Principle of Thought, Contradiction. In doing so you end up with contradicting your self by saying something to be true and not true at the same time under the same circumstances.

Part one.

Should schools celebrate Muslim holidays? Should schools in general close to accommodate themselves to religions?

It seems almost everyone understands this problem, can articulate the conflict. The conflict is this: The United States has freedom of religion--allows virtually any religion to worship,--in fact does not mind schisms or the creation of new religions--provided the extremes of religion are not encouraged. And if each religion were to demand to be recognized by school closings, of course the days of schooling would be shrunk, the days of school would be virtually numbered. But if we were to keep schools open regardless of special days to religions slowly but surely the message would be sent that for all freedom of religion in the United States the U.S. does not educate for any religion let alone a particular one.

This particular conflict has not come to the fore during the past two hundred or so years of U.S. history because (probably, I might be wrong) religious diversity did not exist except in the form of schisms within Christianity and the creation of new religions which are based on Christianity or Western pagan traditions which are satisfied with celebrating on halloween and/or Christmas or days which do not necessarily have to be accompanied by school closings.

But as religious diversity increases in the U.S.--as the U.S. literally embraces the huddled masses from here, there and everywhere--of course stress will be placed on schools, of course holidays will be demanded for this and that religion. In fact the country will be stressed in many other areas as well (everyone taking off for work every other day?).

Part two.

So the battle lines are shaping: the conflict between allowing freedom of religion in the United States--and allowing religions to affect schooling, etc.--and virtually abolishing religion, not allowing it to affect important institutions in the U.S. which are not religious--and of course if religion is not allowed to affect institutions not religious it becomes constricted, private and eventually fades to simply believing in one's heart that there must be ultimate goodness behind existence or something. In other words, one's religious beliefs become more abstract and simplified--an essence is distilled which most everyone can agree with.--An almost grain alcohol distillation with everyone agreeing there must be an ultimate meaning behind existence, again, an ultimate good. Religion distilled to a simple, clear and profound conversation.

But of course another course can be taken: the U.S. can continue saying it celebrates freedom of religion but really celebrates only certain religious holidays. In other words the U.S. can try to preserve the days when only a few religions were allowed to influence a wide variety of U.S. institutions. But of course in trying to preserve those days we all become aware of the hypocrisy of the U.S. saying it celebrates freedom of religion.

So...probably what will occur is that as the U.S. grows more and more diverse and more religions are thrust to the fore a movement will be born--or rather become more articulated than ever before--to reduce religion to mere essentials and keep it from unduly influencing institutions not religious. But for the latter to occur the U.S. must somehow become a nation in which arriving masses are willing to shrug off much of their cultural baggage--bring good food and music and meditation and maybe fast days (I personally believe every American should celebrate Ramadan if only to keep from stuffing his face for at least a part of the year. In fact it must be stressed that being slightly hungry rather than satiated is good for the body and mind, that all one's senses, hearing, taste, smell, sight are increased, made more acute, because the body is being thrust into "hunter mode"...In other words, fast days to increase keenness of body and mind) but toss out all the...well, we all know what.

That is the dilemma. I am confident the U.S. will solve the problem. I just finished reading a bit of the history of the U.S. circa 1800-17 by the famous American historian Henry Adams, and I am astonished how far we have come and how quickly. From few crummy and nearly impassable roads to the Yankee clipper which gave the Brits so much trouble in the war of 1812 to the airplane, rocket to the moon and internet. We Americans are problem solvers. We will solve this problem.

Once again, the NYC council and Department of Education system currently are "honoring" religious myths (i.e. there was no virgin birth at Bethlehem or anywhere else, no manger, no "pretty, wingie thingies" on high, no physical/"easterly" resurrection, no "passover", no Abraham, no binding of Isaac, no Exodus and no wandering and suffering in the desert for 40/41 years).

Therefore, eliminating references to Christmas, Easter, Passover, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur brings the NYC school calendar "up-to-speed" historically. The events of Good Friday are so embellished that all one can say is that a simple preacher man named Jesus was crucified by the Romans sometime during the years 30-33 CE.

And the MLK Jr. holiday has significant religious connotations since MLK Jr. was also another Christian preacher man. Without his church, he would not have been a historical figure.

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=275_The_Empty_Tomb

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

Drop all the religious days (Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays)
======================
Martin Luther King Day is not a religious holiday. Either it should remain or schools should devote the day to the works of King and the Civil Rights Movement. Presidents' Week should go. Washington's birthday and Lincoln's should be celebrated on the days they occur, either with school closings, or, preferably, with schools in session, the days devoted to the presidencies and legacies of these two men.

"Keep the Winter and Spring recess periods"

Once again, Winter and Spring recess are Christmas and Easter under other names, a bad faith ruse. They fool no one and more important waste precious school time. Either we close schools, etc., to honor the especially sacred days of all religions or we close schools to honor the sacred days of none. That, in the not-so-long run will be the dilemma of New York and should be at issue for the rest of the country.

An alternative for the schools would be to set aside time for educational pursuits much neglected nowadays. (See previous posting.)

Once again, recommendations for the NYC City Council and Department of Education:

Drop all the religious days (Easter, Good Friday, Christmas, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays) from the school calendar. Keep the Winter and Spring recess periods and add another three-day recess called "Days of Human Reflection and Responsibilities".

Switch to allowing one "holiday," that is, "holy day" per religion.

We have a real problem denying one religion a holiday without consequences when the Christians and the Jews get theirs. That is what this country is all about. All the Muslims their holidays just like the others and get over it. Any other ruling will just give the Islamofascists the propaganda tool they need to turn peaceful Muslims who want to assimilate away from us.

I am not happy with the Muslim silence on the suicide bombers and other attacks by those who profess to be of their faith. They should speak out, but this issue is separate and apart from that.

We have other religions with holidays as well in this country. We are going to have to suck it up and drive on. We have a Constitutional issue here.

This is not about the religion but about the practicality of closing schools because 10% or less of students would not be attending school a specific day. Traditionally schools closed because a majority of students would NOT attend school. The students may be out because they were observing a religious holiday or when our economy was based on agriculture, they were needed at home to work in the fields.

There is no critical mass when only 10% is out for any reason, school continues. This is not about religion, it is about education. At some point, we are going to have to start caring about the quality of education in this country and not using schools as a political forum.

Open your eyes people - all 'religions' are the same, it is only people that make them different.

Hint: Arc of the Covenant

"The dust will reveal the evil"

Let's stop promoting religion. It only kills and breeds hatred. Gods, fairies and spirits are for the ignorant.

No religion should be celebrated in public schools, full stop. When so many students won't be in school that it is pointless to teach, then the school's needn't be open. When so many teachers won't be showing up that the whole school is filled with substitutes, then there isn't much point in the school's being open then either. If there are so many Muslims in the NYC public schools that the classrooms would be virtually empty, then close the schools. No child should be penalized for the religion their parents are instilling in them, but no religion should expect it, or its holidays, to be celebrated. In the meantime, let's at least give everyone who isn't Christian the decency to keep referring to things as winter and spring break, and we can close school for anyone's holidays, and label it as such, when reality sets in.

I think this is the time to stop all religious holidays before it gets out of hand. Let religious schools celebrate the holidays of their religions, but the public schools should not close for any religious holiday, but give "personal days" off to students to celebrate the religious holidays of their choice. I cannot believe that missing one or two days of school for a religious holiday would cause a student to not be able to keep up with the classes.

The writer uses New York and its ten percent of the population as the "critical mass". Okay, but since when is this about percentage of the population? Haven't we spent the last twenty years converting Christmas to winter break and Easter to spring break to so as to secularize the "holidays" despite the overwhelming percentage of Christians in the country?

If you want to go secular, go secular. Just shut up about the religious holidays, they don't exist anymore.

By the way, Happy Holidays to you all! I hope you enjoy the season! The season is the reason! Love and peace.

Q. How many of America's founding fathers were Islamic?

A. None.

I have worked for companies that, although they recognized the traditionally observed Christian Christmas and Good Friday Holidays, they offered "floating holidays" that allowed other faiths to take time for their celebrations as well. There's no reason why "floating holidays" couldn't be applied to the schools as well. Any small details could be worked out fairly easily.

President Obama used quotations from the Torah, Koran, and Bible in a speech about the path of peace in the Middle East.

Yet if a public school teacher used the exact same methods they would have a fury descend upon them.

Time for The Left to realize that faith-based teachings can benefit our children just as President Obama saw the value in them in a speech to ME leaders.

It is discouraging to see comments from Supposed religious Christian and Jews show such bigotry and hatred. For the person who asks "How many Muslims had fought for the US like Christians and Jews" the answer is legion. Many slaves who came here from Africa and Senigal, etc were Muslim and fought at free men for our indepence and longevity. The history of the Revolutionary and Civil Wars has few but distinguished examples of military heroes and financial backer from Turkey, etc with Muslim faiths.

I have traveled the globe and seen kindness and perversion from Christians, Jews and Muslims alike, including Palastinian boys who have had their wrists broken by Isreali Boarder gaurds for throwing rocks, hardly a proportional response.

Michigan how has an incredibly rich, growing, community of Muslims who are tax paying, civic minded Americans like the rest of us. They are as normal or as odd as all of us who may practice a specific faith with all of it's variations.

The simply answer is America honors all faiths and if over 10% of new immigrants to NY are of this faith, they should have their religious holidays honored, if any are to be honored at all, in the public schools by having te day to the sacred.

p.s...
if a holiday falls on thursday, it is switched to mondays...

In Colombia, eight to nine months of the year have 2 3 day holidays because of religious catholic holidays...
they also have a 4 day holiday for holy week...
if we celebrated every holiday for every religion and everyone participated...
would anyone ever show up at work...

How many followers of Islam have come to the defense of this country by serving in the Armed Forces like Christians and Jews have?

When the Islamic countries recognize Israel as a Jewish majority state, it will be a real signal of reconciliation. When Islam stops promulgating anti Semitism, in any form, it will be a real sign of reconciliation. It appears to this observer that Islam is always demanding of others what it is unprepared to render to others. Perhaps, if Islam showed more tolerance, it would be in a better position to demand a demonstration of tolerance from others.

Having read many of the comments I must say I had forgotten that Winter Break has some origin in a solstice celebration. Spring break had something to do with spring equinox. Were those considered religious holidays? Other than that are there any other religious holidays? The two we have are only quasi-religious holidays. No reason to add more now.

if jews could celebrate their holiday, why not muslims. it is time chrisians do not hide celebrating christmas under 'winter break'.

tax paying citizens should be treated equally.

Please, PLEASE:

Before having your students
partake in any Muslim "holiday,"
PLEASE make sure they at least
understand the historical roots of
the must anti-democratic mind cult
in all human history. You may start
here:

http://islamisbad.com

.

Why do we riddle our scholl schedule, short enough already, with these events focusing on mythology-based belief systems. Better to allow time off for Einstein's birthday, or the anniversary of the moon landing. Having a critical mass in the area of those who worship Odin is no reason to cut the school year by a day. Lets focus on secular reality, not some group's version of mythology-truth.

New York's school calendar is not like the school calendar in Fairfax County, VA. In Fairfax County, even the Jewish High Holy Days are not days off. However, it can really ruffle feathers if important tests or other significant events (one time only field trips, for example) are scheduled on those days.

So in Virginia, the same etiquette rules should be followed for Muslims. Do not penalize students for taking those days off, and allow them to make up for missed work in an appropriate time.

When I saw our observant Muslim students during Ramadan, I swore I would never feel deprived with only a very few fast days on the Jewish calendar! Fasting during daytime for one whole month seems like it would make school impossible. In our public elementary school during Ramadan, fasting students can visit the library during the lunch time to rest and reflect. I admire those students for remaining faithful in a difficult situation.

So if there is a criteria for "critical mass", is there likewise a formula for when school districts should remove religious holidays? I mean, if NYC approves this, and then the Muslim population drops below a certain number, would the District be entitled to remove the holiday from the calendar? Something tells me that the critical mass argument very quickly morphs into an entitlement once achieved.

It is astonishing to me to see the muslim religion included in a school calendar in the USA. I don't think it makes sense except for those pushing the religion for the 3 million muslims here. My reasons are as follows: The religion debases women and that insults American women who watch. The religion is not one of peace, despite comments to the contrary. One of the holidays is to celebrate the fact that Abraham didn't kill his son. THIS IS A REASON FOR A HOLIDAY?
Look at the paintings of our forefathers and you will see we were founded by a Judeo-Christian society, not a muslim society. There is no reason to turn our nation over to those who simply want it.

"Once a religion has reached a critical mass in a community, it is important to recognize it as part of the religious diversity and a building block of the faith community."
*************************
NO. It is not important for government to recognize any religion. The Western Enlightenment tradition is one of secular government allowing religious freedom in personal life. That Christian holidays have been observed in the past means neither that they should continue to be observed, or that all other religions deserve governmental accommodation of their holidays. If this isn't acceptable to the religionists, they have the freedom to enroll their children in sectarian schools that do observe the appropriate religious holidays.

Besides, the last thing our school children need is more days off.

I am not a religious person, but what I know clearly is that the basis of most religions is love for God and his creatures (other humans included) and doing the "right thing"

Unfortunately, most "religious" people today spend the majority of their time protecting their institutional religion as opposed to just being religious.

This is humanification of God and it happens every minute in Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

If people could rise above the messenger (religions) and focus on the message (God) we would do better.

The official school calendar for the NYC school system is posted at:

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/1FD604BD-C000-4A4B-A1A6-44B57C387CED/38696/20082009SchoolYearCalendarAdditionalInformationrev.pdf

The following religious holidays are noted on said calendar:

"Winter Recess (including Christmas and New Year's Day)

Spring Recess (including Good Friday, Easter and Passover)"

"Rosh Hashanah
Yom Kippur
MLK Jr."

Recommendations for the NYC school system:

Drop all the religious names. Make Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the MLK Jr. holidays, "Days of Reflection" or drop them altogether and replace them with a "generic" three-day period of "Days of Human Reflection and Responsibilities".

I do not support giving additional holidays in the name of Islam. Please add some floating holidays in the year to allow people of different religios faiths to use during their important days. Public schools should not acknowledge any religious days. Religion does more harm than good. Our children need to be Americans not Muslims, Christians, Jews or any other label.

"It is an occasion to ... reaffirm our faith in God. Are these not values that should be encouraged?" No, they certainly are not if we are ever to get away from the primitive idiocy of "god" and similar bizarre notions.

However, when I asked my high school sophomore son if Islamic school holidays was a good idea, he enthusiastically assented and added, "couldn't we celebrate the Zoroastrians as well? And all the others? It's only fair that all religions' holidays are observed and that ALL students observe them by taking the days off. That's true democracy ..."

Great! Now that we have all agreed to give Muslims a holiday, how about us atheists? I don't know what we would celebrate during that day except for, perhaps, common sense, intelligence, LEGITIMATE scientific inquiry and the advantages of a secular society in a world gone made with religious zealotry.
What a grand and glorious holiday that would be! I'll bring the hot dogs to the picnic if Christians will bring wine and bread and Muslim bring . . . hmmmm . . . maybe someone can help me with this one.

There are no specific holidays for Christians and Jews in the public school system. Why allow two holidays for Muslims. If they want off, then take the day off from school. Teachers will allow the make up work. Look at what has happened in England, France, Denmark and the Netherlands. Slowly in America, inch by inch, creeping into the fabric of American society until one day we too will be Muslim under Sharia law. Oh America wake up!!

Why not drop all the religious and religious related holidays and have instead a National Myth Week. Celebrate it during the summer and cap it off with reduced ticket prices at Disneyland, Disneyworld, etc.

Religious people are gullible and stupid.

Let's celebrate them by giving them days off.

What "Christian" Holidays do we celebrate?

Christmas is now "Winter Break" and Easter is now "Spring Break." Heaven help you if you mention Jesus the Christ in school, bring a bible to class, want a Nativity Scene, or put up an advent calendar.

However, in this climate where Christians are openly compared to the Taliban it's OK to celebrate Id al-Fitr and Id al-Adha. Maybe they will make all the girls in school wear burkas on these days so Muslims aren't offended.

Bloomberg ought to be the last one to speak: if jews can have a school holiday, then Muslims are entitled to it.

the mayor should understand that New York City is located within the USA and not in occupied PAlestine.

past due having voter referendum on these issues,not the religious fanatics of all denominations spewing hate

Discard his recent posting on R. Wolpe as an "OT" exegete. There is no "OT" in Judaism, and R. Wolpe would never, has never described himself as an "exegete." The Tanakh and the OTs differ.

If interested in R. Wolpe's views on "angels" which, though important in Christianity, are sidelined in normative Judaism, skip down to my earlier postings.

FOR R. Wolpe's actual thinking on "angels," see his recent book on Maimonides.

CCNL1 is trying to forge some Judaism of his own with which to attack Islam. It's all quite fantastic, has nothing to do with either religion.

As noted previously: When you think mainstream Judaism, think anti-idolatry, think do not do unto others, etc., think radically separate life and death (no blood), etc. Think community, history writ large, little in the way of personal prayer, no personal God, no personal salvation, but historic salvation. Think Tikkun Olam (healing or perfecting the world). Etc.

This is the view of R. Wolpe, whom I have read and whom CCNL has not, of many Orthodox and Reformed Jews as well. Few Reconstructionists would have a problem with anything I have said.

The topic does not mention winter and spring breaks in the NYC school system:

"The New York City Council last week voted to add two Muslim holidays to the city's public school calendar, citing the annual observance of Christian and Jewish holidays."

Rabbi David Wolpe as an exegete in historical and theological Judaism is well documented e.g. see the review at answers.com.

an excerpt:

"Career

Wolpe taught at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America in New York, and also served as assistant to the Chancellor of that institution. He also taught at the University of Judaism (now the American Jewish University) in Los Angeles, at Hunter College in New York and at UCLA he teaches Modern Jewish Religious Thought.[citation needed] Wolpe is a regular contributor to several publications such as New York Jewish Week, the Jerusalem Post, Los Angeles Times. He frequently is featured on documentaries on Biblical topics produced by A&E Networks (A&E, Bio, History Channel and History Channel International). He has also appeared as a commentator on CNN and CBS This Morning. Wolpe's most recent book WHY FAITH MATTERS, is both an answer to atheism books and a recounting of his battle with illness (he has undergone surgery for a brain tumor and chemotherapy for lymphoma). In 2008 and 2009, he had public debates with Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Steven Pinker, Roger Cohen[1][2][3] and others.

Wolpe is the head rabbi of Sinai Temple in Los Angeles, California."

His article "Angels in Judaism" as previously referenced did not include his name. Apparently there was a typographical error at Beliefnet.com. Use Beliefnet's search enging to verify his authorship. The rabbi has a number of other articles on Judaism published on the Beliefnet site.

As noted previously, CCNL1's link does not go to R. Wolpe's article. Discard his recent posting on R. Wolpe as an "OT" exegete. There is no "OT" in Judaism, and R. Wolpe would never, has never described himself as an "exegete." The Tanakh and the OTs differ.

If interested in R. Wolpe's views on "angels" which, though important in Christianity, are sidelined in normative Judaism, skip down to my earlier postings.

FOR R. Wolpe's actual thinking on "angels," see his recent book on Maimonides.

CCNL1 is trying to forge some Judaism of his own with which to attack Islam. It's all quite fantastic, has nothing to do with either religion.

As noted previously: When you think mainstream Judaism, think anti-idolatry, think do not do unto others, etc., think radically separate life and death (no blood), etc. Think community, history writ large, little in the way of personal prayer, no personal God, no personal salvation, but historic salvation. Think Tikkun Olam (healing or perfecting the world). Etc.

This is the view of R. Wolpe, whom I have read and whom CCNL has not, of many Orthodox and Reformed Jews as well. Few Reconstructionists would have a problem with anything I have said.

Your cutting and pasting of R. Wolpe's final serious reservations on "angels" is belated, and continues to speak to a kind of bad faith.

NYC does have "winter" and "spring" breaks which jes' happen to coincide with Christmas and Easter. In other words like most of the rest of the country, we have two ten-day err roses by other names.

Long-term problem for religiously diverse New York: Either we will have to close the schools to honor the sacred days of who knows how many religions, or implement a policy excused absences for religious students of all faiths that they may observe sacred days, these students to be held responsible for the work they miss.

In the interest of honesty, let alone fairness, "Winter" and "Spring" breaks, if they are to continue should not be held during Christmas and Easter. Also, it is high time for us to end the huge expense of the Christmas tree lighting here in Rockefeller Center, get rid of the tasteless street decorations that cost a fortune in electricity, which Pagans knew not.

All this stuff should be dispensed with nation-wide, as we are a secular society, a democracy, not established. Period. And again, what holds true of the schools and streets should hold true for business and the civil service, as well.

As noted previously, for those interested in angels in Judaism, see the discourse by Rabbi David Wolpe, an On-Faith panelist and OT exegete, published at:

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2002/04/Angels-In-Jewish-Tradition.aspx?p=1

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2002/04/Angels-In-Jewish-Tradition.aspx?p=2

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2002/04/Angels-In-Jewish-Tradition.aspx?p=3

In his final statement, Rabbi Wolpe notes:

"Ultimately however, angels have an ancillary role. In both the Bible and later literature, Judaism insists God is initiator and arbiter of what happens here on earth. Rabbi Judan teaches in the Talmud that God wishes to be directly addressed: "If trouble comes upon someone, let him cry not to Michael or Gabriel, but let him cry unto Me (Jerusalem Talmud Berachot 9:12)." As Jews recite each year during Passover: "And the Lord brought us out from Egypt--not by an angel, not by a seraph (fiery angel), and not by a messenger, but the Holy One alone...""

This last line gets to the heart of the problem as it is a nice play on "theofiction" since Rabbi Wolpe and many Jewish OT exegetes and archeologists have concluded there was no Exodus.

How does this all interact with the topic?

The NYC school system is actually "honoring" religious myths (i.e. there was no virgin birth at Bethlehem or anywhere else, no manger, no "pretty, wingie thingies" on high, no physical/"easterly" resurrection, and no "passover").

continued below:

Bottom line: The NYC school board should simply have winter and spring breaks like those at most universities and apparently at many school districts in California and elsewhere. Then there are no "holyholiday" problems!!!

added references:

"In Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography (2000), Bruce Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circumstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural paternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus' life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus' self-identity, his concept of God and his spiritual quest."

"John P,Meier [Marginal Jew I,220-22] discusses the virginal conception as part of his larger chapter on Jesus' origins. He earlier notes that both infancy narratives "seem to be largely the product of Christian reflection on the salvific meaning of Jesus Christ in the light of OT prophecies (p. 213). At the end of his examination, Meier concludes:

The ends result of this survey must remain meager and disappointing to both defenders and opponents of the doctrine of the virginal conception. Taken by itself, historical-critical research simply does not have the sources and tools available to reach a final decision on the historicity of the virginal conception as narrated by Matthew and Luke. One's acceptance or rejection of the doctrine will be largely influenced by one's own philosophical and theological presuppositions, as well as the weight one gives to Church teaching."

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?title=275_The_Empty_Tomb

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

CCNl, I've found R. Wolpe's article to which your link does not go. Yes, he is correct, basically, with respect to Jewish tradition, but he would be the first to tell you that it has nothing to do with normative Conservative Judaism as it is lived, observed, and thought. Mainstream Judaism in which R. Wolpe participates is also called RATIONAL Judaism.

Contemplative Judaism, btw., did not emerge at all until the first century, esoteric not until the twelfth, Hasidism not until the mass murders of the seventeenth. But, again, see R. Wolpe's book on Maimonides.

Making false claims to disprove what you believe to be false cannot possible disprove anything you would like it to, now can it?

The posts below are for you.

CCNL1, I've reread your paste from beliefnet, and it does not seem to me to be the work of David Wolpe, OnFaith panelist, as you claim it is. I've also looked to find his name on the link, as author of the piece, and I have not found it. I do not see his name. Kindly indicate where I may find his name as author of the essay, as you claim he is.

This post and the one below are for CCNL

Also, please do not say I've ever claimed "expert[ise]" in Judaism. That is not the case. I've read a great deal and studied Talmud, yes, but I've never claimed to be expert. Frankly, I doubt that R. Wolpe, whom you seem to revere, but have not read, would make that claim. Btw., see his book on Maimonides.

I'm aware that Christianity has fallen angels and the like, reveres angels, etc. This isn't the case with Judaism, where they have a very minor role. As I mentioned, though, there are legends....

Islam did avail itself of both Christianity and Judaism. It increased the already elevated position Christianity accorded angels, recast certain stories, and claimed that Jesus was Muslim.

You are way, way off on angels and Judaism. Read my posts on this. As off, as you have been on all things related to Judaism. Distorting the facts cannot possibly serve your cause. Christianity and Islam are not Judaism. They are not one another.

When you think mainstream Judaism, think anti-idolatry, think do not do unto others, etc., think radically separate life and death (no blood), etc. Think community, history writ large, little in the way of personal prayer, no personal God, no personal salvation, but historic salvation. Think Tikkun Olam (healing or perfecting the world).
Etc.

Name-calling, "ad homs," as it were, won't change Judaism to fit your agenda vis a vis Islam. What exactly it is, you have not explained.

As I have said, Judaism proceeds by method, sections of the Torah are studied together in conjunction with the very complex Talmud and they are rigorously interrogated, debated according to certain principles. This is done in pairs. Does Christianity and Islam proceed in this way?

Here is something you conveniently omitted from the article YOU QUOTE:

"Ultimately however, angels have an ancillary role. In both the Bible and later literature, Judaism insists God is initiator and arbiter of what happens here on earth. Rabbi Judan teaches in the Talmud that God wishes to be directly addressed: "If trouble comes upon someone, let him cry not to Michael or Gabriel, but let him cry unto Me (Jerusalem Talmud Berachot 9:12)." As Jews recite each year during Passover: "And the Lord brought us out from Egypt--not by an angel, not by a seraph (fiery angel), and not by a messenger, but the Holy One alone...""

NOTHING of what you posted contradicts calls into question what I wrote. Your mauling Judaism to attack Islam falsely represents both religions. You are attacking me personally because you are threatened by what I have written. Is that fair?

Is it reasonable, rational to distort Judaism to fit your own agenda? As I said, I'll give you a bibliography is you'd like, but see below for caveats.

Yes, yes, I know. And the point is? This is meant to address my post how?

What has any of this got to do with anything?
=====================

Hmmm, Farnz, the Jewish atheist, continues with her "expertise" in the world's religions especially Judaism which she renounces by being a said atheist.

So let us get an On Faith Panelist's take on the pretty, wingie, thingies in Judaism:

"Angels in Jewish Tradition

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2002/04/Angels-In-Jewish-Tradition.aspx?p=3

by Rabbi David Wolpe, (an On Faith Panelist)

What the Hebrew scriptures and commentaries say about the role of heavenly creatures in a monotheistic faith.

Why in the world do we need angels?

Angels seem not to fit inside a monotheistic faith. God can presumably accomplish anything, so what is the function of an angel? If they are doing God's bidding, they are unnecessary, and if they are opposing God, then how can any heavenly creature thwart the will of an omnipotent God?

Jewish teachings about angels are ancient, going back to the first five books of the Bible, the Torah. Cherubim with flaming swords guard the gates of Eden after Adam and Eve are banished (Gen. 3). An angel arrives to tell Abraham he and Sarah will have a child (Gen. 18) and then an angel stays Abraham's hand when he is about to sacrifice that child (Gen. 22). It is an angel who saves Hagar and Ishmael in the desert (Gen. 21), appears to Moses out of the burning bush (Ex. 3), and announces to Samson's mother to be that she is to have an exceptional child (Judges 13). This list is but a sampling of the angelology of the Bible.

God's intermediaries

Why do angels play such a prominent role in Jewish tradition? Some medieval Jewish commentators propose that angels are necessary because they perform tasks that are beneath the dignity of God's "personal involvement." Others, mostly moderns who understand heavenly agents as a way of giving God "cover," assume that angels permit God to distance Himself, in a way, from certain deeds or obligations. But part of the allure of angels is also the colorful and humanly compelling notion of a representative of God who is more humanlike, and therefore more approachable in imagination. For example, as outlandishly otherworldly as Ezekiel's description of angels may seem to us, with its depiction of four faces, animal countenances, four wings, wheels with eyes, fire, and so on, it is still more understandable than a God one cannot see. (For the full fantastic depiction, see Ezekiel 1).

The Hebrew word for angel, "mal'ach," means messenger. One traditional portrait of angels is as functionaries who carry out God's will. The rabbis declare that "wherever the angel appears the shechina (the divine Presence) appears (Exodus Rabbah 32:9)." Angels are used to give God distance from the action. Since it is too anthropomorphic (that is, giving God human characteristics) to have God wrestle with Jacob, an angel serves the purpose (Gen. 28)."

and continued on pages 2 and 3 of the reference.

Suggested reading for NYC school students studying world myths???

I do not mean to suggest that angels have no significance whatsoever. They do, most notably in Orthodox Judaism(s), but nowhere near what you seem to be attributing to them.

When you think mainstream Judaism, think anti-idolatry, think do not do unto others, etc., think radically separate life and death (no blood), etc. Think community, history writ large, little in the way of personal prayer, no personal God, no personal salvation, but historic salvation. Think Tikkun Olam (healing or perfecting the world).
Etc.

There are some legends in which Gabriel figures....?

ccnl1,

Whence all this Gabriel & co., stuff :) LOL!! It is true that the archangels still figure in evening prayer, but they ain't what they used to be, since they NEVER WERE. Be careful of what you read and where it comes from. If you want to know about Judaism, you must read about it from Jewish sources. I can give you a bib., but there really is nothing that can communicate what you would need to grasp it, since the matter of "belief" does not exist in Judaism as it does in Christianity. Thinking and analysis using certain tools, acts, observances, behavior, are much more important. Therefore Judaism must be done, experienced. After that, one can grasp theology(ies) and note the differences in interpretations.

Gabriel and co. began to take on some (SOME) significance with the Zohar, studied by VERY FEW Jews. There we are dealing with mysticism. Those who venture into mysticism are typically Talmud (which, obviously, includes Torah) scholars of the first rank. They read several languages, including ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Arabic, etc.

Gabriel? I'm afraid you are mystaken in the importance you attach to angels in Judaism.

Judaism as a weapon against Islam???

Give us a break!!! Judaism is the foundation of Islam and gives this
wayward religion the rationale for what it does starting with the need for the "angelic" connection. Ditto for Christianity in that regard. There is no doubt that the NYC school system should declare Gabriel's feast day i.e. September 29, a major "holyholiday" for Islamics, Jews and Christians!!!

Additional information: www.catholic-pages.com/angels/gabriel.asp

"Archangel Gabriel

The Jews venerated Gabriel as the angel of judgment, and in both Jewish and Christian tradition he is one of the seven archangels. Gabriel is also known to Moslems, who believe him to be the angel who served as the mouthpiece of God in dictating the Koran to Mohammed.

Mention of St Gabriel occurs four times in the Scriptures:

He first appears to Daniel in the guise of a man and proceeds to interpret a vision Daniel has had of a ram with two horns, which is overcome by a he-goat. Gabriel explains that the ram is the empire of the Medes and the Persians which will be destroyed by the he-goat, the king of the Greeks (Alexander the Great). This vision came to Daniel in the year 554 BC, while the Israelites were in captivity in Babylonia. The prophecy was fulfilled nearly 200 years later.

The angel Gabriel again appears to Daniel to foretell the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem and its sanctuary.

The next appearance of Gabriel is recorded in Luke 1:11-20, where he predicts to the priest Zachariah as he is burning incense at the altar in the temple that his wife is to bear a son whose name shall be John.
The final mention of Gabriel is found a little later in the same chapter of St Luke's Gospel, where he goes to the Blessed Virgin Mary with the tidings that she is to be the Mother of the Messiah. Thus we see that Gabriel comes as the bearer of good tidings and as the comforter and helper of men.

In Milton's Paradise Lost, (book iv), Gabriel is placed at the eastern gate of Paradise as chief of the angelic guards.

Christian tradition holds that Gabriel is the unnamed angel who spoke to St Joseph and proclaimed the birth of Christ to the Shepherds. He is also believed to be the angel who comforted Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. A fresco of this angel figures prominently in a chapel on the Via Appia, indicating that he was honoured very early in the history of the Church. The Hebrew word from which Gabriel is derived means "hero of God".

Saint Gabriel's feast day used to be 24 March, the day before the feast of the Annunciation. However, following the revision of the Calendar following Vatican II, he now shares a feast day with St Michael and St Raphael on 29 September. "

Last two posts are in response to CCNL1.

How can anyone leave Judaism's "foundations" and its mostly mythical books out of a discussion of religion since it serves as the "foundation" of Islam one of the largest religions of the world while Judaism itself continues to shrink?
=============
Islam also draws from the NT. It holds that Jesus was a Muslim. To mold Judaism into a weapon against Islam is to falsely represent both religions. You also come up against "denominational" problems in both.

What you don't seem to get are levels of abstraction. "To wit," the other day I spoke with an Orthodox Jew about the possibility that there was no historical Moses. His answer: "What difference would it make?" Not all Orthodox Jews would respond that way surely, but many would. Truth is not the equivalent of factual, literal. That is not what counts with the Mosaic construct.

Judaism's "foundations" are very complex. For David, I would recommend reading Dever, at the very least, rather than trusting to the "infidels" web site I posted and to which you take objection in its references to JC.

As for Joshua, several sites, as you know doubt know have been destroyed, while as you also know, others remain excavated. As for the 2002 Times book review, it's time to give it a rest. You would do better to read the book itself, and R. Wolpe's own words in their entirety. R. Wolpe writes numerous "sermons" referencing Moses all the time, any number of which are available on the web. That would be now, in 2009.

Judaism is not a literalist's religion. That Tanakh is internally interpretive, commenting on itself, not a literalist's book. Even when it comes to the principles, which Gentiles call the Law, it interprets, advances through the centuries, as we note in Deuteronomy, Ezekiel.

It is not a story book; it is not a record of shadowy types. Sections are read and studied together, studied with the Talmud, in Hebrew and in Aramaic, following certain principles of interrogation and debate. Moses, as a personality, is not at issue. In fact, pains are taken to underscore this point. Idolatry in its myriad forms, not merely the obvious, is at issue. Moses is not Christ, is not a deity, is not a "heroic" figure in the Western sense. You need to see this much more abstractly.

How can anyone leave Judaism's "foundations" and its mostly mythical books out of a discussion of religion since it serves as the "foundation" of Islam one of the largest religions of the world while Judaism itself continues to shrink?

To wit:

But the Holy Land is not so holy anymore based on recent studies by many Jewish and Christian exegetes i.e. no Abraham, no Moses, David was not a king but a local leader if that, the walls did not come tumbling down due to Joshua's horn blowing and there was no trial for Jesus and there were no physical resurrection, ascension or assumption.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=books&id=766

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_07.html

Notes from various graduate theology classes at major Catholic universities on the subject of the resurrection, eucharist, ascension and assumption

With the OT, unfortunately, we have only the words of embellishing scribes with no text or archeological attestations.
===============
Actually, this is not the case. There is archeological evidence for some parts of the Tanakh and for some others, there is evidence from other sources. The problem with the Tanakh is how it has been used by Christians--that seems to be your argument. There is also typology, a serious contributor to the West's ideological disabilities. I don't know if you know what "typology," is, the levels of Catholic typology, which persisted to some extent in PRotestantism.

Finally, there is the concomitant problem of supersessionism; i.e., this or that was "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ. As for the "NT," which relegated the Tanakh to "OT"--ness, we can go on forever with the same arguments. There is no evidence, archaeological or textual for almost the entire text, nothing to assure that JC even existed. Don't bother cutting and pasting, and I shall refrain, as well.

Christians, Catholics do not know how Jews read the Tanakh. Judaism is not literal. There are rules for working out interpretations, which are employed in a process of debate. Sections of the Tanakh are contrasted, compared, read together. The Tanakh is read with the Talmud, and both are rigorously interrogated. It takes years of study to be able to do any of this with any degree of effectiveness. Typically, children start to learn ancient Hebrew at about eight. If they are serious students, they move on to Aramaic. They do not read the Tanakh either as a story book or as a tale of shadowy types. The Tanakh WITH the Talmud are a study. Hence, it is unimportant to R. Wolpe whether Moses "existed" or not.

Those words of mine which you quote regard your reasoning in words of yours. Reread.

NB: Both religion and reason pose dangers. Adorno and others saw the Shoah as the ultimate expression of the rational, an interesting analysis. Of course, he recognized the contribution of historic antisemitism, as well.

Peretz, the writer, who disapproved of religion, believed it, paradoxically, to be a reference point for morality, although religion itself could lead to enormous cruelty.

What does it all come to? Complexity. Demythologizing--which cannot be confined to religion alone. Nation states, ethnicities, races, "reason"--all are reifications. I'm sorry, but it is true that our service persons are overweight. :)

"the "atrocities of contemporary Muslims" are also fiction??" CNN et al have eliminated this possibility. With the OT, unfortunately, we have only the words of embellishing scribes with no text or archeological attestations.

What a great proposal, let’s make it really clear and universal that if a religion achieves 10% or more of the population of a city, it is automatically authorized to start shoving its agenda up everybody’s a**.

Why don’t we just vote to see if gravity exists?

Zebra4 (if that is your real ID),

Listing the atrocities committed by contemporary Muslims is not spreading hate. It is simply reiterating facts. And having the NYC school system honor this warmongering religion is a significant slap in the face to all those who lost loved ones and friends in the horrific attacks of 9/11.

The listing of the atrocities of contemporary Muslims is also analogous to listing the atrocities committed by the OT followers of Judaism as described graphically in the OT. Are contemporary Muslims simply following the examples found in the OT?? Whether they are or are not, atrocities committed by all countries and religions should be presented and discussed in all NYC school world history classes.

Zebra and her friend AVneri assert that

“a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians (in Muslim dominated lands)…”. I fully agree! This so-called special place is third class status afforded them by Muslims who had expropriated their lands, looted their belongings and then enslaved the rest with excessive so-called Jiziah and Kharaj taxes. This status is eloquently institutionalized by the Umar Pact cited below. Read and marvel at the tolerance and respect that Mohammedans have for the other.
A short sample is listed below.
"We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.etc.etc.etc."
------------------

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

In a 2006 article, Mr. Avnery, an Israeli peace activist says, “The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: how did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years when they had the power to ’spread the faith by the sword’?”

For many centuries, he says, the Muslims ruled Greece. “Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone try to Islamise them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration.

“The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.”

He adds:" When the Crusaders invaded Palestine, the majority had remained Christian in spite of 400 years of Muslim rule. Then “in the name of gentle Jesus”, he says, the Crusaders “massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants”.

Further: “There is no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule, the Jews of Spain enjoyed a boom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time.”

“In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, and scientists” and “Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was indeed the Golden Age.

“How would this have been possible had the Prophet decreed the ‘spreading of the faith by the sword’?” Then he refers to the re-conquest of Spain by Catholics and says: “The Jews and Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave.”

“Where did the hundreds of thousands of Jews … escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco … to Iraq, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman empire) … to Sudan. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition … and the terrible mass expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries up to the Holocaust.”

He asks, “Why?” and then he answers, “Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of ‘peoples of the book’. In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians …”
“Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times ‘by the word’ to get them to abandon their faith”.

The story about “spreading the faith by the sword”, he says “is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe” during the many wars with Muslims.

A study of the British assessment of the people they ruled over shows that the British view of natives hardly differed from the Nazi view of Jews, Gypsies and “Asiatic barbarians” (i.e. Russians). Lord Cromer, Britain’s proconsul in Egypt (1883-1907), divided humanity into “governing races” and “subject races”, while T. E. Lawrence called Egyptians “worms”. This is hardly different from “vermin”, the Nazi epithet for Jews.

Lord Balfour, whose 1917 declaration handed over Palestinians to Europeans, was intensely anti-Jewish and was so disturbed by the possible mass migration of east European Jews into Britain following pogroms in Russia that as prime minister he had the Aliens Act passed in 1905 to block their migration to Britain. And Mark Sykes (of the Sykes-Picot pact fame) called the Jews “the archetype of cosmopolitan financier, rootless moneygrubber....contemptible”.

Churchill believed that “atheistic Jews” were behind the Russian revolution, and often referred to the Bolsheviks as “bacillus” — a pet Nazi term for Jews. An article “By the Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill” in the February 8, 1920, issue of the Illustrated Sunday Herald, named Karl Marx, Bela Kuhn, Rosa Luxembourg and others among Jews who were behind “every subversive movement” in the 19th century. He also accused Trotsky of attempting to set up a world communist empire “under Jewish domination”. Churchill also suggested that the crippled among the British must be put to death.

WHAT DID THE CHRISTIANS' INTEND--GET RID OF THE JEWS OF EUROPE?

CCNL1 and ABHAB:

First of all the subject of this article is whether schools, where significant number of Muslims live, should allow Muslim holidays. Your attacks on Islam are irrelevant to this article. You are spreading hate in a place the subject is is not Islam but holidays.

ABHAB is quoting Koran's passage where the reference is being made to specific event for alliances between groups in battle conditions. It is not a blanket condemnation of Christianity or Judaism. It is about alliances.

Do you think historically Christians have persecuted Jews in Europe from the end of the 14th. century leading upto the Holocaust? And where did the Jews go?
According to Uri Avnery: THEY WERE WELCOMED BY THE MUSLIM OTTOMANS.

I am going to post the 18th. and 19th century European leaders who demonized Jews just as you are demonizing Muslims today. Wait for my next post.

This is the correct link to my earlier comment. Sorry!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020819.php

Saffiyah in an attempt to show a pluralistic side to her religion quotes:
“The Holy Qur’an tells us,”O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another.""

The same Quran states in a different chapter:

“O YOU who have attained to faith! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for your allies: they are but allies of one another and whoever of you allies himself with them becomes, verily, one of them; behold, God does not guide people who are unjust. (Quran 5:51)”

In the Fatiha which is the first chapter and equivalent to the Lord’s Prayer for Christians states:
5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
6. Show us the straight way,
7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace,
those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.(Quran 1:5-7).

All Muslim commentators believe that the Jews are those who have earned Allah’s wrath and the Christians are those who have gone astray. This is the view of Tabari, Zamakhshari, the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, the Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas, and Ibn Arabi, as well as Ibn Kathir.

http://jihadwatch.org/archives/020820.php

And the ongoing koranic-driven body count which hopefully is part of the NYC school systems world history classes:

1) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

2) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

3) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

4 The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,460 KIA 865 non-hostile) and 92,489 – 100,971 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

5) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

6) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

7) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

8) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

9) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan, US troops, 480 KIA, 167 non-hostile, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

The Islamophobes here are spewing out venom against Muslims to creatte a climate leading to violence, vandalism, and discrimination. Read the following documented by CAIR:

A prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group today cited recent anti-Muslim incidents nationwide in calling on American leaders to address what it said is a “growing level of anti-Muslim prejudice and stereotyping” in American society.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said opinion leaders, policymakers and law enforcement authorities should speak out against the type of Islamophobic rhetoric on Internet hate sites and on talk radio programs that may lead to bias-motivated attacks.

In making its appeal to local and national leaders, CAIR cited recent incidents targeting American Muslim individuals and institutions, including a bias-motivated attack on a Muslim woman and child in Seattle by a self-proclaimed white supremacist, vandalism of mosques in Florida and California, an anti-Islam sign outside a Florida church, racist fireworks sold in Wisconsin, the beating of a Muslim student in New York, and the death of a California Muslim leader in a “suspicious” fire.

SEE: Man Charged with Hate Crime for Threatening Muslim Woman (Seattle Times)

Anti-Islam Church Sign Stirs Up Community Outrage (Gainesville Sun)

Police: 2 Vandalized Mosque (Miami Herald)
Islamic Center Tagged with Graffiti (Orange County Register)

Racially Offensive Fireworks Off Wisconsin Shelves (Star Tribune)

NY Muslim Parents Call Beating of Son a Hate Crime (Video)

FBI Joins Investigation of Muslim Leader's Death (The Sun)

I hope the law enforcement is watching the hate mongers on this thread. They are posing a threat to law and order in this country.

I pray that it doesn't happen. At what point will th infiltration of other faiths in America stop? We put Muslims holidays on the calendar what next? We couldn't go to the Muslim countries and change their whole school system.

I couldn't agree more that New York's public school system really needs to be responsive to the population of students that it is entrusted with teaching. One lesson that is often undervalued is the lesson of getting to know something of the out of school lives of the other human beings that live within one's community. I can remember growing up in central Maryland in the seventies and learning by being invited to my friend's family gathering at Passover. I will never forget what that was like and how that experience shaped my understanding of how dehumanizing the belief is that everyone is the same. We are not and it is through those very differences that we come to know and appreciate each other. The Holy Qur’an tells us,”O mankind! We have created you male and a female; and we have made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another."
I pray that Mayor Bloomberg remembers the time before the seventies when Americans knew very little about his little slice of America-the Jewish Community-and looks forward with the certainty and knowledge that all the Christian children that were invited to share a special dinner with their Jewish friends grew into the adults that appreciate those differences and honor them.

Zebra4 (if that is your real ID),

From Wikipedia:

"In January 2006, Hirsi Ali used her acceptance speech for the Reader's Digest "European of the Year" award to urge action to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons and to say that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad must be taken at his word in wanting to organize a conference to investigate objective evidence of the Holocaust.

"Before I came to Europe, I'd never heard of the Holocaust. That is the case with millions of people in the Middle East. Such a conference should be able to convince many people away from their denial of the genocide against the Jews."[28]

She also said that "so-called Western values" of freedom and justice are universal; that Europe has done far better than most areas of the world at providing justice, because it has guaranteed the freedom of thought and debate that are required for critical self-examination; and that communities cannot reform themselves unless "scrupulous investigation of every former and current doctrine is possible."[29]

In March 2006 she co-signed a letter entitled "MANIFESTO: Together facing the new totalitarianism". The most notable of the eleven other signatories was British writer Salman Rushdie, whose fatwa Hirsi Ali had supported as a teen. The letter was published in response to protests in the Islamic world surrounding the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy.

On April 27, a Dutch judge ruled that Hirsi Ali had to abandon her house —a highly secured secret address in the Netherlands. Her neighbors had complained that living next to her was an unacceptable security risk to them, although the police had testified in court that it was one of the safest places in the country due to the large number of personnel they had assigned there.[30] In early 2007, she stated that the Dutch state spent about 3.5 million euros providing armed guards for her, and the threats made her live "in fear and looking over my shoulder", but she was willing to endure this for the sake of speaking her mind.[31]"

And Islam calls itself a religion of peace?????

With respect to her US and Dutch visas, see what she had to endure to include the threats on her life by the same Islamics who assassinated her friend Theo van Gogh to get them and why at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

Is CCNL1 really Hirsi Ali? CCNL1 is always promoting her book here.

We have already read that Hirsi Ali lied in her visa application. She has admitted that. How is CCNL1 expecting us to give her book any credibility?

THIS IS WHAT THE ISLAMOPHOBES ON THIS THREAD WANT FOR AMERICAN MUSLIMS TOO, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN"T SPEW SUCH A VENOM AGAINST THE MUSLIMS (READ ON):

Representatives of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) met today with officials of the German embassy in Washington, D.C., to discuss a recent incident in which a pregnant Muslim woman was stabbed to death at a Dresden court while testifying against a man who had insulted her for wearing a religiously-mandated headscarf, or hijab.

The woman was stabbed 18 times as court security personnel allegedly failed to intervene. When the woman’s husband attempted to shield her from the attacker, he was shot by those same security personnel and remains in critical condition.

And from one woman who has suffered the injustices of Islam:

From Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, "Infidel"-- (said book is banned in Islamic countries)

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

"proud to see muslims as part of the fabric of this and every country...."

Give us a break!!!

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues today as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Equality and acceptance is what this country is founded on. We need to be proud to see muslims as part of the fabric of this and every country they are in or the Islamic communtry will radicalize as it has already has started.

Why would anyone want to celebrate the life of a warmongering, hallucinating, womanizing and illiterate Arab????

If Muslims want schools to close on their holidays, they need to build their own schools. Saudi Arabia had built over 1200 mosques in this country during the past decade; it could afford to build few schools to accommodate the Muslim students. Christian denominations in Muslim countries have their own private schools which by law are compelled to teach Islamic religion to Muslims students and obligated to close down during Muslim holidays.Forget about public schools. We need to start insisting on reciprocity.

No, though Muslim students should not be punished for staying home to celebrate said Holidays, public school is not the place to celebrate religous traditions of any faith, however we can agree that our schools should have an atmosphere of Love, peace, compassion, and respect of people of all religious persuasions.