Terrorism and Patriotism in India

CALEXO:

Item 7 contd...

The right to change one's religion is also part of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If you are a Hindu fascist who'd like to change that human right, at least don't pretend to be a Christian.

CALEXO:

I posted items 1, 2 & 3, UNDER my username NOT yours. I quoted your comment at the beginning to highlight the post I was referring.

Now,

Item 4.

Read carefully before complaining to moderators.

Item 5.

Read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which gives every human being the right to express their opinion.

Item 6.

Read the US Constitution to verify that America permits free expression of opinion in their land and via their media.

Item 7.

Repeat item 1-3: Read Indian history, don't pretend to be an Indian Christian, don't write lies. FYI: British did not divide India, some Indian Muslims wanted a separate country based on their religion and it was Mahatma Gandhi who granted them their wishes in the name of peace. It was a Hindu fundamentalist who assassinated MKG for that reason. If you were a Christian you would know Christianity in India has always been peaceful and has helped raise the situation of the extremely poor and created a literate and successful society where it has had influence in sufficient numbers. If you were a Christian from India you would feel compassion for the low caste Christians converts being subjected to violence. If you were a Christian you would not ask a Muslim to fight to remove the right of every human being to change their religion freely. A Hindu forbidding conversion into any other religion, is the same as death fatwa by Islam for apostates. Hinduism has no rule prohibiting conversion to another religion. It is invented by Hindu fascists.

Items 1,2 & 3., appended to my comments were not made by me., viz., "1. Read Indian History, 2. Stop pretending to be an Indian and 3. Stop writing lies."

I sent an email to the Moderator(s) complaining about such offensive postscripts not written by the poster. If Mr. Patel or his agent(s) wanted to respond they should have the courage to do it on their own. I complained to the Moderator(s) about such offensive comments. I did not even get a courtesy of a reply or the add-ons removed. I consider it an unprofessional conduct. What I saw was a re-posting of my message without the postscript items 1, 2 & 3.

I hope that the ON FAITH Moderators will maintain the integrity of the postings and not allow either the authors or their agents to post irresponsible add-ons to original posts of those who post their comments.

My respect for the On Faith column administrator(s) and Mr. Eboo Patel in particular has diminished a great deal. I hope that they will have the integrity to post this comment as a partial remedy for what I consider a dishonest maintenance of this site.

Hinduism defines the concept of the Indian Nation and remains its weakness as noted by its caste system and worship/reverence of cows.

I fully agree. Pluralism defines the concept of the Indian Nation and remains its USP and strength.

Mr Chidambaram, the new home minister has very eloquently spoken of the idea of India that will endure - one in which our diversity is cherished as the essence of our strength, one in which we may choose to seek perfection in the faith we profess while choosing to respect or imbibe the great teachings of the other paths of love that this great nation has either given birth to or welcomed. That each of these faiths have been in some way distorted by man, sometimes brutally and unjustly, does not mean that an enduring and supreme truth does not exist within them while encompassing them all. The world needs the idea of India - its many continuing struggles towards a greater perfection are also struggles for the wellness of this planet.

The most long-term solution is to ensure that no theocracy ever acquires nuclear weapons. So now the only one that has them- Pakistan, must be forced to give them up, either by bleeding it economically or militarily or both. To reward it in any way will send a strong signal to the non-nuclear theocracies that if they acquire them, they get a place at the negotiating table via terrorism. Nuclear weapon is a shield that Pakistan has used from behind which to poke terrorism into other countries- Afghanistan and India. It is more than just coincidence that the start of its boldness timed with its acquiring nuclear weapons.

William Kristol, the conservative pundit, wrote a provocative piece in the New York Times recently about the power of patriotism to defeat terrorism. He writes, "Patriotism is an indispensable weapon in the defense of civilization against barbarism."
~~~~~
1. "Patriotism" comes in two flavors: Reprehensible and Honorable.
2. Contrary to popular belief "Patriotism" is used as a tool to further self interest, mostly against a country's own citizens. This is true in US, UK, Russia, Germany, India, Pakistan etc and elsewhere.
3. Pakistani population has united as a result Mumbai's incident. Therefore practically, terrorism is relative term. Terrorism in context of one country may well be "Patriotism" in context of another country.
4. Reactionary rioting in wake of incidences such as current Mumbai terrorism attack is one form of reprehensible "Patriotism".
5. Indian National Security Advisor M.K.Narayanan is certainly not a patriot, given the fact that he procrastinated when intelligence clearly indicated that recent Mumbai terrorism attack was imminent.

To end on an extremely ominous note "What is the probability that Osama Bin Laden will never be captured, and ultimately become an Islamic Saint?".

COMMENTS WORTHY OF REPEATING:

clearthinking1:
"Pluralism in India did not spontaneously arise from a vacuum. It is the manifestation of the tolerance that arises from the millennium old underlying culture of India which is Hinduism."

calexo:
"The solution for this Mr. Patel is to speak out against and work towards disenfranchising all theocracies from acquiring full membership in the United Nations."

"The UN Declaration of Human Rights must include a provision for the treatment of one's faith as a deeply personal one and not to be exposed to either overt intimidation or covert enticement to change. It is asinine that we tolerate Islamic theocracy like Saudi Arabia which would not even allow a tourist of a non-Islamic faith to carry one's prayer book or allow the visitor to pray to his or her God in any association with fellow-religionists in that country."

samchannar:
"There are precious few examples of Muslims coming out for religious pluralism."

"Pluralism or no pluralism, Kashmir is not exclusively for Muslims."

"Eboo Patel uses these pages to propagate the myth that Islam is so peaceful and beautiful that this country is blessed to have them here. However, it is the same script used by Islam in every country where they are minorities. He is seeking acceptance and accommodations to entrench themselves. If the tables are turned, the results will be the opposite. Witness all of the majority Islamic countries, barring none."

samchannar :
Troglodyte:
Akbar was not a born pluralist.
********************************
I am sure you know that Ashoka was not a Born Buddhist. He was a Hindu ruler whose Kalinga War killed so many people that the death and destruction moved Ashoka to reject Violence and take up Buddhism.

Whatever the reasons may be, Akbar tried to bring different religions together which resulted in wild prosperity using which lasted well into Shahjahan's reign and he was able to build the Taj Mahal.

Please read about Din-i-Ilahi propounded by Akbar which celebrates pluralism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din-i-Ilahi

Troglodyte:
Akbar was not a born pluralist. Some time into his reign, he developed war fatigue. He was very smart to realize that he could not develop an Islamic empire in a sea of Hindus, at least he could not create a regime where he could sleep peacefully. Therefore, he set up alliances with critical Hindu rulers for mutual benefits. Something like, if you can’t lick'm, join'm. Marriage was the strongest alliance, and he married into many of them. He incorporated many of their leaders into his government. This gave him a relatively peaceful life, and a prosperous empire. Religion was not his primary objective, ruling was. Pragmatism and expediency overcame religiosity.

ravitchn :
Asoka was a Buddhist. There are precious few examples of Muslims coming out for religious pluralism.
***************************
Ravi,
I am assuming that you are an Indian. If yes, then you missed the most important chapter in your 8th grade History - it was about the Great Akbar who celebrated pluralism. Shahjahan's great son Dara Shikhoh translated the entire upanishads to Farsi ( Which then reached europe to influence Schopenhauer's Philosophy ) So Muslims have lot of history to show Greatness.
The problem is how do we make the current generation of Muslims to be proud of these Great exponents? Instead, they pride in Aurangazeb who was busy warring & destroying not just Hindus but Muslims as well. He repeatedly attacked Hyderabad. He executed the erudite Dara Shikoh and used religion as a cover for his atrocities..it has been downhill eversince.
Unfortunately, I do not see a intellectual class of Muslims to lead them out of the morass. Most intellectuals who have the potential to lead have either abandoned their religion ( like F. Zakaria) or have no voice in their communities. Sir Syed hoped that Aligarh Muslim Univ would create Liberal Muslim intellectuals who would guide them and compete with Liberal Hindu Intellectuals. Unfortunately, AMU has degenerated into a den of fundamentalism. It's so sad- I don't see any hope.

Eboo Patel uses these pages to propagate the myth that Islam is so peaceful and beautiful that this country is blessed to have them here. However, it is the same script used by Islam in every country where they are minorities. He is seeking acceptance and accommodations to entrench themselves. If the tables are turned, the results will be the opposite. Witness all of the majority Islamic countries, barring none.

Asizk (One of the posters) is among the many who support Islamic Jihadism against India in the name of Kashmir. He distorts the facts to suit his agenda. Kashmir had 20% Hindus before independence. Sind province was majority Hindu, before it was ceded over to Pakistan at the insistence of Gandhi, to provide the new country with sufficient fertile land. Since then, every Hindu in these parts were expelled, converted, or killed. None remains there now.

Over the period of 50 years, the Hindus in Indian controlled Kashmir were mostly driven out of their homes by the Jihadi terrorists. However, they are still the rightful owners of their homes and ancestral properties. Kashmiri Muslims were traditionally Sufi who lived peacefully, side by side with us, for generations. The Wahabi sect, funded by Saudi money, systematically infiltrates and transforms the young into radicalism by sheer propaganda, intimidation and coercion. As a failed Islamic state, Pakistan uses this to discredit and destroy the tremendous progress of India.

To say that India should simply turn over the entire Kashmir to the majority Muslims regardless of the resulting fate of the Hindus is the singular view of the Jihadies. Pakistan exterminated all of its non Muslim inhabitants. I am a Kashmiri Hindu, and I refuse to be subjected to Islamic rule under any circumstances. If all of the Kashmiri Jihadists and their supporters want to migrate to Pakistan controlled Kashmir, it is just fine with me. India has no policy of extermination of Muslims. Do not tell me that I must leave my land and country to suit them. Pluralism or no pluralism, Kashmir is not exclusively for Muslims.

Asoka was a Buddhist. There are precious few examples of Muslims coming out for religious pluralism.

Clearthinking,

You say *It is not based on any...... book*
What are the Upanishads and Prasthanatrayi ?

Politicallyincorectworldcitizen,

*the problem were started after India was divided by the British on the basis of religion*
That was 1948.Wasnt there any clash before 1948 ?
You advise to read Indian history,but you dont know Indian history as well.
There had been always clash/war between *Penis cutters*/muslims and *Penis kissers*/hindus.

calexo:

I grew up in India as a Christian. No one bothered about my religion. I had Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh classmates. We all got along very well. My roommates in College, one was a Muslim and another a Hindu. Never had a problem. But, the problems were started after India was divided by the British on the basis of religion. Pakistan and then Bangladesh compounded the Hindu-Muslim violence followed by the perennial Kashmir insurgency. In recent years, the bank-rolling of Madrassahs and Mosques in India by the Islamic theocracies as well as the unbridled funding in India of Christian proselytizing agencies by the western churches (and even by our Government's faith based inititiative programs) have brought nothing but inter-religious violence between Jehadis and Hindu fundamentalists, and between Hindu fundamentalists and Christian proselytizers. The solution for this Mr. Patel is to speak out against and work towards disenfranchising all theocracies from acquiring full membership in the United Nations until they become secular like India, US and many other civilized nations have. In this millennia theocracies ought to be shunned and proselytization by all religions must be considered an assault on individual liberty. The UN Declaration of Human Rights must include a provision for the treatment of one's faith as a deeply personal one and not to be exposed to either overt intimidation or covert enticement to change. It is asinine that we tolerate Islamic theocracy like Saudi Arabia which would not even allow a tourist of a non-Islamic faith to carry one's prayer book or allow the visitor to pray to his or her God in any association with fellow-religionists in that country. That is what Mr. Patel you should include as part of your campaign.

December 6, 2008 1:39 PM

__________________________________________

1. Read Indian history.

2. Stop pretending to be an Indian.

3. Stop writing lies.

Eboo,
There are several things about India and pluralism that you don't seem to communicate or understand clearly. Pluralism in India did not spontaneously arise from a vacuum. It is the manifestation of the tolerance that arises from the millenia old underlying culture of India which is Hinduism. Specifically, the philosophy underlying "Hinduism" is Vedanta which teaches true respect, tolerance, and unity.

Hinduism is a word that was recently created in the english language. Hinduism is defined by its philosophy (Vedanta), which is profound and impressive to anyone who has studied it sincerely. It is not based on any one man, messiah, founder, or book. Therefore, it is a unique spiritual system and cannot be accurately equated with islam or christianity. To simply call everything a "religion" without understanding the critical distinctions will only lead to inaccurate analysis and incorrect conclusions.

I know, Mr. Patel, you are very sincere in your desire to resolve conflicts and have "interfaith" dialogue. However, simplistic cries of "can't we just all get along" may feel good but won't work. Equating the culture of India and Vedanta and the culture of Islam without understanding their true goals and attitudes are actually causing more problems for Indians than they are solving. It is nice to say that Islam is a religion of peace, but how do you explain chapter 9 verse 5 of the Holy Quran? How do you explain the history of violence?
Until these deeper issues are addressed directly, I am afraid a naive desire for peace will not be enough to make a difference.

Before any vote in Kashmir, the following information should be promulgated amongst the citizens of the area:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/ reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

Current crises:

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

Analogous synopses of the flaws and errors of Judaism, Christianity and Buddhism are available upon request.

Ebo,
It is not about the great Indian diversity model which is often smeared by PJB hindu radicals.

It's about brutal Indian military occupation of Muslim majroity Kashmir which India stubbornly refuses to end and to grant them self-determination.

Does Indian military occupation of Kashmir justify the Mumbai attacks which also murdered forty Indian Muslims? Abslotely Not.

Why does India continue to refsue self-determinaition to Kashmiris? Because it knows they-as an overwhelming majority- don't want to be under indian military or civilain occupation-the same as israel is doing for the PAlestinians.

I grew up in India as a Christian. No one bothered about my religion. I had Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh classmates. We all got along very well. My roommates in College, one was a Muslim and another a Hindu. Never had a problem. But, the problems were started after India was divided by the British on the basis of religion. Pakistan and then Bangladesh compounded the Hindu-Muslim violence followed by the perennial Kashmir insurgency. In recent years, the bank-rolling of Madrassahs and Mosques in India by the Islamic theocracies as well as the unbridled funding in India of Christian proselytizing agencies by the western churches (and even by our Government's faith based inititiative programs) have brought nothing but inter-religious violence between Jehadis and Hindu fundamentalists, and between Hindu fundamentalists and Christian proselytizers. The solution for this Mr. Patel is to speak out against and work towards disenfranchising all theocracies from acquiring full membership in the United Nations until they become secular like India, US and many other civilized nations have. In this millennia theocracies ought to be shunned and proselytization by all religions must be considered an assault on individual liberty. The UN Declaration of Human Rights must include a provision for the treatment of one's faith as a deeply personal one and not to be exposed to either overt intimidation or covert enticement to change. It is asinine that we tolerate Islamic theocracy like Saudi Arabia which would not even allow a tourist of a non-Islamic faith to carry one's prayer book or allow the visitor to pray to his or her God in any association with fellow-religionists in that country. That is what Mr. Patel you should include as part of your campaign.

The horrors of the massacre at Mumbai pale in comparison to the horrors of the World Wars and the attempted genocides by the Nazis, Hutus, Pol Pot et al.

also: as a reminder- some body counts: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

"Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries

1 55 million Second World War 20C

2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C

3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C

4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C

Biblical Atrocities (mostly mythical??)

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:
Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.

David:
2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible. The battle of 2_Chron_13 is so much larger than all the others that we probably should doubt it."

Eboo-
Here is my reply to Soja which I posted on the main thread.

Soja:

That was a beautiful post. Thank you. I hope Farnaz, who's taken a hiatus from this thread checks in to read it.

For me, the horror of the three hundred dead, the countless traumatized, the countless deformed is haunting. That the murderers singled out foreigners in particular shows their attempt to cripple India not only with respect to tourism, but in numerous other ways.

That they were instructed to single out the Naiman House is bone-chilling, to single it out and torture its Jewish inhabitants to death. This
they did to the extent that the doctors who saw the bodies have tried to forget.

I've been reading about the young rabbi and his wife. Gavriel had been asked if he feared terrorism, replying that he knew it was a real possibility but didn't fear it. I imagine he could not have dreamt that savages would slaughter his Rivka who was six months pregnant, that they would kill both of them in front of their two-year old son's eyes.

I would imagine that Gavriel could not have imagined that his son would be badly beaten and brought out covered in his mother's blood and crying for her.

I've been reading posts by people who either knew them or met them. They were there for Jewish residents, travelers, sojourners, and to reach out to Bene Israel and other indigenous Indian Jews, but their work went further. They had good relations with all. They worked with the poor and lived very simply.

The Mumbai tragedy is beyond one's capacity to describe. Racism is a special horror worldwide. There have been three reports in the last few years on global anti-Semitism, one commissioned by the US on anti-Jewish racism here, one in England commissioned by Tony Blair, and one commissioned by the EU, widely believed to have concealed some of its findings.

Interestingly, in England, France, Germany and other European countries, these racist attacks have just begun to be treated as such. A terrific scandal shocked London when a young woman was so brutally beaten that she had to be hospitalized.

These racist thugs and butchers, these animals are not only self-declared Muslims, but self-declared Christians. The savagery at the Naiman House has been experienced by Jews before, and not at Muslim hands.

As a self-liberated former christian, I can truthfully say that anti-semitism is inscribed in Christianity. It came to Islam in its current form via the Christians. Let us not forget this, and let us see what they intend to do about it within themselves.

December 4, 2008 8:21 PM | R

Eboo-
Here is Soja's post from the main thread, which I found very moving.

s_j_thaikattil:

I wish to offer my heartfelt condolences to all the family and friends of the Indian and non-Indian victims of Mumbai 26/11. May they all find the consolation, strength and support they need to come to terms with their loss and continue with their lives. May all those who are wounded and/or have been traumatized by the incident recover completely.

My special love and condolences to two year old Moshe Holtzberg, orphaned overnight in the terrorist attack but saved miraculously by the protective hand of God that came in the form of his Indian nanny, whose heart piercing cries for his mother are haunting. Jews have lived quiet lives in India for over twenty two CENTURIES (including in my native state of Kerala), without being discriminated against or persecuted by Indians of any religion, caste or creed. The small community of Jews in Mumbai lived among Indian Muslims and had a specially good relationship with them. The fact that a Jewish house in India, which offered accommodation and Kosher food to passing Jews visiting India, was specifically targeted, has left Indians of all religious persuasions shocked beyond belief.

There are many tales of sorrow and courage associated with the Mumbai 26/11 terrorist attack.

May God use this incident of mindless violence bring people of all nations of good will together to protect the innocent and to advance God's righteousness, His mercy and His peace in all places where hate filled ideologies make people blind to their higher purpose and universal calling. I extend my special gratefulness and thanks to the US, UK and Israeli, and my own now home country Australia, governments who have been prompt in their offer of active help and support to India and Indians in their time of confusion and grief. My grateful thanks also to all governments and peoples of various nations who have offered their moral support to India and Indians.

It is a stark reminder that we live in an interdependent world and we all need each other.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

December 4, 2008 7:24 PM |

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

You still don't get it. Plurism/discrimination and terrorism in India and Pakistan would be great reduced if the flaws and errors in Islam, Hinduism and Christianity were "historically and realistically corrected". Why don't you start the "ball rolling"???