Secularism Good for the Soul

In the everyday world, believers and atheists work together all the time. So there is nothing new about that.

In an interFAITH meeting, what exactly is an atheist supposed to discuss? His lack of faith and his reasons why he sees no reason to believe in anything the interFAITH team is discussing?

An "atheist at an interFAITH" meeting is an oxymoron.

Secular says:
The trouble with you theists is that ………
You should not sign as secular. You are an atheist. A secular person is not necessarily faithless person, rather one who believes in the separation of church and state.

Farnaz asks:
What is meant by” America is a Christian nation?“ He worries that this might mean the same as what is meant by the “Islamic State of Iran.” Christian nation simply means the vast majority of its people belong to the different Christian denominations. The state here has no religion as Muslim societies do. The first line in their constitutions is ”Islam is the religion of the state”. At worst that means the Quran is the constitution as in Saudia ,Somalia, North Nigeria, Iran and Sudan . At best it means that no law will be legislated that runs counter to the teachings of their religion.

Ibrahim Mahfouz:
Re: Secularism
A secular society does not necessarily mean a faithless society. It means that it separates between church and state. The state does not have a religion but the individuals who compose it do. Those individuals worship in their own ways and in their homes and places of worship, and do not allow their personal beliefs to have the police powers of the state and thus be used to subjugate whoever does not share their particular belief system.

Islam should be viewed as a political system with religious aspects rather than a religion with political aspects. Islam is in fact an alternative form of government in competition with Western governments that seeks to weaken and ultimately destroy and replace them. Accordingly it must not be afforded the protected status of a religion precisely because it does not recognize the separation of religion and politics on which Westerns-style governments and religious freedom are based.
September 10, 2008 11:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments

Re: Secularism
A secular society does not necessarily mean a faithless society. It means that it separates between church and state. The state does not have a religion but the individuals who compose it do. Those individuals worship in their own ways and in their homes and places of worship, and do not allow their personal beliefs to have the police powers of the state and thus be used to subjugate whoever does not share their particular belief system.

Islam should be viewed as a political system with religious aspects rather than a religion with political aspects. Islam is in fact an alternative form of government in competition with Western governments that seeks to weaken and ultimately destroy and replace them. Accordingly it must not be afforded the protected status of a religion precisely because it does not recognize the separation of religion and politics on which Westerns-style and religious freedom are based.

Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the Lord our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season: he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks of the harvest.
Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withholden good things from you.
For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
Shall I not visit for these things? saith the Lord: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

There be many that say, Who will shew us any good? Lord, lift thou up the light of thy countenance upon us.
Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their corn and their wine increased.
I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, Lord, only makest me dwell in safety.

We acknowledge, O Lord, our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee.
Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.
Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou he, O Lord our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
For thy name's sake, O Lord, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
What man is he that feareth the Lord? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
Mine eyes are ever toward the Lord; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me; for I am desolate and afflicted.
The troubles of my heart are enlarged: O bring thou me out of my distresses.
Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive all my sins.

The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.
Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
The Lord standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.

“they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not”
“Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.”
“Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him”
“for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.”
“Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him”
“for the reward of his hands shall be given him.”
“The Lord standeth up to plead”
“and standeth to judge the people.”

There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

“There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life”
“I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee”
“as I was with Moses”

That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

“Woe unto them that call evil good”
“and good evil”
“that put darkness for light”
“and light for darkness”
“Which justify the wicked for reward”
“and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!”

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
And God said, Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.”
“Woe unto them that call evil good”
“that put darkness for light”
”And God called the light Day”
“and light for darkness”
“and the darkness he called Night”
“that put darkness for light”
“and let the dry land appear: and it was so.”
“God called the dry land Earth”
” and God saw that it was good.”
“Woe unto them that call evil good”

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”
“Woe unto them that call evil good”
“Which justify the wicked for reward”

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

“But there went up a mist from the earth”
“and watered the whole face of the ground.”
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“and man became a living soul.”
“and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!”

And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

“The Lord standeth up to plead”
“and standeth to judge the people.”
“that it was well watered every where”
“before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah”
“even as the garden of the Lord”
“But there went up a mist from the earth”
“and watered the whole face of the ground.”
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“and man became a living soul.”
“Woe unto them that call good evil”
“But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.”

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

“But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.”
“Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire”
“fire from the Lord out of heaven”
“they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not”
“Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.”
“Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him”
“for the reward of his hands shall be given him.”

And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:
And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

“And Abraham gat up early in the morning”
“And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah”
“the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.”
“The Lord standeth up to plead”
“and standeth to judge the people.”
“There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life”
“I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee”
“as I was with Moses”

Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.
Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.
He that feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
And he that regarded not the word of the Lord left his servants and his cattle in the field.
And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the Lord rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.

“The Lord standeth up to plead”
“and standeth to judge the people.”
“There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life”
“I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee”
“as I was with Moses”
“I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation”
“He that feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh”
“Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:”
“he that regarded not the word of the Lord left his servants and his cattle in the field”

Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.

“The LORD is good”

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

“But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good”
“to the Jew first”
“and also to the Gentile”

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good”
“evil is present with me”

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

“Abhor that which is evil”
“and let the dry land appear: and it was so.”
“God called the dry land Earth”
” and God saw that it was good.”
“Woe unto them that call evil good”

“cleave to that which is good.”
“But there went up a mist from the earth”
“and watered the whole face of the ground.”
“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“and man became a living soul.”
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

“Be not overcome of evil”
“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him”
“but overcome evil with good”
“The Lord standeth up to plead”
“and standeth to judge the people.”
“There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life”
“I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee”
“as I was with Moses”
Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

“let us do good unto all men”
“especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
“My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.”

1Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

“Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart”
Then answered Zophar the Naamathite, and said,
Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
Should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou mockest, shall no man make thee ashamed?
For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee;
And that he would shew thee the secrets of wisdom, that they are double to that which is! know therefore that God exacteth of thee less than thine iniquity deserveth.
Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

“For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure”
“But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee”

Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: the Lord also accepted Job.
And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

“Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

“I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord”
“which am but dust and ashes”

1Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

“But we know that the law is good”
“if a man use it lawfully”

1Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

“Let him eschew evil”
“and do good”
“let him seek peace”
“and ensue it”

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

“Job; and that man was perfect and upright”
“eschewed evil”

And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

“I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord”
“which am but dust and ashes”

“Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”
“Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams”
“and go to my servant Job,”
“and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering;”
“and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept”

“lest I deal with you after your folly,”
“in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right,”
“like my servant Job.”

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

“brimstone and fire”

The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

“Upon the wicked he shall rain snares”
“fire and brimstone”
“and an horrible tempest”
“this shall be the portion of their cup.”

Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.
Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations.
For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.
For thus saith the Lord God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
Then took I the cup at the Lord's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the Lord had sent me:

WAPO - please eliminate all spam and prevent further posts from this chronic spammer. We have suffered with this idiot for many months and it needs to cease and desist. Thanks.....

Thank you for including everyone in your efforts to bridge the divide that seperates all of us.

Shafiuddin wrote (angrily ?):

"SECULARISM IS A HYPOCRACY. ALL RELIGION CANNOT BE GOOD, BUT ONLY ONE. GOD IS ONE, HE CANNOT CONFUSE HIS CREATION. EVERY BODY IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACT. SOMEBODY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACT, IT IS TOTALLY AN INDIVIDUAL ACTION AND HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR."

That is a paroxym of Muslim fanaticism. We humans cannot prove mathematically that God exists. We just believe in the Supreme, because our knowledge is limited to prove the existence.

However because our knowledge is limited does not mean that to govern regular mundane human affairs one needs to submit to some monochromatic or multi-colored deity to take guidance. If humans cannot use their rationality and reasoning to figure out mundane matters of governance, then humans are no different from their ancestral primates.

Governing by beliefs or a set of beliefs, that have been sanctioned/approved by some supernatural Supreme, is tribal primitivism. Any human being with some iota of intelligence would accept the validity of the onus of pedrsonal responsibility. One need not cite some stupid scripture or some priest/minister/mullah/rabbi to be convinced of this important aspect of human behavior. And, this can only be done in a multi-cultural/multi-religious society if all these people are judged under one set of common laws which does not emphasize a specific group of people's spiritual beliefs. That is essentially how "secularism" works and the world must remain secular to preserve harmony.

Of course, Islam wants the world to become Muslim. That's Allah mian's grand plan. To that end, the Islamic Shariah has been put in place by the mullahs and Muhammad. Thus, Islam and Secularism are diametrical odds, and I just cannot fathom how Eboo Patel supports secular governance himself being a Muslim.

Islam is a primitive and barbaric religion simply because it is an intolerant theocracy, as evidenced by Shafiuddin's remarks against secularism.

Finally all religions are equally good. Because the goal of all religions is unique: to realize the Supreme. However the various paths (religions) by which that unique goal is achieved can very well be different. Thus it is pure ignorance to label secularism as "hypocrisy".

SECULARISM IS A HYPOCRACY. ALL RELIGION CANNOT BE GOOD, BUT ONLY ONE. GOD IS ONE, HE CANNOT CONFUSE HIS CREATION. EVERY BODY IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACT. SOMEBODY IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACT, IT IS TOTALLY AN INDIVIDUAL ACTION AND HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

United States has killed more innocent people than Al Qaeda or Taliban. So we should question flaws in democracy. It is not what one talk but it is his action that should be judged. How is Bush who talked about crusade against muslims and have already killed 1.5 million muslims in Iraq alone is more secular than Saudi King, we fail to understand

http://web.mit.edu/humancostiraq/

The trouble with you theists is that you do not think twice before telling me that you are either going to pray for me - and for that I should be eternally indebted to you, when we know that your prayer no way changes my life. If not prayer you want to cuss me out, for not buying into the stone age myths, with eternal damnation - again this in no way affects my life, but the fact that you can gather up such venom at me and wish such harm befall on me will not make me to look at you kindly.

Congratulations, Oh Brain Dead ON FAITH!

JJ has now trashed four blogs in less than 30 minutes. Are you not proud, bragging to your kids? Calling the Guinness Book of World Records?

Obviously, you are not on guard. Is the current stupid neocon administration running you, by any chance?

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

Interfaith in what? The flaws of Islam? Give us a break and address the issues of Islam before spouting off all the books you have read on the subject of interfaith. Start by reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel and then Sir Salman Rusdie's book Satanic Verses. Oh reading those books could get you killed you say??? Do we need to say anything else about interfaith and Islam??

Arminius:

I do not disagree with you. But we should also look inward. Do you ever watch LIFETIME movie channel? They regularly show atrocities committed on women right here in America--murders included. These movies are based on true stories.

Several hundred women loose their lives every year. You read about them in small town newspapers, unless the victim is the like of Chandra Levy.

These killings are not religiously motivated but like 'honor killings' are cultural in nature. We have a culture of violence against women.

Women have been socialized to believe that their 'freedom' is unlimited and that they can attract men by showing their bodies. Men treat women as sex objects.

All women are our mothers, sisters, daughters, or wives. Why don't who inflict harm to these women recognize this?

Women are afraid that their men will leave them if they age. And of course, many do. That is a major cause for a high rate of divorce, although not the only cause. So, they make every effort to look younger. In other cultures, one grows old with grace. Not in our culture.

Farnaz:

I agree. It's getting harder and harder to remember that at least in name we're a "secular society." The fundies have been a problem for a long time, so I guess we should've assumed they'd get crazier if they weren't checked, and they haven't been. Now we have these candidates with their Christianism which is driving me nuts. If I wanted to live in a religious state, I'd move to the Middle East.

Hi, Paganplace,

One should also remember that the Saudi King was not being quite honest, since Islam is the only religion allowed in his country, and they are rather particular as to brand-names among Islamic factions.

As to family values - good Lord. I know full well that Arabs are very family oriented, I have seen this clearly with Muslims I have known, and I really respect that. But glaring faults exist - easy for a male to divorce, and also the horror of 'honor killings'.

Not that we in the West are particularly fine examples, hell no. But do the so-called 'secular' types have a worse record? I doubt it. We're all in the same family mess here, and that certainly includes the evangelical crowd.

Whoops!

Third paragraph should read:

The majority of Americans have straight hair. Is America therefore a straight-haired society? And if it is, what are the implications? Should everyone have straight hair? Should hair straightening products be removed from the market, since it is only a MINORITY who need them?
Should hair-styling professionals cease to be trained to cut CURLY hair?

************
Majoritarians, take note: This is the sort of lexical confusion that trying to deal with your idiom breeds. From thence, unless corrected, word confusion leads to conceptual chaos.

The confusion about America's status as a secular society has never been greater than it is at present. While bigotry has always run amok, Americans, in the past had always proudly proclaimed themselves a "secular society," arguably because the US has no official state religion and considers its laws to be based on a shared secular sense of morality. To a fairly large extent, the US has been justified in making this argument.

If one is not Christian, however, one tends to think of America as a secular Christian society. Although one might not be wholly conscious of this thinking, it is evident in what one expects and accepts. Now, many Christians, practicing and secular/cultural are outspokenly claiming that this is a "Christian" society because the majority of Americans are Christian. Practicing? Cultural? That the meaning of this identity token is never made clear is part of the confusion. The larger problem lies with the logic.

The majority of Americans have straight hair. Is America therefore a straight-haired society? And if it is, what are the implications? Should everyone have straight hair? Should hair straightening products be removed from the market, since it is only a majority who need them?
Should hair-styling professionals cease to be trained to cut straight hair?

America is a Christian society. If so, what does "Christian" mean in this context? Practicing? Secular?

Which Christians, what denominations are included when one says we are a Christian society? ARe Catholics included? If so, which ones? The various Christian Orthodoxies?

If America is a Christian society, how should that affect legislation and Supreme Court rulings?

In light of the fact that Catholics and Christians of different denominations differ in fundamental ways on issues regarding legislation and public affairs, which group should take precedence? The majority?

If America is a Christian society, what are those of us who are US citizens but not Christian?

Wow, Brian, ...then that King certainly is committed to three religions ganging up on everyone else... In his mind... Everyone but Abrahamics is apparently an 'atheist.'

I mean, I find the 'aggressive' (really I think they're being defensive) atheists pretty annoying at times, too, but these types tend to be the ones who represent the 'non-religious' to the Abrahamics, cause few others are actually very interested in debating the existence or nonexistence of the particular God of Abraham.

"Somebody at the Madrid conference explicitly stated that religious people should unite together against the forces of secularism."

"Somebody"?? Try King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, the organizer and host. "I have noticed that the family system has weakened and that atheism has increased. That is an unacceptable behavior to all religions, to the Koran, the Torah and the Bible. We ask God to save humanity. There is a lack of ethics, loyalty and sincerity for our religions and humanity."

"The shouting match between the Christopher Hitchens' and the James Dobson's of the world is an ugly caricature"

Say what? Where? Please produce the caricature. I missed it.