Ramadan and Fasting in a Parallel Universe

That was amazing.

what happened to the comments?

How to study the koran,

What about the basic tenets of Islam?

Let us start by you answering the following questions:

Do you believe--

1. In "pretty/ugly wingie"/paranormal thingies?

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. That the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed?

7. And that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel, is her autobiography and that in the paperback issue, the statements:

p. 47

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

are true??????

is the truth?????

TO ANONYMOUS, who wrote at September 1, 2008 9:33 AM:

You are truly a pathetic person. The idea that some abstract "sexism" in the U.S. and the West means we are no different than societies that bury women alive because they want to choose their own husbands is preposterous on its face. You have revealed more about yourself than you intended. It's always amazing to see someone who exists as a real-life stereotype of some cretin--and delights in acting as one. Osama bin Ladin, of course, is one--the violent Muslim extremist. Bull Connor with his dogs and fire hoses fit the bill for a white racist. And here you are, the stereotypical multiculturalist who honest to God will answer every criticism of some barbaric third-world cultural practice by citing some petty American infraction as proving we are all the same.

Let me remind you of one simple fact, my friend. Millions of people have voted with their feet which are the better cultures. That's why the population movement on this planet is all in one direction. That's why Muslims move to America, and no American would remotely consider moving to Muslim land.

No wonder you exist on this forum as "Anonymous," refusing to even give yourself a specific identity so we others can track your submissions. What convincing evidence that you know what a lightweight you are. What proof that you know you are a moral and intellectual nincompoop.

Hi Folks!
Time to make the doughnuts! :)

“Do they not ponder the Quran?. Or do they have locks on their hearts?” (47:24)

The opponents of Islam will normally quote one or two verses out of context such as “and kill them wherever you find them” (2:191) to prove their conviction that Islam is a religion of hate and terror, and that its followers are akin to satanic worshippers for no true GOD would have sanctioned such teachings…

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/study.htm

Time for a Islamic weight check!!!

Your weight on 9/1/08??

Back to check your weight on 9/30/08.

And based on all the comments of far, the Fun and Feasting of Ramadan appear to much more than a Turkish affair. And giving up sinning for a month? Why not twelve months? Very strange!!!

al-Baqarah 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to (sadaqa) charity : say, "The excess." The GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

"the excess" = whatever you have that you do not need.

Zakat - 2.5 % of your income should be given to the needy plus Sadaqa whatever you have that you do not need

"There is not an animal on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but they are nations (UMMAH) just like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they shall be gathered to their Lord in the end." Surah 6:38.

Do you think Bristol's side-stepping "abstinence" {A Family Value, aka, Republican thing} would dishonor the Republican party and would distract voters from supporting McCain?

Of course some on this board would go as far as to call such 'youth indiscretion' dishonor. No matter how one feels about Bristol's mistake, no one could bury her alive in a snow dune becasue of her present condition.

A girl is pregnant before signing a form at the courthouse and that is a proof of the West’s immorality, according to somebody calling him/herself An-:and worse than burying women alive. Yet the following practices in their societies is “halal’ or permissible.

Types of Male-Female unions in Islam.
Being sticklers for propriety they must have some sort of documentation even if that means a one line note that the man gives to the woman.
1. Urfi where the man gives his partner a letter that he is married to her and that is supposed to make their union legal . This is very predominant among college students . The state does not recognize such an arrangement but heck, who cares.
2. Misyar union where the man agrees with a woman to sleep with her every time he is in her town. There may or may not be any type of compensation.
3. Pleasure “ marriage” where by the man agrees with a woman to be together for a given length of time ranging from half an hour to a month with or without any compensation. This is the type the Muslim prophet allowed his armies to indulge in when they were away on their raids.

What distinguishes these types of transactions called marriages, which you can surely find a more appropriate term to describe , from the common marriage is in the latter there must be two male witnesses and the man and a representative of the woman must sign a document that is kept by the state.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Marriage/

A girl is pregnant before signing a form at the courthouse and that is a proof of the West’s immorality, according to somebody calling him/herself An-:and worse than burying women alive. Yet the following practices in their societies is “halal’ or permissible.

Types of Male-Female unions in Islam.
Being sticklers for propriety they must have some sort of documentation even if that means a one line note that the man gives to the woman.
1. Urfi where the man gives his partner a letter that he is married to her and that is supposed to make their union legal . This is very predominant among college students . The state does not recognize such an arrangement but heck, who cares.
2. Misyar union where the man agrees with a woman to sleep with her every time he is in her town. There may or may not be any type of compensation.
3. Pleasure “ marriage” where by the man agrees with a woman to be together for a given length of time ranging from half an hour to a month with or without any compensation. This is the type the Muslim prophet allowed his armies to indulge in when they were away on their raids.

What distinguishes these types of transactions called marriages, which you can surely find a more appropriate term to describe , from the common marriage is in the latter there must be two male witnesses and the man and a representative of the woman must sign a document that is kept by the state.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Marriage/

Thanks for the greetings, Marc Edwards and Paganplace-
yes- Ramadan Mubarak basically means Happy Ramadan- and any salutation, is warmly received in the spirit with which it was given.
(At least by myself)
peace all

I mean, seriously, who suffers 'righteously' who suffers cause righteousnes decrees it, who should be made to suffer for this or that...

Dehumanizing others, or pumping yourselves up as somehow against what you *cause* doesn't decrease suffering.... it *generates it to prove some 'point' about how people can't be good to each other until you win playing at 'holy wars' the lot of you.

*That* is a load of crap.

I bet all of our faiths and practicalities got better options.

Let's quite with the excuses and contests and *get do doing some good stuff.* Any God don't like it, let em do their worst, if that's what he really wants.

Or is it *us?* Religion included?

"No one on this earth suffers like Moslems."

Frankly, if walking in the worlds you monotheists have made has taught me anything, it's that everyone suffers the same. Competing about the whys and how-much-es doesn't do a whole lot, does it?

No one on this earth suffers like Moslems. In Gaza, Christians, Jews, and Moslems cooperate to make Gazans starve to death. The list is very long when it comes to Moslem suffering.

By the way, the comments below started with some Turkish Shabbatian guy talking about Moslems stuffing their stomachs with food in Ramadan. I lived in Turkey for a long time. Long enough to know how these criminal idiots think and control the simple mind of the Turkish people.

No Moslem on this earth would talk about Ramadan in this way but these people. Ramadan is a month in which blessings of Allah is bestowed upon the Moslems all over the world.

During this month, sinners stop committing sins. Those who don't pray all the year feel ashamed of themselves and start doing the least thing, fast with the rest of the people. Bad Moslems can cheat by eating in their houses or in any place, but they just don't. It is because of this holy month and its blessings.

Turkey is the biggest exception. Turks are taught in their schools when they are young to hate Islam and to loath it. It is the way the Ataturk wanted when made this republic. Hatred of Islam is a dominant gene in many Turks DNA.

If you want an example, just look at what is written in the comments. "Underbelly of Islam". Turkish newspapers are full of photos depicting young Turkish women wearing the headscarf making out with men in parks.

They dig for filth and always make fun of Moslems. These people have many Moslem names like Mustafa, or Ayshe, but they are very evil.

They hide behind nice words like " brothers and sisters of all religions", but then they infuse the poison to weaken people's faith make them hang to a religion that is symbolic and spiritless.
Again, no Moslem on this earth would say that Moslems stuff their stomach with food, but the Shabbatian Turks and their slaves. Moslems know very well that there are many houses of their Moslem brothers and sisters empty of even old dried crumbs of bread!!

I mean, frankly, a lot of this BS started with the notion that what I believe it's not improper to call 'The Feast Of Ramadan,' which involves daytime fasting and night-time ....feasting, one would think, is somehow failing to be Christian scourges and hairshirts.

In the English language, while there are connotations of 'religious devotion' to 'not eating, what do we have every morning?

Breakfast. Meaning, 'to break the nightly fast.'

Seriously, folks.

Just cause we only really have one word for 'not eating for a space not-related to poverty,' doesn't mean a quarter the world is trying to pull one over on you.

In cultures that raise livestock, traditionally, and varying by season, there are practical considerations where the herds or flocks are *thinned,* ...there is selling of meat, and a bit of feasting with the excess, so that the winter fodder will hold and other rhythms of life, depending on the region and all, can be sustainable. Sometimes these become rituals divorced from the actual realities of a place, but that's another matter.

Where does haggis come from in Celtic lands? It's seasonal. That's when the common folk feast on the stuff that the lordly won't buy after seasonal slaughters, ....notably organ meats with zero shelf life...

When Gaels dress up for 'Robert Burns Dinners' they're honoring a similar tradition, well-obscured. In part because certain lairds would have haggis at that time to show some presumptive solidarity with the tenants and all.

Most people think it's pretty gross. I think it smells like a year well-done. :)

But, really. You people who think 'cultural relativism' is your worst enemy, ...as opposed to storming around trying to justify being ..uncouth and superior and warmongering,...

Only display your willful ignorance.

I don't much agree with Islam on, well, too much of anything, dogmawise, really, but all you're proving is what asses you can be about your *own* ways, righties.

It's just an excuse to push off the blame for what you enable, support, and even *demand* right here, for yourselves, as Western Christians.

I say, Let's have America. Straight up.

Like a nice malt whisky at a Burns dinner. :)

And, happy Ramadan, those so inclined.

" Marc Edward:

"Thanks for the informative post. I imagine one doesn't say "Happy Ramadan" so I won't say it, thanks again!"

Imagine no more. Victoria, who's Muslim, said:

"Happy Ramadan."

Mrs. Palin's daughter is pregnant. She is 17 and not married. What a dishonor (!) you say???

anyone dare burry her alive like what took place in Jordan??

No one could...this is the honor less West! Saving of life comes first.

Thanks for the informative post. I imagine one doesn't say "Happy Ramadan" so I won't say it, thanks again!

Anonymous spews:
“It smacks of hypocrisy to criticize sexist practices in foreign lands when the problem has not been solved at home.”

There are so many Anonymousness on this blog that I do not know which one are you. Maybe that is your intention, being a person of courage and conviction.
The gender inequality in non-Muslim societies, if there is any, is a far cry from one gender burying the other gender alive. This is why your societies are stagnant. Instead of accepting criticism and try to learn from it you lash back with a tantrum like a spoiled kid.

To Ibrahim Mahfouz and Georgiason:

The West does not have any moral authority given its own widespread sexism. Whether we look at the levels of domestic violence, equal pay for women, the impact of the criminal justice system on women, the representation of women within political systems, or the burgeoning pornography industry, it is difficult to see the how the West can claim to have successfully dealt with gender inequality. It smacks of hypocrisy to criticise sexist practices in foreign lands when the problem has not been solved at home. One wonders whether the critics of Afghanistan or the Ghaza are more interested in criticising Muslims per se or sexist practices regardless of their location and origin. It would be preferable that such people concentrated on tackling sexism in this country, because that is something within their ability to change.

Sometimes, I wonder if Ibrahim Mahfouz, Arif, CCNL, and A. Kafir (who disappeared from this blog) are the mystery of the Rubic Cube. They failed miserably, Mr. Pipes.

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

During your "fast" maybe you can now have the time to address your Islamic beliefs. You have admitted to believing in the paranormal, a major requirement for all Muslims, now how about the following:

Do you believe:

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. That the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed?

7. And that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel, is her autobiography and that in the paperback issue, p. 47 the statement:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

and the statement:

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

are the truth?????

Truly inspiring. A reflection of a muslim who has a simple and at the same time profound understanding of the faith and Ramadan.
As an American muslim fasting in East Africa, the article made me think back with nostalgia of Ramadans in Pittsburg, PA.

Georgiason reports:
"Pakistan: Three teenage girls buried alive in tribal 'honour' killing (The Guardian, September 1, 2008."

A similar atrocity happened in Gaza. Alquds newspaper, which is published in Jerusalem, reported yesterday, August 31, that a man in his seventies reported to the police that he had buried his 24 years old divorced daughter alive. He considered the motive to be defending his family‘s honor. The body was wrapped in a white sheet, her mouth was covered with masking tape and her hands and feet were tied up . The police arrested the dead woman’s four brothers along with their father for questioning.

Good Morning AMH-

NO, but if someone went to, let us say, Greece- and applied at University- and the dept. head asked what foreign language I spoke, in Greek- and I answered, in Greek,"Greek and Arabic"
And he asked if I was joking- and then informed me that (obviously) the foregin language had to be BESIDES Greek, and a living language-

I would pretty well figure that it was the Greek, the fact that we were speaking Greek, and the fact thst I would expect his own language to be considered foreign by him- the part that would make him think I was joking.

How would Arabic, or Latin, or anyo other language fall into the category of surpise for him?
It wouldn't, would it?
But I would have likely entered a Greek speaking University in Greece with the understandign that the people there consider it to be- native and not foreign.

Explanation enough?

Or, if that is STILL not understandable-
If I were a dept head at an American University and I asked an applicant what foreign languages they spoke, and they said,English", in English, to me. I think I would also respond, "Are you joking?" Because I would expect a higher degree of thoughtfulness, especially from a PHD applicant.

It's all about putting yourself in another persons shoes- another apsect of humor-
I liked that movie- it was all about seeing things from different unexpected viewpoints-
challenging one's own POV, and having one's consciousness unexpectedly jolted is one element of comedy that appeals to me.
Yes, I thought that movie, 'Where in th e world is Osama Bin Laden' was funny-
although, admittedly, I am easily amused.

HAPPY RAMADAN :)

May we all develop a deeper abiding and sincere desire to walk in anothers moccasins!

OTHER THAN THAT, MRS. LINCOLN, HOW WAS THE PLAY?

Pakistan: Three teenage girls buried alive in tribal 'honour' killing (The Guardian, September 1, 2008)

Three teenage girls have been buried alive by their tribe in a remote part of Pakistan to punish them for attempting to choose their own husbands, in an "honour" killing case.

After news of the deaths emerged, male politicians from their province, Baluchistan, defended the killings in parliament, claiming the practice was part of "our tribal custom".

The girls, thought to have been aged between 16 and 18, were kidnapped by a group of men from their Umrani tribe.

They were driven to a rural area and then injured by being shot. Then, while still alive, they were dragged bleeding to a pit, where they were covered with earth and stones, according to the findings of Human Rights Watch, the international campaigning group. Officials, speaking off the record, confirmed the killings.

However, six weeks after the deaths, no one has been arrested, amid claims of a cover-up. According to several accounts, Baluchistan government vehicles were used to abduct the girls, and the killing was overseen by a tribal chief who is the brother of a provincial minister from the ruling Pakistan People's party.

Some reports said that two older relatives of the girls had tried to intervene, but they too were shot and buried with the girls while still alive. "This is a heinous criminal offence," said Ali Dayan Hasan, of Human Rights Watch. "We have corroborated it and cross-corroborated it, but the second the police admit that it happened, it would trigger an investigation."

Hasan said that, with a presidential election on September 6, one in which Baluchistan's provincial parliament would be strongly relied on to deliver votes, action that would antagonise the region's politicians was highly unlikely.

In Pakistan's national parliament, an MP from Baluchistan, Israrullah Zehri, said on Friday that "this action was carried out according to tribal traditions", a view backed up by some other male lawmakers, who attacked a woman senator who had raised the case.

"These are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them," Zehri added over the weekend.

The killings happened in the Naseerabad district of Baluchistan. Although so-called honour killings are not unusual, burying the victims alive seems to have been brutal even by tribal standards.

"It is very common for women in these cases to be deprived of an honourable burial. This is to make sure others learn the lesson," said Samar Minallah, a human rights activist based in Islamabad.

Sarang Mastoi, a local journalist in Baluchistan with Pakistan channel KTN, said that the villagers were scared to talk openly about the crime, but he had been taken by some to see the burial site.

An editorial, published in Pakistani daily The News yesterday, said: "Surely the government should be seeking the murderers, not protect [them] through some dark conspiracy of silence. The fact the act was 'kept quiet' means the government sympathises with such doings.
***END GUARDIAN ARTICLE***

Oops. So sorry. Hope I have not intruded too much on the how-ignorant-Americans-are theme. We now return to our regular programming, in which enlightened Muslims tell us Americans what a bunch of Philistines we are, and how wonderful the world would be if Americans would just stop being so critical of other people's culture--and, above all, learned how to speak their language!

Let's pray that we all can have a real love for our brothers and sisters- whatever their practice and wherever they are.

RAMADAN MUBARAK

May ALLAH grant us all a deeper understanding of each other, and more robust compassion for any who suffer.

Victoria:
So you do not believe that listing Arabic as a modern scientific language is a joke. Yet you believe that “Hunting for Bin Laden” is hilarious?

Thank God you live in a Christian country where you are allowed all religious freedoms.

I wish most of the Muslim countries had the same religious tolerance for other religions.

May be their religion does not allow that.

Caring about what non-moslems think of Islam is never the priority of the moslem people particularly in this holy month. However, it the priority of the Moslem-American minority who feel so inferior to the Chirstian American majority after 911.

Moslems in this holy month can gain spirituality in various ways. Their spirituality reach its peak when they invoke Allah to help their brothers and sisters, who are being slaughtered by Israelis and the Egyptian regime in Gaza, and who are suffering under the US fire in Iraq and Afghanistan, just minutes before they break their fast. At this particular time, invocation is known to be accepted by Allah.

This is far better and more spiritual than breaking the fast with people who will smile at you and enjoy your food and then insult you later- I'm not only talking about non-Moslems!!!

One of the commentators said that Moslem haters show their disgruntlement of on going political process by inspecting the underbelly of Islam.

Haters of Islam in the West don't have to keep their hatred in their minds. They always can show it in many ways. After all, at this issue "Islam" and this issue only , there is so much freedom of expression on all levels. Moslems have seen how his holiness the pope expressed his hatred of Islam publicly.

Apostate-

"I listed Arabic and English ; Arabic being my native language. The head of the Chemistry Department thought I was joking. He explained that two foreign languages are beside English..."

So, you're telling us , that you went to an English speaking department head- and it never occurred to you that two foreign languages would necessarily mean what was foreign to the school and the language of its curriculum?

Do you understand now what it was he thought was a joke?

Well folks, I thought I'd peek in and see if the blog was overtaken by haters yet-

Well, babble away-
I'm finishing up some dishes right now because I don't like to cook so much the first few days if I can help it-

My husband and I watched 'Where in the World is Osama bin Laden' tonight- by Morgan Spurlock- the guy who did 'Supersize Me' and that '30 Days' series-

It was hilarious-
Get a sense of humor you guys- some of you are waaay tooo angry.

Asalaamu alaikum and peace to you all. :)

One of the perquisites for entering a PhD program in the United States is proficiency in two foreign languages . I listed Arabic and English ; Arabic being my native language. The head of the Chemistry Department thought I was joking. He explained that two foreign languages are beside English and those languages must be “living languages” i.e. languages in which scientific papers are published. He simplified matters for me by giving me a list of languages from which to choose: German, French , Russian , Italian and Spanish. I did not see Arabic among the “living languages” . Case closed. I do not need to Google anything as the two Anonymouses suggest to me. The fact that some Arabic words are used in astronomy or chemistry were of no use to me nor would they be of use for anyone else.

BOOK: DEVELOPMENT OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY IN ISLAMIC HISTORY: BY SHABEER AHMAD

FROM THE INTERNET:

Science has never been separate from Islam. Objective study of this subject will reveal that Islamic texts - Qur'an and the Sunnah, provided a tremendous boost for study of the physical world and the laws that govern it. As a result, discoveries and inventions became the hallmarks of the Islamic civilization. Recently there has been a surge in the number of publications dealing with science and its relationship with Islam. These books have focused on the various verses on the Qur'an that point to the physical world to prove that science is compatible with Islam. However, areas that are not covered enough for the English reader are the historical development of science and technology in the Muslim world, and the factors that led to its rise and decline. The decline has been so severe, that today's Muslims are not even aware that their ancestors were the founding fathers of modern sciences. Just consider the common Arabic words used in the English language today like cotton, algebra, aorta, alcohol, chemistry, earth and alkaline. They are a living testimony to the pioneering work of the Muslims. I am proud to introduce this inspiring book to our readers. It focuses on the strides made by the Muslims in various disciplines of science and technology from the early period of the Islamic State to its last days in the 20t' century CE. The unique aspect of this book is that it sheds light on the key factors that led to the rapid advances in science and technology. Furthermore, it also analyses the reasons why Muslim World declined in this field, and last but not least, how the Muslim World can achieve the same kind of success as we already have in the past. Abdul Malik Mujahid About the Author Shabeer Ahmad, born in 1966, is a respected technologist by profession. He studied Avionics Engineering at University of London and he is currently an IT Consultant, having worked in Asia, Europe, Middle East and North America. The author has written widely on various subjects in Islam, including science, economics, politics and history. The author is also a well respected speaker. The current book started as a lecture for a radio station in London. Given the massive interest it generated, and the little information available, the author began to research more into historical developments of science in the Muslim world. The author felt that the contributions of Muslims in this area have not been widely acknowledged, and that there is a need to counter the view that Islam is incompatible with science. The current book is a culmination of his research over the years.

DON'T BELIEVE THOSE WHO SPREAD MISINFORMATION TO SMEAR MUSLIMS AND ISLAM

Reproduced from the Internet:

Muslim Contributions to Science: An Exhibition
By Dr. Rizwana Rahim
TCCI, Chicago, IL

Titled “1001 Inventions,” an exhibition now at the Museum of Science and Technology, Manchester, UK, features contributions to science from the Islamic world. It also includes book of the same title by Salim Al-Hassani, Mechanical Engineer, that goes into further details. It is scheduled to end in the first week of June. There was a timely article on it, ‘The Zenith of Islamic Science’ by Philip Ball in the prestigious British science magazine, ‘Nature’ (vol. 440, page 997, 20 April, 2006).
Given the current political climate, it also reflects the level of interest in what other things have the Muslims brought to the world. The exhibition is largely an educational resource designed for young audience, but those familiar with the science areas may also find in it something new and interesting. There is, for instance, a ‘Water Clock’ by Ibn al-Jazari and cataract operations by Ibn al-Mosuli.
The article points to the general ignorance in the West about this Muslim contribution, and that impression is perhaps best reflected in a 2004 comment by Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey: “It is sad to relate that no great invention has come for many hundred years from Muslim countries.” In books on history of science, Muslim contributions generally get a short shrift, as they skip from Archimedes (3rd century BC) to Gutenberg (15th century AD), as if the intervening time was really ‘Dark Ages’ as it is called. In fact, it was during this very time frame that Muslim science and culture were at their peak. From 6th to 11th century AD, Persian and Arab scientists did make phenomenal advances in sciences and left indelible footprints in different fields, most prominently in astronomy. See what these Arabic words conjure up: Algebra, alkali, alcohol, zenith, etc !
Ball also makes some valid criticism of the claims and statements made in the display, mostly without documentation, touting Muslim primacy in various areas, on display in the exhibition: for instance claims that (i) Gothic ribs originated in the mosques of Toledo and Cardoba, (ii) European universities originated from Muslim scholarship organizations, (iii) Jaber ibn Hayyam is the founder of chemistry, or (iv) Islamic science began on its own, without any help from any other civilization.
The exhibition does highlight the Muslim contributions, but the fact remains that, despite a glorious past, Islamic science has indeed been quite undistinguished in recent centuries, perhaps for over 1,000 years. The Archbishop may have put it rather indelicately, but he wasn’t too far off the mark. Islamic predominance in science did taper off as the Renaissance began in Europe. This fact cannot be ignored or dismissed, and it would be delusional to think that the rest of the world doesn’t wonder why (for want of a better term) ‘Islamic science’ is no longer the force it once was.
Exhibitions like this offer an opportunity to revel in the past, but what happened to the potential and promise it once held for the future?

GO TO YOUR SEARCH ENGINE AND SEARCH FOR "CONTRIBUTIONS OF MUSLIMS TO SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY. There is a wealth of information.

You gotta hand it to Islam for inventing the institution of "temporary marriage" in which you can bribe a mullah for whatever he'll take in order to give you permission - even for as little as half an hour - to get it on with whomever you have a hankering for - provided, that is, that they are of the opposite sex. This is a good way to take your mind off "fasting" during the time shift before you can eat and drink at pleasure after sundown.

Very convenient.

" Francisco:

"A religious faith that sanctions the execution of homosexuals and adulterers and oppresses women to the point of material possession has a great deal of evolution to experience before becoming acceptable in Western culture. This continues to be a violent religion and for passive liberals to put a shine on it is dangerous."

Aww, come on, the Christians have made a lot of progress in this regard, the past few hundred years, give em a chance! :)

A religious faith that sanctions the execution of homosexuals and adulterers and oppresses women to the point of material possession has a great deal of evolution to experience before becoming acceptable in Western culture. This continues to be a violent religion and for passive liberals to put a shine on it is dangerous.

Anonymous tells Halocsel:
"The learning centers of Baghdad, the libraries of Cordoba, the original thinkers and philosophers like Ibne Khaldoun (the founder of sociology), Averroes, Ibne Seena (Avecena)."

The vast majority of those oft referred to as “Muslim” scientists are Zoroaster worshiping Persians, as Ibn Seena cited above who were living in Arab dominated lands. That much had Ibn Khaldoun, cited above, claimed. Another thing Ibn Khaldoun wrote ;"The Arabs destroy every place they inhabit or even pass through.”

The centers mentioned above by Anonymous were mostly Greek science and math translated into Arabic by Assyrian and Aramaic Christian monks.
The greatest historical crime against science and math (and other disciplines) was committed by the Muslim “Guided” Caliph Omar when he had burnt down the largest Old World library of Alexandria. None of the alleged contributions of Muslims to science and mathematics and alchemy and astronomy, could compensate for a tiny fraction of knowledge lost in Alexandria at the hands of “The Guided One?”

Anonymous alleges again:
“True, the Islamic world does not have an equivalent of Harvard or MIT. The answer lies in the fact that European colonialism made them impoverished and unfortunately they overreacted to rejecting everything foreign.”

Excuses and more excuses! It is always someone else’s fault.
This is the victim mentality in action. The truth, which Muslims are afraid to face, is that their religion paralyses their mental capacity with superstitions and fears that they have lost their capacity to reason. Wake up people!

Hmmm, the direction of this thread again requires an update on the expenditures of the USA Taxpayers for our continuing War Against Terror and Aggression:

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count,

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto,

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured,

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, (3,371, combat 778 non-combat) and 86,664 – 94,561 Iraqi civilians, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf ,

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)
Iraq continues to move in the right direction as profits for oil revenue begin to make help in the reconstruction. The Iraqi government for example just signed a $3 billion dollar deal with the Chinese becoming the first foreign firm to enter such an agreement since the end of Saddam Hussein's regime, state-owned China National Petroleum Corp. (CNPC) this week won the right to develop the Al-Ahdab oil field south of Baghdad.

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

3. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is hopefully afoot.

4. NK has finally started to destroy in nuclear weapons’ capabilities.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys. Fortunately, our military did not take off the month of Ramadan.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

Oh, come on now, open up that Shadow Book and send us some of those Wiccan diet spells. Can you imagine said spells are being sold on e-Bay? The nerve of these bad witches to put a price on such a great way to reduce obesity!!!!

paganplace,

you have a good point. I thought about that the minute i pushed 'post'.

what i left out is 'liberal' when talking about democracy.

voting is necessary for democracy; it is not sufficient to guarntee freedom for all.

"does democracy have a chance in jordan or etc?"

Democracy does not mean freedom without guarantees of liberty. Or a value placed on that liberty for all. Many theocratic-leaning religious prove this point: the democratic elections Bush pushed for, only to put Hamas in power, for instance, or the people in America trying to get people to *vote* religiously command the removal of our own freedoms, here.

Though they stopped complaining about hemlines, guess they could get used to that. :)

i think the comment that jordanians think that american women are 'loose' is deserving of a comment. what the jordanians call loose is nothing more than freedom of (individual) expression. individual (immoral!!) expression could only be practiced in a democracy or under the veil of secrecy as it has been done in autocratic communities.

does democracy have a chance in jordan or etc?

halozcel:

You are so ignorant of history!

The learning centers of Baghdad, the libraries of Cordoba, the original thinkers and philosophers like Ibne Khaldoun (the founder of sociology), Averroes, Ibne Seena (Avecena).

Why isn't there an MIT in the Philippines, a catholic country? Why isn't there a Harvard in mostly Christian Latin America? Why is Haiti, a Christian country so impoverished?

Do you think the centuries old mosques of Turkey, Egypt, and the Taj Mahal were possible without advancement in science, architecture, and mathematics?

Why is Israel so dependent upon a $3,000 yearly aid from America?

Why is it that a significant population in America is opposed to evolution, stem cell research and is waiting for the Armageddon?

True, the Islamic world does not have an equivalent of Harvard or MIT. The answer lies in the fact that European colonialism made them impoverished and unfortunately they overreacted to rejecting everything foreign.

In today's global world all people should welcome knowledge no matter where it is coming from.

All humans are bonded together more so today than any time in the past.

Anonymous,

Please...
Would you please to write the names of science and technology universities founded by muslims ?

If muslim science and technology was flourishing 1000 years ago,where is present *islamic M.I.T.University* ?
Where are islamic Yale,Harvard,Oxford,Sorbonne Universities ?

To me,this is the correct question;
Does muslim know what University is ?

What muslim knows is Al-Ezher fanatical center which is called by someones as *University*

Tsk, Mike, you bring all that hostility, say it's really about 'what God wants,' and people's religion, whether or not they should be 'suffered to live' by Yer Vicarious Mightiness,' and wonder why there's war over religion.

Trust me, I've run into a few people claiming I shouldn't 'be suffered to live,' before.

Doesn't much matter which brand name people cite when they say it... at me, or each other.

It's all the same.

And, CCNL, if you're so willing to mock my religion with spurious claims about fluffy *commercial* sites, what makes you think I'd direct you to some 'real spells' if I thought you could learn those over the Net in the *first place?*

It's not the point, anyway. It's just what you and so many others *fixate* on.

Be patient. Samhain's coming. Soon the media will be *full* of people portraying our honoring of our ancestors as luridly as possible for your self-righteous titillation.

Mike:

What was the religion of those who colonized the world during the previous centuries and brought death and destruction to millions of people around the world.

And what was the religion of those who had to abandon their colonies but left situations that the people of those lands would continue to fight each other after the colonialists left--Kashmir, India-Pakistan, Iraq-Kuwait to cite only three examples.

What was the religion of those who colonized Australia and N. and S. America and decimated the native populations?

What was the religion of those who destroyed the civilizations of the Maya, Inca, and Aztecs?

What was the religion of those Europeans who committed the Holocaust. The expulsions of Jews actually started at the end of the 14th centuries which ultimately culminated the Holocaust.

What was the religion of the Oklahom City bomber, Tim McVeigh?

What was the religion of the Army of God fanatics who bombed numerous abortion clinics in America?

What was the religion of Rev. Jim Jones of Jonestown, Guiana who committed the heinous crimes there?

Do you want more?

America as a nation would be better off as would the world at large if the word Muslim disappeared.
You are at war with everyone. Jews, Christians, Hindus and athiests. There is not one religious or ethnic group that has been immune from being attacked by Muslims.
Just look around the world today, from America to Europe to the Middle East, India and Pakistan Russia and China and Indonesia and Austrailia.
All of us have been the victims of your cowardly terrorist attacks.
If there really was a God , he would not suffer any of you to live.

Halozcel wrote:

"American Victoria,probably P.Taylor or one of her friends(there are Turkish/Merve K or N.Bezirgan etc. and Indian women wrinting under Victoria nickname as well)
*it's a full month of introspection and sacrifice* Lets introspect a little.
-Why most of muslims are living in poverty ?
-Why most of muslims are fourth and fifth class men ?
-Why most of muslims are idle.May it be any correlation between *five time worshipping in a day* with muslim idleness ?
-Why Fine Arts like Painting and Sculpture are not flourished in islamic countries ?
-Why muslim athletes(especially women) are not successful in Olympic Games ? Where were the Muslim women swimmers in Hashama or Artistic Gymnast in Burqa ?
-Hurricane Gustav strengthened on the Gulf of Mexico and approaching to Texas.Does muslim know what Hurricane is ? Is there any book written by a white robbed fallah about tropical cyclone ?
****************************************************
Why is Haiti, a Christian country, in the Western world, the poorest country?

Go to Egypt, Turkey, and any Muslim country and you will find how art flourished in the Islamic world. Your ignorance is appaling.

True, not many Muslim women participated in the Olympics. But why is nudity promoted in the West? Why is the divorce rate so high in the West? Why are women used as machines and are discarded as soon as they get wrinkles. Why is it that Sarkozy married models and the two previous models were divorced soon after they got wrinkles on their faces?

If most Muslims were idle, you would not have found Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Malaysia some of the fastest growing economies of the world.

Only an idiot would say that Muslims do not know what a hurricane is. The idiots do not know that Muslim science and technology was flourishing when Europe was in the Dark Ages.

Participant, Participant, Participant,

Hmmm, threats, how unChristian but how Muslim of you!!!!

thank goodness all the hateful, closed-minded bigots of the world seem to be sitting at their computers and typing response comments in this forum--that way i don't run the risk of seeing you outside and punching you in the face.

do us all a favor and exercise some self-awareness and maturity for a change. quit looking for excuses to hate muslims for being "so different" from you because it's easy to to plow all of your disgruntlement at life on them in this political environment. how disappointing.

all the time you spend "researching" the so-called evil underbelly of islam and all muslims could be better channeled towards doing something that helps humanity, rather than posting your insipid and destructive thoughts, which--newsflash!--does not.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

And you have more better sources of Wiccan diet spells or Wiccan sources in general? Please share these with us.

Dear Usra Ghazi,

*We fast from negative thoughts and deeds-from being UNKIND or selfish*

I couldnt understand exactly.
Does it mean *muslim is unkind and selfish,but they try to pretend to be kind during Ramadan* or
*Muslim is unkind in eleven months,but only kind in Ramadan*

American Victoria,probably P.Taylor or one of her friends(there are Turkish/Merve K or N.Bezirgan etc. and Indian women wrinting under Victoria nickname as well)
*it's a full month of introspection and sacrifice* Lets introspect a little.
-Why most of muslims are living in poverty ?
-Why most of muslims are fourth and fifth class men ?
-Why most of muslims are idle.May it be any correlation between *five time worshipping in a day* with muslim idleness ?
-Why Fine Arts like Painting and Sculpture are not flourished in islamic countries ?
-Why muslim athletes(especially women) are not successful in Olympic Games ? Where were the Muslim women swimmers in Hashama or Artistic Gymnast in Burqa ?
-Hurricane Gustav strengthened on the Gulf of Mexico and approaching to Texas.Does muslim know what Hurricane is ? Is there any book written by a white robbed fallah about tropical cyclone ?

Jewdet Pasha/To the Pasha(You are same person),

Animal Beheading,at Eid al-Adha,Festival of Sacrifice/Feast of Beheading which was plagiarized from Jewish Legend *Abraham and his son Isaac*,has some rules/criteria in EU convention.If you want/desire to be member of EU,you shall,of cource,obey EU rules.

Do you advocate *animal beheading* in the middle of street ?

As the Panelist Usra Ghazi says,*try to be kind*.
Yes,it is difficult work,but you or grandchild of your grandchild may be successful,although I dont think unless you dont set free from Desert Rules based on stone age mentality.

This is a good work for the human being

I know that many religions practice fasting. I have Buddhist and Hindu friends who occasionally fast and when they do so they eat no food during that period. Muslims I know "fast" during the day and eat at night - which seems more like a time shift to me rather than an actual fast. Isn't calling a time shift - where you eat at night rather than during the day - "fasting" a bit dramatic? It just seems very disingenuous to me.

Yah. Impeccable sources as always, CCNL. Not.

:)

Witches, Witches, Witches Wherever You Are,

A free Wiccan/(Ramadan?) diet spell for your Book of Shadows:

"Get yourself a gold medallion and have the likeness of a fish engraved on it. You can find this at almost any good jewelry store. A small, plane medallion will do fine. If not, the power of the internet is brilliant.

Chant the following over the engraved medallion:

"Golden fish, I wear you,
In the belief that you will make me thin and beautiful.

Curb my eating, and let me eat fish and good food.

That will make me thin."

Now wear the medallion and go on a diet. The pounds will melt away with no struggle and staying to your diet will be amazingly easy."

For headache relief et al, you can get a free CD full of Wiccan spells at http://www.angelfire.com/wi3/witches/

But, I mean, don't let me stop you, CCNL. If you'd really like a bunch of vascular headaches, go house.

"And I see pagans also are experts in fasting/dieting. You would think a good Wiccan spell would suffice as a quick means to lose weight and/or appease the goddesses and/or remove the clouds covering a full Moon."

No, *you'd* think that, CCNL.

*We* learn what we can about things like where aspirin comes from, what it does, and otherwise learn what we can about how to deal with life. Which isn't, I might add, always about rich fat people trying to resist the 'temptation' to stuff their faces.

Sometimes, the food just ain't there. Or sometimes, a good diet isn't always about profitable 'suffering.'

Somehow, as 'superstitious' as you like to try and claim we are, I don't see you ponying up the practical headache remedies.

I heard on the Egyptian satellite channel, Al Masria, that scientists are gathering at a University in Cairo to do some kind of research dealing with the moon. I thought maybe the Egyptian scientists have discovered something new about the moon. Maybe they discovered something that relates to the structure and /or composition of that heavenly object and maybe that sheds life on its birth. Maybe , I thought, this thing that the astute scientists had discovered somehow explains the formation of the solar system or the whole Milky Way galaxy. Otherwise why would such a gaggle of prominent scientists gather at one place? This truly must be something big. Really big.

Few minutes in the news report I learned that those scientists are Muslim clerics. They are called Ulama in Arabic which doubles for a scholar and for a scientist. Ulama when referred to clerics mean scholars in jurisprudence. Why then that huge number of clerics are meeting in the Azhar University? To agree on the sighting of the new moon so as to collectively declare to the Muslims of the world the good tidings; the commencement of the holy month of Ramadan.

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

Hmmm, based on the views of others, my comments about gorging during the evening and nights of Ramadan is again a statement of fact.

And O'Victoria you might have a complicated Ramadan schedule but other than losing a few pounds what have you accomplished?? Gabriel is a myth and Mahound is long dead. Maybe the makings of another diet book????

And I see pagans also are experts in fasting/dieting. You would think a good Wiccan spell would suffice as a quick means to lose weight and/or appease the goddesses and/or remove the clouds covering a full Moon.

Interested? See http://free-love-spells.net/106.htm?gclid=CPLxg_Gf_YcCFSjTYAod7ARNEw or

http://e-witch.com/auction_details.php?name=Wiccan%20Diet%20Weight%20Loss%20Spells%20Rituals%20Magic&auction_id=239462

http://www.wildwitches.com/catalog/item/4854412/4926863.htm

Thanks for that info- I remember when that woman had liver failure from taking too much tylenol- and that's why I stay away from that- but maybe the cure is worse than the disease here- I'll look into it. :)

Also, Victoria, I'm not sure about Aleve, or whatever's in it, but you'll probably not want to combine that with messing with your water intake: these modern pain relievers are generally hard on the liver, which needs water to deal with that: considering where these headaches come from, taking those pills could be making it worse, actually. These fasts, whatever they're for, were invented around a very different rhythm of life than you may find in like Ohio or wherever. Don't hurt yourself. :)

"I drink the last sip of water and take an Alleve because I know I'll have a headache for a week-
from no coffee- every year the same- you think I'd learn by now an slow down before hand- actually I have- but not enough"

Actually, aspirin would probably work better, ...and hydration. If I were you I'd get off the coffee completely well in advance, when you can have as much water as you need, cause caffeine-withdrawal headaches and dehydration tend to exacerbate each other.

I'll share some of the practical aspects of Ramadan with those who care to know how it actually impacts Muslims, as opposed to CCNL's bizarre imagination-

I will wake up at about 4, and prepare a very light meal (last year it was oatmeal) and also I make coffee. I read the Qur'an for about 45 minutes to an hour as I like that quiet time.
(We read the enitre Qur'an every Ramadan, every Qur'an is divided into 30 portions for this purpose.)
Then I wake my husband around 5, we eat our oatmeal and drink a cup of coffee discuss what I just read until the sun rises and about 6:15AM.
I drink the last sip of water and take an Alleve because I know I'll have a headache for a week-
from no coffee- every year the same- you think I'd learn by now an slow down before hand- actually I have- but not enough.
Then we pray our morning prayer like always.

The we go back to sleep for an hour or so.

The we wake up and go through our day- no food- no gum- no water or liquid of any kind passes our lips until the sun sets- about 7:30 at night.

So it is a good 12 hours. And the bulk of our awake time.

It helps us to empathize with and remember those whose stomachs are not filled in the world.
It helps us to control our vast and rapacious consumptive natures.

I also find myself more busy during the day to distract myself from my hunger and thirst.
It takes a few days to align myself with- but my energy level is the same if not more during Ramadan.

At evenfall- I prepare dinner- I always have a rubbermaid container in the fridge with red and green pepper strips, carrots, scallions, celery, tomatoes (cherry) olives, and cheeses.

I also always have a light soup on hand.
And i keep hummus, baba ghanoush, cacik (yogurt-garlic dip) and lots of fresh bread.Also I usually have a rice pilaf on hand- or make it- we don't seem to eat alot of meat.

At sunset- I eat 2 dates and a half cup of milk.
That is all my stomach can take- it shrinks a little during the day-

Then we pray, and eat a light meal- comprised of the above.
Usually- I can not eat very much at all.

Not like my usual heavy dinner meal.

Then we pray again.
Sometimes after that we go to the mosque and pray the Tarawee which takes about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

Then it's home- maybe 10:30ish (our mosque is next door) and I may eat a sweet and drink some milk.

The bed- and back up at 4 etc etc...

So, you see- there isn't much time or opportunity (or desire or stomach capacity) for any gorging to take place.

Not drinking water is always the hardest part for me. We pray 2 times in the afternoon hours- and wash out our mouths with water- but we must be very careful not to swallow any.

This is a new schedule for me, as I just got married 2 years ago.

Before, my time was spent at the mosque- for many years I've prepared meals for about 100-150 people there, and served and cleaned up afterwards. I've headed up kitchens at 5 mosques before.
I've been feeding very large crowds for about 25 years.
Hope this little slice of life gives you all some insight into Ramadan-

It's not a fun holiday of gorging and getting drunk and getting alot of stuff-
it's a full month of introspection and sacrifice.

Peace!

(apologies, by the way, for punctuation errors, particularly dropped commas. Fluff in keyboard I'm presently removing. :) )

I think what made you mention Turkey is that the rotten smell of the Turkish sabatiyci journalists is reeking in this blog.

Before each Rmadan, they talk about Moslems stuffing their stomach with food. Before Eid Al-Adha, Haj Eid, they talk about Turks slaughtering their cows, Kurban, in the middle of the streets....

The same thing goes on and on every year in Turkey

And here we see the utter illogic of trying to apply your own cultural standards to another culture.

If Ramadan fasting was intended to be like Christian ideas of fasting are supposed to be, then they'd do it differently.

I mean, look how so many Catholics 'try to give up chocolate for Lent' and treat it like a 'New Year's Resolution' with as little thought or heed for it.

Having missed more than a few meals in my life cause I *couldn't* get food, say or night, well, I don't think these exercises are meant to be scaled according to 'how much virtuous suffering does this or that religion 'endure,' particularly not by each others' terms ...that's silly. Heck, I can simply *neglect to eat* and not notice for a day or two.

I would presume the Ramadan feast-fast cycle is meant to make people *conscious* of privation and plenty in terms of their own religious view, just like I think that for a lot of thoughtful Catholics, their Lenten observances kind of make the point that what they call 'suffering' is actually pretty trivial, in fact.

If anyone's comparing.

(And, don't feel too-singled out Muslims, CCNL talks like that at anyone-not-him. What he thinks he's 'liberated' from when he hasn't re-examined conservative Christian ideas, just decided he's entitled to be a troll about em and take no responsibility for his own opinions, I dunno.)

I liked this article, though. As much as some turned, say, Christmas into another facet of their exclusionary 'Culture War' I kind of like that season. Just as maybe there's a 'parallel universe' where it's Ramadan when the streets are quiet.

Yaknow, when people stop barking about my impiety and somehow being responsible for the consumerism and endless Muzak barrage of the places they haunt trying to buy their holiday gifts... there's lights and people trying to enjoy their holiday.

There's that secularized 'holiday spirit' that can happen when people let themselves relax and enjoy it. And, hey, if there's any rather Elf-like Pagans in Yule colors haunting hotel and airport bars keeping the stranded and lonely
Christians a little cheer, what's the harm. :)

I mean, instead of scolding Muslims for inappropriately displaying a Protestant work ethic and 'losing productivity' over something so trivial as *observing a religious and comunity feast in their manner,* well, sometimes Ramadan falls in the 'Western' holiday season.

Don't be a Scrooge. That's the great thing about a diversity. We can help each other in this regard, instead of trying to harsh on each other.

Everyone deserves a holiday. How bout we cover for each other.

Ramadan fasting is a ritual that is defeating its purpose. If it is meant to limit food intake it is failing miserably. Those who abstain from eating during the light hours of the day, do spend most of the dark hours gorging themselves. Productivity during that month approaches nil. Those who spend all night up whether eating or entertaining themselves cannot do any meaningful work during the day. Students sleep openly in their classes and teachers don’t dare make a move. Tunis tried to ban fasting during Ramadan, but there was such an outcry that the government shelved that project. It is ironic that if any people in this planet can least afford to abstain from work for a whole month of the year it is the Muslims, and yet they of all people seem to follow the ritualistic part of it . They make a big fuss of this “holiday” and surrounds that form of worship with a circus-like atmosphere when it should be private communion between them and their god.

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

The only Muslim in Islam who does not gorge herself during the evenings and nights of Ramadan. Must be all that Christian training!!!

I don't know why no one visits Turkey in Ramadan and reports how many of the so-called Moslem Turks fast during this holy month. It is important that one of these interfaith youth thing goes and see the Islam of the Ataturk grandchildren.

They will be surprised to see that Turks don't really fast in Ramadan, which is the third of the five pillars of Islam. They also don't pray. And, if they don't pray, then they don't pay Zakat because they can barely survive with their credit cards. And we don't have bother with Haj.

The poor Turks are standing on the first pillar of Islam which is the Shahada and they don't know that they are failing this one too!!!!

Thanks to the descendents of Shabbati Zvi for creating this sort of Islam which created today's modern Turkey!!

I mentioned Turkey because it is a real pluralistic society. It is a Moslem country but with a fake Talmudic roots! It is the place where west meets east. In facts it is the place where west hugs east. A Moslem women can marry a Christian man by the Ataturk Shabbtian laws. So they interfaith youth guys will be able to write many reports about the hugs which take place during Ramdan in Taksim Square between West and East. Now that is real pluralism.

However, Jordan isn't really a pluralist society. It is a place full of people. In fact it so full that it is about to explode. Palestinians, Iraqi refugees,..etc. When the holy month starts, Jordanians will be looking west to see their Palestinians relative being slaughtered by the Israelis, and when they look to the east, Iraqi refugees will not see they relatives and land being destroyed but also their black future. This what Ramdan will be like in Jordan.

Ms. Usra must pack and go to Istanbul to real pluralism and modernity and leave the place of suffering and poverty because no one in the "Arab-speaking world" really cares about how Americans celebrate Ramadan , Eids, or even care about what American women are all about.

When Ramadan starts, in a couple of days- I'll share some of my schedule. There simply isn't time, nor shrunken stomach capacity to gorge oneself during Ramadan. Now, I'm cleaning in preparation for it.

Hmmm, so Anon Whomever You Are, you do admit at least that Muslims gorge themselves with food and drink during the entire evening. Thanks for clearing that up!!!

I lose a little weight during Ramadan- :)

A salaamu alaikum and thanks Sister.
If you've never been on this forum, prepare yourself for the islamophobic onslaught.

Don't worry about it though- we're all learning and growing together. Too bad you missed the speech by the first african american presidential nomminee by a major party delivered on the 45th anniversary of Martin Luther King Kr.'s I Have a Dream sppech.

(an early)Ramadan Mubarak my dear.
Peace

"Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Anon, Anon, Anon Wherever You Are,

References to show that Muslims do not gorge themselves with food and drink every evening of..."

*******************************************************
There is a big difference between "gorging the food all night" and "gorge the food and drink every evening" This is why I say you have no credibility and obsessed with Muslims and Islam.

Seek help!

Anon, Anon, Anon Wherever You Are,

References to show that Muslims do not gorge themselves with food and drink every evening of Ramadan??? Put a big "burp" on it and sleep well!!!

" Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

The "fast" during the month of Ramadan is indeed strange as Muslims start fasting all day, gorge themselves with food and drink all night, then sleep most of the fasting day away and repeat said performance for the entire month. And Muslims call that "fasting"????"

*********************************************************

All FALSE. Muslims neither gorge food all night, nor do they sleep all day.

You have obsessive, compulsive personality disorder. Your obsession against Muslims results in distorting everything Muslims do.

You have no credibility and are incapable of a civil discourse.

The "fast" during the month of Ramadan is indeed strange as Muslims start fasting all day, gorge themselves with food and drink all night, then sleep most of the fasting day away and repeat said performance for the entire month. And Muslims call that "fasting"????