On Arun Gandhi

Anonymous Jew:
You say “We did not steal(Palestine). We were stolen from. And we have returned. The fact that we actually purchased much of the land we returned to is ironic, but we will let that pass.”
In 1967 the Palestinians had titles for 75% of West Jerusalem, 100% of East Jerusalem , all the property of the West Bank and 90% of the land on which situated the entity called Israel. Check your data before making macabre claims. Now who is the thief and who is the victim?

Mr. Patel,

You are quite write in suggesting that Muslims and Jews should seek fair treatment for one another, and I, for one, have been seeking to do so, rampant Muslim anti-Jewish racism notwithstanding. I do this notwithstanding the fact that three million Jewish refugees from the Middle East look across the seas to ancient civilizations destroyed. I do this, quite simply, because I am a Jew, because I welcome the stranger, not when he is trying to kill me, but in the hopes that he will accept my strangeness, as well.

Arun Ghandi's hate speech was despicable. That he is still on this site is reprehensible. That you voice your disapproval is commendable. That you reduce the issue to what's good for the goose is good for the gander is not. Mr. Ali's essay, which I have just read is objectionable, indeed. Had I read it earlier I would have commented and probably still will. However, he has nothing to do with Arun Ghandi's loathsome rhetoric.

Jews do speak out for Muslim rights everywhere, including on this site, often in the face of haters like one "Moody," who is chock full of the old racist cannards. I have yet to see one Muslim post his/her concerns about antisemitism. Through all the conferences and colloquia I have attended, I have yet to see one Muslim academic speak out against antisemititsm, while Jews are in the forefront of those seeking tolerance of our Muslim brothers and sisters.

But we Jews are a patient people, an optimistic people. I am in a covenant with Hashem, and normative Judaism holds that the Lord has a covenant with all peoples. I eschew racism in all its forms, but, yes, if I am not for myself, who will be for me? We Jews say this more and more to one another now because we believe we have been too concerned about racism against others and too little concerned about racism directed against us.

I would welcome some comment on the treatment of Middle Eastern Jews in Syria, Egypt, Iran, Yemen, Iraq. I would welcome some comment about how they were persecuted and why there are next to none left there. I would welcome some comment about the continuous Nazi style anti-Jewish racism that abounds in those nations and in so many others, Saudi Arabia prominent among them. I would welcome some comment about the rights of those Middle Eastern Jews to return to their countries.

As for Israel, I would welcome some comment about why Jews do not have the right to self-determination. We were exiled from our country by the Romans, then by the Christians, then by the Turkish Muslims. Throughout, Jews remained despite persecution, right through the Crusades. Only a few years ago, despite the overwhelming evidence that the Clinton "Peace Plan" could not work, ever optimistic and patient, Israeli Jews went along with it. Palistinians got 96% of what they wanted. Palistinian Christians began to flee into Israel as Muslim violence against them accelerated, and Israel, of course, accepted them. They are still fleeing into Israel.

Well, the so-called acceptance of the plan revealed itself for the sham that it was with renewed violence against Israeli Jews. How long would the US tolerate violence such as Israel has undergone, if it came say, from Mexico? Afterall, the US stole California, Texas, and much of the Southwest from Mexico. How long? A minute? Thirty seconds?

We did not steal. We were stolen from. And we have returned. The fact that we actually purchased much of the land we returned to is ironic, but we will let that pass. We are going nowhere. The word "Jerusalem" is mentioned thousands of times in the Hebrew Bible. Do you know how many times it is mentioned in the Arabic Koran? None. Not a single time. Not once. When Jews pray, they face Jerusalem. They always have. Prayers end, "Next year, in Jerusalem."

When Moshe Dyan won the six-day war, he stood at the Temple Mount, and Jews all over the world stood with him. We could pray in Solomon's temple. This year, this year in Jerusalem. But no, we could not. The Palestinian Muslims would be too distressed. But we are distressed, Mr. Patel, very distressed. We remain distressed.

When we go to Hebrew University and see all the burned boys, the boys with burns suffered because they were too worried about doing harm to innocents when entering the homes of terrorists, well, we are distressed.

I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out at the corruption among Palestinians, of so many living high on the hog, while others starve, the sort of thing that ended with the killing of Arafat's nephew, that reveals itself in some having multiple Mercedes while others have nothing. I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out at the fact that one on every three murders among Palestinians is an honor killing.

I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out against Gujurat. Against INdia, where they are second-class citizens at best. Safer to strike out against Jews, I guess. Or, at least, that is what they appear to think.

Sadly, with my own commitment to justice, I am one of those who makes it safer.

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

Mr. Patel,

You are quite write in suggesting that Muslims and Jews should seek fair treatment for one another, and I, for one, have been seeking to do so, rampant Muslim anti-Jewish racism notwithstanding. I do this notwithstanding the fact that three million Jewish refugees from the Middle East look across the seas to ancient civilizations destroyed. I do this, quite simply, because I am a Jew, because I welcome the stranger, not when he is trying to kill me, but in the hopes that he will accept my strangeness, as well.

Arun Ghandi's hate speech was despicable. That he is still on this site is reprehensible. That you voice your disapproval is commendable. That you reduce the issue to what's good for the goose is good for the gander is not. Mr. Ali's essay, which I have just read is objectionable, indeed. Had I read it earlier I would have commented and probably still will. However, he has nothing to do with Arun Ghandi's loathsome rhetoric.

Jews do speak out for Muslim rights everywhere, including on this site, often in the face of haters like one "Moody," who is chock full of the old racist cannards. I have yet to see one Muslim post his/her concerns about antisemitism. Through all the conferences and colloquia I have attended, I have yet to see one Muslim academic speak out against antisemititsm, while Jews are in the forefront of those seeking tolerance of our Muslim brothers and sisters.

But we Jews are a patient people, an optimistic people. I am in a covenant with Hashem, and normative Judaism holds that the Lord has a covenant with all peoples. I eschew racism in all its forms, but, yes, if I am not for myself, who will be for me? We Jews say this more and more to one another now because we believe we have been too concerned about racism against others and too little concerned about racism directed against us.

I would welcome some comment on the treatment of Middle Eastern Jews in Syria, Egypt, Iran, Yemen, Iraq. I would welcome some comment about how they were persecuted and why there are next to none left there. I would welcome some comment about the continuous Nazi style anti-Jewish racism that abounds in those nations and in so many others, Saudi Arabia prominent among them. I would welcome some comment about the rights of those Middle Eastern Jews to return to their countries.

As for Israel, I would welcome some comment about why Jews do not have the right to self-determination. We were exiled from our country by the Romans, then by the Christians, then by the Turkish Muslims. Throughout, Jews remained despite persecution, right through the Crusades. Only a few years ago, despite the overwhelming evidence that the Clinton "Peace Plan" could not work, ever optimistic and patient, Israeli Jews went along with it. Palistinians got 96% of what they wanted. Palistinian Christians began to flee into Israel as Muslim violence against them accelerated, and Israel, of course, accepted them. They are still fleeing into Israel.

Well, the so-called acceptance of the plan revealed itself for the sham that it was with renewed violence against Israeli Jews. How long would the US tolerate violence such as Israel has undergone, if it came say, from Mexico? Afterall, the US stole California, Texas, and much of the Southwest from Mexico. How long? A minute? Thirty seconds?

We did not steal. We were stolen from. And we have returned. The fact that we actually purchased much of the land we returned to is ironic, but we will let that pass. We are going nowhere. The word "Jerusalem" is mentioned thousands of times in the Hebrew Bible. Do you know how many times it is mentioned in the Arabic Koran? None. Not a single time. Not once. When Jews pray, they face Jerusalem. They always have. Prayers end, "Next year, in Jerusalem."

When Moshe Dyan won the six-day war, he stood at the Temple Mount, and Jews all over the world stood with him. We could pray in Solomon's temple. This year, this year in Jerusalem. But no, we could not. The Palestinian Muslims would be too distressed. But we are distressed, Mr. Patel, very distressed. We remain distressed.

When we go to Hebrew University and see all the burned boys, the boys with burns suffered because they were too worried about doing harm to innocents when entering the homes of terrorists, well, we are distressed.

I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out at the corruption among Palestinians, of so many living high on the hog, while others starve, the sort of thing that ended with the killing of Arafat's nephew, that reveals itself in some having multiple Mercedes while others have nothing. I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out at the fact that one on every three murders among Palestinians is an honor killing.

I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out against Gujurat. Against INdia, where they are second-class citizens at best. Safer to strike out against Jews, I guess. Or, at least, that is what they appear to think.

Sadly, with my own commitment to justice, I am one of those who makes it safer.

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

Mr. Patel,

You are quite write in suggesting that Muslims and Jews should seek fair treatment for one another, and I, for one, have been seeking to do so, rampant Muslim anti-Jewish racism notwithstanding. I do this notwithstanding the fact that three million Jewish refugees from the Middle East look across the seas to ancient civilizations destroyed. I do this, quite simply, because I am a Jew, because I welcome the stranger, not when he is trying to kill me, but in the hopes that he will accept my strangeness, as well.

Arun Ghandi's hate speech was despicable. That he is still on this site is reprehensible. That you voice your disapproval is commendable. That you reduce the issue to what's good for the goose is good for the gander is not. Mr. Ali's essay, which I have just read is objectionable, indeed. Had I read it earlier I would have commented and probably still will. However, he has nothing to do with Arun Ghandi's loathsome rhetoric.

Jews do speak out for Muslim rights everywhere, including on this site, often in the face of haters like one "Moody," who is chock full of the old racist cannards. I have yet to see one Muslim post his/her concerns about antisemitism. Through all the conferences and colloquia I have attended, I have yet to see one Muslim academic speak out against antisemititsm, while Jews are in the forefront of those seeking tolerance of our Muslim brothers and sisters.

But we Jews are a patient people, an optimistic people. I am in a covenant with Hashem, and normative Judaism holds that the Lord has a covenant with all peoples. I eschew racism in all its forms, but, yes, if I am not for myself, who will be for me? We Jews say this more and more to one another now because we believe we have been too concerned about racism against others and too little concerned about racism directed against us.

I would welcome some comment on the treatment of Middle Eastern Jews in Syria, Egypt, Iran, Yemen, Iraq. I would welcome some comment about how they were persecuted and why there are next to none left there. I would welcome some comment about the continuous Nazi style anti-Jewish racism that abounds in those nations and in so many others, Saudi Arabia prominent among them. I would welcome some comment about the rights of those Middle Eastern Jews to return to their countries.

As for Israel, I would welcome some comment about why Jews do not have the right to self-determination. We were exiled from our country by the Romans, then by the Christians, then by the Turkish Muslims. Throughout, Jews remained despite persecution, right through the Crusades. Only a few years ago, despite the overwhelming evidence that the Clinton "Peace Plan" could not work, ever optimistic and patient, Israeli Jews went along with it. Palistinians got 96% of what they wanted. Palistinian Christians began to flee into Israel as Muslim violence against them accelerated, and Israel, of course, accepted them. They are still fleeing into Israel.

Well, the so-called acceptance of the plan revealed itself for the sham that it was with renewed violence against Israeli Jews. How long would the US tolerate violence such as Israel has undergone, if it came say, from Mexico? Afterall, the US stole California, Texas, and much of the Southwest from Mexico. How long? A minute? Thirty seconds?

We did not steal. We were stolen from. And we have returned. The fact that we actually purchased much of the land we returned to is ironic, but we will let that pass. We are going nowhere. The word "Jerusalem" is mentioned thousands of times in the Hebrew Bible. Do you know how many times it is mentioned in the Arabic Koran? None. Not a single time. Not once. When Jews pray, they face Jerusalem. They always have. Prayers end, "Next year, in Jerusalem."

When Moshe Dyan won the six-day war, he stood at the Temple Mount, and Jews all over the world stood with him. We could pray in Solomon's temple. This year, this year in Jerusalem. But no, we could not. The Palestinian Muslims would be too distressed. But we are distressed, Mr. Patel, very distressed. We remain distressed.

When we go to Hebrew University and see all the burned boys, the boys with burns suffered because they were too worried about doing harm to innocents when entering the homes of terrorists, well, we are distressed.

I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out at the corruption among Palestinians, of so many living high on the hog, while others starve, the sort of thing that ended with the killing of Arafat's nephew, that reveals itself in some having multiple Mercedes while others have nothing. I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out at the fact that one on every three murders among Palestinians is an honor killing.

I wonder that more Muslims do not cry out against Gujurat. Against INdia, where they are second-class citizens at best. Safer to strike out against Jews, I guess. Or, at least, that is what they appear to think.

Sadly, with my own commitment to justice, I am one of those who makes it safer.

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

you havent proven anything k-
just saying your opinion over and over again doesnt make it anything more than your opinion-

as ive challenged you repeatedly to post ONE INSTANCE WHERE I HAVE LIED-
and you havent come up with ANYTHING-

it seems you have become that of which you accuse.

WoWW writes:"it probably shows that you have bias against islam calling others liars whereas you are so truthful anybody talking about christianity judaism you bring islam is violent"

I have shown where Mullah Victoria has lied. I have provided links to show where you can go and read see the lies she has told. Why don't you provide where I have not been truthful about christianity or judaism. I know the knee jerk reaction of any muslim. Ask a question about Islam and instead of getting a straight answer it invariably is a finger at jews and christians to show how awful they are. How does that answer anything about Islam?

So please point out where I have lied about any of the religions? You tip your hand when you say you

"kafir and christian who sez is now liberated [probably converted to judaism] the hidden agenda blog."

I know you cannot help yourself when many hundreds of verses in the Quran Allah curses the jews and tells the muslim that he hates the jews.

And then you say:
"anti semitic comments[ which i didnt think they were] should also shed some light about folks who infiltrate these posts and just cry about the same thing which they have been saying for the last some years"

Not surprising you would not consider anyone saying that jews have elected to be violent and are leading the world in violence etc. to be anti-semtic. Arun Gandhi is a dhimmi who is incapable of doing the simple math of seeing how many muslims have been killed by the jews over the last 60 years and how many muslim have been killed by other muslims over the same time, and then write what he wrote with any decency. Pakistani mullahs killed 3 million Bangalis in 1971 for the bangalis being not proper muslims but half hindus. In Sudan about 4 million (mostly muslims) have been killed by other muslims and the killings are still going on. Add to that the killings that Saddam did of his own muslims over the years, or Assad of Syria did, or Hussain of Jordan did, or the fighting between the palestinians have done and any number that you can conjure up for the jews or the americans killing of the muslims is put to shame. Go ahead do the simple math.
Do you know why muslims kill the muslims so much and so often? They have been doing it since the time of Muhammad. Why?

kafir and your fellow accomplices why dont u guyz discuss judaism instead harp all the time about islam it probably shows that you have bias against islam calling others liars whereas you are so truthful anybody talking about christianity judaism you bring islam is violent in the blog instead of discussing about the topic washington post when apologizes for anti semitic comments[ which i didnt think they were] should also shed some light about folks who infiltrate these posts and just cry about the same thing which they have been saying for the last some years taking readers away from the discussion or washington post can introduce a new blog for friendz like kafir and christian who sez is now liberated [probably converted to judaism] the hidden agenda blog.

Eboo:

You son of Gujrathi. Forget not you were born in the Back Yard of Gandhiji's house. How come you say Mr. Arun is hurting, while he is speaking the truth. Have you ever heard America is a free country. Freedom of speech is fundamental to the rights of every human.

Arun Gandhi is a noble man. And he is certainly not a bigot.

Many Christian fail to remember that our Saviour Jesus Christ was a Jew. I was appalled recently when our local librarian referred to the Holocaust as a "sad" time.

Indeed, 6 million men women and tiny children is more than sad, it is an abomination.

Katherine Lloyd

Anonymous:
Since you mentioned Dr.Wafa Sultan's name, I am posting a link to her interview with AlJazeera TV.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-grpj&p=wafa%20sultan%20interview&type=

Mullah Victoria,

You are pathetic and a pathological liar. People can read for themselves, and they can decide whether the posts that I am addressing there are valid or not.

are you kidding k?
how are 3 posts that exclaim im a liar proof of anything?

your references are your own posts calling me a liar!
what does that substantiate?

i notice you never use MY WORDS-but post only your own accusations.

you must be very frustrated in your search.

just because you say something many times, doesnt make it true.

now youre just being silly.

A- k says victoria is a liar
B- k says on another post victoria is a liar
C- therefore, A & B = victoria must be a liar?

how desparate for attention are you anyway?

Mullah Victoria Writes: " just repeating an opinion doesnt change it from being a subjective opinion k-
youre welcome to your opinion, but you have given no proof."

Victoria, you are a disgusting bald faced liar, and the more the readers here get to know your pathological need to lie the better off they will be. The readers who are interested can look at the discussion around

**************
Casual Observations' post of January 23 3:40 pm
January 21st, 2008 7:36 PM
in this thread

and posts in
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/muslims_in_europe/all_comments.html
around my posts at
January 24, 2008 1:18 am
January 23, 2008 3:33 pm
January 19, 2008 3:13 PM
******************

Any statement you make should be discounted and ignored. It is a good idea to post this reminder occasionally in response to your posts to alert the new readers. Ibrahim pointed out that lying and deception is acceptable in Islam and you seem to have accepted that since you have not the slightest shame about lying or making up outrageously false facts.

Mr. Patel,

You would have pleasantly shocked me if your essay had just stopped at the criticism of Arun Gandhi's article but somehow you brought your narrow-minded Islamist view point into the same essay.

Comapring Jews with Muslims: Jews with one nation under constant threat of being wiped out by Muslims has about 30 percent Muslim population. How many Jews or Non-Muslims live in 50 plus intolerant Islamic nations, including land of your very "compassionate and tolerant" prophet??

Just one more thing: even the scathing and extremely insulting writings by Gandhi against Jews did not bring out even one bodily injury or death threat against Gandhi.

And you compared that with Ayaan Ali Hirsi!! How many death threats against her?? Does she have any freedom to move around? And what happened to her friend Van Gogh? Religion of peace??

just repeating an opinion doesnt change it from being a subjective opinion k-
youre welcome to your opinion, but you have given no proof.

Amen Dr. Patel. This is beautifully said...

I want to make a point about the Hillel quote. The purpose of the quote is that we should all endeavor to live lives in balance.

If I am never for myself, then who will be for me. Translation... if I do not take care of myself, how can I expect others to do it? This is a viewpoint that not only extends to the individual but also to the Jewish community. If I am sick with bronchitis but I still go to work, how can I expect others to take care of me. Likewise, if the Judaism is demonized by hate speech and we do not defend ourselves, how can we expect others to do so?

If I am only for myself, what am I? Translation: If I am selfish and do not help others, then what kind of person am I? If I do not help others in need, if I only concern myself with myself and my community alone, what kind of person does that make me? Implication: not a very good one.

If not now, when? Translation: lets start working toward that balance in our lives today. Lets start balancing the needs to help, assist, love and defend ourselves and our own personal communities with the need to do so for others.

Let's be good to ourselves and good to each other.

Caliph
The Europeans are not going to Hell because they added four continents to their own to control 5 of the 7 continents. They also added the Moon and now in the process of adding the rest of our sister planets, and eventually the whole Universe. Deal with that and stop whining. You and your like should accept this situation as Allah’s will, since according to your beliefs, not a hair falls of your head without Allah’s consent.
My personal assessment, though, of how this situation came to be is that while the Muslims were busy debating how many nymphs each true believer in Allah and His Prophet will have in Paradise, the Europeans were undergoing transformation of their worldview; from Renaissance to Reformation to Exploration to Industrial Revolution etc.

Caliph,

The kafirs will not pay jiziya to the followers of the arab warlord, and slavery just does not pay anymore ( did you even bother reading that Islam killed about 20 million African Kafirs in the slave trade? And then all those slaves from South Asia!!) and the jihad does not pay anymore since the Europeans got more technically advanced. Immigration and moving to Europe was paying off, and now the Kafirs have even woken up to that.

Perhaps this will encourage the muslims to get off their behinds and start working and trying to provide for themselves. Looting and stealing from others does not work. Muslims should learn to control their populations because the Kafirs are not going to let them march in as they overpopulate and destroy their own countries.

Mullah Victoria writes:"as for the repeated accusations of lies, it is sad- but unsubstantiated.
if there were examples surely one of the accusers would have found some by now."

You really are one unbelievably pathetic bald faced liar. Unsubstantiated? Your nose has been rubbed in the lies you tell, and you have the gall to say unsubstantiated. Anyone can read and see for themselves. Sheesh!

Who are in Hell? The answer is thieves and land grabbers of 4 cintinents and who looted whole world and are still looting. This is my last post where children of greatest thieves on earth are free to write. Muslims defeated those European thieves several times in holy land in the past and will do it again. Europeans are enemy of Prophet Moses, Jesus (Peace be upon them) and those Europeans introduced interest based economy and are eating poorest's blood all the time. World Muslims who ruled this World for more than a thousands years before European Industrial Revolution or Anglo Saxons/Europeans who grabbed whole world through power of WMD and have stolen 4 Continents permanently out of only 7 Continents?

Continents

BY SIZE

#1 Asia - (44,579,000 sq km)
#2 Africa - (30,065,000 sq km)
#3 North America - (24,256,000 sq km)
#4 South America - (17,819,000 sq km)
#5 Antarctica - (13,209,000 sq km)
#6 Europe - (9,938,000 sq km)
#7 Australia/Oceania - (7,687,000 sq km)

BY POPULATION 2005 est.

#1 Asia - (3,879,000,000)
#2 Africa - (877,500,000)
#3 Europe - (727,000,000)
#4 North America - (501,500,000)
#5 South America - (379,500,000)
#6 Australia/Oceania - (32,000,000)
#7 Antarctica - (0)

Thus total area of Asia and Africa is:

#1 Asia - (44,579,000 sq km)
#2 Africa - (30,065,000 sq km)
Total 74,644,000 sq km

Thus total population of Asia and Africa is:

#1 Asia - (3,879,000,000)
#2 Africa - (877,500,000)
Total 4,756,500,000

Thus almost 5 billion people live in Asia and Africa

And how much land Europeans are occupying through their power of WMD?

#3 North America - (24,256,000 sq km)
#4 South America - (17,819,000 sq km)
#5 Antarctica - (13,209,000 sq km)
#6 Europe - (9,938,000 sq km)
#7 Australia/Oceania - (7,687,000 sq km)
Total 72,909,000 sq km

How much population European dominated land?

#3 Europe - (727,000,000)
#4 North America - (501,500,000)
#5 South America - (379,500,000)
#6 Australia/Oceania - (32,000,000)
#7 Antarctica - (0)
Total 1,640,000,000

Thus 4,756,500,000 people are living in Asia and Africa consisting 74,644,000 sq km are and on the other hand

1,640,000,000 Europeans are living in European dominated area of 72,909,000 sq km.
Europeans are occupying almost same land in size though population ratio is 3 to 1.
So where is justice of equal opportunity for food, shelter and Wealth as those Europeans are also holding most of the wealth of this world through their power WMD.

Where are true education and truth and only truth?
Where is WMD and not in Persian, 7000 years old Civilization?
Stop singing WMD in Persia a country of Hafiz, Sadi and so on.

So where is equal justice?
More is in my book in:

http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581128770

richard/casual observer-

i was watching a news clip on tv- on cnn-
if they were wrong- take it up with the network

as for the repeated accusations of lies, it is sad- but unsubstantiated.
if there were examples surely one of the accusers would have found some by now.

well, this is sad

Maybe Victoria needs to rethink her role as Islamic Propagandist on Washington Post forums.

On PostGlobal she posts-

"i just saw a clip on the news where 100s of women from the gaza strip were desparately trying to escape gaza at the egyptian border-
60 women were shot and wounded" (1-22,11:25am)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/2007/12/bhutto_assassinated_whither_pa/comments.html#comments

REALLY? Readers should question everything she posts on both boards and get their news from Washington Post/Newsweek publications.

"The protests occurred at the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt. Scores of Gaza residents rallied there throughout the afternoon, demanding that Egypt open the crossing to let in supplies. Many of the protesters were female members of the armed Hamas movement, who climbed atop the jeeps of Egyptian security forces and waved Palestinian flags. Egyptian police used clubs and water cannons to drive back the protesters."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012200360.html?hpid=moreheadlines

Our Caliph writes;
"At this he said, "What a pleasurable thing it is that tomorrow I will be meeting Muhammad and his Companions."

Dear Caliph,
You never completed the quote; it should have ended with these two words... IN HELL! Mohammed poor fellow for sure is actually burning in Hell.

Hazrat Bilal you say "...Hazrat Bilal returned to Syria and then lived there permanently and continued taking part in jihad."
That sealed Syria's fate to this day, another Islamic cesspool.

Do tell us please what kind of Jihad did Bilal take part in? I can bet he was a warrior and "converted/reverted/killed" people for Islam. This is the jihad that Insahllah! We Kafirs will stifle for you Muslims in the modern world today.

"they have a principal in Islam called "Taqiyeh" where it is Halal or "permissible" to lie in order to advance their religious causes"

victoria and others have placed their faith in a belief system encouraging them to lie to unbelievers for "religious causes"? but what keeps them from being lied to by their religious leaders for "religious causes"? if they are told it is because they "believe" how do they know that is not a lie? and what sort of "all powerful creator" can't defend himself and needs his followers to lie for his causes?

Caliph writes:
"Islam does not allow slavery and many slaves were freed."

Caliph you do not know Islam very well then. Muhammad enslaved thousands. He owned slaves, each of his wives owned many slaves. He gifted slaves to his followers. He traded slaves.
It is true that "freeing" a slave is considered a good deed, but it was not mandatory and owning and trading of slaves was codified. Slavery exists in the Islamic world to this day. You better read the absolute devestation that Islam caused the continent of Africa. How could a culture or a civilization develop when you have raiders coming in regularly to raid and carry off the young and healthy men. Africa has suffered that at the hands of the Arab muslims since the time of Muhammad. What the H*ll do you think is going on in Darfur right now?

Muslims alway trot out Bilal. Read the link I gave you. The attack was and is against the Kafir blacks of africa, i.e. the majority. The slaves were then converted to islam.

033.052
PICKTHAL: It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth, nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is ever Watcher over all things.

If Islam does not allow slaver, then tell me what is allah talking about "right hand possesseth"? The above verse is the one that the sultan and the moghuls used to have harems of thousand of female sex slaves. Islam allows four wives but as many right hand possessions as you want.

Please go learn your Islam.

Caliph:
Islam never legally banned slavery.There is a flourishing slave trade in Sudan till this day despite the UN ban on such a practices. Mohammed Ali, the founder of the last Egyptian dynasty, was the worlds most prolific slave trader the world had ever seen. In fact the main reason he had invaded Sudan in the 19th Century was to trade in slaves.
The Arabic term for a Negro is "Abd", which is "Slave". The Muslims of north Sudan who do not look different than the people of southern Sudan refer to their neighbors to the south as "Abeed" which is plural of Abd', This is why the South shall , Allah willing, soon secede.

A. Kafir and all Kafirs:

Muslims and Islam is two different things as Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon him) and so called Roman or European Christians are two different things as Jews who used to get two heavenly food and today's so called Jews are different things.

Islam does not allow slavery and many slaves were freed.

Hazrat Bilal (RA)

From:

http://www.inter-islam.org/Actions/ir78.html

Hazrat Bilal
Hazrat Bilal's Two Special Services

Who is there who may be unaware of Hazrat Bilal's intense love for and losing himself into the Apostle's contemplation. Prior to Islam and during the incipience of Islam, his life passed in slavery, amid extreme woes, afflictions and troubles. After manumission, (release from slavery) he remained in the company of the Holy Prophet during residence and in journeys, and used to be his muezzin (one who gives call for prayers) and treasurer. ........
Hazrat Bilal then came to reside in Damascus. During this stay at Damascus he once dreamed of the Holy Prophet , the Holy Prophet said, ‘Bilal! What is this oppression? You never come to us.’ When he woke up he went to the holy city of Madina. There Hazrat Hasan and Hazrat Husain, the grandchildren of the prophet requested him to shout the prayer-call.

There was no chance of refusing their request. He began to recite the prayer-call. When the sound of the prayer-call of the prophetic era reached people's ears, a loud lamentation arose in Madina. Crying women stirred out of their houses. After a few days' stay there, Hazrat Bilal returned to Syria and then lived there permanently and continued taking part in jihad.

When the time of his death approached, his wife, saying, "Alas! Alas!' began to lament. At this he said, "What a pleasurable thing it is that tomorrow I will be meeting Muhammad and his Companions".

Around A.H. 20 he passed away and was buried in Damascus (Syria).

Kafir:
You and others seem to be incensed by the many lies of Victoria and Caliph and those others of their cult. You know that they have a principal in Islam called "Taqiyeh" where it is Halal or "permissible" to lie in order to advance their religious causes . So I would not expect them to feel any guilt for lying or be shamed into telling the truth, when they consider it (truth) against their interests.

TERROR WATCH- JIHAD'S LONG REACH:

This is a long and informative article by Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball. I found it on the NEWSWEEK site following the other articles posted on the "Is Islam Violent" thread refuting Victoria's claims. (Link below)

"A prime example of the Brotherhood's continued influence, says Fandy, can be seen through the activities of Sheik Yousef Al Qaradawi, a highly visible Egyptian cleric who, from his current base in Qatar, makes regular appearances on the talk of shows of Al-Jazeera. (Fandy says Qaradawi has strong influence over the hiring of Al-Jazeera correspondents.) Qaradawi's stature is such that he was a featured speaker last year at a National Festival on Heritage and Culture in Saudi Arabia that was publicly welcomed by that country's de facto ruler, Crown Prince Abdullah.

But court documents in the Biheiri case paint a very different picture of Qaradawi. They identify him as a "high-ranking" member of the Muslim Brotherhood who has been banned by the State Department from entering the United States and who has issued fatwas (religious rulings) legitimizing the use of suicide bombings by Hamas and attacks on U.S. military forces in Iraq. "Those killed fighting the American forces are martyrs given their good intentions," Qaradawi was quoted as telling a Middle East newspaper earlier this year about the war in Iraq, according to a court affidavit released last week by a U.S. Customs agent who described Biheiri's connections with Qaradawi.

The Customs agent, David Kane, also quoted from another speech that Qaradawi once gave to a Muslim group in Toledo, Ohio, in 1995 that may be illustrative of his thinking. Qaradawi--invoking early Islamic teachings--told his audience that "you shall continue to fight the Jews and they will fight you, until the Muslims will kill them. And the Jew will hide behind the stone and the tree, and the stone and the tree will say: 'Oh, servant of Allah, oh Muslim, this is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him!' The resurrection will not come before this happens."

In his affidavit, Kane said that Biheiri--who has been jailed on immigration charges--maintained a listing for Qaradawi in the contacts folder of his laptop. When questioned by federal agents, Biheir acknowledged that "he knew Qaradawi well" and considered him "one of the most respected clerics in the Middle East" as well as a "high-ranking member of the Muslim Brotherhood," according to Kane's affidavit.

The affidavit also identified Qaradawi as one of the largest shareholders and a board member of Al Taqwa, the Swiss- and Bahamian-based financial network. Several Al Taqwa (Fear of God) principals, including the network's founder, Youssef Nada, and one of its directors, a Swiss-born Muslim convert named Armand Huber, have been slapped with terrorist "designations" by both the United States and United Nations."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/59845

Caliph,
From the link I gave you earlier. It summarizes the numbers:
************************

Due to the enormous length of the Arab Slave Trade, from 700 to 1911AD, it is impossible to be certain of the numbers of Africans sold in this system. Estimates place the numbers somewhere around 14 million: at least 9.6 million African women and 4.4 African men.

It has been estimated that in all, at least 14 to 20 MILLION African men, women and children died throughout this trade. (Photos and Information courtesy of The Black Holocaust for Beginners by SE Anderson, A Pictorial History of the Slave Trade, Slave Trade of Eastern Africa by Beachy, Slavery in the Arab World by Gordon Murray and Africa in History by Basil Davidson)
*********************************

Mullah Revert Victoria,

Ad hominem would be if the topic or discussion was other than your character. Since the discussion is whether you are a liar or not, showing and commenting on your character is very very appropriate.

You are a bald faced liar. You show no shame or the slightest hesitation to lie to defend the inhuman treatment that Islam doles out to non-muslims. I think it is important to post this on a regular basis to remind the readers know so your lies and posts can be read with appropriate caution.

You are doing a wonderful job showing the utter and total moral bankruptcy of those who follow Muhammad and the quran. Keep it up.

Caliph,

Read what you post about the Americas known to muslims. It could mean any of so many things. However, even if you take that all those vague and ambiguous statements are referring to the Americas, how in the name of sanity, does that lead you to conclude that there were any muslims in the Americas before 1490's?

Even you should be able to see that you have not shown any evidence at all that shows that there were muslims in the Americas, and even if one accepts the wild assertion that they knew about the Americas that they were in significant numbers that one can talk about their "genocide". So back up your assertions with some decent references. Till then that claims of yours is still rubbish.

Caliph,

You are being serious and earnest and I think you really believe in what these links are giving you. So let me take it slowly.

1. Youtube is not evidence. Just because this Mullah on the video says that 30% of the slaves were muslims, does not mean a darned thing. Where did he get his evidence? Which historians have looked at the evidence? Before a claim like that can be accepted, a lot of work confirming it has to be done. According to "Transatlantic Slave Trade", Africana: The Encyclopedia of the African and African American Experience. New York: Basic Civitas Books. ISBN 0-465-00071-1. Just over 645,000 Africans were shipped to what is now the USA between the 17th and 19 century. There is little to none evidence to suggest that a significant number of slaves were muslims as you seem to think. Instead take a look at the evidence that does exist about the black holocaust:
*********************************
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/blackholocaust.html

The Arab Slave Trade is the longest yet least discussed of the two major trades. It begins in the 7th century AD as Arabs and other Asians poured into Northern and Eastern Africa under the banner of Islam, either converting or subjugating the African societies they came upon. In the beginning there was some level of mutual respect between the Blacks and the more Caucasian-Semitic Arabs. Mihdja, a Black man, is said to be the first Muslim killed in battle while another, Bilal, is regarded as a "third of the faith."
......

These new attitudes towards Blacks by Arabs marked the beginning of African enslavement. Though not based solely on race, the Arab Slave Trade did focus heavily upon Africans whom Arabs now saw as inferior to themselves. At first these Arabs raided African villages themselves seeking humans for sale. This not being always successful, they soon enlisted the aid of fellow African Muslims or recently converted Blacks. Wrapping themselves within Islam, these converts rationalized the slavery of their non Muslim brethren as the selling of "unbelievers." At other times the Arabs would demand tribute in the form of human bodies from Africans weary of the fight against Arabic-Islamic incursions.

****************************

The slavery trade to the west lasted about 200 years historically. The slaves in the west were the children of the slaves brought to the americas. The eastern slave trade of the Africans largely led by the Arabs started in the 7th century and has not completely ended to this day. Please read the references and see the devestation that islam has caused because it allowed enslaving of the Kafirs. Please see that slavery exists even today in Niger, Darfur, etc.

Please read up on the absolute devestation and destruction wrecked upon the African continent by the Islam driven Arabs. You do know that the arabs to this day call the blacks "abd" meaning slave.

Read the link I have given and get some more references and see the slave trade that had been the integral part of the Islamic economy for centuries.

"and why post the loink to the bible study?"

Because it is enlightening to the uninformed readers here who may be unaware of the Qur'an's inconsistencies:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

Thanks for sharing : )

"you flatter me by attributing 1/3 to me, what does that prove? i take it youve been looking for lies"

Victoria flatters herself. As most readers here can see -she is an Islamic propagandist and almost every one of her posts contain mistruths. Islam is not perfect and many good Muslims know this to be true.

Victoria says-

"dr al-qaradawi has NEVER condoned violence and suicide bombing."

No recant or apology? Was your statement TRUTH or LIE? Is Qaradawi a peaceful man or does he support and encourage terrorism?

Caliph:
You said that the Copts were 20% of the Egyptian population, then you quote someone who say it is 13% but according to the Egyptian government "statistics" it is 6% as cited below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copt. Which is it?
I listed in an earlier post the humiliating practices rendered by the Bedoin invaders on the conquered people as institutionalized by the so-called Omar Pact.Yet this is only part of the pressure to Islamize them. The natives of those countries were not allowed to take part in many professions including the civil service and on top of that an inordinate tax, called the Jiziah, was levied upon them.
It is any wonder that there are any non-Muslims living under Muslim rule. Many of those policies are still in effect in the 21st Century.That is the tolerance that Muslims preach.

Kafirs:

30% of the African Slaves Were Muslim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbockmrb9yo

Kafirs:

From:

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/mamerica.html

Numerous evidence suggests that Muslims from Spain and West Africa arrived in the Americas at least five centuries before Co1umbus. It is recorded, for example that in the mid-tenth century during the rule of the Umayed Caliph Abdul-Rahman III (929-961), Muslims of African origin sailed westward from the Spanish port of Delba (Palos) into the “Ocean of darkness an fog.” They returned after a long absence with much booty from a “strange and curious land.” It is evident that people of Muslim origin are known to have accompanied Columbus and subsequent Spanish explorers to the New World. ....l. A Muslim historian and geographer Abul-Hassan Ali Ibn Al-Hussain Al-Masudi (871 - 957 CE) wrote in his book ‘Muruj Adh-dhahab wa Maadin al-Jawhar’ (The Meadows of Gold and Quarries of Jewels) that during the rule of the Muslim Caliph of Spain Abdullah Ibn Muhammad (888 - 912 CE), a Muslim navigator Khashkhash Ibn Saeed Ibn Aswad of Cordoba, Spain sailed from Delba (Palos) in 889 CE, crossed the Atlantic, reached an unknown territory (Ard Majhoola) and returned with fabulous treasures. In Al-Masudi's map of the world there is a large area in the ocean of darkness and fog (the Atlantic ocean) which he referred to as the unknown territory (the Americas).

2. A Muslim historian Abu Bakr Ibn Umar Al-Gutiyya narrated that during the reign of the Muslim Caliph of Spain, Hisham II (976 -1009 CE), another Muslim navigator Ibn Farrukh of Granada sailed from Kadesh (February 999 CE) into the Atlantic, landed in Gando (Great Canary Islands) visiting King Guanariga, and continued westward where he saw and named two islands, Capraria and Pluitana. He arrived back in Spain in May 999 CE.

3. Columbus sailed from Palos (Delba), Spain. He was bound for Gomera (Canary Islands) - Gomera is an Arabic word meaning ‘small firebrand’ - there he fell in love with Beatriz Bobadilla, daughter of the first captain General of the island (the family name Bobadilla is derived from the Arab Islamic name Abouabdilla). Nevertheless, the Bobadilla clan was not easy to ignore. Another Bobadilla (Francisco), later as the royal commissioner, put Columbus in chains and transferred him from Santo Domingo back to Spain (November 1500 CE). The Bobadilla family was related to Abbadid dynasty of Seville (1031 -1091 CE).

as you see caliph- since there is no logical rebuttal- k and his fellow bashers just descend into ad hominems.

the only reason i respond is my silence to such overt attacks is that i feel islam may be slandered, or perceived by others who come in to be deserving of such slander.

peace and salaams

if it was the following posts that proved me to be a liar, you should have posted them.

posting on the islam and violence question doesnt make me a liar- it makes me responsive.

you flatter me by attributing 1/3 to me, what does that prove?

i take it youve been looking for lies, amd came back with nothing except one fragment of one sentence?

in (according to you) over 500 posts- 1/2 of one sentence is all you found, yet no rebuttal as to HOW that is a lie?

and why post the loink to the bible study?
heres the link to the post in question-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2008/01/the_quran_describes_satans_fat/all_comments.html

i doubt anyone is interested except detractors or trolls- but theres the post you referred to-
theres no lies there

Caliph writes: "Muslims were vanished in America after 1492 and there is no holocaust Museum."

And "There were at least 20% Muslims among African Slaves in America and all were forcibly converted there under slavery."

Rubbish! Caliph you have written pure and unadulterated nonsense. Instead of trying to show your idiocy on every single point you have hallucinated up, I pick two above. Please show your references that show that there were muslim in America before 1492 and that 20% of the slaves from Africa were muslims. Let the Kafirs see standards of your scholarship.

A Kafir:

After 800 years of Muslim rule in Andalusia (Spain), Muslim vanished for which there is no holocaust Museum.

After 800 years of Muslim rule in India, Muslims are minority community including in Indian Capital Delhi.

After 600 years of Muslim rule of Eastern Europe, almost no Muslims were left there and there is no holocaust Museum.

Muslims were vanished in America after 1492 and there is no holocaust Museum.

There were always Jews and Christians in Arab World under Caliphate.

There were 2, 50,000 Jews in Morocco and 75, 000 Jews in Iran along with in most in all other Muslim Countries before so called illegal Balfour Declaration.

There were at least 20% Muslims among African Slaves in America and all were forcibly converted there under slavery.

Those are proof that Non-Muslims had better life under Caliphate than Muslims in Europe or America around 50 years ago.

A. Kafir:

Please read the following Hadith:

On the authority of Abu Huraira (may Allah/God be pleased with him), who said: the Messenger of Allah (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said:

Allah/God the Almighty has said: Whosoever shows enmity to a friend of Mine, I shall be at war with him. My servant does not draw near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have imposed upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him; and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.

. The Sunnah
Many Hadiths confirm that Muslims are forbiden from having
more than one state, and from having more than one ruler
(Amir) in the whole world. From these Hadiths I extract the
following:
The Prophet said (PBUH):"When the oath of allegiance has
been taken for two Khalifs, kill the later of them."
(Narrated in Muslim). The Prophet (PBUH) also said:"Whoso
comes to you while your affairs has been united under one
man, intending to divide your staff or dissolve your unity,
kill him." (Narrated in Muslim).

Al-Bukhari, Ibnu Maja, Al-Imam Ahmad and Imam Muslim
narrated from Abu Hazim who said: "I was with Abu Hurairah
for five years and I heard him narrate from the Prophet
(pbuh) that he said: The Prophets used to rule Ban Israel.
Whenever a prophet died another prophet succeeded him, but
there will be no prophets after me; instead there will be
Khalifs and they will number many. They asked: what then do
you order us? He said: Fulfil allegiance to them one after
the other. Give them their dues. Verily Allah will ask them
about what he entrusted them with."
These three sahih Hadiths clearly indicate that the Muslims
are forbiden from having more than one khalif, or more than one
state.
In addition to these three hadiths, other Hadith confirm
that the Muslims are obliged to have an Amir, i.e, one Amir
(ruler) no more, even if they were only three persons in
isolation or on journey.
Imam Ahmed reported on the authority of Abdullah Ibnu Amru
that the Messenger of Allah (SWA) said: "It is forbiden for
three persons to be together in a secluded place without
appointing one of them as their amir". (Sahih)
The phrase one of them implies that there should be no more
than one Amir. This carries the same weight interms of evidence.
The evidence can not be cancelled out unless there is a text
indicating so; and there is no such a text. So they should
appoint one Amir and no more.
Furthermore, if the Sharia verdict compels the appointment
of an Amir on three persons, this proves that the obligation on
the Ummah world-wide is of greater magnitude.

2. The General Consensus of the Sahaba.
In the books of Al-fasil-fil Milal by Ibnu Hazim, Tarikh of
Al-tabari, Al-A'kd Al-Farid of Al-Waqidi, Al-Sira of Ibnu
Kathir, Al-Sunan Al-Kubra of Bayhaqi and Siratu Ibn Hisham,
that Al-Habbab Ibnu Al-Munthir said when the Sahaba met in
the wake of the death of the Prophet (SWA) at the saqifa
(hall) of Bani sa'ida: One Amir from us and one Amir from
you (meaning one from the Ansar and one from the
Mohajireen). Upon this Abu Bakr replied: "It is forbidden
for Muslims to have two Amirs (rulers)..." Then he got up
and addressed the Muslims. And it has been reported in the
Sirah of Ibnu Ishaq that Abu Bakr said on the day of
Saqifa: "It is forbidden for Muslims to have two Amirs for
this would cause differences in their affairs and concepts,
their unity would be divided and disputes would break out
amongst them. The Sunnah would then be abandoned, the
bida'a (innovations) would spread and Fitna would grow, and
that is in no one's interest."

Therefore Abu Bakr delivered the Sharia verdict on the
unity of the Khilafah, stressing that it is forbidden for
the Muslim Ummah to have more than one Amir. The Sahabah
heard him and approved and consented, no one disputed the
verdict, but submitted to it and accepted it as a law
(indication of evidence from the Sunnah). The Ansar then
conceded their claim to the Khilafah, and Al-Habbab Ibnu
Al-Munthir was the first to give the pledge of allegiance
to Abu Bakr (RA). The general consensus of the Sahabah then
took effect on the day of Al-Saqifa, that is an obligation
for all Muslims to have one ruler only. This opinion has
been adopted by all the distinguished scholars and I
mention from them:

1. Imam ali (RA) in his book Nahj-ul-Balagha (part 1 page
91): "People must have an Amir...where the believer works under
his Imara (rule) and under which the unbeliever would also
benefit, until his rule ended by the end of his life (ajal), the
booty (fay'i) would be gathered, the enemy would be fought, the
routes would be made safe, the strong one will return what he
took from the weak till the tyrant would be contained, and not
bother anyone.

2. Al-Imam Al-Mawardi in his book Al-ahkam Al-Sultaniyah
page 9 says: "It is forbidden for the Ummah to have two Imams at
the same time."
3. Al-Imam Al-Nawawi in his book Mughni Al-Muhtaj, volume
4, page 132 says: "It is forbidden to give an oath to two Imams
or more, even in different parts of the world and even if they
are far apart".
4. Al-Imam Al Qalqashandi in his book Subul Al-Asha, volume
9, page 277 says: "It is forbidden to appoint two Imams at the
same time".
5. Al-Imam Ibnu Hazm in his book Al-Muhalla, volume 9, page
360 says: "It is permitted to have only one Imam in the whole of
the world."
6. Al-Imam Al-sha'rani in his book Al-Mizan, volume 2, page
157 says: " It is forbidden for Muslims to have in the whole
world and at the same time two Imams whether in agreement or
discord."
7. Al-Imam Al-Qadhi Abdul-Jabbar (he is a Mu'tazela scholar)
in his book Al-Mughni fi abwab Al-Tawheed, volume 20, page 243,
says: "It is forbidden to give the oath to more than one."
8. Al-Imam Al-Joziri in his book Al-Fiqh Alal-Mathahib Al-
Arba'a (the fiqh of the four schools of thought), volume 5, page
416 says: "The Imams (scholars of the four schools of thought)-
may Allah have mercy on them- agree that the Imama is an
obligation, and that the Muslims must appoint an Imam who would
implement the deen's rites, and give the oppressed justice
against the oppressors. It is forbidden forbidden for Muslims to
have two Imams in the world whether in agreement or discord".
9. The Shia schools of thought and others expressed the same
opinion about this, whoever wishes to explore this in detail can
refer to the book of Al-Fasl Fil-Milal, volume 4, page 62, and
the book of Matalib Ulil-Amr and the book of Maqalat Al-Islamyin,
volume 2,page 134, or the Book of Al-Moghni Fi Abuab Al-Tawhid,
volume 20, pages 58-145.

So where is Caliph as per above Hadith?

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

Today, Copts form almost 13% to 15% of Egypt’s population though they are not ethnically distinct from other Egyptians as they are fully integrated into the body of the modern Egyptian nation.
In 1992, there were over nine million Copts (out of a population of some 57 million Egyptians) who pray and share communion in daily masses in thousands of Coptic Churches in Egypt. This is in addition to another 1.2 million immigrant Copts who practice their faith in hundreds of churches in the United States, Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Holland, Brazil, and many other countries in Africa and Asia. Inside Egypt Copts live in every province though in no one of these provinces are they a majority.

Source:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

Today, Copts form almost 13% to 15% of Egypt’s population though they are not ethnically distinct from other Egyptians as they are fully integrated into the body of the modern Egyptian nation.
In 1992, there were over nine million Copts (out of a population of some 57 million Egyptians) who pray and share communion in daily masses in thousands of Coptic Churches in Egypt. This is in addition to another 1.2 million immigrant Copts who practice their faith in hundreds of churches in the United States, Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Holland, Brazil, and many other countries in Africa and Asia. Inside Egypt Copts live in every province though in no one of these provinces are they a majority.

Source:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm

Ibrahim Mahfouz:

From:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm

Today, Copts form almost 13% to 15% of Egypt’s population though they are not ethnically distinct from other Egyptians as they are fully integrated into the body of the modern Egyptian nation.
In 1992, there were over nine million Copts (out of a population of some 57 million Egyptians) who pray and share communion in daily masses in thousands of Coptic Churches in Egypt. This is in addition to another 1.2 million immigrant Copts who practice their faith in hundreds of churches in the United States, Canada, Australia, Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Holland, Brazil, and many other countries in Africa and Asia. Inside Egypt Copts live in every province though in no one of these provinces are they a majority.

Mullah Revert Victoria,

I am glad you posted that link. People who care will be able to see for themselves, whether you are a pathetic liar or just a plain moron or a combination of the two or not.

"he actually accuses me of being a liar"

Victoria- you are a liar.

I was reading through the "DO YOU THINK ISLAM IS A VIOLENT RELIGION?" which may be found via "All Past Questions" then "April 2007". I only took a look because of your constant complaint against it. Its humorous that you complain about the length and remaining interest in this thread when a full one third of the posts on that thread are from you.

I did run into an interesting string of posts starting on November 9th at 3:49pm-

"dr al-qaradawi has NEVER condoned violence and suicide bombing."

That was your post Victoria and the following posts proved your statement to be a lie.

When you repeatedly post false statements here and never recant or apologise, you become an unwitting accomplice to those who argue against you. Like when you accused someone of cribbing and posted the link to Joseph Smith's Critique of the Flaws in the Qur'an-

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

Care to comment?

caliph- k has many issues with islam and muslims-
no amount of reasonable discourse will appeal to him

his modus operandi is always the same.

heres a link to another question here where he actually accuses me of being a liar when i use the link he provided and posted the info on the board!

and its wikipedia of all things.
he doesnt read what you post, he doesnt even read what he himself links!

agreeing to disagree is the best that can be hoped for-
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/muslims_in_europe/all_comments.html

as you can see, it just descends into ridiculous ad hominems

peace

Caliph:
You say there are 20% Christians in Egypt today as a proof that Islam is tolerant of other beliefs.First the Christians in Egypt are less than 7% according to the most generous estimates, when before the Bedoin hordes invaded it they were 100% Christian. What happened to them? They were oppessed and subjugated and in effect forced to convert to Islam. Below is the policies of the invaders toward the indegenous populations.

Pact of Omnar

The Pact of Omar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Omar to the Christians of Syria, a "pact" which formed the pattern of later interaction.

"In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Omar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:
1. We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
2. We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
3. We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.
4. We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.
5. We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
6. We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
7.We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.
8.We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.
9. We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
10.We shall not sell fermented drinks.
11. We shall clip the fronts of our heads.
12. We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists
13. We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. 14.We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
15.We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
16.We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.
(When I brought the letter to Omar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")
We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.
If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.
Omar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."
from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230.
[This was a from handout at an Islamic History Class at the University of Edinburgh in 1979. Source of translation not given.]

Eboo has add a footnote:
"and my point is that she characterized Islam in the same, offensive manner in which Gandhi characterized Judaism."

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

You insist on sinking in the intellectual manure of your own creating. Please show a single mention of Judaism by Arun Gandhi. What Gandhi says is:

"We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity." and then he proceeds on to say in his silly apology "I do not believe and should not have implied that the policies of the Israeli government are reflective of the views of all Jewish people."

Arun Gandhi blames the jews. Arun Gandhi suggests that it is the fault of the jews and has nothing to say about Judaism at all.

So please show even a glancing mention of Judaism by Arun Gandhi in his articles.

Hirsi Ali on the other hand clearly holds out the hope that it is Islam that is the problem and there are two categories of muslims who are trying to reform it.

You take the classical position that Islam is ideal and perfect and if anything does wrong then it is because they are not following the Quran and the Sunnah of Muhammad properly. The muslims who do wrong it is because they do not know Islam.

The problem with that, Eboo, is that Islamic history blies that line of thinking. Ahmedinejad quotes the Quran, Usama bin Laden qoutes the quran, Zawahiri quotes the Quran, and those who beheaded Daniel Pearl and others also quote the quran. There are tafsirs and explanations of Islam available online that show that your take is a minor view of a small minority. Are you an Agha Khani? Is that a few million out of 1.7 billion? Can you really even claim to speak for the traditional Islam? And then your view is not even consistent ... you never clarify it, you never awnser any questions.

It should even be obvious to you, that there is something in the Quran and the Sunnah of Muhammad that allows it to be quoted by people like Usama bin Laden, by Zawahiri, by Umar Sheikh, by Mawdudi, by Qutb, by Ghauri, by Abdali, by Timur, etc., all claiming that they will do "Qatl" of the kafir, and that this attitude is not acceptable to the Kafirs in this global village.

Caliph:

When you cannot answer directly, the standard fare and logic that Anonymous already pointed to is to play the victim and attack. You posted showing that muslims should treat non-muslims as brothers, and I pointed out to you that it is from muslims in Kafir lands, and so show us what the treatment and the laws are for Kafirs in muslim lands. You challenged the Imam Muslim hadiath by quoting a Tunsian Imam, and I challenged you by showing that it was Imam Muslim himself who classified the hadath under Muslim-Brotherhood. If the ahdeeth are that difficult to use then tell the Muslims not to pull them at randomly as Eboo had done. He pulls it and starts talking about "jewish brotherhood"!!

Coming to questions you raise. Try to get it through to your head that I am not saying and have never said that Kafirs are saints and have never done anything wrong in history. I could argue with you about each one of those to try to attempt to put them in historical context, but that is not the point. Humans around the world have been violent and "barbarians" at one time or another. Europeans killed each other with abandon for hundreds of years, and the history books are filled with that.

The issue is the present, and today. You write that I am spreading lies. What lies? Show me the lies!! Teach me. If I see any lies then I will change, and say so. I have no problem with that.
The point is that we have to live in a small world. We have to live in a world that has instant communication and is destined to become even smaller. We have to learn to live together. But we cannot do it based on lies and deception. We cannot pretend Islam is one thing when we talk to the Kafirs and another when we talk among the muslims. We cannot write one thing in English and another thing in Arabic for the same message. But most importantly, muslims have to start telling the truth to themselves. You cannot lie your way out of this.

Look at the news about the death sentence for simply downloading a paper off the internet!!! Why are not intelligent, educated, and enlightened muslims around the world in an uproar? Why is it that most muslims still think it is justified that if anyone even downloads a paper calling Muhammad a barbarian should be put to death?

I just saw you on Good Morning America. I'd like to suscribe my newsletter LBweekly.com to yours

Keep up the great work!

Looking Forward,

KaRi
TPSradio.og ThePrimeSpot.TV ThePrimeSpot.com
Award Winner of "Celebrate Our Differences" USPS Long Beach, CA ("The LBC is the most diverse
city in the nation)

PS I'd like to see a video of you asking OBLaden your question to him posted on YouTube!

I just saw you on Good Morning America. I'd like to suscribe my newsletter LBweekly.com to yours

Keep up the great work!

Looking Forward,

KaRi
TPSradio.og ThePrimeSpot.TV ThePrimeSpot.com
Award Winner of "Celebrate Our Differences" USPS Long Beach, CA ("The LBC is the most diverse
city in the nation)

PS I'd like to see a video of you asking OBLaden your question to him posted on YouTube!

I just saw you on Good Morning America. I'd like to suscribe my newsletter LBweekly.com to yours

Keep up the great work!

Looking Forward,

KaRi
TPSradio.og ThePrimeSpot.TV ThePrimeSpot.com
Award Winner of "Celebrate Our Differences" USPS Long Beach, CA ("The LBC is the most diverse
city in the nation)

PS I'd like to see a video of you asking OBLaden your question to him posted on YouTube!

I just saw you on Good Morning America. I'd like to suscribe my newsletter LBweekly.com to yours

Keep up the great work!

Looking Forward,

KaRi
TPSradio.og ThePrimeSpot.TV ThePrimeSpot.com
Award Winner of "Celebrate Our Differences" USPS Long Beach, CA ("The LBC is the most diverse
city in the nation)

PS I'd like to see a video of you asking OBLaden your question to him poste on YouTube!

I just saw you on Good Morning America. I'd like to suscribe my newsletter LBweekly.com to yours

Keep up the great work!

Looking Forward,

KaRi
TPSradio.og ThePrimeSpot.TV ThePrimeSpot.com
Award Winner of "Celebrate Our Differences" USPS Long Beach, CA ("The LBC is the most diverse
city in the nation)

PS I'd like to see a video of you asking OBLaden your question to him poste on YouTube!

I just saw you on Good Morning America. I'd like to suscribe my newsletter LBweekly.com to yours

Keep up the great work!

Looking Forward,

KaRi
TPSradio.og ThePrimeSpot.TV ThePrimeSpot.com
Award Winner of "Celebrate Our Differences" USPS Long Beach, CA ("The LBC is the most diverse
city in the nation)

PS I'd like to see a video of you asking OBLaden your question to him poste on YouTube!

I just saw you on Good Morning America and googled your name.. I've been running ThePrimeSpot.com for since'99 and have steered clear of (sex politics) and religion.

The focus of ThePrimeSpot.com is to bring together the passionate people of Long Beach regardless of their opposing opinions. "The LBC" in Southern CaLifornia is the most diverse city in the nation.

I'm writing to thank you for your work and to subscribe LBweekly.com to your press releases!

Looking Forward,

KaRi

Award Winner of USPS "Celebrate our Differences" slogan ;)

Caliph asks:

"Where is Holocaust for Millions Muslims"

The greatest death threat to any Muslim today is other Muslims- Janjaweed/Africans, Sunni/Shiite, Hamas/Fatah and on and on. Honour killings where Muslim family members kill other family members.

And Muslims killing other Muslims is not new. Since Mohammed's time, his followers have fought each other savagely for bloody control.

Why are no Muslim leaders speaking out against this tragedy?

A. Kafir:

I need answer on the followings:

Where is Holocaust for Millions Muslims of Andalusia (Spain) vanished after 1492 or original people of North America, South America, Australia, Palestine, Afghanistan and lately in Iraq? Why there is no trial on the model of Nuremberg?

20% of Egyptians are Coptic Christians after 1400 Islamic rule and same is true of India, Eastern Europe, Spain and many land ruled by Muslims.

Why Iran is being harassed every day though WMD is in Moscow, London, and Paris and with Illegal European Immigrants in Palestine and America?

Why million were killed in Iraq and Iraq was completely destroyed with the false claim of WMD in Iraq? More in:

http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581128770

All Kafir:

All your posts spread same false message against Islam and it is simply propaganda and lies as it is not easy to master on Hadith and when those Hadith can be applied and under what circumstances.

Where is Holocaust for Millions Muslims of Andalusia (Spain) vanished after 1492 or original people of North America, South America, Australia, Palestine, Afghanistan and lately in Iraq? Why there is no trial on the model of Nuremberg?

20% of Egyptians are Coptic Christians after 1400 Islamic rule and same is true of India, Eastern Europe, Spain and many land ruled by Muslims.

Why Iran is being harassed every day though WMD is in Moscow, London, and Paris and with Illegal European Immigrants in Palestine and America?

Why million were killed in Iraq and Iraq was completely destroyed with the false claim of WMD in Iraq?

Rest is in:

http://home.att.net/~kgmowla

http://www-relg-studies.scu.edu/facstaff/murphy/courses/sctr132/prep-17.htm

Thanks,

A Kafir, you are right. The Muslims seem to emphasize the exemplary behaviour of Muslims in non-Muslim countries which are true democracies, where Muslims have all the freedom of non-Muslims.

Mention non-Muslims and their rights in Muslim countries and the Muslims are up in arms calling names.

Think of the following tactics employed by Muslims:

Denial - Muslims never do any wrong

Projection - what the Muslims do is pasted on somebody else

Scapegoating - somebody else is always to blame

Self-righteousness - Muslims can do no wrong

Entitlement - Muslims are entitled to the best treatment in all countries, but mention the right of non-Muslims in Muslim countries...

Eboo,

"Afghan Student Sentenced to Death for Downloading Paper Against Islam"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,324666,00.html

When was the last time that any non-muslim group sentenced a young man to death for simply downloading a "blasphemous" paper off the web?
Does that tell you anything? Do you think we are going to see the Muslim leaders around the world condemn this barbarity and tell the judges that they do not know their Islam? Are you going to write to say that it does not matter how blasphemous the writing was, that death is not an appropriate punishment?

I will bet you, that we are not going to see irate muslim protesting this at all. The article says that the paper was written by an Iranian!! I will bet it was by Ali Sina. You think Hirsi Ali is bad. How long do you think the muslims are going to keep the questions and voices of the ex-muslims like Ali Sina bottled up? Internet will help to show the true face of Islam.

thank you caliph- that was a blessing-

peace

"Imam Shabrakhiti ibn Rajul al-Hambali and others mentioned that "brother" here not only means your brother Muslim because this is a close brotherhood of Islam that others are not in, but it refers to the greater and broader brotherhood of our Adamic nature."

How silly can you possibly get. The Imam, Imam Muslim, who collected the hadith, who decided that it was Sahih, he decides to put it under Brother-in-Islam and then you qoute nonsense from the Zaytuna Institute (hypocrites if ever there were) who quote him without providing any reference to why he said it, where he said or anything.

And you don't even know who Imam was, do you? So provide some references that they can be verified.

Caliph,

See what you have posted. The title of the article you are posting is "Muslim in Non-Muslim Lands". Would you like to produce what are the laws for Non-Muslims in Muslim Lands?

Start with the Pact of Umar, and then go down and find what the Sharia of the four madhabs and the two shia schools have to say about the right of non-muslims in muslim lands, and after that look at the laws in the various muslim countries. Go over that and then look at how absurd your cut and paste looks.

Of course the Kafir laws afford you equality and you can write the nonsense you have written. Talk about the Islamic laws in muslim countries and then let the kafir see how great a treatment they get.

I'm a decent person who wasn't offended by Arun Gandhi's quote. In fact, he was saying the truth....that jews can't use violence to subdue the palestinians, because in that process they'll destroy themselves. You have to remember that AG was born in South Africa and saw aparthied up close and personal, and he sees the same in current Israel. he said the truth even though he knew the zionazi lynching crew would come after him as they came after Jimmy Carter and Prof Finklestein. Hirsi Ali, on the other hand, is a convicted fraud and liar yet the jews and the washington post is all too eager to give her a platform because we know who pulls the strings here. Hirsi Ali has no values but she knows who pays for her meals.

Mr. Patel's article is directly on point. Where's the equal treatment? Why hasn't that thread on islam and violence, which basically invites people to make anti-islam statements and gives them a forum to do so, and by its mere title further cements the link between islam and violence in the public mind, been taken down?
where's the apology for the ali article and the professional retribution against Ali, as Gandhi was forced to resign his post?
Apparently some religions are more equal than others on this board.

From:

http://www.sunnah.org/articles/muslims_in_nonmuslim_lands.htm

Also, it is necessary for us to show respect to these people. Islam prohibits us from showing aggression towards people who do not show aggression towards us. The Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said, "Do not enter the houses of the Christians nor eat anything of their fruits except with their permission." Islam prohibits theft; it prohibits fraud; it prohibits cheating; and it prohibits these things in relation to the Muslims and in relation to the non-Muslims. The things that you cannot do to a Muslim, you also cannot do to a non-Muslim. The Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, also said, "None of you truly believes until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself." Imam Shabrakhiti ibn Rajul al-Hambali and others mentioned that "brother" here not only means your brother Muslim because this is a close brotherhood of Islam that others are not in, but it refers to the greater and broader brotherhood of our Adamic nature. It is a brotherhood in the sense that we are all from Adam, that Adam is the father of all us. Understanding this should cause us to realize that we have distant relations with all of these people out there, and all of them are potential Muslims. We should see them as potential Muslims.

Allah, subhaana wa ta'aala, for that reason says, "Call to your Lord with wisdom and with a beautiful admonition, and dispute them in the most excellent of ways." In other words, debate with them and dialogue with them in the most beautiful of ways. Don't be argumentative; don't be cruel; don't be mean; don't humiliate them. Do it ways in which they can listen to the truth, respect the truth, and come to the truth. For this reason, we have to be du'ahtis salaam: people who are callers to peace.

We also have to be good citizens because an excellent Muslim is also an excellent citizen in the society that he lives in. This does not mean that we lose our distinction, that we become completely immersed in the dominant society to where we no longer have our own identity-that is not what I'm calling to. We have to maintain those things that are particular to us as a community, but we also have to recognize that there are other things that are not particular to us but rather general to the human condition that we can partake in; and these things are not things that we should be ignorant and neglectful of but things that we should be engaged in. We have to maintain our roots. We have deep roots in our faith, but at the same time we have to be open to allow others to come into that deep-rootedness.

In addition, we have to recognize that the creation itself is a creation of diversity. It is a creation in which you see variation of colors. Allah did not make all the trees one, and He did not make all the animals one. He diversified the creation. He diversified even our colors and our languages; and He did all this for a wisdom. Not only that, Allah subhaana wa ta'aala made us on different religions and different paths, and He did that intentionally because He said in the Quran, "They continue to be in differences except those whom your Lord has shown His mercy to, and for that reason He created them." So, Allah subhaana wa ta'aala is saying that He actually created us in order that we differ-that there is a wisdom, a divine wisdom in the differences that we have. He created us to show mercy to us as well. So, we have to rise up to this challenge. This is a high challenge, and we as Muslims have to rise up to this challenge.

Moderation: avoiding the Extremes
Another thing that is very important for us to remember is the moderation of Islam. This is a deen of wasatiyyah: it is a deen of moderation. We are a moderate community. We are between the two extremes of excess and deficiency. We are in the middle. The Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said, "Those people who go into matters too deeply will be destroyed." [The shaykh is an expert in the Arabic language, and he said, "those people" are people involved in "tatarruf" or extremism. That is what "tanata`u'" is.] The Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, said, "The extremists are destroyed," and he said, "Beware of extremism in the deen." The Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, warned against extremism, and he did not like it. Notice that one of the things that extremism does is that it causes you to lose your rational component so that you are not able to weigh things rationally. Once you have gone to an extreme, you can no longer see things in any balanced way. You have lost that balance of the middle way. This makes you think that what you are doing is right even though it is clearly wrong to others.

[[In essence, Eboo quotes Hillel back to them-

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah; all the rest of it is commentary; go and learn."]]

If only Muhammad had understood that. Instead Islam insisting that Quran is the literal word of Allah, has codified that such sentiments apply only to those who believe in Muhammad and not to others. The non-muslims are totally and completely excluded from any notion of the golden rule under Islam. That is the crux of the problem that the world faces and muslims cannot lie their way out of it.

I pointed that out to Eboo when he wrote about Hajj. Non-muslims are not allowed in the two cities of Mecca and Medinah, cities housing millions, because the non-muslims are filthy and dirty according to the quran. How can those who are Najis be considered as neighbors let alone brothers. Eboo chooses to keep his ears closed.

"Eboo writes: I quote the Prophet Muhammad back to them, “None of you truly believes until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself.”

In essence, Eboo quotes Hillel back to them-

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah; all the rest of it is commentary; go and learn."

hello k-
well, finding my posts and sharing them seems to keep you busy anyway-

have fun

Eboo writes: I quote the Prophet Muhammad back to them, “None of you truly believes until he wants for his brother what he wants for himself.”

And then Eboo proceeds to apply that "brother" to jews as in jewish brothers.

Eboo, why lie? Muhammad never ever considered the jews as brothers.

The hadiath that Eboo quotes is from Sahih Muslim:

**********
Chapter 18: CONCERNING THE FACT THAT IT IS ONE OF THE CHARACTERISTICS OF IMAN THAT ONE SHOULD LIKE THE SAME THING FOR ONE'S BROTHER-IN-ISLAM AS ONE LIKES FOR ONE'S SELF

Book 001, Number 0072:

It is arrested on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: one amongst you believes (truly) till one likes for his brother or for his neighbour that which he loves for himself.

Book 001, Number 0073:

It is narrated on the authority of Anas that the Prophet (may peace blessings be upon him) observed: By Him in whose Hand is my life, no, bondsman (truly) believes till he likes for his neighbour, or he (the Holy Prophet) said: for his brother, whatever he likes for himself.

***************
Notice the heading of the section for these Hadith given by Sahih Muslim is "Brother-in-Islam". In islam "brother" always, always refers to another muslim and never ever to humanity at large or to any non-muslims.

So the quote that Eboo attempts to use to fool the kafirs is direct only towards other muslims.

Eboo, how many hadiths do you want me to list here showing Muhammad cursing the jews, telling how the jews were being tormented in the graves, showing the hatred towards the jews? Even the famous hadith you probably were told as a child where Muhammad tells to stand in respect for the funeral of a jew has a companion hadith where Muhammad sits down and tells the muslims to sit and behave differently than the grieving jews who were standing. Go ahead I challenge you to show that an unambiguous hadith where Muhammad treated the jews or the christians or the pagans as "brothers". Do you really think your childish attempts at lies will not be shown to lies and will go unchallenged. The ignorant kaffirs may buy your lies, but ex-muslims did not reject islam easily. I know the lies you tell yourself and others.

Eboo writes: "If essentializing Jews as violent and oppressive is wrong, then baldly stating the same about Muslims is wrong too."

Eboo, judaism and jews are not one and the same. Islam and muslims are not identical. Grasp that simple fact first. I assure you that you can spend a life time arguing judaism with jews without the jews wanting to kill you for saying that Moesha was fictional and the rabbis had it wrong. Try that with a muslim and the result is going to be very very different.

The central problem is that muslim have painted themselves in a corner. Quran is the literal word of Allah. Muhammad is the last prophet and a "perfect" human. You cannot criticize or question either in any serious manner and still remain a muslim. Fortunately for the world, most muslims are ordinary humans and not much under the influence of Islam. It is when the muslims start taking Islam seriously that they are prone to what Robert Spencer terms the "sudden jihad syndrome", and unfortunately he is right.

Why don't you come out in daylight and answer my questions on Islam? They are not going to go away. Do you support Allah's injunction of cutting of hands for theives? Do you support Allah's injunction for stoning of women to death for adultry? Do you support crucifixion or cutting of limbs for fighting against Allah and Muhammad?

Victoria,

You are a liar, and you clearly support death by torture for humans. Your sense of right and wrong are clearly obviously utterly compromised. No wonder you cannot see the obvious problems with Arun's ignorance. He used the dhimmi mentality he labors under as an indian, and could not understand that a free people would find his words offensive.

[[ For those interested please see her posts under
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/muslims_in_europe/all_comments.html

and

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/murder_on_the_subcontinent/all_comments.html
see my post of Jan. 16 2:43 pm and discussion around it.
]]

how is calling for muslims to educate others and defending free speech even when it disgrees with, or is openly hostile to ones philosophy, possibly, in any universe, construed as stifling free speech?

Victoria: I repost for your consideration and comments-

"Victoria MUST resort to CAPS and slurs because she cannot address the real issue. Muslim violence against other Muslims.

Victoria what you call "muslim-bashing" is concern for victims of FGM, oppression of Muslim women, honour killings, and Muslim against Muslim violence. It is support of Muslims who often have no voice. You are dedicated to Islamic propaganda that pretends there is no problem with Islam. You are the one doing the bashing and trying to stifle free speech.

I commend the Muslims, ex-Muslims and others here who have found their voices and are speaking against Islamic atrocities."

For those who missed this exchange- go to the end of the thread and read starting with Victoria's

"YOU REALLY TRULY ARE A MORON- wait youre a moronic idiot" post on 1.9- 8:30am.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2008/01/hijabs_and_high_heels/allcomments.html

Eboo,
What a slimy way to try to knock a strawman down. Let us see it clearly.
Eboo says: "He was effectively saying that Judaism had violence and oppression at its heart."

Eboo, Arun Gandhi was not saying that all. You said it so you can confuse the two issues of what Hirsi Ali said and what Arun Gandhi said. Arun Gandhi did not criticise Judaism but attacked jews. He did not say the fundamentals of judaism are at fault. Read his words. He did not address the religion at all. He said the people, the jews, were choosing to be violent.

Now compare that to what Hirsi Ali is saying that you choose to bastardise:

"It is through the first two of these five groups that progress and reform will come. As for the rest, the western world would be wise to recognize the realities of Islam, a religion laid down in writing over a millennium ago with violence and oppression at its heart."

She is praising two groups of muslims, the apostates and the people like Irshad Manji. She places her hopes in the reforming abilities of humans, of muslims themselves who are out to confront what is the 7th century ideology of hate. She calls Islam, the religion, as laid down a millennium ago with being a violent and opperessive ideology. But you are unable to see the difference, can you? You are unable to see that any religion should be and can be and must be open to criticism and questioning and evaluation, and one does not and must not condemn and incite hate against living and breathing humans. But to say that one cannot question the ideas that humans hold because they are held sacred by someone is denying the history of the world that led to separation of the church and the state.

I have asked simple questions of muslims here and they do not want to answer. In the Quran, Allah ordains crucifixion and cutting of limbs as punsihments for fighting against Allah and Muhammad (Quran 5:33) Allah tells to cut off the hands of theives (Quran 5:38) and there are Sahih hadith of Muhammad ordering death by torture of Ukl tribesmen for murdering his shepard (he had their eyes burned, cut off their limbs, bled them to death in the hot desert, and denied them water when they begged for it). I cannot get a single muslim to say that these are inhumane and cruel punishments, and have no place in the modern world. Iran and Saudi Arabia still cut off limbs of humans and still subject women to death by torture (stoning to death) according to the Islamic sharia. These are barbaric practices. By asking muslims to comment on this is not trying to create hatred for them but to confront them with what Hirsi Ali correctly states that this is "violene and oppression" at the core of this ideology.

dont forget this implicitly accusatory question which has been in the "active conversations" box since april of 2007- , 9 months now.

"Do you think Islam is a violent religion?"

with a voluminous 1525 responses.

how is that for keeping the pot boiling?

even though the question is OVERTLY islamophobic in nature, still - i havent screamed or shouted anti-muslim!
but have used it as an opportunity to educate those interested i how the supposition is a fallacy.

i also did not find mr gandhis post "ugly"

as i stated intially- i felt he was over reaching in making such a broad statement about a whole group of people- but his intentions were clearly to draw people towards a healing and not a defamation.

i liked this post on that board- it reflects my own feelings about hi remarks.

"Rachel:
"I felt it important to post a comment...when reading your comments I felt I understood what you were trying to say and the true meaning behind your words. I did not feel that your intention was to offend or disregard the importance of the horrific tragedy of the Holocaust. Rather, that you were encouraging and imploring the Jewish people to look forward and not back...to take what happened in history and learn from it and move forward toward peace and healing.
Thank you."

January 18, 2008 8:00 AM

i will not jump into that mob that is calling for the head of mr gandhi

and mr patel is right about the journalistic standards being the same for everyone-
which they obviously are not here.

To place things in context-

Arun Gandhi posted as a panelist answering the question-

"We know what "Jewish identity" has meant in the past. What will it mean in the future? How does a minority religion retain its roots and embrace change?"

His title- "Jewish Identity Can't Depend on Violence"

Ayaan Hirsi Ali posted as a guest voice. Her topic was titled-

"My View of Islam- On holy war, apostasy, and the rights of women in Islam"

Also note Hirsi Ali posted on August 2, 2007 and was following the week (July 2007) this forum devoted to Islam- MUSLIMS SPEAK OUT (So far, Islam is the only faith given a week to "speak out" on this forum.)

How about A. Kafir, Ibrahim Mahfouz, Arif who have been vilifying Islam for the last several weeks here? They appear to be admirers of Hirsi Ali, who is another Islam basher--exclusively Islam basher.