From Mississippi to Monrovia

Great site!
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I believe that religion should be local to one's neighborhood or parish and it should not be international. That church wasted money on air fare that should have been handled by local people. The rise of the mega churches makes no sense to me, but some people love these quasi-businesses.

Just not me.

I am a retired social worker; I have seen terrible and too often ignored poverty in both urban and rural America. Do we need to help our neighbers here? Yes. But the pittance we spare, whether through volunteer groups, religious donations or government aid, for the third world is so desperately necessary.

The poverty I know here is terrible and too often hidden. The poverty of Liberia, where I served as a Peace Corps Volunteer, is of another dimension. Even the poorest among us can normally trust that the water he or whe is drinking will not kill within days, or minutes for a baby. That's not true in Liberia, or in much of the Third World. A diagnosis of measles there is a death sentence for all the young children of a community. In the rural areas, almost all of Liberia, there are only a few clinics or schools; in the clinics there is often no medicine, in the schools, only a few books.

Wartime destroyed family units and social ties. Over a decade of a vicious civil war has ripped Liberia apart. Although a turnaround has started in the capital city, life has to have been unbelieveably hard for kids. These are not runaways in the sense we use here; these are kids orphaned by war, children who may not even remember safety and enough food let alone a caring home. It is quite likely that many of the preteen boys have killed as soldiers and many of the preteen girls have been raped. They are deeply in need of whatever help and caring guidance can be provided.

Are there swindlers in Liberia who would try to dupe ignorant, small town, Mississippi Christians? Yep, just like there are in the American home towns of all the cynics who write to this blog. But there are other types of people, too, everywhere in the world. Now I know the cold hard statistics on the failures of foster care, but I am still not a cynic. At least a third and perhaps a half of them will have a better life because of this experience. The rest will have the opportunity to simply survive -- they will get food, water, some access to medical care and have a place to sleep in less dangerous and I hope less demeaning ways than they would if still on the streets. (Does this mean I believe our American system is acceptable as it is? Good Lord no!)

I will never be able to forget how touched I was by the loving care Liberians showed to us -- and was a normal part of their daily social interaction with one another. An honest Liberian foster home group can do so much good.

To those of you who scorn Islam I must write the life and works of Muslims in my community reminded this American Christian woman (a Lutheran with a Masters in Religion from Concordia Serminary) could probably only be compared to loving evangelicals who have to share their joy in God and all they have with the less needy, even those who believe differently. They are also commanded by "beautiful bold love". None of them ever tried to convert us, but I was welcomed by the village imam as another who, like him, belonged to the "People of the Book". I do believe the congregation of Shady Grove Baptist Church would feel right at home with him and he with them. When there was food in that village, no one went hungry. It was just that there wasn't always food.

The cost of sending a delegation to Liberia? Not a lot, considering the price of tuition to most universities. They will be getting the kind of education that will change their lives forever as well as helping all those young people hang on to life.

I invite "Compassionate Secularist" to donate to CARE, which sends food and medicine; UNICEF, medicine; and Doctors without Borders. All three of those groups monitor their work. He might also like to donate to his local Community Chest which may also suggest where he might find a place to donate his services.

Myrle

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

And if you look deeper, you will see evidence of the continued ancient conflict of Sunnis vs Shiites even in Palestine. Someday the Palestinians will wise up to the fact they are nothing more than scapegoats in this ancient feud. A posting of the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam on every light pole and every mosque in Palestine would quickly solve the problem.

this is just for your information teresa-

it seems you are unaware of the most basic palestinian political situation

arafat was the leader of the palestinian people and he died a few years ago.

abbas stepped in temporarily (hes the 'leader of fatah- or what is called the palestinian authority now)

a democratic vote took place, just like it does in america to vote for the new leader

the HAMAS won that vote

abbas has not stepped down, even though the people voted against him

america has backed him up- and has violated the democratic process

now the palestinian people are subsisting on charity, and even THAT is being withheld from them.

so what is your point?

are you saying democracy is evil and should be oppressed by outside forces?

that is the only message i can get from your posts

Pablo,

Actually I suffered from the three B's just like you currently do i.e. I was Bred, Born and Brainwashed in orthodox Catholicism. Contemporary Christian NT exegetes have liberated me. See their conclusions based on thorough analyses of the scripture and related documents at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

What is interesting is that a lot of their conclusions are being taught as gospel in graduate theology classes at major Catholic univerisities e.g. Notre Dame and Catholic U.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

Get a new name because the one you have now is confusing and I am afraid that many think you are caliming to be a Christian. Concerned Post Christian would be much clearer. Although that would be a lie too. Scripture teaches that those who leave the faith were never really believers in the first place.

Warning Concerning Antichrists

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us(1 John 2:18-19).

uh-oh-eboo..

BAD MOON RISING?

"Hamas leaders say the Palestinian Authority's decision to close more charities has grave consequences for thousands living in the West Bank.

"This is a declaration of war on the poor and needy. This decision is directed first and foremost against Hamas," said a statement from the Hamas leadership.

The Palestinian Authority Thursday said it would dismantle all Islamic charities in the West Bank, following up its decision in August to dissolve 103 charities and nongovernmental groups for alleged administrative, financial or legal violations, The Jerusalem Post reported Friday.

The charities targeted, known as zakah committees, collect a portion of a person's wealth to be given to the poor as a way of purification from greed and selfishness.

P.A. officials allege the zakah committees have been funneling money to Hamas supporters in the West Bank. The committees are to be reorganized to prevent political factions or individuals from exploiting them, said a Palestinian Authority spokesman."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2w5kffJnq8

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

You are so brainwashed in Islam it is hard to determine where you are coming from most of the time.

is that the royal we lib or the people in your head?

(i know, not that funny but im the worst comic in the world)

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

I am sure your lost message was just like Islam, i.e. lost in its flaws. Again we have a five step program to bring you back to reality. And it is free. Just ask.

pablo, i intend to get back to you with responses. i made a long post and it magically disappeared, possibly some ineptness on my part.
thank you though for your prayers and i accept them in the loving spirit with which they are given.

peace- sorry im pressed for time

And FYI Teresa -

I am not an antichrist bigot at all - I just cant stand people like you who promote hate and ignorance.

I have nothing against any religion out there. I think when followed properly, all religions promote the same basic doctrines. I have met wonderful Christians, Muslims, etc. My friends are a mix of all sorts of religions.

I just dont like the narrow-minded type who get on here and try to pretend they passed kindergarten...namely you Teresa.

Teresa -

ACTUALLY, I am getting a kick out seeing you get SO riled up!!! You are callin me a bigot because I asked you to look at yourself before you point fingers??? Isnt that interesting?

Obviously I hit a nerve...OUCH! You sound exactly like the depressingly sloppy American woman I pegged you to be.

Of course your only defense: "you dont know what I am"...the usual.

By the Loving Lady, we get rid of Frank Collins, and get Pablo and Teresa instead. With righteous anger (and glee), you, and so many other haters, cherry-pick the Qur'an for bloodthirsty passages, and ignore the teachings in your Christian bible which have given cover for so-called Christians to hunt, hurt, and kill those defined as "sinners" in that book. In fact, your bible condemns most of humanity to burn in torment forver.

Look, good people will help others, no matter their faith, and bad people will hurt others, no matter their faith. Speaking from experience Christianity does not hold the patent on compassion and kindness. They are universal traits, and should be used much more often.

SM

I am not Christian. You are just an antichrist bigot. I guess you just can't help outing yourself.

You are such an idiot. You try to make guesses about me/my life and you actually got one right..I am female. Please please keep posting. A group of us are riding down to Biketoberfest and we're getting a big laugh out of you.

Pablo -

Christianity and Islam - two different religions. Is it a surprise that there would be some stark differences between the two??? Is it a surprise we dont believe that since Jesus died for all of our sins...we are all going to Heaven? Do what you want but as long as you acknowledge Christ - you are safe! Muslims dont buy that because it makes NO sense.

Anyway, you will be in our prayers...you seem like a nice enough guy...no reason why we cant say a prayer or two for you.

Teresa,

Again, you do the same thing you did before...you point fingers at the entire religion and fail to see your own shortcomings. When will you come out of your little narrow minded tunnel? When will you acknowledge your own errors as Christians? Going to church once a week and committing adultery, drinking, doing drugs, lying, cheating, etc. the rest of the six days is an excellent definition of Christianity. Asking a pathetic child molesting priest to pray for your forgiveness because you arent good enough to stand before your own God is an excellent definition of Christianity. Have you even so much as seen a Christian female president yet? For all of your crying and screaming that women are oppressed in Islam and blah blah blah...Muslim women are WAY more educated then the average sloppy uneducated American woman. Your public schools are a disgrace...an Asian CHILD could probably outsmart the average American adult.

Please...dont go too far...take a look in your own country. Foster care in America is rotten and if you are a product of it...you are living proof of what it does to the human mind. It promotes ignorance. You sound like the average American woman. In your 40's, divorced, single parent of two with barely enough to make ends meet, no education...and as a result overweight.

Dont point fingers at anyone else Teresa. You are just as responsible. Every terrorist out there probably has the same mindset as you. You are NO better then any of them and have not said a SINGLE thing to make anyone respect an ounce of what you say. You want to be taken seriously? Stop attacking and start talking. You want to solve the problem or make it worse?

I really hope you dont end up in politics...you would be a train wreck.

Victoria,

I am not your enemy that is why I am sharing the truth with you and why I have been praying for you for a while.

Do you have eyes to see and ears to hear? Can you not see all the violence in the Muslim world and the Qur'anic verses that inspire all the hate. It is clear that Muslims are involved in much more violence than in loving thy neighbor and when I read the Qur'an I can see why.

It seems to me that you just close your eyes to the truth of what is going on in the Muslim world. The Qur'an directly attacks the central doctrines of Christianity. For example it denies the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and denies His Sonship. Without these doctrines there is no Christianity. It commands war on Christians who believe in the Trinity (In Qur'an chapter 9 Christians are considered idolaters/infidels/pagans because they believe in the doctrine of the Trinity) and promises judgment on them. It also misrepresents what Christians believe about the Triune God by assigning Mary as one of the persons of the Trinity.

I have placed a fraction of the news headlines about martyred Christians at the hands of Muslims on this thread. In what way do they contradict Qur'an 9 and Bukhari's trusted hadith? Obviously Muslims who are murdering Christians and anybody else who disagrees with them believe they have a Qur'anic mandate and obligation to Allah to rid the world of all infidels. Why should I believe your Qur'an Hadith contradicting version of Islam? It is clear to me that the Christian hating Muslims are simply obeying Allah.

pablo- is there a winner and a loser in your game?

do you think that another religious groups charity will negate your own?

how is it that all your eyes are seeing is murder and intimidation?

i can only wish you peace and remind you of Jesus' command to love your enemies.

but you dont need to have enemies pablo
im not your enemy

Victoria,

The anti Christian Qur'anic verses qouted below match the actions of Muslim missionary efforts around the world. Sorry to be so straight forward but it is my prayer that you would see the truth and be set free from Islam. God bless you!

October 8, 2007
Widow Screams and Collapses At Martyred Husband's Funeral
As I posted in the previous entry, Rami Ayaad (pictured) was murdered yesterday. As a result of this murder, Christians in the Gaza area are now more worried than ever concerning their safety.
The reaction of his widow is what I want you to take away from this blog post, and the reason why is because it is so easy to be numb to stories like this as we see them daily.
"Ayyad's wife -- pregnant with their third child -- fell limp, screaming his name during his funeral Sunday. Meanwhile, mourners grappled with the abrupt and savage end of a man's otherwise quiet life."

Please pray for her today, and add her and her children to your prayer lists.

October 8, 2007
Christian Store Manager Martyred in Gaza City

Late yesterday the sad news broke that Rami Ayyad was murdered after he had been kidnapped. What is significant about this murder is that Rami was the manager of the only Christian bookstore located in Gaza City.

Rami was only 26 years old (other articles say he was 31, and 32) and had been threatened since April with death threats. Well, sadly, those threats came to fruition yesterday as he was stabbed and shot multiple times.

Christianity Today is also reporting that Rami has left behind two children and a pregnant wife. Please remember his family in your prayers and also pray for those Christians who are serving in the Gaza area.

For further coverage on this martyr, please see the following stories.

By Michael Ireland

Chief Correspondent, ASSIST News Service

KANO, NIGERIA (ANS) -- At least nine Christians were killed, churches set on fire and businesses and homes destroyed in the Tundun Wada area of Kano State, Nigeria, over the weekend.

The violence was committed by Muslim youths and followed unspecified allegations that Christians had blasphemed the prophet Mohammed.

Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW) reports that according to sources on the ground, not a single Christian church, house or business has been left undamaged. Furthermore, an unknown number of people were injured and displaced during the violence.

The Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN) has received reports indicating that, in an attempt to disguise the true extent of the violence and injuries, the authorities in Tundun Wada have evacuated Christians and other non-Muslims to neighboring Bauchi Sta

Victoria,

Yes you gave a link but that does not compare to the relief work done by Christians around the world including in the Muslim world. Again, these missionaries are following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.

All I see in the Muslim world is murder and intimidation. Could I preach that Jesus is the Son of God publicly in Saudi Arabia without getting arrested or murdered?

pablo!

when did i ever call you a name?

ever?

you asked where the muslims are, i provided a link.
what a shame

Verdict in Muslim Charity Terror Case Delayed until Monday

The leaders of what was once the nation's largest Islamic charity did sometimes sympathize with the anger, and even the actions, of extremists.

In one wiretapped call played at their trial here, one of the men describes a suicide bombing near Tel Aviv as a "beautiful operation." The group also invited guest speakers identified by prosecutors as leaders of the militant Palestinian group Hamas to appear at fundraisers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/18/AR2007091801114.html?hpid=sec-nation

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

5:74 Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him ? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Sm & Victoria can cry fowl all they want but they have not supported one thing they have said. They have called me a names but they have not refuted one thing I have pointed out about Islam. I have given chapter and verse from the Qur'an and from the most trusted hadith that prove that Islam is anti Christian and anti Jew throughout many threads on the On Faith debates.

It is a fact that Christians feed and cloth more people than any group of people on the face of the earth. Christians flood into other nations all the time to help in relief projects following natural disasters. This is also true of Muslim nations like following the earth quake in Iran and the tsunami in Indonesia. After the towers feel at the hands of Muslims I saw were Muslims celebrating in the streets. The media quickly pulled those video shots though to cover for the Muslim world.

SM

No one in Foster Care or the Catholic Church in America is teaching their children to lust after their own suicide and the murder of "infidels" (that would be me and my family). So until the death and blood lusts of Muslims end, I will continue to point my finger at the entire religion. And if any other organised religion begins a campaign of death, I'll be sure to point my finger at them too.

ITMT- please take your snotty nose irrational idiotalk elsewhere.

Teresa,

Could you PLEASE come out of your hidey hole and look around you??? Do you not see the amount of fraud and abuse in the foster care system in America??? Do you not see how many priests end up molesting one of thier very own flock???

I dont deny that there are probably some groups out there doing that...however...before you point fingers like that on an entire religion...why dont you fix the problems at home??????

Pablo

Thank you for posting the thoughts so many Americans share. The only thing I can think to add is the fact that so many "Islamic Charities" have turned out to be funneling monies to terrorists.

Pablo -

I have to agree with Victoria - your post started out very nicely. You actually had my attention.

But then you lost it when you became just another Islam hater taking out all of your frustration against Muslims here. I literally skimmed the rest of your post...it was so generic and typical of any narrow minded individual who has been brainwashed into thinking whatever they believe his the best.

I am sorry you feel this way but if you really want to be heard...cut the crap.

Victoria,

There was very little help from the Muslim world during the Tsunami. Christians are still there helping. You have dodged the issue.

“Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Sura 9:5)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Sura 9:29)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Sura 9:73)

pablo- your post started out nicely- filled with brotherly love.
you asked (and then answered) where are the muslims going into other countries to help.

this is not an evangelical group, not a missionary, no proselytizing-
just pure humanitarian aid to whoever needs it-

when the USA forgot about the tsunami victims - muslim doctors were there-
but you wont see it on the evening news.

and i thank br patel for sharing this story with us
http://www.islamic-relief.com/

Dear Eboo,

God put this young man next to you to demonstrate what true faith in Jesus Christ is about. Missionaries like the one you met go throughout this world following in the loving turn the other cheek foot steps of Jesus.

Where are all the Muslim missionaries who are going in love to other nations to share God's love in both word and deed? They are absent! Why? Because the god of Islam is not the God of love revealed in the life of Jesus and the pages of the Holy Bible.

Muslim missionaries strap bombs to their bodies and murder people. They seek to intimidate people into Islam. They are following in the foot steps of Muhammad who propagated Islam through violence (See Bukhari and other hadith). Unfortunately this is the history of Islam. Qur'an 9 is their missionary call and so we see what Islam is about all around the world.

The individual spiritual account,as grouping of accounts,can lead to greater as lesser,events as unto the individual as the grouping.When living within the(accepted zone)individual accounts as group,then such securities put the individual as grouping to little risk.Yet there times in the span of history when individuals,as the grouping step outside(accepted zone)as then the need for spiritual development being so great,being then one as one all willing to put aside the relative comfort of an secure base.Thus facing the risks as turmoil such an decision will bring. Such be an time,a period for LIBERIA its people.It be an brotherly as sisterly act in offering an hand..

I tend to think everyone would be willing to take the time to help people if the opportunity arose. In fact, I would love to travel thousands of miles to help Liberians in need. My girlfriend and I (both atheists) have frequently discussed our desire to go abroad, or merely help here in the United States. However, the sad truth is that I don't have the money to make this happen and these large christain churches do (20,000 bucks a service by your account!). It has more to do with finance than morality. Sadly, we have yet to have a secular group (that I know of, tell me if i'm wrong, i'd love to know of one!)who financially competes with churches in providing for individuals to travel and provide aid. Nevertheless, don't mistake this for moral superiority, faithful.

I am amazed at these negative comments on this board. Wow! Call me crazy but I was touched by this story. I am from small town USA myself but now I live in a major city and I am so moved when I hear stories of people extending themselves beyond their own backyard. I grew up in a "red" state where ignorance and hate ran rampant and I love examples showing that not only are southerners people with big hearts, but they realize the big picture that we are all on this planet together and need to care. I also want to address what one person said about the money that the church collects. I wonder how people think humanitarian efforts occur. The airlines don't give free tickets not do hotels give free stays. Food,water, blankets and medicine,etc. all cost money. Churches supply that money to help families in the church, in the community, and abroad. Without tithes and offerings that cannot happen and the federal and state governments have proven they won't do it. I know there are bad people who exploit those who have strong religious beliefs and good hearts. I have seen and heard of Jim Jones and Jim and Tammy Baker, but the vast majority of religious leaders are nothing like that. Just because we see an irresponsible CEO (Enron) we don't give up on capitalism, we just try to expose them and help people see the warning signs so those mistakes are not repeated. Hence, an unethical religious leader should not make people swear off their faith and make everyone think that all people choose to do the wrong thing with the money of their followers. That is ludacris! Again, call me crazy, but I think we should celebrate the good work of faith based organizations when they get something right, rather than tear it down with examples of those who got it wrong.

Until Mr. Patel offers a public apology to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, his words on this blog will ring shallow and hollow. He seems insincere and arrogant. We will see his devotion to interfaith communication-if he is humble enough to admit his error.

Some ideas to address in your daily commentary:

The Dalai Lama says 'All major religious traditions carry basically the same message: That is love, compassion and forgiveness.' Do you agree?

Yes!!!

But as noted previously these traditions must be cleansed of their flaws in order for the message to ring true. Again a synopsis of said flaws:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating, womanizing Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror? The Islamic terror theocracy of Iran, the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an on-line Hindu site)

"Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’".

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but first cleanse these traditions of their flaws especially the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

"There are still people – many people, perhaps the majority of people – who are moved primarily by the beautiful, beyond rational, bold love of their religion to reach across traditional borders of race, faith and nation to help others."

I agree, but likewise I would say that a sound secular moral code would accomplish the same. As a non-religious (but spiritual) person, I tend to feel talked down to by religionists who claim to have higher moral standards than I by virtue of their faiths.

Ultimately persons have to decide for themselves which path is the right one for them and organized religion of any sort does not work for everyone. That does not make us any less loving and compassionate.

There are many secularists as well who make a it a point to help others because it's the right thing to do, not because they are motivated by "the beautiful, beyond rational, bold love of their religion".

And what, might you ask, does this have to do with the validity of religious claims?

A: NOTHING...

If anything the story of Jeffrey simply illustrates that religion flourishes among the ignorant and provincial.

I'm NOT so turned on by the local faith going global. On the train from Beijing to Guangzhou, about ten years ago, I met a Christian missionary from America (Minnisota I think), on the hard sleeper next to mine. I can't remember his church affiliation, but I do clearly remember his mission: to drive the devil out of the heathen peasantry living in the countryside. The Chinese people were basically in an animal state, worshipers of Satan. He was going to fix that.

I'd only read about or seen such zealots on TV, so it was a novel experience to encounter such a creature in the wild. Alas, the novelty soon wore off. My grateful relief when our train finally arrived in Guangzhou some 36 hours later was tempered somewhat by the reminder that this creeping bigot, and millions of other creatures just like him, would always be out there, devout and dedicated in their faith to exterminate the cultures of local people everywhere and replacing with....

I'd like to know where that missionary is today. I hope he's back in America, getting the care and treatment he very much needs.

What? Mississippi and not Alabama? Close. Are things any different in Alabama?

Hey,hey, hey! Not bad. $20,000 a week? Not bad at all. I'll bet there are a few croppers in Alabama that would think they died and went to heaven for just one week's take.

How much of that, what percentage goes to charity?

At least you give us a feel for the price of a ticket to hell, a twenty dollar bill,, per week. 1,000 come and 20,000 dollars in the collection. Easy arithmetic.

You still got the problem, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul We know the big money goes to those who lead the multitudes, (of non suspecting) to hell.

Thanks for letting us know how big the money is in Alabama. I think they're doing a lot better in California but then I could be wrong what with no accounting required. Now please favor us with how much of Devil's reward to his representatives that trickles down to the down and out,, like Moses after he killed that Egyptian overseer?

His, Moses' deal is awfully hard if not impossible to top - the biggest shot that ever lived holding the highest office possible, leader of the chosen people of Devil. Oops, meant to say the chosen people of God.

Of course Moses is the "spiritual" founder of all faiths in the supernatural being that lives in the fire that burns but does not consume. Is God really on fire with hell fire type fire or does the Bible just say that in some "needs to be interpreted" parabolic way, like "Revelation" for easy example?

I'm turned on by local faith going global. Paradigms will broaden by these acts of faith (scuse' the reference) and so will the bridges to understanding the 'other'. Like a Sufi whose never left Lebanon coming to help rebuild in post-Katrina New Orleans. I think we need the locally faithful to broaden their horizons to a more global engagement.

a salaamu alikum brother patel-

this is a bit off tpic and i apologize in advance- but i just wanted to get it down-

im watching paul simon on the news discussing going to congress to fight for the SCHIP program (the program of health care for children)

yesterday i saw on the news that the first baby boomer is taking early retirement-
there are alot to follow, and in 3 years there will be a rush of retired baby boomers-

and i thought, what are all those boomers going to do with their spare time?

earlier i saw david crosby and graham nash who have organized a prayer and music service to protest the war in iraq-

it was energizing

i know its off topic- but its grass roots related i guess- just a thought
hope i dont derail your post