My Three Catholic Wishes

what i wish for is to be a good ice skater!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Errata:

5. A Propos of Lady Chatterley's Lover,
(essay) by D H Lawrence

Dear Professor Freitas

For a more in-depth view of sexuality, I wish to share with you a reading list I posted elsewhere on the On Faith forum over a year ago:

1. Jonathan Livingston Seagull
by Richard Bach

2. Siddharta by Hermann Hesse

3. The Book of Proverbs (The Old Testament)

4. Sexuality (essay) by C S Lewis

5. An apropos to Lady Chatterley's Lover,
(essay) by D H Lawrence

6. The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm

7. The Road Less Travelled by Scott M Peck

8. The Ramayana (Hindu Epic)

9. Books by Patrick Carnes: Don't Call it
Love, Out of the Shadows, Betrayal Bond...

10. Women who love too much by Robin Norwood

11. The Casanova Complex by Peter Trachtenberg

12. Mount Misery by Samuel Shem (a hilarious
take on Freudian psychoanalysis)

Do encourage your students to read and share their views. Who knows what new insights might emerge that is appropriate to the times in which they live and the challenges they face?

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

I am no fan of the Catholic church to put it mildly but Calling Ratzinger a Nazi based on his membership in the Hitler Youth is really really retarded. Every German Youth who wasn't a Jew A gypsy or a homosexual was a member of the Hitler Youth regardless of his or his parents wishes. It should be noted that the same sort of thing was done in the Soviet Union, Maoist China, and other Socialist states as well.

Perhaps of interest to those seeking to defend the Vatican during the Hitler regime. The pathetic part of all this is that some of this material, though not most, had been available, until quite recently on the Vatican web site. It continues to refuse to release documents regarding its guilt.

Note to Protestants: Your churches do not come off particularly well in what follows.
.................................................
German churches used slave labour
Both German state churches are now known to have used slave labour during World War II, but only the Catholic Church refused to join the national compensation fund. Documents imply that the churches' slave labourers were sent to death camps when they were no longer useful (Part I) and that they also knew about the death camps for the babies of the East European workers, yet said nothing (Part II).

Part I: The German Catholic Church “investigates” its own use of slave labour

For 55 years the Catholic and Protestant (EKD) churches in Germany “forgot” that they'd used slave labourers during World War II. However, in August 2000, after some survivors living in the US began suing German companies, a foundation was set up to grant payments to claimants if they’d renounce their right to any further legal action. The foundation was financed by equal contributions from the German Government and a group of German firms, for a total of 10 billion Deutschmarks. [1] That autumn the Protestant Church (EKD) joined with a contribution of 10 million Marks. [2]

But not the Catholic Church. The head of the Bishops Conference, Karl Lehmann, (who was made a cardinal the next year), said that all this had nothing to do with his church because it had never used forced labour.

It was not going to contribute to the fund of the German companies. The Foundation had not the slightest relevance to the situation of the foreign workers in Catholic institutions according to Bishop Lehmann. In the proposal for the Foundation it was stated that "Slave labour and forced labour meant not only the denial of fair wages. They meant abduction, denial of rights, the brutal disregard of human dignity". Research in the Catholic area had shown, however, that forced labourers there were "in most cases paid according to the official wage scale" [i.e. the paper regulations of the Nazis], they received bed and board [which was deducted from their paper "wages", despite the fact that His Excellency implies otherwise] and they were even given pastoral care. "Cases of exploitation or forced performance of heavy labour or brutally hard work have so far not been proven." [3]

Actually, they most certainly had, as is made clear below, but this allowed the Bishop to keep it an internal matter. The Church would take care of everything quietly through its own social agencies in Eastern Europe: faith-based compensation for Church slave labourers.

Prominent German Catholics criticised the decision of their church not to join German industry and the Protestant (EKD) Church in the common compensation fund.

Otto Graf Lambsdorff [FDP] said that the Catholic Church must follow the example of the Protestant Church and also contribute to the compensation funds.
The vicepresident of the [Christian] Union fraction, Wolfgang Bosbach, (CDU) said: "Whoever employed forced labour in the Nazi period must today pay into the funds with no ifs and buts”.
Lambsdorff criticised [his church]: "In contrast to the Protestants the Catholic Church has always offered the excuse that it must first do research into where it had employed forced labour. In the beginning it [even] said there hadn’t been any.” [4]

However, the Church continued to maintain that the matter required deep archival study. Finally on 8 April 2008 Bishop Lehmann announced that the Church had completed its official investigation of itself.

The 703-page report claims that records only survive for 5904 of the mostly East Europeans who were forced to work as gardeners, hospital orderlies and grave diggers in Church institutions. At the news conference Bishop Lehmann repeated his assertion that there was no proof that any of them had to do “hard labour”. [5] This raises questions about his new report, for there’s well-publicised documentary evidence to the contrary.

Broken and sent "away"

At the Jerusalem Graveyard in Berlin-Neukölln 26 Protestant and two Catholic dioceses together ran a camp in which were billetted about 100 “East[European] workers”, whose task was to bury bomb casualties. From a contemporary report on the church camp, comes this entry for 19 March 1945.

“The five East(ern European) workers listed below are, on account of their physical condition no longer suitable for the work to be done at graveyards”. They have broken bones, general weakness, congestive heart failure. “We therefore request the named persons to be assigned to an appropriate collection point, as they are just lying in the camp and taking up the places for men capable of work.” The camp director, Gustav Wenger, closes with the greeting “Heil Hitler”.

Those rejected as unfit in this way were usually sent to the death camp – [Nazi-speak for]“an appropriate collection point”. [6]

According to the Church report issued on 8 April 2008, the Catholic Church had employed at least 5904 slave labourers in 776 Catholic institutions. However, it has managed to minimise the consequences, in terms of both public opinion and financial compensation. Holding itself aloof from the common fund has allowed the Catholic Church to treat compensation of its victims as a purely internal matter, with no oversight and out of the public view. The report claims that by the end of 2004 it had paid each claimant 2556 Euros (at that time worth about $3776). However, after almost 60 years it was only able to find 587 of these aged survivors. The delay caused by the remarkable forgetfulness of the German churches has saved them much unnecessary bother and expense. at least 5904 forced labourers -- and they admit it could be more. Of course, by the time they were forced to begin assuming some responsibility for this, it was almost 60 years after the war's end and they were only able to find 587 survivors to compensate. [7]

You are absolutely correct....women and youth, especially, are being left behind in the Catholic church.

I was happy to see the multi-cultural focus of today's mass in Washington; an acknowledgment of reality.....without immigrants the church's memebership would be considerably less in this country.

Latin masses will not birng people back....it's time to truly be the Catholic church....a universal church...open hearts and minds, not dogma, can make a difference.

Women in Catholic Church have only a chance. If I were a woman, I will not be agree with it.

But The Catholic Church is today how it was, and will be as today is. You do not really need to make new wishes. They wil be always the same. And that is why Public Relations are and Press department.

To Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

My friend in Christ, the Holy Eucharist is indeed the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Please refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is quoted below:

"1413: By the consecration the tansubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640, 1651)."

For more in depth information, you can also refer to sections 1373 through 1377 of the Catechism. These two sections are beautiful teachings on the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. To deny this central teaching of the Catholic Church is to deny Christ himself.

Forward from Jake:

Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich [with Supplementary Protocol and Secret Supplement]

July 20, 1933
[Concordat

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavor to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."

Dabbling for the dabblers is worthless. The writer if a real person seems obvilious to the sin of "pride", in todays locution "presumption", yeah, yeah you have your beliefs, I have mine and mine are right, just like dear Sally.

Why not let me write a column. I'm as well trained or better trained than your writers.

Forward from Jake:

Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich [with Supplementary Protocol and Secret Supplement]

July 20, 1933
[Concordat

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavor to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."

Mari writes to Michael:

Michael:

Your ignorance comes thru immediately. Stop spreading lies. Benedict was NOT a member of the Nazi party. He was forced like all other german youth to be a member of the youth group.

It is not Michael's ignorance that comes out. No one was forced to join the Hitler Youth. Many desserted, rgardless of their politics, so Benedict was no exception.

The Vatican did not hide Jews. It hid Catholics who had converted from Judaism, some from family's that had converted several generations back. Within Rome, clerics hid former nazis and protected them. Within Europe, many Catholic priests were nazis, or supporters of the fascist equvalents of their own nations.

Many books and articles have been written on the subject, but since I doubt you would read them, I will post relevant material from time to time, including the facts of the Hitler Youth.

I begin with Article 16 of the Holy See's concordat with the Third Reich.

Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich [with Supplementary Protocol and Secret Supplement]

July 20, 1933
[Concordat

Article 16

Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavor to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."

>>As far as I - a Christian from the spiritual side - am concerned, that book of the bible is solid proof that some of those early Christians were goin' down on some really heavy drugs. The statements there that are attributed to Jesus bear absolutely NO relation to the Jesus of the Gospels

A Christian (?) - stating that some drug induced writings are canonized in scripture - and Revelation has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Gospels..that same Jesus that warned of the last days with scripture that equates with end of this age events in Revelation...all of those events, by the way, just prior to His millenial reign on earth, then the Great White Throne judgement and then the peaceful, abundant Kingdom of God fully established for eternity. Its all there...unless you skip around and ingest only what you want.

????????????????? - this person says theyre Christian?

Better open your bible and read it again, my freind.

Anon writes:

I believe in "Loving the sinner, hating the sin."

Calling an action wrong is not judging a person -- because sexuality does not encompass the entirety of that person.

PS - it is obviously true that anti-catholicism is the anti-semitism of the left...

Not every Catholic believes that homosexuality is a sin. No one should think that your antiquated views are the views of every one of us. Unless we faith our own sinfulness honestly, we will lose more and more from the church. Hating and persecuting Jews began with us and continues with us. It is not only the left that does it, and it is not only Catholics who do it.

As for gay people, they are God's people just like everyone else in Christ.

Mark Eaton wrote: "Wisdom only comes to the old. Wisdom seldom comes to the young".

T.S. Eliot would have disagreed. Writing as an old man, he wrote (in "Four Quartets"):

And the wisdom of age? Had they deceived us
Or deceived themselves, the quiet-voiced elders,
Bequeathing us merely a receipt for deceit?
The serenity only a deliberate hebetude,
The wisdom only the knowledge of dead secrets
Useless in the darkness into which they peered
Or from which they turned their eyes. There is, it seems to us,
At best, only a limited value
In the knowledge derived from experience.
The knowledge imposes a pattern, and falsifies,
For the pattern is new in every moment
And every moment is a new and shocking
Valuation of all we have been.

I haven't read all the comments here so forgive me if there is some repetition. So just 3 comments from this happy cradle Catholic:

1. I was taught that we killed Jesus. Not the Jews, but we as a society. There were no Christians -- only Jewish follower of Jesus. Jesus is Jewish, if I had lived then, I'd most likely have been Jewish. So I was never taught to blame Jews, but to realize that we as a people all killed Jesus. The dressing up as Jews is to represent the time, it was never to "dress up like a Jewish person and kill Jesus".

2. The push that the Church needs to change with the times and has to meet the changing culture of the West only depresses me. I look to the Church to uphold the highest level of moral standards and the idea that it must fall to the lowest common denominator only drags us all down. The recent sexual scandals are emabarrassing and horrible and appalling and have no defense. And I expect change to deal with that on all levels. But I do not abandon my faith and belief structure based on the worst of its representatives. Then the "bad guys" win -- instead I stand stonger against those people and support the majority of good in the Church. Do I always meet the high moral standards the Church holds, no... I'm human. But having a level to strive for and knowing that the expectations for me are high encourages me to be a better person.

3. I have wonderful friends of all faiths and lifestyles. I think all anyone wants is respect and there are ways to have open dialogue without getting mean, nasty, and bashing each other. I was taught to respect people... I don't have to like or personally want to life the way a particular person lives, but I will respect them and get to know them and care about them -- and some have become great friends. I can best show people who I am through my actions... let's all try to be our best.

Again, these are from my experience. Have a great day!

If Holy Mother ever took a realistic stance on birth control which affects every married coulple, possibly this might help to stem the flight from the Faith

ryan made some good points, and brought the conversation back on topic-

it seems alot of posters base their opinions on some hearsay- or worse yet- indoctrinated stereotypes as opposed to research and reason-

the fact is, most priests study the social sciences and many of them have psychology degrees-

for those who make the complaint that the church does not respond to the needs of its congregants, I propose that they have never gone to a priest for guidance to know one way or the other if this is true-

the pope was addressing the issues of priests and pedophilia on the plane to america-
apparently, he is facing this issue head on-
i applaud forthrightness from any person, even the pope-


in the same vein- a poster named miriam made this statement which i feel has to be corrected-

"I'm not that fond of child rape, which has gone on within the catholic church since the middle ages and continues."

again, baseless conjecture- i wont add to it by more speculation as to just where she got this idea- just state that it is false-

pedophilia in the priesthood has a pointed and specific time frame- and pinpointed reasons for its occurrence-

it is a mid-20th century phenomenon- and rose out of the embarrassment of families to deal openly with their sons who were homosexuals, or a desire to hide sexual abuses in their own families-

here are the choices- 1940-50s era)
your son is gay, or has been abused by an adult and has questionable proclivities developing- and you-

1) embrace his sexuality and suffer social ridicule and ostracization

or-

2) send him off to seminary school where he will train to become a priest and, as a parent of a priest, you get automatic admission into heaven- with the additional social status rewarded on earth too.

many parents chose the latter-
the seminaries swelled with ranks of young men to vocations- so much so- that there is a rule that 2 seminarians may not walk together- it must be groups of 3 or more.

one has to look at the source, of any issue- from a practical and accurate POV-

amd of course, take a wary view when people from a different tradition criticze or denigrate people from another tradition-

let catholics tell us what catholicism is- without fear of being verbally persecuted-
i, for one, am always interested in hearing other people's views about their own lives and faith.
that's why i'm here
peace

In one third world country where population explosion has become a major problem, Catholic chapels or centers offer free operation to untie the fallopian tubes of mothers after indoctrinating them that it's a SIN.

This devilish Church invent their own doctrines so parents would produce more chiildren despite their abject poverty.

They then teach these poor people that their government is the cause of their poverty due to corruption but lo and behold those same government personnel are usually "devout catholics".

Some revolt which cause more poverty and this has become a "CATHOLIC CYCLE" which I presume is routinely duplicated around the world.

To escape poverty, many go abroad adding more economic pressure to their host countries.

Michael:

Your ignorance comes thru immediately. Stop spreading lies. Benedict was NOT a member of the Nazi party. He was forced like all other german youth to be a member of the youth group. And then he deserted and was an American POW before the war was over.

The Vatican DID condemn the killing of the Jews, as well as encourage Catholics and churches everywhere to take in Jews to hide them. The vatican itself hid Jews. Catholic baptismal certificates were issued for Jews to save their lives.

Birth control does not protect from STD's. Condoms are only effective if used correctly and stored at a temp of 68 degrees I believe it says on the package. How realistic is that? Even if they were effective at preventing STD's, that doesn't make premarital sex or contraceptive sex right and isn't an excuse for the Church to condone birth control and thereby encourage and enable its members to commit the sins of premarital and contraceptive sex.

The churches teachings will not change because they are not the churches' - they are Jesus'. And Jesus will not change.

Prof. Freitas,

"#1. I wish for ongoing, open dialogue about the sex-abuse scandal and how to heal from it."

So talk about it. What are you waiting for? The Church to publicly fagellate itself? It has done that in many places over the last several years. The Church to be perfect? Ha ha. Good luck. I am glad the Church isn't perfect, otherwise the likes of me wouldn't fit in.

"I’ve yet to see the hierarchy working to repair its broken flock, to raise it up."

They're in a hard spot, really. Most of the victims were given money as part of a nondisclosure agreement. Prudent by worldly standards, and what her attorneys recommended. This practice is pretty standard for out-of-court settlements. Some years later, goaded by attorneys, they come forward again, publicly, demanding more. The Church pays out more after being forced to air her dirty laundry in public - laundry no dirtier than that of most public institutions, as the WaPo has reported (Oct 2007 carried a LONG story about the vast extent of sexual abuse in public schools, for instance, but the similar has been documented regarding the "healing professions" and more). But the Church should certainly hold herself, and perhaps even be held, to a higher standard because she makes vastly higher claims about herself. And we, the Church, have let people down. It wasn't just pastors and bishops who let down those children - parents, neighbors, and coparishioners who are even vaguely attentive know when things are amiss. Nobody helped. Now, with them (rightfully) badly injured and very angry at the Church, it is hard to see exactly how the Church is supposed to step in "to heal them".

"Where are the resources to help grieving Catholics move through this pain rather than leave the Church?"

Actually, most dioceses have a LOT of resources available. There are certainly more than a few shrinks in the world, both Christian and non-Christian, who are happy to sit these folks on a couch. There are books available in Borders (and probably at the local rectory or parish library) outlining the basic path of healing from sexual trauma at the hands of an authority figure.

I have heard a LOT of people say that the Church hasn't acted quickly enough or done enough. They might be right. But nobody I know has ever been able to offer concrete solutions (that haven't already been widely implemented within the Church) or point to an organization that has done more or better.

"#2. I wish for an encyclical on young adult Catholics."

That would be GREAT. Here are some documents from the Church that will at least in part be relevant to young adults (they have been to me - I am 30 years old). They are all available at www.papalencyclicals.net:

Mulieris Dignitatem (On the Dignity of Women)
Iuvenum Patris (On St. John Bosco, Father and Patron of Youth)

At www.nfcym.org/catholicym/popemessage.htm, one can find audio feeds of a number of addresses by JPII specifically to young people (16-32 or so, the European understanding of "youth").

There is a book of some such addresses by JPII entitled "My Dear Young Friends" that is available on Amazon.com, but can probably be found free online by googling it.

Also relevant, though inspecifically, on www.papalencyclicals.net:

Dives in Misericordia (On the Mercy of God)
Sollicitudo Rei Socialis (On Social Concerns)
Catechesi Tradendae (On Catechesis in Our Times)
Christifideles Laici (On the Vocation of the Laity)
Crossing the Threshold of Hope (Modern Questions)
Familiaris Consortio (On the Family in the Modern World)

"If the Catholic Church continues to ignore the way that adolescence in the west has changed with lightning speed because of technology, the sexual revolution, and the women’s movement (among other issues), then the Catholic Church will soon have to face an even greater drop in membership"

Ah, alas, if by this you mean that unless the Church "gets with it" and "changes its outdated ways," then you fundamentally misunderstand the Church's self-understanding. The Church's morals have ALWAYS been outdated. That's an effect of timelessness - the thing is always either "ahead of its time" or "behind the times," but for people caught up in the times, it's hard to tell the difference. Prof. Freitas, if you want to be truly countercultural, as most people like to think of themselves in our independence-obsessed age, you might as an intellectual exercise try breaking with the pack, putting away the opinion polls, putting aside our times' ingrained assumptions (dogma? ideology?) and looking at the Church's ancient handed-on teachings with fresh eyes.

The Church really has been bending over backwards as fast as an old lady like her can bend, in order to reach out to youth. The intellectual elites have done their best to ignore the World Youth Days, World Youth Missionary Sundays, etc. They might be entirely unaware of the number of Catholic publishing houses that have completely retooled themselves to produce cool literature and new media for a younger generation. They might not have noticed how 20 years ago almost no Catholic parishes in the US had youth ministers on payroll, and that now most do. Still, that is what is going on.

"as if Catholicism has nothing to say of relevance to their lives."

If they're not listening because they expect not to like what they hear, then how do they know what the Church is saying to them? That's not exactly fair, is it?

"#3. I wish that the Catholic hierarchy would stop treating Catholic women who speak out on women’s issues like pariahs."

Depends what the issue is, in my experience. Pre- or post-natal infanticide are out of the question. Requesting the ordination of women shows more a lack of knowledge about the tradition and teaching of Jesus than it does about politics. The question has been discussed ad nauseam, and isn't really a question as much as a misplaced desire. People who want more "leadership roles" for women in a parish have OBVIOUSLY not stepped foot inside a Catholic parish office in the last 40 years.

If by "women's issues" you mean the dignity of femininity, the dignity of motherhood, the right to good working conditions and fair employment, the specific contribution of women to the workplace, to home life, to the body politic, if you mean working to end polygamy, female genital mutilation, coercive population control measures, if you mean the safety of their children (according to pretty much every poll ever, the priority concern of most women worldwide), if you mean any of these things - the Church has been speaking about such things for a very long time.

---

Lots of times, what makes people feel alienated from the Church isn't some Church teaching or failure of the Church to speak to some issue, but a sin that they won't address as such. The woman that is angry about "women's issues" may have had an abortion (and deeply detests herself for it, and wants to be told she's OK - oh, if only she would go to Reconciliation how much healing she would receive). The student who things the Church is "out of step" often won't give up extramarital sexual relations with his girlfriend or has all sorts of anxiety about sexual inclinations that he'd rather not have, and dovetail with his general sense of being outcast all his life (in and outside of the Church). The couple who thinks the Church is "irrelevant" often are afraid that they won't be able to manage their debt if they have another child because they stopped using birth control.

That's my own experience. Check it against your own. Maybe I'm onto something.

You are beating a dead horse...Get over it and quit trying to stir up trouble.

Dan78,

The Church hasn't amended her dogma to regain relevance so far. Isn't that one of the chief complaints against her?

"Relevance" as it is used here means faddishness. It means going from Slinkies to Silly Putty, or from PDAs to Blackberries. But the Church isn't in the business of selling things for popular consumption to make a profit or to remain popular. This point should be patent from the number of weird teachings that the Church has maintained, popular or not.

The Gospel of John, chapter 6, presents an interesting parallel. In it, Jesus teaches about the Eucharist, and his teachings get weirder and weirder. At the end of the passage, people scorn his teaching and "After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him," (Jn 6:66). Jesus then asks his inner circle, the Apostles, if they are going to ditch Him too. The parallel is that Jesus doesn't change or amend his teachings to get all those people to come back.

For two thousand years the Church has been following, haltingly, lamely, limping in His footsteps, whatever people may think.

The Catholic Church, like any religion, will amend its dogma to modern opinion when offered a choice between merely being an obstacle or impediment to human progress or being completely irrelevant.

The author of this article is too young to know that the largest financial institution in the world lost a generation in the sixties. Many people I know who were raised Catholic have severe psychological problems because of the church's unrealistic view of the world.
The Vatican made a deal with Hitler not to destroy it's precious city in exchange for their not condemning the massacre of the Jews.
This pope was a member of the Nazi party when he was very young, this alone indicates his willingness to follow authority blindly. Now he follows the insane doctrine of the church that you must be celibate until you are married and that birth control is off limits in an age when STDs can kill you.
It's no wonder that their is a rumor that the number 666 is said to be engraved in his crown.

eeew

Attention S P I D E R M A N 2;

Very God insight and Pattern recognition Ability's ye hath! Right On!

Ya mons!

I agree completely with your 3 wishes for the church. Unfortunately, Catholic leadership has not, or cannot, address the reality of modern life in the West. Apparently, they continue to operate by assuming (or insisting) that the laity do NOT have the ability to think critically, or to question their leadership and judgment. Without a lot more humility and openness, their alienation from church members will only grow. As the church authorities increase their adamance on conformity to papal dictates, the church will continue to move irrevocably towards becoming a destructive and damaging organization rather than one which does good in the world.

And to think, we Americans have the temerity to criticize Muslim fundamentalists. We should look in the mirror!

Pat,

I believe in "Loving the sinner, hating the sin."

Calling an action wrong is not judging a person -- because sexuality does not encompass the entirety of that person.

PS - it is obviously true that anti-catholicism is the anti-semitism of the left...

I agree with Thiago of Brasil!

In the movie "The Mission" with Jeremy Irons and De Niro - the priest reminds another priest that The Church [and the Jesusit Order] isn't a Democracy it is an ORDER!

Many Americans and Western People living in Democratic countries think or feel that everything is based on popular opinion or demand. They because "because the world is changing, so must we." But fail to remember that Yes, change is inevitable but in order to be real it must be thought out and not just done for the sake of doing.

The movie "The Mission" it ends with the bishop, who was in charge of over seeing the transfer of South American territory from the Spanish to the Portuguese, witnessing hundreds of thousands of priests, religious, lay and Native Americans slaughtered by the Portuguese and the Governor of the New Territory tells the bishop in a smug way, "Thus is the world." (meaning the world and time are changing so go with the flow - you have no choice but to see it our way and to change even if the change mean the death of innocent people). The bishop poperly responds, "No, thus have we made the world." I say, NO, the Church does have to change the because the world is changing for the sake of going with the flow. We are not guaranteed whatever Ms. Freitas three wishes may be... they are her wishes and behapes not good wishes for her or other and most definitely for the World Wide Chruch of Jesus Christ!

Anon writes to James:

"PS - your orientation has nothing to do with me - but it doesnt mean that I must approve your action/thoughts - just like you are not required to approve of Catholic actions/thoughts. This is a free country after all..."

You really are a bigoted pig, Anon. Who are you to judge him? Not every Catholic thinks the way you do.

Ms. Freitas might have PhD behind her name but where did she purchase those letters? She might be well intentioned but she knows nothing about Catholic Theology or Culture or might I even say what CHRISTIANITY is about in this world (on this side of paradise). The Church and Chrisitian is not a Religion that is here to be changed by the views of 6 million Catholics in America or by daily opinion polls or to go with the flow of popular cultural thinking or lack of spiritual deep thinkers. It is to be counter cultural. It must weight popluar opinion to the unchanging mindset of God - As I recall, Jesus (the founder of the Christian Movement) was counter cultural during his time and he did not hold his tongue about his mission, the Mission that His Father sent him to do. Jesus and his Father were ONE. As Jesus walked this earth and encountered the lost, forsaken, confused and sinner he made it His mission to bring them back to the Father as he brought the Father to him and what the Father aske dof him was UNCOMPROMISING. Uncompromising to the degree that although Jesus associated with others he NEVER became like "others" but was so in touch with himself and the mission of God the Father that other saw this and became like Jesus, they so desired in all human effort wanted and attempted to be like Christ. The Church, the Catholic Church, is the only church that understands this. Many attack the Church for it's solid stand and unwavering move when it comes to matters of faith and Tradition. For the Church knows, though the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit that popular opinion and fads come and go but the WORD of GOD remains unchangable and uncompromised! Ms. Freitas as so many Americans want the world to be molded into their image instead of seeking understanding and molding themselves into the Likeness and Image of God. As for me and those I will encounter in my life... I will put my heart, soul and money on the Church and NOT Ms. Freitas or pop culture or opinions! If I did I just might be chosing DEATH in stead of everlasting LIFE! and life in abundance!

Guys keep playing games (and are the same poster) because you can't defend your words and anti catholic bigotry...

End of story.

Anon:

I don't know what you're talking about and I don't even want to know.

You make me sick.

James writes to Anon:

"I'm a gay man and I don't wear pink dresses. But I won't keep you. Did you say you had a clan meeting?"

Anon:
I have to go to bed. Let us know how the meeting went.

James,

PS - your orientation has nothing to do with me - but it doesnt mean that I must approve your action/thoughts - just like you are not required to approve of Catholic actions/thoughts. This is a free country after all...

A little respect, however, is not too much to ask.

Don't be an obscurest, James (or should I say Jack, Ilan etc.)

The poster was poorly attempting to attack the masculinity/orientation of another person.

I guest this is OK with you - so long as it is used against a Catholic...

Anon:

And by the way, I was raised Catholic, but I'm an abomination, right?

Take the Pope with you to the meeting.

Anon writes to Ilan

First Catholic bashing, now gay-baiting...?

Where exactly does your bigotry stop?

PS - you are late for the Klan meeting...

I'm a gay man and I don't wear pink dresses. But I won't keep you. Did you say you had a clan meeting?

I see, you have no answer against the my challenges to your bigoted speech on here - nor to your obvious hate and stance against dialogue with other faith groups - so you decide to attack the pope about his wardrobe.

How very mature and intellectual of you.

Like I said, the Klan is calling...

Ilan writes:

"Here is a physics question: If he walked on water and somehow there was a mishap, would his dress keep him afloat?"

If I recollect my high school physics correctly, the answer is no. It might delay his sinking for a bit, but then it would sabotage any effort he might make to save himself.

This assumes he wouldn't be able to walk on water, of course.

Best,
Jack

Ilan,

First Catholic bashing, now gay-baiting...?

Where exactly does your bigotry stop?

PS - you are late for the Klan meeting...

I have a feeling that Orly, Miriam, Evan happen to be the same bigoted poster...i.e. an anti-catholic troll.

Way to keep up the hate! Making the world a worse place...

Orly:

Point taken. I don't know any men who wear pink dresses, but then, I don't know any former nazi youth.

One should not judge the wardrobe choices of another, particularly not those of nazi youth, of whose taste, I for one, am ignorant.

Here is a physics question: If he walked on water and somehow there was a mishap, would his dress keep him afloat?

Why is everyone so critical of the pope's choice of a pink dress and matching beanie?

Some men can wear pink. Personally, I find it quite fetching.

I admit the humongous cross is a bit loud, the dress flouncy. But the pink is okay....

If he plans to continue with that shade, my only suggestion would be a trip to the Vatican tanning salon.

He could use the time to reminisce about his nazi youth days, when a good tan was a sign of closeness to the laboring earth, though he might have been too prancing in his brown nazi uniform to labor much.

Look at it this way, my friends. Pink is brighter, more refreshing than brown.

And the hat should match. Perhaps, the Catholics could take up a collection and get him a matching handbag.

Miriam states: "Hard to think like them, but one has to."

Miriam, who are you directing your bigotry against here? "Think like THEM"

Hard to think like who?....blacks? mexicans? atheists? catholics? whites? indians? jews? protestants?

Miriam states: "we are dealing with....A bitter, ignorant, bigoted people."

Is this a joke??? Have you read your posts?

I say that the pope and Jewish leaders (among others) are interested in and will have dialogue - which is a great thing - and you call me a bigot???!!!

WOW!

I will pray for you - along with the other misguided and bitter people on this forum.

Understanding and love people, come on - its not that hard!

Evan,

Thanks, of course I won't reply. It was really stupid of me, but sometimes I forget who or what we're dealing with. A bitter, ignorant, bigoted people.

As you probably know, many people consider "The Messiah of Stockholm" to be her magnum opus. Me? I consider all of them to be stunning, except maybe "Heir to the Glimmering World."

Keep your children safe, Evan. A lot of people are putting their kids in self-defense classes. You've probably done that. Hard to think like them, but one has to.

Somebody, Josh, maybe, a man who posts here, whose nephew was beaten by Cathoic thugs calls it realpolitic. That's what it is.

I'm with Barbara L. on the conversion business. I know it's it goes deeply against the Jewish grain, that conversion is a deeply personal decision, etc., etc., but there are too many of them, too few of us, and they are thugs.

Thugs with a nazi youth pope.

M

Friends I would like to add some issues that this current Pope have never addressed. I hope practising and devout Catholics would answer these issues.

1> The pope urban who called for the first crussade which led to slaughter of all the innocent Muslims and Jews as well as orthodox Christians in the holy land. For that sin , that pope and his cohorts the baldwins(i.e. the military leaders of the Crussade) must be excommunicated from the catholic church.

2> All the european emperrors and all catholic religious leaders who forcibly converted the latin americans to Catholicism be excommunicated from the catholic churh.

3> Adolph Hitler who was a baptized roman catholic
should also be excommunicated from the catholic church for his sins against humanity.

"That's your Catholic media talking. Not us."

Funny how anger clouds the mind, isn't it?

Catholic media! Wow - this reminds me of the conspiratorial bigots who claim the media is controled by the Jews...

Get real, and get over the bitterness. Dialogue is good for all - so is understanding.

He was invited by several prominent Jewish community leaders as a gesture of good-will and he accepted as a gesture of goodwill and friendship.

Sorry if this goes against your entrenched and hateful notions of relations between people.

Anon:

Kindly read what Ilan wrote and what Miriam pasted. Also, there is more than one synagogue in New York, and we have no pope who speaks for us all. That's your Catholic media talking. Not us.

I know you're "God's people," practicing the religion of love," but what Miriam and Barbara write is quite clear.

Get out of our face. End your psychotic Passion plays, return our book to us, cleanse your NT. Do not harass and physically abuse our children. Do not stereotype us. Do not spread racist hatred to other countries and other continents, including the Middle East.

Your hearts are hardened, you are blinded by hatred, filled with anxiety because your supersessionist ideology has left you insecure.

Your hatred and bitterness will not be cured by "accusing." Your minds and hearts are poisoned.

I've read Ratzinger's garbage. I've studied the Holocaust intensively for years. He was not required to join the Hitler youth. No one was. The man is a liar. No surprise.

My job is not to rid you of your christian bitterness, bile, and hatred.

It is to keep you away from my children and wife. It is to make sure you know the next time you print racist filth on this blog you'll be getting much worse than this. I don't want my children reading your garbage, hearing "the Jews killed Christ." The christians killed Jews. They still do.

Go see your Former Nazi Youth member with pink cap and beanie.

Miriam:

Ignore this bitter, ignorant person. They are what they are.

And by the way, I'm fond of "The Pagan Rabbi," too. Ozick is so complex, so brilliant. I don't know why, but I'm obsessed with "The Messiah of Stockholm."

Evan

Miriam,

The nazi canard is very old and simplistic (Benedict was 12 at the time of nazi youth and it was mandatory in his area of the country). He has discussed the experience in length if you wish to learn more.

As for "leave us alone," the pope was invited to the synagogue by the Jewish leaders of NYC...both wish for dialogue and understanding and friendship.

...something that the regrettably bitter people on this forum seem to know nothing about.

Well, you've got to hand it to the Catholic Church. They started their muderous rampage long before Galileo, and now they have a Hitler youth member at its head.

It's a long tradition. Met a formet Ecuadorian Catholic the other day. Got so terrified about what she was learning about Jews, she refused to go to school. Her mother couldn't calm her down. Got pretty bad.

Jesus, the water skiier, yeah, you could be his "people." So, why not just ski? Enjoy life?

Get out of our faces. Return our Bible to us and get your own book.

No, well why not walk on water then?

When I came to this country in 1970 from Cuba, I was very catholic. I joined St. Elizbeth in NYC. The church was run by other immigrants (Irish and other Europeans) and the parishioners were mostly dominicans. I found a sence of community. The priests and nuns were wonderful and they made us feel welcomed. Unfortulatly we only hear about the bad priests.
Although I had a very positive experienced with my Catholic community, I stopped bein catholic a long time ago (way before the latest excandals). I felt that it was wrong for the church to tell married couples not to use effective ways of birth control, such as condons. I also felt that it was wrong to wait such a long time to recognized that Galileo was right (about the world bein round) and that the church was wrong.
I don't think that church leaders are reponsible for the acts of an individual priest, but I think church leaders becomes accomplices when they place a prist whom they know has abused children in another assignment. Church leaders have failed to protet its people. Furthermore, in some cases they have put them in danger and are reponsible for the damage done to them. I wonder,how long will it take for the chruch top officials to appoligize to the victims, perhaps as long as it took to apolize to Galileo?
I have good memories from when I was a cotholic. I repect those who are still catholic. I know that there are a lot a good things happening within the different chuch communities and that there is potential for greater good. Yet I don't regret leaving the church. I can't ingnore some of its unfare teaching and policies. I can't support some of its actions. I can't stop thinking about Galileo.

Don,

Jesus is not going to pay the billion dollars owed so far to settle the pedophilia cases. We the "pew people" are paying and probably will continue to pay for the next 100 years.

It is obvious from the Catholic parishes that I attend that we are not getting the brightest and the best priests based on the significantly poor sermons. And no faith in God will change that.

The old European white guys will continue to rule the papacy forever because the old white guys keep appointing more old European white guys as cardinals. What will happen though in 40-50 years is a complete collapse of Catholicism from its flawed foundations.

Celibate priests? Apparently not, based on the cases of pedophilia, homosexuality and the large number of priests with gals in South America.

And letting married Episcopal priests enter the Catholic priesthood vitiates any celibacy rules and must make many a good celibate priest very upset.

With respect to not answering the historical Jesus movement, here is a synopsis of said movement and its conclusions:

Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

With respect to the "Holy Eucharist":
(from the class notes for a graduate theology class at a major Catholic university)

"Communion is not Christ's physical Body and Blood since Christ exists as a spirit therefore has no physical form.

Transubstantiation is still a Catholic doctrine, but it never meant a literal transforming of bread and wine into the physical body and blood of
Jesus. "Substance" in medieval philosophy referred to the essence of a thing
and was not reducible to material appearance.

Transubstantiation is a way of
expressing belief that Jesus Christ is SOME HOW present in the consecratedbread and wine in a special way. Some theologians believe that"transignificantion" would be a better term today than transubstantiation."

Tell you, what Anon, read Barbar L's post, which I have posted below. Why would seeing this former nazi youth member interest me? Why when I've witnessed much of what Barbara L describes would this interest me?

Tell you what. Don't even worry about being "the religion of love." Just leave us alone. End of discussion. No can do? Well, read on, my friend, and expect to read more and more and more.

Forward to Anon:
Posted on April 15, 2008 23:03

Barbara L:
Frank writes:

"Why do people think it is okay to bash Catholics but when you talk about a Jew you are an anti semite?"

Well, Frank, I'm not the spokesperson for the Jewish people, but I speak for myself when I ask, how come christians are so obsessed with us?

Why are children all over America taunted with "the Jews killed Christ"? Why if any issue concerning Jews comes up on this blog or any other it is filled with hate-filled stereotypes about us? Why in this country, do gangs of christians pick on little kids? Why were there riots, not covered by the media, after Mel Gibson's movie was released, which, incidentally, was first released in Dubai? Why, wherever Christianity goes, does anti-Jewish racism go with it?

Someone used the example of Korea, in which there are no Jews.

Why do Christians have Passion Plays in which people dress up like Jews, and yell "Kill him! Kill him!"

How does Poland manage to remain antisemitic when there are fewer than 5,000 Jews there, most of them elderly?

Why do Spaniards carry placards of grotesque figures (representing us) during there "religious ceremomies)? Haitians?

I could go on and on and on.

We have never thought or spoken as we are now, so far, as I know, in history. Yet I am hearing more and more of this.

The Christians have taught us well, Frank. We've had two thousand years to learn from the religion of love.

Well, some of us are beginning to get it.

But not everyone posting anti-Catholic sentiments is Jewish. Some are Protestants. To me a christian is a christian. Protestants I know, even atheists of Protestant descent, always look to blame the catholics. I don't make such distinctions.

I've been victimized by both, and let me not forget the orthodox.

Stop hating. Leave us alone, and you might do better.

And watch out. We might start getting into the conversion business.

April 15, 2008 10:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments

Posted on April 15, 2008 22:57

HL:

Several scholars have provided convincing evidence that Paul from Tarsus was always Paul from Tarsus. His thinking was so far from the Judaism of the times, I wouldn't even know where to begin.

For one thing, marriage was and still is, for many Jews, an obligation. Jews did not then and do not know wish to hasten the last day. Then and now they are responsible for Tikkun Olam, roughly translated as "perfecting" or "healing the world," the whole world. No way could Paul have been Jewish. That is a Christian self-legitimation myth.

The SanHedrin did not consider matters of heresy, did not convene frequently. There is documentary evidence to support this. During the Roman occupation, Jews were besieged by barbarians. Under these horrific circumstances, some of the most brilliant, educated Jewish men, all Pharisees, even a few women, were working out translations into Greek for those Jews who had wound up in Greece. Not easy, and the translations from the Greek are filled with inaccuracies.

Prophets of various sorts were emerging every day. It had gotten to the point of insanity, was interpreted as being symptomatic of the oppression, and ignored by most, although each had its few adherents. There is absolutely no reason why anyone would have given more attention to Jesus than to any of the others, and evidence provided by Catholic, Jewish, and Protestant scholars has shown that they did not.

The NT is filled with racism from beginning to end. The gentile Greek Paul is not the only culprit.

For two thousand years, this document has led variously to hatred, discrimination, genocide.

The wretched thing needs to be tossed.

"God is LOVE - this is the message of the pope."

Coulda fooled me. But I'm just an 'objectively-disordered' 'sinner' whose equal treatment under the law must be virulently-opposed,

And Mother help you if you figure their 'God' ain't actually 'love,' but just maybe 'Love,' is God enough.

Miriam writes, "Racism is built into christianity. It's part of its doctrine, its book."

Really...?

Is that why the pope is visiting a synagogue in NYC? Or praying for the the souls of victims and attackers at ground zero? Or meeting with representatives from all religions?

Try to have an open mind and heart, Miriam, and other bitter commentators on this blog.

God is LOVE - this is the message of the pope.

Arminius,

“But he was instrumental in including all of humanity in the message of Jesus, and of proclaiming, loud and clear, the message of Love.”

I don’t think so; let’s see how Paul refers to the Jerusalem pillars themselves [James, Peter and John] and their emissaries sent to Galatia and Corinth to preach the real gospel of Jesus:

In Galatians Paul says: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.”

Here Paul is cursing the people who for no fault of their own were preaching the simple gospel of Jesus; the only gospel they knew. “We can tell from the above passage that whoever his opponents were, they were Christians; in the sense that they were preaching about Jesus. But according to Paul they were preaching another gospel that, according to him, "perverts" his own true "gospel of Christ". That Paul disapproved of this competing gospel is clear, for he openly cursed them.”

In 2Cor. Paul says: “Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendents of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one.”

Elsewhere Paul says: “Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil-workers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.”

Note that Paul called his opponents dogs, a general Jewish term of abuse. His opponents were the pillars themselves [James, Peter and John] and their emissaries.

And finally, Paul’s loving wish for those Christian missionaries from the Jerusalem Church in Galatia that they emasculate themselves:

“I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves.”

Just think about it for a minute and imagine those words coming out of the lips of Jesus.

Umm, no worries, Miriam. As I said, I Googled it and read some reviews. Not seeing the bearing from there.

PaganPlace,

If you're referring to the Ozick story, that's not the point at all. It has to do with "pity," compassion.

The tree's language is spectacular. The rabbi wants to liberate the spirit within the tree to set it free. There is a deeper mystical theology to it that you really don't have to know to enjoy it. The rabbi's wife condemns her husband. She is accused of, condemned for lacking "pity," which in Judaism means connectedness, compassion, empathy, love, but not in a Christian sense.

Sorry to give away so much. If you're in a bookstore or library take a look at it. I really don't want to translate it into Christian terms, but since it would take too long to explain the Jewish thinking, let me put it this way: The rabbi and the man who "accuses" (not easily done in Judaism) the wife, are far more "Jewish" than she is.

Ozick isn't trying to convert her readers to paganism or to anything. That isn't the point.

Miriam

It is funny to see many anti-catholics read articles about pope...

In my imagination I was a soldier on a secret mission, unknown to the world, but only to God who saw what the priest did to me and how it disaffected me at the Army Chaplain School, a few months later. I like the new pope.Same as the old pope. Love them both.Neither one ever asked me What could they do to help me get over it all. I would tell them but no one seems to want to hear. Thats too bad because my secret mission was to be a witness before his throne of truth, with all that is implied in that word.Ive been told Benedict is a deep thinker. So am I. Ive a liftime of observations from a victems persective,and would be grateful to share it with an interested informed mind.If that day ever comes I swear if you dont hear angels sing I will do it for them. All the church applaudes when I sing a beautiful song well.As a sacred performing artist,most of my career I get paid too. either by check or my own collection plate in the city marketplace.I could do so much more to the benediction of the Church if they would just....listen....to the other eyewitness account of the ugly music. You never get the harmony you want without using your ears.

The only info on that story I could Google emphasizes how horrible, horrible bad bad it was to experience a 'Goddess of Nature.' Not seeing that as so productive right now. :)

Evan,

Yes, of course, you covered it. You see my point.

Jeremy,

I have read "The Pagan Rabbi." Ozick fascinates me. The compassion in this story, the beauty of her ethics and morality, the language of the tree. . . .

Miriam

Miriam. As a Pagan, I don't presume I didn't help make this mess. But just look at this nonsense. Some things don't help. Among them are the dehumanization of others. We gotta *rehumanize* others.

But most especially, ourselves. The land we stand on now wasn't populated by people who prayed our ancestors the strangers would convert to their ways, but that *our* ancestors would teach us better. It's a little late, but, message received. We will be better, or none of this talk is worth the electrons.

Miriam,

Yes, of course, idolatry. Broadly, I think I covered it, no? But you're right. Christians are literalists.

In that wish should also come the ideal that all man kind was created equal and that the Catholic Church need to re-visit their thoughts on homosexuality in order not to alienate an entire congregation of their people. I have had the debate until I am exhausted and yet still it seems ok to forgo this thought as well.

Bankrupt diocese, but religion is not supposed to be about money. A sin has a price, damnation of hell. 2 Irish catholic men talked about this years ago...

"I give most of my donations to CRS. Catholic Relief Srevices. I won't pay for the sins of my parish priest."

CRS, a bright future against the darkness of hunger.

Miriam,

Amen, Selah.

PaganPlace:

There is a beautiful story by Cyntia Ozick called "The Pagan Rabbi," beautiful, sad, and profoundly moral. I don't want to give too much away, in case you decide to read it. I think you would like it.

PaganPlace,

I wouldn't know. I'm not christian. I'm indifferent to what others workship. What I'm not indifferent to is bigotry, racism, etc. I'm not that fond of child rape, which has gone on within the catholic church since the middle ages and continues.

Racism is built into christianity. It's part of its doctrine, its book.

I don't know of any pagans in modern times who have perpetrated genocide or grab up the media, or beat up little children because "they killed christ."

I don't know of any pagans or animists who were members of the hitler (raised as a catholic) youth.

I don't know of any central pagan institution who signed an oath of allegence to the nazis, or who are nazies today.

Some of the people posting in opposition to the pope's visit may be protestants. I wouldn't know. I'm Jewish. Things are changing with us. It took two thousand years, but we really have had it.

Don't assume it's just the fundo's posting.

Miriam: "Good list. I'd add worshipping statues."

Funny thing, some Christians keep insisting I worship trees and statues, but get all testy when I say you worship crosses and books and graven images of the Ten Commandments.

Evan:

Good list. I'd add worshipping statues.

"What can you expect from any people that believe in a man-god, worship a corpse on a stick, elevate people to sainthood, debase natural sex, etc.?"

Humanity. In America, American humanity.

No more, no less. Because if we want to claim they aren't right about the world, we have to be *better* than saying such things about half my personal family. If you do not believe they can be that human, there is no reason to say this.

Is sex unique among "modern" teens? I don't think so. The Catholic Church revising its doctrine to maintain membership levels smacks of an American political party revising its platform to maintain registered party members. I am not a Catholic, nor do I practice any religion. Yet I believe that religious doctrines that are revised to suit modern practices undermine the basic belief structure of a religion. The Pope should stick to his guns even if he is the last Catholic standing, which would add integrity to the Church teachings. The author's thesis is that society has advanced and outgrown certain religious precepts. Yeah, right. It has advanced technologically, but that's about it. Observe the multitudes weeping and gnashing their teeth in front of the TV watching "American Idol" and tell me that this society has advanced beyond the Neanderthals. Hang in there, Benedict.

The whole thing comes down to this:

What can you expect from any people that believe in a man-god, worship a corpse on a stick, elevate people to sainthood, debase natural sex, etc.?

I have no doubt they are some entity's people. The question is which one's.

It's the power they and the other christians have in this country. And, yes, they are all grabby.

B16:

How bout instead of blindly condemning people as 'Catholic-bashers' for criticising your claims to powers beyond your own religion, take just half a look at how so many people got these 'wild ideas.'

You might find unexpected allies against a lot of Fundie unfairnesses toward you. But you need to be fair, ourselves.

Ilan, hope you don't mind my cribbing from your post.

My three non-Catholic wishes:

The pope leaves the country.

He takes the catholics with him.

"God's people" figure out how to be less grabby and racist.

"Do you wonder why Haiti is in such dire staits now and even before?"

Duvalier and getting caught between the Cold War and the Church?

"Yes, Paul does throw some sand in the gears occasionally, which I have trouble with. But he was instrumental in including all of humanity in the message of Jesus, and of proclaiming, loud and clear, the message of Love."

Loud, yes, my friend. Clear? Not seeing it.

Speed123 wrote "I don't know who is more confused and aggressive"

If I or Jacoby were doing this argument against the Catholic Church just 4 centuries ago, both of us would have been burned at the stake for heresy. The difference is not because of doctrinal change but because they lost the power to do so. Speaking of aggressiveness, this church has really not changed but is just forced into submissiveness (not from within but from outside). Untie the knot and see how fierce this leviathan is.

Speaking of confusion, this church is confused and doesn't know where it wants to go -- to side with philosophy of man or stick with the Bible which is the word of God. For centuries , it has been that way -- confused and still confused. Much of their members end up as atheists as a result. If ever they remain devout, they remain as confused devotees.

Roman Catholicism is the official religion of Haiti, but voodoo may be considered the country's national religion. The majority of Haitians believe in and practice at least some aspects of voodoo. Most voodooists believe that their religion can coexist with Catholicism. Most Protestants, however, strongly oppose voodoo.

Adherents of voodoo do not perceive themselves as members of a separate religion; THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES AS ROMAN CATHOLICS.

Do you wonder why Haiti is in such dire staits now and even before? Stupidity is the cause and their type of religion is the fuel for that STUPIDITY. Catholicism is a CONFUSED religion. It embraces all kinds of stupidity.

Now stop blaming me or others and look towards your practiced false religion. REPAIR IT.

It is so defective. Don't blame the ones who show the defects.

What's wrong with Catholicism is they invent doctrines like the catechism.

Even before these false teachings appeared , God already knew this coming. In Revelation 2:2 , we can read His prophetic verse, " I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil : and thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles (RC's creed of apostolic succesion), but are not, and hast found them LIARS. "

The purity of the Bible is hidden in its metaphors. Many false religions take it very literal that is why they end up as idiots. One example is the bread as the body of Christ. The bread he was referring to was His Words and not the bread that they were eating during that last supper.

Where did that holy water came from? It also came from a literal interpretation of water baptism. Christ used water to signify the Holy Spirit. As the water washes out dirt, the Holy Spirit purifies a sinful soul. There is no such thing as holy water. Catholics can't distinguish a metaphor from literal words.

My three non-Catholic wishes:

Ratzinger & co. leave immediately.

NO more newspaper, TV, internet nonsense on this junk.

The circus shuts down.

Paul is indeed widely misunderstood as is Revelation, as, for that matter, is Jesus himself.

Jesus, himself, said, "Not everyone who says to me. "Lord, Lord" will enter into the kingdom of heaven."

The Jesus sent down by God came to Earth to be servant of all but the resurrected Christ is Lord of all as he was before He came down to serve.

Paul came to both carry the word abroad and later to establish necessary rules for Church discipline that the house of God might not become again a den of thieves and prostitutes though it was indeed open to ex-thieves and ex-prostitutes.

"To him, women’s issues are related to his belief that their principle function in life is to bear children, children’s issues are related to the importance of their obeying the commands of his sexually repressed priests, and men’s issues are related to the importance of the subjection of their wives and children."

When will the ignorance and anti-catholic bigots stop, honestly??

As a woman in the Church, we are not "oppressed" and the priests are not "repressed" - we are a community in action and faith with eyes towards God.

Yes, Catholics sometimes stumble - however, there is much more meaning and love in their lives than I see in the empty and bitter and isolated posters I see in here.

No one is perfect - so look to your own beliefs and faults and attempt find peace in your heart.

Jack writes:

"Catholics own the media--fine. But this is a secular country. Take it somewhere else."

The Catholics have too much power in this country. That's why the rest of us have to suffer through this hoopla.

Is this going to end any time soon? Who gives a you know what?

Two weeks of this? Put it in your Catholic newspapers, and Catholic TV shows.

Evey day in the newspapers. I thought the papers were for news. Catholics own the media--fine. But this is a secular country. Take it somewhere else.

Recovering from the scandal? Like, you think the molesting stopped? That's a joke right?

I mean, rent out Madison Square Garden in New YorK, the Catholics that is, and let this end.

Boring. Very.

Paganplace,

Yes, Paul does throw some sand in the gears occasionally, which I have trouble with. But he was instrumental in including all of humanity in the message of Jesus, and of proclaiming, loud and clear, the message of Love.

Arminius

Well, frankly, Arminius, as soon as St. Paul gets involved, there's a little Sesame Street song: 'One Of These Things Is Not Like The Other.' I'm surprised it's so darn difficult to see.

The Catholic Church has become irrelevant, because it’s leader, who believes himself to be infallible, is first, and foremost, an exceptionally fallible human being. The most egregious example of his fallibility was his decision to be come a member of Hitler’s regime of terror prior to World War II, and his most “celebrated” example of fallibility was his delusional decision to accept the call, by a group of out of touch Catholic Cardinals, to become Pope.

He has never demonstrated a connection with the needs of the people of his Church, rather, he has shackled “the faithful” with the ramifications of every flawed decision he has been called upon to make in his capacity as an official of the Church. To him, women’s issues are related to his belief that their principle function in life is to bear children, children’s issues are related to the importance of their obeying the commands of his sexually repressed priests, and men’s issues are related to the importance of the subjection of their wives and children. By my count, two thirds of Catholics are subjected to the fortunate one third (adult men) who are in empowered by the Catholic Church.

I'm not Catholic. But,my question is: why can't there be women priest or even a woman Pope? Why can't women see that Catholic and other religions are "machistas". How can women acept that they are dirty and sinner just for being woman? I could go on asking you questions about your religion but there's no point in doing so. I just can't get it.

Hi again, Paganplace,

Regarding the Book of Revelation: I am sticking my neck out here, and prepared to try to dodge the flak.

As far as I - a Christian from the spiritual side - am concerned, that book of the bible is solid proof that some of those early Christians were goin' down on some really heavy drugs. The statements there that are attributed to Jesus bear absolutely NO relation to the Jesus of the Gospels.

Heading for the bombshelter, six-pack in hand....

Arminius

Aha, didn't think that first one went through there. Here we can observe the PP's sense of understatement in action. :)

You know, 'A Question,' there's little love lost between me and the Church, but the people who associate them with that Babylon also insist I spend *my* life doing some kind of funny things.

I'm guessing that ain't divine, nor rational. *especially* if you read that book of Revelations. Whoever wrote it was clearly bugging, but bugging about things from his own time.

You know, 'A Question,' there's little love lost between me and the Church, but the people who call them the 'W of Babylon' also insist it's a fact I sacrifice fourteen babies a year.

I'm guessing that ain't divine, nor rational. *especially* if you read that book of Revelations. Whoever wrote it was clearly bugging, but bugging about things from his own time.

Paganplace,

So you are saying that is re: an ancient time?

Uh, I dont think so..

If you actually read it...just after those verses, there is a time of great trouble such as the world has never seen, plagues, then the Day of the Lord and then a new Heaven and Earth and Christs millenial reign.

Sorry, that hasnt happened yet.

The 'Mother of all harlots' is still at it. The self proclaimed vicar of Christ is on our soil as we speak.

*raising eyebrow at 'A Mom.'

What?

"2. Science disproves it all."

This is a patently false statement...and one that denies the fact the science is incapable of capturing or explaining aspects of the human experience that are outside of the realm of technology or materialism.

As a Catholic and a mother of teenagers, I do think the question being asked about sexuality is interesting, and I agree with some of the posts that point out that the sexual revolution has not worked out so well for teens... As a society, we fail to give them structure, especially girls. It would help if the Catholic Church could be a bit more activist in putting these issues forward with young people, especially those that are not in Catholic school. Sadly, the days are past when talking to a 13 year old about sexual matters would shock them or give them "ideas" they hadn't otherwise had. I recently experienced a situation where our parish had a presentation on the Theology of the Body, but limited it to people in their 20's! More positively, we recently had some college kids come in and do a presentation on Abstinence that my 16 year old son found insightful (and he went to that session hoping to meet some girls who might respect his own values).

Here's a lay person, average Catholic response to your reason's for crisis in the Catholic Church:

The Crises (pl) in the contemporary Catholic Church:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits, Response: could not concur more with the conduct of a FEW priests is worst than inappropriate. Remember, the Holy Catholic Church is a Divine institution and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against Her. Also, please remember that Holy as the Church is, She is made up of sinners, ever one of us. Jesus is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE. His way is Love and Mercy. That we should follow.

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood. Response: The talent of the priest is irrelevant. The priest stands in the person of Christ, so when he says the consecration and changes bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, it is Jesus and His power, not the priest that completes the transubstantiation (look it up :-))

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement. Response: The Vatican and the Catholic Church has been a consistent and constant distributer of the Truth, which is Jesus.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo. Response: All the Church's teachings are grounded in the Truth of Jesus, and are taken from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. To deny the Church's teachings is to deny Jesus who gave the keys to the kingdom of Heaven to St Peter, the first Pope. Remember, Jesus told Peter what your forgive will be forgiven in Heaven and what you bind, will be bound in heaven.

5. The denial of priesthood to women. Response: Jesus chose men to be his disciples. Nuff said.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests. Response: The celibate priesthood has been a tradition for more than a thousand years. The fact that men (priests and religious brothers) and women (consecrated religious) give themselves entirely to the Lord Jesus is blessing.

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men. Response: The Church is thriving in Asia and Africa. I would expect an African or Asian Pope in the next 30-40 years. May God grant you his Peace.

I mean, the whole story on that 'Armageddon' the Fundies wrap their lives around is connected to actual prophecies that specify how that battle is intended to be fought, complete with specific standards and bronze swords and helmets of specific types and specific orders ...by like maybe 600 guys.

Please put down the launch keys. Thank you.

Umm, A Question, that would be actual Babylon, of the actual time. Seen as a threat in that time for various reasons.

Paganplace,

Thanks.

A follow up to you (or anyone who would like to comment).

If they do recognize the book of Revelation, then who, to them, is the church depicted as the 'great wh***', 'mystery - babylon the great'...etc?

Seems to me that many of the catholic church's defining attributes can be traced directly to babylonian mystery religions...and even as far as the dagon-hat the pope wears.

Dear Concerned:

Reasons people leave the church -

1. Its all a bunch of fairy tales.
2. Science disproves it all.
3. Fallible men wrote the bible.
4. There is no god.
5. I am the most intelligent creature in the world.
6. This lifetime is all there is.
7. There was no Jesus.
8. Christians are just making it up.

There are many more. If you have others, send them to me. I collect all the false statements made by people so I can prepare defenses for them.

Romans chapter 1 describes our current secular situation. First you commit sin, then you condone the sin, next you applaud others who are doing it. We are on the last run of morality. God is ready to let us slide into the historical abyss. Do not think it cannot happen to the U.S.!!!

No one is taking up the challenge of saying that teenage girls are better off (mentally and physically) today than 50 years ago.

It was your argument, Craig...

The high STD infection rates and high use of anti-depressants seems to indicate otherwise.

The idea of unhinged sexuality as "freedom" is a complete joke - sold by seculars and retailers alike...

Time to get past the leftist and blind anti-authoritarian rage of the 60s - in other words time to grow up.

(as a 25 year old - even I can see this)

Worth repeating:

The Crises (pl) in the contemporary Catholic Church:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits,

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood.

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo.

5. The denial of priesthood to women.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests.

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

"Does anyone (a catholic perhaps?) wish to comment on why the catholic church does not recognize the book of Revelation?"

The Pope landed an hour ago, ...I suspect many Catholics are otherwise occupied. But they do actually recognize the Book of Revelation, ..it's in their canon. Guessing they aren't so attached to Left Behind books based on an ancient fantasized war with Persia as a basis for how to deploy the nukes, though, which is better than can be said about what the current Resident of 1600 PA Ave thought was gonna happen when he 'assaulted babylon.'

I'm sure the Amish have no love for me, as such, Victoria, but there's much about em I respect.

It's funny, but in some ways they couldn't be further from Pagan ideology, but in lifeways, pretty close to the hearts of Pagan homesteaders on other counts. Don't tell em you're Pagan and you can have a nice time. :)

Does anyone (a catholic perhaps?) wish to comment on why the catholic church does not recognize the book of Revelation?

Donna,
Below are some comments on your wishes:
#1 - Forgiveness is the key to healing. Our Lord Jesus and his Holy Catholic Church have for over 2000 years been calling us to "forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Talking about about these horrible actions by a few priests does not not provide healing, but forgiveness does. I feel I can speak with some authority as my oldest son was abused by a priest when he was 12 years old. We didn't find out until he was in his 20's. When he finally told us, in my mind flashed all the pain and suffering caused to my entire family by this horrendous action this Priest committed against my son. Had he been in that room, my inclination would be to do him serious harm. In that instant, I heard in my heart and mind "you must forgive him." All I could do is say "OK Lord, but you've got to help me with this one." At that instant, the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders and my families healing began. WHY AM I TELLING YOU THIS? Because it is Mercy that heals, not talking.

#2. As far as the Church's teaching on sexuality, She has been constant in putting forth the Truth, which is, that sexual relations between a man and a woman is only proper when the couple is married, in the Catholic Church, in the sacrament of matrimony. Our last Holy Father, John Paul II, put forth one of the most beautiful works on human sexuality via his Wednesday audiences in the beginning of his pontificate. It is called "The Theology of the Body." Perhaps if you could read this and pursuade our young Catholics to do the same, your wish #2 will be answered. And if people leave because the Truth is too hard for them to take, so be it. When Jesus (John Chap 6) said of holy communion "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His Blood, you will have no life in you," when all his followers left, except the 12, he didn't say Hey, I'm just kidding, or I'm speaking symbolically, he asked the 12 if they would leave too. Truth is Truth. Free will allows us to dissent. This dissent does NOT change the Truth.
#3. As far as women, the greatest of all of Jesus' followers and disciples is His Holy Mother Mary. She who was conceived without sin, carried the God who the universe cannot contain in her womb, raised God the Son, was with Him throughout his public ministry, and was with Him throughout His Passion and Death, the highest and most perfect human was Mary, THE woman. I would suggest that all of us follow our Blessed Mother's example of humility, poverty and love. The more we are like Mary (men and women) the closer we grow to her Divine Son.

i'd say the repsonses of ex-catholics on this blog anyway- do make a good case for allowing some freedm for peole to define themselves meeting with greater success-

the amish send their children to live in the wordly world at about 17-18-
and then the young people have the option to return and be baptized and make a consious decision to join the community for life-

a very wise policy, as there return rate is in the 90 percentile-

boston81- i highly recommend a book called "love and responsibility" written by Pope John Paul II when he was still carol (wojtoya?)

peace all-

I left the catholic church decades ago because of their views about sex, sex being a sinful act, masturbation being evil, touching yourself or your highschool girlfriend being a sin, etc, etc, for a teenager with testosterone coming out of his ears, having to go to confession, having the priest come at you asking you directly about touching yourself or your girlfriend, like mi priest used to do to me, then making me feel guilty about it and ordering me to pray for my sins before communion was way too much for me, and now finding out that many of these same priests are child molesters protected by the church makes me sick, I left the catholic church for good and my children will not enter it either.

You know, Boston, whether you love being Catholic or not, any theological issues aside, this doesn't mean shoving crucifixes in people's faces when they want fair treatment under civil law is 'holy.' Too often, the Catholic response to complaints about these sorts of aggressions, say like 'That's just a PTSD trigger to me, sorry,' is, 'No, it's not. I know better. I can help you with your 'disorder.' '

Kind of like the abuse and beatings in the first place: "You're hurting me!" "...No, I'm not, you just don't understand, sinner. this is *your* fault."

I left the catholic churg decades ago because of their views about sex, sex being a sinful act, masturbation being evil, touching yourself or your highschool girlfriend being a sin, etc, etc, for a teenager with thestosterone coming out of his ears having to go to confession, having the priest come at you asking you directly about touching yourself or your girlfriend, like mi priest used to do to me, then making me feel giulty about it and ordering me to pray for my sins before communion was way too much for me, and now finding out that many of these same priests are child molesters protected by the church makes me sick, I left the catholic church for good and my children will not enter it either.

But, I mean, hey, it's not like the summation of the Divine in the universe has to be limited to some perception of the ultimate authority of a book, or its narratives, or a single centralized authority or anything... Right?

Sometimes my impression of Catholicism is that it's stubbornly insisting the only thing that wouldn't be a damning delusion would be to kneel again to the same people who actually just made the young kid I was live in fear. Even if I didn't have a faith of my own, frankly, Last time I did that, some people bigger than me were ...inconsiderate.

As someone who was raised Catholic and is now entirely non-religious, I can say that those wishes are all lovely, and practical, and completely unrealistic. The Church is notoriously stubborn in its antiquated sexual and feminist values (or lack thereof). Having gone through Catholic school sex-education (better term: guilt education) I can honestly say I'm lucky to have turned out as well as I did. We were taught that anything other than a light kiss was grounds for mortal sin. Masturbation for boys was a strict no-no - it wasn't even fathomed that girls would masturbate, so no one ever bothered to tell us not to! (Mind you, this was in the mid-1990s)

At more recent services that I have attended with family, priests have flat-out stated that the teachings on the roles of women, reproductive rights, and sexuality are unbending and will not be changed.

Many of those I grew up with think the way I do, yet still consider themselves to be Catholic. I do not, as I find "menu Catholicism" in poor taste - either believe it all, or don't. I fear I would offend the real believers if I were to pick and choose at their religious doctrine. So, I don't. And I'm no longer a Catholic.

"Has anyone experienced this? Were former Catholics who made the decision to leave the church in young adulthood ever really Catholic?...or just raised that way?"

I have to admit, prolly not, in my case. For someone with pretty vivid past-life memories, I have to admit it wasn't so much anything that defined reality, but I did listen. Just another nonsensical thing people did. Called 'religion.' Paid my dues, suffered the effects, ...in some ways accepted their definition of 'religion' and thought I'd have none of it, despite the spiritual experiences I was having all along. For me, becoming Pagan wasn't so much about anything new as realizing, 'Ooooh, You-Who-Was-With-me all that time, you're one a them *Goddesses.*'

There's a little (and by little, I mean huge and comprehensive)book called "Theology of the Body." It addresses pretty much everything the Church has to say on sex. It was compiled from speeches from Pope JPII. So yes, there is a heck of alot that the Church has put out there regarding these very important matters...JPII loved young people and Theology of the Body is just one way that he was trying to reach out to them...I challenge everyone who thinks the Church has "issues" with sex to go out there and read this book first, and then come back to these forums to talk about it.
By the way, I love being Catholic...and I am neither delusional, repressed, confused, brainwashed, narrow minded, or any other of those choice adjectives that seem to be thrown around these discussion boards....If anything, faith has provided me with a school of freedom, and a place where I am challenged and inspired to love as authentically as possible.
and I have hope for Catholics and non-Catholics alike in Boston and the rest of the country. Lots of hope. peace

Hi Victoria!

Thanks for the thoughtful response! This statement really hits home for me -

"but it was always my own choice, and i think if i had been forced in any way- i would have rebelled for the sake of contrary self definition"

I would have experienced the same rebellious need as well, at that age. My parents did not force me or label me. I was guided by them, but ultimately the decision was mine.

Maybe this is one reason behind the early adulthood exodus from Catholicism?

Thanks,
Craig

hi craig- i liked the tone of honesty in your query-

"Has anyone experienced this? Were former Catholics who made the decision to leave the church in young adulthood ever really Catholic?...or just raised that way?"

i was raised by an agnostic and an atheist-
and annoyed them immensely when i asked to go to church -well- it was before 7 because i got my first communion at 7- (aren't sunday mornings for sleeping in?)

and on the cusp of the eve of vatican II when after one year of my young worship- all the rules changed-

i never felt like i wasn't a catholic- but i started actively seeking other religious experiences- and when i experienced them- i felt like i was also hindu, or pagan, or sufi- but through them all, i still loved Jesus- and i still do although im not a christian at all anymore. (the only one i had problems with was judaism, as i couldnt erase the love of Jesus from my heart, whose renunciation is required)

but it was always my own choice, and i think if i had been forced in any way- i would have rebelled for the sake of contrary self definition-

i have found tremendous beauty in catholicism- but ive also found it in other traditions- the mystics of all traditions are more unified, in heart, i find- than adherents of any given religion in general.

ive been a muslim now for 9 years- and i feel that i am enhanced by- as opposed to diminished- by my past practices of worship-

in it i find a universality and inclusion that i seeked-

well, you asked with repsectful curiosity, so i tried to answer with the same-
peace

I mean, sorry to squeeze all this out in little bites, but when you see people shaking it on MTV, or whatever, the monotheist view tends to be, "This is sex, see how awful and seductive and tempting and bad it is, you must spend much of your life struggling against this!"

Pagan priestess'll say, "That silliness, that's not sex, honey. Let's talk about what it *is.*"

"Are you seriously suggesting that sexually we were healthier and better educated, say, 50 years ago than we are today?"

Craig, honestly...did a quarter of all TEENAGE girls have sexually transmitted diseases 50 years ago.

Or is this a sign of "education," openness and, above all health???

It's far better to send consistent, and factual messages of what sex is, what's going on, and what the risks are, than to set up a 'battle' between all that advertised 'sin' and all that demanded 'virtue.' The Church's scornful talk about sexuality and repression thereof has a way of forcing it out sideways, I find, into consumer excess as well as unsafe behavior. To me, these things are two sides of a bad penny.

Speed123 wrote: "It means sex education, in general, is a failure.

And so was the "sexual revolution" along with moral and health standards.".

How is it a failure? Are you seriously suggesting that sexually we were healthier and better educated, say, 50 years ago than we are today?

Craig

Well, if you think sex education is a 'failure,' consider that 'abstinence education' is no education at all. Just demands for obedience. If you understand we're thinking *primate animals,* you might understand how unproductive it is to work *against* the instincts of young people, particularly males, who, when confronted with a bigger, sexually-controlling male, even a 'divine one' will apply all that reason, however badly, to thwart that control, ...this is built-in.

I agree with POPESOAP. I wonder which organization is more glacial when it comes to change? The Vatican or Major League Baseball? Go Nats.

I agree Speed123...
Maybe the young adults don't really know what their religion is or the values and WHY they need to be respected and lived by instead of scared straight by science facts. Forget the reality here on earth of living (or dying) with a disease (b/c just wait until we find cures for some of these things), the real reasons are handed down by God and are for our life eternal, not here on earth. Maybe parents and clergy together need to be better at helping their children understand and live by that. Instead, we are willing to let our schools and TV teach our children the world's view. Personaaly, it's disgusting...and I am not even thirty years old yet.

GaryD wrote: "If you are going to blame someone for this how about blaming a school system that isn't better at teaching sex ed than it is at teaching anything else combined with a popular culture that appears to say that sexual pleasure is the only god worth worshiping."

Why not blame the parents who have left their own children in the dark about one of life's most fundamental facets? Why would the blame fall on the school system? The school system has no business educating children on the "morality" of sex.

We can see just from these posts alone that sexual ethics are deeply personal. One educational system would never be able to meet the (legitimate) needs of different families.

Craig

Wrong, Pagan -

It means sex education, in general, is a failure.

And so was the "sexual revolution" along with moral and health standards.

Most of these girls have diseases that are not blocked by condoms (HPV, hepatitis, not to mention mental health for those girls pressured) - we are not talking about HIV here...

Gary: "Remember abstinence only got a foot in the door because the other versions hadn't even slowed down Teenage pregnancy and STD rates that were stratospheric."

Then why is it worse, since then, particularly where abstinence only education has been mandated?
A real turnaround, actually.

The Christian view of sex, billed as pushing what a tempting 'sin' it is, then commanding people abstain, whatever they think it takes, results in kids behaving based on urban legend and not science and facts. Kids get hurt. They're trying to avoid STDs based on some ideas of 'sin' and 'what counts' instead of knowing what really is risky.

As someone who was "born catholic," attended catholic school from grades 1-12 and catholic university and now at 23 no longer considers himself catholic, I believe that Prof. Frietas has hit the nail square on the head. Only non-catholics care about the sex scandal, I say fix the problems for people who still go to church. What do they get for their time? Nothing but the same backwards rhetoric from an out-of-touch clergy. The seminaries in this country are terrible and need to improve their screening processes for more than just pedophilia....

The current generation of American Catholics are an apathetic, super-market, bunch just like the rest of America. It's "love thy neighbor" on Sunday and "get rid of the mexicans," come Monday morning. The previous papal see is partly to blame (better hurry up and canonize!).

This church offers nothing to people in the modern world. It is glacially slow to adapt and change, which dooms it to extinction. Current trends will only continue to drive the church into further irrelevance.

Unless, of course, the extremists and fundamentalists kill us all first....

I'm tired of hearing about the sex scandals in the Catholic church, as if there are no sex scandals in every other church and organization - including public institutions. The Catholic church was wrong to cover up for the priests when they did so and they are learning from their errors now. The media sensationalizes anything having to do with the Church -- and in the case of the sex scandals, I totally support them. But they should be equally vigilant in exposing the same scandals that occur by trusted individuals in other churches, schools, and institutions.

Hate the Church if you want to and if makes you feel better about your life, but don't be so naive as to think the sins of humanity are not pervasive in every aspect of human life.

Such drivel: For the Church to be attractive to young people, it must change its teachings to fit the lifestyles of the least disciplined members of society. Maybe the Church should embrace pre-martial and extra-martial sex and pass out condoms at the door.

Yeah right Pagan as if Abstinence only sex education is the only sex education being tried these days or ever.

Remember abstinence only got a foot in the door because the other versions hadn't even slowed down Teenage pregnancy and STD rates that were stratospheric.

If you are going to blame someone for this how about blaming a school system that isn't better at teaching sex ed than it is at teaching anything else combined with a popular culture that appears to say that sexual pleasure is the only god worth worshiping.

"Interesting new study released last month - 1 in 4 teenage girls have contracted a sexually transmitted disease..."

Showing pretty clearly that 'absinence-only' education is a failure.

actually, there is nothing wrong with leaving the catholic church, as I did a few years ago. you will be so happy and relieved that you did, believe me. I mean, they raped scores of children on a global level for years and years (and then they made the man in charge of covering up the crimes pope) -- if this isn't enough, just what would it take for you to leave? witch burnings? purification by torture? child rape? oh that's right we already did that one... the fact is that they've been peddling an illusion for centuries and the time has finally come--with genuine unimpeachable evidence--to say goodbye to this diabolical syndicate. they need you, but you don't need them...

Hank, is obviously hung up on the Catholic Church... funny considering abuse levels are LOWER than in the family or even public school systems where 2,500 teachers were cited for abuse in the last couple of years.

As for "Sex is determined and controlled by biology."

I guess Hank does not believe in free will of individual humans. Very utilitarian of you...but what can one expect from a materialist?

If you are a leader of a religious sect that numbers in the hundreds, and your members and co leaders indulge in pedaphilia, then you are arrested, and charged with rape and incest. If you are the leader of a religious sect that numbers in the millions, and your co leaders indulge in pedaphilia, then you live in a palace and are welcomed to the US by the president, and millions of your members. It's a strange and sad world we live in. As far as the catholic church and sex, well they should be separated like church and state. Sex is determined and controlled by biology. At a certain age humans will begin to experience urges. Questions will be asked and answers will be sought, either in the open or behind the scenes, but it will happen. No morality has or ever will change that. The only thing it changes is the mechanism by which this process is carried out. Some morality forces it into the shadows, and the disasters of teen pregnancy, and STDs is perpetuated. Other more enlightened philosophies, deal with it in the open, with honest information to arm our youth against the dangers that lurk in the darkness of morality. Sex today can be lethal, and to try and stand against a biological process that has been destined since birth with a morality that just says don't do it, does our entire society a dis service.

"the sexual revolution"

Interesting new study released last month - 1 in 4 teenage girls have contracted a sexually transmitted disease...

And the writer above is arguing for the Church to relax its teaching on sex before marriage?

Are you nuts??

Guess what? The Roman Catholic Church has already lost the last generation. Silly dogma, complicity in sexual crimes, and EVERYTHING ABOUT MONEY. Where can I send in my old rosary beads (see comment on silly dogma).

Many of the posters are under the impression that the Catholic Church has never changed its positions in the past, at least not about "important" issues. The Church permitted and participated in slavery (as late as 1861, the Convent of the Visitation in DC owned slaves) but now condemns it; the Church long allowed abortion in the first trimester (until "quickening"), but now forbids it; the doctrines of purgatory, limbo, the Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility are all medieval (or later) innovations in Catholic doctrine, and the first two are being shelved, to say nothing of insisting on the necessity of specific ritual practices which the Church decided were not necessary after the Second Vatican Council. Whether the Church is right to change or not, it has to be admitted that it has changed in both doctrine and in practice, and no doubt will in the future, though maybe not in time to survive.

I'd like to see the Church recognize that the 'sexual abuse scandal' is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of institutionalized abuse of all kinds... it made headlines cause of the 'scandalousness' of it, but it's part of a system.

I really wonder what Jesus would think, if he could return and see what has happended to the flock he attempted to convince of the way to heaven by love, charity and concern for "the least ones" of the world. These "princes" (where did they get that title?) live in obscene luxury, in quarters in the Vatican, which would be the envy of Ceasar himself, surrounded by priceless works of art, and the head guy flits about the world in his private jet plane. Each foreign trip for him and his handlers would feed hundreds of starving kids for years. How can so many thousands in the world support this terrible disregard for the very teachings of this Good Man?

The catholic church is not built on numbers, it is built on the WORD of GOD. It's sad but less young catholics mean more std infected youth and with that aids, more teens in trouble with the law, many ending in prison. many uneducated and poor and many not knowing the difference between right and wrong...

There are growing movements in the Catholic Church, supported by the hierarchy, that challenge the youth to discover why the Catholic faith is relevant to their lives, even with its "antiquated" positions on sexuality. Students are responding and recognize that the path to true happiness comes in a vital, living relationship with the personhood of Jesus Christ. They don't buy the world's view that sex, power, and money are the only ways to happiness. And they are normal, healthy teenagers and young adults who value education, hard work, their country, and their church.

There is room for open dialogue in the Catholic faith. Open dialogue is not defined as the Church agreeing with your opinion of what the Church should be and how it should run. Faith does not adapt to changing mores, nor should it. The Catholic Church's responsibility is to teach the truth through the study of the scriptures and tradition. Those who don't agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church should feel free to argue their case, but make sure the case is in line with the teaching of Christ, who we follow.

The people of the Catholic Church should be praising God that the sex scandals were blasted on the front pages of newspapers all over the world. The victims who came forward made a bold and courageous step in healing themselves and the Church. Many in leadership made poor decisions in these cases and they are and continue to be paying dearly for it. The victims of the scandals should continue to seek what they need from the Church, but again, their satisfaction and happiness can only come from Christ.

Catholic Church has to let the Justice punished severly the "pedofilic" prists. because not only the Pope feel envare with the scandals, us as an active members of the comunity feel extremely sad and envarese. Probably this is one of the reasons why young people run away from the church special boys. Also, It is true that the Catholic Church in United States has a lot of imigrants who support the church comparing with american citizens, but at the same time it is good to be in church for faith not for other reasons. Catholic Faith is solid, and only seeing the Pope arrival in Washington DC and New York I am convinced of this.
sorry for my English I am imigrant too.
thank you Maria

Mark Eaton said: "Can this woman sound any more like Dr. Phil or Oprah?

I am so diappointed that someone like this woman is teaching the next generation of Americans."

Why are you disappointed?

Craig

Can this woman sound any more like Dr. Phil or Oprah?

I am so diappointed that someone like this woman is teaching the next generation of Americans.

When will we realize that secular culture has sold out to the young but that wisdom only comes to the old? Wisdom seldom comes to the young. The framers of our country knew it and established a minimum age for our President. We should establish a minimum age for Professors and exclude people like this woman.

Let the kids become engrossed in popular, secular culture - meaningless sex, drugs, soulless materialism, ego worship........they will come back to the eternal truths and and light that the Church protects. I did - and so have many of my peers.

If the Church changes - to accommodate hormone-filled teens, of all things - there will be nothing to come back to - no hope.

As Benedict says - hope and love - this is the Catholic Church.

Excellent article. I am curious about this statement - "Some young adult Catholics are angry, some are apathetic, some just laugh at the idea that Catholicism could be meaningful to youth today. The “Don’t call us, we’ll call you” attitude from the Vatican about the real needs and changes in young adult life in the west stopped working with my generation. Youth need attention. Without it, they’ll just go elsewhere to find it.".

I am not Catholic and was not raised Catholic, so I wonder at this mindset. From the tone of the article, I get this impresssion - babies are born into Catholic families, and so are Catholic. They grow into adolescents...still Catholic. Then, when they are young adults, many start to question Catholicism, or at least question how it relates to them in particular.

In my mind, this is not a realistic way to look at the situation (although, this is purely conjecture on my part...feel free to correct). Here's what I see - babies may be born into the Catholic faith...but they aren't truly Catholic, are they? I mean, doesn't identifying onesself as a Catholic sort of require the ability to make up your own mind about it? Babies (and adolescents, for that matter) can't do that! I can't ask a 2-year old (or a 10 year old) to decide on the foundation for his/her entire religious belief system! Even the most scholarly and wise of religious adults struggle with such a profound notion.

So now we arrive in young adulthood. Our "Catholic" young person has some difficult decisions to make...not because he/she necessarily IS Catholic already in heart and soul, but because he/she has been labelled Catholic, when in reality they may not have made that decision for themselves yet.

Has anyone experienced this? Were former Catholics who made the decision to leave the church in young adulthood ever really Catholic?...or just raised that way?

Instead of asking "What can we do to keep these young adults in the Catholic Church?", ask "What have we done throughout this young person's life to make their decision to become Catholic in heart and soul the right one?".

Craig (fyi to all who are interested, I am atheist, raised Presbyterian in North America)

If you mean to say that the Catholic Church needs to "update" their teachings and beliefs to better accommodate 21st Century western adolescence, especially on topics including premarital sex, abortion, and contraceptives, you are sadly mistaken about the Church's very foundation. No one likes to hear that they are wrong. Thankfully the Catholic Church is not one to alter its teachings so people can feel better about the way they live their lives.

Look, a lot of people have every right to be upset with the sex scandals that have plagued the Church for decades. Many people have legitimate gripes about other Church issues. However, over time, many of the people I encounter are not criticizing the Church with love and respect, and haven't been to Church or received the Sacraments in years. So the question I ask, is there not enough to love or too much to hate? There are plenty of Catholics I know who are not onboard with all of the Church's teaching or handling of issues, but they still at least attend Mass, trying to live their lives as faithful Catholics. Can Catholics who choose not to participate in any area of Church life reasonably expect othe Catholics to heed them when it comes to discussions of faith? Perhaps some folks use the Church's pain and vulnerabilities to distract them from dealing with their own crises of faith.

Benedict like many of us suffers from the Three B Syndrome i.e. he was Bred, Born and Brainwashed in his religion. For this reason, he is unable to think past the shackles put upon him by the likes of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

The wishful thinking done by these five scribes approximately 2000 years ago continued the embellishment and fiction tradition of the Jewish scribes. The locals paid for a good story of myth and imminent second coming. There was no money in the truth but now we know the truth and it boils down to two simple statements, Do No Harm and Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself.

Time to pink slip the pope, bishops and priests???????

Dr. Freitas, in the grand scheme of things, yes yours is a wishful and hopeful thinking. The parishoners of any parish have at their heart a powerful and longtime tie to that parish, and the wish that all would be right is somehow afar off. The fact that as of yet, the Roman church has not recognized the contribution that women can play in the overall church is a major strike against the hierarchy of the church. We as Catholics, must make the message relevant to those whom we are trying to reach. Our message is one of hope and healing, yet to often the powers that be, are hindering the message of the gospel in a way that forces the young people of our church to look elsewhere for a relevant and power-filled ideal. Too many of our young people do not know the history and heritage that they have been born into and shrink from learning because of peer pressure and the nagging of their parents. I, for one, am looking for meaning in any way that I can. I choose to follow a path that is not wholly Catholic and looks to other forms of spirituality for meaning as well. I, have learned over the years that no one faith, no one religion has all the answers and so in that light, fight against the intolerance and bigotry that pervades those who have the "surety" of their faith. Let us all hope that some day the Roman Church opens its eyes to the fact that they do not have all the answers and allow the laity some say in how the Church is governed and led. For if not, then surely the Roman Church in the next generation or two will become irrelevant in the United States and our heritage of faith will be lost forever.

The Catholic church will not shrink as long as they endorse a doctrine of procreation.

Young adults always observe that religion is declining among themselves and are surprized how religious the next generation is.

Practicing Catholics, fundamentalist Protestants, Muslims and Mormons have twice as many children per woman as liberal Protestants, non-Orthodox Jews and Secularists, so every generation starts life twice as religious as the previous one.

Religosity is favored by evolution, but not for the same reason it works in the animal kingdom -- survival of the fittest by natural selection -- but by discouraging the exercise of reproductive choice.

You've captured these three points so eloquently. #2 seems to be a place where parishoners can/must take ownership. Those of us who are concerned about making our faith relevant to young people need to shake our complacency and joing together with our leaders to create a plan.

It's interesting to me that Evangelical Christian communities are booming right now, especially with young members. What is it that they have figured out?