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ANN O. (me) said: I guess I should have said that Buddhism seeks elimination of desire rather than elimination of motivation. But how can you eliminate desire without eliminating motivation?

ANN O. again: Oops, that should have been: . . . how can you retain motivation if you do not retain desire?

Perhaps grieving is about perspective. That's a gift the departed leave the living, a stimulus to adjust and correct body, mind, and spirit, and to do our affairs without smallness of mind or character.

Jean

Many thanks for your kind words. I feel truly blessed and humbled!

Soja

Soja,

I so look forward to reading your posts. They are always so insightful. I have learned a great deal from you here.

Thank you!

Dear Professor Freitas

I have known much loss, starting from the age of eight when I lost my five month old sister, to losing the only two people in my life who have truly loved me unconditionally from beginning to end, and mountains of grief that accompanied all the loss, not just of people, but shattered hopes and dreams. So I can empathise with your situation. All I could say in response to your sad situation is: 'This too will pass.' Say "yes" unconditionally to the pain of loss. No, the pain will never be made up to you, you will get better at living with it. You will learn to be happy in spite of the gaps that have been left in your life, in spite of the scars. Trying to struggle out of the pit of grief is a bit like thrashing one's limbs in a swamp. Little good comes of it. But we are human and we do it all the same until we learn to give up and surrender to life as it is.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Hi, Norrie,

I've read that at least some Catholic theologians see childbirth pains as a penance for Eve's sin, but that never made any sense to me, and I don't think it's a usual teaching of the Church. Contrary to popular belief (even popular belief in the Vatican, hee hee) the Church has taught some different things at different times and places.

About penitential and ascetic practices in some groups, yes, that is fairly typical, with some groups being more oriented to more severe practices than others. Penitential practices come in two kinds -- giving up something legitimate and actual self-inflicted pains. The first are for "payment" for the person's guilt -- they punishment. They are also meant to strengthen character -- to make us more in control of ourselves.

The ascetic practices, Catholic or otherwise, are intended as ways of instilling habits of self-control. They are not meant to be ends in themselves, though it seems that they do attract masochists.

Except for the requirement that in Lent we must do some sort of penance for our sins, and also must do the penance a priest in Confession assigns us, in Catholicism such practices are otherwise a matter of choice -- whether a choice of a way of life (e.g., in the Trappist order or Opus Dei) or of individual practices one might choose to adopt for the health of one's soul. Being from New Orleans, a very hedonistic city, I'm not much inclined that way, but I think it's a matter of history that, yes, some self-deprivaton and some ascetic practices can be good for the soul, especially for people who want to live a life of pure contemplation.

I guess I should have said that Buddhism seeks elimination of desire rather than elimination of motivation. But how can you eliminate desire without eliminating motivation?

As to New Orleans and suffering, I must differ with you there. Yes, there has *always* been a lot of suffering, but also a lot of joy. The city has almost been wiped off the map more than once, whether by pestilence or weather. But last I read, a great big majority the people who haven't returned can't wait to get back.

A lot of people who don't know this place don't understand how being money-poor doesn't mean that you are poor in other very important ways. The Lower Ninth is proof of that. It was a neighborhood with very deep roots and fine social systems. At one time -- before drugs -- its crime rate was about the lowest in the whole city. It is quite rich in social relationships, good food, good gardening, great music, and good churches. And the same is true in other neighborhoods, including the mixed neighborhoods . So was there suffering before the storm? Of course. A lot, especially in the poorest neighborhoods. But do the people long to come back? The answer to that is yes again.

Oh, sure, New Orleanians like money, but generally we view it as a means to an end, not as an end in itself, as is so often the case in other places. It's one of the reasons why people -- both black and white -- choose to stay. We're just not into the rat race. Work? Yes. Relax? Yes. Enjoy family and friends? Emphatically yes.

Sadly, it's quite true there are some less than admirable qualities about the city, to put it mildly. You can't imagine how bad the public school system was. (Even though we keep trying to vote in qualified School Boards members, the Board always seems to turn them into petty politicians. Sigh.) But on balance I'd definitely say there is much more happy feeling than suffering. Why else would people want so desparately to come back?

Re-building can't possibly be done quickly. The city took almost 300 years to build and it won't be re-built in 20. But it's a way of life we we think needs to be preserved. Now if only we can do something about the #@#^@ school system. And keep the damned levees in good shape. Sigh.

By the way, I see that the weather services are predicting an active hurricane system. Everyone on the east coast needs to start making evacuation plans now -- serious ones. I'd say that would take most people 30-40 hours of work -- including things like having your car checked out so you can be sure of driving several hundred milesin one day or night, plus collecting *all* of your important papers or making copies of them, plus writing a memo about details of your affairs to whomever needs, and putting all that in a sturdy box ready to grab and go, and plus checking with friends or relatives out of town with whom you might stay, plus establishing a communications system with family and friends. And buying a cell phone if you don't have one (this is most important). And all you professional people, especially scholars, make copies of everything on your computer, and scan your most important works in progress and scan your prized notes

Start now. And those of you who might suffer some other kind of catastrophe -- you start preparing for it now too. End of sermon.

JJ,

Are you related to Tony Soprano's son, AJ?

This is my play, and more:

From Robert Frost's "Two Tramps in Mud Time":

"But yield who will to their separation,
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes."

Best wishes.

Norrie,

You sure have some time on your hands.

Go out and play!!

Ann O.,

Good to hear from you. We haven't conversed in a long time.

I'll leave the Catholic views on suffering to you and Donna. I don't understand them well, but I do have the impression that Catholicism may actually focus more on suffering than Buddhists do.

For example, wasn't suffering in childbirth made a great deal of in Catholicism, and didn't it have a theological grounding for its perceived necessity?

And isn't penance or suffering necessary for the expiation of "sin"? What about those cilices, the barbed-wire-like spiked chains worn around the thigh by Opus Dei members?

Buddhism accepts the general state of the everyday world of "relative truth" to involve suffering and unsatisfactoriness. It does not seek to avoid suffering in the sense of running away from it. It seeks to become free of suffering by understanding the mental processes which create the perception of suffering.

By the way, I believe you are mistaken when you write that "avoidance of all motivation also seems to be a big element in Buddhism".

I have many times read Buddhist teachers who say that that view is completely erroneous and must be avoided by Buddhists who want to advance toward enlightenment. Leading Buddhist teachers, including the Dalai Lama, are certainly not lacking in motivation.

The situation in New Orleans has been and continues to terrible. A Buddhist looking at both pre and post flood New Orleans, however, might not find much difference between the two scenes, since suffering is imbedded in existence.

TV certainly creates a picture of two different worlds there, but a suffering-meter might read the same both before and after the flood.

Best wishes to you and I hope things go well for all in your city.

Nice post Ann O. - very interesting.

Ken, saints are not lesser gods...nice try, though.

Hi, NOrrie,

You write: "I'm not trying to wean you away from your Catholicism, but would point out that it hasn't prevented or dissolved your grief."

I've been thinking recently that one of the biggest difference between Buddhism and Catholicism is how they view grief and suffering. For Buddhists the avoidance of suffering seems to be a primary motivation (though avoidance of all mortivation also seems to be a big element in Buddhism). Catholics don't seek to avoid grief as a primary goal, at least not in this life. Like Buddhism, it is not unrealistically optimistic about this world (which is, I think, one big reason that both have provided wise guidance through so many generations). But Catholics (and many PRotestants, too) are willing to *accept* grief and suffering.

I"m from New Orleans and the grief here is palpable, and not only among the poor. I read of one rich man recently who had four friends who committed suicide. (See the New Yorker's online New Orleans Journal.)

This week one of my lists was discussing how personal fulfillment doesn't happen without relationships to other people. We are essentially social animals, and what affects one affects, or can affect all. This is what I wrote back about it -- it is also about suffering:

"I can see very plainly in myself right now how the fulfillment of other people's lives is necessary for my own life to be fulfilled. I have suffered relatively little personally because of Katrina [my house didn't floood], but it is extremely painful to me to see the suffering of so many, many others whose lives are not being fulfilled. Most people here are at least somewhat depressed, and many young and middle aged people are even going crazy (suicide is way up and the schizophrenics are having a particularly hard time), and many old ones are dying indirectly of heartbreak (the obituary columns are 40% longer since the storm). Edith Stein wrote a lot about empathy. I need to go back and look at what she says now that I see its relevance in my own life. Ironically the ability to feel empathy even with suffering people *is* fulfilling somehow, and it's something to be grateful for. Explain *that*. Sigh."

In other words, suffering remains a mystery to Catholics. But there it is, and when we can *empathize* with others about it, almost miraculously it takes on positive value. No, I have no explanation for that whatsoever. But Jesus' acceptance of His cross is somehow crucial. That I do know. The *knowing* of it comes only somehow in the *doing* of it all, in our suffering *with* others. And this, after all, is the other big lesson of the Buddha.

If you believe in saints, wouldn't that make you polytheistic? Believing in a major god, with many lesser gods?

Donna,

A very nice essay.

I'm not trying to wean you away from your Catholicism, but would point out that it hasn't prevented or dissolved your grief.

The Buddha, on the other hand, said that "Life is suffering" (or, more accurately translated, "Life is always unsatisfactory").

More importantly, the Buddha taught how we can put an end to that suffering and millions have been able to.

Something to think about.

Best wishes.