Excuse Me, How Does It Feel to Be Poor?

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What's more, it is all written clearly and concisely to give access to the facts you need to form your own opinions. Annabella Marxists

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Truth is strong medicine, the risk is apparent as the sensitivity to dosage varies considerably.

It is not always popular to promote the metaphysical notion that this universe is a merit system. That no one is suffering for the sins of someone else. No one is healthy who should be sick, or sad who should be happy. And no one is poor who should be rich.

Each has what they've earned. The right to grow wiser as the result of individual effort is the only true right the universe grants any of us.

Consciousness as well as one's material circumstances usually change through acts of will. But who likes to be told that.

All of this does not negate the need for compassion and offering a helping hand for those going through a hard stretch in life. This could happen to any of us at any time.

Without question, meaningful help for the needy and disadvantaged should be given, but a helping hand (out) can only be offered for so long.

The longer view would seem to involve a recognition that:
All people, regardless of the size of their bank account, should be open to receiving insights that help them learn how to unfold their own inner resources (intuition, creativity, serenity, clarity, vision, compassion. integrity, self-discipline, etc). This to me is, at bottom, what Deepak is really getting at.

Which insights to follow is the eternal dilemma.

Perhaps give allegiance for a period of time to a reputable source of wisdom (could be from the usual suspects but also could just be an old geezer down the street that seems to be sharp and always has a twinkle in his/her eye).

There are no set rules, but perhaps try out something new in life (a new belief or new approach), as a working hypothesis. If it doesn't pan out after an honest go at it, try something else. Discretion is crucial in such endeavors as only you can intuit what an "honest go at it" constitutes.

I wise teacher can really help, but listening to him or her requires any of us to find a measure of humility (many adults it seems aren't as open to wise mentoring as they might be).

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edebiyati medebiyati siktir et, gorusmedigin biri var galiba senin.

BAsbakan Denilen, sana mesaj var.
"sira bana gelince benimle gorusecek"

Guler Sabanci, Rahmi Koc, bir durdurun, bunun icinde baska birsey var.

60.000 YTL soguk odemeli, 12.000 YTL sicak kart cekisi.

lutfen ya lutfen, 72.000 YTL YApi Kredi, GAranti ve Akbank'ta soguk odemeli, 12.000 YTL sicak kart cekisi. lutfen ya.

benim devlet kapilardan gecmem uzun suruyor, para ve zaman harciyorum. bir geliverin bir kapi aciverin. kime gidecegim de belli degil.

RAhmi Koc, ne yaptiginizi bir aciklayin. sirketlerinizi duzeneklerinizi bir gosterin.

Cagdas Yasam Degirmendere 1999, 2000 Haydarpasa Hastane, 2001 MArmara PAtent. Israil aciklasin ya.

gidip Cekirge Karakolu'na basvuracagim. ve orada oturacagim. BAsbakan Denilen gelsin. bsimdi dolmusa biniyorum.

yahu bir sorgulayin ya, bir aciklama izin verin ya, bankada yaptirilan borcumu kapatin ya.

kim ne ile karistirdi beni? kim ile karistirildim, yahu beni serbest birakin, bari bileyim ya.

neden Hukumet ne yaptigini aciklamiyor BAsbakan Denilen! Erbilli Dogramaci, Yasar Buyukanit, Oktay Eksi, Suleyman Demirel, bir kisiyim yahu bir kisi. hapse atin daha iyiydi be.

KArl Rove ve Vatikan neden bugun Muhammed Paul diyor da benim aciklamalarima tesekkur etmiyor!?

Guler SAbanci, sizin yaptiklarinizdan cok daha otesini yapacak VAtikan gucleri var burada, neden bir kisinin ustune bu kadar gittiniz!

yahu Turk SAnat Muzigi guftelerine de bir iki virgul atsaniz courier new ile dumduz cikiyor. neden sastiniz!?

Williams Bush, i offer a database of what children see at nights. i offer a database of what elders have recollected uptoday at nights.

beni serbest birakin! Guler Sabanci Rahmi Koc, kralice ile ne ettiniz! Hukumete, Rusya'ya VAtikan'a karsi neler hazirlkadiniz. yahu bir aciklayin ve beni serbest birakin.

yahu ben bir kisiyim, neden bu kadar ustume geliyorsunuz ya. borcumu kapatin ya.

israil, 1994 yilindan itibaren Ankara'da olanlari bilmek istiyorum. cep telefonlari ile olanlari duyurmanizi istiyorum.

cok fena gurur ettim, borcumu kapatmadan kimse ile gorusmem, Bursa'dan da bir adim disari atmam. Vodafone ozur dileyecek, Turkcell ozur dileyecek. BAsbakan Denilen, icisleri bakani ozur dileyecek. en azindan ogrenmdiklerinde biz baska biliyormusuz kusura bakma desinler yeter.

and Williams Bush, You two with Viladimir Putin go to fishing, as does Peter. so please update the local and global structure of wisdom according to today's agreement.

i may forgive BArtholomoes if he explains his relations, he shall come to Bursa to visit me, clothless.

i want to know all about the Vatican, RAhmi Koc, YAsar Buyukanit, Aydin Dogan, Hurriyet, Milliyet, Aziz Yildirim, and Avea. i want to know my military and university cirriculum vitae.

BAsbakan, Milli Egitim Bakanliginin karsisinda Cumhuriyet Ankara subesi Mustafa BAlbay, 1992 Yeniyuzyil KArum Ankara Temsilcisi ve hacettepe bolum baskani OSYM baskani arasindaki baglantiyi arastirin lutfen. biri bana aciklasin. Kraliceden ve Erbilli'den itibaren biri bana aciklasin.

borcumu odeyip beni serbest birakin.

Bursa is under the influence of Russia, maybe longer than Sputnik launched, maybe because of Sophia and the mountain, after Osethia and Sycthe civilization.

Peg&Place,

it is hard in this country to have news and uptodate versions of knowledge.

thank You, for dry cloths.
nowadays here it is raining all of a sudden much.

is the rock of peter "stone of philosophy"?
is it boron mineral?

Williams Bush,
Yah in Book of Dead is a planet.

may i learn which planets have come closer in these 35 years? Yah and water well, the tree on top of the rocky mountain and Yah and stars, these two have been in these 35 years.

the fire in front of the tents and the rod, during sunlight daily life and "night" time, it is after 2000.

"To put God to the test has always been fatal for men"

Mind so much if we ain't so cowed by Christians and Republicans, kthxbai.

To put God to the test has always been fatal for men. Even Jesus who "thought it not robbery to be equal with god" suffered the most brutal execution of His day. In God We Trust, a motto, is conveniently printed on currency, but the misinterpretation with tongue in cheek is, will God honor monetary values as divine grace when 2000 years ago it was already proven to be a false doctrine. Material wealth is not a sign of divine grace or favor whatsoever. The domain of the Spirit may strengthen and justify human acts in the path of righteousness, but the mere fact of material wealth is found in both just and unjust gain. We can't see the horse for the cart so to speak. Or, seeing a cart on a road may beg the question of the existence of the horse, but without the horse, the cart is not moved.

Children are most tragic of all victims of this game of hide and seek. When asked where milk came from, many city children replied, "The grocery store."

I personally understand that Hinduism is an ancient wisdom religion that uses polytheism and myth to convey the truth. This is not the real problem in real life. Real life negotiates a multitude of facts. Mental life negotiates a multitude of abstracts that point to the multitude of facts by association. However, aliasing reality and then re-aliasing the same reality bt aliasing the alias of reality becomes a tangled mass of confusion mixed in with deliberate deception. It is here that we begin to see the dimming glimmer of truth as it descends into the murky mud of madness.

And, Garyd, it's one of the great and forgotten ironies of the Depression era that one of the biggest influences on our social policy was a fiscally-conservative government screwing the veterans of WWI out of what they were promised, and insisted upon doing so when they were desperate enough to set up a tent city to demand their due.

Current troops, likely expecting similar promises, did eventually, err, 'break up the unlawful protest' but it was important.

Bush's administration and Bush's war are doing the same things in the name of 'small government.'

They conflate 'Support Our Troops' with 'Support This War' but call it 'unpatriotic' to question their actively-screwing the troops and their families.

Have to say, I'm *not* seeing so many yellow ribbons on cars these days.

But the scars remain.

Maybe the 'troops' ought to cram into a 'free speech zone' somewhere out of sight like their graves.

"being poor means much different for a healer, doesnt it?"

Certainly does.

" what i think nowadays is who should be the authority on Earth, Peterson or Matthias?"

I have to admit that if it ever occurred to me anyone should be 'authority on Earth' in the first place, whoever those people are never came up on the short list.

" i the church is on the rock of Peter, then Russia shall be the authority."

I think you're mistaking Peter The Great with someone else, associated with some rock.

" Bartholomeos was not approved by Russia, he was illegal in Turkey."

"are Russians permitted in tours to visit Ephesus and Didimus? or only Istanbul and Antalya"

Ephesus went to swamp shortly after they looted the marble of the Artemision for the Hagia Sophia and let the port silt up.

It's possible to privately-arrange transport to that place, and see what's left of the ruin, but bring insect repellent, and prepare to be unimpressed if it was never sacred to you. You may hear there the cries of 'Give us Our Diana!'

Somehow, I never figured Russia was the problem, there.

Or ...leave it to those who remember.

being poor means much different for a healer, doesnt it? what i think nowadays is who should be the authority on Earth, Peterson or Matthias? i the church is on the rock of Peter, then Russia shall be the authority. Bartholomeos was not approved by Russia, he was illegal in Turkey.

are Russians permitted in tours to visit Ephesus and Didimus? or only Istanbul and Antalya?

Yeah, Massachusetts, Ryan. All of us from there are glued to the Worker's Vanguard. Why, they call it the 'People's Republic Of Cambridge... Cause they actually considered not doing away with rent control. Commies.

The 'invisible hand of the unrestrained market' isn't the 'Hand Of An Omnibenevolent God,' preaching the Ultimate Virtue Of Anything We Call Capitalism, Protecting Us From The Horrible Sin Of Anything We Can Cast As Evil godless Communism.'

Though some might tell you differently.

These are *systems of management,* each with their strengths and flaws, not supplementary *religions to be sworn to, with their appointed authorities and evil heretics to be scorned and driven from the village.*

We have plenty of resources to organize better. Saying, 'The Big Money is Good. The Big Money Serves All, The Big Money Is Never To be Questioned or Restrained' is how we have third-world problems in the cities of an embarassingly-wealthy nation.

It's time for some sober maturity about it, not paranoia about Marxist (Jews) in Hollywood, subtly convincing people that wealth and violence are the only things to emulate, in that sneaky Commie way...

We've done that dance before. It wasn't our best hour. Good night and good luck.

Athena,

Don't forget the Unversities. And Hollywood. There's plenty of Marxists there.

Some say Massachusetts, too, but I am a bit skeptical. They might just be their own particular kind of crazy there, too. Lol. (No offense Massachusettsers - love ya!)

"Does it make sense for a multi-millionaire to preach to the poor about accepting their poverty with an "expansion of consciousness"?"

He said, "awareness," which in this case was maybe a bit more on a practical level as well as a spiritual one, and I mean spiritual in the sense of living, rather than piety and displacing the circumstance onto senses of eternal reward:

Awareness of things like your own needs and wants and personal narratives and even vulnerabilities can go a long way... One of the ways the recent economy and policies really screwed a lot of people was... the rich used the media they own to convince a lot of people who couldn't afford to that ever-expanding consumption meant prosperity, so run up the credit card bills, go to predatory lenders and buy that car: specifically, they sold the notion that buying a home on one of those loans was the only way to go, ....at the peak of the housing bubble, when home values were *very unlikely* to go up further, (but interest rates were) ..Result: a lot of people on the cusp of doing fairly well for themselves ended up out years of work, in debt up to their eyebrows, and the banks get the homes back. (Of course, this happened so many times that the currency tanked and the banks ended up with a lot of property that's not worth so much, but that's OK, the government that repealed laws against *usury* will give them the billions they 'can't afford' to help the poor get housing directly... to preserve the corporate bottom lines.

Awareness of things like that can go a *long* way.

Particularly when it comes to things like what policies and candiidates to support.

Awareness of one's self and real needs and capabilities *certainly* can make living on the lower end of the economy more content, without being prey to unrealistic expectations and pitches. When we're less-than-self-aware, often this leaves 'holes' in our lives, which holes someone is always out there willing to sell you something that purports to 'fill' them, but it's generally, of course, a poor substitute.

If one's repressed sexually, then they'll use sex to sell this or that product, if one's got low self-esteem, maybe it's a car or expensive clothes, hate your job? Fancier video game or bigger TV to get lost in or something...it doesn't work, for long, anyway, then a church sells you the guilt over the wastefulness or selfishness of the purchase, the media sells you guilt for not being richer, and next paycheck, you end up trying to buy something else to feel better.

Guess who wins there. Not generally the poor.

Being more 'aware' may not increase the bottom line, but it can help keep one afloat, and save resources as well as money and energy for the important things in life, that are between people, and between our lives and our selves.

On the positive side, being a little more self-aware also can mean getting the most out of doing a little something nice for one's self or someone else.... and being unconflicted about it.

Basically, that can be just about making better decisions. Being less helpless about this often-bewildering modern life. It's of value.

Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mahatma Gandhi and other holy men identified with the poor by living like them. Their spiritual message was authentic and powerful because they spoke about a reality they lived. Does it make sense for a multi-millionaire to preach to the poor about accepting their poverty with an "expansion of consciousness"?

James 2:14-26 NIV

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Another idea sold to the harried-and-badly-nourished.

That exercise costs money and is for richer people.

Certainly, people scraping by in one form or another-not-involving-balanced-physical-labor may be short on the *time:* if you're poor and have a body that can run lean, you may in fact be able to walk everywhere, but there has to be a reason, (Especially if you need to find the calories where you're going or along the way to be able to get *home,* ) and it takes *time* that people with kids or a crappy-but-regular-job may not have.

Fact is, George P, it's very easy for people from a more affluent lifestyle to figure an overweight poor person must be 'fat and lazy,' but if you haven't been through extended poor nutrition, or are currently subject to it and have a million other things to worry about, just how much that poor nutrition can even affect the thought process. Most people aren't extensively-aware of their own bodies and minds in that way. I *was,* somewhat, and there wasn't always much I could do about it.

In this society, a lot of folks just try to eat what's considered 'good,' (ie 'satisfying,' or what they can get, or what gets them through the next night... If you're not someone who can live on rice and beans, as many Westerners aren't, you may or may not start to notice a loss of mental or physical acuity, or other things that can lead to poorer health. I've always tended to anorexia rather than overeating, too, and for me it was always about making sure to eat enough wherever possible, and conserve energy when there aren't good odds on that.

It's one reason why I am so against the notion of people having to pray for their suppers so some richer people can feel charitable or 'evangelical.' Like they're 'winning souls' by making sure people are badly-nourished, dangling a little food or support in front of them, then trying to get em to abase themselves or sign on some spiritual 'dotted line,' ...when they *ain't thinking straight.*

'Fasting' (or de-facto fasting by living mostly on sugar and Minute Rice, say) may in fact open people to spiritual experiences, but it also clouds *practical* thought and can make people impressionable, whether that's to advertising for a religion or a bag of off-brand Doritos.

" George P.:

"In this country, by "poor" I'm assuming you're speaking of those who lack the ambition to better themselves financially"

You do realize, of course, that in an almost-unrestrainedly-competitive system, 'Everyone being 'ambitious'' wouldn't change the reality that a lot of people have to 'lose' for anyone to 'win?'

" yet still seem to find themselves 20-50 pounds or more overweight? A definition would be useful."

I seem to have to point out often, that healthier food tends to be more expensive, especially if you're spending most of your effort just trying to get by. The cheaper food is the sugars and trans fats, and a lot of poor folks have to rely on such profitable-but-full-of-empty calories fare just to get through a day. Human bodies aren't really *made* for this.

I benefit greatly from your words but I continue to find it hard to remain open minded to the many comments posted here by the fearful souls barred in deep levels and many layers of confusion. The fact that they upset me is a note for me to study and a task I must learn to move beyond.

I should be happy that for some unknown reason they keep coming back to read your work and through some unconscious acceptance perhaps they may change their narrow mindedness and actually expand there hearts and souls.

Now as for this article, I must agree with your cleverly put suggestion to focus awareness of Soul as the change and not just the idea of money for the rich or the poor. Evolutionary movements of self into reverence for life is what I feel you are saying and I deeply agree.

A man's spirit is not valued based on money and his soul could careless, it is his heart that longs for love which cost nothing. I wish love upon all souls. I am poor and have even been poorer than today but a good soul is not measured on money nor is happiness. This is what I feel you also believe and I thank you for reminding us all.

Thank you for your continued work and excuse my withdrawal to read other comments listed on this site. My understanding of the fear these souls express still must be studied before I embrace the ones who feel compelled to continue in expressing there displeasure of your truths. I wish not to judge and look forward to my evolution with unwavering divine love for all souls.

Sincerely,
~raz

Have faith and look to the East, the son is rising. The Divine is bringing into alingment and building the framework for full scale divine intervention.

http://Buddha.me

A major solution to poverty and hunger is Amaranth and Surface soil remineralization.

Like some have mentioned rather than talking and praying about it, it is time to do something real.

It seems the Post's On Religion Forum lacks balance. How about a few columnist a little more familiar with the upside of religion and the principles taught therein? Or just be honest and rename the forum 'On Faith Bashing'.

And now to {j}{o}{s}{e}{v}{z}{dot}Us

Perhaps you could post something that does not look like the ramblings of a lunatic in the future? Something relevant to the current conversation?

Marxists? Do they still exist?

Oh yeah... Cuba. I don't count North Korea, because they're their own special brand of crazy.

Deeprock,

In this country, by "poor" I'm assuming you're speaking of those who lack the ambition to better themselves financially yet still seem to find themselves 20-50 pounds or more overweight? A definition would be useful.
Also, the only true "tools" I was able to identify from reading this article would be those who buy your books, CDs, and pay for your lectures.

Ignored??? 2/3rd of the federal budget of the US is spent on social programs. And thanks to unfunded federal mandates much of state local and county expenditures also go for social expenditures.

Unfortunately, the tools that this con-man sells to the poor is the same he sells to rest of us - himself, his books and lectures.

This guy is a spin off of the notorious con-man, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He's out to flatter your ego and drain your wallet and that's it.

As far as "tools" for spiritual growth, they're all free - Christian prayer... be it the Our Father, Hail Mary, Rosary, Divine Mercy, devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, etc.

Put this Hindu - New Age con man out of business for good.

Dr. Chopra,

I agree with a good deal of what you said, but the philosophical underpinnings of it I question.

The equality of souls, for instance, is a uniquely Christian concept. Historically speaking, no religious or philosophical system has even considered such a thing, except those derived from Christian dogma. It certainly cannot be derived from the concept of karma, for instance, from which the caste system naturally develops.

For that matter, the ancient world was astounded by Christian behavior: rich and poor did mingle together, without regard to class. We see this recounted in the earliest days of the Church, in her earliest writings, Acts of the Apostles and St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, for instance. We see it in the lives of the early saints: while awaiting execution, the noblewoman Perpetua tenderly cared for her pregnant slave, Felicity, to the shock of their jailors. In the Christian system, a butcher's son (Thomas Wolsey) can rise to become Cardinal and Lord Chancellor of England. The Christian system, without pretending that differences between rich and poor are illusory, nonetheless sees them as secondary to the common dignity of human beings and the fellowship of those baptised into Christ. Such a system gently militates against gross economic disparity, while allowing economic variation, because one is simply unwilling to watch one's brother or sister starve in a gutter. There is no need for ideology, forcible repropriation of property, etc., because we naturally share with those we love, with our kin.

God grant that we Christians truly live as we have been taught by our blessed Lord.

Faith/hope in an almighty in times of crisis may comfort some, but it actually does nothing about the crisis itself.
Praying and waiting for God to lift you up out of poverty is a waste of time if you actually want your earthly plight to be improved... the impoverished have been wailing away to god for centuries to pull them from their plight, but he doesn't seem to take heed very often at all... Perhaps poverty is a gift from god, a test of faith... a privilege perhaps... in that case why bother the government for solutions to a spiritual fate? Who are we to impose or interfere?

Religion and The Poor:

Brought brought up in NYC, during the depression, Marxism just
could not get a serious foothold,among the poor , because of
religion being a personal sustaining aid. Marxism and Socialism's
approach to the poor was ridicule; their objective, transference
from independent self-direction to one of directed control.

During recent time Marxism and aggressive Socialism have been
submerged for a composite program of control, using labels of,
Liberalism, Neo-conservatism and Libertarianism. The basic
platform of the three is ridicule of the American folk tradition of
God and Country. If a schematic were drawn the path would lead
to the Federalists of early 19th century, which stressed an elite
rule.

Absurd. You would think not if you were to follow the money
trail of wealth, and the kindred interplay. Take the Senate
Banking Committee and Wall Street political contributions;
and the lack of regulation there. You would find that traditional Democrats and Republicans are in the minority. And now we
have Citi-group .. Goldman-Sacks .. J P Morgan Chase .. Bear
Stearns .. ad infinitum .. all an elite closed society of control.

Yonkers, New York
07 August 2008

To set the subject of poverty in America in proper context, fully some 30 million Americans, out of a total population of 300 million, find themselves below the poverty line. They are wallowing in chronic and dire poverty, bereft of even the bare necessities that make human life bearable if not sustainable.

The other point is that countless Americans who before President George W. Bush took the reigns of power in America, some seven and a half years back, had clung to the lower ranks of the middle classes,rather tenuously, but have now lost their footing and slid down the economic ladder down below and joined the ranks of the poor.

Given the economic and financial crises that now grip these United States, impacting practically all, except probably the top 1%, the richest Americans who have benefited immensely from Mr. Bush's obscene tax cuts, it is probable that millions more Americans are bound to get caught in the clutches of poverty.

But the poor, who are true believers, have one unchageable consolation. Jesus Christ will not abandon them. Jesus Christ has given them the iron-clad assurance that they have prior if not exclusive access to a place called "heaven," a place where they won't have to worry about where their next meal will come from. They will be fed, clothed, and sheltered--properly.

And what about the super rich Americans?

Jesus Christ reminds them, pointedly, that "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for the rich to enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"--or words to that effect in the Christian bible.

Soounds like a scary prospect to me.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

One way to start acting is demand a *living* minimum wage, like Sierra mentioned. Some people seem to think that it's OK for some jobs not to pay a living wage: it's not OK, it's cruel.

Read "Beyond the Mountaintop: King's Prescription for Poverty" to learn more about how to eliminate the cycle of poverty. Our minimum wage now is actually worth less than the minimum wage of the late 1960's.

And the Lord continued…..

One other thing your religious leaders have deceived you in my name. They say to pray for things and sit home passive. On the contrary I am the all knowing, the omniscient. I know what you need and want before you even think it! In fact I know what you need better than you do. Do not pray to me for things but form your intention in alignment with the divine intention, so that I might deliver to you.

So in prayer we focus our attention on the divine concept, all as one and one as all. Then we go out and make our voices heard to destroy the fictions that gives birth to the injustice and we stand in body so that they can feel our presence, my presence, and when they ask by whose authority do you come tell them “the truth is my authority”.

Dear Deepak, I had this strange line of thought that came last week and I just saved it but it seems fitting for this.

But first I will add Religion has been used to get people to accept poverty conditions. There is no reason to for anyone to live in poverty; all of God’s children should live in abundance. That any live in poverty is an abomination to the Lord. Furthermore that the Roman Catholic church hoards gold and wealth while children starve really tells us something about the nature of the individuals running this institution. Let us hope these individuals evolve. Yes sacrifice and some day in the future you will get great rewards in Heaven. No wonder so many of the well to do support religion. The

Let there be Heaven on Earth NOW! Thus the Lord saith

I actually do watch a little TV. I saw this thing on some untouchables that do this job nobody wants to do. Technically this job should be earning the highest wages, higher wages than a doctor for example.

If we put it into perspective we can see why. It's easy to go two weeks without a doctor if you know what to feed your body, and can, you can go decades without seeing a doctor. But try going two weeks without waste management.

It demonstrates the importance of waste management in society.

So the thought is we form the Untouchable Union.

Turn waste into Gold a genius idea.

Sounds like a divine plan to me.

I found this interesting ... the statement "poorest people in any society are the most vulnerable to economic anxiety. They are the least able to afford downturns and have almost no power to improve their lot through political leverage. " I don't agree with this completely, there are people in the lower middle class that are probably more vulnerable, as we can't get assistance from the government for anything we need. AND

The statement "Give the poorest people -- and everyone else -- the tools to expand their own awareness, and heartless questions about how it feels to be poor won't be necessary anymore." The tools are already out there, a lot are free, there isn't an excuse for anyone to think the tools aren't there. It's what you do with it that counts!

One might wonder if God has not come to answer their prayers.

There are a lot of applicable comments in the Can the Mystery of Consciousness Be Solved Objectively? IntetBlog Thread about the many being duped.

There is great effort to maintain the old consciousness and resistance to the new consciousness.

One of the reasons the poor stay poor is actually poor nutrition which impairs their brains and inhibits learning especially on a diet of cheap carbohydrates which blocks certain amino acids needed to form excitatory neurotransmitters in the brain. Another

The rich can drink water without Fluoride for example which the Nazi’s found to cause neurological impairment.

Maybe Moses will happen along soon to lead the people from bondage.

It also seems with the in the Internet censorship in the US and UK they are trying to treat people like mushrooms and keep them in the dark this subject is covered in the other thread I mentioned above with links.

One of them is about the censorship of Atheist and Paranormal Sites.

One might wonder if God has not come to answer their prayers.

There are a lot of applicable comments in the Can the Mystery of Consciousness Be Solved Objectively? IntetBlog Thread about the many being duped.

There is great effort to maintain the old consciousness and resistance to the new consciousness.

One of the reasons the poor stay poor is actually poor nutrition which impairs their brains and inhibits learning especially on a diet of cheap carbohydrates which blocks certain amino acids needed to form excitatory neurotransmitters in the brain. Another

The rich can drink water without Fluoride for example which the Nazi’s found to cause neurological impairment.

Maybe Moses will happen along soon to lead the people from bondage.

It also seems with the in the Internet censorship in the US and UK they are trying to treat people like mushrooms and keep them in the dark this subject is covered in the other thread I mentioned above with links.

One of them is about the censorship of Atheist and Paranormal Sites in England.

Chance writes: "How to create an effective economy is the million dollar question."

Good question! When everyone understands that we are all interdependent, all subjectively One, and when we learn to share, we will create a new culture based on sustainability, justice and love. An effective economy will be a result of this understanding and a part of this new culture. You cannot have one without the other. To start mechanically constructing a new economy out of ideas from the past is to spin wheels and end up in the same old rut.

The question is how and when will such a change take place? When will things get bad enough so that the majority of people will demand a new way of living, and who will provide the blueprint?

We must learn to share, or we will destroy ourselves and all life on this planet. It is as simple as that. And time is running out. http://www.justice4peace.org.

The poor that are able to work and have the motivation can however be helped by an effective economy. :) How to create an effective economy is the million dollar question.

Have you ever wondered why there are no uneducated atheists but there are billions of uneducated believers? Had the people of Israel been literate and educated when Jesus lived he would have never become the Son of God. There would never be a Christian faith. Had the people of Arabia been educated in the 7th century at the levels of the today's West Muhammad would have been executed for being a child molester, a bandit, a murderer and a slave owner although his blasphemy for claiming to have been the last prophet of God would have been forgiven.

Sierra sounds like a real hypocrite. Why do you even have a computer? Shouldn't you have used the 1k$ or so to support your neighbor instead? Get off your soapbox if you cannot practice what you preach.

Thanks very much Daniel for telling your own experience so candidly.

For a period of about two years when I was between the ages of 13 and 15, my widowed mother could not afford to buy me even a pair of then-very cheap Japanese 'canvas' shoes and it was a cousin of mine who gave me his pair of leather shoes that were twqo sizes smaller than my fit. They tore into my fleash every day as I walked two miles to school and back. I did very well in my studies and, from Africa, managed to come to Canada for studies up to the Ph.D. level. I went back to serve Africa's economc development and have now, after my retirement, come back to settle in Canada while my gynaecologist wife works in rural Canada where her services are sorely-needed and well-appreciated.

As a child, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd of Australia and his then-just-widowed mother were forced out of their farm when they could not repay debt and had to sleep in their run-down car for days, but they both persevered with hard work and his education, and he is now a Continental Supremo. In his recent Parliamentary speech on the accasion of winning a crucial vote of confidence, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh recalled how he grew up in a village without running water and electricty nd had to study at nights in the light of only one candle. I remember reading, many years back about IT genius Professor Reddy, collaborator of Apple Computers' Steven Jobs, how where he studied his mathematics in India, they did not even have a blackboard, and demonstrations of Pythagoras' Theorem were made by means of geometrical drawn in the sand with a stick. President Alejandro Toledo rose from the level of one son of a nine-children poor native-Indian family and worked as a shoe-shine boy before winning a scholarship to Yale and returned to his country to electorally topple an all-powerful, right-wing, Japanese-backed Alberto Fujimori and led his country on a pro-poor electoral platform. Unfortunately, unlike in the cases of Manmohan Singh and Kevin Rudd (where power has not corrupted them at least so far!) the temptations of office were too strong for him nd his family to resist and they succumbed to scandals when, in 2006, former President Alan Garcia staged a comeback.

I have found that the people who scream the loudest that they are stauch true believing Christians are the people who also scream the loudest to take any government aid to the poor away.

The God of Abraham mandated that we all share what we have with strangers, there was also a strict plan for giving aid, 1st take care of your house (family) then take care of your neighbours, then if you still had wealth after that then you reached out to those in your lands. We were also instructed how to give the poor an opportunity to help themselves so that they could feel like they had value and know they were worthy of God's love.

But then again, why would any modern day Christian do those things. The God of Abraham is not who they pray to, instead they pray to the gods of greed, selfishness, and ignorance.

Europe has a decent standard of living and a minimum wage people can actually live on. Prices are not outrageous, businesses make a fair profit, and I found my overall tax rate to be 5% less in Europe than it is here in the US. It would not kill our economy nor our country to have a living minimum wage. It would however, dig into the pockets of the greedy.

Anonymous wrote:
BeowulfthePolitician: "started out with literally nothing, only to achieve greatness"

Beowulf, you are clearly a master of Legend.

-----------------------

I submit Daniel's 1:54pm post as evidence.

BeowulfthePolitician: "started out with literally nothing, only to achieve greatness"

Beowulf, you are clearly a master of Legend.

"Having abandoned the welfare state"

The welfare state has certainly not been abandoned. However, the ordinary citizen has no influence over who gets the welfare. Only the rich get welfare today, because the poor are felt to only deserve subsistence, which maintains them as effective in the labor pool and reducing the cost of labor.

BTW...The Mormons do it right....
Help people help themselves...
www.providentliving.org

A liberal approach to solving the poverty Crisis: Since it is obviously the Rich's fault that the poor even exist, lets allow government to give the poor what they need, yea, get 'em hooked. We will provide for them by raising taxes on the rich and giving the proceeds to the poor. Hey look, now everyone is poor! Problem solved. News flash, this is the USA, anyone can succeed here. I know a High school drop out making 90k a year due to the fact that he decided to apply himself and take advantage of the opportunities in this great country. Usually the poor are just that because of drugs, alcohol or basic ignorance! You cannot make them be wealthy or even take basic care of themselves. There will ALWAYS be a class of poor people in every country. Just ask China and Russia.

Dear Chopra:

"Evolved consciousness" won't raise a poor person out of poverty. Ambition, Drive, Education, and Hard work will. There are too many people in this great nation that started out with literally nothing, only to achieve greatness. When it comes to poverty, "Shackles find only willing wrists." (-The Legend of Remo Williams.)

I was born poor, 2nd in a family with 9 children to religous parents who put more emphasis on God than education. I decided early on that I wanted to be different. I worked hard in underperforming schools and now am an attorney with a good job and financial security.

While many suffer in America and each of us must do more to help, the reason that most people in this country suffer from poverty are the choices they make every day. Most people have the ability to put themselves in a position to earn a decent wage.

Most of my brothers and sisters said that school wasn't for them and did other things. Most of them look with envy at my ability to go on a vacation each year and not worry about my car breaking down. Yet while I was spending years working two jobs and going to school at the same time, they were working and spending what they made.

It is time that the middle and lower classes stop looking at academic achievement as a nerdy and unpopular thing. We must tell our children that if they want a comfortable life they will have to work for it and prepare themselves so that someone will desire their skills enough to pay them good money for them. In other words we must encourage other to create wealth instead of relying on others to give some to them.

This article mentioned that school janitors make a poverty wage. Well of course they do, we could pay a college student to do that work for slightly more than minimum wage. It is ok to have jobs that don't pay well, there are young people to work those while they are being educated. People need to realize that those jobs will not provide for a family long term and they need to learn skills that will get them a job that will.

"There will always be hierarchy in society...who must eventually become corrupt in accordance with the nature of man."

This is why we select our own government. These effects are manageable if everyone understands the issues and works together to prevent tragedies. Our education system is failing us today by not informing citizens of the issues and how democracy works to keep them safe. In fact, democracy is widely derided as being ineffective. This plays directly into the hands of "tyrants."

Kurt,

Yes, Marx showed how capitalism worked with great clarity. And the Soviet Union showed how Marxism is just a badly structured version of capitalism, with all the capital in the hands of government officials. And China continues to show the worst side of capitalism - cronyism, corruption, and oppression.

There will always be hierarchy in society, and it will always be an opportunity for exploitation. The only answer I can see is limited government (and limited corporations). The people do have to rise up - and defend their liberties.

If anyone has the power to redistribute land and wealth artificially, then that person has the power to be a tyrant and oppressor. If the first tyrant is just and righteous, he can do good; but eventually, due to the nature of things, a tyrant will arise who cares nothing for the good of the people. Therefore, the best system allows no tyrant, since once a tyrant is installed, he can only be deposed with difficulty. That is why I say that we would do best to avoid Marxism - it cannot succeed without vesting inordinate power in a small group of individuals, who must eventually become corrupt in accordance with the nature of man.

DCP,

Let me own up and apologize.

What I wrote at 10:55 a.m. is utter nonsense and shoud be removed from this website.

MODERATOR, Please note and take appropriate action, please.

However, I have a question. When you write : " I always say that America's first welfare recipients were plantation owners: others do the work and a few collect the profits. This is not simply specific to America here and now. This oppressive relationship between the classes has existed in other nations and other times (think Egypt and the Hebrews).", am I right in drawing a parallel with the argument of a significant proportion of native Zimbabweans that the 5% white colonizers who have occupied by stealth over 70% of the most fertile land of their country are the first welfare recipients and there is a good case for land redistribution, also by stealth?

That is the drama that has been building up in that country for the past 30 years and that is unfolding in that country. But, in America as in Egypt and among the Hebrews, the reality is more complex than that. The same econmists that you cite (I am one of them) will also argue that technological innovation and 'economies of scale' often contribute much more to wealth creation than labour and ownership of land.

And about religion being the opiate of the people, that is religion being construed as "Blessed are the meek, who will inherit the Kingdom Come". Which is not the same as religion construed as the spirituality that helps us keep our sanity when, our son having rushed out to test the latest model sports car that we just bought him, we learn that he has met with a devastating accident and succumbed to the bodily burns that have made him unrecognisable amidst the rubble of the car crash.

it may be possible...that men and women all over the world sit in church every sunday give thier money to the church... and never realized that it is them that insist that things be more expensive for the poor... thye lie to themsleves and say it is neccessary to punish those who have committed no crime.. yet they are punished... and for thier own good.. you see.... they need to learn the lesson to take from the needy.....this is what the poor do not them selves do... in our world it is actually the poor who help the rest... so please mr pretend busisessman or woman or worker of a company that does the dirty work where you ... yourself dont see it... don't pretend your something your not and get off your donkey and quit farming the miserery of the poor and calling it ......bussinesss...if there were no lazy people who wanted to live off peieces of paper that say they can collect monney and do no work there would be no poor...

Marx described capitalism with great clarity. He defined it and showed how it worked. Capitalists the world over have used this as a precise blue print for exploiting the mass of humanity. Success of capitalism is proven by the large numbers of people who are maintained at a subsistence level to support the few who prosper beyond most peoples's wildest dreams. We were warned that Marxism was a threat to humanity and this is the threat manifest. Capitalists are as devoutly Marxists as any religious fanatic, and today they exult in the failure of Marx prediction that the masses would recognize their enforced condition and refuse it.

Georgiason, since you consider the poor to be such a nuisance. I want you to consider this. If we were to ship all of this country's poor to another location on the globe (and we couldn't employ off-shore slave labor), we would have to create another underclass from a portion of the middle and upper classes left behind. Why? No more cheap food. Everyone will want fair pay for their goods and services. And you think housing is expensive now. Just think how expensive it will be your bricklayers start getting paid as much as computer programmers because that's what they used to be. And forget dining out or cheap get-aways. Don't even think about forgetting lunch at home since McDs workers will be getting $20 an hour for their labor. And the hope of cheaper gas...Gone!! Gas attendants will be selling gas the same way they used to sell Armani suits. So don't rag on the poor for accepting $100 handouts, especially when the rich get $100 million handouts.

I'm sorry, Roy, I don't have any lemmings to control. Where do I sign up to get them?

To Gene, yes, I agree each of us has a responsibilty to give out of what we have. That's why I personally give away an eighth of my income to charity. Now if only I didn't have to pay 15% to the government, then maybe I could build up enough capital to give away more. That would be an ideal life to me, to spend half my time in studies, and half my time helping the poor realize their dreams.

So I'm not a very good poster child for the conservative scrooge. Socialism is bad for society and the economy, which means it is bad for the poor. As to why it is bad, there is not room for an economics lesson here, but just look around at countries more socialist than we are and the lessons will become apparent.

The reason I mentioned Marxists is because Mr. Chopra brought it up - with a positive spin, as though the social engineers gave a whit about the welfare of the poor. They just want a class of uneducated brutes that they can dupe into supporting whatever pro-government (and therefore pro-rich) policy they want to implement.

Sorry I'm not a fount of New Age gobbledy-gook. I'm not interested in platitudes that make everyone feel better but don't help anybody.

For some reason the quote I chose didn't come up. It was:

As many economists point out, the poor subsidize America's enviable lifestyle. Every underpaid hotel maid, McDonald's cook, migrant farm worker, and school janitor living below the poverty line is contributing money to the rest of us. Without the poor there would be no American dream, and yet they are the least likely to benefit from it.

>

I couldn't have said it better myself. I am going to keep this quote in my files. This article is a lot more respectable than the one Jacoby wrote about the same subject. I always say that America's first welfare recipients were plantation owners: others do the work and a few collect the profits. This is not simply specific to America here and now. This oppressive relationship between the classes has existed in other nations and other times (think Egypt and the Hebrews).

The problem is equality: nobody wants it. People would rather be superior not taking into consideration that one has to make others inferior in order to become superior. Neither do they take into consideration the anxieties they cause for those whom they have classified as inferior. (or maybe they do and the human heart is just that wicked.)

ooohhhh gahhhhh boooogahh!

"The Marists"

"The Socialists"

"The Communists"

"The gays"

"The Mexicans"

"The liberals"

"The democrats"

The neochristians need a common enemy to control their lemmings with fear. Like their neocon political counterparts, they are living is the past and dredge up enemies, living or dead, to put fear into the hearts of the uneducated.

God, grant Your judgments to the king
and Your righteousness to the king's son
. . . may all kings bow to him,
all nations serve him.
For he saves the needy man pleading,
and the lowly who has none to help him.
He pities the poor and the needy,
and the lives of the needy he rescues. (Psalm 72, passim)

If in Biblical times the king was obliged to pity and rescue the poor, it is no less true that governments today are charged with the same responsibility. That's not socialism. It is the brotherhood of man.

And that responsibility falls on each of us individually.
[The just man] disperses, he gives to the needy,
his righteousness stands forever. (Psalm 112: 9)

Sometimes comments on this website are actually worthwhile in helping me to see the world from different perspectives. Too bad it also appears that most people here, just want to argue, posting their own narrow ideas and points of view, completely unable to see through the eyes and experiences of others.

What would "real change" involve? Bigger donations, more charity giving to "worthy" organizations? Consider that donating has not changed the basic dynamic of rich vs poor at all. Trillions of dollars have been spent to combat poverty in the US, and what have we got?

Real change, I submit, involves a change in relationship between and among people at all levels. We are not all "the same", nor should we be. We all have different skills, talents etc. and if we are to be rich, secure and successful in the US today, we had better have had the education and skills to develop those talents which pay big time. Otherwise, we are left vulnerable to the whims and usually self serving generosity of others.

Real change would provide for the basic necessities of life (nourishing food, safe shelter, adequate healthcare and all the education one needs) to everyone equally. And that would be everyone in the US and in every country in the world. It would involve sharing Earth's resources equally among all people. This is not an idealistic notion, but a practical, useful principle of social/economic interrelationship which provides real security, environmental healing and stability, and leaves individuals free to pursue their individual development and growth.

If it weren't for the New Deal, maybe the poor would still be respectable. Think about what made the poor respectable: family, commitment to integrity even in the midst of suffering, optimism, commitment to each other, faith in God.

Where are we now? Government handouts have reduced the need for hard work and reliance on family and friends. Government schools have debased and debauched the character and intellect of the poor, and have also done their utmost to quench the faith of the poor. Government failure to secure the border creates a sub-culture of illegality, secrecy and fear of authority, not to mention that they would not be needed if it were not for social welfare. Government enforcement actions have disproportionately removed black men from their families, leaving their children more vulnerable to drugs and gangs.

Who has failed the poor? We have, by electing socialists who believe the government can 'the poor'. These stingy politicians won't give their own time and money, but they'll spend taxpayer money till the country goes broke. Oh, and who pays for this largesse? Overwhelmingly, the poor and middle classes. What a farce.

I say get rid of the Marxists, even the besmirched - if they have their way, there will be nothing but the debased poor, and all of us who are not gazillionaires will belong to that class, living depressed, deprived lives with no hope of escape. I say that it's time for a return to America's tradition individualism and self-reliance. Then, if we must be poor, at least we can be respectable.

We have to move beyond idealism at this point. In this consumer culture, we cannot rest on idealism alone. With the best and brightest focusing much of their intentions on preserving the profit margins of their employers, the rest of us must be more conscious of the way we use our dollars.

With the historic racist and classist infastructure still in play, we must be more careful with our choices. Responsibility in every action.

We cannot afford to speak in generalities. One either wants change or they do not. If you do, then work to make your dollars do the talking. No excuses. And not just in charitable contributions, but by taking an active approach to ensure that any investing you do is in organizations that have a proven track record of responsibility. Do not support organizations that exploit their workers - here or abroad - just for convenience or just to bolster your own economic security.

If you are not below the poverty line yourself, then you have the luxury to make different decisions. Do it.

It is no longer enough to give your pocket change. Its time for real change.

What is this new age nonsense? Please speak and write in laymen's English.

Are you saying poor are poor because they are too religious?

In any case, America does give you the best chance to get out of poverty than any other place. Education, plenty of jobs and business opportunities.

"Expand their own awareness?"
They're aware, Dee. New-agey nonsense from books sold in glorified magazine-rack latte bars don't mean squat.

Yes, there is a new idea which can bridge the gap between rich and poor....it is the principle of sharing, presented by Maitreya. It is, he says, the only solution to man's problems and that all else has been tried and failed. Of course, if we are not serious about solving our really critical problems, we won't want to investigate what the principle of sharing might mean, but how much more serious to those problems need to be before we get serious.

Sharing is, Maitreya says, divine. By sharing, you recognize God in your brother. So it is not an imposed doctrine or legislation. It is not communism...but in a sense is true Christianity. The principle of sharing is included in all the sacred texts as a matter of course in human relationships. See:
http://www.justice4peace.org.

One can only say, "Amen." It's a measure of the failure of modern-day Christianity that probably 99% of all the putative "Christians" who will attend church this Sunday would be absolutely baffled by the statement that the poor subsidize their lifestyles, when every "Christian" knows that it's those poor welfare cheats that are taking the taxpayers' money and producing our budget deficits.