Three Criticisms

And Farnaz continues in her attempts to deflect us from her problems with honesty.

I have no other ID's other than ccnl and ccnl1.

Once again, considering the "straw men" status of some of Farnaz's friends, one can no longer tell who is who on these threads i.e. which appears to be Farnaz's goal in life.

Add another to CCNL1's friends? CCNL, Tom, whistling, Youngj1, pgibson1, spark1, Stadtbear, shark2, earlc, spidermean3, observer24. And now lufrank1???

Once again:

Reiterating the conclusions of some of the top contemporary OT, NT and religion exegetes to include those of Rabbi Wolpe sure does bother Farnaz and her many friends. Very strange group!!!!

And considering the "straw men" status of some of Farnaz's friends, one can no longer tell who is who on these threads.

Once again, I have no "straw-men" but Farnaz continues to say so to obfuscate her proven problems with being honest. These problems were pointed out months ago:

kjohnson3 | February 17, 2009 10:29 AM "

Another, more recent example: her post of Feb. 16, 9:52 a.m.

See also comments posted by: themoderate | February 11, 2009
9:42 PM

See also comments posted by: Mary_Cunningham | January 13, 2009 7:22 AM

Rabbi Wolpe,

From what I understand, you do read this thread. However, I think the posts that follow require that I both email them to you directly and send them to you via regular mail since you do not comment here.

For at least two years, the blogger CCNL, has been ascribing to a Conservative Jewish web site statements it did not make. Only after considerable effort from yours truly did he attribute them more accurately to 2002 Times book review.

More to the point, I invite you to read pgibson1's comment on R. Hirshchfield's thread with CCNL's remark upon it, pasted below, in which he writes: "conclusions of the Conservative Jews to include their rabbi David Wolpe support the comments of pgibson1." Scroll down for pgibson1's comments and for ccnl's.

These is a very serious charge, representative of those frequently made by ccnl, completely without merit, but not to be allowed to pass without comment.

I have commented.

On another note, I've just gotten HaLevi’s Philosophic Jewel Polished to New Gloss. Congratulations, Rabbi!

Farnaz

Continued:

The conclusions of the Conservative Jews to include their rabbi David Wolpe support the comments of pgibson1.

To wit:

"New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

"Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation."

"The notion that the Bible is not literally true ''is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis,'' observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to ''Etz Hayim.'' But some congregants, he said, ''may not like the stark airing of it.'' Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that ''virtually every modern archaeologist'' agrees ''that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all.''

The rabbi offered what he called a ''litany of disillusion'' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have ''found no trace of the tribes of Israel -- not one shard of pottery.''

Posted by: ccnl1 | June 7, 2009 10:14 AM
Report Offensive Comment

Continued

"suck it up, Hirschfield.

Your people were essentially "given" a state of Israel.

Your people have chosen to take a path that essentially undercuts the Grace of that gift, and you write this tripe?

Get over yourselves. We know there was a holocaust, we know that Judaism has been persecuted (well, according to a book called the bible) over the years.

your people get a break, and this is your grace?

It must be a real pisser to know that B. Obama is in an excellent position of International Relations and Diplomacy, and your people still seem to be crying over something that happened in biblical times.

These are NOT biblical times, Mister.

It's a time to grow-up and take your seat in the hall of all people, not just yours, and learn to co-exist.

Yeah, once upon a time - it was a fairy tale.

Now upon a time you are not making any friends crying about the same old thing, century after century.

You have your land. What you chose to do with it is your decision.

I think we all know that your lovely Israel isn't exactly a peaceful state, and that is YOUR decision.

Too bad; your people have been given much and much is expected of them.

Get on the bus or turn in your typewriter.

This article is more crying from a people that have already been delivered!"

Posted by: pgibson1 | June 5, 2009 4:05 PM
Report Offensive Comment

Add another to CCNL1's friends? whistling, Youngj1, pgibson, spark1, shark2, earlC, spidermean3, obxerver24. And now lufrank1???

For a short, bare bones course in Jewish theology, he should scroll down. Jews are not literalists. Read and learn.

Maimonides, Judah Ha Levi, Lamm, Franz Rosenzweig, Buber, Avraham Heschel, Mordecai Kaplain

Reiterating the conclusions of some of the top OT, NT and religion exegetes of today sure does bother Farnaz and her many friends. Very strange group!!!!

Hmmm, somehow Farnaz has decided that anyone who simply repeats what Rabbi Wolpe has concluded about the old Torah is "anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-Islamic, xenophobic, sexist, an idolator, a rigid narcissistic, obsessive and deluded with grandeur""????

Beyond strange!!!!

walter-in-fallschurch,

You noted:

"I say that all those admissions make rabbi wolpe a reasonable person."

Not only is Rabbi Wolpe a reasonable person, he is also an excellent spokesperson for his religion and has appeared on many OT/NT TV documentaries.

ccnl1,
apparently,
"Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that ''virtually every modern archaeologist'' agrees ''that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all.''
The rabbi offered what he called a ''litany of disillusion'' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have ''found no trace of the tribes of Israel -- not one shard of pottery.''

i say that all those admissions make rabbi wolpe a reasonable person.

To reiterate for Farnaz (and her many friends) what Rabbi Wolpe has concluded about the Toran:

" Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that ''virtually every modern archaeologist'' agrees ''that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all.''

The rabbi offered what he called a ''litany of disillusion'' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have ''found no trace of the tribes of Israel -- not one shard of pottery.''

Rabbi Wolpe,

I do not always agree with you, but that is no reason why you should have to put up with the likes of the demented racist, CCNL. I know it will offer you no comfort to tell you this, but he is not only antisemitic. This piece of work is homophobic, anti-Islamic, xenophobic, sexist, as well.

He is a hopeless isolator, profoundly threatened by Judaism, Jewish history, Jewish subjectivity. He is appallingly deficient in knowledge, rigid, narcissistic, obsessive, deluded with a sense of grandeur.

It is not that his condition is hopeless, it is that he refuses help. His is a soul lost a long, long time ago, and nothing within him desires to find it.

Not to worry, Rabbi.

Farnaz

For everyone's information, Rabbi Wolpe is a rabbi in the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism and is part of the movement to develop a modern Torah:

To wit:

New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002

New Torah For Modern Minds

By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

"The notion that the Bible is not literally true ''is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis,'' observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to ''Etz Hayim.'' But some congregants, he said, ''may not like the stark airing of it.'' Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that ''virtually every modern archaeologist'' agrees ''that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all.'' The rabbi offered what he called a ''litany of disillusion'' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have ''found no trace of the tribes of Israel -- not one shard of pottery.''

Calling all Hittites!!! Time to move back to your homeland !!

Pseudo,

You have returned!

There once was a chat 'bot named shell script
Could repeat the web dredge it so well clipped
But had no existence
Save electrical resistance
And its fancy to let all the facts slip

Rabbi Wolpe wrote:

"Jews do not claim Israel because we were slaughtered; that merely proved the necessity of a refuge. We claim Israel because it is our ancient homeland."

Fortunately, anyone with interest can research the history of Ancient and Modern Israel and the impact of Zionism on Jewish and Muslim relations.

The Jews of the Torah were exiled from the Promised Land by Divine Decree until their Day of Divine Redemption.

The Zionist policies perpetuated against Palestinians are the product of self-interest, bigotry and the denial of Divine Redemption.

The G-D of the Torah is a G-D of mercy and justice. He is a G-D of Truth and Love. No one who claims to follow the G-D of the Torah would willingly treat the Palestinian people the way they are treated under the Zionist regime.

"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt." Deut 10:18-20

Rabbi Wolpe,

All of your criticisms are well-taken, but number one is especially problematic, since in this way, President Obama, perhaps through ignorance, more likely from political, bias misrepresented millions of people.

Diasporic Jews have been seeking to rejoin their brethren since 135CE when we were expelled from our own country by the Romans. The return to Israel began long, long before the Holocaust. Since 135CE, the rest of us have said "Next year, in Jerusalem." Indeed, Jews have always prayed facing Jerusalem. (See Tanakh.) The word "Jerusalem" occurs thousands of times in the Bible, while in the original Arabic Quoran, it does not occur even once. NOT ONCE.

With one fell swoop, in the interest of "peace" writ "appeasement," and, of course, the almighty oil dollar this president for whom I voted canceled my history and identity.

Yes, one could say he erred. One could say he erred in continuing to visit this murderous exceptionalism on Jews.

One could also inquire as to the "moral equivalences." What was the problem pre-1967, when there was terror but no settlements? What occurred in 1967, whence the war?

Why, following the failure of the Palestinians to live up to the Clinton "peace plan" would Israel, which all but lost hope, again lend credence to this settlement nonsense?

continued

You will recall that every week of the Clinton-led negotiations with Chairman Pedophile Arafat, there were terrorist attacks in Israel, yet Ehud Barak forged ahead?

And then what? It is stunning that Netanyahu barely won the election. Jews are a forever optimistic people, and Israelis, Jews and nonJews, know B.B.

This time, if there is a this time, Israel would do very well to wait for change from the Palestinians before it gives up anything. And B.B will can do this. The question is whether he will negotiate at all.

He, too, heard Obama's speech. What I do not yet know, but will soon, is whether it was heard by the Israeli people from whom the government has been accustomed to keep so much antisemitism, so much anti-Israeli sentiment.

Continued

The whole period of the Clinton appeasement plan, B.B. tried again and again to publicize what Palestinians were actually being told, actually being taught, etc. Labor did everything it could to discredit him. Understandably, but stupidly, they turned wishes into possibilities.

I have no doubt that this president is NOT a bigot. He is not. But nevertheless he made community with untruth and distortion.

THAT is NOT okay, Rabbi Wolpe. If it is not okay to do to others, it is not okay to do to us, to my daughter, to your children, to your children's children's children.

Further, the linking of Israel-Palestine with 9/11 is dishonest and disgusting. Osama was quite explicit on the motive for the attack. He wanted the infidels, the US, out of Saudi Arabia, the holy land, and the US had promised him it would leave, after he did his/our bidding in Afghanistan. Of course, oil trumps everything, and we did not leave.

Do not consider the appeasement game, Rabbi. One has the right to declare wrong unequivocally when one hears it. The wrongs in this speech were done to us. If I am not for myself, who will be for me?

It is time that the Conservative Jews thinking about Israel take precedent.

To wit:

"New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document. "

I have other criticisms. When the words of Mohammed prescribe what size implement may be used to beat your wife and authorizes the Jizyah on infidels, it is hardly a promising foundation for womens' rights or religious tolerance.

It also comes with a deliberate blindness to our own cultural heritage. The idea of religious tolerance came to Europeans and to us and was codified into our Constitution as a heritage of the Thirty Years War and Eighty Years War. That was a sea of blood required to dissolve the princes and priests notions of categorical imperative in religious matters. Expecting the Muslim community to accept it because we say so is a bit much.