Love Thy (Gay) Neighbor
He is the nicest right-wing evangelical powerhouse you've never heard of. Jim Daly grew up the last of five children in what anyone would call a broken home. His mother died when he was 10 and he lived with, in turn, a stepfather, a foster family, his own alcoholic father and his divorced brother. He came to Jesus in high school, under the guidance of a football coach. His recent memoir, "Finding Home," has barely made a dent on the best-seller lists. Nevertheless, in 2005, Daly got the job of president and CEO of Focus on the Family, and although he denies this, it's clear that he was picked to be the yin to James Dobson's yang. While Dobson continues to threaten in the press, Daly chats amiably with a reporter about the fall weather. He sticks to the hard line on policy issues—gay marriage is bad for families, he says—but his presentation is all soft edges. "I'm sure there are wonderful gay parents out there; there's a poster child for everything." If one of his boys turned out to be gay, he says, "I'd love him."
Is the presence of Daly at the head of what is arguably the country's most politically powerful conservative Christian group more evidence of a shift by evangelicals toward the center? Or is this alleged shift simply cosmetic? Events of the past few weeks offer contradictory evidence. On the one hand, you have Dobson, creating a furor with a New York Times op-ed warning Republicans to deliver a presidential candidate with the right values—or else. On the other, a handful of new books and studies show some movement centerward, at least on the question of tolerance toward homosexuals. According to a new study by the Barna Research Group, 80 percent of churchgoers between the ages of 16 and 29 believe that the term "anti-homosexual" describes Christianity, and they complain that they don't get enough guidance from their pastors in how to apply Christ's message of love to their gay friends. According to another study cited in "After the Baby Boomers" by Robert Wuthnow, young evangelicals have grown dramatically more tolerant of gays over the past 20 years on issues like teaching in schools.
It is undoubtedly getting much easier to find evangelicals with authentic Bible-belt credentials expressing love and support for their gay friends and neighbors. Gabe Lyons, an author of the Barna study, says he has spoken privately with Daly about his dream of starting a meaningful conversation between the nation's gay and Christian leaders "and not just spout off our views." On Good Friday this year, a pastor named Timmy Gibson from Olathe, Kans., took 15 parishioners to a mall in downtown Kansas City, where all of them held huge pink signs that read GOD LOVES GAYS. Students on a handful of evangelical campuses—Samford University and Eastern University, for example—are starting gay student groups, some without their administrations' approval.
On policy, though, evangelical conservatives on the whole aren't budging much—yet. According to a Pew study done in August, 81 percent of white evangelicals oppose gay marriage. "More and more sensible evangelicals would say that we're all sexually confused and that we're all sexually broken. And that therefore tolerance is in order," says Michael Cromartie of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C. "But tolerance doesn't mean approval. Across the board, people don't want marriage to be redefined, legally." This may change over the long term: the same Pew study shows that opposition to gay marriage is inching down among white evangelicals under 30 to 76 percent. John Green, a Pew analyst, surmises that for future generations this issue may be very much like divorce—an unwelcome fact of life. As Dobson heads into his final years, it is worth wondering whether his gentle No. 2 will be a man of decisive action or merely a more temperate relic of the past.
By
David Waters
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October 15, 2007; 9:51 AM ET
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The difference is that while your desire to murder may indeed be inborn, your acting on that desire causes harm to others. THAT is why murder is a crime.
Consenting adults acting on a same-sex attraction are harming no one.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | November 5, 2007 12:10 PM
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1. As science gradually uncovers the genetic basis for my temptation to kill, evagelicals and believers will generally need to come to grips with indications pointing to the conclusion that giving into the temptation to kill is not immoral, but part of God's plan for humanity. Or something like that.
2. Something tells me that if God had a problem with serial killers, He would have stopped making them a long time ago.
Posted by: Jeffrey Dahmer | October 30, 2007 11:11 PM
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SMOD
Posted by: SMOD | October 30, 2007 11:05 PM
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Two observations:
1. As science gradually uncovers more and more evidence of a biological basis for sexual orientation, evangelicals and believers generally will need to come to grips with indications pointing to the conclusion that homosexuality is neither a behavioral disorder nor a birth defect, but simply one part of God's plan for humanity.
2. Something tells me that if God had a problem with gay people He would have stopped making them a long time ago.
Posted by: k-mad | October 30, 2007 4:08 PM
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In a country based on secular values, why should the opinions of any religious leader influence a basically secular concern. Legal marriage has nothing to do with religious organizations in this country. What religious bodies recognize as marriage is up to them, what the state recognizes as legal marriage should have nothing to do with the first part of this sentence.
All of the developed world has come to terms with the basic justice of gay partnerships that are recognized by the secular state. Why is the US so far behind? As a Christian who happens to be gay I live daily with the bigotry of so called evangelical Christians imposing their views on my life. I had to go through extra steps to have my partner recognized as my legal representive in health issues, we can not take advantage of each other's pension or social security.
I just wish all the good Christian evangelicals would recognize religion's place in a secular society, which does not include making law.
What would happen if gays starting trying to dismantle hetrosexuals' couples previleged "rights"? We as a group haven't done that, we just want what is fair.
Posted by: pax58 | October 28, 2007 9:14 PM
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In a country based on secular values, why should the opinions of any religious leader influence a basically secular concern. Legal marriage has nothing to do with religious organizations in this country. What religious bodies recognize as marriage is up to them, what the state recognizes as legal marriage should have nothing to do with the first part of this sentence.
All of the developed world has come to terms with the basic justice of gay partnerships that are recognized by the secular state. Why is the US so far behind? As a Christian who happens to be gay I live daily with the bigotry of so called evangelical Christians imposing their views on my life. I had to go through extra steps to have my partner recognized as my legal representive in health issues, we can not take advantage of each other's pension or social security.
I just wish all the good Christian evangelicals would recognize religion's place in a secular society, which does not include making law.
What would happen if gays starting trying to dismantle hetrosexuals' couples previleged "rights"? We as a group haven't done that, we just want what is fair.
Posted by: pax58 | October 28, 2007 9:12 PM
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Dear Jesus,
Please bring back the Communists. The Communists were perfect scapegoats for Republicans and Christian extremists like the Mormons of Ezra Taft Benson. The Communists were mostly foreign and unseen. Americans didn't attack each other's differences to rally the mindless masses against a common enemy. They used the Communists.
Now, the Christian extremists and Republicans use the gays for the same purpose. Why else would they cherry pick scripture and gay-bash. They need a new common enemy, oh Lord. The Muslims may work as an alternative but Dobson, Haggard, Craig, Vitter, McCain, Romney, et. al. see more value in scapegoating the gays. Please, Jesus, bring back the 50', 60's and 70's when their enemy was foreign not domestic. Amen.
Posted by: Roy, Chiapas Mexico | October 28, 2007 7:51 PM
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Dear Jesus,
Please bring back the Communists. The Communists were perfect scapegoats for Republicans and Christian extremists like the Mormons of Ezra Taft Benson. The Communists were mostly foreign and unseen. Americans didn't attack each other's differences to rally the mindless masses against a common enemy. They used the Communists.
Now, the Christian extremists and Republicans use the gays for the same purpose. Why else would they cherry pick scripture and gay-bash. They need a new common enemy, oh Lord. The Muslims may work as an alternative but Dobson, Haggard, Craig, Vitter, McCain, Romney, et. al. see more value in scapegoating the gays. Please, Jesus, bring back the 50', 60's and 70's when their enemy was foreign not domestic. Amen.
Posted by: Roy, Chiapas Mexico | October 28, 2007 7:47 PM
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I don't think it matters what polls, ethics organizations, James Dobson, or Jim Daly think about gays or same-sex marriage. Gays must deal with Jesus who described "fornication" as "evil." (Mark 7:21-23). Fornication is any form of sex outside the marital bond between husband and wife. It is not intolerant to share with gays what Jesus said.
If one truly loves his gay neighbor, he will love him as such, but share with him the truth.
Posted by: Jim Black | October 21, 2007 7:06 PM
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In All Fairness...:
Please read this if you don't believe the gay lobby is trying to usurp parental rights. What do you make of this?
"http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/681145/posts"
I agree with you about I.D. - I don't think it should be taught. But neither should atheistic speculations about the origins of life. If one is taught, then both should be taught. Otherwise, neither.
I actually think this whole evolution brouhaha is a big nothing. Micro-evolution is compatible with religion, it's valuable life-saving science, and disputed by nobody. Macro-evolution is pure speculation, and pragmatically worthless from everybody's standpoint. If only atheists would keep their nonsensical origin-of-life religion out of the classroom, I'm sure evangelicals would be glad to reciprocate!
"I cannot FULLY choose how my children turn out. If one of my children is gay, I do not want my example to be shabby treatment of my fellow citizens who are gay setting the tone that would cause my child to be secretive, self-hating, depressed or suicidal. I want them to know that regardless of how I feel, or what our faith tells us, that they can come to me NO MATTER WHAT, and that I will love them NO MATTER WHAT, and that they will be treated as valid and with compassion and reason NO MATTER WHAT."
That's a worthy sentiment and I agree 100%. When I have children, I would want the same. But if they have a drug problem, or if they are involved in some unhealthy or abusive behavior, I'm not going to tell them they don't have a problem. If you are evangelical, please don't lose sight of that.
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 20, 2007 12:48 AM
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Kelly, are you saying translation is impossible? I don't get it. The word is there in Koine Greek *and* Hebrew.
Let me put it this way - if you got pulled over for speeding, do you think you could get out of it by saying, "the sign wasn't in kilometers per half hour". No judge would buy it, and neither will God. You must repent of your sins.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 19, 2007 12:57 AM
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Aaron - I agree with you whole-heartedly and it's truly a stain on this country that it cannot fully accept its gay citizens and I'm not particularly optimistic it ever will as long as it sees itself as the light of the world - self-righteousness and homophobia tend to go together, but look on the bright side - you could do far worse than Spain.
Posted by: James | October 18, 2007 12:50 AM
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Way to go Chris - I think you set a few on fire. This is gonna be fun. I don't have time to express myself right now, but I will be back. I see that people are quoting more Bible verses now. Interesting - I still don't see "homosexual", and like I said, I don't see "heterosexual" either. So many of you are so delusional: you nothing about from where your version of your Book came, cultural history of those times, I mean, take just one word or maybe a phrase from any of the above verses listed and see if you can do the research to translate it more accurately. Guess what, you can't because we don't have the Original document from which to draw. Think about it, how much sense does it make to try to use the KJV (do you know anything about the white bigot anyway?) and then translate into Aramaic from the year 2BC or 5AD, please?
Posted by: KELLY MATTINGLY | October 17, 2007 4:41 PM
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Aaron:
I fear that Focus on the Family's "softer edge" may in the end only result in BGLT people being stabbed with a dull knife - I hope I'm wrong.
It truly sucks that you have to leave your country to be able to be with the person you love.
Best to you both.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 17, 2007 3:41 PM
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I am glad to hear at least a "softer edge" from Focus on the Family. After Pastor Ted Haggard admitted to having gay sex for four years, I would think it is high time that evangelical Christians (including Dr. Dobson) rethink their homophobia.
Gays and lesbians desperately need to have the same civil rights as traditional married couples. For example, U.S. Immigration laws prohibited me from sponsoring my Spanish partner of 6 years for a green card, despite the fact that he is upwardly mobile, completely healthy, holds a four year University degree and has no criminal record of any kind. As a well educated, successful, upper middle class American, I would be a perfect sponsor - but immigration is not open to gay or lesbian couples. As a consequence, one year ago, I moved to Spain so we could continue our monogamous relationship. I live in exile because of laws that specifically keep gays from sponsoring foreign partners.
Eventually all this will change as younger people, including Evangelical Christians, recognize that gays are not a threat to traditional families. Unfortunately for us, these changes are coming far too late.
Aaron Ashcraft
Barcelona, Spain
Posted by: Aa | October 17, 2007 8:55 AM
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"Funny how they couldn't just go over to the next town and marry up. No, they had to have sex with their father."
While I understand the point being made by Irving, the daughters of Lot believed that they were replenishing the population of the Earth. They were technically unaware of another town.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 8:00 PM
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That is not actually me there...someone used the name by mistake in response to me...I think.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 7:37 PM
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You raise a very interesting point.
Yes, God did tell the village adultress to "Go and sin no more". And it's clear that adultery is a major sin.
But God did not command that the adultress be hounded, that she be denied health care benefits, that her friends not be allowed to see her on her death bed, that she not be able to get old age benefits, that her life be made as difficult as possible.
Yet that's exactly what these folks are demanding be done to gay people.
Even if being gay is a sin (debatable point), how is it that it's morally acceptable to hound gay people and cause them misery?
And how much misery is acceptable? Why do we stop at denying pensions, making legal transactions difficult, etc?
If it's ok to harass them, why can't we do more? Why can't we charge them more for basic services? Why can't we insist they be banned from, say, grocery stores, or pharmacies? Why can't we require them to live in designated areas? Why can't we deny them drivers licenses? Or the ability to own property?
Sound ridiculous? Yes. But once we treat people as inferior and strip them of equality, it's sortof hard to know where to stop.
Posted by: In All Fairness | October 16, 2007 4:45 PM
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Irving:
Yes, they often leave out that little Sodom gem. Funny how they couldn't just go over to the next town and marry up. No, they had to have sex with their father.
Funny how they leave out so many verses. Like the Bible verse instructing Jewish soldiers that they must wait a respectable time to allow the widow of a dead soldier to grieve before they were free to rape her.
I'd say that one's my favorite.
But as sheer numbers go, the Biblical instructions to give all your belongings away and live a life of poverty is probably the most overlooked by this crowd. The Bible mentions what may be same-sex physical relations maybe a dozen times. But it mentions helping the poor and living a life in which you give all to the poor hundreds of times.
So which ones do these masters of hate trot out? The dozen or so, of course.
Posted by: Hillman | October 16, 2007 4:40 PM
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Hillman,
Good Point! Also, that destruction of the wicked city of Sodom story they like to trot out so often...they always stop there but it gets WAY better! Daughters getting their dad drunk so they can rape him, and then bearing his children. This is who God SAVED as the non-wicked citizens of the city.
Posted by: irving | October 16, 2007 4:16 PM
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Truthsayer:
So we must, as a nation, go by the Biblical definition of marriage?
Fine. I hope you like incestuous polygamy.
Didn't God bless Jacob after he married sisters? No, not after one died. After he was tricked into marrying the one he didn't love, he then married the one he did. So he married sisters.
Of course, we're overlooking the fact that the unloved sister was forced to marry him.
In fact, forced marriage was the norm in the Bible. And it was never condemned.
So, to be true to your thesis, you need to be pushing for the right to forced marriage (often of very young girls, as this was the norm in the Bible), polygamy, and even incestuous polygamy.
So how about it?
Posted by: Hillman | October 16, 2007 4:02 PM
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KeviKev,
Thank you for the kind words!
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 2:47 PM
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"So ask yourself, is it more LOVING to let someone go to hell, by withholding INFORMATION from them? Or is it more LOVING to tell them about the INFORMATION and let them make up their own minds as to their fate?"
I agree with you wholeheartedly my friend!
I just don't think it is right to force behavior guidelines. I can tell you of the impending explosion in your vecinity, but am I still accountable for MOVING you when you refuse to accept it? If you are blown to bits, is it now my fault? I would say not.
So it is with Christianity in the USA, and as a result, I will not make it harder for my fellow citizen to make their own choices.
Furthermore, my wonderful information cannot be proven except in my example of inner peace. Spewing fire and brimstone does not convey the inner peace my faith provides me. I would be most successful in spreading the word by answering the question; Why are you so at peace and a consistently happy person? No one will ask if I sound and look angry all the time. And if I offer that explanation under those circumstances, no one will believe me.
Christ told the adultress, "Go and sin no more". But he knew that she would, he did not follow her around and make sure she didn't and he did not petition lawmakers to impact the lives of all adultresses.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 1:49 PM
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Sorry! That is my post above.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 1:29 PM
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I guess my problem here is my lack of understanding.
When you say:
"However, when they want BOOKS in school to PROMOTE that LIFESTYLE, than yes they are stepping on my toes and I will speak up."
"but don't change my way of life and try to have our children READ all their literature to brain wash them into thinking that it's OK."
"I would suggest you tell the gay movement to do the same and stop trying to change CURRENT LAWS to get them to do what they want and make our CHILDREN READ about it in SCHOOL!!!"
I don't understand what these laws, books and literature are. I have not encountered any lifestyle promoting books in my children's curricula, let alone as required reading. What proposed laws will require such literature as mandatory in public schools.
Until I can understand this I can't have an opinion about it. I will say this though; As far as my children potentially learning about homosexuality, or the "life-style" (whatever it is that means), if the material is fact based and straight-forward academia in nature I condone the pursuit of knowledge. I also am available to my children to discuss ANY topic they want. Since they bear no shame from me in looking to improve their minds, they should have no apprehension in bringing even difficult subjects to me for discussion. They already know that I will not overreact, which creates a comfort level that is productive.
Now if you are talking about blatant and gratuitous or purely base material, I would have a strong reaction against that. However, i have not heard of even the threat of this, and cannot imagine possible legislation mandating the supply of such material to students.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2007 1:28 PM
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In all fairness:
Think about this. If you worked for the CIA or FBI, and you found out that a bomb would explode in your neighborhood, would you not want to warn your family and your neighbors??
Well the same goes for Christians. If you have special information that says that when God comes back to judge the world He will destroy the wicked, wouldn't it be LOVING to warn your NEIGHBOR about the BOMB that's coming???
Well here is your special INFORMATION:
Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, SEXUALLY IMMORAL, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the SECOND DEATH.”"
So ask yourself, is it more LOVING to let someone go to hell, by withholding INFORMATION from them? Or is it more LOVING to tell them about the INFORMATION and let them make up their own minds as to their fate?
Posted by: TruthSayer | October 16, 2007 1:24 PM
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In all fairness:
"If my neighbor does not, it is not for me to regulate his behavior to match MY belief. It is not for me to stop him at all costs if he does believe as I do but chooses not to follow it. I am not my brother's keeper in EVERY sense of it. I can spread the word through example...but I value my freedom and will not infringe on another's in any way. Example goes A LOT further than beating someone over the head with the Bible."
I personally will not try to change anyone, however the "gay movement" is trying to change everyone. Understand that if a person wants to be gay that is between themselves and their maker. However, when they want BOOKS in school to PROMOTE that LIFESTYLE, than yes they are stepping on my toes and I will speak up. But if they choose to do it without TRYING TO INFLUENCE my CHILDREN, than let them do there thing.
You are the one who misses the point, the gay movement are the ones who are trying to have everyone MATCH thier beliefs. They are the ones who want to change the long held establishment of MARRIAGE being what they want. If they want "civil unions" than go for it, but don't change my way of life and try to have our children READ all their literature to brain wash them into thinking that it's OK.
So your point is well taken, I would suggest you tell the gay movement to do the same and stop trying to change CURRENT LAWS to get them to do what they want and make our CHILDREN READ about it in SCHOOL!!!
Posted by: TruthSayer | October 16, 2007 1:06 PM
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You know who I love?
In All Fairness...
The person writing comments under this name just embodies the attitude I wish all people who consider themselves faithful had. Heck, let's just expand that wish to all people, regardless of what I'll call "faith status".
Posted by: KeviKev | October 16, 2007 12:54 PM
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"Without the Bible you can't really say much about anything being right or wrong. Pretty much everything becomes right."
Not so, plain empathy plays a role, which many quoting the Bible sorely lack.
Furthermore, I stated that I have and FOLLOW my faith. You miss the point.
"I believe that God will look down upon this world and determine the SINFULness of the world and will judge the world for their sins. "
Was this EVER in question? I neve doubted your belief for a moment. What has this to do with the freedom of gay people to choose their own path?
"If you don't believe in a God who will punish SIN, than continue doing your thing. But I will pray that you don't have to find out while burning in hell's fire."
I don't know what you mean by "doing MY thing". You believe as I do (at least on that point). If my neighbor does not, it is not for me to regulate his behavior to match MY belief. It is not for me to stop him at all costs if he does believe as I do but chooses not to follow it. I am not my brother's keeper in EVERY sense of it. I can spread the word through example...but I value my freedom and will not infringe on another's in any way. Example goes A LOT further than beating someone over the head with the Bible.
Besides, the mystery of my faith is that Christed died, rose, and will come again. But it is a MYSTERY. I believe it though I know it cannot be proven. That is what faith is. I also value what it means to be a citizen of the US...if it can't be proven it is opinion. I can accept that, I don't see it as infringing upon MY faith...I just don't see why so many "Christians" are so obsessed about the behavior of people they won't associate with anyway, and who do no harm to them.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 12:50 PM
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Chris:
You are right, it is bad to committ adultery. Thus if you are not married (husband and wife) you are committing adultery. Thanks for pointing that out.
Note: The only definition of being married in the Bible is between a MAN and WOMAN. Thus 2 men or 2 women cannot be married by definition's in the Bible (and the Bible is what Christians live by).
And this is directly from Jesus MOUTH:
Mark 10: "6 But from the BEGINNING of the CREATION, God ‘made them MALE and FEMALE.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his WIFE, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what GOD has joined together, let not man separate.”"
And please highlight Jesus WORDS as being "WHAT GOD HAS JOINED TOGETHER". Jesus says God joined the man and woman together, BUT NEVER has God joined man and man, or woman and woman.
Posted by: Truthsayer | October 16, 2007 12:41 PM
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In all fairness:
I agree with your sentiment about the Bible and secular legislation being differnt. That's why we're supposed to have the "separation of church and state".
However, as a Bible believing person, I believe that God will look down upon this world and determine the SINFULness of the world and will judge the world for their sins. So I will always stand on the Bible's side.
2 Peter 2:"4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, "
If you don't believe in a God who will punish SIN, than continue doing your thing. But I will pray that you don't have to find out while burning in hell's fire.
Without the Bible you can't really say much about anything being right or wrong. Pretty much everything becomes right.
Posted by: TruthSayer | October 16, 2007 12:27 PM
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Anonymous
First, you quoted Timothy. I asked for a quote from the mouth of Jesus, NOT what one of his disciples said.
Second, if I take your word that EVERYTHING in the bible is the word of God, then I take it that every time you eat bacon, or pork, or shellfish, that you're also being condemned to hell, because according to Leviticus, that's considered just as bad.
Also, having an unmarried daughter, you're bound by Leviticus to sell her into slavery. And if your wife is disobedient, (they don't say how bad she has to be, so maybe a night off is okay) you are ordered to stone her to death?
Oh, wait!! Jesus apparently came and revised the rules. So now we have to be able to pick and choose which ones he said were to go by the wayside, and which ones were extra super important?
Don't misunderstand me. I happen to consider myself a Christian. My partner and I go to church regularly. I just don't happen to subscribe to your "it's my way or the hellway" branch of Christianity.
One last thought.
The bible condemns homosexuality two or three times. It condemns adultery over 300 times.
Which one is worse?
And by adultery, that's ANYTHING outside of marriage #1. By those rules, there are a heck of a lot of evangelicals with a lot to answer for.
And to close with a quote from a book I once read.
If it's love, the Lord won't mind. God knows there's enough hate in this old world already.
Posted by: Chris | October 16, 2007 12:11 PM
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"Since you asked for a verse from Jesus about homosexuality being wrong, can you please give me ONE verse in the BIBLE that says Homosexuality/Gayness is RIGHT??? "
A lack of proof that something is right is not the same as proof that it is wrong. However, the lack of proof that something is wrong should be enough to prevent disenfranchising another person (a stanger to most holier-than-thous) as if it could be proved to be wrong! Unfortunately, faith or not, it amounts to opinion in the case of the USofA
Posted by: Are you KIDDING?! | October 16, 2007 12:02 PM
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To the Bible quoters,
I am a Christian, I get it, I know what it says. However, in this country not everyone is Christian, or subscribes to your interpretations. How does that affect gay people demanding equality in the eyes of our secular government.
As I said before, no one can seem to provide a compelling argument against gay marriage that does not rely completley on scripture or a slippery slope argument.
Fine, as a Christian I can agree theologically that homosexuality is a sin. What has that got to do with legislation? All morality cannot be legislated in this country, and scripture cannot be the sole reason for making laws that affect those who do not agree with Christian theology, or a particular brand of Christian Theology.
Divorce and remarriage is adultery. So much for the sanctity of marriage. Should we outlaw divorce? If I don't think that we should outlaw divorce, am I condoning sin? Why is the validation of a second marriage not the promotion of sin the way that mere acceptance in a secular government for gay marriage is religously unbearable?
When was the last time someone was prosecuted for adultery? Who is serving a sentence for adultery in this country? I'd be curious to know what the sentence is, or should be.
Not keeping the sabbath is a sin. However, our system of government actually protects a person's right NOT to keep the sabbath.
Furthermore, all you Christians who go out to eat in a restaurant after church on Sunday, or shopping, are not only condoning but PROMOTING sin! Your patronage requires businesses to stay open and workers to be on the clock.
To legislate against what Christians consider to be idol worship violates the religous freedom of many people in this country, and yet they have this protection. Am I condoning sin for not fighting against this?
People fail to honor their mothers and fathers every day. Should we legislate that sin? By not demanding legal enforcement of this Commandment are we promoting sin?
Quote the Bible all day long. For me you are not only preaching to the choir, you will not change my mind. What the Bible says has no bearing on how legistlation for the religously free is determined in our GREAT SECULAR NATION.
Leviticus, Romans, Sodom...what has this go to do with letting my gay neighbor live according to his conscience the same way that I do?
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 11:56 AM
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JJ:
As to your subway experience:
I have no problem with couples of any gender composition holding hands or exchanging small kisses in public. By the same token, I don't care to observe prolonged full-frontal snogging, regardless of the genders involved. That's just a matter of public manners, not a reflection on sexual orientation. If tongue is being exchanged, it's time to get off the street and get a room.
Surely you're not going to trot out that old red herring placing a consensual relationship between adults of the same sex with the rape of a child. If you're going to do that, then we need to outlawe heterosexual marriage, since most pedophiles are heterosexual in their adult relationships.
Same-sex relationships betwen consenting adults - no problem. Mess with a kid, you need to have your gonads removed via your nostrils.
As for your issues with gay people having sex in public, I'll repeat what I said about PDA in general. I don't want to see ANYONE having sex in public, gay or straight. If the clothes are coming off, it's time to get a room.
I beloing to a UU church, and we were performing same-sex weddings and referring to the couples as married for over ad ecade, despite the fact that gthe marrieges have no loegal standing in my state. Some of the teachers in our children's Religious Education program are BGLT. Not once has ther been a problem with these teachers. Atone time, we had a lesbian associate pastor. She and her wife have since moved, but I still consider her my minister, and often consult her regarding spiritual matters.
Amd this is not a "Straight blog" and you don't get to decide who can and can't post.
And if you're worried about same0sex unions depleting the gene pool, then grab your wife,head for the bedroom, and get busy.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 16, 2007 11:50 AM
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Chris:
Since you asked for a verse from Jesus about homosexuality being wrong, can you please give me ONE verse in the BIBLE that says Homosexuality/Gayness is RIGHT???
All I ask for is ONE verse in the whole Bible that specifically says that it's ok and won't land you in hell when Jesus comes again. For I've quoted at least 4 verses that say it will get you into hell, (IF YOU DON'T REPENT OF THE SIN, it gets you into hell, not simply having sinful traits).
And don't use some verse that says God loves everyone, for if that is the case, than we might as well say that God does not feel that murdering someone is a sin.
Posted by: TruthSayer | October 16, 2007 11:34 AM
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Pablo:
God says homosexuality is sin period. Therefore, Christians cannot accept homosexuality as good. Anyone who engages in sexual activities outside of God's plan (including sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman)is in sin. The only remedy for our sin loving nation is repentance.
Your book also says that eating shellfish is a sin as is wearing clothing woven from different fibers. So should those of us who wear poly/cotton t-shirts at our crawfish boils not be allowed to marry?
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 16, 2007 11:23 AM
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Chris:
I'm sorry, let me put it in more simple terms for you to understand, (taking out any definitions of homosexuality).
Romans 1: "26 For this reason GOD GAVE THEM UP to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the MEN, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, MEN WITH MEN committing what is SHAMEFUL,..."
So, if you are living a lifestyle of a MAN with a MAN, the Bible calls it SHAMEFUL. Does that help your language barrier? If you prefer to call a MAN with a MAN, some other word, go right ahead. Whatever you call it, the Bible says it's wrong. And that you need to stop!!
And if you want a verse that is from Jesus mouth than read any verse in the Bible.
2 Timothy 3:16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"
Yes, that may be a shocker, but it's true all scripture, aka the Bible, is from God, aka Jesus. And it's purpose is to CHANGE us into His RIGHTEOUSNESS, aka no more sin, which includes gayness. So the next time you want a verse from Jesus, just open the Bible and know that all the books in the Bible come from God.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 16, 2007 11:14 AM
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Oh, one more thing.
The word "homosexual" didn't even exist until the late 19th century, when a British Psychiatrist coined the term.
If you go back to the original greek and/or Aramaic versions of the Bible, St Paul was referring to "temple prostitutes".
Homosexual, as a word, didn't exist. So if you're quoting a bible that has that word in it, I suggest you find an older version, or one that is a DIRECT translation. Not an "abridged" version, or an updated version.
If you really want to know the word of God, you will need to learn how to read Aramaic, or ancient greek.
Posted by: Chris | October 16, 2007 10:40 AM
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I find it amazing that Truthsayer's answer is that "it's okay to be gay, but you just have to spend your life alone in order to get into heaven". It's like of like to old joke about many different floors in heaven, but passing the 6th floor by, because that's where the Baptists are, and they think they're the only ones there.
And while we're at it, can anyone tell me one sentance Jesus said about being gay? Don't quote me Leviticus, or Pauls letter to the Romans, but quote me what JESUS said. I don't think you'll find anything.
It's amazing that so many people think that allowing my partner and I to get married will cause their marriages to crash and burn. Gee, I would think that a 50% divorce rate is a bigger risk, or maybe people like Newt Gingrich filing for divorce while his wife is in the hospital for cancer treatment, in order to marry his mistress, would kind of set an example of "what NOT to do".
My partner and I have been together 28 years. We have a home together, accounts together, and completely intertwined lives, just like any other married couple, but in most parts of the US, if he ended up in hospital, it would be his family, who he hasn't spoken with for 15 years, who would make the decisions.
What part of "All men are created equal" don't you understand?
Posted by: Chris | October 16, 2007 10:35 AM
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"Hate the sin and love the sinner." This is the Christian approach to every concrete expression of human "broken-ness". Note that this approach is NOT, "Tolerate the sin and tolerate the sinner." In fact, Jesus Himself said of such "tolerant" individuals, "...because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth" (Rev 3:16). In other words, a person who has a halfhearted commitment to Christianity and who is indifferent to Evil is nauseating to Christ.
Posted by: DoTheRightThing | October 16, 2007 10:28 AM
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Yes, some hardcore right wingers are realizing that gay people are everywhere.... in their own families, in their own churches (I mean, really, how many church organists are straight?).
But to say you are 'tolerant' while still supporting second class citizenship is a sham. In fact, some would say it's a lie (you know, a sin). Denying gays the benefits of marriage means denying an old woman in Nebraska her survivor benefits when she needs them most (so many elderly folks in the US rely on government survivor benefits, spousal pensions, etc., which are unavailable to gay people thanks in large part to the Christian right). It means denying a young man with AIDS hospital benefits and the ability for his loved ones to see him in the hospital without question. It means encouraging an atmosphere where gays are denigrated and made less than human. There are over 1000 benefits that marriage brings. Admittedly, some are pretty minor, but many have a very real and important impact on how people live their lives, especially in times of crisis and need.
So 'tolerance' is nice. But these Christian right folks needs to back it up with actual deeds.
Sometimes I wonder how these folks justify making life hard for gays. Would Jesus support laws that make it hard for an elderly gay woman to get survivor benefits or medical care? No, He wouldn't. But some of His followers sure don't seem to have a problem doing exactly that.
Posted by: Hillman | October 16, 2007 10:26 AM
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Yes, some hardcore right wingers are realizing that gay people are everywhere.... in their own families, in their own churches (I mean, really, how many church organists are straight?).
But to say you are 'tolerant' while still supporting second class citizenship is a sham. In fact, some would say it's a lie (you know, a sin). Denying gays the benefits of marriage means denying an old woman in Nebraska her survivor benefits when she needs them most (so many elderly folks in the US rely on government survivor benefits, spousal pensions, etc., which are unavailable to gay people thanks in large part to the Christian right). It means denying a young man with AIDS hospital benefits and the ability for his loved ones to see him in the hospital without question. It means encouraging an atmosphere where gays are denigrated and made less than human. There are over 1000 benefits that marriage brings. Admittedly, some are pretty minor, but many have a very real and important impact on how people live their lives, especially in times of crisis and need.
So 'tolerance' is nice. But these Christian right folks needs to back it up with actual deeds.
Sometimes I wonder how these folks justify making life hard for gays. Would Jesus support laws that make it hard for an elderly gay woman to get survivor benefits or medical care? No, He wouldn't. But some of His followers sure don't seem to have a problem doing exactly that.
Posted by: Hillman | October 16, 2007 10:25 AM
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Yes, some hardcore right wingers are realizing that gay people are everywhere.... in their own families, in their own churches (I mean, really, how many church organists are straight?).
But to say you are 'tolerant' while still supporting second class citizenship is a sham. In fact, some would say it's a lie (you know, a sin). Denying gays the benefits of marriage means denying an old woman in Nebraska her survivor benefits when she needs them most (so many elderly folks in the US rely on government survivor benefits, spousal pensions, etc., which are unavailable to gay people thanks in large part to the Christian right). It means denying a young man with AIDS hospital benefits and the ability for his loved ones to see him in the hospital without question. It means encouraging an atmosphere where gays are denigrated and made less than human. There are over 1000 benefits that marriage brings. Admittedly, some are pretty minor, but many have a very real and important impact on how people live their lives, especially in times of crisis and need.
So 'tolerance' is nice. But these Christian right folks needs to back it up with actual deeds.
Sometimes I wonder how these folks justify making life hard for gays. Would Jesus support laws that make it hard for an elderly gay woman to get survivor benefits or medical care? No, He wouldn't. But some of His followers sure don't seem to have a problem doing exactly that.
Posted by: Hillman | October 16, 2007 10:25 AM
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ATT: ALL "Homosexual" & "Lesbian" web surfers:
PLEASE stay_off_this_straight_blogg!
Please go to a GAY_BLOGG or GAY_SITES(S) & advertise & boest your "freeakish_fedish" fantasies & desires with the others whom are not straight!
note: No matter what any Homosexual & or Lesbian active HUMATE thinks or sais about telling "STRAIGHT_FOLK" that a "union between a homosexual & or Lesbian" is the same LOVE AS BETWEEN A "CIVIL_MARRIAGE" nor a "RELIGIOUS_MARRIAGE" IS PSYCHOTIC BEAHAVIOUR! aka "Situational_Lieing"! Especially to dare to ask or demand that they should have same treatment as STRAIGHT folk???????!!!!!!
important: In this modern world ALL HUMATE are (under their CIVIL & CRIMINAL rights laws) entitled to have an Equal SAY but not equal standing spicifically to thwart or make_not_TRue (OPPOSITE OF myth) THE HOLY RELATIONS BETWEEN A "STRAIGHT real man & real woman! and:
because you appear today (sureley G_d did not have Cosmic sexual intercourse with your MOTHER) in MIRACLE & ZERO SIN that as a "Homosexual" or a "Lesbian" now or today does not mean you are cursed! But you are cursed when in PUBLIC you and a group or organized bunch of united Homosexuals & Lesbians trample on the sactity or HOLINESS of a rel marriage between a real man & real woman!
IT TOOK "SEX" TO GET HERE! THIS SAME "SEX" (pleasure is NOT_LOVE) OR SEX IS not love BUT THE VERY MIRACLE OF HOW WE GOT HERE! gAY folk are dangerous to Americas Repopulation because gay life is negative towards humanity"s future & is highly corruptable & is abnormal (never normal) behaviour that is "psychotic"!
PLEASE: Under Eclati_On LAW(S) those kids or adults whom have "HORMONOL_IMBALANCES" WILL HAVE TO TAKE A STABILISING "medication" TO KEEP ONE STRAIGHT!
REMEMBER: WHEN one saids "I AM GAY" to some stranger (straight person) THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SAY
or best of ALL say "I AM not STRAIGHT!" tHIS WAY THE STRAIGHTS WILL ELIMINATE THE "AMBIGUITY" in the Gay movement who hijacked the "clean original innoscent version of Americas dictionary "GAY" WORD for their personal sexscapades & selfish "jealous_gender_psychology" so they can challenge the majority_straigh of AMERICA! Hence: PSYCHOTIC BEHAVIOURS! so:
NOTE: From the PUBLIC_SAFETY LAWS : It is much more SAFER for a WOMAN & A WOMAN sexual relatioship (married as Lesbians or not married?) Then for A MAN & A MAN sexual relationship! PLEASE DO NOT BE IN DENIAL! that:
It is a fact that it is the HOMOSEXUALS of Americas community that are dieing and are spreading "AIDS" and other "STDs" of the "coochy poochy" {both NATURAL & UNNATURAL} TYPES! Not so much with Lesbian relations! INTERESTINGLY:
IN CHINA: There are no open homosexual & lesbian movement I don"t think so: but I know that in china that to give BIRTH TO A BOY is coveted through_out their Land! And that they "ABORT" their "GIRL BABY"S"!
WHY?: BECAUSE their National "GENE_POOL" (FOR THAT RACE AND OR PARTICULAR ENVIROMENT) in china happens such that they justly produce more "girls" yhan "boys"! So:
UNLESS you they recognize "poligamy" or same_sex FEMALE unions (with limited rights or full rights?) in order to ABSOB THE "MEMETIC_OVERFLOW" aka Gender Specific_Runaway Gene_Pool Phenomonon! SUPPOSE:
THAT: In a Society like AMERICA has so many lesbian unions that that nations "GENE_POOL" of girls was being PUBLICALLY_DEPLEATED" or draining the SUPPLY OF "REAL_MEN"????!!!!!
so now we have GENDER_ECONOMICS or SAME_SEX_ECONOMICS (one O one) IN OUR ECONOMY TO WORRY ABOUT OR LEGISLATINGLY control such a chance PHENOMONA??????
REMEMBER: MEN do fight over their WOMAN & WOMAN also "fight" over a MAN too! HARK: thus "violence between gender wars" or "Marital_Jealousy"s" {my partner!} IS REAL IN ANY SOCIETY! and SO:
NEVER FORGETT: That "DISEASES" (sexual ways : note AIDS comes from Chimpanzeez!) OR RATHER THE hISTORY OF DISEASES tell humanity that "MILLIONS_OF_PEOPLE_WILL_DIE" in the future too from a break_out that tends to recycle itself via certain humate behavioural PATTERNS via exposure to each other aka HETEROSEXUAL_COUPLING and SAME_SEX_COUPLING!
SO from a "STRAIGHT_MANS" point of view so to speaketh is that it is better to turn a blinds eye when it comes to Lesbianism than to Homoosexual relations! NOTE: AND those who are straight should not be able to ask "are you Homosexual or Lesbian!?" its insulting to a STRAIGHTS psychology of what LOVE really is "between a real MAN & real WOMAN"!
For Eclatarians the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION is holier than thou (Homosexuals & Lesbians) necause we EclatI_oNS APPRECIATE BEING BORN VIA nATURAL_sEX and we appear not from Homosexual intercourse noth at same act with Lesbians intercourse between same_sex partners!
HUMANITY APPEARS IN MIRACLE & zero biblical sin today! IF you believe in biblical ADAM & EVE storys then you can not make a natural right a Natural wrong! THEREFORE: hOMOSEXUALITY & LESBIANISM IS "PLEASURE_THING" and should never be a natural right THEREFORE: THE CASE for giving "EQUAL_RIGHTS" to HOMOSEXUALS & LESBIAN SAME SEX_COUPLES is ANTI_HUMANITY & ESPECIALY ANTI CIVILIZATION whwn it comes to the "Marriage between a Man & a Woman" is holy question!????
Posted by: Ja Joz | October 16, 2007 10:08 AM
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Let me start by saying this GOD LOVES ALL mankind and wants them all to be SAVED (1 Tim 2:4), even sinners, (because we all are sinners). However, God will only take people who confess their sins to heaven when He returns(1 John 1:9). So since, this is a discussion about the Bible, lets list some verses that specifically speak about gayness and how God views it.
Let's look at a city that paid the price of eternal judgement for SINS they committed. Sodom and Gomorah was destroyed for being EXCEEDINGLY WICKED. But what was the ONLY SIN mentioned in the Bible before their destruction??
Gen 19:4,5 "4 Now before they lay down, the MEN of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the MEN who came to you tonight? Bring them out to US that we may KNOW them CARNALLY.”" (Here we see the men of Sodom, wanting to have homosexual relations with these men. This was the ONLY SIN recorded before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Do you think there's a reason for ONLY naming that one SIN???)
And just in case someone thinks that I'm taking that verse out of it's context, let's get further explanation from another book in the Bible.
Jude 1:7 "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to SEXUAL IMMORALITY and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (So since we just saw that the ONLY SIN mentioned in the account of the destruction of Sodom was HOMOSEXUALITY, we can now see that Jude is telling us that it was "SEXUAL IMMORALITY" that was going on in Sodom. Not something that God CONDONED, but more so CONDEMNED.)
And here we see a specific example of God giving up His Loved mankind for their desire to obey homosexuality and other immoral acts.
Romans 1: "26 For this reason GOD GAVE THEM UP to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the MEN, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, MEN WITH MEN committing what is SHAMEFUL, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." (This verse agein shows us that God DOES NOT CONDONE HOMOSEXUALITY, but says that it is SHAMEFUL.)
SO like I started off God does LOVE everyone, however if you hold on to ANY SIN till you die, God will not take you to heaven with Him. So if you choose to be gay or support gay peoples sins, then you are only harming yourself, and will be sad when you learn that God does not take the gay sinner to heaven.
NOTE: You can be gay, (attracted to the same sex), but not act out on that feeling, and you can be saved. But if you continually give into that desire, you are committing a sin each time, and unless you confess that as a SIN, and not try to say it's ok, you will not see heaven. All of these verses are DIRECT QUOTES from the BIBLE. If you have a problem with gay being a SIN, take it up with God. The Bible specifically calls gayness a SIN. Either you can flee from the SIN, or you can embrace it, those are your options. But trying to call a SIN, something else, won't get you into heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9 "9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, NOR HOMOSEXUALS, nor sodomites."
Posted by: TruthSayer | October 16, 2007 10:03 AM
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BTW, I am not Catholic. The Bible is the final authority on right and wrong not the hierarchy of the Catholic church.
Posted by: Pablo | October 16, 2007 9:42 AM
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Hello Norrie,
God designed man and woman to have children between a married husband and wife. I do not see anything in scripture that would prohibit a married man from using science to implant his sperm in his wife.
Posted by: Pablo | October 16, 2007 9:39 AM
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Hello, Pablo. It's been a long time.
You didn't answer my question, though it seems you might have tried to, since your first paragraph is only a sentence fragment. Did something get lost in transmission?
Anyway, here's what I wrote earlier:
"Pablo,
You wrote:
"God says homosexuality is sin period. Therefore, Christians cannot accept homosexuality as good."
God (check Catholic doctrine) says that making "test-tube babies" is sinful, so Christians cannot accept this method of fertilization as good.
Do you agree?"
Looking forward to your reply.
Regards.
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | October 16, 2007 9:10 AM
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Same old arguments I've heard my entire life. Well people, back in 1969 the Gay Protests began. We are slowly inching toward obtaining equal rights. We shouted it then and still say it today, only in a different manner:
WE'RE QUEER, WE'RE HERE, GET USED TO IT!!!!
Posted by: Rich | October 16, 2007 9:08 AM
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SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST,
"I also think it is the gay rights lobby that has forced this evangelical reaction. They think they have the right to push their agenda in the schools, censor dissenting opinion, etc."
The gay rights lobby has not formed my Evangelical reaction. Evangelicals have done that quite nicely themselves. Your comments reinforce my belief of that. I am unaware of how the gay lobby is pushing "their agenda in the schools".
"I really don't think it's a question of evangelicals arrogantly, aggressively imposing their views on others. They are reacting to the gay lobby trying to usurp the parents' right to teach morality to their own children, for their own self serving ends."
It is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for anyone in this country to usurp a parent's right to teach morality to their children. The problem is that the Evangelical standpoint is that the public school should ACTUALLY do it for them, and disregard the impact on other children whose parents DON'T want morality taught in school so that they CAN do it themselves without interference.
Furthermore, I think you project onto the gay lobby the very behavior that Evangelicals are guilty of themselves.
They worked very hard to get the Health Class textbooks in Texas to be abstinence only in nature, which in turn affects the text book market for the rest of the country because of the size of the population there.
This insistence that Intelligent Design be taught in public schools is a further imposition. I have reviewd ID materials, and am appalled by the lack of academic substance! I do not want my children taught this ridiculousness, and if anyone else does then they need to send their children to a private school.
I grew up attending parochial schools. My parents paid their taxes to fund public schools, but felt strongly enough about wanting me to have a faith based education that they paid tuition on top of that...without complaint!
I EXPECT others to teach their children morality. I have respect for any parent who raises their children in ANY faith. However, I want my children to have a pragmatic view of what the world is, and the values that I teach them in torder to navigate it. The imposition here is on the part of Fundamental Christianity.
I cannot FULLY choose how my children turn out. If one of my children is gay, I do not want my example to be shabby treatment of my fellow citizens who are gay setting the tone that would cause my child to be secretive, self-hating, depressed or suicidal. I want them to know that regardless of how I feel, or what our faith tells us, that they can come to me NO MATTER WHAT, and that I will love them NO MATTER WHAT, and that they will be treated as valid and with compassion and reason NO MATTER WHAT.
As I said before, I don't deny you your faith, and respect your right to it. I would even fight to uphold your right! But I do not want my children to be taught it in school, and i do not want it to be what undoes what I have as a parental right...ME teaching MY children the MORALITY and VALUES as I see fit.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 16, 2007 8:28 AM
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That which has enabled the survival of humanity being sexual pleasure...as to people and their sexual preference..their must be protection for the child, as it must at present times be done through,enforcement of the law..as to all I can only appeal children due the adults support as protection it being both honourable as duty.... That said, same sex partnership,three in a bed, as group sexual entertainment,such the choice of the individual.The ultimate human goal be our Spiritual Development.In such all at different levels of attaining,those that do not through choice partake in SEXUAL PLEASURES,be having no right to dictate to others,rather than advise. Sexual contact can pass a variety of disease as such one must take caution,other concern a very young girl falling pregnant,where being totally unprepared to cope take responsability in caring for a child,it a case of decent,sexual guidence as education,not an attitude,of... SEX BE EVIL.
Posted by: LUCIFER | October 16, 2007 7:36 AM
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That which has enabled the survival of humanity being sexual pleasure...as to people and their sexual preference..their must be protection for the child, as it must at present times be done through,enforcement of the law..as to all I can only appeal children due the adults support as protection it being both honourable as duty.... That said, same sex partnership,three in a bed, as group sexual entertainment,such the choice of the individual.The ultimate human goal be our Spiritual Development.In such all at different levels of attaining,those that do not through choice partake in SEXUAL PLEASURES,be having no right to dictate to others,rather than advise. Sexual contact can pass a variety of disease as such one must take caution,other concern a very young girl falling pregnant,where being totally unprepared to cope take responsability in caring for a child,it a case of decent,sexual guidence as education,not an attitude,of... SEX BE EVIL.
Posted by: LUCIFER | October 16, 2007 7:35 AM
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Let's exegete the title of this article, shall we?
"Love Thy (Gay) Neighbor"
That's interesting. Sounds like Mt 19:19. But what was Jesus quoting?
Leviticus 19:
17Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Interesting eh? Maybe 'love' is not the same as unconditional approval? Would you call a parent loving who unconditionally approved of everything the child did?
If you take the Bible seriously, you've got to be aware, it defines its own terms with precision. You can't just 'free associate'.
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 16, 2007 2:25 AM
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Yes really, 'Hey Pablo' you say
"yet I fail to find any form of the word "Homosexual" in my Bible (KJV) or in what you wrote"
Please. As Pablo points out Mt 19:4-6 is enough to positively refute that nonsense.
In addition, Lev 20:13, Rom 1:27 give a definition of your word, and condemn the action. The definition is more precise than the just the word itself, so I'm not sure what your point is.
If you've got a legitimate argument shuffling around up there, I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear it. You must see - when you make such arguments, nobody's falling for it- you just hurt your own cause in the long run.
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 16, 2007 2:12 AM
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Norrie & Hey Pablo: From what book did,
Homosexuality is the word assigned to the un-natural ungodly acts of sex between people of the same sex. God made man and woman for each other as one. This includes the physical union but goes way beyond the physical to the union of two souls. Homosexuality is not God's plan. That is why women are different to men in physiology and in their personal makeup. They were designed to complement each other. The problem is that sinful humans want to do things against God's plan. I praise God for the way He made sex and the relationship between man and woman. God bless you!
Posted by: Pablo | October 16, 2007 1:16 AM
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People being tolerant of gays?
At least you've morally caught up to the 20th century now.
Posted by: Tom | October 16, 2007 12:47 AM
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In All Fairness...:
"I am a Christian, and stand by MY faith (which, by the way, is NOT Evangelical)."
I respect that, bro & no one should condemn you for your politics. I just get a bit despondent with all the cries of 'THEOCRAT!!! THEOCRAT!!!' I just want to encourage others who might be bullied.
I also think it is the gay rights lobby that has forced this evangelical reaction. They think they have the right to push their agenda in the schools, censor dissenting opinion, etc. In other words, they think they have the right to appropriate your children for their cause, which is scary.
I really don't think it's a question of evangelicals arrogantly, aggressively imposing their views on others. They are reacting to the gay lobby trying to usurp the parents' right to teach morality to their own children, for their own self serving ends.
If only they would police themselves a little bit better (perhaps put out PSAs condemning encounters in public restrooms where kids might accidentally see them). I wish they *would* present me with a difficult moral dilemma for condemning them. But this sordidness, this oportunism just makes me think "How long, oh Lord?"
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 16, 2007 12:08 AM
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FCSANDERS predictably trots out the tired fiction that sexual orientation is biological. No sane person really believes this, do they? Even if there were a shred of truth to this, it wouldn't change the fact that homosexuality is a behavior, which can be engaged in or refrained from.
The good news about homosexuality is that it is a sin, because sin can be forgiven. A correct interpretation of the Bible will not deny the sinfulness of homosexuality, but neither will it elevate that sin as somehow worse than other forms of fornication or even worse than unrelated sins such as covetousness or gluttony.
To Ms. Miller's point, Focus' new CEO may be kinder than Dr. Dobson, which won't be tough to accomplish, but it's unlikely that he will compromise on the clearly revealed word of God where homosexual behavior is concerned.
Posted by: andrew | October 15, 2007 11:44 PM
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"And to evangelicals who might be tempted to support 'gay marriage' because people accuse you of being 'theocrats' - please think about that argument for a second before swallowing it."
I would not want an Evangelical, or anyone else, to betray their beliefs. I just don't want those beliefs IMPOSED on ME. I am not gay, so I won't have gay sex, or marry another man. I am a Christian, and stand by MY faith (which, by the way, is NOT Evangelical). I will not impose my faith on my fellow countrymen who are free to live according to their own faiths and consciences.
For that matter, I am REALLY sick and tired of Evangelicals telling us all that they have a monopoly on the TRUE Christianity! Even as a Christian myself, I don't want their SLANT overriding EVERYONE else's freedom! I disagree with them much of the time, and want to maintain my freedom to live free of the tyranny I believe that they would impose.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 15, 2007 11:23 PM
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"The Episcopal Church Welcomes You" - KJS
"JOIN US" - Evil Dead
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 15, 2007 11:07 PM
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And to evangelicals who might be tempted to support 'gay marriage' because people accuse you of being 'theocrats' - please think about that argument for a second before swallowing it.
When people pass laws, no matter who they are, those laws will be informed by their morality.
If they are Christian, their morality will be informed by the Bible. It will be informed by the will of the transcendent God who is goodness itself.
If they are secularists, their morality will be based on pragmatism, or whichever way the Zeitgeist happens to be blowing that particular decade, or whatever idiotic, bestial urge nature happens to sling across their brain at that particular point in time.
In any case there will be *some* moral basis for your decisions that go into shaping laws. So please, if you are evangelical, pass laws in keeping with your conscience, even if they do not have a basis as rational and civilized as the secularists have.
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 15, 2007 11:03 PM
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Has it really come to this? Morality determined by polls? I wonder why the gays bother - were even James Dobson to endorse gay marriage, it would not be enough to salve their consciences.
Isaiah 28:17 - "Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet."
Righteousness does not change. However you fuss at that plumb line- it will still hang straight.
To all the gays out there who are upset about this issue, let me suggest that you are rebelling against the law written on your hearts (Rom 2:15, Rom 1:20,21,32).
All temptations probably have some genetic basis. That does not mean that what you are tempted to is moral (whether you be a child tempted to be bratty, or a kleptomaniac, or a homosexual). If you succeed in brainwashing or bullying evangelicals into submission, that will not make your evil acts pure.
There might be certain evangelicals who condemn you for the mere fact of having SSAs, which is evil and hypocritical. As wrong as this is, it does not give you an out for sinning. It does not sanctify your sin.
I beg you - Pablo and G.Gonzalez have it right - listen to them. You are behaving wickedly and you know it. Please repent and turn from your ways. You know statistics don't determine morality.
Posted by: SPONGJOHN SQUAREPANTHEIST | October 15, 2007 10:31 PM
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"What do you think, that there are homosexuals in heaven?"
I would not presume to KNOW who is, or is not in Heaven. I have my faith, and believe that if I follow it, I can find MY way to Heaven. I don't ever persume to KNOW that I am right, or to KNOW that the next person's faith is wrong. I would never presume to have knowledge that could ONLY belong to God. And I CERTIANLY would not deny my neighbor the right to live according to their own conscience, provided that my free will is not compromised.
Spreading the word is not the same as forcing behavior, and sitting in judgement is the job of GOD alone!
Posted by: I'd Hate to Have Your Nerve in My Tooth! | October 15, 2007 10:27 PM
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It's adorable to watch right wing Christians finally getting, uh, religion.
Posted by: B2O2 | October 15, 2007 9:59 PM
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Lust is 1 of the seven deadly sins. It doesn't matter if it's hetero or homo. When there is an itch, strike it with a match, or scratch and scratch...1 of the seven deadly sins. Come to church and confess, or find a pastor who will give approval, for a same sex union. What do you think, that there are homosexuals in heaven?
Posted by: brian mcc, the arctic | October 15, 2007 9:29 PM
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"God says homosexuality is sin period. Therefore, Christians cannot accept homosexuality as good."
And anyone who believes this, thank God, can believe that in this country. I would not have it any other way. But out of respect for my neighbors, with whom I want to live peacefully, I will leave matters of conscience to THEIR conscience! To work a quote from Thomas Jefferson...my gay neighbors' marriage "neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg". If they want their relationship to be treated with same regard as mine, I say, "More power to them"!
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 15, 2007 9:18 PM
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you pull those verses? Is what you wrote verbatim? Interesting. You say that God says, "Homosexuality is a sin, period", yet I fail to find any form of the word "Homosexual" in my Bible (KJV) or in what you wrote. You see, most of us refer to a written word but then how we relay it has to come through the filter of our own personal interpretation - which, in my opinion adulterates "God's word", if it can even be considered such in the first place. Now, as seen in what you wrote, a lot of different Bible versions have the parts about "that which is natural...or unnatural". Guess what, for a heterosexual man to be with another man, that's UNnatural. For a man to be with a boy - that's really UNnatural. For a heterosexual woman to be with a woman, that's UNnatural. For a woman to be with a girl, that really UNnatural. Hmm, what a concept. You know, now that I think about it, I fail to find "heterosexual" in these same Bible versions. I think a more accurate interpretation into words us plain folk can wrap our minds around, If it ain't natural to you, then don't do it!!!
For a moment let's address the part that states, "...dishonorable passions...". How common is child - sexual abuse in this country? Oh my God, watch all of these Bible-thumpers squirm. You talk about a "dishonorable passion", unnatural, a sin God hates - I bet that child, sexual abuse is most-hated by God. Yes, I was abused. If you're honest with yourself, one out of every four people reading this was abused as well. And I'd venture to guess that at least 50% of that group was raised in Church.
Let's get right to it, shall we. IF OUR CHURCHES AND OUR GOVERNMENTS PAY NO MIND TO CONDEMNING A SEXUAL PERPETRATOR TO HELL, THEN THEY SURE-AS-HELL DON'T HAVE GROUNDS TO BE CONDEMNING ANYONE ELSE due to certain sexual activity. What do you think?
Posted by: Hey Pablo: From what book did | October 15, 2007 9:09 PM
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Pablo,
You wrote:
"God says homosexuality is sin period. Therefore, Christians cannot accept homosexuality as good."
God (check Catholic doctrine) says that making "test-tube babies" is sinful, so Christians cannot accept this method of fertilization as good.
Do you agree?
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | October 15, 2007 8:44 PM
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By the time I read all of these comments, I'd forgotten the originally posed question. Humans are most passionate, are we not? Who can judge the true intent behind Dobson choosing his No. 2 guy or possibly, the sincerity of the gentleman - I can't. Actually, it's been a few years since I paid any attention to "Focus on the Family" or the like. If he's sincere, then great; if he's not, who cares? This discussion went from James Dobson to Gay Marriage in less than 60 seconds. WOW! Okay, let's take a poll:
1. If you CHOSE to be hetro, raise your hand.
2. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." So, if you do not sin, raise your hand.
3. Please, please, if you met Jesus or God in person and can first-handedly pass on any great teachings directly "from the horses mouth" (NO disrespect intended), step up and enlighten us.
Oh my gosh, I could go on and on, but you'd get bored.
Here's something else for you ponder:
When I am posed with, "Who are you?", this is my usual response: I am a lady and love being a woman. I am a child of God and do my best to live as I believe I ought to live. I am a mother of 2 grown daughters whom I love with every ounce of my being. I believe that my purpose in life is to help bring some semblance of joy to any person with whom I come in contact.
On the matter of "Gay Marriage": This country is all about the almighty dollar whether or not people have the intestinal fortitude to admit that. The unconstitutional tax income on which this country depends, has functioned as is for many decades. Now, suppose that 10% of the government's income dropped by about 15%, what would happen to the economy? I can only guess the effect would result in 3 to 4 BILLION dollars lost every year when a hypothetical 20% of tax-paying "heads-of-household" and "single"s suddenly file "married, filing jointly". In my opinion, THAT is ALL that the issue is about. The government officials and all of you "gay-marriage haters" just hide behind the mask of "God blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." If YOUR God is what YOU SAY it is - then I feel sad for you, because you canNOT know, truly know God's love.
3.
Posted by: Kelly Mattingly | October 15, 2007 8:42 PM
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JJ:
You know, reading your hate-filled posts is really sad. I'm so disappointed that what sounded like an interesting, if not entirely understood system in Eclatarianity is just another religious front for hating people you know nothing about.
Would you treat your children this way if they came and told you they were gay?
If you're bothered by gay marriage, don't marry one.
Posted by: Priver | October 15, 2007 7:43 PM
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God's Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Posted by: Pablo | October 15, 2007 7:14 PM
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God says homosexuality is sin period. Therefore, Christians cannot accept homosexuality as good. Anyone who engages in sexual activities outside of God's plan (including sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman)is in sin. The only remedy for our sin loving nation is repentance.
Posted by: Pablo | October 15, 2007 7:12 PM
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Atrus:
I can't help but feel this is how decay begins.
If you mean that decay begins with the denial of basic rights to certain groups based on traits such as race or gender, then you're absolutely right.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 15, 2007 5:44 PM
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People who want to prohibit legal same-sex unions/marriages are religious bigots plain and simple.
I have been asking people for their reasons ever since Virginia proposed and then wrote this blatantly unfair gender discrimination into the State Constitution last year.
No one has given me a single civic reason that doesn't rely solely on their personal religious opinions. This thread illustrates all the typical examples.
So Virginia, the birthplace of religious liberty, has now written state sponsored religious bigotry into the very document that first established absolute religious liberty through church/state separation.
Patrick Henry might be cheering but Thomas Jefferson and James Madison are certainly rolling over in their graves!
Posted by: Freestinker | October 15, 2007 5:20 PM
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I can't help but feel this is how decay begins.
Posted by: Atrus | October 15, 2007 4:45 PM
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To all of those who are against gay "marriage", and claim that gays in civil unions have the same rights as a married couple, I give you the following hypothetical situation:
A gay couple from Massachusetts (or another state that recognizes full marriage rights) travels outside of the state on vacation. They get into a car accident in Virginia (a state that does not recognize gay marriage or civil unions). One partner is critically injured. The other partner has NO LEGAL RIGHT in that state to act as a voice for their injured partner.
Think marriage and civil unions are equal now?
Posted by: Athena | October 15, 2007 4:31 PM
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JJ:
**Note; a penis is a man's annal [homosexual] or in each others mouth is not normal behavior! Same for Lesbians suckling on verginia nor dyeking with artificial mans penis , stuff like that1**
Just curious - are you ok with a man's penis in a woman's anus? Or a man's penis in a woman's mouth? Have you ever given a woman cunnilingus? Or do you only approve of missionary position/lights out/get it over with quick sex?
**When a straight sytem of government [a natural majority OF SUCH FOLKS] gives gay's certain rights [like in Massachusettes and New Jersey] then that does not mean that given gays the right to go from giving-one-inch to gays should mean they want a mile so to speaketh here!**
When a government gives individuals the right to legally register themselves as a household unit (ie marry) and rewards that registration with specific perqs unique to that registration (eg inheritance of Social Security, automatic custody of children in the event of spousal death, etc), it must not limit the availability of said registration by gender. To give gay people an inch and straight people a mile is discriminatory.
**SO; IT's all about SATISFACTION ya????**
I don't know about you, but satisfaction is a pretty important criterion for marriage in MY opinion.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 15, 2007 4:31 PM
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JJ:
Chill - usually when they "hold for approval" it's because the filters have flagged something that resembles a no-no word or the post has too many links embedded in it.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 15, 2007 3:42 PM
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ThishowIseeit:
**Civil union is a basic human right. Marriage is just a name to a union of two person of opposite
sexual emotional and physical atraction. You are free to coin a name for homosexual union. They both have the same civil value.**
Actually, the way current law is written, they don't. For example, civil union does not allow for spousal inheritance of federal benefits (such as Social Security). Marriage does.
Basically, states that offer civil unions are free to pick and choose which of the state-governed rights associated with marriage they wish to include in and exclude from civil unions. And civil unions are not necessarily portable across state lines - in other words, a stste that does not have civil unions for same sex couples does not have to recognize the rights granted to them by the state in which the union was performed. I was married in Louisiana, but my husband and I are legally recognized as married in every state of the union. Not so with my lesbian friends who were legally married in Massachusetts. They are not considered married in Louisiana,and have none of the rights associated with marriage here.
**Tax forms and other forms should only ask: are you in a civil union?**
Agreed - IF that term applies equally to hetero and same-sex couples. To be legally the same entity, it has to have the same terminology.
**Second: bisexual outnumber the homosexual.**
Not sure what your point is here.
**Bisexual DO HAVE A CHOICE.**
Not exactly. Most bisexuals are more strongly attracted one way or the other. It's not like they have this sexual smorgasbord spread out n front of them from which they graze and nibble all their lives. Like anyone else, they have a choice about who they have sex with, but not who they're attracted to.
**Third: The US Supreme Court has never used the name gay; they use homosexual or bisexual or heterosexual. Gay often mean a bisexual.**
Gay may be incorrectly used to describe bisexuals - technically, it only applies to homosexual men. Often, the acronym BGLT is used - Bisexual-Gay-Lesbian-Transgender.
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 15, 2007 3:29 PM
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Julia - You write that the "gay movement" has dechristianized Christianity. First of all, the Christian obsession with homosexuality is a thoroughly modern phenomenon. Dante, who explicated the entire Christian world view of an age far more pious than ours, regarded homosexual activity as a trivial sin on the level of gluttony. Secondly, don't you find it odd that Jesus Christ never mentioned the subject? It seems to me that it's modern fundamentalist Christians who've done an excellent job of removing Christ from the religion.
Posted by: James | October 15, 2007 2:30 PM
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To Wendy J. Payne,
Civil union is a basic human right. Marriage is just a name to a union of two person of opposite
sexual emotional and physical atraction. You are free to coin a name for homosexual union. They both have the same civil value. Tax forms and other forms should only ask: are you in a civil union?
Second: bisexual outnumber the homosexual. Bisexual DO HAVE A CHOICE.
Third: The US Supreme Court has never used the name gay; they use homosexual or bisexual or heterosexual. Gay often mean a bisexual.
Posted by: ThishowIseeit | October 15, 2007 2:29 PM
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lepidopteryx,
Nice point!
Gay people have to pay taxes, and have to report for jury duty, when called.
A judge is a publicly elected official whose salary is paid by taxpayers.
Why should a commited gay couple not be able to be issued a marriage license and then be married by the judge that could hold them in contempt for not reporting for jury duty? What is the problem with a secular government recognizing the union the same as any other?
Some have a problem with using the word "marriage". I hear, "If they just didn't insist on using THAT word". I would argue that the term Civil Union should be used for ANY union recognized by the government...gay or straight. Let the churches, or individual couples define "marriage". Let the government recognize Civil Unions for all couples, because in this secular society, that's really what they are.
Can anyone give a reason against gay marriage that isn't founded in religion or the "slippery slope" mentioned above?
Posted by: Respectably Gay Christian | October 15, 2007 2:24 PM
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JJ:
What exactly have you got against gay people having equal civil rights? Do you think same sex intercourse is icky? Fine - stop wasting your time imagining same sex couples in flagrante delicto. The fact that fantasizing about it doesn't give you a chubby doesn't mean that you have the right to deny others basic civil rights.
Is it because spit doesn't make babies? The ability to make babies is not required of heterosexual couples who wish to marry, so why deny homosexual couples that right based on the fact they can't produce progeny together? When my husband and I married, we were both infertile - he due to radiation therapy for cancer, me due to menopause. We couldn't make a baby together if the fate of the free world rested on our spawn. Should we have been denied the right to marry, since our knocking boots is non-generative?
When same sex marriage is legalized, no one will force you to marry another man. No one will annul your marriage to your wife. Your marriage will be exactly the same relationship it has always been. Same sex couples will simply have all the same legal rights associated with marriage that straight couples have. (And civil unions don't confer ALL those rights, nor are they portable across state lines and national boundaries the way hetero marriage is, so civil unions are NOT simply marriage by another name - they are still a way of relegatig same sex couples to second class status). Why are you so unwilling to share the wealth?
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 15, 2007 2:05 PM
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Valerie Benson,
Got it!
...tee hee
Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2007 2:04 PM
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As a lesbian I have read these posts on evangelicals many times, and the premise with them is the same- homosexuality is a choice, and an evil one at that. I wasn't "taught" to be gay nor did I make a conscious "choice". That is absurd logic! I have known I was gay since I was 6 years old. These conservatives refuse to read the plethora of social research in peer-reviewed literature that shows their heterosexist discrimination and ignorance causes depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts/attempts, and substance abuse by gays and lesbians. They misunderstand Scripture and use it to maintain their position of superiority and majority, blatantly disregarding Christ's love and acceptance for all. Marriage is a basic human and civil right, NOT a heterosexual privilege. The only "threat" to marriage is the denial of its status and protections for couples and families who love each other.
Posted by: Wendy J Payne | October 15, 2007 1:54 PM
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Sometimes I wonder how many times the story must be repeated before everything collapses and we have to start all over again. Humanity boasts on being the most intelligent creatures and yet we make the same mistakes over and over again. Look at Sodom and Gomorra, the Ceasar's in the Roman Empire, fashion designers and their urge for having near skeletal faces as their models. Looking really thin is the only way a girl can look like a guy. She loses all her beauty, stamina and health... If Evangilists really believe in a superior being then yes, they will help their neighbor and love them as themselves. But to agree with and foster unrighteous behavior is something totally different. Why don't they just call themselves followers of someting else and leave God to the ones who truly mean it with all their hearts, mind , and soul. I'm not sure they have anything clear. Even heterogeneous sex must be handled with care. We must all be careful that we do not steer away from what keeps human behavior within a logical and reasonable boundary. By now we should know about this enough!
Posted by: Eloisa Rodriguez | October 15, 2007 1:53 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them out. There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams and{ soul travel } and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 years missing time period} thats a good chunk of time between Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God. The 12 year gap between Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp { everything between that time was erased.} But it is suppose to be an unbroken line of eck masters. The basic tenet of eck is to sing the sacred word HU an ancient name of God blue light blue star. and to practise "unconditional love" and focus on the mahanta.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:53 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them out. There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams and{ soul travel } and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 years missing time period} thats a good chunk of time between Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God. The 12 year gap between Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp { everything between that time was erased.} But it is suppose to be an unbroken line of eck masters. The basic tenet of eck is to sing the sacred word HU an ancient name of God blue light blue star. and to practise "unconditional love" and focus on the mahanta.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:52 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them . There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams ans soul travel and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 year missing time period{ betwwen Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:39 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them . There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams ans soul travel and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 year missing time period{ betwwen Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:39 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them . There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams ans soul travel and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 year missing time period{ betwwen Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:39 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them . There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams ans soul travel and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 year missing time period{ betwwen Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:38 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them . There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams ans soul travel and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 year missing time period{ betwwen Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:38 PM
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I was reviewing your list of religions and I noticed that you left quite a few of them . There is a religion known as ECKANKAR that came out many years ago in the 1960s and it was first publicized by Brad Steiger in the book IN MY SOUL I AM FREE by Paul Twitchell. Paul twitchell had traveled ezxtensively all over the world and had studied the "out of body" near death experiences and he came out with a series of techniiques for leaving the body and visiting heaven that you did not have to physically die to visit the heavens. He wrote Letters to Gail his wife and the Shariyat-ki_Sugmad. I was just surprised that I did not see ECKANKAR listed in your categories of beliefs because it deals with dreams ans soul travel and out of body and near death. The teachings were not an organized religion but were more of a study group and then after Paul Twichell started the teachings in Menlo Park he translated died in 1971 and darwin gross his apprentice took the job as a spiritual mentor for the organization for 12 years and trained a successor who immediately sued him for all rights to ECKankar and that was in the 1980s( 12 year missing time period{ betwwen Paul Twitchell and Harold klemp the guy running the program now. Its been around since the 1960s. Paul twitchell was a spiritual giant and humble man.It teaches about the sound and light of God.
Posted by: valerie benson | October 15, 2007 1:38 PM
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"Love" doesn't include denying human rights. So, it is nothing but a dishonest exercise for you to even ask this question about a man who thinks gay marriage is "bad."
As long as the evangelical party line opposes gay marriage, there has been NO change.
You are giving Daly WAAAAAAAY too much credit. Why?
Posted by: ccatmoon | October 15, 2007 1:25 PM
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Julia wrote:
"It is not a tenet of Christianity to change what is labeled a sin into something other than sin..."
Julia,
When was the last time a sermon was preached in your church condemning divorce?
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | October 15, 2007 1:18 PM
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"According to a new study ... and they complain that they don't get enough guidance from their pastors in how to apply Christ's message of love to their gay friends."
The problem, so clearly demonstrated here, is that people like this don't think for themselves - they look to be told what to do and think! Pathetic.
Posted by: Rolling her eyes | October 15, 2007 1:09 PM
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Moroever, what exactly is the point of this article? That religiously extreme bigotry and ignorance are somehow more palatable if they're presented with a smile? Does the KKK need fabulous new sheets and better PR?
Posted by: Benjamin Haag | October 15, 2007 12:49 PM
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BTW...I just noticed I forgot to put my name on one of my posts...I am anonymous who wrote:
"Nice point Anonymous. You address the very post I intended to.
First of all...this is a Democratic Republic. Furthermore, our system of government was set up specifically to protect unpopular minorities.
Do you think that the civil rights movent..."
Sorry 'bout that.
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 15, 2007 12:45 PM
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Define "love and respect." Telling a gay man or woman that God loves him or her, contingent to an extent on a decision to somehow renounce one's identity, is neither respectful or loving; it is at best condescending and at worst cruelly manipulative. Yet organizations such as Exodus International thrive...
Posted by: Benjamin Haag | October 15, 2007 12:43 PM
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Even as a straight man, I can see that there is no remotely reasonable argument against gay marriage that does not rely either on scripture, or a slippery slope argument (it will lead to leagal beastiality). NONE!
1. We are a secular society. Law cannot be determined based only on scripture. If the two coincide, so be it, but scripture alone is irrelevant in detrmining the law of this nation. Period!
2. Slippery slope arguments are fallacies. The argument that pedophilia, or beastiality will have to be legalized next overlooks the fact that neither of those situations is consentual between two adults. It is BS!
Posted by: In All Fairness... | October 15, 2007 12:42 PM
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For a good discussion of homosexuality from a Christian perspective, I recommend Richard B. Hayes, "The Moral Vision of the New Testament: A Contemporary Introduction to New Testament Ethics" Harper & Collins, 1996 pp. 379-406.
Peace,
Rip
Posted by: D.W. Van Winkle | October 15, 2007 12:39 PM
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JULIA;
No gay person has gone to any church asking for your list of sins to be changed. It seems to me that some churches cannot respect the division between church and state and want (successfully so far) influence the legislative process, opressing a segment of society that they (churches) feel is in contradiction with their believes.
Gays just want the same rights that all citizens in a secular society should have. What is a sin for you is just a way of life for somebody else.
Who is the one with the problem?
Posted by: Sancho1 | October 15, 2007 12:39 PM
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"Essentially, the gay movement has succeeded in deChristianizing Christianity: in the current Episcopal church, the cross was taken down at the most recent general convention and replaced with flags; the Bible was condemned as hate material; and there is a movement to take Jesus out of hymns, etc."
Gay memebers of a particular denomination bringing change within that the denomination is not the same as all gay people demanding equal rights and protection under the laws of the United States of America.
Weak, weak, WEAK argument!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2007 12:33 PM
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Joet:
I find myself in agreement with much of what you said. Underlying your observations is the question, “Why should the state have the power to define marriage so long as it does not bring harm to minors who are incapable of informed consent? Surely, if the state were to become hostile to the Christian faith, churches would not like a powerful state that could define marriage in a way that is unfavorable for them.
The merit of your solution is that it allows the state to fulfill its proper functions (life, liberty and property [Locke] or life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness [Jefferson] and it allows religious freedom. What it does not allow is for the religious to impose their private morality on others regardless of the social contract. One of the things I appreciate about the U.S.A.’s constitution and its amendments are the rule of the majority which is tempered by minority rights.
Peace,
Rip
Posted by: D.W. Van Winkle | October 15, 2007 12:27 PM
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G. Gonzalez,
Are you related to the former Attorney General? You sound as if you are.
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | October 15, 2007 12:23 PM
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It is a tenet of Christianity to love each other as they are. It is also a tenet of Christianity to acknowledge that we are all sinners.
It is not a tenet of Christianity to change what is labeled a sin into something other than sin, and this is what the gays want the church to do. In fact, they are demanding it.
Essentially, the gay movement has succeeded in deChristianizing Christianity: in the current Episcopal church, the cross was taken down at the most recent general convention and replaced with flags; the Bible was condemned as hate material; and there is a movement to take Jesus out of hymns, etc.
A religion without respect for the Bible, a cross, and Jesus may be a religion, just not a Christian one.
And so the fights ensue: for the church.
Posted by: Julia | October 15, 2007 12:17 PM
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There is no demarking line between bisexuals and
homosexuals and to make things complicated the term gay is in some circles used for both groups, creating confusion at times intentionally.Better avoid the term gay unless you define it.
A bisexual has choices but not from the start: in some youths, first comes the sexual atraction to the same sex and later to the opposite, but for others is viceversa. Actress Ann Heche at first she identified herself as homosexual, later as bi.
So be clear before starting a discussion on gay persons. Young bisexual should slowly make their
own choice over several years without being influenced by how much or how little the religious community love the homosexuals. Try not to influence the young ones one way or the other.
Posted by: ThishowIseeit | October 15, 2007 12:11 PM
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Nice point Anonymous. You address the very post I intended to.
First of all...this is a Democratic Republic. Furthermore, our system of government was set up specifically to protect unpopular minorities.
Do you think that the civil rights movent for blacks was successful JUST because all black people suddenly banded together and voted it into being? Absurd! Black people are a minority that makes up approximately 12% of the US population. Not all are old enough to vote, so even if all of them get together and vote, they do not have the numbers to effect change in that way alone. It requires a system of government, such as ours, to recognize injustice and protect ALL citizens...the Constitution provides a system for redress of grievances and involves more than JUST majority rule.
Plain majority rule has NEVER been the way this country operates.
G. Gonzales posts: "They can be gay; they can teach; they can work; they can have fun; but the issue is why they want to redefine marriage with something as taboo, immoral, and biologically incorrect as gay marriage."
The desire is not actually to redefine marriage. The desire is to have the current CIVIL and FEDERALLY LEGAL definition INCLUDE them. There has been no widespread demand for churches and various religions to change their opinions, just for the equal right to go to the justice of the peace, or a church that will recognize the union, and to have the GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE recognize it by offering the same benefits and responsibilites as any other couple.
The reverse bigotry argument is hollow and a smoke screen. No straight people are put out by the opinions or political desires of the gay community. C'mon...honestly!
Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2007 12:10 PM
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"Is the presence of Daly at the head of what is arguably the country's most politically powerful conservative Christian group more evidence of a shift by evangelicals toward the center? Or is this alleged shift simply cosmetic?"
Good question. By analogy, the election of a woman, Ingrid Mattson, as the president of the Islamic Society of North America came as a major public image adjustment for Muslims--who are so often stereotyped as male chauvinist...
...but then look at the remainder of the governing echelon of ISNA, and it remains 100% male. Cosmetic reform? Given the unaltered male power structure, I remain skeptical that Ms. Mattson's presidency is more substantive than cosmetic.
So I would suggest, for your question about FOTF, to look beyond the public faces at the organizational leadership structure as a whole.
Posted by: Jannah bint Hannah | October 15, 2007 12:09 PM
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G. GONZALEZ:
**Why do people act like gays are the victim? They can be gay; they can teach; they can work; they can have fun; but the issue is why they want to redefine marriage with something as taboo, immoral, and biologically incorrect as gay marriage. Nobody is preventing them from being "together"; there are even some states that allow civil unions. But why do gays not even accept that...?**
Because separate but equal is an oxymoron. As for moral issues regarding homosexuality, I don't see it as immoral, but if you do, then I suggest you simply not take a lover of your own gender. Problem solved.
As for biology, lots of straight people who either don't want or can't have children are allowed to marry and enjoy all the legal and social benefits thereof, so why not same-sex couples?
**Has anybody noticed that laws are changing because of the intolerance of many (not all) gays (not to mention atheists by the way...thanks Michael Newdow, for trying to destroy this country); has anyone noticed that gays (and atheists) are the minority; so why then are the minority changing the rules and laws?**
While we're at it then, let's repeal those amendments that gave minorities the right to vote. After all, it's not like the opinionsor rights of minrities count, is it? Wait a sec - this just in: one of the purposes of our Bill of Rights is to prevent the rights of the minority from being trampled by the majority.
**Last time I checked this was a democracy, not an oligarchy.**
Actaully, it's not a democracy, it's a representaive republic.
**(A question, why is it that a straight person can be labeled as a bigot and intolerant of gays' views, but gays cannot be called intolerant of straights' views? Can someone clear me up on that, because that sounds to me like.....hypocrisy)**
I don't hear any gay people petitioning for straight people to be denied the right to marry. Maybe that has something to do with the bigot label, hmm?
Posted by: lepidopteryx | October 15, 2007 12:04 PM
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Let's just start with separation of church and state. Any denomination is free to preach that homosexuality is wrong as a matter of faith (despite biological evidence not known in biblical times) and any believer is free to believe that. And any denomination is likewise free to withhold sacramental marriage to whomever they please on religious grounds. But the civil proceeding is not a sacramental marriage (nor would the church ceremony be a civil marriage recognized by the state if your minister didn't get a license to perform the civil ceremony at the same time). From there I would simply posit that religion's role is over, and if the state thinks it's fitting and proper to allow gays to form relationships with the legal characteristics of marriage (property ownership, health insurance and consent authority, etc.) that's for the state. Even Bill O'Reilly favors civil unions. Next step. I cannot for the life of me understand how, if two gays in a civil union want to call themselves married, why I or anyone else should care, or lift one finger to stop them. What earthly difference can it make whether we call the civil union a civil union that sure looks like a marriage, or just a marriage. Our church's can still point out that it's not a sacramental marriage, the biblical definition is preserved, and everyone should be happy. I must be smoking something.
Posted by: JoeT | October 15, 2007 11:52 AM
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A note to G. Gonzalez... here in Georgia, you can lose your job and be kicked out of an apartment just for being gay. There is no protection extended to gay people in both these areas and others. So if an apartment building owner decided to kick out a gay tenant or an employer decided to fire a person simply for being gay, they can do so and are protected by law.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2007 11:52 AM
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There is really no point in gay people attempting a dialogue with evangelicals until they accept the fact of sexual orientation - people don't choose which sex they are sexually and romantically attracted to, though they can choose to live an honest life. It would require them to recognize that the Bible does not contain and address everything pertaining to human life; the ancient Hebrews and early Christians had no conception of pyschology - people were what they did, period. To accept this would mean that homosexuality can't be sinful, since there's no Christian tradition of some people being endowed with more sin than others simply for being what they are apart from any actions (some gay people ARE celibate) or taking the absurd Catholic position that everyone's sexuality is a gift from God but God calls on gay people to remain celibate. All this aside, I've learned over the years that honesty isn't a strong point with politically involved evangelicals and I suspect that this gentler seeming stance is largely meant for public consumption as they come to recognize that the rest of society is leaving their intolerance (and them) behind.
Posted by: James | October 15, 2007 11:51 AM
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The position taken by commenter g gonzales slants the issue of tolerance as only a true kool-aid drinking dobson-cult follower can. No one can clear you up on this G, because you have no desire to understand, only to judge. I could type until my arms fall off, but you will never get it because you dont want to get it. I have a question for you though, if gay marriage is such a threat to the family, answer me this, how is my ability to marry my partner of 22 years more a threat to the family than a straight couple who marries, has children and then divorces, leaving the children without the "stable" life you demand. If the "sanctity of marriage" and "preserving families" is really so important to you bible thumping hyprocrites, ban divorce.
Posted by: Anonymous | October 15, 2007 11:44 AM
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Coincidentally, the title you chose is very similar to that of a sermon preached by Rev. John Yates at The Falls Church recently. He took a similar line to Daly: Christians should not approve of homosexual lifestyles, but should take note that Jesus treated people of all backgrounds with love, so an angry response to homosexuality is generally not helpful.
Posted by: William | October 15, 2007 11:43 AM
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I think it is very obvious to anyone with a brain that being gay is a result of biology not choice.Why would an intelligent person choose a life style that people make fun of and hate with a passion?However being gay is still not a normal sexual state of being regardless of political correctness.
Posted by: fcsanders | October 15, 2007 11:37 AM
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Dobson needs to do the world a favor by reuniting with his butt buddy jerry falwell in the bowels of hell. Soft or hard edge, hate is hate.
Posted by: pj4521 | October 15, 2007 11:34 AM
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Why do people act like gays are the victim? They can be gay; they can teach; they can work; they can have fun; but the issue is why they want to redefine marriage with something as taboo, immoral, and biologically incorrect as gay marriage. Nobody is preventing them from being "together"; there are even some states that allow civil unions. But why do gays not even accept that...?
Has anybody noticed that laws are changing because of the intolerance of many (not all) gays (not to mention atheists by the way...thanks Michael Newdow, for trying to destroy this country); has anyone noticed that gays (and atheists) are the minority; so why then are the minority changing the rules and laws? Last time I checked this was a democracy, not an oligarchy. (A question, why is it that a straight person can be labeled as a bigot and intolerant of gays' views, but gays cannot be called intolerant of straights' views? Can someone clear me up on that, because that sounds to me like.....hypocrisy)
Posted by: G. GONZALEZ | October 15, 2007 11:31 AM
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It is getting much easier to find evangelicals with authentic Bible-belt credentials expressing love and support for gay friends and neighbors.
The found out gay people have money too.
The question yet to be answered is what happens when the ministry finally decides to come out of the closet and admit they are all gay. They'll probably edit out, "men laying with men" in the Bible and demand marriage before sex, say things like, "mixed marriages don't work - so marry someone of your own gender."
Is homosexuality natural population control? Is the population of earth reaching the critical point or is it already beyond?
My broker suggest a diversified portfolio of oil companies and oil service companies.
Posted by: BGone | October 15, 2007 11:25 AM
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It's clear from every study that, as they grow up, every new stratum of young people is more and more tolerant of gayness.
In a couple of decades from now, when it's clear that absolutely nobody is buying anti-gay rhetoric any more, Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals will find a new group to scapegoat, torment, and demonize.
The question is: who will it be?
Posted by: Norrie Hoyt | October 15, 2007 11:04 AM
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Regarding your reference to the study by the Bama Research Group, those young people could and should give guidance to their pastors in how to apply Christ's loving message to Gays.
Posted by: J. Humphries | October 15, 2007 10:51 AM
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