The Gandhis and Their Moral Blind Spot

I find it interesting that Mr. Saperstein ends his salvo here by celebrating the role of Jews in mobilizing international efforts in Kosovo, Bosnia and Darfur. This is precisely the kind of response that Ghandi asserts to be the appropriate one, on the part of the Jews, given the wounds of the Jewish holocaust, as opposed to the hyper- militarized states of Israel and America.

I agree with Ghandi's assertions that Israel needs to reckon with its own violent policies in the face of a rising tide of international violence. And I agree with Arun Ghandi that Israel and the United States' solution of domination (whether pre-emptive or in response) cannot bring any kind of solution. And since these two players are by far the most powerful players in the world equation (and precisely because of the Jewish holocaust experience), force and domination should be their absolute last strategic aim and policy, not their preferred posture.

When I read Ghandi's words, I thought about two American examples of abominable cruelty that should be undeniably recognized as on par with the Jewish holocaust: the American slave trade and the slaughter and displacement of American indian populations. Some like to argue that these latter examples did not involve any similar attempt at wholesale extermination. Funnily enough, this argument, itself, smacks of racism.

Mr. Saperstein says, "the Holocaust was... rooted in the pseudo-scientific racialism that swept Europe for 100 years, which flourished in the fertile field of bigotry and dehumanization of the Jews that was a tragic manifestation of Christian anti-Semitism for two millennia." Does he think that this same "pseudo-scientific racialism" that was applied to Jews was not applied to other "races"? Vogue terms such as "savage" and "primitive" were often applied to foster the dehumanization of people who were deemed "less than human," and who, unlike the Jews, could never, under any circumstances, pass for white. And it is this latter fact, by the way, that may account for some of the gross disparity in hardships experienced by Jews, Black Americans and American Indians in the world today.

One of the things that I believe Ghandi was trying to say, and which gets swept under the rug by the one-sided public rebukes that his remarks elicited, is this: while the Jewish identity is indeed scarred by immense suffering, Jews DO NOT, contrary to popular opinion, have a corner on the market of depredation and despair. And precisely because of the high visibilty of the Jewish cause, symbolized by the example and behavior of the state of Israel, the Jewish people should be tireless champions of non-violence. But instead, much like the current US president, Israel's rhetoric of diplomacy rings hollow next to the violent policies and actions, as well as the justifications for the same, that continue to dictate events on the ground.

I find it curious that such a one-sided echo chamber can turn what, to any clear-thinking individual, was an unpopular but well-argued position, into an ant-semitic tirade. Curious because of the result: that noone need adress the crux of the argument.

I believe that Gandhi, the elder, was practicing excessive faith in his own methods rather than anti-semitism when he argued that nonviolence would have beaten Nazism.

Rabbi Saperstein, as so often, is correct when he argues that nonviolence actually has its limits. He also has proven, over many decades, that he does not support the excesses of Israel's practices.

This point can be made more effectively without bringing gratuitous labels of bigotry to the table, in my opinion.

Bill, OK let me get this straight, you think that Israel should continue to supply people who have sworn to destroy them and aid those who would kill them?

It is interesting to note that Israel does supply food and fuel to Gaza. You know Gaza, that place where the democratically elected government of Hamas calls for the murder of all Jews? So do you expect that the English should have supplied the Germans during the war? Yet, Israel still sends them food and electricity.

As to fuel, funny, the Palies still have enough for their rockets...

As to the idea that the Israelis are the terrorists, you are just insane. Go back to the loony bin.

As to the idea that the Israel lobby is the largest in the world, again son, you need to lay off the drugs. The Saudis have a vastly bigger lobby. So does the auto industry, the credit industry, the farm lobby and the tabbacco lobby - to name just a few of the lobbies that are vastly bigger.

Bill, OK let me get this straight, you think that Israel should continue to supply people who have sworn to destroy them and aid those who would kill them?

It is interesting to note that Israel does supply food and fuel to Gaza. You know Gaza, that place where the democratically elected government of Hamas calls for the murder of all Jews? So do you expect that the English should have supplied the Germans during the war? Yet, Israel still sends them food and electricity.

As to fuel, funny, the Palies still have enough for their rockets...

As to the idea that the Israelis are the terrorists, you are just insane. Go back to the loony bin.

As to the idea that the Israel lobby is the largest in the world, again son, you need to lay off the drugs. The Saudis have a vastly bigger lobby. So does the auto industry, the credit industry, the farm lobby and the tabbacco lobby - to name just a few of the lobbies that are vastly bigger.

I think it outrageous to go after Gandhi, when his main thesis is absolutely correct. He simply states what responsible Israelis also think (http://www.btselem.org/English/About_BTselem/index.asp)
Israel is the most violent force in the middle East, and Israel, and its terror against Palestinians has been the cause of most Islamic response against the West, mainly for our support of them.
We decry the Palestinian terrorist killings of innocent Israelis while totally ignoring the far greater number of women and children killed indiscriminately by the Israelis.
There is about a factor of four to one of deaths in every age group where Israel has killed Palestinians versus Palestinians killing those in Israel.
And your response comes at the time that Israel is brutally cutting off food, fuel and everything else to a million or more Palestinians.
The Jewish lobby in this country is the most powerful lobby in the world.
All someone has to do is point out facts, and if they reflect unfavorably on Israel, they all yell antisemitism. What BS!
I am a lifelong liberal democrat, who has always supported Israel---but am getting fed up with them conducting terror, while we get the retribution, because it is our money and our military equipment being used by Israel to kill Muslims.
There is an organization in Israel, of Israelis that fully agrees with the statements that I have made, and they maintain a record of death rates at the hands of Israel vrs. Palestinians. You should look at those numbers. (The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories)

Grant and Annonymous,

Do you two come from another planet? Really? Where do you get your stuff from? Radio Islam? Stormfront?

First off, most of those UN resolutions call for either peace, recognition of Israel or both. Since the Arabs and Iran refuse to do that, there is no deal and never was one.

Second off, there is a giant difference between a binding security council resolution and something pushed through the General Assembly by the Muslim Block for propaganda purposes.

Anon, the brave poster, who may just have to post as me again...

95% are Khazars? Are you insane? Are you on drugs? What is wrong with you? History has shown this? What jihadist/neo-nazi sources are you reading? Now if you want to talk about a people that do not exist as a people, try the Palistinians...

Remeber when they were Jordanians and Egyptians? That was not so long ago. Like 1967 - imbecile.

Genocide? You ARE a delusional madman... Genocide is the murder of an entire people. What is wrong with you? Genocide like Darfur? Like what happened to the Native Americans? That is genocide. It seems that the Palistinian population keeps growing... Genocide is a very serious word. It should not be used by delusional morons for cheap shots in a silly blog.

Grant and Annonymous,

Do you two come from another planet? Really? Where do you get your stuff from.

First off, most of those UN resolutions call for either peace, recognition of Israel or both. Since the Arabs and Iran refuse to do that, there is no deal and never was one.

Second off, there is a giant difference between a binding security council resolution and something pushed through the General Assembly by the Muslim Block for propaganda purposes.

Anon, the brave poster, who may just have to post as me again...

95% are Khazars? Are you insane? Are you on drugs? What is wrong with you? History has shown this? What jihadist/neo-nazi sources are you reading? Now if you want to talk about a people that do not exist as a people, try the Palistinians...

Remeber when they were Jordanians and Egyptians? That was not so long ago. Like 1967 - imbecile.

Genocide? You ARE a delusional madman... Genocide is the murder of an entire people. What is wrong with you? Genocide like Darfur? Like what happened to the Native Americans? That is genocide. It seems that the Palistinian population keeps growing... Genocide is a very serious word. It should not be used by delusional morons for cheap shots in a silly blog.

I hear a lot of phrases bandied about -"Israel's right to exist" and "Israel's right to defend itself." The U.S.- in its massive state of debt- has been giving $30 billion (probably more) to a population less than that of Massachusetts. Israel has plenty of high-tech military crap that the U.S. gave them and they can destroy the entire ME with their nukes. Palestine has rocks and unguided, shoddy rockets.
What about the Palestinians' right to exist and defend themselves? Or the right to return to the lands their ancestors had farmed peacefully for centuries? History shows that 95% of today's Jews are descendents of the Khazars, a violent group that converted to Juadism and never touched foot in present Israel or anywhere near it.
These phrases about Israel's "rights" are an affront to thinking people who can't help but be disgusted by the genocide occuring in the occupied territories, with the blessing of the U.S. government.
Before you blindly support Israel's right to exist, try reading Jack Bernstein's book about being an American Jew in Israel.

The essence is Israels right to exist.

However, by not obeying 70 UN Declarations, they have broken the rules. Where is the red card?

Send them off ref. They just lost their right to exist.

Mr. David Saperstein,

I fully support your views about the need for the Jews to protect themselves from hostile Arab neighbors. What you say about the moral blind spots of Gandhi's thinking is so true. Unfortunately this muddled thinking of the likes of Mr. Arun Gandhi is what continues to be used for policy making in India and Hindus are the victims of these policies. How can you make peace with someone who has sworn to eliminate you? The Hindus too suffered events like the holocaust, but hardly gets mentioned as it is not politically correct or expedient. Gandhi's non violence is a weak man's non violence and not one that comes from a position of strength.

EARTH TO JOE! EARTH TO JOE!

You are not the only Joe in the world. In fact, there are THOUSANDS of men named JOE. There are lots of us, and we are everywhere. Sometimes we are called Joesph. Sometimes, we go by Joey. And, sometimes we are just called Joe. Heck, there's even something called a cup of Joe. It was named for Josephus Daniels, the former Secretary of the Navy. But don't worry, Joe, a cup of Joe contains only a small amount of actual Joe. So, climb down from Mount Olympus, try to humble yourself for a moment, and face the reality that your name is not unique.

LONG LIVE ISRAEL! And, long live the Joes!

I am astonished at the persistence of my alter self.
Another post that I did NOT write. Is the one that starts.

"To those of you who disparage Israel, I would like you to all take note of the recent benevolence that the country extended to the completely unworthy Hammies and Palis..."

Not my words. I did not write that. However, I would like to ask the person who writes in my name exactly why he thinks it is OK for Hamas and the other terror groups, who are widely supported by the Palestinians, to launch rocket attacks every day on civilians in Israel. If not trying to shut them down their borders to stem the flow of munitions, perhaps you would prefer an incursion? Perhaps you would like to see a blood bath?

What planet are you from? Actually, it does not matter. The child has gotten away with much. He feels empowered by doing this, which no doubt helps comfort his issues with some deep seated inferiority complex.

One must ask, why would someone do this? First, he posts as anonymous, then as a couple of other names (because he wants to show that others agree with him, poor fellow is not so alone!) and finally, he likes to post under my name.

He isn't very bright. He actually believes he is proving something. Given that he has made anti gay remarks as well, I imagine that his nonsense all stems from frustrated sexuality. He must feel his manhood is very lacking. Of course, from his antics, it is clear that his virtue certainly is.

It is possible that his lack of social grace comes from bad parenting. Perhaps his father abandoned him, leaving him with no proper male role model. Perhaps his mother was a prostitute and his father would be one of fifty candidates. Actually, any number of things in early childhood could cause someone to behave like this. But at the end of the day, we are dealing with someone who is very broken inside and very weak. Perhaps, he is that awkward guy that no woman will even take to bed out of mercy. Perhaps he was just that smelly pimply kid that the more popular boys beat up - and he never got over it. Perhaps he just has malfunctioning or abnormally small genitals and this is his way of compensating.

But what is striking is that he can not stand for himself. A few posts up he writes some craziness that he was baiting me. It is interesting. I mean does he really think that many people are still reading this thread? You can ask what does the little fellow have to gain?

That gives the answer as to his mental state. He actually feels that he is in a fight - and that somehow he is winning it. He has fallen so low, that this is what he hopes for as a "victory."

Amazing. Given that this is the case, Alter Joe, I feel for you little "man." I'll let you "win" this one. no doubt it will be the only "victory" in your sorry and pathetic existence.

To those of you who disparage Israel, I would like you to all take note of the recent benevolence that the country extended to the completely unworthy Hammies and Palis. After restricting fuel, food and medical supplies to teach them a lesson in obedience, the extremely charitable Israelis sent in some necessary supplies.

Yes, some innocent babies, children, and old people died because of thew recent blockade, but fewer hammies and palis will die now that the rebellious ones have learned their lesson and been brought to heel. So, all you Jew-haters and Jew-baiters can quit complaining.

Just for the record, I did *not* write the post that says:

"If you look at the response to Gandhi's statements which in itself are all true, you will see how our society has already fallen to the sympathy of the Jewish community."

That would be the work of an extremely immature person who believes he is being clever by writing in my name. He has already had about ten of his fake posts pulled. Alas, the net is full of crazies. I'm sure that someone thinks his little cyber-jihad is cute.

So, if you see an anti Israel, anti Jewish post, it isn't mine. It is merely the rantings of an unpleasant child with no manners.

Just for the record, I did *not* write the post that says:

"If you look at the response to Gandhi's statements which in itself are all true, you will see how our society has already fallen to the sympathy of the Jewish community."

That would be the work of an extremely immature person who believes he is being clever by writing in my name. He has already had about ten of his fake posts pulled. Alas, the net is full of crazies. I'm sure that someone thinks his little cyber-jihad is cute.

So, if you see an anti Israel, anti Jewish post, it isn't mine. It is merely the rantings of an unpleasant child with no manners.

I think that free speech comes with problems and Mr. Arun Gandhi may loose his tenure.

The truth is that Tel Aviv would one day have to grant Political Rights to the occupied Palestinians. That is a slow realization sinking into Tel Aviv.

The Israel-Palestinian issue would be swamped under the wave of globalization.

I request the author to note this...

Indians were also ruthlessly tortured under the British (read Jallianwala Bagh for an example).

Does that mean we are still hung up on it? IMHO, Indians are the biggest investors in UK. We would possibly end up buying Jaguar and Land Rover - some British iconic brands...

Let go of hatred... Remember what Buddha said: Nothing in the world is constant, everything is changing. It is this denial of impermanence that is the problem of Tel Aviv. And by extension the Jewish Community.

Altar Joe:

Yes, I did! And commented on it in two posts. But since you obviously didn't read those, we're not really having a conversation here so I should probably ignore you.

If you look at the response to Gandhi's statements which in itself are all true, you will see how our society has already fallen to the sympathy of the Jewish community. When do we ever hear about Burma now, after the hype, it has disappeared, or Kenya and other nations with ethical problems. The Jewish community has the capital to create a lot of attention and our society has fallen at their feet and do their every whim, help supply us to fight Pakistan, OK we'll send you the weapons by the end of the week.

Altar Joe:

What about the abuses the Palestinians inflict on themselves? Electing criminal leadership that even has made the Saudis recoil. I bet the majority of Gazans wish the Israelis would come back. In fact I read an Arab journalist in an Arab paper who said as much. At least there would be employment and order then. If I find that article from the Arab journalist will you say "Altar Joe sorry he call Joe bad names." ? Will you give yourself a hand if Iran, not Israel, starts WWIII? All you have is ad hominem attacks. You are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You can't really answer the questions posed by Joe three days ago.

Kelev Ra

Believe it or don't, I saw the movie and rather liked it.

But Bad Dog in Hebrew would be a cool handle in any case.

And I have read a lot from and about Ayaan Ali.

It was great chatting with you and I really hope to see you on the boards here in future.

If you read them with any regularity, you will find that almost every time there is a Jewish article at all, all manner of truly awful people come out of the woodwork.

It was two days ago that I decided to actually jump in because I was tired of them.

Be well my friend!

Joe

Hey, my attack on the alter poser was expunged!! Shows how unproductive anger is.
Joe, nobody mentioned, much less answered your questions of nearly three days ago so its fair to say you won the debate. Bad news: that's faint praise here.

Kelevra is a reference to "Lucky Number Slevin", a kick-%ss film starring the great Ben Kingsley.
Morgan Freeman and Bruce Willis were good too. Kelevra's mentor is Mr. Goodkat! I already gave away too much. The film is about rivaling black and Jewish mobsters.

Check out the Arab women dissidents I mentioned in a post above, and also Brigette Gabriel and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. You probably are already familiar with them.
They are amazing! There is hope.
Muslims, CAIR, the Post's guy Patel love to criticize/minimize Ayaan Ali, as if its not bad enough that she was mutilated by Muslims.

Must work now!

Thank you Post. It seems that someone noticed some of what was going on here.

Hello, Kelev Ra

This is the actual Joe. I hope you understand why I became so strident earlier. It is interesting that the Post rules are very clear, right at the top of the page about posting in other's names.

Then again, the "monitors" let posts that call Jews cockroaches and deny the holocaust - or worse, gloat about it stay up also. The reality is that this place is full of degenerates and the Post does not care.

For the record, I have been very much enjoying our chat. In some sense, I suppose you should be flattered that he is putting homosexual slurs on you as well. I mean, to a mind as tiny as his trying to call someone gay is a giant insult.

*****

As to my "alter poser" and apparently haha and Kelev's "alter poser."

Also for the record, you truly are an insane loser. I mean you really are a loser. A complete and utter failure in life. You have no words of your own? You have no thoughts of your own? Do you think you are fooling anyone?

Think about it for a moment, it is likely that there are at most 10 people following this thread anymore. I am really only here anymore to talk to Kelev Ra, do you think either of us is impressed by your antics?

Tell you what, you really do fight like what would be expected though. You cringe and cower and whine. You think silly, underhanded tricks are clever. You spew bile at others while still hiding and you contribute nothing. Yet, you can not stand on your own. How very, very HAMAS of you. And like them, you ain't nothing.

Why is there no fake hahaha? He feels left out!

Kelev,

I'm sure you realise that I did not write the previous post. I think we can completely establish that "Alter Joe's" motives are not very nice.

Ohh and to whomever is posting in my name, do you really think you are impressing anyone?

Your bravery is impressive!

Kelev,

I'm sure you realise that I did not write the previous post. I think we can completely establish that "Alter Joe's" motives are not very nice.

Kelev,

I hear your point entirely. I was very honest that I have absolutely no love of the NeoCons, but the New Left is no better. I see the two groups as a one two punch for this nation.

The Neocons are breaking it, and the "NeoPinks" will not buy it. The last thing you need to do is trash the economy and weaken your military in the course of destabilising whole regions, only to be followed by delusional self haters who want you to loose.

I can not stomach the Republicans. I still can not face people who push for things like ID and cutting taxes in the middle of a two-front war, while turning a blind eye to the social needs of Americans who aren't in the upper class or pressing enviromental concerns. While we are at it I think the notion that somehow they are the fiscally responsible ones is one of the greatest cons in history. They are terrible for the economy and have been for years.

On the other hand, I can not stomach the near suicidal surrender reflex aspect of the Leftists coupled with their virulent naivete. The issue is, if you read these boards long enough, they are not rooting for peace at all. They actually want to see parts of the West crumble - starting with Israel. They actually want nuclear weapons in the hands of regimes like Iran and have a deluded rationalization that another cold war would be a good thing.

Both sides are equally callous and uncaring and hypocritical. They just point their malice at different targets.

I have never been more discouraged in an election.

I will almost certainly pinch my nose and vote Democratic, but that is only because I see it as the lesser of evils. I can only pray that the Neopinks don't end up swaying the dems as badly as the neocons gained control of the Republicans.

Joe:

"Consider the blind eye that the New Left, just as obnoxious and foolish as the Neo-cons, turns to so many things that are completely counter-intuitive.
Their romance with Islam is only understandable to me in this context. If you have a better hypothesis, I would sincerely love to hear it."

Very good point. I can think of specific people in my life who this applies to.

I'm turning away from left and now consider myself independent. I can't rule out voting for a republican. Hell, I voted for Connie Morella! The fact that universities have become bastions of Israel bashing has had quite an effect on me. I've heard of J students practically apologizing for themselves!

See my last post about religious basis for Arab/Muslim OCID (Obsessive-Compulsive Israel Disorder).

Not sure about the alter-Joe's motivation.

Well, you know you've hit a nerve with the children when all they can do is type your name and then something silly.

Do you kids really think that anyone will believe that I am actually typing something for a feminine hygene product commercial?

Amazing that you would even try to do this.

Rather then typing my name and some nonsense, how about you answer my questions?

Kelev man, go easy on Joe, he has every right to call these bee-atchs whatever he wnats.

They say all sorts of sh!t and he kept cool for a long time. If the man needs to vent, he needs to vent.

Besides, I like watching bee-atchs get pwned.

Another set of thoughts about the extreme left. The hatred of white people who love their own culture and religion runs incredibly deep.

Consider the blind eye that the New Left, just as obnoxious and foolish as the Neo-cons, turns to so many things that are completely counter-intuitive.
Their romance with Islam is only understandable to me in this context. If you have a better hypothesis, I would sincerely love to hear it.

For example:

You would expect a leftist to be for womens' rights, yet the treatment of women in Islamic nations is horrific. Well beyond the Hijab and a near pathological fear of feminine sexuality, you have nations that sentence rape victims to public lashings or worse.

You would expect a leftist to be opposed to capital punishment, dismemberment and flogging - let alone brutal public execution by medieval means.

You would expect a leftist to be for free speech and the right to criticize religion. In fact you would expect the far left to be mistrustful of religious fanaticism in general, yet not one peep about the obscene reaction to the Mohammed cartoons, or for that matter the naming of a teddy bear.

You would expect a leftist to be opposed to genocide, I have yet to hear the Arabist left make a peep about Darfur.

You would expect the left - and all sane people to be opposed to nuclear proliferation, yet the argument seems to be "it's unfair that the Arabs don't have nukes too..." And let's be real, Islamics and nukes are a very, very scary combination. They are one set who might happily use them.

The list could be longer, but I'm sure that you see my point. It is baffling to me how this is.
Again the only explanation I can offer is that the left hates the western civilisation that birthed it so much, that they would rather see barbarians take it apart then stick up for their own supposed values.

Ok then we will talk seriously. There is a magnifying glass for several reasons.

For the extreme left, the Jewish state is everything that they can not fathom. The idea of white people who actually do not hate their own culture and religion being successful is offensive to them and it disrupts their idea of how the universe should work. If you start from the notion that you hate Western Culture, then of necessity, you must hate the Jews who provided the basis for so much of it.

Also, for many it is even more simple than that. They have the mental equation that if America does it, it must be evil, and they know that it is American policy to stand with Israel.

For the Arabs you need to look at the nature of an honor/shame society. The first sin that the Jews committed was having something that they wanted, i.e. a piece of land in a region that the Arabs wanted to dominate now that the Turks and the Europeans were no longer in power. 1948 was as much about a land grab on the part of the Arab states as hatred of Jews. The second sin they committed was that they are not Muslim, and it very much rankles the Muslim mind to think of even an inch of land which was once dominated by Muslim law becoming something else (like a democratic state in the hands of it's true owners). Remember that the 48 partition was a two state solution, the Jews got land that they ALREADY had. The Arabs said no to that. But the true sin of Israel in the minds of the Arabs, is that after five coordinated attempts to wipe out Israel, with calls to kill all the Jews, the Israelis refused to die, and won the wars. For that, the Arabs can never forgive.

I'm not interested in name-calling, I'd just like someone to please tell me why there is such a magnifying glass on Israel when there are far more horrifying things going on in the world than whats happening in Israel?

Don't attack a man, attack his argument.

An Israeli man (presumably secular) once told me he didn't give a damn about Jerusalem, they could have it if they wanted peace... but they don't want peace.

Or of course, Chip may be a centenarian like Ender... At which point, we are dealing with a middle class child in some dorm room.

Perhaps, he wrote a term paper (or even a manifesto!) on post 9-11 paranoia... His ranting has almost the correct tone to it. But, for my money I'm still leaning towards washed out hippie.

In any case, he is an amusing troll.

Thanks, Rob Roy, Kelev Ra and Voice and Hahaha.

Kelev,

Just looking at the writing style though it is likely that "Chip" is likely to be Frank or Red or both. He must be a very lonely and unimaginative cyber terror apologist.

I was thinking about his writing to me about being a post 9-11 person so that I can not trust. I'm actually older than he thinks but, that really doesn't matter. My point is, how can he think the previous Cold War period was less paranoid? I think we are dealing with an aging hippie who honestly just doesn't remember the Sixties - or the Seventies for that matter.

It is so sad to see the effects of long term drug abuse.

Anonymous:

And you're a dootiehead. Blah, blah, blah. You're boring. Whats your point? Did you address mine? Did you pore over jimena.org? Some Israelis committed atrocities, and therefore...? What? Because for every evil deed committed by some Israelis I can give you ten committed by Palis. "Anonymous", no, too many syllables, do you mind if I call you Chip? Chip, I have a question thats absolutely killing me. Whats with the Arab/Muslims' frightening obsession with Israel anyway? It's, like, in their DNA now. Not exactly an admirable characteristic. Israel this, Israel that. Because I think the Arab/Muslim nations have things they need to be a lot more gravely concerned about than Israel. Like, oh, I don't know, not utilizing the talents of half of their population. Lack of freedom. Drastic self-reformation. Is it really about the Palestinians? Because the Arabs/muslims treat themselves pretty dismally, and on a much larger scale than whats happening in Israel. I'm afraid they'd have to admit that. Why don't you "goggle" (as you say) "Hama massacre" ? Anyway, could I posit that the poisonous Koran has indoctrinated Arabs/Muslims with the idea that kafirs, especially Jews, as equal citizens in their midst, in their "empire", is unthinkable? Could that be the cause of that energy-consuming Israel obsession? One more thing: do you see "belligerent" Israel waging war with Egypt? No? What about Jordan? Are you beginning to see a pattern? Those countries have peace treaties with Israel. Chipster, here's the point: as soon as Arabs/Muslims change their attitudes, the Palestinian issue will resolve itself.
Now Chip, kelev ra not come out to play no more if Chip call kelev ra bad names!

ok dad, I won't make fun of the special kids on the special bus...

To Hahaha

It is wrong of you to say what you said. You are obviously a very disturbed and possibly drunk young man.

Your mother should have told you that it is rude to mock idiots. It is not their fault that they are stupid, and it hurts their feelings.

Peace out!

Good comment Rob,

Anonymous, Ender, Mohammed, Frank, Thopaine

It is a totally f'd up "game strategy" (sorry Joe, I don't know the math, but I know a fake when I see one too!) of the Islamofascists around the world to get their @sses kicked - wow one of him and several of you - and then go whining. Dude, you punks then try to turn what you do around and blame everyone else but yourself.

You got made into bee-atchs...

Answer the man's questions bee-atch!

I was watching this thread. It was awesome to see you get b-slapped.

Dude, I nearly peed myself laughing.

Hey anonymous, You mean like the massacre at Jennin that never happened?

Thanks Joe for putting the fight to these idiots.

REAL Americans know who their friends are, and we also know who supports our enemies.

Anonymous - courageous of you to share your name!

It's funny that you were asked many thought provoking questions, yet all you can do is bray like a jack@ss. I would like your answer to some of those. You were challenged multiple times and you chickened out.

Also,

before you rant about my religion check my tag,

Your claims to know history have been noted.

Joe and Kevlar, please just read about the 1956 Massacre at Kafr Kasem. I suspect you already Goggled it, and that's why you will not address it. Joe is nothing but a poor man's Bill Kristol, and Kavlar is his hapless lapdog.

Thanks Kelev Ra, It's nice to see another bad dog.

Seriously though, I understand that I will not win against those who can not face logic. I am not writing here to convince them of anything, and the second that they start flipping out and refusing to answer anything they simply show that they have nothing.

And that is the point. There are some, some small number, of those who might be reading this who need to see that the lies and propaganda of those who apologise for the terrorists does not go unchallenged.

Also, until I get bored with it, I do enjoy pointing out their silly lies and frauds. That part is cruel I admit.

Ohhh and I am not a college kid anymore. Haven't been for some time. But that said, please mr anonymous, answer a question of mine, just one of them...

Anonymous:

Ranting doesn't make your statements more compelling. I'm not a mindless sycophant, the guy just happens to be right. Convince me otherwise. Answer his questions. Kafr Kasem is an anomaly compared with what happens every day, every hour in the Arab/Moslem world. Talking about massacres, go enlighten yourself and look at http://www.jimena.org/ Maybe your hand-wringing is selective.

Thanks for the pity.
I don't fear Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan, or the posters at http://arabsforisrael.com/ and I've been to Jordan and the Gaza Strip and I know most Arabs just want to get by, just like everyone else. Don't put words into my mouth.
See, no abusive words. I don't want to bust an artery, like you.

Thanks Kelev Ra, It's nice to see another bad dog.

Seriously though, I understand that I will not win against those who can not face logic. I am not writing here to convince them of anything, and the second that they start flipping out and refusing to answer anything they simply show that they have nothing.

And that is the point. There are some, some small number, of those who might be reading this who need to see that the lies and propaganda of those who apologise for the terrorists does not go unchallenged.

Also, until I get bored with it, I do enjoy pointing out their silly lies and frauds. That part is cruel I admit.

Kelvra, Joe doesn't listen. He only preaches a sermon of hate, and you are nothing more than a mindless sycophant.

Kevlra, do you know about the Massacre at Kafr Kasem? No? Well, that doesn't surprise me.

Whatever.

Try to enjoy your life of hatred, distrust, and insecurity. Like Joe, did you come of age in the post-911 age? Did you grow up knowing nothing but fear. Ah, the good old days when the only thing we had to fear was fear. Now, fear all we get from people like noecons, the Bush people and people like you. Fear is what sustains you, and fear is what will destroy you. People like Joe and Bush know that people are more easily moved by fear than logic.

I actually pity both of you. Go ahead, live in fear. Raise whatever children you have someday in fear. Live in constant fear, and watch out for anyone named Mohamed or Omar or Moyed. But, just remember that when you live in fear Osama bin Laden wins.

Anonymous:

Ah yes, the ad hominem attack. Everything but an answer to his questions.

Joe:

You're obviously extremely bright. Bright enough to know the force of logic is probably wasted here. It is very amusing nobody has attempted to answer your excellent questions (I sent them to my brother!). Maybe you should post them again.
Keep up the good work - but the stridency is probably counterproductive.

You seem to be carrying water for the Bush people spouting off about fascists, but it appears you don't really understand the concept.

I know history, Joe. You do not. You're just another self-deluded racist running off at the mouth. I'm guessing you're somewhere between the ages of 20 and 25, maybe you're in college or just graduated, and you feel supremely educated. Joe, get a few years on you, get some more experience, and gain some more wisdom. (And read up on the 1956 Kafr Kasem Massacre.) You seem to have facts but no context, and your arguments are simplistic and formulaic. It's easy to scream "Let's go get them" when you have nothing to lose and you're not willing to contribute.

We've heard this king of crap for seven years (since you were maybe in middle school), and we're tired of it. We're tired of stupid wars and pointless deaths. We're tired of you, Joe.

Dear brave anonymous,

I am no fan of the Bush administration. That may surprise you, but it is true. You will not find much defence of his policies from me. Now that said, supporting our ally Israel has been American policy since long before Bush.

As to examples of Fascism, dear anonymous, I was making a rather serious historical point. You see in the fourties, ther were these folks called America First! Did you ever hear of them? They were the extreme right wing set that said let Hitler and Japan eat everyone else, it is not our problem. They also had a strange confluence with the extreme left - who thought that all wars - even one against fascists should not be fought.

History repeats itself partially because people like you would rather spout one liners then learn history.

Joe, if you'd like to see examples of fascism closer to home look no further than the Bush Administration.

And one other thing Ender,

I must compliment you. You are the first centinarian I have ever heard from who likes Orson Scott Card and uses phrases like "boner for armegeddon." I am very surprised at how hip you are.

So respectfully, on the very off chance that I am actually adressing a person who is over 100 years old, what did you do during the war?

And another thing,

Respectfully,

Ender, what did you do during the War? If you served in the Second World War, you know the dangers of Fascism. You have heard this music before. Please tell me why you think the message of Bin-Ladin, Hezzballah, Hamas or any of the radical Islamists is any different then the peculiar mix of frenzy, personalism and nationalism that made life so terrible in the Forties?

Question to Ender,

Are you really over 100 years old?

Joe, if ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest man alive.

Ender,

Actually, Gary and I posted a whole bunch of points, actual points as to why you are so very misled. Please scroll up and read the post that I have with eight questions. I have been waiting for anyone here to attempt to answer them.

Since you believe that supporting our ALLY, democratic and defensive Israel over our avowed ENEMIES undemocratic and offensive Islamofascists(do you really think that groups like the Hezzies for instance are friends of America? Do you think murdering hundereds of our Marines makes them friends? What about all the Death to America chanting?) makes me un-American, I am very confused what your definition of patriotism is.

As to Amanipour's bit of propaganda, it is what it is, but it is not fact.

So again, please do me the kindness of truthfull attempting to answer any of the questions I posed in my first long post.

And I will pose one more, since you seem to be very concerned about AIPAC, what do you make of the fact that the Saudis have a VASTLY larger lobby?

Joe, If you're Palestinian, Israel is the terrorist state. Before you blame everything on the Palestinians, you should read about the 1956 massacre at Kafr Kasem and other atrocities of the State of Israel.

So Joe(and Gary), since you've told me how misled I am, but don't give specifics, I'd suggest you watch Christine Amanpour's God's Warriors. She interviews publicly active Israelis who are part of organizations that consider it their holy duty to make sure that Israel is restored to it's biblical borders. She shows older film clips of interviews with Israeli political leaders who support these groups and are committed to ignoring the UN described borders. This isn't the stuff of fantasy, and the rest of the world knows it, and it is a matter of public discourse in Israel.

BUT NOT IN THE US. Israeli Americans through groups like AIPAC and ownership of large swatches of media outlets stifle that debate here. So I can understand your ignorance on the subject.

IF HOWEVER, YOU ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS THAT PUT THE INTEREST OF ISRAEL ABOVE THAT OF THIS NATION, YOU CAN KISS MY LARGE WHITE ARSE AND MOVE YOUR TRAITOROUS ONES TO ISRAEL AND STOP PRETENDING TO BE AMERICANS.

BTW there Joe ol' bud, I'm a Master Degreed centinarian Executive Consultant that has watched as our media misreports the truth in the middle east, and understood the negative impact of that on My Nation, for more than 30 yrs.

There have been quite a few Truthdig reports lately indicating many in America but closet Israelis such as yourselves, or ignorant right wingnuts with a boner for Armeggedon, are ready to cut Israel off. If you are an Israeli, you better get off the Zionist bandwagon, and encourage your politicians to give back pre '67 palestine to the palestinians, or be prepared to survive without US dollars. The money trough is just about to run dry.

Personally, I'd like to see contributions to the Terrorist STate of Israel treated like contributions to Islamic terrorist groups. CONFISCATED.

Dear anonymous

I am not writing the posts that say I feel pretty. That is someone else's juvenile attempt at humor/insult.

I actually would LOVE to have an adult discussion but the nature of these boards makes that very difficult.

Back up thread, I posted quite a few factual statements. In the mean time, I have been treated to some truly horrific racial slurs.

So if any of the trolls here would care to adress the real issues I would enjoy getting into them.

Seriously though, how can you side with anyone who supports the Hezzies? The Hezzies hate and murder Americans. With this group it is not just a Jewish issue at all. So seriously, why are you not offended by those who support those who would murder you?

Dear anonymous

I am not writing the posts that say I feel pretty. That is someone else's juvenile attempt at humor/insult.

I actually would LOVE to have an adult discussion but the nature of these boards makes that very difficult.

Back up thread, I posted quite a few factual statements. In the mean time, I have been treated to some truly horrific racial slurs.

So if any of the trolls here would care to adress the real issues would enjoy getting into them.

Seriously though, how can you side with anyone who supports the Hezzies? The Hezzies hate and murder Americans. With this group it is not just a Jewish issue at all. So seriously, why are you not offended by those who support those who would murder you?

Joe, you seem to have a real inferiority complex judging by the way you try so hard to look educated. But what's with you having to keep saying that you look pretty? O.k., we get it - you're pretty. Big deal. It seems that most of the people commenting here are educated, so all I can conclude is that you feel that if someone disagrees with you, he or she is somehow stupid. You come across as insecure.

I think you are the only "pseudo intellectual fraud" here. Why not try to say something worth reading rather than insult everyone who doesn't agree with you? Because your current line of debate makes you look like jack-ss.

I would now like to restate that I FEEL PRETTY!

Oh so pretty.

It is always charming when these things devolve.

BTW I did not write the bits about me feeling pretty, but, since someone else was kind enough to write that in my name, I will mention for the record, that I am a good looking fellow. :)

That said,

Thopaine and Mohammed,

Please do not tell me how provoked you were or how you like to debate. Nonsense.

The diversion into higher math entertained me, but it was never the point. Please yet again, answer any one of my basic points.

Thopaine, the real Thomas Paine would consider defensive war against savages to be common sense. You really paint your true colors by siding with an Iranian back terrorist organization that is a state with in a state and also openly vows to commit genocide. It makes you yet another terrorist propagandist. The Hezzies are the same folks who murdered our marines in Lebanon back in the Eighties. To support them means you support avowed enemies of America.

I can say that your support of them makes you doubly an enemy, and we are no longer talking about rational "debate."

And yes, putz does mean the "unit" but, your translation is missing something. It is actually much more perjorative then you give it credit for. :) I suppose Jewish people call you that a lot. But you are a little pisher. You don't rate highly enough to get called a putz.

MoMo - My favorite pseudo intellectual fraud who likes to play apologist for terrorits.

For the entire evening, you refused to answer even one of my points. You then decided to make some outlandish mathematical claims based on the work of Auman. To bad for you, I mean what are the odds, but too bad for you, I actually know advanced mathematics...

I LOVED your post about minimax/maximin vectors and Hamiltonians and Nash equilibrium! Really brave to parrot a Wiki like that... I bet you were never challenged before.

So I asked you the type of question I might ask a student, the kind that probes understanding, the kind that you could not answer by looking at a Wiki. And, not surprisingly, you turned out to be a fake. A fraud.

But again, it does not matter wether or not you know game theory. Though, I confess, I took a certain perverse pleasure in outing your fraud. What I care about is that you too are an apologist for evil.

Sometimes when I look in the mirror, I say to myself, "Hey there! You're pretty!"

I like to feel pretty.

Correction:

Which would you rather be, a non-Jew living in an Israel or a Jew living in an Arab/Muslim country?

Israel versus most of the world.

Which would you rather be, a non-Jew living in an Arab/Muslim country or a Jew living in an Arab/Muslim country?

Who would have more freedoms, wealth, rights, education, opportunities?

All the Jews were forced out of the Gaza Strip, is it now prospering? How about the Jews of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Libiya, etc?

Did any Jew receive any compensation for being kicked out of any country?

Thanks Joe and Gayrd, Keep the faith!

artistkvip -- Why did you repeatedly substitute "2" for "to" in your last comment?

Thank you, Rabbi Saperstein, for a powerful and accurate statement.

I like to feel pretty. Call me sissy, prissy or whatever, but I just like feeling pretty.

THOPAINE,

Thank you very much, Sir!

I ALWAYS try to argue nicely and rationally, in accordance with my training.

But, if somebody continually resorts to insults, I have the weakness (but, from my reading of Game Theory, that might not so much be a weakness as a rational strategy) to retort in kind.

At 6:00 p.m. on Jan 15, I was saying "Peace be on you". At 7:53 p.m., I refrained from actually naming President Katsav because everyone is inocent until PROVEN guilty.

By 9:04 p.m., I had been PROVOKED into actually naming him.

This vicious circle of escalating rhetoric also ends up in escalating physical violence. We should ALL work towards peace.

Thanks again, Thopaine, Sir!

Joe;

You are way out of line, foaming at the mouth.How is it that the post is not flagging your comments.They are offensive, crude and so over the top as to be ignored. I have heard of mathematicians who have gone mad over their work.Is that you?
You even called someone a putz,which is a nasty yiddish slang word for the penis.It should have been removed, but the post seems only to remove intemperant postings when they oppose Israel's position on some issue.
I formerly supported Israel, but after the viscious and brutal invasion and bombing of lebanon, no longer. American jews are walking a fine line which has worked so far, but more and more americans are growing tired of carrying Israel. If you want to bomb iran like you bombed lebanon, go ahead, but leave america out of it. We, unlike Israel, are seeking a peaceful world.Has terrorism increased or decreased in the face of brutal use of military force by Israel over the past 50 years? There is your answer.
We true americans are not going to be drawn AGAIN into israel's issues with its neighbors.Leave us alone, or move to Israel and join the military there. That should allow your bile to dissipate.

JOE, JOE, or JOJO,

You write " I completely agree that Olmert blew it in Lebanon BTW. He lost his nerve. Had someone competent been in charge there would have been a full invasion and Israel would have destroyed the miserable Hezzie rats in their little holes. You got very lucky that the Israelis had a weak leader." Earlier you had said that Olmert failed to commit more troops.

Well, JOJO, Dick is urging Israel to strike Iran. Should it or should it not? ANSWER!

Yes, I agree with you.

We revere Gandhiji for his saintly heart but his non violence didn't help Hindus.

Gandhiji had blind spots. His another blind spot was his support of Muslims at any cost to Hindus. Most Muslims voted for a separate country in a referendom and didn't believe in nonviolence at all that he preached. Gandhiji's nonviolence cost India two million lives and 14 million refugees. India could have one indendence if she resorted to violence with less lives lost. Today we in India have a Muslim problem and Pakistan and Bangladesh have no Hindu problem. We kept Muslims in India while they have expelld Hindus.

CORKIN:
I can speak only in defense of my own faith. It is for others to defend theirs.

As to who are true Americans, I believe they are the aboriginal peoples of the North American continent before the advent of European settlers. It seems an odd phenomenon that as immigrants of many nations and cultures have landed on these shores, they have all tried to "prove" themselves worthy of being called real Americans as they attempt to assimilate. What is the imagined perfect model of the ideal American that they are trying to emulate? Whom do they wish to please in that regard?

I read recently about a former CIA spy who disclosed secrets about the company and was subsequently stripped of his citizenship. He now lives abroad. Who has the right to strip anyone of his or her birthright? If we are only American citizens according to the permissive will of some authority, who is that authority and where is that power expressly written as law?

I read these postings in an attempt to learn from others with wildly divergent views and beliefs. I have read most major religious works of the world, including the Koran, but I really only know my own faith.

What I wonder most is how we might all reach a consensus for peace despite the enormous differences and historical grievances. It is a Utopian notion, I agree, but my presumption is that this web site offers the opportunity to average citizens to explore that possibility. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of axe grinding going on.

One lives in hope of a better world, however unlikely it is to achieve. The Bible says it will come only with the direct intervention of the Angel of God. "In the day that the Lord is revealed, the heavens shall depart with a great noise and the elements, being of fire, shall melt with a fervent heat."

Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars until the end of time. No man was ever more peaceable than he, yet the world gave him three nails and a piece of wood for his efforts.

Nonetheless, it is in pursuit of peace that we temper our soul and perhaps save another's. "No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend."

Who was it who said that when we save one life we save the world?

it saddens me 2 hear you condem someone who has merely stated his true opinion just as....you yourself are doing 2 him... and you at the same time seem 2 condone violence to solve a social or a problem that simply needs to be confronted with actual truths of the present instead of using the past 2 justify the very thing that you are condeming.... becoming a better or more effeciant terrorist... or to try 2 terrorized the terrorist wood seem to be self defeating and soul condeming,,, in Gods world there can be no excuse 4 violence except to protect oneself from actual aggression that is actually happening... the truth is true all the time or its not the truth... i don't think israel or any other country would want 2 give everyone else in the world the right to strike them first if they thought israel was getting ready to strike them... to engage in these kinds of one sided logic with out giving others the same right is a sign of a mentally ill person or people making policy that seem 2 be logically flawed. the same should pertain 2 all nations... no one has the right to start the fight of violence if one claims 2 be obediant to God before themselves... if they are are above God in thier knowledge then i would simple ask the question..... why don't you get get your way and change things without the need to hurt others....please show us this great power you possess

Caliph wrote:

"There must be limit on lying. The above is false. His name is Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy and not Muhammad Surahwahrdy."

There is evidence that this butcher of Bengali Hindus, Surahwahrdy added a middle name 'Muhammad' in addition to whatever garbage his other names were.

It's not 'lying'. I was not familiar with his complete names. You surely have a perverted sense of morality.

This butcher was responsible for deaths of 3000 Hindus in Kolkata. Read the book by Dominic Lapierre and Larry Collins, FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT to know what this Surahwahrdy did on what he labelled as 'DIRECT ACTION DAY'. (And your quote from this British officer is pure sloppy; it omits the fact this Muslim demon - called a Direct Action Day to slaughter Hindus.)

You seem to be that creep who always wants to project Muslim murderers as heroes. Just like the Aryan society members who project Hitler as a hero

No wonder jerks like M. K. Gandhi and his descendant Arun Gandhi are so favored by Muslims.

Mohamed

Why are you still trying? What you have proven is that you can read another Wiki and lie.

No one else here is likely to know this, after all I quoted from an actual math degree and you quoted from a wiki.

Symplectic theory, if you know anything about Hamiltonians is an essential concept. To claim you know Hamiltonians without knowing this is like claiming that you know Algebra without being able to multiply. Now, it is OK, most here will not know you for the liar and fake you are, but I actually do.

You see Aumann's math is even more advanced than this. And you may be surprised, but his math does not say what you claim it does. I actually hav seen some of his work. But then again, you need to understand it to even make the claim - and we both know that you are nothing but a little liar who is too proud to give up.

I completely agree that Olmert blew it in Lebanon BTW. He lost his nerve. Had someone competent been in charge there would have been a full invasion and Israel would have destroyed the miserable Hezzie rats in their little holes. You got very lucky that the Israelis had a weak leader. As to Katsav, he should be in prison.

That said, since I have addressed your babble, would you mind aderessing any of my points?

You are still a pathetic liar and a little sniveling apologist for terrorists.

Joe,

You going nuts?

I know the Hamiltonian function as used both in Game Theory in the context of what is termed the 'optimal penal code' (as analysed in a very recent issue of The Journal of Econometrics) and in the context of the Calculus of Variations.

You're right that I don't know about 'the simplectic condition', but if you are talking about the 'perpendicularity condition' whereby the product of two partial derivatives would have to be equal to minus one, yes, I know. I completed my combined honours in Economics and Mathematics as long ago as 1973 and my Ph. D Comprehensives (ABD) in 1975. So which exact partial derivatives, I cannot spell out ex nihilo, but given a specific mathematical problem, even now I can work it all out.

But what has this got to do with anything? I am telling you the result of simulations made by Robert Aumann, research that I am sure instructs the IDF strategists. Query Aumann if you want. Check his website. You don't want to, just look at the beating Ehud Olmert took, and pretend you don't know anything about your alleged serial rapist former President Katsav.

There is nothing more revolting that seeing surviving victims become the exact replica of their people's executioners.

Only their Jewish moral blind spot can prevent such people from seeing what they have become.

Hey Mo!

You see the problem with your math skills is that if you were a real math person and you actually understood the stuff that you parroted from whatever wiki, you would have answered any of the simple questions first instantly - because they are that basic.

You are a liar and a fake.

Of course, lying about the math you claim to know is not the issue - though it really does make you look stupid. The issue is your defense of evil terrorists.

You are nothing Mo. You are just some little terrorist propagandist who has no better life then to write garbage on the pathetic boards of the Post... How is your cyber Jihad going you little putz?

Ahhh yet another crazy comes out of the woodwork! Hi Caliph!

Let me guess, you think the whole world would be better if everyone had a caliph and just obeyed Sharia the way you see it defined?

Giggle!

Please Mo, I am dying to hear your thoughts on higher math... Ahhh... maybe you have someone you can call... Is your Math major buddy not there? Please you made some very, very strong claims about your knowledge... Please enlighten us....

"This should be a no-brainer ! Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was a hypocrite. When Muhammad Surahwahrdy butchered 3000 Hindus in Kolkata around 1946, the elder Gandhi asked Hindus to forgive and forget. Gandhi was a great Muslim appeaser, and hence by default he has to be anti-Jewish."

There must be limit on lying. The above is false. His name is Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy and not Muhammad Surahwahrdy. He was Chief Minister of India consisting present West Bengal, Bangladesh and Assam. He also became Prime Minister of Pakistan. He did not leave India after partition and Worked with Gandhi to maintain peace in Calcutta, now Kolkata.

Followins is the fact:

Lord Wavell wrote to Pethick Lawrence:

Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus [23]. Fredrick John Burrows, in a report to British Viceroy Pethic Wavell, summarized the overall riots and their political consequences thus:

Now come to the illegal Immigrants in Palestine falesly known as Israel.

1. That illegal Immigrants who were brought in Palestine through illegal and immoral Balfour Declaration is root of problem in entire region and in This World.

2. Mr. Arun Gandhi probably does not know that Kamal Ataturk who abolished Caliphate was a Jew too and this is part of long conspiracy against Caliphate and World Muslims for which World Muslims are victims today.

Source: Rabbi Joachim Prinz, Ex President American Jewish Congress in his famous book The Secret Jews

3. That those illegal Immigratnts were brought to Palestine immorally after the destruction and abolition of Caliphate after 1916

4. That Moscow, London, Paris and Illegal Immigrants of Tel Aviv, rest of Palestine and else where who posses thousands of Nuclear Bombs and WMD are real threat to World Peace and not Arabs or Muslims or Iranians.

5. Aftar killing millions in Iraq since 1991, Those illegal Immigrants are now after Iran and entire region and the following is that truth

From:

http://presscue.com/node/38692

We'll nuke Iran - Bush promises Israel

US President George W. Bush promised Israel's opposition leader Binyamin Netanyahu that the United States will join the Jewish state in a nuclear strike against Iran, Israel Radio reported today.
Former Prime Minister Netanyahu, opposition Likud party's hardline chairman who opposes the US-backed Annapolis peace process, reiterated to President Bush his stance, that a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Iran's nuclear installations was the only way to stop the Islamic nation's nuclear weapons ambitions.
"I told him my position and Bush agreed," Netanyahu told Israel Radio.
During their 45-minute meeting at King David hotel in Jerusalem Netanyahu also told Bush that "Jerusalem belongs to the Jewish people and will remain under Israeli sovereignty for eternity."

Let us have open discussion before International Court of Justice compromising Judges of Asian, Africa, and Euopeans with population ratio on the following rulings:

1. If Britain had right to destroy 1300 years old Caliphate which is only Islamic State and to create illgal present client States?

2. If Britain had moral right for illegal and immoral Balfour declaration and allow thos illegal Immigrants in Palestine?

3. If Europeans, Spaniards and Anglo Saxons had to right to steal 4 cotinients of North America, South America. Australia and Occenia and lately Palestine from rest 6 billions Asians and Africans?

Continents
BY SIZE

#1 Asia - (44,579,000 sq km)
#2 Africa - (30,065,000 sq km)
#3 North America - (24,256,000 sq km)
#4 South America - (17,819,000 sq km)
#5 Antarctica - (13,209,000 sq km)
#6 Europe - (9,938,000 sq km)
#7 Australia/Oceania - (7,687,000 sq km)

BY POPULATION 2005 est.

#1 Asia - (3,879,000,000)
#2 Africa - (877,500,000)
#3 Europe - (727,000,000)
#4 North America - (501,500,000)
#5 South America - (379,500,000)
#6 Australia/Oceania - (32,000,000)
#7 Antarctica - (0)

Thus total area of Asia and Africa is:

#1 Asia - (44,579,000 sq km)
#2 Africa - (30,065,000 sq km)
Total 74,644,000 sq km

Thus total population of Asia and Africa is:

#1 Asia - (3,879,000,000)
#2 Africa - (877,500,000)
Total 4,756,500,000

Thus almost 5 billion people live in Asia and Africa

And how much land Europeans are occupying through their power of WMD?

#3 North America - (24,256,000 sq km)
#4 South America - (17,819,000 sq km)
#5 Antarctica - (13,209,000 sq km)
#6 Europe - (9,938,000 sq km)
#7 Australia/Oceania - (7,687,000 sq km)
Total 72,909,000 sq km

How much population European dominated land?

#3 Europe - (727,000,000)
#4 North America - (501,500,000)
#5 South America - (379,500,000)
#6 Australia/Oceania - (32,000,000)
#7 Antarctica - (0)
Total 1,640,000,000

Thus 4,756,500,000 people are living in Asia and Africa consisting 74,644,000 sq km are and on the other hand

1,640,000,000 Europeans are living in European dominated area of 72,909,000 sq km.
Europeans are occupying almost same land in size though population ratio is 3 to 1.

How much land Europeans in Europe and rest 4 stolen Continents whose total number are less than total World Muslim population need? Should they not be satisfied with 4 stolen continents and leave rest of this world including Palestine and Middle East and its' land, sea and AIR?

So where is justice of equal opportunity for food, shelter and Wealth as those Europeans are also holding most of the wealth of this world through their power WMD.

Where are true education, Justice and truth and only truth?

Where is WMD? WMD is not in Persia, 7000 years old Civilization?

Stop singing WMD in Persia a country of Hafiz, Sadi and so on.

So where is equal justice?
More is in my book in:

http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581128770

Please let us have open discussion in Iternational Court.

Lastly Illegal Immigrants will remain as illegal in any land as land belongs to son of the soil and not any illegal Immigrants even if it 100 years old or 500 years old.

Thanks,

And PS Mohamed,

If you can not answer, you do not know Hamiltonians. If you can not answer, I get to call you a complete faker and a liar. I am already pretty certain you are. How about you just tell me a classic problem that would require compact support to solve?

I am very entertained by you little man.

ok Mohamed

I seem to have hit a soft spot here with you. I will give you credit for being able to read a wiki. I am amused by your boundless chutzpah and your continued unwillingness to address any of my basic points (which continues to show the weakness of your lack of position).

But how about a little test? This is what actual math people consider calling someone out.

You know Hamiltonians yes? (Grin!)

So, If you have a Hamiltonian map which depends explicitly on time, (and this really is a basic question) what is the symplectic condition?

For that matter, what does the symplectic condition have to do with this problem?

As to Olmert, yes. He never committed the troops and because he blinked, the Hezzies were not wiped out. Pity.

JOE,

You're right, I don't know Ratner's Theorems. What I know are the conditions, including in infinitely-repeated games with multiple entry and exits and endogenous information sets, under which the minimax vector equals the maximin vector. I know the Nash equilibrium and the 'generalised Nash solution'. I also know a fair amount about the Hamiltonian conditions under which an 'optimal penal code' to secure the adoption of strategies by all players so as to secure the optimal outcome.

But, if you think that, brains aside, it is brawn that matters and you consider yourself so strong, maybe you can lick the wounds of Ehud Olmert. As for the alleged serial rapist, he is irredeemable.

Ahhhhh Red...

And yes Red, the Jewish machine - us darn Jews with our sinister use of things like fact and logic.... Sorry, that it makes it an unfair fight with the likes of you...

Your stupidity and foolish sense of oppression are probably measures of your own failures. How about you look in a mirror before blaming the Jews for your shortcomings. It is not our fault you are paranoid, sniveling and worthless.

Don't worry, society can always use people like you to wash windows.

GARYD,

Israel already has many nuclear warheads. Thay wanna use them? Why don't they? Ask them. Ask what happened to the guys who took orders from Harry Truman to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or better, read their own accounts of the nigtmares they lived ever after.

I have been through all these arguments before. If anybody is smart enough to understand, he understands. If he wants war without end like the moron who is visiting the Middle East these days, be my guest! Ask Ehud Olmert what he is going through after the thrashing he got from Hizb'Allah in Lebanon. And that's not to talk of that alleged serial rapist, you-know-who.

Mohammed,

I have no desire to debate game theory with you. It just so happens that one of my degrees is in mathematics.

Do you really know anything about something like this? How about you even define the concepts of mapping or metric spaces or compact support (much simpler concepts needed to even approach the models)? If you do not know about mathematics on that level (How about just at the level of complex analysis?), do you really think you are qualified to make any statements - or that anyone here would understand them? Tell you what, if you can tell me something useful about say Ratner's Theorems, I'll consider addressing it with you. (Good luck finding a wiki you can understand, you bogus little creep!)

Let me put it this way my (Joe really grins at the thought) my EMPIRICAL friend. If you knew the definition of empirical, you would not use it the way you did in this context. All you are doing is groping for arguments to make your pseudo-intellectualism seem more plausible.

How about we stick to actual facts.

The situation in Gaza and the West Bank would be vastly better if the Palis actually wanted peace. Since they do not, and they just can't seem to seek peace for a moment, they have brought this situation on themselves.

When does the notion of personal responsibility EVER come into play? As to Israel's unbounded aggression - what nonsense! They offer peace deals again and again and the Palis say NO! in the form of bombs, murders and kidnappings again and again.

Your comparisons to South Africa are utterly bogus propaganda.

As to the idea that I have unbounded hatred of Muslims that is wrong. I have unbounded hatred of barbaric monsters like Hamas and Hezzbullahh. For that matter, I have unbounded hatred of the KKK and Nazis as well. I also hate those who are propagandists for them - like you.

How about you address any of the eight points I brought earlier? Again, you do not because you can not. It only shows the utter weakness of your position.

And Roy, Dear Roy, do you have nothing better than to spew insults? You too are invited to debate like a big boy.

Roy, you are what Lenin called a "useful idiot." Go look up the reference. And Mo - you are nothing more than a propagandist who is not used to being seriously challenged in this little cess pool of a board.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! No go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

Mohammed,

I have no desire to debate game theory with you. It just so happens that one of my degrees is in mathematics.

Do you really know anything about something like this? How about you even define the concepts of mapping or metric spaces or compact support (much simpler concepts needed to even approach the models)? If you do not know about mathematics on that level (How about just at the level of complex analysis?), do you really think you are qualified to make any statements - or that anyone here would understand them? Tell you what, if you can tell me something useful about say Ratner's Theorems, I'll consider addressing it with you. (Good luck finding a wiki you can understand, you bogus little creep!)

Let me put it this way my (Joe really grins at the thought) my EMPIRICAL friend. If you knew the definition of empirical, you would not use it the way you did in this context. All you are doing is groping for arguments to make your pseudo-intellectualism seem more plausible.

How about we stick to actual facts.

The situation in Gaza and the West Bank would be vastly better if the Palis actually wanted peace. Since they do not, and they just can't seem to seek peace for a moment, they have brought this situation on themselves.

When does the notion of personal responsibility EVER come into play? As to Israel's unbounded aggression - what nonsense! They offer peace deals again and again and the Palis say NO! in the form of bombs, murders and kidnappings again and again.

Your comparisons to South Africa are utterly bogus propaganda.

As to the idea that I have unbounded hatred of Muslims that is wrong. I have unbounded hatred of barbaric monsters like Hamas and Hezzbullahh. For that matter, I have unbounded hatred of the KKK and Nazis as well. I also hate those who are propagandists for them - like you.

How about you address any of the eight points I brought earlier? Again, you do not because you can not. It only shows the utter weakness of your position.

And Roy, Dear Roy, do you have nothing better than to spew insults? You too are invited to debate like a big boy.

Roy, you are what Lenin called a "useful idiot." Go look up the reference. And Mo - you are nothing more than a propagandist who is not used to being seriously challenged in this little cess pool of a board.

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! No go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

Another attack by the jewish machine. How we outside the beltway tire of this machine.
Just so u know queen Latifah is hotter with the meat

More of It""

are you sure your real name is not "Full of It?"

Full of nothingness, in the case of your last comment. I have no idea what you are implying, other than that it sounds demeaning and disrespectful of a considerable human being.

GANDHI'S BLIND SPOT !!!

You just know that such a headline would come from the ilk of Saperstein. Speaking of blind spots, always and ever.

Shall we laugh or grind our teeth?

GANDHI'S BLIND SPOT !!!

You just know that such a headline would come from the ilk of Saperstein. Speaking of blind spots, always and ever.

Shall we laugh or grind our teeth?

Oh The Palestinian leadership is certainly nothing to write home about in terms of either tactical or strategic acumen and the evidence that they actually care about the well being of their people is slim at best but were they not aided and abetted in their delusions by virtually everyone else in the Middle East and half the idiots in Europe as well this situation would long ago have been resolved amicably.

Now my single greatest fear is that eventually the Palestinians will acquire some sort of a WMD an use it against Israel and Israel no at last pushed beyond human endurance and understanding will retaliate as they could do at any time they wished and 80% of Palestinian people wil lie dead amidst the rubble of their homes.

GARYD, JOE,

I shall repeat to you what I have said elsewhere so many times.

Empirically, EMPIRICALLY, there is no way Israel's unbounded aggression will prevail.

The South African situation, as well as the pre-1857 Indian situation (read William Dalrymple's "The Last Mughal"), are good precedents to go by. In both cases, the oppressor thought that it had overwhelming force on its side; in both cases, it tried to portray the resistance fighter as a terrorist. That is why Arun Nehru (India) and Ronnie Kasrils (South Africa), are so passionately arguing the case of the Palestinians against the Israeli oppression (not Jewish, mind you! -- Oh, many, many Jews are more intelligent than you are and, perforce, more humane).

But, more importantly, the Jewish Nobel Prize winner Robert Aumann studied the situation from an extremely rigorous Game Theoretic viewpoint, making countless simulations. Initially, he thought (likely using the same erroneous premises that you use, and, additionally, casting his model in the framework of an 'infinitely-repeated game') that the model showed Isralei policy winning. Then, after discussing with other experts. he adjusted his model. From a very hardline hawk position, he has now espoused a dovish or at least swan-like strategy.

Read his research reports of his website at Hebrew University, and also look for the entry under his name in wikipedia.

Hope you are smart enough to atleast make some sense of his research.

Peace be on you my friend, even if, misguided, you reject it.

If the Palestinians do not fight back, they will end up just like the Jews in Nazi Germany.

You blame the victim who fights back against the bully? Brilliant logic.

Garyd:

You put into words what I long felt to be entirely true. Incredible stupidity is the prime reason for Palestinian suffering.

The amin reason why Israel is expanding the settlements is because of Palestinian attacks from land it controls (for example the incessent rocket attacks on Israeli civilians). So the expansion of settlements is aimed at creating a buffer zone to protect innocent civilians from these attacks. But the stupid Palestinian leadership does not seem to understand this basic fact. If you don't want to get hurt, then stop using the axe on your own leg. It does not take a genius to figure out that what Palestinians want (destroying Israel) can never be fulfilled. The collective will of much of the non-Muslim world--certainly the industrial might of the world--is with Israel. If I were a Palestinian leader, I would try a completely different tactic than violence against Israel. But what can you expect from idiots? If the leadership wopuld cooperate with and recognize israel, the Palestinian people could have lived in peace and prosperity.

Mohammed the situation in the West bank and in Gaza is and has been an abomination for decades. It is that way not because of the Israelis but rather because the Palestinians themselves continue to wait for the opportunity pick the bones of a defunct Israel rather than building something of their own.

CHATTER, CHATTER,

Your compulsive hatred of Muslims is obviously insane because you seem to sift through all forums on the web for an opportunity to spew your sick hatred. Have you seen any Muslim who does what you do?

As for your youtube link, I have better things to do than to open hate-spreading propadanda links. The Guardian is a highly-respected internationally-read British newspaper with a long history of distinguished news reporting nd analysis.

Last time I sent a shrink to help you, but the madness has returned.

Do something about it. For your own good.

To Mohammed continued,

You are correct though, this will not be decided by what we write in the boards of the Post for the delectation of the scatterbrained.

On the ground, you guys can keep attacking. I hope honestly that someone in the Arab world actually would like to make peace, but we both know the truth here...

If you keep attacking, Israel will keep defending and the numbers are that you will run out of fighters before the Israelis run out of bullets.

Your call.

Hey, Joe!

I HAVE been to Gaza. And my family lived for long years in South Africa. The Palestinians condition is worse than the most oppressed blacks of apartheid-time South Africa.

That's why Ronnie Kasrils (You know? The South African Minister, who is Jewish?) extended a warm invitation to Ismail Haniyeh to visit South Africa.

I would not describe it as the 'Gandhis' Moral Blind Spot' . It's more a case of the man with hammer to whom everything looks like a nail. Non-violence does not work in every case and against every evil and the Gandhis cannot admit this so we have contortions. In fact, MK Gandhi advised the Brits to let the Germans take over England because after a while, they (the Germans) would be ashamed.

Non violent protest worked against the Brits because they could only do so much in a violent manner until it got picked up back home and raised in parliament.

It was also expedient during the Quit India movement because the Brits had the guns and Nehru, Sardar Patel and others had the foresight to figure that a violent struggle would destroy the very institutions they would need to govern an Independent India and it was going to be tough enough trying to meld some 500 principalities into a united India. If you start out with guns settling the argument, it's pretty hard to have parliamentary debates.

Sure, the Palestinians should not have to pay for the Holocaust but they forgot the cardinal rule don't pick a fight you can't win. If Arafat and co had sense, they would have let demographics do its job.

How about the story from Reuters Mohammed?

I am sorry that this is too much truth for you.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL1473018620080115?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

"By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA (Reuters) - Israel killed at least 18 Palestinians, most of them Hamas militants, in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, in violence the Palestinian Authority said was a "slap in the face" to U.S. President George W. Bush's peace efforts.

A volunteer from Ecuador, working on an Israeli kibbutz, or farming community, bordering the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, was killed by a Palestinian sniper near the frontier fence. Hamas claimed responsibility for shooting the man.

..."

JOE,

If Guardain is biased, you might prefer to read the same news item on WAPO and on NYT.

But, as I have said, it is not the palaver that settles anything. It will be settled on the ground. You don't like Mohandas Gandhi's non-violence? So be it.

As I said, you might also like to advise David whether Israel should strike Iran as Cheney is leaning on them to.

Dear LW,

I am not certain what Hiroshima or Nagasaki have to do with this discussion. However, I am sure we can agree that war is awful, and it would be very wonderful to have peace.

It would be nice though also, if the Palestinians did not send their children to fight them. If you have actually been to the West Bank or Gaza then you know exactly what I am talking about.

I believe in nonviolence. I was not alive during the holocaust, and for me to say whether war was necessary to resisting the nazi's is completely theoretical. But I do remember hearing something about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. War takes the humanity out of people, to the extent that they can do anything in the name of "defense." And I've seen that in the West Bank. I've seen 19 year-old kids train their guns on unarmed women and children. It's routine. So are assassinations, mistaken shootings of children, deliberate shootings of children (one 13 year-old on my ward in an israeli hospital was shot in the back near the gaza border), etc. Please please please please do not punish the palestinians for the holocaust. And out of respect for the holocaust, please don't compare the palestinian fighters to nazi's. Can't we just hold to the general rule that war is bad, guns are bad, people do terrible things in war, and that war and conflicts should be prevented, and at the very least, not permitted to go on for decades without resolution?
I really think that if most Americans could see what's going on in the West Bank and Gaza, they would understand that these incursions are gruesome, ineffective, and will never bring peace or justice, only more blood as was seen tragically in gaza today. Gaza 3ala bali.

Mohamed Malleck (Swift Boat),

This is what Muslims do. PG-13 advisory in effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTVJSPzBJyA

Get a life Mo !

Ahhh dear Mohammed from swift currents canada...

The gaurdian is a little biased don't you think? The story is that day after day the Palis lob rockets at Israel. Today, they went a little further than usual and one of their snipers shot a farmer in the field. The farmer was in Israel and the sniper was in Gaza. So the Israelis killed even as the BBC puts it "militants."

In other words Mohammed, like so many of your bretheren who hate Israel, you are supporting people who picked a fight, murdered an innocent and then got their cowardly terrorist asses kicked. The kicker is that after they do loose the fight they start, the endless whining and hand wringing starts.

And to Ender,

Your post is full of so many lies and inaccuracies that I barely know where to start correcting them and I certainly do not have the energy to try.

Given that you chose an Orson Scott card character as your handle I'll assume that you are some college age type. Maybe a bit older maybe a bit younger, but at least hip enough to know good sci-fi.

But the sheer intensity of the delusion in your post can only come from some place like a food collective.

I'm picturing you as a middle class white kid with dreadlocks and a nose ring actually. Either that or you are an MSA type.

Anyway, do us a favor and please, I beg you, lay off the drugs son. It will ruin your life. Go out. Meet a girl. They smell nice you know. (And I mean a nice girl, not a hippie girl, they wash less). It will make you a much happier person.

Then, when you have it together, you can actually study things, learn some facts with a clear head and come play with the grown ups.

Why are the Hindus SURESH SETH and CHATTER so compulsively spewing their venom about Muslims and India in this forum, which deals mainly with Israeli policies of aggression, the latest instance of which is described in the link below?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2241078,00.html

These two guys are raving mad and I am surprised that they have still not argued that it was a Muslim, not a supposed 'high-caste' Hindu, who assassinated Mohandas Gandhi.

And to Ender,

Your post is full of so many lies and inaccuracies that I barely know where to start correcting them and I certainly do not have the energy to try.

Given that you chose an Orson Scott card character as your handle I'll assume that you are some college age type. Maybe a bit oder maybe a bit younger, but at least hip enough to know good sci-fi.

But the sheer intensity of the delusion in your post can only come from some place like a food collective.

I'm picturing you as a middle class white kid with dreadlocks and a nose ring actually. Either that or you are an MSA type.

Anyway, do us a favor and please, I beg you, lay off the drugs son. It will ruin your life. Go out. Meet a girl. They smell nice you know. (And I mean a nice girl, not a hippie girl, they wash less). It will make you a much happier person.

Then, when you have it together, you can actually study things, learn some facts with a clear head and come play with the grown ups.

Apparently at none. Roy is in desperate need of a reality check.

By the way How would I introduce a Muslim? Same way I would a Jewish friend or a Christian or Atheist Friend. By his name.

And Individual does not share the blame of his religious or tribal affiliation unless he chooses to do so. That sir is the beauty and wonder of America by and large we don't care what your daddy did for a living unless you choose to ape it and it is criminal.

Ohhh, Roy... I went to lunch, had a nice meal and I come back to see you playing the child. Rather than calling Me and Garyd bigots (interesting how you misspelled him as Gaytrd... Are you just a little homophobic there Roy?) why don't you attempt to face us on our facts. You can call us names if we are lying. But if the truth hurts you, that is not our fault.

So once again, I dare you little boy, challenge me on the facts. I have made numerous statements of fact in my posts here.

Here is a statement of fact: The right wing Islamic world is fanatical, aggressive, backwards, brutal and barbaric. Many, but not all, Muslims, particularly in the Middle East, support the fanatical Islamic right wing.

Is that more or less racist then saying that for centuries, Japanese samurai would cut off peoples' heads? Is that more or less racist then saying that for centuries, Native Americans took people's scalps? Is that more or less racist then saying that for centuries Europeans did things like burn people at the stake or draw and quarter them?

At what point does truth intercept your PC group think little boy?

Ugly people. Always the same.

Truth to ignorance? Ha! That's funny Gaytrd. You should be a comedian. Wait, is that what this has all been about?

Are you intentionally saying ridiculous things just to get a laugh or a rise out of us? Shame on you, Gayrd. You really had me going. I thought you were just another Bush-loving race-baiting moron.

Keep it coming! It's funny now. Ha ha!

The Christians display similar blind spot when Hindus fight back against Muslim violence in India. That is why President Bush had no problem inviting Jiang Zemin (butcher of Beijing) who engineered death of hundreds of Chinese if not thousands in 1989 but Bush’s State Department would not even grant a visa to Narendra Modi who is wrongly accused of death of a thousand Muslims in 2002 riots that also claimed lives of 500 Hindus and was started by Muslims with live burning of 59 Hindus.

Although nonviolence may be an incomplete philosophy with moral blind spots, it nonetheless has lessons to teach us all. Often, these lessons are more relevant to our personal conduct and character than they are applicable to the world of international relations and politics. Arun Gandhi's statement lacks nuance and has unfortunately elicited responses that do nothing to contribute to or advance the important conversations to be had regarding identity and nationalism.

We'd all do well to remember the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.:
Through violence, you may murder the liar but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.

None among us are all knowing but we all know that there are stark human rights violations committed by nearly all nations, including Israel. The past can never justify the injustices of the present.

No roy I'm not I'm speaking the truth to ignorance. And Islam is not limited to one Race nor is it a race. And please tell me how anything I said could be construed as race baiting. I'm sorry the actual history of the Middle east during the time the Nation of Israel did not exist is uncomfortable for you but if one wishes to be intellectually honest and act with intelligence and integrity one cannot choose to ignore it and actually make sensible useful commentary on the region.

Ender when you actually read something that isn't lock stock and barrel the bird cage lining from some neonazi or jihadist web site maybe we can hold an intellectual conversation on this. In the mean time happy delusions. By the way Likud waxes and wanes in direct proportion to how threaten your average Israeli feels at the moment so everytime the other side does something like a rocket attack or blowing up a grade school or pizzaria they are strenthening Likud's hand.

By the way why is the Israelis are the only ones here that are expected to use nonviolence You bigot think the Arabs are such savages that they could never adopt it or something?

Wolfawitz, Daniel Pipes, Richard Pearl and their ilk are part and parcel of the mammoth AIPAC. Daniel Pipes tried to stifle American academic freedom on US universities’ campuses with his “Campus Watch” to spy on Americans and prevent any debate or discussion of Israel’s racist policies and its grip on US foreign policy. Here is a brief on Israel’s history and policies:
1/// "Israel" never ever recognized the existence of the indigenous owners of Palestine: the Palestinian people.Golda Meir once said "What Palestinians?"
2// Israel never implemented a single UN resolution since its anomalous and questionable creation including UN 181 which created it-by devouring large chunks of the would be Palestine state in 1947, nor UN 194 of the same year which dictates the return of Palestinian refugees now multiplied into seven million who are still living in refugee camps outside Palestine for the past 60 years.
3/// Jewish terrorist gangs such as Haganah, Palmach, Shtern and Argun used extreme violence to ethnically cleanse millions of Palestinians and destroyed over five hundred Palestinians villages to prevent their return as per UN 194-which 60 years later Israel still refuses to implement. Israel was built on and continues to survive on respectively gang and state terrorism. Even Israeli revisionist historians have uncovered and documented Israeli ethnic cleansing to establish the racist state in 1947.
4// No land or resources are left whatsoever for a Palestinian state: Israel occupied 78%of Arab historic Palestine in 1947/8 and 22% in 1967 (West Bank, Gaza and most importantly Jerusalem which was built by the Canaanite Arabs long before there ever were Jews on earth) AND again Israel annexed-slowly but surely by implanting settlements in full day light- over 58% of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem-leaving less than 10% of original Arab historic Palestine for a Palestinian state??? Israel grabbed 1100 hectares of Palestinian land near Jerusalem-just before the American sponsored “peace conference” began last month.
Radicalism only begets radicalism and if the destruction of a whole nation of Palestinians and building a state on their ruins and tormenting them for over sixty years is not radicalism and terrorism-what is? Even the present Israeli defense minister Yahoud Barrack once said: “If I were a Palestinian I would be a terrorist.”
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah and others were created in response to the extremely lengthy 60-year old brutal Israeli military occupation of all of Arab historic Palestine; Hezbollah was created in response to the Israeli occupation of Lebanon from 1982 to 2000 when Israel was evicted by from Lebanon by Hezbollah.

Arab/Islamic states are equally guilty in using Palestine as an excuse to keep their own populations from paying attention to their own corruption and theft of national resources, but Israel could have made progress toward peace but for that 20% likud minority that are HARDCORE ZIONIST THAT WILL SETTLE FOR NOTHING LESS THAN THE MYTHOLOGICAL BORDERS TOLD OF IN THE TORAH. ISRAEL IS A THEOCRACY THAT IS BUILT ON APARTHEID AND TRIBAL RACISM. THAT VERY GROUP IS WHO KEEP BILLIONS IN AMERICAN AID PROPPING UP WHAT SO MANY CONSIDER ISRAEL'S GREAT SUCCESS STORY BECAUSE OUR OWN INDUSTRIAL MILITARY COMPLEX DO NOT WANT TO SEE A STABLE, EDUCATED MIDDLE EAST.

Gayrd, you are not trying to educate anyone. You are merely practicing the ancient art of race-baiting.

Mr. Saperstein eloquently describes how the State of Israel, as a secular power, arrived at its siege mentality that justifies the use and abuse of power against the inhabitants of the territories it seized and occupied.

That doesn't justify the abuse of power, or make the slow process of Israel becoming what it abhorred any less tragic. For non-Israelis who wish nothing but peace and prosperity for the citizens of Israel and its neighbors, the dance of death that Israelis and Arabs are locked in is heartbreaking. Both sides lack the political will to reach a stable peace, because both sides still want to "win" a chimeric victory.

Gandhi's philosophy that there are causes for which he was willing to die, but none for which he was willing to KILL, is a very difficult philosophy to follow ... I could not personally do it. Israel's state philosophy that there are causes for which they are willing to kill, torture, maim and disenfranchise .... well, although I can understand how I got there, I think it is ultimately counterproductive to the survival of their nation.

Don't blame me for your willing ignorance of historic fact Roy. I'll I'm trying to do is educate you but you seem rather disinclined to do so.

For instance in case you aren't aware of it Arabs are Caucasians just like me. There is no white race. Except for the extermely rare genetic defect known as Albinism none of us are white. We are all varying shade of tan from somewhat pinkish to somewhat blackish. There are only four, possibly five races. Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, and Australian Aborigine with Polynesians potentially a fifth with some claiming they are just a Mongoloid sub type and others claiming them to be a unique race.

Oh and Assassin comes from the name Hashashin state assassins in the pay of Various Muslim Rulers in , if memory serves the 12th century.

I believe sir that the average peasant farmer in truth wants pretty much the same thing whether he lives in Poteau, Oklahoma or just outside of Riyad or just south of New Delhi and that is to be left in peace to grow his crops feed his family and be able to sell the left overs to get that family a few nice things time to time. In fact I think about 80% of the world's population thinks like that the problem is the so-called smart people the leaders, the two legged horses rear ends for whom a little power is never enough.

Gayrd, let me put it another way. Suppose I introduce you at a party to everyone there the way you would introduce a Muslim?

"Hey everyone, I'd like you all to meet Gayrd. I know a lot of his kind are card-carrying mass-murdering nutbars, but he's not."

It reminds me of when I visited my grandmother in South Carolina each summer, and I would hear people refer to certain African Americans as "good n*ggers." Or, as I heard someone say about their maid: "She's real clean." It was repulsive then, and it's repulsive now.

Thanks Gayrd for taking me back to my boyhood memories of the Jim Crow South.

Gosh, Mr. Saperstein, you've been very successful in making your moral, defensive case, have you not?

Such appreciation of your wise perspective is the proof. A VERY successful approach. Unbelieveable since everyone else is wrong.

Might not someone, sometime conclude that not a lot positive is happening with the self righeous superiority? Centuries don't convince you?

I think instead of taking credit for Bosnia, Kosovo, and Darfur, more attention needs to be paid to the ethnic cleansing going on inside Israel itself.

Hey, don't jump on me fellas. I just call 'em like I see 'em, and you two sound like bigots, though more like the polite intellectual bigots we see on the Glenn Beck show and on Fox.

Have either of you two ever really gotten to know any Muslims? And, I don't mean the guy at the Subway, who you chat with while he's making your meatball sandwich. Have you ever gotten to know regular Muslims who are just trying to live and raise their children and work just like anyone else? I doubt you have.

All I see you doing is spewing out bad acts of SOME people of Muslim origins and you're hoping that we will ascribe those attributes and crimes to ALL Muslims. It's a sneaky trick and indicative of a clever, though still bigoted person. How nice of you to to say you don't "believe every Muslim to be a card carrying mass murdering nutbar."

"A card carrying mass murdering nutbar?" Since many card-carrying mass-murdering nutbars have been white guys, how would you feel if I asked you, "Hey Joe and Gayrd, I'm not saying that your dad is a card-carrying mass-murdering nutbar, but how is he?"

Will you say that ALL white Christians are bad because of Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia or the Spanish Inquisition? No, you can't do that because that would mean pointing a finger at yourselves, and your kind never looks inward. You only look outward and say, "Look there upon the dark-skinned man. He is different. He is your enemy."

Thanks AGAIN Rabbi Saperstein

perfectly and morally put, and with more forgiveness of the moral obtuseness and historical simplifications of Mr Gandhi than I have been able to muster.

Rabbi, you are my new role model.

Most of the troubles in middle east stem from Isreal being there. Carter is right when he wrote comparing Isreali actions to aparthied. A child throws a stone at isreali tank and it in turn bombs the whole village out. That is ethnic cleansing, that is being a rogue state, that is a genocide that palestianians have been through since Isreal was put on map by machiavellian Britsh. Iraq war is being fought by USA, for Isreal, by proxy. No one questions Isreal about its nuclear armament since mighty uncle sam funded it. If one american president has balls and wipes off all the aid given to Isreal, it won,t be able to stand on its own.
Anything that does not go along with western culture is considered degenrate, although the western culture is only few hundered years old. Remember Europe was in dark ages and barbarian, when India had well established educational institutes and well developed astronomy and medical sciences.

Roy Jones wrote:

"Mr. Gandhi ought to write the next piece on how badly peaceful Muslims are treated in India, the nation of his origin."

Fortunately, you have displayed the traits of a pathological liar (or a foolish bigot). Know how India treats its "peaceful" Muslims ?

1. India has had THREE Muslim Presidents since 1947. Latest being Dr. Abul Pakir Jainal-abedin Abdul Kalam.

2. India's Muslims have massive reservation for any higher education or government service jobs. This policy has angered a very wealthy Muslim, Azim Premji, WIPRO CEO, such that he has decided to move his entire apparatus out of India to Singapore. Azim Premji is listed as one of the 10 richest business leaders in Fortune 100 magazine.

3. Most of the Bollywood stars/artists/performers are Muslims. Shah Rukh "king" Khan is one of the examples. (And my favorite Bollywood is [late] Muhammad Rafi.)

4. Muslims get Hajj money to do their annual pilgrimage from the Federal Government's coffers. This, being recognized that the barbaric religion of Islam, asks Muslims to eliminate polytheism and polytheists. (Hindus are polytheists, and their tax returns to the Federal Givernment's coffers are doled out to Muslims for Hajj travel.)

5. Muslims in India, during my recent visit this past November 2007, live treacherous lifestyle. The have made safe havens which completely ignore the secular laws, and go by the Sharia laws. In a state/country Muslims have made parallel legal system feasible. Its like Mormons engaging in polygamy when US Constitution bans it. Of course in USA laws and enforced, and in India Muslims are appeased.

6. Home grown muslims in India, and they come from rich educated families, are members of the terrorist organization SIMI whose mission is to Islamize India and bring in Sharia laws. Most political parties curry favor with Muslims who are their preferred vote bank. (Recall that the latest suicide bomber in Glasgow, England was Dr. Kafeel Ahmed who had a PhD and hailed from a wealthy Muslim family in Banglore, India.)

7. Evidence of overturning Constitution dictates and hence accomodating the Sharia laws, exists. In 1985 the infamous Shah Bano case is still very much alive in memory of all. The Supreme Court verdict was overturned by the Federal Government to acomodate Muslim wishes.

8. Afzal Khan Guru, a radical Pakistani Muslim, who was the mastermind of the December 2001 attacks on the Parliament is sitting on the death-row but he is expecting that the Central Government shall withdraw case against him. The Supreme Court has looked into his case and has awarded the death penalty after considxering all evidences; the UPA-led Central Govt., in order to win elections is wooing the Muslim vote bank and thus wants Afzal acquitted.

9. Bomb Blasts in various parts of India, Hyderabad, Delhi, Varanasi, Mumbai are handiwork of Indian Muslims financed and radicalized by the Lashkar-e-Taiyyba (LeT). These criminals have been apprehended, but action against them is taken very slowly because of the unwritten understanding with the Muslim vote bank (ummah).

10. Muslims in India exhibited their Quran-inspired bloodlust and penchant for carnage over Danish cartoons. Note cartoons happened in Denmark and not in India. They demonstrated that Quran (005:033) is to be obeyed. However when it comes to insulting Hindus, Muslims have no shame. Maqbool Fida Hussain drew nude and obscene pictures of Hindu goddess Saraswati then cheekily pledged that it was his artistic freedom. He is fine and continuing the samed. Well, then how about the Danish cartoonist who can also claim artistic freedom ? Tasleema Nasreen was threatened with a bounty on her head because she has written against Prophet Muhammad.

The list goes on and on. Its Muslim appeasement in its most bizzare form.

The barbaric doctrine of Islam has brainwashed the Muslims in India to do almost anything they want and seek refuge under the "freedom of religion". Such barbarism and hypocrisy is possible because of Arun Gandhi's grandfather M. K. Gandhi, who should be viewed as "Duratma Gandhi" and not "Mahatma Gandhi".

Another name of Muslim appeasement is Gandhism. It thrives well in India, and in fact shapes the socio-political history of India post 1947. M. K. Gandhi had very deep-rooted hatred for Jewish people. But, he was not so foolish like his grandson to display it so crudely. This attitude was welcomed by Muslims, because of their tribal, intolerant and barbaric religion (Islam) that was founded on hate for Jews and Pagans.

So, get your stuff straight. David absolutely right in his assessment on Arun Gandhi's article. The Anti Defamation League may consider taking legal action against this obfuscator Arun Gandhi.

Indeed sir I am bigoted. I am bigoted against those who would deny historical truth for the sake of their personal comfort or because it interferes with their own preconceived notions concerning reality.

At times this makes me feel a bit quixotesque but rather than windmills I joust against lies and ignorance masquerading as wisdom and deep thought.

Sorry to remove you and joe from your comfort zone but the truth is not infrequently uncomfortable.

Some times the underdog is nothing more than a rabid little terrier that needs to be put out of his memory.

Please understand, I do not believe every Muslim to be a card carrying mass murdering nutbar. Nor do I thing every Jew is all sweetness and light or that every one baptized a Christian has of necessity the best interests of all at heart.Hell most Mafia Dons were baptized as babies.

But the evidence of history cannot be Denied Muhammad WAS a Warlord as ell as a Prophet. Of his first six successors 5 were murdered by other followers of Islam. The Wars within Islam have always had more to do with succession than Doctrine. The earliest one was about whether the Caliphate would be hereditary or not. And Mohammad's corpse had scarcely had time to decompose before that one started.

Roy

Precisely what did I say that was bigoted? If actual history, supported by actual fact, does not jibe with your PC sense of happy good-think then whose fault is it that you do not know history.

For instance, Assassin actually does have an origin in Arabic. I was more making fun of Frank's pathetic attempt at Latin then making a statement about the violence so common in Muslim culture.

However, do you wish to say that head-chop videos for instance are non violent? Perhaps the riots over cartoons (cartoons for crying out loud!) were the peaceful response of freedom loving intellectuals? But those are cheap shots. How about the very real warfare that goes on around the globe every day perpetrated by Islamofascists? Does darfur NOT count as a genocide? Should I embrace the people slaughtering their way through Sudan? Is it not PC enough to call them murderers? If you really need to get into a discussion about wether or not many, many Muslims are very, very violent what planet are you living on?

The Earth is round. 2 + 2 = 4. Puppies are cute... and for the love of reality, Islam has many, many, (if not a majority of) adherents who if not brutal, violent and barbaric themselves, certainly support violence and barbarism in other Muslims. And let's be really clear. Cutting off body parts in the public square, is called barbaric. Murdering people for being gay is called barbaric. Honor killings are called barbaric. Group participation killing as in stoning is called barbaric. Dancing in the streets with body parts is called barbaric. Suicide murders are called barbaric. Get real...

Jews didn't use much military power against Nazis except for the Warsaw uprising.

They turned 99% of their energy towards eliminating, killing, displacing and in general, removing the innocent people of Palestine from homes the Jews wanted.

And this started...BEFORE HITLER. Not after. So much for the moral underpinnings of Zionism.

Elaine Supkis of Culture of Life News

What a load of shameful and offensive innuendo, Mr. Saperstein. Just because someone doesn't share your views of "morality," it doesn't mean that they have a "moral blind spot." Your meaningless and shameful article has just provided a cheap forum for right-wingers to unload on everyone - even each other. It is fine to criticize Arun Gandhi for his insensitive and rather offensive remarks (and he did the right thing by apologizing), but to bring Mahatma Gandhi into this and portray him as someone unfriendly to the Jews and their plight is outrageous - and a shameless lie. Gandhi had offered Jews a homeland in India. In his own words, he said that his sympathies were "all with the Jews." So, if he prescribed non-violent resistance, why malign him for that, and paint that to be his "moral blind spot?" Is the oppression of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories in the West Bank off your moral radar's blind spot? Please read Mr. Gandhi's autobiography. Second, one of Mr. Gandhi's close associates who came to India from South Africa was a Jewish gentleman by the name of Hermann Kallenbach - do you really expect me to believe that a Jew would move from South Africa to India to gain the company of someone who (in your devilishly tongue-in-cheek implication) is a closeted Anti-Semite? Finally, when Mr. Gandhi was shot (by one of his fellow Hindus, but a shameless right-winder of the RSS), one of the most touching tributes came to him from none other than Albert Einstein. Please take the time to study history a bit (and don't go to WikiPedia; it is not a scholarly source), before you go about distorting history and presenting it gratis. Your shameless and offensive posting does not qualify as the kind of civil discourse and free and respectful exchange of ideas that Fareed Zakaria and David Ignatius had in mind. Shame.

Gayrd and Joe, I agree with Frank. You both sound like bigots.

"I've been studying Asian and African history longer than many people here have been alive...Even the Word Assassin has an Islamic origin."

Oh, and the word "meshugge" has a Yiddish origin, for whatever that's worth. So do "putz," "schmuck," "shmegegge," "zhlub," and "dreck."

Dear Frank,

Assassin comes from Hashissan - a Muslim sect that murdered people in fits of religious exuberence after getting baked on hashish. I am deeply amused that your attempt at Latin "scholarship" is as cogent as your "history."

No Frank, I am not a whacked out Neo-con. However, even if I were Papa-smurf, what I wrote in my post would still be true.

On the more serious end, if you really wish to speak about History then I will clarify. When the war started in 1948, there were no Palestinians. They were called Jordainians then. Those in Gaza were claimed by Egypt and considered Egyptian. So you are right in as much as the Palestinians did not start the war. The people who became Palestinians fought in, and continue to fight the war that Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Syria started.

Now how about you answer a single one of my questions? I dare you... In reality, Frank, dealing with simple minded, irrational and ignorant trolls like you is tiresome. However, it does serve the purpose of letting you know that your nonsense is not something that sane or educated people share.

Dear Frank,

Assassin comes from Hashissan - a Muslim sect that murdered people in fits of religious exuberence after getting baked on hashish. I am deeply amused that your attempt at Latin "scholarship" is as cogent as your "history."

No Frank, I am not a whacked out Neo-con. However, even if I were Papa-smurf, what I wrote in my post would still be true.

On the more serious end, if you really wish to speak about History then I will clarify. When the war started in 1948, there were no Palestinians. They were called Jordainians then. Those in Gaza were claimed by Egypt and considered Egyptian. So you are right in as much as the Palestinians did not start the war. The people who became Palestinians fought in, and continue to fight the war that Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Syria started.

Now how about you answer a single one of my questions? I dare you... In reality, Frank, dealing with simple minded, irrational and ignorant trolls like you is tiresome. However, it does serve the purpose of letting you know that your nonsense is not something that sane or educated people share.

I think that European anti-Semetism is an internal European problem, which non-Europeans do not fully comprehend. This includes most North Americans, most Muslims and Arabs, and most people in Asia and Africa. When outsiders seek to participate in the conversation with only a surface and shallow understanding of the history and problem, then they are bound to step into some deep $hlt.

There was no two hundred year horror inflicted on Africa by the West. Most of the horror inflicted on Africa has been and continues to be inflicted by other Africans.

The first British expedition to Africa in 1848 had only two survivors both dead within five years of their return not because of the Africans themselves but because of Malaria. Until the discovery of quinine in the 1870's or eighties Africa was a death sentence for Europeans.

And slavery was a far more barbaric practice among Africans than it ever was in the US or Europe.

--------------------------------

Garyd,

The word assassin come from the Medieval Latin word "assassinus." Please stop the race-baiting. It doesn't help your cause unless your cause is to be bigoted.

To BD

As to the horror perpetrated in Africa by the west over the last 200 years... You ask what did the Jews do about it... OK, before there was a State of Israel, what could they do? They were scattered and being just as badly opressed for the most part as the Africans. Pogroms were not pleasant. In Africa itself, the Jews lived in Muslim lands and had Dhimmi status. What could they have done?

Now, since there has been a flourishing Jewish community in America and since there has been a state of Israel, the fact is that Jews have always been on the forefront of fighting for things like civil rights. Israel, from its very inception, was one of the few nations to send food and medical aid to Black Africans. This is the reality. Go look it up.

To BD

As to the horror perpetrated in Africa by the west over the last 200 years... You ask what did the Jews do about it... OK, before there was a State of Israel, what could they do? They were scattered and being just as badly opressed for the most part as the Africans. Pogroms were not pleasant. In Africa itself, the Jews lived in Muslim lands and had Dhimmi status. What could they have done?

Now, since there has been a flourishing Jewish community in America and since there has been a state of Israel, the fact is that Jews have always been on the forefront of fighting for things like civil rights and Israel from its very inception was one of the few nations to send food and medical aid to Black Africans. This is the reality. Go look it up.

The Palistinians started and perpetuated the war? Huh? Are you high or something?

The Israelis rolled in and took over their homes. The Palestinians were kicked out of their home and off their land. Of course, they fight just as anyone would fight to get his home back. But, you prefer to blame to oppressed because they lack tanks and helicopter gunships and a voice in the American media.

Joe, you exhibit a true lack of knowledge about history, and you sound suspiciously like a whacked-out braindead neoCON. You sound foolish.

Here's an easy question for you -- do you think Bush is a good president? If you answered "yes," then you are a whacked-out braindead neoCON.

Any good history not written by an Islamic apologist will confirm what I just said. I don't pretend that it the truth is always what we want it to be nor do I pretend that it is always pleasant for either us or our preconceived notions.

I am 59 years old. I've been studying Asian and African history longer than many people here have been alive. There is little historical doubt as to the warlike nature of Islam from the very beginning.

Even the Word Assassin has an Islamic origin.

To Frank,

It looks like you have a moral blindspot with respect to the fact that the Palistinians started and perpetuate the war. It looks like you have a moral blindspot to the fact that things like the wall and the security posts are there to stop "innocent" Pali's from murdering people. It looks like you have a moral blind spot to the fact that the surrounding Arab nations and Iran have been feeding the fight. It looks like you have a moral blindspot to the fact that the Palis really do dance in the streets with body parts, really do murder each other as readily as they murder Jews, really do commit "honor" killings, really do derail the peace process at every oppurtunity, really do have responsibility for electing a government who calls for never making peace and actually committing genocide and they really do launch rockets and commit acts of war every day. You also seem to have a moral blindspot to the fact that Israel is actually Jewish land - no less so then Dublin is Irish or Beijing is Chinese.

To Frank,

It looks like you have a moral blindspot with respect to the fact that the Palistinians started and perpetuate the war. It looks like you have a moral blindspot to the fact that things like the wall and the security posts are there to stop "innocent" Pali's from murdering people. It looks like you have a moral blind spot to the fact that the surrounding Arab nations and Iran have been feeding the fight. It looks like you have a moral blindspot to the fact that the Palis really do dance in the streets with body parts, really do murder each other as readily as they murder Jews, really do commit "honor" killings, really do derail the peace process at every oppurtunity, really do have responsibility for electing a government who calls for never making peace and actually committing genocide and they really do launch rockets and commit acts of war every day. You also seem to have a moral blindspot to the fact that Israel is actually Jewish land - no less so then Dublin is Irish or Beijing is Chinese.

I personally believe that Milli Vanilli was robbed of that Grammy.

Rob, where are you when we need you the most?

Lunacy.

Show me a country with Islamic neighbors and I'll show you country which lives in a near constant state of wars or rumors of Wars.

The so-called religion of peace has been at war since before the quran was ever Written. Muhammad having been at least as much warlord as prophet. Of Muhammads immediate successors over 80% were murdered by other Muslims. Christianity has had Doctrinal schisms. In Islam they have almost always boiled down to wars of succession.

The only time in History when Islam has ever been peaceful is when someone elses foot was upon their throats and they literally could no longer fight.

Jews and Christians on the other hand have been much put upon largely because their ultimate loyalty lies somewhere other than the state which until quite recently from a historical perspective could be summed up succinctly in Louis IV statement "I am the state".

So basically what you are saying is that they can have peace as soon as they quit worshipping as they please.

As usual we seem to look at morality thru certain lenses. In this case the jewish lens. Take a look at the western complicity to the conquest of Africa. And jews living and enjoying the west were complicit in this (look at Abdul Sassoon who was the single most instrumental person to load Chans up with Opium).

What did the western Jews do when Africa was raped and pillaged in the last 200 years. Where was there moral credence when the Arabs were doing the same. Talk about moral hypocrisy.
Go look at the exploitation of Angola and then come back and talk to me about morality.

It looks as though Mr Saperstein has a moral blind spot with respect to Israel and its oppression of the Palestinians.

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
Anyone who thinks jews can live peacefully, and in harmony with any one else in the world has not read their history.

The proof is there for all to see. Scream and yell if you wish. The world, which felt grief over the holocaust, turns anti-semitic again, and not for no reason, as jews always seem to pretend. For reason.

in the last half century or so a first class, civilized, modern people were so sick of jews they stood by, and perhaps aided, getting rid of as many as they could. It's silly to pretend they did't know. It was vile, but that's what happened.

And the Jews behavior in Palestine...their cluster bombs in lebanon, and constant savage aggression wherever, whenever, while whining again, as Saperstein does above, that it's defense is going to have bad results.

Scream and yell and hiss and call names of people who tell the obvious...as above, always with fake names...but there it is. And Israel continues it's genocide every day.

Garyd above points out that if one watches murder and does nothing about it, that person is an accessory...

He must mean that Americans watching the Jews do their thing in the West Bank (and Lebanon and palestine and and and) should do something about it.

I agree. (though garyd didn't mean that Jews shouldn't do whatever they like....just others)

Garyd above points out that if one watches murder and does nothing about it, that person is an accessory...

He must mean that Americans watching the Jews do their thing in the West Bank (and Lebanon and palestine and and and) should do something about it.

I agree. (though garyd didn't mean that Jews shouldn't do whatever they like....just others)

David,

Here is Jewish 'savoir vivre' for you, as exemplified by Israel Defence Force actions today, Tuesday 15 Janury.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2241078,00.html

Moreover, do any of the bloggers who are commenting know that, before the Balfour declaration and the choice of Palestinian lands, no less than five different formerly-colonized countries, or parts of these countries, had been proposed to the Jews as a homeland, among which
Jamaica, Uganda and Madagascar? I alwys remind my interlocutors that, had any of these proposals materialised, it would be the Jamaicans, the Ugandans and the Malagasy people who would be fighting the Israelis, and the decentpeople of this world would still be siding with the oppressed Jamaicans, Ugandans and Malagasy if Israeli policy had been the same as it is today in the land where formerly Palestinians were living and doing what they can to pursue happiness in a non-predatory, non-aggressive way.

Mr. Saperstein writes: "In contrast, one lesson most Jews, and many non-Jews, learned is that there are limits to non-violence, that when confronting an evil that utilizes violence with no moral constraints, peaceful resistance may prove futile. Had it been practiced by the world during World War II, there would be no Jews today."

To conflate the struggle against Nazi Germany with the violence perpetrated by Israel on the people whose land they occupy is, purely and simply, profane. To imply that strafing Palestinian neighborhoods is justified lest there be no Jews today is an assault on reason, not unlike the logic Bush used to invade Iraq after 9/11.

We who watch helplessly while both sides in this endless conflict argue back and forth about who is the good guy and who is the bogey man are frustrated at the lack of will to make progress toward peace. Israel holds all the cards; peace is fundamentally their responsibility. Not solely, but fundamentally.

I, for one, am troubled when weapons provided by my country are used by Israel in indiscriminate mass retribution for acts of terrorism, in clear violation of international law. I'm weary of having a target painted on our back because we blindly support these injustices, as if Israel were our intransigent hoodlum teenage child for whom parental love motivates forgiveness for even the most heinous acts. I'm disappointed that a nation who claims to be our ally will not take the necessary steps reduce the tensions that put our nation at risk.

If Mr. Saperstein is interested in peace, instead of holding forth on the Holocaust, he would be better served by channeling his critique to the Israeli government in the hope that one day this conflict will reach a peaceful conclusion, and hopefully with a minimization of violence on both sides until that peace arrives. We need no more blustering displays of Ariel Sharon on the Temple Mount that ignited this latest round of violence, nor a do-nothing Bush administration that has looked the other way until now that he's desperately trying to rehabilitate his utterly failed Presidency.

We in America need a bottoms-up review of our policy in the Middle East that looks at Israel in the context of its deeds and treats our relationship accordingly. But politicians with the courage to speak candidly on the topic are a rare breed lest they, like I most assuredly will be here, will be painted anti-Semitic for speaking the truth.

ANONYMOUS AT 8:28 A.M.

" ...[T]he world seems to need the oil from that region. Otherwise, it would probably be best to let everyone make peace or butcher each other as they decide."

Why 'otherwise'?

It is ALWAYS best for adults to be left to pursue happiness on their own. It is not because you need the money that is in my pocket, that I should have to tolerate your interference.

Why should it be otherwise in the case of nations? Because, for the time being, there is no supra-national power that can enforce the rulings handed down by the International Criminal Court
(as, for example, is currently the case for Mladic and Karadzic)? That is only a temporary reprieve for the criminals against humanity. The self-sufficient and hyper-powerful Asian NATO is coming to knock on the door of convicted Crminals Against Humanity soon to serve a warrant and maybe arrest them.

Free Palistine!

If one stands by and watches murder and does nothing to stop it one becomes an accessory after the fact.

Denmark got away with nonviolence because Germany simply hadn't the troops to spare to do anything about. So as long as you didn't shoot at them you got ignored.

The Nazis killed the Nonviolent Detrich Bonhoeffer a Lutheran Pastor who bravely spoke out against the slaughter of the Jews.

ISRAEL nought but an strategic USA military base which serving USA domination. The USA returning in reward to ISRAEL it's people's, with placing their actions above the law. Allowing ISRAEL to continue carrying out the most apalling acts of sustained injustice, against Palestinian people, as with the USA further involvment in the Middle East, which resulting in, appalling destruction, murder, torture, untold suffering... .. .

In the end, looking at history and the present, my only reaction can be that all of the players in the middle east deserve each other. The unfortunate thing is that the world seems to need the oil from that region. Otherwise, it would probably be best to let everyone make peace or butcher each other as they decide.

In the end, looking at history and the present, my only reaction can be that all of the players in the middle east deserve each other. The unfortunate thing is that the world seems to need the oil from that region. Otherwise, it would probably be best to let everyone make peace or butcher each other as they decide.

Chatter,

Hello! There you are again, Chatter!

How could you miss a chance to spew your irrepressible anti-Muslim venom?

Should Israel heed Cheny's call to strike Iran?

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/18834.html

Please advise David.

LIZ,

You're losing your mind, sweetie.

You need to see a psychiatrist.

You posted under anonymous, then twice under 'Liz'.

Joe says that EVERY (his emphasis) time there is close to a peace deal, the Arabs blow it up. In fact, the very best chance for a true, lasting peace was forever destroyed when a right wing israeli religious nut case assassinated the great mr Rabin.
I find disturbing the vicious marginalizing of arabs/muslims by american jews in their defense of israel ie calling them dirty,lazy,murderers,cowards,etc.Is not this dehumanizing how anti semitism spread in europe leading up to holocaust?
If israel relys on UN for border legitimacy how can it ignore all later UN resolutions in dispute w/palastinians?

The essence of what we all (including, perhaps, those who try to teach it) seem to need to learn was posted above. Here it is again:

"This commandment have I received of my father. I have the power to lay down my life; and I have the power to take it up again."

Sometimes, I doubt if I understand it yet. It bears repeating.

The essence of what we all (including, perhaps, those who try to teach it) seem to need to learn was posted above. Here it is again:

"This commandment have I received of my father. I have the power to lay down my life; and I have the power to take it up again."

Mr. Saperstein neglects the many cases in which nonviolent resistance was effective during the second World War. He asserts that "one lesson most Jews, and many non-Jews, learned is that there are limits to non-violence, that when confronting an evil that utilizes violence with no moral constraints, peaceful resistance may prove futile. Had it been practiced by the world during World War II, there would be no Jews today."

On the contrary, nonviolent struggle was used against Hitler's aggression in Europe and even in Germany, and sometimes effectively. For example, in Denmark, a mass nonviolent resistance campaign dramatically reduced the potency of the Nazi puppet government. And Mr. Saperstein is perhaps unfamiliar with the Rosenstrasse protests, which took place in Berlin in February of 1943, when German women were able to nonviolently prevent the deportation of their Jewish husbands to concentration camps. And of course, we mustn't forget the efforts of Raoul Wallenberg and many other nonviolent activists in the rescue of thousands of Jews whom the Nazis would have otherwise murdered.

The ability of nonviolent resistance to thwart an enemy's plans, or to undermine the political power of an opponent, should not be underestimated. Mohandas Gandhi's advice to the Jews, to nonviolently resist their extermination, was not simply his wishful thinking, but based on his practical experiences of a successful political strategy against an often brutal British occupation.

Whether the Mahatma or Arun is wrong or not makes no difference.

What WILL make a difference is whether it is the Jewish Nobel Prize winner and mathematician Robert Aumann’s initial assessment of the Jews' strategy for survival that is right, or whether it is his revised one that is right.

Check them out on his website at Hebrew University and in the wikipedia entry under Robert Aumann.

Foi de Juif, as one would put it in French.

What about Arun Ghandi's final statement:

We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.

This is the most vitriolic part of his posting.

Indeed, in blaming Jews for all the worlds' problems and suggesting they constitute a threat to humanity, his words sound frighteningly familiar to some of the worst of Hitler's propoganda...

What about Arun Ghandi's final statement:

We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.

This is the most vitriolic part of his posting.

Indeed, in blaming Jews for all the worlds' problems and suggesting they constitute a threat to humanity, his words sound frighteningly familiar to some of the worst of Hitler's propoganda...

What about Arun Ghandi's final statement:

We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.

This is the most vitriolic part of his posting.

Indeed, in blaming Jews for all the worlds' problems and suggesting they constitute a threat to humanity, his words sound frighteningly familiar to some of the worst of Hitler's propoganda...

John Stevens - though I agree with you that no "true" christian could be anti-semetic, that does not negate the centuries of historical anti-semitism in christian societies, refered to by the essayist. It is like saying that America is founded on the belief that all men are created equal, therefore no "true" American would ever participate in slavery. Though idealistically speaking that is true, it does not erase the unfortunate and tragic fact of American history that is slavery. I can only assume that you brought this point up in order to protect or defend the "name" of true christianity. A noble pursuit, but possibly not relevant to this discussion, only because it seems to split hairs on who (or what ideology) is to blame for the anti-semiticsm over the centuries in Europe, when I believe the essayist's only intention was to remind us of its historical existence. Many muslims might say that the suicide bombers are not real muslims. I doubt you would be willing to concede that there is no such thing as muslim sucide bombings.

Well, it seems the normally hateful are out yet again. I should like to ask anyone hear who likes to bash Israel at any chance that anything Jewish gets even remotely mentioned the following questions:

Please before spitting bile, and freaking out, just answer these questions. You may pose some to me if you answer them, otherwise you show the weakness of your side by dodging them.

1. Many who hate Israel would like to paint her in the most graphic and horrible terms. Frequently on these boards, the Israelis are compared to Nazis. OK... Given that the Palestinian population is booming, and the Israeli army is actually powerful enough to kill all of the Palestinians, yet they are still booming, do you really think there is a genocide going on there? How exactly do you define Genocide then?

2. Given that the Hamas Charter openly calls for the genocide of the Jews, that the Arab nations attacked Israel multiple times with the call of killing all the Jews or driving them into the sea, who is actually genocidal?

3. Given that every time there looks like there might be a peace accord it is the ARABS who start blowing things up, who is to blame for the failure of the process? The Oslo accords gave them 98% of the land they wanted and yet they answered with murders, kidnappings and suicide bombers. So if part of your answer is that you think the Israelis just won't negotiate, you don't even pass the giggle test.

4. Hamas was democratically elected. It is a democratically elected terrorist regime that openly calls for genocide. What responsibilities do the Palestinian electorate have for their choice. Are they really blameless if they vote for a party that has sworn to wage war until Israel is destroyed?

5. Rockets fall on Sderot every day. This is an act of war. How long do you think England would let Holland lob rockets at it? The Hezzies and the Hamasnicks openly try to kidnap and murder innocent civilians every day. Is that also not an act of war? And before you go off on the land see question six.

6. Do you remember when it was the West Bank of Jordan? If the Jordanians repudiated the West Bank, which they did just like the Egyptians repudiated their claim to Gaza, then who has to police and administer the land? Further, do consider that the Palestinians are the sort of people who film themselves dancing in the streets with body parts. This is a fact, not a slur. So seriously, should the land just be left to fall into complete chaos? Would you call dancing in the streets with body parts barbaric? What about honor killings? Are those barbaric too?

7. What about Darfur? All of you who like to bash Israel are woefully silent about Darfur. Darfur is a real honest genocide. Are you silent because the killers are Muslim or because the victims are Blacks?

8. Another question about the land... Does it not surprise you that it has Hebrew names? What about the actual fact that Israel is the actual historic homeland of the Jews? Does that mean nothing? If you do think it means nothing, then what about the UN charter that created it? Does that mean nothing? If you think that means nothing too, then do consider that every other nation in the modern ME was created by treaties and interventions by the West. How is Saudi Arabia, or Jordan or Syria (all used to be part of Ottoman Turkey) which were created by the English and the French not even the UN, more legitimate than Israel. Finally, what about the fact that Israel is the only country in the world to win a war - wars started by others, win and is expected to be punished for winning? Do you expect Germany to get East Prussia back? Perhaps you expect that the Spanish should get Portugal back as well?

Anyway, go ahead and answer these questions factually. If you can then we can talk. If you can not just take your propaganda elsewhere.

Well, it seems the normally hateful are out yet again. I should like to ask anyone hear who likes to bash Israel at any chance that anything Jewish gets even remotely mentioned the following questions:

Please before spitting bile, and freaking out, just answer these questions. You may pose some to me if you answer them, otherwise you show the weakness of your side by dodging them.

1. Many who hate Israel would like to paint her in the most graphic and horrible terms. Frequently on these boards, the Israelis are compared to Nazis. OK... Given that the Palestinian population is booming, and the Israeli army is actually powerful enough to kill all of the Palestinians, yet they are still booming, do you really think there is a genocide going on there? How exactly do you define Genocide then?

2. Given that the Hamas Charter openly calls for the genocide of the Jews, that the Arab nations attacked Israel multiple times with the call of killing all the Jews or driving them into the sea, who is actually genocidal?

3. Given that every time there looks like there might be a peace accord it is the ARABS who start blowing things up, who is to blame for the failure of the process? The Oslo accords gave them 98% of the land they wanted and yet they answered with murders, kidnappings and suicide bombers. So if part of your answer is that you think the Israelis just won't negotiate, you don't even pass the giggle test.

4. Hamas was democratically elected. It is a democratically elected terrorist regime that openly calls for genocide. What responsibilities do the Palestinian electorate have for their choice. Are they really blameless if they vote for a party that has sworn to wage war until Israel is destroyed?

5. Rockets fall on Sderot every day. This is an act of war. How long do you think England would let Holland lob rockets at it? The Hezzies and the Hamasnicks openly try to kidnap and murder innocent civilians every day. Is that also not an act of war? And before you go off on the land see question six.

6. Do you remember when it was the West Bank of Jordan? If the Jordanians repudiated the West Bank, which they did just like the Egyptians repudiated their claim to Gaza, then who has to police and administer the land? Further, do consider that the Palestinians are the sort of people who film themselves dancing in the streets with body parts. This is a fact, not a slur. So seriously, should the land just be left to fall into complete chaos? Would you call dancing in the streets with body parts barbaric? What about honor killings? Are those barbaric too?

7. What about Darfur? All of you who like to bash Israel are woefully silent about Darfur. Darfur is a real honest genocide. Are you silent because the killers are Muslim or because the victims are Blacks?

8. Another question about the land... Does it not surprise you that it has Hebrew names? What about the actual fact that Israel is the actual historic homeland of the Jews? Does that mean nothing? If you do think it means nothing, then what about the UN charter that created it? Does that mean nothing? If you think that means nothing too, then do consider that every other nation in the modern ME was created by treaties and interventions by the West. How is Saudi Arabia, or Jordan or Syria (all used to be part of Ottoman Turkey) which were created by the English and the French not even the UN, more legitimate than Israel. Finally, what about the fact that Israel is the only country in the world to win a war - wars started by others, win and is expected to be punished for winning? Do you expect Germany to get East Prussia back? Perhaps you expect that the Spanish should get Portugal back as well?

Anyway, go ahead and answer these questions factually. If you can then we can talk. If you can not just take your propaganda elsewhere.

John Stevens - though I agree with you that no "true" christian could be anti-semetic, that does not negate the centuries of historical anti-semitism in christian societies, refered to by the essayist. It is like saying that America is founded on the belief that all men are created equal, therefore no "true" American would ever participate in slavery. Though idealistically speaking that is true, it does not erase the unfortunate and tragic fact of American history that is slavery. I can only assume that you brought this point up in order to protect or defend the "name" of true christianity. A noble pursuit, but possibly not relevant to this discussion, only because it seems to split hairs on who (or what ideology) is to blame for the anti-semiticsm over the centuries in Europe, when I believe the essayist's only intention was to remind us of its historical existence. Many muslims might say that the suicide bombers are not real muslims. I doubt you would be willing to concede that there is no such thing as muslim sucide bombings.

Mr. Gandhi ought to write the next piece on how badly peaceful Muslims are treated in India, the nation of his origin.

Please send your regards to David Waters, Jon Meacham and Sally Quinn for continuing to enhance the reputation of Washington Post. Folks, it’s time to increase the proportion of panelists to at least 75% Muslim and the rest, 25% Gandhians…

Obviously, to publish here, it helps if you are a follower of a self-proclaimed religion of peace, or born in a family of a man known for peace; it ain’t matter if you make sense or not, or if you spin a story regardless of the truth!

Mr. Saperstein, in the eyes of Sharia, your views are not worth a whole lot. So what if you speak the truth or that you make sense? The deluge of real “truth” will come from the disproportionate number of Muslim panelists here. You are going to regret that you even opened your mouth!

Folks, if you couldn’t watch Al-Jazeera, not to worry. Keep visiting the On Faith section. You wouldn’t miss a thing!

Mr. David Waters, please hunt down and get Mr. Bin Laden as one of your panelists. You couldn’t find a better fit for this section…

What most impresses me about these posts here is the extremism of the opinions, the anger, the misstatements and the accusations particularly against the Jews. Someone even essentially stated that the Nazi Holocaust in Europe is the same (whether they meant morally or numerically isn't clear; my kingdom for some clear thinking!) as the current fight between the State of Israel and the state of Palestine. Do any of you hope to accomplish anything through this kind of...well, I hesitate to call it a discussion...exchange of ideas?

In all of it, a special thank you to Professor V. V. Raman for his very eloquent and defensible paragraphs: hear, hear.

David Saperstein:

There is no such thing as Christian antisemitism. Anyone who is antisemitic is ipso facto not a Christian. Jesus was a Jew. Think about it. (And lest we forget, Arabs are also semites.)

It seems we can't discuss any of these topics without stepping on someone else's toes.

Non-violence has nothing to do with winning or losing. It has to do with personal moral commitment. If everyone were willing to die rather than kill, there would be no killing.

We Christians follow the example of Jesus Christ, who never killed anyone, neither did he advocate killing anyone, nor did he sanction killing anyone. He laid down his life rather than kill and commanded his disciples to follow his example. Regarding inevitable death and annihilation at the hands of evil savages, we trust that Jesus will raise us from the dead even as God raised him from the dead. "This commandment have I received of my father. I have the power to lay down my life; and I have the power to take it up again."

Call us mad for our belief, but we don't kill anyone.

Those who have not this simple faith are not Christians.

"As for me and my household, we will follow the Lord."

India is a " corrupt and degenerate " country ???

It seems " candide " either does not know the meaning of these words or does not know India. Every country in the world is corrupt and degenerate, the difference is to what degree or what is the yardstick do we use to measure these terms ?

Latest peace of Islam:

10 civilians blown up in Karachi,Pak.

6 civlians blown up at a hotel in Kabul, Afghan.

This is just today's published toll.

Mahatma Gandhi was wrong in assuming that Nazis and Muslims can be won over if we just lay over and let them kill us. Surrender will not stop them from annihilating humans.

I just need to read newspapers to see who is more of a threat to humanity: Jew or a Muslim. Jews do not blow up innocent civilians every day.

Ain't religion great!

Contrary to what "I hate occupation" and Israel bashers alike would like the world to think, Israel is an amazing country. No place else in the middle east do Arabs have as much freedom to live a peaceful life as they do in Israel. For those who haven't actually been to Israel - Israeli Arabs and jews live side by side - they coexist peacefully, work together, become educated, vote, buy land and live within an open democratic nation. Recently, the majority of Israeli Arabs polled showed their preference for Israel remaining a jewish state. The world loves to hate Israel as "I hate occupation" has said. Nobody wants to see the palestinians suffer - not the Israelis - not anybody who cares about humanity. Its a shame they have been held hostage by those who seek to "drive jews into the sea" at the expense of their own people.

Continuing to kill will never bring an end to killing. Q.E.D.

Therefore, despite the seeming illogic and supposed inefficacy of nonviolent resistance, in the final analysis it can be the only tactic which will enable humankind to make spiritual progress as a species.

And if we do not pursue spiritual progress, then of what value is our humanity?

"An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"

many of the above posts seem to be offensive.
Are we evolving into a better humanity or not?

Talk about blind spots. Rabbi Sapperstein is obviously of the school that conflates anti-zionism with anti-semitism. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine has been the essence of Zionism since its inception. The "new historians" of Israel (Benny Morris, Illan Pappe, etc) have shown documentary evidence that ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people was always at the heart of the Zionist project. Some reach different conclusions, such as Benny Morris who believes that the ethnic cleansing was a practical and moral necessity and bemoans only the incompletion of it. But no honest historian today doubts the truth of this part of the Zionist project. The fact that Rabbi Sapperstein refers to the stopping of ethnic cleansing elsewhere as a positive use of the holocaust, while totally ignoring it in Israel does, indeed, show an incredible moral blind spot.

I hate occupation,

If you truly hated occupation you'd quit provoking Israel to enter. Israel has shown for decades now that it will always respond in kind to every provocation. Unfortunately the Palestinian leadership continues to prove to be slow learners.

If the Palsetinian leadership spent half as much time trying to improve the conditions of the people over whom they rule as they have trying to drive Israel, into the sea one bomb at a time the Palestinians would be living in a paradise instead of a hell hole

Israel is hated in every country in the world except for the United States. Of course, the United States voted in Bush for two consecutive terms.
There is no doubting the Holocaust. God Forbid it from being repeated. However, the Rabbi is a biased clown. Israel is racist and murderous. I have seen it, felt it, heard it, with my owns eyes in Ramallah.
Rabbi: defending Israel does not require settlements, walls and apartheid. Defending Israel does not require checkpoints and Israeli soldiers beating women and children if not killing them. Defending Israel does not require usurping more land and bombing everything in sight. Israel claims to be a democracy. It claims to be on the higher ground. In truth, its just another murderous Middle Eastern. ISRAEL HAS BECOME JUST LIKE ITS NEIGHBORS AND JUST LIKE HITLER. The arabs rubbed off on you in the wrong way. Hitler left his legacy to you not in THE Holocoust. His legacy of hate and evil has BECOME ISRAEL. Israel has become the devil. A killer.

I see the revisionist historians of the neo-Jordanians are at it again. First there were as little as a 120 years ago no choice parts in Palsestine and Palestine was a part of a province, largely uninhabited, of the Ottoman Empire.

Jews seeking to return to their homeland began buying plots of ground in the area at that time and improving the relatively barren land they found.

2nd the willingness of Paletinian gunmen to use their own people male and female young and old and then complain loud and long when some of these are inevitably killed in the crossfire reveals the true barbarity of the Palestinian leadership.

There be no escape from crimes committed, it may not seem so on the suface yet such being so. The crimes that committed by a German nation, Govt, against the jewish people, one fail putting into words the horror, the brutality, the inhumanity, the injustice, all being as brought to account. Yet, ( ISRAEL ) nation as Govt must look to it's own wrongdoings, the ISRAELI nation, it's Govt's treatment of the Palestinian people, in turn of the most appalling nature, in brutality, murder, destruction, injustice beyond measure. not being limited within the borders of ISRAEL, Palestine. Such horror having spread to much of the Middle East, which ISRAEL be directly as indirectly be responsable. The time left for humanity limited the planet enabled, continue in sustaining life. That the end being brought to present chapter in the human development, of our spiritual journey. I strongly advise, that ISRAEL's people's, Govt use time left wisely, ending the conflict in of the Middle East, bringing long awaited creation of a free independent Palestine. SHALOM xxxX

First, apparently the rabbi has no idea who Arun Gandhi is...nor what was his relationship to Mahatma. Ignorant.

Secondly, speaking of never contemplating the lessons of history! Now, well more than half a century later, Jews are managing again to make themselves detested all over the world again, by decent people who hate injustice

Anti-semitism grows in America and certainly in Europe.And Asia. The rabbi might wish to use his energy to preach about that.

First, apparently the rabbi has no idea who Arun Gandhi is...nor what was his relationship to Mahatma. Ignorant.

Secondly, speaking of never contemplating the lessons of history! Now, well more than half a century later, Jews are managing again to make themselves detested all over the world again, by decent people who hate injustice

Anti-semitism grows in America and certainly in Europe.And Asia. The rabbi might wish to use his energy to preach about that.

Mr Saperstein was a poor choice for the response for the reason that his bias is immediately suspect.

An Athiest or Agnostic would have been a better choice.

Providence

Gandhi's policy of non-violence is over-rated and is of little practical value as i have argued elsewhere. That policy and that message resonated with the British because the British had a democracy, a strong tradition of law and order, and a collective public conscience--qualities that were sorely lacking in Nazi Germany. The Nazis would have wasted no time in putting Gandhi and all his followers in the gas chamber within 24 hours.

If all evil can be won over through non-violence, then the Mahabharata need not have been written (that too by Lord Ganesha). Sometimes, the only way to confront evil is to wage war.

Gandhi was also a politician. The edging out of Subhas Bose from the Indian National Congress by Mahatma Gandhi and his supporters is testament to Gandhi's political acumen. But Bose's armed struggle for Indian independance is given a short shift by Gandhi and the establishment. The British also left India because they found the country increasingly costly and difficult to rule.

I am originally from South Asia. I agree with Rabbi Saperstein on the Holocaust. The limits of nonviolence are self-evident. Gandhi's methods, while admirable in certain circumstances, can become infuriating in others.

India itself abandoned non-violence a long time ago, whether in dealing with internal insurgencies or with neighboring countries like Sri Lanka and Pakistan. While the Indian forces were in Sri Lanka ostensibly as part of the Indian Peace Keeping Forces (IPKF),they committed unspeakable atrocities, including random mass scale murders and rapes. Today, India is playing a double game in Sri Lanka, supporting the murderous regime in that country--a regime whose abysmal record of human rights violations has been exposed by the HRW, the UN Human Rights Commission and others.

Arun Gandhi should perhaps focus more on ensuring justice to all peoples in South Asia first.

That said, on the Palestinian question, Mr. Gandhi is right on certain things--despite all that is true about the Holocaust, the Jewish people should put themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians who have been uprooted from their lands and made refugees. By doing so, they should try to understand the violence of the Palestinian militants; the Israeli government's heavy use of overpowering violence in the name of countering the violence of the dispossessed Palestinians is unjust. It is only leading to a vicious cycle of unending violence.

The violence of the Palestinians should not be conflated with the mindless, religiously inspired terror of the AL Qeada and allied Jihadists.

Saperstein's smug, supercilious little screed is the same old stuff, and not less disgusting for the repeting.

Yes, yes, now as always in history, the Jews are are the put upon, the innocent. Their soothing eye for eye philosophy, their healing in the world, the humility. The working with and giving wherever they go. History is rife with it.

And CERTIANLY hey have acted ONLY IN DEFENSE in Israel!

Which defense has led to the takeover of now some now 46% of Palestinian territory. The best parts... of course, just
HAPPENES TO BE THE PART THAT SITS ON THE AQUAFOR,
and on the hills and most beautiful valleys. The target practice on anyone who goes on their
stolen roads is defense, too.

Gandhi had nothing at all to apologize for. The whole world agrees and says so repeatedly.

Worthless, yet a killing was made in west coast real estate during WWII period. Disinter the disinterested to see if the fillings of their teeth have been stolen from them.

Worthless, yet a killing was made in west coast real estate during WWII period. Disinter the disinterested to see if the fillings of their teeth have been stolen from them.

Did you raise a finger to protest the 1100 plus innocent lebanese civilians that the Israeli army massacred last summer? You filthy hypocrite.

No human can deny that Hitler and most Germans dehumanized all non germans especially those of the Jewish faith and actively participated in their extermination. A minority of European of jewish faith survived the war by mere chance and by migrating out of the conflict countries. Some went to Paslestine to join other jews of European ancestry who gave up on ever being accepted by the Christian Europeans.
These facts should not be mixed with the present day facts of the discriminatory treatment of Christian and Moslem minorities within Israel and the daily apartheid treatment by Israel of the the Christian and moslem Palestinians in their homes in the West Bank. No one can deny 20th century Holocaust in Europe and no one should deny Israel 21st century apartheid in Palestine.

Mr. saperstein writes..."Bosnia, Kosovo, and Darfur. It is not surprising that Jews have played a lead role in all three of those latter examples" What a bunch of lies!!!! Why aren't the jews who bashed Arun Gandhi so much, calling out this liar? Is it because Jews love a liar and hate someone who tells the truth? Like Mr. Gandhi?

When sneaky JAPanese sneak attacked with racial equality clauses sneaked into League Of Nations, did either YIDdish or HEBErew support effort of sneaky JAPanese? When JAP-American were herded into concentration camps in America, did the writer's grandfather object? A killing was made in west coast real estate. Disinter the disinterested to see if the fillings of their teeth were stolen from them.

When sneaky JAPanese sneak attacked with racial equality clauses sneaked into League Of Nations, did either YIDdish or HEBErew support effort of sneaky JAPanese? When JAP-American were herded into concentration camps in America, did the writer's grandfather object? A killing was made in west coast real estate. Disinter the disinterested to see if the fillings of their teeth were stolen from them.

"I think Arun Gandhi spoke the truth. He is a neutral thinker, unlike this writer, who has seen Palestinians men, kids and women slaughtered by Israel army and despite baing a jewish, did not stop it. I did not witness the Holocaust in Germany but I am witnessing one happening NOW in Palastine."

These are the types of lies and evil propaganda that is spewed forth from the mouths and pens of terrorists in the middle east. Israel does NOT "target" civilians. That's part of the palestinian playbook. While I don't agree with some of the practices of the Israeli government, it does have the right to exist and defend itself. The palestinians have a habit of putting their "innocent" young and families in the midst of military targets. The palestinians don't want peace--but they do want Israelis to die. You don't read the vitriol that is spewed forth from arab/palestinian newspapers in the Israeli media. In the Israeli media, one can read reasoned debate about policies. The jews are a peaceful just people. But they are no longer "sheeps to slaughter". They will defend themselves and have every right to.

David, civil people will agree with you. Thank you for your response to the Gandhi's ignorant and hateful column. It would have been better for the editors to apologize for allowing such an attack and to pull it from the website. But with so many hateful posters, they must love the controversy and reasoned debate be damned!

Statements in a Tense world
If the twentieth century will be remembered for its consciousness-raising recognitions regarding the evils in colonialism, racism, gender-inequality, and the like, this century will be characterized by cultural sensitivity and caution in public utterances by thinkers, intellectuals, celebrities, and actual or presumed leaders. This is because we now live in a world of angry confrontations which are relics of past injustices, historical rancor, and cultural affirmations inspired by feelings of insecurity and marginalization, actual and imaginary. All this is in the midst of political tensions between ethnic groups, religious adherents, and claimants to the same piece of land in many parts of the world.
In this context, spokespeople for every group and subgroup, let alone national leaders, proclaim their respective points of view which tend to be blind and deaf to the needs and arguments of the adversaries. Highly sensitive situations get periodically inflamed further by the publication of an article or a book or the release of a statement by someone in the public arena.
What we need more are more voices that serve to bring about greater understanding between the belligerents and peace to the arena. Thus, for example, in the context of the Israel-Palestinian issue, one may express the hope that Israel as a nation would show more sympathy for the prolonged suffering of the people of Palestine and their legitimate aspirations for a free and independent state. This is a hope shared by the vast majority of people all over the world, including many Jews and Israelis also. At the same time, we may express the hope that Muslims, both Shea and Sunni, would develop greater understanding of the need for Jews to have their own homeland after centuries of veing victimized and marginalized, however small in area, where they can live in peace with their Arab Abrahamic neighbors. This too is a view shared by the vast majority of people in the world, including, I dare say, many in the Islamic world.
It seems to me that statements like these can be made without referring to the Holocaust or to the indiscriminate murders in the guise of jihad. Indeed, little is served for the cause of peace when we condemn one side or the other. Both sides, in any confrontation, except where criminals and victims are involved, usually have legitimate grievances towards each other.
While every independent thinker has the right to choose sides, and to speak out fearlessly and honestly what one thinks about an issue, it seems to me that it is no less important for people whose words carry some weight and who are not party in the conflict to either come to the enemies with a message of peace, or keep one’s harsh partial views to oneself. If not, one contributes little to the healing of the wounds, and adds a little or much to aggravating an already unhappy situation.
Let us all strive for peace.

Professor V. V. Raman

The great failing of Nonviolent rebellion is that it can in the end only be successful against Western Democracies. Against anyone but the British or Americans no one would have ever again heard of Ghandi after he first began be conceived of as a threat to their rule.

Neither the Former Soviet Union or the Czars would have had any compunction about murdering him and placing the body in an unmarked grave.

I think Arun Gandhi spoke the truth. He is a neutral thinker, unlike this writer, who has seen Palestinians men, kids and women slaughtered by Israel army and despite baing a jewish, did not stop it. I did not witness the Holocaust in Germany but I am witnessing one happening NOW in Palastine.

Although Indian, I have to agree with the comments here. Gandhi's nonviolence had its limits. It was powerful enough to deal with Great Britain which relied on its public image for its standing and trade and economic relations with the US, but flawed when it came to the butchering of a people by madmen and their supporters such as Hitler and the various acts of muslim barbarianism against Hindus in the Indian subcontinent which did lead to the virtual extermination of Hindus in what is now pakistan.

Nonviolence does not work with people who will exploit it and just see it as an easier way to kill you and your people as you have decided not to fight back.

Iran and Israel have that in common: they're both belligerent theocracies that endanger and threaten their neighbors.

I would like to take issue with Mr Saperstein conflating the ignorant comments and subsequent inadequate apology from Arun Gandhi with the position Mahatma Gandhi took with respect to the Holocaust. Mahatma Gandhi specifically supported the Allies in World War II and did not oppose the participation of the British Indian Army in the war. Over 2 million Indian soldiers served in WW2.

What Mr Arun Gandhi so artlessly attempted to address (and Mr Saperstein ignores) is that Israel applies force far in excess of its legitimate defense needs to support, for instance, illegal settlements in the West Bank. Collective punishment such as road blocks, destruction of homes and infrastructure etc., merely fuel an endless cycle of revenge attacks and retribution. If Israel were smarter about achieving its legitimate defense objectives and not under the thrall of a small minority of religious extremists, there would be far greater sympathy around the world for them and a greater appreciation of the thriving democracy that they've achieved.
- TS

The author is a joke. He gives us the usual spiel abouth the holocaust while conveniently ignoring Israeli actions that had nothing to do with protecting the life of Israellis.

Israel has used violence to ethnically cleanse palestinians from their lands. The settlements in the Occupied Territories has nothing to do with protecting jews.

A country as "corrupt and degenerate" as India???

Yeah, Indians can be pretty arrogant in their attitudes about Westerners and Western culture, but I wouldn't call them "corrupt and degenerate."

What is "corrupt and degenerate" is the idea that Queen Latifah should lose weight.

"In contrast, one lesson most Jews, and many non-Jews, learned is that there are limits to non-violence, that when confronting an evil that utilizes violence with no moral constraints, peaceful resistance may prove futile."
----------------------

Agreed, but then what limits might a 'sovereign entity' place on revolution and should those so engaged be labeled how ??? Combatants perhaps ???

How should Hague Conventions be applied to these 'combatants,' since as I understand it, those Conventions exclude from their scope of coverage individuals, however labeled, who engage in revolution.

How should we distinguish violent uprisings by individuals so impacted? As I understand it, currently that would be labeled as 'criminals.'

Finally, we here in the USA are quick to see flaws with other nations that perhaps we fail to see from within.

I agree with David. Many Indians have told me that Mohotma Ghandi was a fraud who greatly enjoyed the lifestyle that fame brought him.

I also think Queen Latifah looks better as a big woman.

Hindus tend to be self-righteous, especially when dealing with Westerners. A country as corrupt and degenerate as India has no standing when discussing moral questions.

My readings tell me that every instrument of German society participated willingly in the Holocaust, including the public, schools, industry, police, banks and financial institutions and housing. Every one including churches participated. Hitler acted only as the conductor of terror with all of society assisting. However, I read that the Jehovah's Witnesses opposed him and paid a terrible price in suffering and death for this. As a Christian, I oppose any attempts to reduce the scope, scale, and intensity of the record or to minimize the active cooperation of the German people in this. This sin cannot be in any way reduced by re writing history.
I strongly oppose any attempts to place responsibility on victims, rather than the society and its leaders.

David,

This should be a no-brainer ! Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was a hypocrite. When Muhammad Surahwahrdy butchered 3000 Hindus in Kolkata around 1946, the elder Gandhi asked Hindus to forgive and forget. Gandhi was a great Muslim appeaser, and hence by default he has to be anti-Jewish.

I am ashamed of this man (M. K. Gandhi) being labeled as the "Father of the Nation (India)".

BTW, Arun Gandhi is the grandson of Mohandas Gandhi. Indira Gandhi's grandsons are Rahul Gandhi (from Rajiv Gandhi) and Varun Gandhi (from Sanjay Gandhi). Obviously, some B. Patel doesn't have the facts straight either, but has the audacity to challenge others.

I agree with Mr. Saperstein. Arun Gandhi draws some rather unsubstantionable conclusions.

I also think Queen Latifah should should get off her Jenny Craig diet and get even fatter. I love that woman, but she looks better as a Massive Mama than a Skinny Benny. Man, I love fat Queen Latifah, but she's going to waste away like Mohotma Ghandi. She should bet fatter and be like MO-HOTTER CANDY!!!

Yummy! Oh, Latifah, you are my African Queen, but only if you're big enough for me and Bogart and Hepburn to climb aboard and cruise down the river.

Can I get a high-five on that? Don't leave me hanging.