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Not Yet The Majority But No Longer Silent
There are many more atheists and agnostics in the country than is generally recognized. For instance, we atheists and agnostics are as numerous as Southern Baptists, and we are also the fastest growing category–-faster even than the Mormons and the evangelicals.
Why, then, are we atheists in general so unnoticed, and why is this changing? Since atheists, in general, think there are much more important and interesting topics to discuss than whether or not God -- which God? -- exists, we seldom raise the issue.
But recent trends in America have suggested to many of us that this diplomatic reticence has been exploited by sectarian ideologues, evangelists, politicians, and others intent on maintaining the illusion that we are a negligible fringe community, so we are encouraging those who agree with us to come out of the closet .
I use the idiom advisedly. A few decades ago, homosexuality was looked upon as so shameful that few dared declare themselves, and as a result, most homosexuals had to lie their way through life, for fear of losing their jobs, their reputations, their friends and family.
How times have changed -- and for the better! It is now possible for homosexuals to be elected to Congress, to star in television shows, to be honored for their accomplishments and treasured by their friends. Could an atheist be elected to Congress? Probably not now, but if we can just raise the consciousness of Americans to the fact that some of their best friends are atheists, this will change.
In July, 2003, I wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times entitled "The Bright Stuff", where I drew attention to a budding movement among atheists intent on copying an idea from the homosexuals’ excellent campaign: the hijacking of a perfectly good word with an established meaning, gay, and putting it to use with a new meaning, as a consciousness-raiser.
The term "bright" was chosen by two brights in Sacramento -- Paul Geisert and Mynga Futrell -- who thought we freethinkers (atheists, agnostics, et al -- needed a fresh name. In the aftermath of my op-ed piece, I’ve read quite a few articles and thousands of messages about the term “bright.”
Most people who bother writing don’t like the term -- including many brights (as I persist in calling them). It’s rude, disrespectful, antagonizing, they say. In other words, it’s just like “gay” (hey, you heteros, how do you like the implication that you’re glum and gloomy?).
I am still not convinced that it was a mistake to go with bright. These things take time. Had Geisert and Futrell chosen some bland, mealymouthed term most would have forgotten it by now. The “in your face” quality of the term is, in my opinion, a piquant, but mild, antidote to the prevailing practice of hyper-deference paid to religions but to no other institution in the country. And I have reminded those who find the term objectionable that just as the antonym of gay isn’t glum, but straight -- another happy word -- they are free to choose a peppy antonym for bright. I recommend super, since, unlike us brights, they believe in the supernatural.
Of course when gay was first promoted in its current use, many in the gay community loathed the term, and some still do. But eventually it won, and it created a way of talking that was vivid and healthy. Gay pride. Gay rights. Gays were encouraged to come out of the closet, and the nation was amazed to discover how many of its favorite sons and daughters were gay. That changed everything. It’s probably impossible to gauge how big a role the term played in the benign revolution in American attitudes towards homosexuality, but it certainly didn’t hurt.
Whether or not the term bright catches on over the years, I think the movement to encourage brights to identify themselves (in whatever terms they like) is on a roll. Young people and old people write to me about their joy and relief when they discover that they are not alone.
It is still too early, probably, to elect a bright to Congress. Candidates will continue to grit their teeth and tell their fibs about their “faith” in order to get elected, and many who see through this but recognize a good candidate when they see one will continue to button their lips and vote for these tellers of white lies -- including many who are themselves deeply religious but don’t believe you have to be religious to be good!
It would be better if we could simply wade through all this hypocrisy and acknowledge that there is simply no truth at all in the standard myth that without religion a person cannot be a good and honest citizen. We have discovered that Catholics and Jews (and gays and lesbians) can be excellent guardians of the public trust, and in due course we will recognize that not only are brights electable but that we have already elected, and honored, many thousands of closeted brights to high office -- including the Presidency -- in our past.
In my op-ed piece, I included some advice:
"If you're a bright, what can you do? First, we can be a powerful force in American political life if we simply identify ourselves. (The founding brights maintain a Web site on which you can stand up and be counted.) I appreciate, however, that while coming out of the closet was easy for an academic like me -- or for my colleague Richard Dawkins, who has issued a similar call in England -- in some parts of the country admitting you're a bright could lead to social calamity. So please: no 'outing.' "
I do think this is very important. I have received many anguished messages from brights living in red states who believe (correctly, I surmise, but I don’t know) that if they were to come out of the closet, they would be driven out of business if not out of town. So we must be patient, and gentle, and let people keep their faith–-or lack of it–-to themselves.
In the meantime, can we public atheists have productive conversations with believers? Certainly. We can discuss every issue under the sun, and particularly the great questions of ethics and public policy, respecting each other as citizens with honest disagreements about fundamental matters that can be subjected to reasonable, open inquiry and mutual persuasion. As I said in my first posting to On Faith, we all need to agree to live by the principles of rational discourse. That, and common courtesy, is the only rule we need–-just as in science.
As long as those who are believers will acknowledge that their allegiance gives them no privilege, no direct line to the absolute truth, no advantage in moral insight, we should be able to get along just fine.
By
Daniel C. Dennett
|
December 30, 2006; 11:07 AM ET
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Posted by: ro422ck | June 25, 2007 2:53 AM
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Recently I came upon a column that I had set aside by Sally Quinn in the AZ Republic "Immoral options are only choices left in Iraq" telling of her experience as a young child years ago of returning to the US from Korea on a Army medevac plane with wounded/dying military personel. It tore me up...especially considering what is going on now in Iraq in which the "Bush gang" fails to even mention the thousands of mutilated men and women who have yet to be counted in the mounting 3000 dead GIs.
During the Viet Nam era I was assigned to Walter Reed Hospital (WRAIR)in experimental surgery and needed to periodically visit the Forest Glen center near Walter Reed that "housed" Nam wounded with severe chronic war injuries, eg devastating wounds to the head, amputees etc. I visited with many of these people...those who were capable of communicating that is....and became aware myself of the untold horrors of war. I can sympathize with the experiences of Ms. Quinn!
Posted by: Roger Jaenke | January 31, 2007 9:52 PM
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Daniel Dennett is simply awesome.
Posted by: John | January 30, 2007 7:11 PM
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Well said Elaine!
Posted by: Paladin7 | January 30, 2007 2:13 PM
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A few days ago, someone I don't know, Ernest Reinhart, posted a comment about the importance of recognizing how others perceive your words. That has great significance not only for the issue of the word "bright" (I'm comfortable with it myself), but for the constant reference to the gay model for seeking greater acceptance and open participation in society. We don't have to refer to them to prove that we're not prejudiced, but we don't have to take on the burden of others' prejudice against them either.
There is still discomfort and much worse among the general public when it comes to sexual orientation. For atheists to keep pointing out that gay people are now more accepted than they used to be and that is a model for atheists is the most misbegotten rhetorical device imaginable. We need to remain focused and disciplined to keep our cause from being confused with other issues.
Posted by: Elaine | January 22, 2007 9:52 AM
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Wow. This has been a long and interesting thread. It's good to see debate on these issues. Isn't the Internet wonderful!
I am hopeful that the widely held connotation for the term "Bright" will become positive and useful over time. After reading this thread, I have some doubts but I certainly applaud the concept and have long recognized it's necessity.
I do not believe in God. While I am certainly willing to call myself an atheist, defining my outlook by stating what I am not is woefully incomplete. As defined at the site (www.the-brights.net ) it makes sense to try and grow a word that simply means one who pursues natural rather than super-natural explanations for the universe around us.
It is predictable that many who prefer supernatural explanations for life, the universe and everything would see the promotion of the term "Bright" as a vitriolic attack on their intelligence. I also hear atheists and agnostics rejecting the term for the same reason. Whether it's "Bright" or some other word (Dennett invites suggestions), there does need to be some acceptable word that holders of a naturalistic view can rally around. We need a word with deeper meaning than a simple "I am not this" or "I am not that". It most certainly won't happen over night but it does need to happen. Regardless of the word, getting freethinkers to promote political concepts with anything resembling one voice is going to be like herding cats. However, the simple premise of promoting the freedom not to believe should be an easy sell with freethinkers far and wide.
I can understand how believers might feel that the term "Bright" is a sleight, but I am not losing sleep over the talk of vitriol. Atheists do not enter debates in churches, mosques and synagogues about what Christians, Muslims and Jews should call themselves. Besides, if a group of people wish to call themselves anything that means something besides "not you" what business is it of yours. Is the pious, moral superiority of believers so great they feel deserving of a voice in this matter? Also, construing the word "Bright" as a sleight to you is nothing compared to the disgusting premise of Christianity and other religions which hold that simply because I do not believe, I am deserving of eternal punishment. How vitriolic is that?
Posted by: Paladin7 | January 19, 2007 11:28 PM
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While reading " Words that Work " by Dr. Frank Luntz, I came across this paragraph that we can all learn from.
" You can have the best message in the world, but the person on the receiving end will always understand it through the prism of his or her own emotions, perceptions, prejudices and existing beliefs. It's not enough to be correct or reasonable or even brillant. The key to successful communication is to take the imaginative leap of stuffing yourself into your listeners shoes to know what they are thinking and feeling in the deepest recesses of their mind and heart. How that person perceives what you say is more real at least in a practical sense than how you perceive yourself."
Posted by: ernest reinhart | January 18, 2007 9:18 AM
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I can reccommend a book that seems (I'm only in the third chapter) to show that the more theology you know, the more appealing atheism is. It's called _A History of God, The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam_, by Karen Armstrong.
Armstrong knows a good bit about theology. She was a nun for some years, and spent all her spare time at the convent studying theology. When she realized she wasn't getting any closer to God, she gave up the religious life and let her belief "slip quietly away."
She continued to study the history of religion, however, made several TV shows about it, and has now written this book. It's an honest history of monotheism (I'm enough of a history buff and student of religion myself to know she's not pulling the wool over my eyes), and it clearly demonstrates (so far) that religious beliefs are man made.
I reccommend it to believers and non-believers.
Posted by: John Conolley | January 12, 2007 12:03 AM
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"our lack of "theological knowledge" - an oxymoron if there ever was one"
Not to be a nit-picker, or anything, but the deterioration of the English language really bugs me. An oxymoron is a phrase that seems to contradict itself, but actually has a point, such as "jumbo shrimp," or "cold fire."
"Theological knowledge" is not an oxymoron. It's a contradiction.
Posted by: John Conolley | January 11, 2007 11:41 PM
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I have enough faith in atheism and atheists to believe there MUST be some intelligent ones out there SOMEWHERE...
-------------------
Thats it is it? Nothing left? Well goodbye then, it's been truly excruciating.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 10, 2007 1:06 AM
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I have enough faith in atheism and atheists to believe there MUST be some intelligent ones out there SOMEWHERE...
Lord knows the law of averages would strongly suggest so at this point.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 10, 2007 12:55 AM
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I can't believe you repeat the absurd notion that just because you "feel" one thing is more likely than another, you can speculate about "pure statistical probabilities". A statistical probability is established through observation and testing (numbers!) and is not something you simply assert!?
--------------------------
Come along, this isn't hard:-) If a body of irrational people talk disingenous crap, and I replace 50% of them with honest rational people, the total disingenous crap generated from the group will fall. I don't need to know specifics about the total volume of the group, their tendency to talk crap, or the relative increase in honest and rationality introduced by the replacements, to know that this is absolutely and unequivocally true.
I notice you avoid the rapture question. There are only two reasons for this.
1) You know we'll all have a good laugh if you do subscribe to such an disturbed idea.
2) You actually beleive it, but are justifiably embarrased.
Either way anything other than a no leaves your credibility, well what few tatters are left, further diminished.
Mr. A. give us a good laugh tell us about the rapture and jesus, you've really got nothing else to say. Why continue to deny your lord?:-) Our eternal salvation rests in your hands. Guess we are screwed then ... if your success to date is anything to go by:-)
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 9, 2007 11:27 PM
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Sorry, but it's prejudice unless it's established on the basis of facts and evidence under some kind of fair and objective standard, with right of appeal. Full stop.
I can't believe you repeat the absurd notion that just because you "feel" one thing is more likely than another, you can speculate about "pure statistical probabilities". A statistical probability is established through observation and testing (numbers!) and is not something you simply assert!?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 4:17 PM
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I value the constitutional prohibition against religious tests for public office. I'd have to have a pretty serious reason to advocate for abrogating it. And I would have to have — you know, that evidence stuff — solid evidence of a clear and present danger. The attitude expressed above is called prejudice.
-----------------------
Not at all. You are confusing prejudice with a rational judgement of a persons competence. Prejudice is a baseless discrimination, the kind of discrimination I mean is not baseless at all, and is of course the kind of fact based discrimination we all engage in daily. Or do you make no judgements whatever about the relative skills, competencies and abilities of those you interact with? Remind me never to hire you ... for anything:-)
For example, what if your religious belief led you to the conclusion that eating the livers of small children was vital to their salvation, and yours? Would that be OK? An extreme example, sure, but really not terribly far removed from the book of revelations.
Religious beliefs, held with sufficient conviction are a danger to the public. Just ask those that died on 9/11. If you think that Jesus is returning and you are going to be raptured, you are operating at very low level of mental health, and are frankly dangerous. The more powerful your position, the greater the danger. This is really very simple, pure statistical probabilities.
That you are having such trouble grasping this simple concept has me wondering about YOUR mental health:-) Do you REALLY want people that believe outrageous things, absent any evidence whatever (we at least got agreement on that right?), running the worlds most powerful nation? Maybe you do:-)
Do YOU think Jesus is returning and that you are going to be raptured? If not why not?
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 9, 2007 3:36 PM
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Oh, there is a logical statement.
Maybe Anon has the ability after all.
he says
Brian's belief that
Genocide advocates are a danger to others
shows that Brian does not believe in the separation of church and state.
Could you repeat that?
We are supposed to take Logic criticism from someone who doesn't even know his own name?
Posted by: Jamesq | January 9, 2007 3:34 PM
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Where, oh where, are the True Atheists, the Mighty Reason-Warriors as of Old?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 3:25 PM
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"You seem to be confused about what statistics ARE. We don't need specific numbers to know that fewer drunk drivers would result in fewer road deaths it's that kind of statistical thing."
Yowza! You didn't really say that!? That's just too fat a target. As penance for previous sins I'm holding my fire — but I expect to be given credit for it!
"If you beleive in the literal return of Jesus Christ, the rapture and the holy genocide of unbeleivers, AND are in a position of power, you are a danger to yourself and others."
I value the constitutional prohibition against religious tests for public office. I'd have to have a pretty serious reason to advocate for abrogating it. And I would have to have — you know, that evidence stuff — solid evidence of a clear and present danger. The attitude expressed above is called prejudice.
But of course, that can't be, because you're all about reason, empiricism, facts, and evidence, you atheist you!
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 3:11 PM
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Ache-a-holics Anonymous's Problem
Brian
I think you hit on Mr A's problem.
It was so obvious, so right in front of our noses, that we didn't see it.
We assumed he was not brilliant, as he had represented himself to be, but just of regular intelligence.
The clearly correct conclusion is that he has
Fatal Logical Defiency Syndrome.
It's not that he doesn't *want* to make a salient and logical response to your points.
It is that he is not *capable* of doing so.
it's not his heart, lord, it's his mind.
maybe its all the Iranian beer I've been feeding him (or her).
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 3:00 PM
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If it is a statistical thing, where are the statistics? You make no conclusions without data, right? Show us the data!
Or is the truth that you guys are no more fact-based than anybody else?
-----------------------
You seem to be confused about what statistics ARE. We don't need specific numbers to know that fewer drunk drivers would result in fewer road deaths it's that kind of statistical thing.
It's really quite hard to miss the point here, but you are doing an amazing job:-) Let me spell it out, while narrowing your options for disengenous equivocation.
If you beleive in the literal return of Jesus Christ, the rapture and the holy genocide of unbeleivers, AND are in a position of power, you are a danger to yourself and others. Or do you disagree?
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 9, 2007 2:39 PM
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Love means never having to say you're sorry. Brian knows I am naughty, and in fact he likes it... He likes it a lot.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 2:27 PM
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If I missed the point, what rational verifiable point were you making, exactly?
"In fact, there is some evidence that GWB already sees himself as doing the bidding of a 'higher' father."
Fine — so produce the evidence, evidence guy. If he simply meant he pondered whether he was doing the right thing, there is nothing whatsoever sinister about that, and if you are threatened by it you're delusional. If he said God phoned in a target list with coordinates, I will be happy to acknowledge that you were right.
"I am disturbed by his obvious faith and proximity to the launch codes for thousands of nuclear weapons."
And your evidence is what? You reach conclusions based solely on evidence, right — not prejudice, hatred, peer pressure or a febrile imagination, right? What is the evidence?
"By reducing faith in such apocalyptic myths, generally, the overall risk is reduced. It's a statistical thing."
If it is a statistical thing, where are the statistics? You make no conclusions without data, right? Show us the data!
Or is the truth that you guys are no more fact-based than anybody else?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 2:20 PM
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Again an attitude borne out of faith. 'Serving one's GOD'. Hinduism avoids this sort of direct incitement, but makes up for it with racism / caste
When people in power invoke GOD, then we may expect irrational decisions.
PAkistan and India have nuclear weapons because they are a muslim and hindu states - simple.
Posted by: Raman | January 9, 2007 2:02 PM
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Based on your repeated self-description, I assume you now will present us with clear and convincing empirical evidence supporting your assertion of a causal relationship between opinions on God-existence and nuclear proliferation.
---------------------------
Erm ... no.
---------------------------
Will you demonstrate conclusively that a secular Iran would eschew nukes, or show how it would define its strategic interests differently in any way?
---------------------------
Erm .... also no.
---------------------------
And will you produce the evidence to prove your provocative claim that "millenial dispensationlists" have "their finger on the US nuclear trigger"?
---------------------------
Erm ..... no again I'm afraid.
You rather missed the point of my post entirely.
If society is permated by people with a persistent sense of doom, and apocalyptic visions of the end, the odds are clearer higher that one of them may be in a position of power, and that they may mistake themselves for the hand of god and pull the trigger on his behalf.
In fact, there is some evidence that GWB already sees himself as doing the bidding of a "higher" father. I'm not sure what his position on the "end times" is, but I am disturbed by his obvious faith and proximity to the launch codes for thousands of nuclear weapons.
By reducing faith in such apocalyptic myths, generally, the overall risk is reduced. It's a statistical thing:-)
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 9, 2007 1:47 PM
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Anonymous
Nice, qualified, wishy-washy apology
(better than nothing though)
BUT
once again
it comes with
an affirmation of your
totally undemonstrated
superior intelligence,
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 1:36 PM
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I asked in good faith but followed up in bad faith. After a barely perceptible twinge of conscience — and after contemplating the manifold absurdities of this discussion for about a nanosecond and a half — I just lost it. Mea culpa.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 1:28 PM
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Bremer smuggled it across the border.
There are perks to being the big Poobah.
(by "there" I meant the region).
BTW, are you a man or a woman?
I'm bi, so it doesn't really matter much.
Also
my "Good Faith" comment in the last post referred to your suckering Brian with your uncharacteristically sweetly phrased question about whether he had theological training,
and when he responded
implying that he was a fool.
Bad Faith. Entrapment. You should be ashamed.
Shame on myself for not warning Brian: your guile was obvious from the start.
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 1:21 PM
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You know, all them "eye" countries sound alike: I-rakk, I-rann, I-rabia...
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 1:18 PM
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Whatever. But WHERE is Brian's supposed reasoning concerning God's existence? I missed it entirely (maybe it was just too subtle).
[P.S. Bremer...Iranian?? (I assume you're trying to work while carrying on this flirtation, so I understand the distraction.)]
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 1:14 PM
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To Mr. Anonymous
It buys us, first and foremost,
that
Contrary to your claims over and over again on this post,
1. You have NO knowledge from the academic discipline of Theology that casts doubt on Brian's reasoning concerning God's existence.
LOGICAL CONCLUSION: a human who had any shame would stop making statements like "do you know what you guys sound like, given that you don't have a doctorate in theology."
It also leads to the inescapable conclusion that your repeated claims to superior knowledge and reasoning have NO SUBSTANCE. They are, in fact, substance abuse.
2. It also buys us
Confirmation of the fact that
• you repeatedly avoid directly facing substantive questions.
• you repoetedly throw in Red Herrings to divert attention from your tortured "reasoning."
In short, it buys us the privilage of knowing that every comment you make is not to be trusted, most likely not made in good faith**, and primarlily meant to prop up your inflated view of your own wisdom.
It makes me feel better to have that conclusively demonstrated.
BTW, the beers tonight are going to be Iranian beer that Paul Bremer brought back from his stint there.
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 12:59 PM
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If it will advance the conversation, I am more than happy to stipulate as follows:
[a] James and Brian speak infallibly on all matters pertaining to God-existence.
[b] God-existence is wholly irrelevant to the validity of any and all assertions made by Anonymous.
What does that buy us?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 12:20 PM
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Did Brian (or any of you) engage in reasoning? Did I miss something? Dang! I would have loved to see that.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 12:12 PM
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Based on your repeated self-description, I assume you now will present us with clear and convincing empirical evidence supporting your assertion of a causal relationship between opinions on God-existence and nuclear proliferation.
Will you demonstrate conclusively that a secular Iran would eschew nukes, or show how it would define its strategic interests differently in any way?
Will you explain the God-existence connection behind India, Pakistan and DPRK going nuclear, and Libya and the former Iraqi regime trying to?
And will you produce the evidence to prove your provocative claim that "millenial dispensationlists" have "their finger on the US nuclear trigger"? [NB: Moonbat web sites do not constitute "evidence".]
Or do you cling desperately to such moonbat beliefs because they give you meaning, identity, a sense of belonging — and of superiority?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 12:08 PM
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The Anonymously Artful Dodger
Not only will anonymous not tell us his name,
he won't answer the most straightforward question.
How bout that for ground rules:
when asked a question, don't pretend you were asked a different question.
I didn't ask you whether it matters whether God exists (though Brian illustrated quite vividly why it does, and showed the poverty of your spiritual imagination - i.e. you can't imagine iraqi[s and iranians could be hurt by Bush's god-sanctioned war).
I asked you to demonstrate with ONE SPECIFIC POINT
where our lack of "theological knowledge" - an oxymoron if there ever was one - leads us to reason fallaciously regarding the existence of god and the effects of such belief.
You apparently can not. Do you know who Paul Tillich was?
So far, no comment that you have made illustrates that you have any special theological knowledge, let alone knowledge that casts doubt on Brian's reasoning.
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 12:04 PM
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Only fundamentalists and their opposite number (those with a compulsive need to identify as atheists) care whether or not God exists. So God does not exist. Big deal.
-----------------
There is some merit to your comment, but is not the whole story. Atheists have recently begun to care passionatley about the existence/non existence of god, because those with belief in god have become increasingly irrational and dangerous.
If the thought of millenial dispensationlists, waiting with bated breath to be raptured, all the while with their finger on the US nuclear trigger does not worry you, then I submit your survival instinct isn't working.
If you remain unmoved by the possibility of tens of thousands of Iranians being incinerated in a US first strike, because their theocratic politicians insist on building a nuclear weapon, then I submit your sense of empathy needs an overhaul.
The existence or non-existence of god is suddenly important (as opposed to simply a fascinating topic for discussion) because lives are at stake.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 9, 2007 11:00 AM
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May I respectfully propose the following policy for this forum.
Anyone demanding that another participant demonstrate the existence of a third entity shall first submit clear, convincing and unimpeachable proof of [a] the first party's own existence; and [b] existence of the second party (i.e., the participant of whom said demand is made).
If either the party of the first part or of the second part cannot be shown to exist, then such demand shall be deemed utterly null and void, inasmuch as any effort to fulfill it would be unproductive and a waste of valuable time in a (paradoxically) pointless universe.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 10:46 AM
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Only fundamentalists and their opposite number (those with a compulsive need to identify as atheists) care whether or not God exists. So God does not exist. Big deal.
God never claimed to exist. God says, "I am." God is being. If anything is, God is. If not, not. Whatever.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 10:31 AM
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Existence is overrated.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 9, 2007 10:18 AM
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Anonymous Theology
Waiting for Anonymous to give us
ONE EXAMPLE
of where our deficient theological lernin'
gets in the way of us having an opinion on
whether God, the big guy, exists.
It is like waiting for Godot, isn't it?
All we need is something like:
"Tillich said that the Courage to be is tantamount to...."
or
"St augustine's argument regarding angels dancing on the head of a pin was critiqued by Buber quite incisively."
But so far - a big NOTHING.
Nothing from Anonymous. Nothing from God.
No word from Godot.
Maybe tomorrow.
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 9:49 AM
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Dewey and Abstraction
Funny John, my daughter went to a down'the line dewey "progressive" school, and she turned out way above average in abstraction ability.
i run a very dewey-influenced adult ed center, and people here are making abstractions ALL the time.
im Massachusetts, it is the standardized test anti-progressive people who are eliminating abstract thinking.
Posted by: James | January 9, 2007 8:52 AM
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"Oh, well. I asked the 'brights' to define intelligence for me. No response."
Ayn Rand, who was always handy with a new definition, defined intelligence as the ability to deal with a wide range of abstractions.
I can't think of a better way to define it.
Unfortunately, ability to deal with any abstractions is getting mighty rare in this country, thanks to John Dewey and his "experiential education," which trains children that concretes are all.
Posted by: John Conolley | January 9, 2007 12:29 AM
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*Sigh* It was so much easier when they just said “the bible said it, I believe it period” instead of trying to translate that statement into pseudo intellectual babble (Tongues?).
Posted by: bd | January 8, 2007 8:03 PM
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Nooooooooo anonymous
the keg is On tap!
I told you, you are fun to play with.
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 5:29 PM
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Does this mean the beer is off?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 5:22 PM
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Brian
You ARE very patient to argue with Anonymous.
He is not to be taken seriously. He tells us that we are missing the wisdom of the great theologians because we haven't studied theology.
I have studied philosophy, religion, and history at two of the best colleges in the country,
and heard hundreds of speakers on philosophy and religion here in Cambridge, and interviewed Harvey Cox for a public program,
and I can tell you that anonymous
has NOT said one enlightening thing in this whole discussion.
His highest level theological contribution is
and I quote,
"God is Love."
Get real indeed.
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 4:35 PM
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And it wasn't the Holocaust, it wasn't slavery, it wasn't colonialism, it wasn't the French Revolution, it wasn't the Inquisition, it wasn't the Crusades, it wasn't Darwin, it wasn't Galileo, it wasn't Luther — no, friends, what caused Brother Brian to lose his faith was an unassuming ranch hand from Crawford, Texas!
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Lets not give him too much credit:-)
The Iraq war was the catalyst that caused me to question my faith, to start to dig into the foundations. All the items you list above were simply additonal black marks against the concept.
In the final analysis, I lost my faith because, faith cannot stand up to rational scrutiny.
And yes, theology is nonsense. I don't need to study fairies to reject their existence, or read every tome on UFO's to know with a high degree of certainty it's rubbish.
You want theology to be real, because it's the miasma of smoke and mirrors that allows the pan generational fraud of faith to persist. It seems frankly, a kind of security blanket for you. Sorry, I'm not buying:-( You are welcome to it though.
Did you look at the cargo cult link? They've got it all prayer, signs, wonders, messiah and an apocalypse. Religions sprung fully formed from the minds of humans in living memory .... and we should trust writings thousands of years old? Get real:-)
Good night all.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 4:18 PM
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I wonder if you guys have any idea what you sound like?
"We have lots of opinions on God or gods that we're only too eager to share — but we're self-taught, we don't even find the study of God a serious field of inquiry, and truth be told we don't have the first bleedin' idea what we're talking about! But man do we have opinions!"
You mock others' sincere beliefs, and then turn around and say you "believe" in things you know to exist!
And it wasn't the Holocaust, it wasn't slavery, it wasn't colonialism, it wasn't the French Revolution, it wasn't the Inquisition, it wasn't the Crusades, it wasn't Darwin, it wasn't Galileo, it wasn't Luther — no, friends, what caused Brother Brian to lose his faith was an unassuming ranch hand from Crawford, Texas!
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 3:50 PM
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To Raman and Gandhi and God
To your question:
I think the world woould be better off without God as an operational term. It is a useful metaphor, and the cultural history of the world and of humans requires that we keep understanding it in new ways hiistorically, politiically, and philosophically.
But using God for personal solace: I hope humanity grows out of that.
Gandhi IS obviously a fascinating man, and a fascinating persona. He clearly believed in SOMETHING.
One doesn't have to believe in God to have Faith and Hope. And one certainly does not have to believe in Jesus.
Hindu conceptions of God are much more multi-varied and complex than the Christian concept, no?
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 3:15 PM
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I am getting TIRED of agreeing with Brian. Brian, say something crazy!!!
Theology is a very dubious discipline. "Religion" as a department can study history, beliefs that exist, practices, etc: there is some empirical data.
I suppose you could say Theology is like Philosophy. I was a Philosophy major at a well respected college, and I say "barely."
Anonymous will say there are worse disciplines. Well, that is damning with faint praise, ain't it.
I am here in Cambridge, the intellectual capital of the world, and I must admit we do have a divinity school here at THE UNIVERSITY. But you have to remember that Harvard was founded in 1635, when everyone "studied theology", and tradition is very important at Harvard.
BTW\
anon - you ask "how can you believe in something that exists?
I think Raman answered you, but I chalk that up with some of your great comments like "God is Love."
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 3:08 PM
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Anonymous:
Brian, just curious (if you're willing to share) whether you (like most self-identified atheists on these forums it seems) are essentially self-educated on theological matters?
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Short answer yes.
Long answer, I just don't like the term theology, it's not a real subject, it is similar to alchemy or astrology, clear nonsense. How can you study something that has no informational content that can be verified?
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 2:54 PM
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Anyway, why do you have to "believe" in something that exists?
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I do not get the point. Quite literally, why should one believe in something that does not exist?
But then as i said - i did not get the point
Posted by: Raman | January 8, 2007 2:47 PM
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James:
Interesting that you brought it up James. Gandhi is an very interesting case. I am an Indian (but that does not make me an authority on Gandhi!).
He seems to have been a phenomenon. Even if we sift through the halo that invariably builds up around a persona such as he, i think he is quite astounding. And yes he had great faith. (Hindu - but i believe that is purely incidental)
I like your definition of spirituality. I suspect it may not be easy to achieve that though.
Just a little point - Do you think it is necessary to have even that little bit of GOD - as Gandhi had. Does it give us some sort of Solace?
I used to think Gandhi was a product of his times. India was turbulent then (as now!). But imagine Gandhi being born this day amidst all the present day evils like the situation in the middle east. I like to think he would have been an atheist!.
Still i would like to know what extra bit has the 'faith' in the 'infinite' would ultimately give us?
Posted by: Raman | January 8, 2007 2:43 PM
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"I do think we have to believe in the Universe, and in nature."
Sounds pretty dogmatic.
Anyway, why do you have to "believe" in something that exists?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 2:40 PM
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Spirituality and God
thanks Raman for the good questions. (i was stunned to see the "real anonymous" asking reasonable questions, so i am glad you cleared that up.)
I believe it is *reasonable* to posit a trait called "Spirituality." (see the current Harris post as well), including the elements I listed.
When I said
• A sense of relation to something greater than yourself (nature, the universe, God, gods)"
i CERTAINLY did not mean one HAD to believe in God.
I do think we have to believe in the Universe, and in nature.
I think some people have little or no sense or feeling for their relation to nature, for instance.
I would say those people could be more "spiritually developed."
I myself DO NOT believe in God, but like to think I am spiritual (of course: that is why i defined it this way, to make myself look good).
I agree with you about God, BTW. the only concept of god that makes sense to me is "the infinite, that which can not be put into words." but of course that makes no sense on a certain level. i don't believe in a supernatural entity or a creator of the world.
some people whom I know (of) who seem(ed) highly spiritual did also believe in God. martin luther king for instance. gandhi.
slight disagreement with you: i think i know some people who have faith but are not dogmatic. but i do agree that faith has a strong relation with dogma.
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 2:27 PM
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Sorry that was me
James:
• A sense of relation to something greater than yourself (nature, the universe, God, gods)
I have trouble with this one. No offense meant - but is it a trojan horse?
1) If you believe in God (in the sense of this sentence) how would you relate to him?
2) How does this god affect you / us?
3) If you are talking about the universe and not GOD, then the universe is open to analysis, whether we chose to do so or not.
I am afraid the definition of GOD often does not leave scope for analysis. If we accept that, then viola - we have the trojan horse - Faith.
After faith enters, dogma follows (for some people) and we are back to square one
Posted by: Raman | January 8, 2007 2:16 PM
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James:
• A sense of relation to something greater than yourself (nature, the universe, God, gods)
I have trouble with this one. No offense meant - but is it a trojan horse?
1) If you believe in God (in the sense of this sentence) how would you relate to him?
2) How does this god affect you / us?
3) If you are talking about the universe and not GOD, then the universe is open to analysis, whether we chose to do so or not.
I am afraid the definition of GOD often does not leave scope for analysis. If we accept that, then viola - we have the trojan horse - Faith.
After faith enters, dogma follows (for some people) and we are back to square one
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 2:14 PM
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Brian, just curious (if you're willing to share) whether you (like most self-identified atheists on these forums it seems) are essentially self-educated on theological matters?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 2:14 PM
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It does not require a religion or GOD to help us decide what is good or bad.
Otherwise, it would appear that people are good merely because they would miss out on heaven / burn in hell.
The presence of morals requires the human to have an encompassing view of things - a wide horizon.
Go ahead and teach your children religion without imposing FAITH (complete belief - no questions) on them. They will soon grow out of it - like Santa Claus. Regression towards normal - of the thinking mind.
Only when FAITH is imposed, the trouble starts.
At some point all of us are non-believers. We chose to ignore certain portions of our religious texts - out of necessity / propriety / impracticality. Try to adopt a take all - or leave all approach to the scriptures and see for yourselves.
Posted by: Raman | January 8, 2007 2:00 PM
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Brian, it sounds as if you’ve fallen into the belief-in-belief trap. I .e., someone who professes religiosity is ipso facto moral, good, or at least well-meaning.
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No not at all. I think faith and religions in general are BAD. Exposure to lots of them throws their contradictions, inconsistencies and incompatability into a very harsh and unflattering light. Most modestly intelligent people would come to the conclusion "a pox on all their houses". Which is what we are after I think, it also innoculates you against mutated strains of the virus.
Once you consider religion in general is nonsense, it's hard to buy into a different version.
There is are exceptions though. Heavily mutated strains of religion like, communisim, nationalisim and extreme capitalisim are the AIDS of religions. The sneak in past the immune system because they don't look like a religion, but they are and they are even more lethal.
Thinking for ourselves, rigourously questioning all authority and giving the state the frequent finger are the only way to keep yourself healthy:-)
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 1:15 PM
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Brian, I want to be respectful of your personal journey. So that we all can understand where you're coming from, I wonder if you could indicate the level of humor or irony intended in the above statement? Thank you.
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Utterly bone dry of humour. Bush claims to be a christian, and is directly responsible for the deaths of easily 100,000 completely innocent people, and may be indirectly responsible for the death of millions before this is over.
The questions :
How could a christian ...
How could god allow this in his name ...
and questions of a similar nature simply could not be ignored, and the responses to them are so trite and such terrible slop. My eventual conclusions were that all religions are nonsense, at their core. Although good people find meaning, and do good things on the periphery, frequently in spite of them. These same good people would do these things independent of their religions.
In fact of course, we see this exact thing, plenty of atheists are involved in red cross work, doctors without borders and the like.
People are intrinsically good to their own ingroup, but we have a genetic predisposition to attack those in the out group. Our in and out groups have become so large, and our predisposition to attack the out group is still so powerful, that we do the crazy things we do. War, religion and nationalisim are simply expressions of our hatred of the out group.
Hence a wonderful father and loving parent, can head off to gas jews without a qualm. If there is one evolutionary trait we need to rise above, it's our irrational hatred of out groups. If we don't, the religions may well get their armageddon:-(
Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult and think long and hard about the substance of your own faith.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 12:51 PM
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Brian, it sounds as if you’ve fallen into the belief-in-belief trap. I .e., someone who professes religiosity is ipso facto moral, good, or at least well-meaning.
Consider this conundrum: If a “casually religious” Muslim, for example, can be presumed to be “good,” shouldn’t the true believer (e.g. the one who hijacks and airplane and flies into a large building full of innocent people) be even better? Or put another way: Are the people who accept the teachings of their “moderate” theologians without carefully reading the book upon which those teaching are based better than those who take the book that says “Kill the infidel” literally?
Not wanting to (pray tell) single out any particular religion as fundamentally pernicious, I suggest you Google “The Skeptic’s Annotated Quran/Bible/Book of Mormon.” There are enough contradictions, conundrums and hateful passages to keep you busy trying to figure out the meaning of “doing the work of God” for quite some time.
Posted by: Richard E. | January 8, 2007 12:39 PM
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"Five years of GWB made me re-examine the whole superstructure of my faith very, very critically indeed."
Brian, I want to be respectful of your personal journey. So that we all can understand where you're coming from, I wonder if you could indicate the level of humor or irony intended in the above statement? Thank you.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 12:07 PM
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My point was that we because children and adults are exposed to this claptrap continuously, our efforts would be best spent refuting these ideas -- not exposing our children to still more of them.
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I actually advocate comparitive religion classes myself. My own experience has been, that as exposed to more and more varieties of christians, my faith was forced to become more tolerant.
Here were real people, serving god and loving their fellow man, nothwithstanding being catholics or 7th day adventists or lutherans or whatever.
Then I bumped up against some muslims who were pretty much the same, and then George Bush hove into view. Five years of GWB made me re-examine the whole superstructure of my faith very, very critically indeed. Then I took an intellectual wrecking ball it, reading everything I could on religion and rants against religion.
In particular the roots of christianity in pagan religions was a compelling argument against faith, and the existence of cargo cults. Look that up sometime, if there is a religious expression that highlights graphically how people will beleive anything, cargo cults are it.
So in summary I think exposure to lots of religions presented in context, as cultural myths, innoculates a child against the full blown illness.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 12:01 PM
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To James: I think we probably do agree.
To be a little less evangelical about this, if you listen and watch for them, you’ll see young children exposed to nonsensical concepts such as “God,” “prayer,” “heaven” and “sin” before their young minds are intellectually capable of recognizing this hogwash for what it is. (Hence the child abuse.) Further, when implanted this early, these ideas are difficult to expunge -- especially when the exposure continues through life.
My point was that we because children and adults are exposed to this claptrap continuously, our efforts would be best spent refuting these ideas -- not exposing our children to still more of them.
The latter course of action, in fact, encourages a kind of religious tolerance that cannot be justified in light of the demonstrable egregiousness of religious belief. (Oops! There I go waxing evangelical again.)
Posted by: Richard E. | January 8, 2007 11:27 AM
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Richard,
I think we agree and just have a miscommunication.
What I am advocating is that parents say to their children, at an age appropriate time:
lots of people in the world believe in one type of god or another.
we don't, but when you grow up you should make up your own mind.
further, god -belief is an important part of the world's cultural and political history, so it is good for all citizens in a democracy to understand the beliefs, history, and effects of religion and god-belief.
let me know if you have any questions.
I TOTALLY agree that Brainwashing into fundamentalism or religion of any kind IS a kind of child abuse.
james
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 10:51 AM
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Richard E.,
Am in receipt of your gracious declaration of war.
While it is extraordinarily thoughtful of you to include me, and I would love nothing more than to engage with you on the glorious field of battle, I'm afraid that previous commitments compel me to offer my sincerest regrets.
By all means kill a couple of Christers for me and impale their empty heads -- O Champion of Children! O Defender of the Peace! O Mighty Reason-Warrior!
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 10:27 AM
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James sez “Children as they are growing up should learn about belief/non-belief systems all over the world.”
People who have no business at all indoctrinating your children with religious nonsense will incrementally brainwash them with this tripe in ordinary day-to-day discourse with them, eventually instilling the notions that some of this stuff really exists: “Let’s pray that … ” “Thank God that …” “heaven … hell … sin.” etc. Since other people are already doing this to our children, there is no need for a parent to expose them to other belief systems -- except, perhaps, to show how murderously intolerant of each other the competing religious systems are.
The fact is, we are at war, and religion is the sworn enemy of reason, science, day-to-day morality among men, world peace and human dignity. Anything less than protecting your children from this relentless onslaught if irrationality and hatred is parental malpractice.
Posted by: Richard E. | January 8, 2007 10:14 AM
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Anonymous
What did you say?
It is my civic duty to make sure that people don't take you seriously.
Beer tonight?
James
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 9:47 AM
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James,
Our relationship seems to have become the central focus of your (meaningless) existence. I can't tell you how flattered I am, but at the same, with respect, it kind of gives me the willies.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 9:42 AM
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God (pardon the expression) Anonymous,
You are amazing.
And at the same time, so banal.
For someone as brilliant as yourself, you have very little imagination or creativity.
And for the 6,000th time, you state no position (other than hitching your star to meaninglessness) but ask what you clearly consider to be a brilliant question.
Anonymous, meaninglessness is you.
Once more as well, Brian gives us a very sane and humane and humor-full retort. You ARE patient, Brian.
Anonymous: don't read this next part. It will just cement your easy cynicism.
for the others on the post
here is ONE list of spiritual qualities that are probably good to have. Meaning IS tough. Anonymous would like us to hand it to him.
Mature adults need to, as Brian said, work it out for yourselves.
Brian and Raman, if you have any comments on this list i'd be interested. None of them necessitates a God or a Creator.
Elements of Spirituality
• A sense of the meaning of life (and death)
• A sense of relation to something greater than yourself (nature, the universe, God, gods)
• An inner moral sense of right action towards others and towards nature
• Sympathy for the lives, and suffering, of other living beings, (and for yourself!).
• A reverence for creation, both natural and human, and a nurturing of the creative imagination
• Comprehensive self-knowledge and understanding.
• A developed, cultivated and broad-based
appreciation of beauty (an understanding beyond your own prejudices and experience)
• Rich experiences outside the realm of the senses
(e.g. dreams, imagination)
• A sense of the “One-ness” of all things
Posted by: James | January 8, 2007 9:06 AM
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Yes, initially it is difficult to comprehend the insignificance of everything. Then as comprehension trickles in this becomes a glorious insignificance. The beauty is in the evanescent nature of life
Posted by: Raman | January 8, 2007 8:34 AM
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To restate: It is immoral to bring a child into the world if the probability of a purposeful universe is no greater than 50/50 — yes or no, and if no, why?
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Ah I see what you mean, to reword. Given that our existence is meaningless, isn't it wrong to bring children into a meaningless world?
It's a tough one, especially if you come from a lifetime of religious upbringing, that has driven deep ruts into your mind as regards how to think about these issues. This is not a snide aside at you Mr A., I'm talking about my own experience.
I can only reiterate that you need to find meaning in your own life. What you are going through, is getting a sense of proportion about where you fit in the wider universe, and it's not terribly flattering is it? A passing asteroid, supernova or blackhole could wipe out the entire human race, perhaps the planet and potentially the entire solar system. Makes a tsunami seem like a nasty paper cut.
I'd recommend you read Douglas Adams "Hitch Hikers guide to the galaxy" series, puts this entire question a humourous context. I mean what else can one do but get on with it, treat those you encounter with respect and have a laugh enroute?
Every one of us alive today is the end product of billions of forks in the road. I reckon we are pretty lucky to be here, and I'm happy to have flickered into existence at all, however briefly. I mean what were the odds?
Besides, an eternity with god doesn't sound terribly appealing, although the sources I'm baseing my opinion on are pretty flaky. Maybe it'll be amazing, we'll just have to wait and see:-)
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 7:28 AM
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Ha, more tap-dancing by the pseudo-atheists!
To restate: It is immoral to bring a child into the world if the probability of a purposeful universe is no greater than 50/50 — yes or no, and if no, why?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 8, 2007 6:05 AM
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just curious how you justify subjecting another human being to existence in a pointless universe?
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Take for example the myth of the Santa Claus. Tewll every child until he or she is 10 that Santa lives in iceland and visits every christmas. Then one day - pop - tell them there is no Santa
Just like that tell them there is GOD in the heavens. And one day what happens - You cannot show them proof? Then they will feel let down
Some studies have shown that some children take it very badly when told Santa does not exist.
The universe may be pointless or purposeful. We have no control over that. Better the truth than fantasy
Posted by: Raman | January 8, 2007 5:05 AM
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James, just curious how you justify subjecting another human being to existence in a pointless universe?
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What do you mean by justify? The world is as it is. I can't justify the state of the universe, I'm not responsible for it. How do religious people justify telling children things they cannot possibly be certain about, and presenting it as trancendent absolute truth?
Which is worse?
Telling children there may or may not be a god, that some people think there is and others think there isn't.
Or telling them there absolutely is a god, who will burn them in hell for eternity unless they do X,Y and Z?
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 8, 2007 12:46 AM
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Re Anonymous
Am beginning to feel this is getting nowhere. 'Devil' - Who?. Taunting gets us nowhere.
'Violence (verbal / otherwise) is the last resort of the incompetent
'Juvenile deity - What does that mean?'. Is there an adult deity then?
Posted by: Raman | January 7, 2007 11:23 PM
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Anonymous
As Martha said to her husband in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf,
"George, you're so f**king convoluted."
I am fairly good at logic, but your sentence above makes no sense in any logical universe I have ever inhabited.
Perhaps it is just that your unbelievably superior intelligence is over my head.
And I mean "unbelievably" literally.
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 11:12 PM
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James,
Are you trying to pick me up, you devil?
Anyway, it is you who are totally dependent upon a juvenile deity to sustain your precious unbelief.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 7, 2007 10:40 PM
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Anonymous
If I had to spend eternity in conversation with you, the universe would be pointless.
It takes an impoverished imagination, no human sympathy, no aesthetic capacity, and no ability to love (it's really hard to love a daughter)
for a person not to be able to find some points in living without the juvenile crutch of a made up deity.
Wanna have a beer later?
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 10:18 PM
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James, just curious how you justify subjecting another human being to existence in a pointless universe?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 7, 2007 9:17 PM
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Re Richard E and Raman
I am not sure exactly what Raman meant,
but I meant to say
that children as they are growing up should learn about belief/non-belief systems all over the world, not to convince them to adopt one, but so that they have an idea of the range of ways people have dealt with metaphysical and spiritual issues.
It's fine to tell your child you are an atheist.
It is probably not a good idea to indoctrinate them into atheism, or Mormonism, of Sufi-ism
(i am an atheist, btw. this is what we did with my 19 year old, who is a confirmed atheist - she may just have been imitating her parents, but she is an independent thinker).
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 8:24 PM
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When you engage in faith instead of reason, you’re abdicating the part of your intellect that separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. So “bright” is an intellectually appropriate term for atheists, and “dim” is a more accurate term for those who need an intellectual crutch to get through life.
Regarding how dims (“supers,” euphemistically) should be treated, the very practice of religious tolerance encourages them to enact their pathetic superstitions into law. If everyone were rational, there would be no theists -- and there would be no one calling himself an “atheist.” Therefore, atheism is a religious belief that is entitled to the same degree of respect as all the others.
So, every time a dim feels the need to shove his religious beliefs in my face (self-righteously expecting me to grin and bear his well-meaning nonsense, usually) I reply in kind with a reason why his beliefs are irrational, hypocritical, contradictory, destructive or whatever his utterance warrants -- in the hope he will realize that the best way to experience the feigning of “religious tolerance” by me is to keep his beliefs to himself.
That is “coming out of the closet.”
Oh, Raman. The above policy also applies to those who would foist their beliefs on your children. Superstitions taught at an early age are difficult to unlearn (or unteach). And, as Richard Dawkins noted, teaching children religion is the worst form of child abuse.
Posted by: Richard E. | January 7, 2007 7:26 PM
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Yes James
The best thing to tell children will be to respect all gods - That is for the time being till they grow up to decide for themselves..
And NEVER preach faith. Faith - accept whatever said as true. No questions. That is the root cause.
Instead teach them - to rationalize.
When they are adults they will have a healthy outlook to other religions (they will not say their GOD is the BEST GOD)
And they will NEVER do something blindly. That will prevent the development of people who fly aircraft into buildings. These fellas give up their present life for their GOD (definitely irrational).
The child's brain is like the computer. We put in the operating system. Better put in things like LINUX (Rationalism: Open source: Free thinkers) rather than Windows (Owned by GOD/ Theologians/ Blind Faith). Atleast rationalism will help them modify their behaviour as life unfolds.
One can, it seems, question anything on earth, but GOD. That's what faith teaches us. I wonder about the GOD who needs such protection from HIS OWN CHILDREN
Sorry for the long post though....
Posted by: Raman | January 7, 2007 2:03 PM
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The Mormon Apostate
Of my three siblings, one is still an active mormon and 2 aren't. My active brother is younger than I, so I can beat him up if he gives me trouble (actually, we are polite and respectful and don't talk about religion).
He is a "smart" Mormon, and my older sister argues with him a bit, so though he is still pretty orthodox, he knows how to moderate his rhetoric out there in the real world.
My sister, the first-born, went through a struggle with my parents when she apostasized. By the time they got to me, the third (and a boy) they were tired of arguing. Plus I was far from a juvenile delinguent.
My Mormon uncle in Utah just sent us a family history about our Danish ancestor converts who came to New York in 1867 and then took the wagon train to the Promised Land.
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 1:55 PM
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Yes, my Mormon heritage goes all the way back: my great grandfather was in the Jail with joseph smith when Smith was killed.
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Wow!!! Do you still have any contact with your family? How do they feel about your views on god?
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 7, 2007 1:42 PM
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Raman
Very nicely put.
The moral thing to do with children
is NOT to indoctrinate them into any fundamentalism
but rather
to teach them that there are people all over the world who believe in many different gods, or no god (e.g. Buddhists)
and all these people are about equally moral.
Further, it is an element of richness in human life to learn about what all the other humans are doing, and
It is a spur to genocide,war and ignorance to believe that only belief in Daddy's god will get you into heaven and help you avoid going to hell where all the non believers will be.
You also accurately point out the vacuity of Anonymous's position of God is Love/Energy/House Plants.
I suppose that "moderate" position is better than saying
God is the Guy who tells me I am supposed to kill you because you don't believe in HIM.
But it adds nothing, as you say, to the realization that all mammals are moral.
Most apes obey the 10 commandments about as well as most humans, for instance.
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 1:18 PM
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Ex Mormons and Fundy's
Yes, my Mormon heritage goes all the way back: my great grandfather was in the Jail with joseph smith when Smith was killed.
As a 19 year old college freshman, I had to decide if I was going to become a Missionary, as all good 19 year old boys are supposed to do, so they don't get hooked on sex and drugs and rock and roll.
I looked at my Secular Jewish room mate, who was much more moral, evolved, senitive, concerned with the world's injustice problems, than I or 99.9% of the Mormons I knew,
and I said to myself:
You mean, I am supposed to tell people like this that unless they convert to Mormonism, they lose their chance to go to the best heaven (mormons call it the Celestial Kingdom), where all of those uniformed, blindly obedient, cult-like regular Mormons are going to be,
and I said, if this is the kind of God and the kind of universe and the kind of reward system that the Church believes in,
I can't sell it to the general public.
So I became a snake oil salesman instead.
Now I am addicted to Bach, reasonably decent wine, and trying to get social justice for my Gay friends. (I am 59, have a daughter at Juilliard and have been a good citizen and out of jail for 40 years post-mormon. I run a major adult ed center.
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 12:55 PM
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Theists, whenever consecutively questioned, end up in blank dead-ends such as love. Why can't we say goodness? In other words they mean - God = morality.
Spare a thought to the countless other people with totally different gods in china and India who are nevertheless moral.
Different gods same morality. Are we missing something here?
The only common factor is we are humans and mammals. We care for our and love our young and as an extension our family and fellow human beings
God does not equate to love. You can have enough of love without invoking god.
After all those books, bible, Koran whatever the Incas had etc... we end up with God = Love. Then why write such voluminous books and build up such rituals.
Posted by: Raman | January 7, 2007 12:46 PM
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2. There is some literary/historical/cultural merit in the Bible etc (let me tell you as an ex Mormon, there is NONE in the Book of Mormon).
-------------------
An ex-mormon eh James? Wow you got the real thing. Ex fundy, charismatic myself:-)
How long have you been off the myth?
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 7, 2007 12:39 PM
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To Brian
I truly sympathize with you in your effort to get Anonymous to take a position: as I said before, ANY position.
We now get two brave assertions from our brilliant Mr Anonymous.
1. God is Love
2. There is some literary/historical/cultural merit in the Bible etc (let me tell you as an ex Mormon, there is NONE in the Book of Mormon).
Regarding 1:
A is Almost right.
Actually
God is a House Plant in a Ranch House in Maplewood New Jersey.
Now totally seriously, I am quite sure that Love exists. As the pablum pop song says
"I believe in love."
With all due respect,
to say "God is Love" and leave it at that
says absolutely nothing.
Probably worse than nothing
because it confuses any substantive discussion.
After we stipulate Love, what does "God" add?
2. It is an unbelievably obvious statement that the Bible is a very important document in our literary/historical/cultural tradition.
The Book of Ecclesiastes (sp?) is brilliant. The creaton story is embedded in everyone's mind, etc.
But WHAT does that tell us, beyond the obvious.
We all agree I guess: we should read the Bible the same way we read other mythologies/faux histories with literary psychological merit.
we have all known that for Centuries.
Brian's arguments go against what most westerners have believed for centuries.
Anonymous's truisms do what truisms always do.
Posted by: James | January 7, 2007 11:25 AM
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God and love are two names Christians use for one and the same reality. (Did you miss that part?)
---------------
Yes I've certainly come across it, and it's clever rethoric, but it doesn't really get us anywhere.
You still MUST explain how you came upon this information, I have had many of these conversations, and thought long and hard about the subject myself. Yet I have yet to hear a compelling case made. By all means surprise me.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 7, 2007 5:53 AM
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You say, "Do you know what 'bulk' means?"
As between the baby and the bath water, I'd say the baby is the bulk, which you say to throw out, but then say not to. Write back when you decide.
------------------
It's an indication of your desperation if you have begun to latch onto the semantics in my metaphores:-)
As it happens I think the metaphorical bath in this case IS a swimming pool. In the bible, the koran and the book of mormon, the "water" outweighs the "baby" by orders of magnitude. Still there is some good stuff in there, and it's fascinating cultural literature in it's correct context.
However, if we accept a book of Bronze Age myths as a guide to morality, then we are required to kill unbelievers, apostates, witches, cheeky children, and Sunday labourers. As all such cases cause unjustified suffering, however, they are in fact the most immoral of acts. Consequently, we can see that our own moral intuitions are a much better a guide to morality than any authority.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 7, 2007 5:47 AM
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1) Love
2) Don't. Gotta better one?
---------------------------
No I absolutely do not. I fully concede we cannot be certain if a god exists or not, but you also concede that neither can you. Lets start from that point.
Were we differ substantially is on probability. Even if we take as given that the existence of a god, creator of the universe, but otherwise completely undefined, is 50/50, the real problems arise when you begin to layer on detail.
For example, your contention that god is love. I submit that the natural world (disease, death, random natural catastrophe), and how humans occasionally treat each other mitigates very strongly against this probability. Now there are "arguments" to explain why this is so in the context of a loving god, but they are contrived and convoluted and require far more explanation than the obvious "sh1t happens" of the materialist.
Each new attribute or property you ascribe to god, drops the probability that much lower that this specific construct exists.
Hence I keep on trying to get you supply specifics and argue why you think such and such is so, and you keep retreating to vauge, wispy constructs that frankly, the average "Ted Haggard Class" evangelical christian, or typical muslim would find heretical and suspiciously "new age". Only a few hundred years ago, both groups would have insisted on your execution for holding such poorly defined views of god.
Finally, my inability to define god is not MY problem, I've got almost nothing to work with. This is the theists problem, and it is a doozy.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 7, 2007 5:38 AM
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You say, "Do you know what 'bulk' means?"
As between the baby and the bath water, I'd say the baby is the bulk, which you say to throw out, but then say not to. Write back when you decide.
You say, "OK, a thread to pull on....etc."
God and love are two names Christians use for one and the same reality. (Did you miss that part?) Please feel free to substitute whatever names make you happy.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 7, 2007 5:14 AM
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1) Love
2) Don't. Gotta better one?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 7, 2007 4:57 AM
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You say, "In fact much of what is in the holy books is so obscenely wrong, we'd be wise to ditch the bulk of them ASAP."
But you JUST SAID, "we don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water do we? We can keep the love, and ditch the xenophobia."
----------------
Do you know what "bulk" means? Look it up, you'll see why your response is silly.
----------------
Ding ding ding!! Congratulations! That's 100% Grade A traditional Catholic moral theology. It's called natural law.
----------------
Gee. You are surprised? Even catholic theologians are humans, they can observe the universe and come up with an explanation. Their's has the disadvantage of being nonsense of course, but still, kudos for observing the blindingly obvious and ascribing it to god:-)
----------------
You say, "Certainly their love and existence is orders of magnitude more tangible than that of the big 3 monotheistic gods." Except that God is love, and who abides in love, abides in God. Love does not exist apart from God, because God and love are two names for one and the same reality. The manifestations of love you describe have no reality apart from God.
-----------------
OK, a thread to pull on. How can you possibly know this about god? Did god speak to you? Did god speak to a friend of yours? Did god speak to a long dead person, who passed the information on to some other long dead individual who wrote it in a book?
How do you know god wasn't lying, or the myriad of intermediate messangers weren't lying, or even making the whole thing up?
So two important questions here.
1) Define the god you refer to.
2) How do you know the properties you have just defined.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 7, 2007 2:40 AM
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Dear Anonymous
Good. Glad your are staying around. I am getting to like you. You are fun to play with.
Posted by: James | January 6, 2007 11:57 PM
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James,
You say I "don't believe anything yourself that you will state an affirmative position on." What? Have you already forgotten that, in response to Brian's challenge about the Holy Spirit, I quoted the Nicene Creed to affirm my belief?
You say I "set yourself up as smarter and wiser than the rest of us." If I'm smarter and wiser, blame it on God.
P.S. Sorry, but you don't get to disinvite me.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 6, 2007 7:40 PM
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Brian,
You say, "Why bring sky fairies into it? Why is this so hard for you to get?"
But of course it is you who has the fixation with sky fairies and keep dragging them in. (Why?) "This" is hard for me to "get" because you won't answer the question.
You say, "Our morality is rooted in our evolutionary history. This is a testable explanation which fits the facts and is observable in other species. We don't need holy books or 'revelation' to tell us what is right, or what makes stable and healthy human societies, it's in our genes."
Ding ding ding!! Congratulations! That's 100% Grade A traditional Catholic moral theology. It's called natural law.
You say, "In fact much of what is in the holy books is so obscenely wrong, we'd be wise to ditch the bulk of them ASAP."
But you JUST SAID, "we don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water do we? We can keep the love, and ditch the xenophobia."
You say, "Certainly their love and existence is orders of magnitude more tangible than that of the big 3 monotheistic gods." Except that God is love, and who abides in love, abides in God. Love does not exist apart from God, because God and love are two names for one and the same reality. The manifestations of love you describe have no reality apart from God.
You flatter yourself if you think I find your non-answers traumatic. I have no idea if God, man or the universe exist. But I do know these are the only questions that matter, and I am unwilling to sleepwalk -- or to anesthetize myself by smirking at the great unwashed and their sky fairies.
Now tell me I'm very, very bad.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 6, 2007 7:39 PM
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Anonymous: Give it a Rest Indeed
Your convoluted and distored reasoning just pollutes the conversation.
you don't believe anything yourself that you will state an affirmative position on.
You set yourself up as smarter and wiser than the rest of us and go on to disprove that proposition with everyword, even "and" and "the."
As Brian correctly states, you studiously avoid describing your God, or anything that you believe in.
And your nihilism is much more depressing and inhuman than that which you ascribe to Brian and others.
Posted by: James | January 6, 2007 6:48 PM
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You say, "You need to find meaning in your OWN life Mr. A." I must? Why? How rational is it to find purpose and value in my puny existence if I am certain the vast universe has none?
----------------
I seem to have really hit a nerve here. I can find value in me, the people around me, my life. What I enjoy, the challenges life presents. Why does it have to be connected to something "transcendent"? Isn't the awesome fact of your existence enough? Our existence may be puny, but we can still enjoy it can't we? Why bring sky fairies into it? Why is this so hard for you to get?
---------------------
Dr. Dawkins acknowledges that humans have the capacity to thwart natural selection. You have choice and freedom of action.
-----------------
Yeeeeeesss, and your point is what? We thwart our genes on a daily basis, but we don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water do we? We can keep the love, and ditch the xenophobia. We can have sex, yet keep family sizes down. We can eat, but steer clear of fatty foods. We can submit to our empathy to help people in need, and amplify it to extend that "local" impulse to include the entire human family.
The sheer scale and complexity of human society is testimony to our ability to thwart our genes. No argument there. Hey, you asked a specific question, don't ask if you can't handle answers that address the actual question.
Our morality is rooted in our evolutionary history. This is a testable explanation which fits the facts and is observable in other species. We don't need holy books or "revelation" to tell us what is right, or what makes stable and healthy human societies, it's in our genes. In fact much of what is in the holy books is so obscenely wrong, we'd be wise to ditch the bulk of them ASAP.
In a nutshell, it is as the Buddha said, do unto others, as you would have them do unto you:-)
---------------------------
What actual evidence or rational basis do you have for believing anyone loves you? What evidence do you have that those you love exist?
-----------------------------
They are good to me? They miss me when I'm away (or so they say), they appear glad to see me when I'm back. They send me gifts, they phone me. As to if the exist, well I can see them, touch them, hug them, hear them.
Certainly their love, and existence is orders of magnitude more tangible than that of the big 3 monotheistic gods. You seem to be talking yourself out of your faith Mr. A., am I getting through?
You go off on these wild philosophical tangents, when really all most atheists are looking for is simple. Conclusive proof that god, really any god, exists. If you can provide that I'm yours, no REALLY, I mean that.
Yet, religites cannot even meet this minimal hurdle and then get all hot and bothered when we object to this nonsense being trotted out as truth, with layers of detail no less!!! God is all loving, ooooh god is all powerful, ooooh god is actually three persons in one. ROTFL:-)
Give it a rest:-) You can blow all the philosophical smoke you like, yet your god (which you have studiously avoided describing) is almost certainly a pan generational fraud like every other god before it. I'm genuinely sorry that this is so traumatic for you.
Posted by: brian coughlan | January 6, 2007 5:34 PM
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Brian,
Thanks for proving the point splendidly. You require God to be a sky fairy, because a mature understanding of God threatens your identity.
You say, "You need to find meaning in your OWN life Mr. A." I must? Why? How rational is it to find purpose and value in my puny existence if I am certain the vast universe has none?
In any case, if I am certain my puny existence is finite, what conceivable rational basis is there for perpetuating it? There is none. Zip. Nada. You know that every excuse you could come up with is nothing but a desperate rationalization, so you convince yourself the alternative is a "sky fairy" (how precious). Put up or shut up. There is no purely rational basis for delay. Either get it over with, or acknowledge there is some intrinsic or transcendent reason you don't.
Your appeal to evolutionary imperatives is particularly hilarious. Even your own personal sky fairy Dr. Dawkins acknowledges that humans have the capacity to thwart natural selection. You have choice and freedom of action (and if you don't, why have this conversation?).
What actual evidence or rational basis do you have for believing anyone loves you? What evidence do you have that those you love exist?
You say, "Life just IS." Duh. Pass the bong, man.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 6, 2007 4:40 PM
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Thank you, Brian, for the link to the Dawkins site. It is awesome to find out how many freethinkers we are.
Posted by: Tammy Irwin | January 6, 2007 3:41 PM
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"...our own feelings about injustice..."
You acknowledge a universal understanding of justice and universal "feelings" about it. The source of that understanding and those feelings is what, exactly?
Pure evolution baby. Cats, Dogs and practically all mammals exhibit crude but identifiable forms of love, self sacrifice and altruisim. It's a survival trait which we share with them.
You need to find meaning in your OWN life Mr. A. In those you love, and those who love you. In what you enjoy, in your work and in your play. Life just IS. You don't need some invisible sky fairy to define you.
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 6, 2007 3:38 PM
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Brian,
"...our own feelings about injustice..."
You acknowledge a universal understanding of justice and universal "feelings" about it. The source of that understanding and those feelings is what, exactly?
"...a supernatural construct remotely like any of the big 3 gods..."
Atheists are so insecure that they insist on a God that allows them to retain their non-believing purity.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 6, 2007 2:40 PM
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Hey James, appreciate the vote of confidence:-)
You should join the rest of the atheists here :
http://richarddawkins.net/home
You religites are welcome too:-)
The worm is turning:-)
Ciao.
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 6, 2007 11:51 AM
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Observation: Re Gordon and Brian
I appreciate Gordon's attempt to cast light on these issues, and you said some smart things, G. But I found my mind having to do all sorts of twists and turns to follow your reasoning: proving negatives and then turning them back on their heads etc. It did remind me of the tortured arguments that Catholic theologians have about Limbo and angels.
Brian's comment on your post was like a breath of fresh air.
The logic was direct, impeccable, and understandable even by me (I must do one little brag and admit that I got an A in logic).
The major resonating point that Brian made, though certainly not a new one, is
"A casual glance at the world and our own feelings about injustice explodes the idea of the monotheistic gods."
While trying to be respectful to fundamentalists, Dawkins' argument combined with Brian's is really unrefutable by a reasonable, logical, evidence based mind.
Posted by: James | January 6, 2007 9:46 AM
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Gordon : Regarding your rebuttals.
1:The default position is certainly to be agnostic about something unproven. At best that puts all the major supernatural constructs on par with fairies or UFO's. Hardly a compelling conversion story:-)
2:We can only reason from what we know. A casual glance at the world and our own feelings about injustice explodes the idea of the monotheistic gods. You are left pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and claiming that "we don't understand God". Yeah, no kidding. By your reasoning absolutely anything could exist, including a completely evil god who tolerates good for "mysterious reasons". It is by far the most facile response to this compelling argument I have yet heard.
Evil and good exist, these words have meanings. There occurrence appears totally random, and the most reasonable conclusion is that this is so.
3:See above
4:You dismiss this argument to easily. If I stand on a shore throwing rocks into the water, the more rocks I throw the more convinced I am that each next rock will sink, just all the rocks before. Each discovery by science is like a thrown rock, the next one MIGHT reveal god hiding behind it, but the likelihood is that the explanation will be natural just like all the millions of others.
You are like a guy standing beside the thrower shouting "OK, that rock sank, but God will make the next one float!!!". Guess what, God is running out of rocks to hide behind.
I should also note that several millenia of pondering the nature of god have revealed exactly nothing. While a mere 300 years of science has explained vast amounts, and in enormous detail. I know where my money is:-)
Anonymous, your comments are philosphical and have little to do with my major objection, that complelling evidence for a supernatural construct remotely like any of the big 3 gods is present. If you'd care to discuss that sure, otherwise I'm pretty much in agreement with your other points.
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 6, 2007 1:55 AM
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If you go to the main page of the On Faith discussion you will find an interesting tabulation of the religious affiliations of the representatives in Congress.
Those with no religious affiliation number 6 in the house and none in the senate. This represents 1.1% of congress as opposed to 14.1% in the population as a whole.
So it would seem that atheists, agnostics and pantheists are very poorly represented in Congress.
Posted by: Ted Swart | January 6, 2007 1:43 AM
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Jim -
Martooni already made it clear that your four "arguments" aren't worth the time to examine, but you seem to have missed his point.
For those that might think you have actually said something, let me take apart each of them:
= 1. The neutral position is to not believe
= in the existence of a thing. It is incumbent
= on the person proposing the existence of
= something to give the argument.
= No successful argument is given,
= thus God does not exist.
Perhaps the reason Martooni stopped before he started: The neutral position is to make no belief conclusions. To believe that a thing does not exist is *not* neutral. This type of shallow thinking pervades the rest of your four "arguments".
Ignoring that first bit of idiocy: If a god exists, that does not logically require that anyone be able to prove it. If no successful argument can be given, then those proposing the existence of a god have no valid basis to expect you to agree with them. But it takes a pretty dim person to think that this proves their god does not exist, much less that no god exists.
I doubt anyone can prove that Hippocrates actually lived and wrote the Hippocratic Oath. But at best that leaves us "agnostic" about whether he lived. It does not prove he never existed. Similar statements can be made about many others on the fringes of recorded history.
= 2. The problem of evil shows that one
= popular view of god (all powerful and
= good) can not exist (incompatible with
= evil).
This follows *only* if a divinity that is both good and all-powerful agrees with your assessment that evil should not be allowed. Perhaps our understanding of good is different from the good nature of that divinity. Having made every effort to be a good parent, I occassionally thought it good to allow my child to experience the pain of poor choices. Others may judge this was "not good". My point is that "good" is too squishy a term to hold the weight this argument places on it.
= 3. Alleged objects with contradictory
= descriptions do not exist. Examples
= include the 4 sided triangle. God's
= alleged nature is contradictory,
= therefore he doesn't exist.
No.
EITHER this is a restatement of the #2, in which the only valid conclusion here would be that the claim of both good and all-powerful is false (except that this is not contradictory in the sense of a 4-sided triangle).
OR you are making a totally unsubstantiated statement that all generic descriptions of a Transcendent Creator are contradictory. If this is the case, you left out the key part of the argument.
At best it appears that this argument could be used to prove that specific claims about a god are false, but it proves nothing about a general claim that a god exists.
= 4. All of the historic roles of god are
= now better explained in other ways
= (thunder for example is explained in
= meteorology). The god-concept is
= useless, thus by Occham's razor, god
= does not exist.
First: Occham's razor never proves the correctness of any idea. It only makes an assumption about which idea is likely to be the most useful for further investigation.
Second: This argument starts with a huge unexamined assumption that "all of the historic roles of god are now better explained in other ways". Certainly there are alternate explanations for many things, and these are more comfortable to those who prefer to believe there is no God. But issues like the origin of morals and ethics are not "better explained" by anything else yet. Nor is it yet apparent that the 20th-century creation myth of abiogenesis is any better than the ancient creation myths.
= I'm not claiming these are good arguments,
= but you don't even examine them.
I am mildly pleased that you were bright enough to avoid claiming these were good arguments. That you thought they were worth posting still seems pretty dim.
- GordonB
Posted by: GordonB | January 5, 2007 11:33 PM
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How can a rational intelligent person simultaneously believe that the universe has no purpose or value yet his own puny existence does?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 5, 2007 10:53 PM
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Dear atheist friends, do you believe you exist, and if so, on the basis of what evidence?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 5, 2007 10:50 PM
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one must begin with the knowledge that the entire body of religion is based on nothing more than assumptions and, as we know only too well, many assumptions have been proved wrong.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 5, 2007 2:42 PM
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Anonymous, My Savior!!
thank you for relieving my torture.
We finally have a position from you, rather than just your vaunted hole-poking.
Here are two of your positions, and I quote:
Postion 1. "Okay. Here's my position: I haven't the slightest idea, and I'm trying to come up with a reason I should care."
Well, that's clear. Cynicism and apathy are two time honored strong positions.
Your second big one: "here's my real position: No intelligent person sleepwalks through life without agonizing over the fact of his existence."
So, 'Life is hard." That is what you have to add. I am glad I waited.
and finally, you give us this pearl:
"Any living intelligent person who is certain that he does not have a soul is lying."
And any intelligent person who is certain that Unicorns and Tooth Fairys don't exist is also lying.
You finally confirm what has been obvious from the beginning.
You have no interest (ability?) in contributing substantively to this conversation.
All you are interested in is showing how smart and wise you are compared to the rest of us.
You get an F. for Failure.
1.
Posted by: James | January 5, 2007 10:39 AM
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Anyway, what's your deal with the Holy Spirit?
I find that many religious people are like republicans, disingenous liars. However, they hesitate to cross this particular threshold given there is a specific verse in the Bible, that strongly suggests you will be damned for eternity if you deny the holy spirit.
You have to laugh at the level of detail about the nature of god the bible claims to know about. I mean HOW? Different question, I digress:-)
If a poster is too superstitious to cross the line, all their talk of open mindedness should be considered so much disingenous bull crap:-) So whats it to be?
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 5, 2007 3:13 AM
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Now Brian, you know that earlier post was a private communication between the two of us...
Anyway, what's your deal with the Holy Spirit?
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem: qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per Prophetas.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 5, 2007 1:52 AM
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No, wait, here's my real position: No intelligent person sleepwalks through life without agonizing over the fact of his existence. No intelligent person assumes he needs advanced degrees to be a physicist or a brain surgeon, but when it comes to the most important questions, everything he needs to know he learned in kindergarten. No intelligent person clings to childish notions of God just so he can reject them. Any living intelligent person who is certain that he does not have a soul is lying.
--------------------------------
Gee, not much to argue with there, except that the "childish notions of God" are the majority prevailing view. The wispy ephemeral constructs of the theologians (the study of God!!! No data, no tests, no results, could there be a dumber subject??), although equally bogus, are accepted by only a tiny minority of the rabidly and dangerously religious.
However, I thought THIS was your real position :
Anonymous:
Brian, I am proud as punch to be a dogmatic, sexist, genocidal neo-Nazi, homophobic bigot and a fundie thumper Christer Jesusland Taliban Christofascist. Please call me more names, because I deserve it. I am very, very naughty. Tell me how naughty I am, Brian! Tell me!! Get very, very, very angry with me! Only you can stop me from spreading my pernicious and posionous stuff! Only you can put an end to my arrogance and hubris! Let the hate flow! Let me have it! Talk trash about President Bush! Please! Brian!
-----------------------
Or was that just nonsense?
Deny the holy spirit already so we know where we stand, or are yah scared? Are yah a big fraidy cat of the nasty ghost in the sky?:-)
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 5, 2007 1:38 AM
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My poor tortured brother James says:
"Make a claim. State a position.
for instance, there is (or is not -
ANYThING!) a relation between intelligence and belief."
Okay. Here's my position: I haven't the slightest idea, and I'm trying to come up with a reason I should care.
No, wait, here's my position: It depends on what you mean by relation, what you mean by intelligence, and what you mean by belief.
No, wait, here's my real position: No intelligent person sleepwalks through life without agonizing over the fact of his existence. No intelligent person assumes he needs advanced degrees to be a physicist or a brain surgeon, but when it comes to the most important questions, everything he needs to know he learned in kindergarten. No intelligent person clings to childish notions of God just so he can reject them. Any living intelligent person who is certain that he does not have a soul is lying.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 5, 2007 1:07 AM
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I cannot imagine more important questions.
---------------------------------
Frankly, neither can I, but theology is obviously not the route to answer those questions. Isn't one of the definitions of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?
Mr A. Theology is to Philosophy what Astrology is to Astronomy, or Alchemy to Chemistry. It's the nonsense dreamed up when humans had little idea about how the world worked, how things fit together. Why keep flogging a patently dead horse?
I notice you don't address the key question, what has millenia of theology revealed about the universe? It would be cool to hear your views on that.
-----------------------------------------
I love the so-called "brights" who insist they find nature and the universe endlessly fascinating, yet are absolutely incurious about how they got here and indifferent to where they're going.
------------------------------------------
On the contrary, I personally am intriuged, but that surely doesn't mean I have to give credence, or even respect to every crackpot theory trotted out by religites?
Here is another quick one. If you are genuinely not religious, and are merely "poking holes" in the pure and honest spirit of enquiry, lets hear a denial of the holy ghost. That generally flushes the superstitious out the woodwork:-)
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 5, 2007 12:54 AM
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Brian,
"Theology is a non subject, the stale recycling of ideas that are millenia old, the assertion of details that can never be confirmed or disputed."
Many thanks for illustrating my earlier point and giving me the opportunity to reiterate it: An opinion without benefit of education is merely an uneducated opinion.
"So why waste our time?"
Waste of time? I cannot imagine more important questions. I love the so-called "brights" who insist they find nature and the universe endlessly fascinating, yet are absolutely incurious about how they got here and indifferent to where they're going.
"I am also a big fan of education where the subject has ... you know .... facts."
So it's not just theology, but you also oppose all of the arts, literature and poetry (and for that matter math, computer science etc.)?
You say that I, Anonymous, "object to challenging these assertions"? Where on earth is your evidence for that, evidence guy? Poking holes ain't censorship.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 5, 2007 12:19 AM
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Mr Anonymous and Brian
Once more, Brian gives us some substance.
Anonymous gives us BS.
Not a word of substance in it.
Mr A (how evocative the initial)
you say this is the first time you trumpet your superiority.
It has been drippingly obvious that you so regard yourself in every empty post you have written.
But you have given none of the rest of us a reason to so regard you.
This post, like all your others, does nothing to rebut the arguments of Brian or myself.
And where is the substantive point in either of your last two points. "Anonymous is educated and you're not" is, characteristically, just blather, not substance.
Make a claim. State a position.
for instance, there is (or is not -
ANYThING!) a relation between intelligence and belief. Anything of substance that can be agreed with or disagreed with, other than your unevident intelligence and erudition.
Posted by: James | January 4, 2007 11:39 PM
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James, my dear confused brother, when — out of the most charitable motives — one helpfully attempts to point out what one judges — correctly or not — to be faulty reasoning, only the most insecure wretch would leap up repeatedly to accuse that person of putting on airs.
Now, I do indeed feel that you need to worship my superiority and erudition — BUT that is the first time you have heard me say so in this discussion. Like somebody said above, stop deliberately misrepresenting my words.
As for my supposed misrepresentation, I drew an inexact yet extremely effective analogy. So revoke my rhetorical license. And by all means please do wake me up the moment any of you manages to contribute a substantive point.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 4, 2007 11:19 PM
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You say, "Of course when it comes to the question does God exist, we are all amateurs." Actually, thousands of brilliant professional philosophers and theologians have employed their reason, intellects, and all the available evidence to ponder and debate the nature of God for a very long time.
---------------------
Such an excellent point. Humans have pondered "God" for millenia. Tell me, what have we learned?
Do we know what he wants?
Do we know if he cares?
Do we know what he's like?
OK, a basic one. Do we even know if he exists?
Your comment below covers it off nicely:-)
---------------------------------------
Look, I have no idea what God would be if it existed, or what it would have to be in order to exist, or whether it may have existed, or may yet exist.
--------------------------------------
Not a terribly productive line of enquiry then:-) Compare the results of scientific enquiry garnered in only the last 300 years. Wow ... religion gets it ass kicked as regards explanations about the universe. Huh.
Mr. A. (may I call you Mr. A.?) Theology is a non subject, the stale recycling of ideas that are millenia old, the assertion of details that can never be confirmed or disputed. So why waste our time? Philosophy is another subject all together, and certainly far more interesting, but I don't object to that. I am also a big fan of education where the subject has ... you know .... facts.
You say you don't know what God is, or even IF God is, either. Great we are in agreement on that point. However, I object to the bald unsupported assertion that a supernatural construct exists, with layers of detail and specifics. All Loving, All powerful, died for our sins, one yet three etc. You seem not to have a problem with that, and even to object to challenging these assertions.
Given your comments, that seems something of a contradiction, why protect what you can patently see is untrue?
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 4, 2007 11:17 PM
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Anonymous has No Name
and No Substance
YET again
For the um-teenth time
Anonymous has skirted any substantive issues
that have been raised
(like how he fudge my argument on
the correlation of intelligence and belief
to make it seem like I was making a correlation
between intelligence and
God's existence)
and instead is spending all of his (and our) time trying vainly to be clever by derogating Brian's intelligence.
I for many have gotten infinitely more substance out of Brian's thoughts than I have out of
Anonymous's
Add Hominium (oh Mr A, is it spelled ad hominem?)
squibblings.
How bout really addressing the point I made to you above about how you deliberately misrepresented the argument about intelligence and belief.
Or maybe you weren't intelligent enough to understand the distinction.
Sorry to be so frank, but Brian is actually trying to make substantive points, and doing so much more effectively than you,
while you are just trying to demonstrate how superior and better educated you are than the rest of us. Not doing too good a job either.
Posted by: James | January 4, 2007 10:31 PM
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Of course I acknowledge that Dennett is a philosopher, but I refer to the majority of "bright" posters on this thread.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 4, 2007 10:13 PM
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Brian,
Greetings. I wonder if you may have heard of an area of human endeavor called education. (I'm trying very hard to act naughty 'cause I know you like it.)
Somebody warned me about people like you (and James) who think education is vastly overrated and an atrocious time-waster.
You say, "It's not like there is a body of evidence we can address to formulate a position on the characteristics of God." Then you immediately contradict yourself. You say you look to the universe and the world for evidence, and then you formulate your own position.
But an opinion that is reached without the benefit of education is, needless to say, merely an uneducated opinion.
You say, "Of course when it comes to the question does God exist, we are all amateurs." Actually, thousands of brilliant professional philosophers and theologians have employed their reason, intellects, and all the available evidence to ponder and debate the nature of God for a very long time.
Look, I have no idea what God would be if it existed, or what it would have to be in order to exist, or whether it may have existed, or may yet exist. I have but the flimsiest evidence that you yourself exist (and you very easily could be just a devilish bit of software). And I have no idea how probable it is that I myself exist, and if I do, whether perhaps like you I am just a piece of kludged code.
One thing is for certain, though: Uneducated amateurs produce uneducated amateurish answers. (Then for a wholly undeserved boost to their self-esteem, they nickname themselves "brights".)
I wonder if Brother Dawkins ever has offered the least proof that he himself exists — or do you simply believe in him?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 4, 2007 10:03 PM
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Intelligence Definition
First, "A", excuse me, in my last post I meant Anonymous.
Now to your points about intelligence.
I gave you a definition of intelligence.
If you don't like that one, go to Wikipedia. They have a reasonable study of the Concept.
it's not a perfect concept, but it is a lot clearer than the Concept of God. Or of Pornography.
So if one is going to say intelligence doesn't exist because the concept is fuzzy, we certainly have to say God and Pornography don't exist. I know pornography exists, being God-less.
The measurement is certainly *not entirely* subjective. If you took the five favorite intelligence tests and gave them out, you would get pretty good correlation.
Your characterization in point to, that since there is no concurrance then atheists on this post are dishonest or cowardly, is, with all due respect, bizarre.
I happen to be having a beer after work with all the atheists iin North America, and I guarantee you we will come up with an ironclad definition of intelligence for you.
What country did you say you live in?
Posted by: James | January 4, 2007 4:20 PM
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Intelligence Studies
Once again (let me count the ways) A distorts the question or misreads it.
The proposition was NOT
Scientists do not believe in God
THEREFORE God does not exist.
The Proposition was:
Intelligence and Belief in a Personal God
are negatively correlated.
This could be true, and God could actually exist.
Duh.
I presume elite scientists are more intelligent than I, and I know they are more intelligent than anonymous.
So they are a *sub-group* of the more intelligent people we can use to test our proposition, I believe. If you don't *think* so,throw them out.
Lots of other studies cited on the site I referenced have done correlation studies BEYOND just scientists. But you knew that. You were being cute, I know.
Posted by: James | January 4, 2007 4:10 PM
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James @January 3, 2007 10:16 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding.
I expected two things: a definition of 'intelligence' (not a link about studies on religious opinion); concurrence by the atheists on the board that is is indeed the definition that will be discussed.
I must admit that this is a bit unfair: (1) there is no strict definition of intelligence. That of course makes its measurement subjective; (2) There will be no concurrence since, if you will pardon a blunt way of putting it, the atheists on the board are rather dishonest and cowardly. Let me clarify: the preferred tactic, of the atheists on these boards, is to state "since you can't prove a negative, it is incumbent on the theist to prove his position". I disagree with that of course: If you believe in 0 rather than 1 (or 100), you must prove that 0 is correct.
Posted by: A | January 4, 2007 3:40 PM
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The term "brights" just doesn't work - when you are trying to replace a negative image ("Atheist")with a more positive one, a term that smacks of arrogance is counterproductive. Try "free-thinker." It connotes open mindedness and independent thinking, free of dogma. That is how I came to not believe in any of the multitude of gods, even though my parents pushed one of them. For the current athiest "vogue" to continue, a more positive and descriptive term could only help.
Posted by: AmericanFlyer | January 4, 2007 9:21 AM
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If you ask an intelligent person a yes/no question whether he believes in something about which he is entirely ignorant, what is his response likely to be?
I don't know?
Of course when it comes to the question does God exist, we are all amatuers. We can only give our best guess. It's not like there is a body of evidence we can address to formulate a position on the characteristics of God.
Look at scale of the universe. Try a few prayers. Look around at the injustice in the world. Reflect.
My conclusion? There is no God. Now, you tell me why you think there is one.
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 4, 2007 8:09 AM
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How can an intelligent person — who knows that mastering a field of study requires years of formal education as well as disciplined, determined effort — expect that there is one and only one special body of knowledge that will just appear in his brain through magical revelation?
Is such a belief rational?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 4, 2007 7:50 AM
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If you ask an intelligent person a yes/no question whether he believes in something about which he is entirely ignorant, what is his response likely to be?
Posted by: Anonymous | January 4, 2007 7:44 AM
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None of the studies established whether the interviewees actually knew what they were talking about.
(P.S. I love the idea of simply asking science majors whether they believe in God and then drawing conclusions from that. You could just as well ask English majors to explain nanotechnology, and then conclude that nanotechnology does not exist. It's just so utterly absurd I could scream — and in fact, I am screaming at this very moment.)
Commenting on the existence of invisible friends requires a course? I don't think so.
It just requires native intelligence ... the more intelligent you are, the liklier you are to reach the obvious conclusion, nothwithstanding all the nonsense religites spout.
Oh and you are BAD, a very bad man. Or woman.
Posted by: Brian Coughlan | January 4, 2007 5:44 AM
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I'm a 'closet' bright. Being an atheist in Missouri is not that far from being a Jew in Nazi Germany. But at least I don't live in Kansas!
Posted by: Mike | January 4, 2007 5:21 AM
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James,
A new survey of art history majors concludes that dark matter is a form of Mayan dance ritual.
Posted by: Anonymous | January 4, 2007 1:05 AM
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Hi Rick McGirr:
Just wanted to say thanks for expressing your negative views on the term "brights" so clearly. No matter what anyone says it carries with it the connotation that those who are not atheists/agnostics/pantheists or what have you are dim.
I agree with every word you say. 'Tis a shame that the term has seen the light of day. One of the contributors to another discussion suggested that the term "godless" (nice internal play on the word) would have been much better and there are many other possibilities. Spoiling a good idea with a bad choice of label makes no sense and is not very bright. Why didn't they hold a vote on different possibilities for a suitable name? I can see that they did not want to restrict support to atheists and wanted to include agnostics, pantheists and so on but "brights" simply does not do the trick.
Posted by: Ted Swart | January 3, 2007 9:33 PM
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Okay, I've checked (and then re-verified) all 40 million sites (actually, about 7% were either down or stale links).
None of the studies established whether the interviewees actually knew what they were talking about.
(P.S. I love the idea of simply asking science majors whether they believe in God and then drawing conclusions from that. You could just as well ask English majors to explain nanotechnology, and then conclude that nanotechnology does not exist. It's just so utterly absurd I could scream — and in fact, I am screaming at this very moment.)
Posted by: Anonymous | January 3, 2007 7:15 PM
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