Mormon lifestyles and religious differences

Clayton Christensen article is very well done and really explains that although we are all coming from different directions in our belief systems, we are all trying to hit the same target.

One comment however clearly needs to be corrected. Mormon polygamy in Illinois was not legal. Bigamy was against the law in Illinois at the time. Joseph Smith's marriages to other women began in earnest in 1841 (probably earlier) and of his first ten marriages, eight were to women who were already married. Even by Old Testament standards, it's difficult to characterize such marriages as either from God or moral (for substantial documentation of his marriages, see "In Sacred Loneliness" and "Nauvoo Polygamy," most of which comes from LDS Church historical records). At the time Smith completely denied that he was involved in polygamy.

Statman123, you are absolutely correct. I say that as one of the commenters who fire back sometimes. The vast majority of comment conversations on articles like Christensen's degenerate into arguments about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, polygamy, blacks and the Priesthood, Proposition 8, or how much the Church allegedly tries to “hide” or “whitewash” its history; they usually have nothing to do with the article itself. Christensen could write about knitting patterns and the yapping hyenas would still be there.

Your post as helped me see the error of my ways. From now on, I plan to comment on the article.

NOTE: The following comes from a US Army Chaplain who knows how to work in a pluralistic environment and get along with others of different faiths...

Sad that such a well-written article by a very intelligent fellow received the comments it did. Christensen laid out three great theological markers for measuring the difference in faiths. Why the commenters can't focus on this is beyond me. Folks just want to be petty and grind their axes, I guess. And others feel they have to fire back. Stay focused, people, stay focused.

Great post. Nice method to catergorize the differences of religion and how beliefs guide our large and small decisions.

When the topic of mormonism comes up on these message boards is typical for negative comments to arise about the prophet Joseph Smith, including how he and other early church leaders had many wives in the 1800's.

Often, the comments mention how some of these wives were "teens" and incinuate criminal behavior for having a wife so young.

We forget that it was common in that era for girls of 14 or 15 to be married, not only in the US but most other countries. Only in modern times women are waiting until they are 18, 20, 25 or 30 to get married. Also, many people forget that the prophets of the Old Testament had many wives, including Abraham and Jacob. Polygamy was God's will at the time.

Joseph Smith was called by God to restore Christ's true church on the earth in these, the last days, to teach us more about the path to follow. He was a tool in the hands of God and did his part to help us better comprehend our role in God's plan.

“Mormon polygamy didn't come from God”.

Excuse me?
It’s in the bible. You should read it some time.
Here are the references: Genesis 29:23–30; 30:4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1–2; Jacob 2:27–30.

The US government didn’t “force” the LDS church to cease the practice.

Jesus teaches us that governments have the right to make and enforce their own laws.
Our 12th article of faith reads: “12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

No other faith openly makes that statement.

Because God is a just being, he does not authorize polygamy in a country that does not allow it. That would be contradictory to his requirement to follow the law of the land. Because the majority of the countries in the world don’t allow it, he has stopped authorizing it all together.

By the time the US government passed the law, there was no authorized polygamy in the LDS church. God knew it was coming.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

Joseph Smith also wrote: "Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409).

So contrary to the original point of Christensen, we all do pick and choose, as we should. It is simply not a half truth or lie that Brigham Young said and believed those things about polygamy, and Mormons who have read Brigham Young's writings know it. My hope is that Mormonism will one day truly disavow the worst of its past (not continue to maintain that these unethical practices were of God at the time), and continue to embrace the good that is certainly also a part of its heritage.

Perhaps the best lies in the world are half truths. It includes taking things out of context and presenting them as the whole truth. Some of these comments written here reflect this pattern. I suggest to anyone who wants a fair representation of comments directed at Joseph Smith and the Church to look at the LDS Fair Apologetics Homepage at www.fairlds.org

Central to the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith taught: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

My LDS faith has taught me to believe in Christ and I strive each day to follow His teachings. I love Paul’s declaration, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth…”

Mormon polygamy didn't come from God and thankfully the US government forced the Mormons to stop the practice (ever so reluctantly and gradually). Here are some quotes from the "prophet" Brigham Young on the practice. This gives you a sampling of his moral character:
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269)
Thus this monogamic [sic] order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers....“Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practised it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' It is the only popular religion there,...” (The Deseret News, August 6, 1862)
“I could prove to this congregation that I am young; for I could find more girls who would choose me for a husband than can any of the young men.”(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 210)
“Brother Cannon remarked that people wondered how many wives and children I had. He may inform them, that I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly.”(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, page 178)

Eichendorff

Well Said... .

Mark
Always seek the truth.

The contributions of Joseph Smith are indeed necessary to the complete faith of Latter-day Saints, as are the contributions of all prophets God has called in the entire history of mankind. All of the prophets were imperfect human beings, but their imperfections did not prevent God from calling them as prophets, nor did they negate the truth of the revelations God gave to them.

It is not difficult to believe that the teachings of polygamy and the withholding of the priesthood from certain people of African descent were from God. The priesthood was withheld from all tribes of Israel except Levi. That is no longer the case. The ancient Israelites were commanded to offer animal sacrifices. Jesus did away with this practice as part of his mission. God has given commandments and rescinded them on multiple occasions throughout history. The practice of polygamy and the withholding of the priesthood are just two more instances.

The Church has never whitewashed the history of Joseph Smith, nor any other leader. Nothing he did disqualifies him as a prophet, nor does anything he did negate the truth of the First Vision or the Book of Mormon or his other revelations.

If you want to learn what Joseph Smith was really like to the best of our knowledge, I have a few suggestions. First, don't bother reading the Wikipedia article, which really only serves to help the intellectually indolent feel good about themselves. Wikipedia might help you understand Harry Potter or Star Wars, but not a subject as large and complex as Joseph Smith. Instead, talk to an LDS friend or acquaintance. Attend an LDS worship service. Read Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. Then, study the Joseph Smith papers. This project isn't finished yet, but when it is done there will be at least 20 volumes.

Believe me, many Church members have already settled these issues in their own minds, not the least of which is Clayton Christensen, the author of this article. The truth and integrity of Joseph Smith's work will continue, in spite of anti-Mormon trolls.

In response to Faithful 3, the main problem for those who don't believe in Mormonism isn't just polygamy and the Church's historic treatment of people of African descent (although it's inexplicable that the Mormon Church continues to believe that those teachings were from God at the time), but rather Joseph Smith. People who are investigating Mormonism need to closely examine his life and teachings. He is foundational to the Mormon Church, in the same way that L Ron Hubbard is foundational to Scientology. In the Mormon Church you can believe in God and Jesus, but if you don't also believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, your belief is incomplete. Much of the history of Joseph Smith and other early leaders has indeed been whitewashed by the Church (even as these men continue to be revered as "prophets"). A good place to start is the Wikipedia entry for Joseph Smith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.

From my perspective, SBRIAN's and some other commenters' descriptions of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are disconnected from reality. The Church sets high standards and expects its members to live up to those standards if they wish to be considered in good standing. Of course, the Church forces no one to do anything and every member is free either to live according to those standards or not.

The idea that the so-called “tent” in the LDS faith narrow is ridiculous. There are more than 50,000 missionaries throughout the world who invite everyone, regardless of race or culture, to listen to their message and then join the Church if they so choose. I'm not sure which tent one could possibly imagine that is larger than the entire world.

Church leaders in times past have indeed criticized other Christians, and with good reason. It was so-called Christians who persecuted Latter-day Saints and drove them from place to place. It was a so-called Christian who, as governor of Missouri, issued an extermination order against the Mormons. Given the persecution of Mormons in the 19th century, it's not surprising that 19th century LDS leaders criticized those who had so abominably abused them. On the other hand, this sort of criticism is nothing compared to the putrid bile that has been and is still directed against Mormons by so-called Christians, so pardon me if don't lose any sleep over it.

I have been a member of the Church all of my 59 years. Never, not once, have I heard any vicious comments directed against blacks or interracial marriages. I have lived in two foreign countries outside the United States and the Church as an institution and its members were always welcoming of everyone. Of course, members are imperfect and sometimes they say and do things they shouldn't, but Mormons are not the only ones who are guilty of this.

The Church does not try to whitewash anything. To suggest otherwise is itself a vicious and destructive lie.

Frankly, I'm sick to death of those who whine incessantly about Mormons. One of the things that makes me give thanks to God every day that I have the privilege of belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that we don't slander and libel those who disagree with us.

Jesus taught in Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

These verses suggest that his truth is not a "big tent" as another commenter wrote, where truth is different for each person who enters, but a tight squeeze at the gate and narrow path thereafter. It seems obvious to me that where there are two or more different and conflicting teachings, whether about God or heaven or about how we should live. There is no logical way to make all of them true. The only alternatives are that all are false, or that one is true and the others are false. That doesn't mean that different denominations can't share many true beliefs, but where they differ people need to seek God humbly and with a desire to know and follow his will in order to know it for themselves. Mormons believe that each person may learn the truth according to James 1:5 by asking God in faith and humility.

At some point we must each confront the meaning of existence or the lack thereof. For those who think the LDS church sounds too hard to believe, I would suggest that they read the story of Nathanael in John 1: 45-49.

Mormonism, among the unbelievers, always seems to come down to polygamy and the blacks and the priesthood. There is no easy answer to satisfy those who want one... but what I can write, and what I whole heartedly believe is that faith is the key to the believer of any religion. Without it, loyalty to any teaching that requires self discipline and sacrifice will evaporate. As a faithful Latter-day Saint I know with certainty that God is in charge and that if I stay true to His teachings, I will be blessed and life will be good.

"There is no "big tent" in the LDS faith as the author confirms. The tent is very narrow and circumscribed. The upside is commitment to important moral values; the downside is a blind fundamentalism with little room for non-conformity. Mormonism has much more in common on a sociological level with Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, and the Nation of Islam, than with maintream Christianity. This absolutist, authoritarian approach to religion can help provide moral discipline for those who need it, but certainly at a cost--the cost that comes with all authoritarian systems."

Excellent post, SBRIAN.

IMO, after 150 years of mormon leaders condeming Christians in the vilest language, the demand the mormon church makes now to be recognized as "Christian" is hypocrisy of the first order.

I was in those pews when the statement "we are a peculiar people" was made, and heard with my own ears the condemnation of the Catholic Church in particular. I was in those pews and heard the vicious comments about blacks and interracial marriage.

The mormon church is trying its best to whitewash that history, but there are a lot of us old enough to remember and the internet to help us spread the word.

In response to a few misinformed comments below: Mormon doctrine places the responsibility of learning the mysteries of God squarely on the shoulders of the individual. This is obtained by feasting on the canon of scripture, praying frequently, obeying God's commandments and living up to all promises made with God. Throughout this life-long effort the LDS individual is not bound to the interpretations and opinions of one pastor, one set of scripture or one creed; it is their responsibility to seek broader and deeper understanding by personal study and by personal application of faith, which creates a synergy that opens the door to divine revelation. Mormon doctrine encourages members to embrace all God has revealed, does reveal, and will yet reveal; this open-mindedness for more absolute truth is a stark contrast to mainstream Christian thought, which often prescribes a set circumference as the bounds of personal belief because of a long-standing sentiment that enough of God's instructions already exist. Furthermore, the LDS Church organization is anything but authoritarian, which is defined as a leadership with over-bearing and tyrannical disposition. My experience with LDS Church leaders, as will be the case for the most part, has consistently shown that they exercise no unrighteous dominion, nor do they attempt to control others; instead, in every case (whether I am asked to assist in something or I am confessing a personal problem in my life), LDS leaders have demonstrated abundant gentleness and meekness, kindness, pure knowledge and genuine love. Despite being a lay ministry, the LDS leaders I have associated with consistently behaved without hypocrisy or guile; each has shown, in their own humble way, that they strive to uphold principles of righteousness without aspiring towards the honors of men or their own vain ambition. Unfortunately, these attributes are difficult to find in the leadership of so many organizations in the world today.

The Saviour said, "An evil tree cannot produce good fruit". I have heard and read over and over, Mormons are good people but their church is evil. You cannot have it both ways.
I joined The Church 55 years ago and noticed almost immediately Mormons do not use The Saviour's name in vain. Start noticing when you are around religious and non religious friends. It is suprising.
I have had 55 wonderful years in what I consider the Church Of Jesus Christ, the greatest organization on this earth. The Welfare, Humanitarian, and service to non-members programs are unsurpassed.

RBPCBP

You should read the epistle of Paul to the Romans before you make a fool of your self.

Oops! Too late...

Mark
Always seek the truth.

So let me see, I think I'll fly up to the moon and talk to those Quaker like people about this. But I am sure when I get my own planet and become a god, it will be perfectly clear.
Anyone, who thinks lds is Christian is a fool.

Falcon269, I stand in awe and utter amazement at your incisive commentary and thorough analysis of Mr Christensen's views.

As a 40 year-old father and member of the Church of Jesus Christ, I can see the points of those commented so far, and of the author of the article.
Being LDS, or Mormon, is a 24/7 lifestyle. But so is being a responsible father, husband, worker, soldier and friend.
No matter if I were Presbyterian, Catholic, Hindu, Jewish or Muslim (or even atheist), I still have full time obligations as a human and adult to be morally true to the human family, my society and community, regardless of my particular faith.

Yes, I believe the priesthood of God is contained in the Greater and Lesser Priesthhoods within the restored church of God, which returned in force in 1830.

Is this too authoritarian? Was Jesus's original church 2,000 years ago too demanding and strict, too narrow a way to accept for salvation?

The key is finding out for oneself if the Book of Mormon is true. If it is, as I have discovered over and over again, the Bible is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the Church of Jesus Christ is present on the earth.

If not, it is a rather authoritarian religion. But if it is true...I am happy with my knowledge and lifestyle.

Verry happy, in fact.

Thanks for the article and thoughts.

I want to start a religion, if only I could find some gold tablets and some rocks.

For the past six months I have been visited by Mormon missionaries and have become good friends with one. We do not agree in our core beliefs, but I will say that I have to admire their faithfulness to me. Mormon Christianity is not mainstream Christianity, but they certainly act more like Christ than most Christians I know, myself encluded. They have actually strengthened my faith and given me a new perspective on how we ought to live in light of eternity. I know I will never agree with their belief system, but I am learning a lot about loving and caring for others through them. My hope is that they will see the life of Christ in me and realize that they are not the true church of Christ, that Christ does live in those of other Christian faiths and the Holy Spirit indwells others even if they have not been baptised into the Mormon church.

Best Quote: "Charlatans masquerading under the banners of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and many others have indeed done horrific things. But these are not the practice of religion. They are the malpractice of it." -So true

I think the attitude that several faiths have adopted stems from a new type of society of relative morals. Society has lost touch with the idea that there is actual truth. There is right and there is wrong. Right now too much of the "wrong" is considered a grey area, or even "OK".

Faith has become something of a consumer based product. Being flexible religion provides the opportunity to fill the pews (or coffers) and possibly reach more people.

The down side is that without sacrifice there is no commitment. Most religions have lowered their spiritual demands on members and ironically seem to get less from members.

Mormons try to market themselves to fill the pews (great tv commercials), but they seem to maintain spiritual demands on their members which seems to translate into a more committed group.

SBrian's comments actual reflect a truism with all faiths, that is that various individuals understand the tenets of their faith differently. This goes beyond cafeteria-style doctrinal choosing, to an issue of personal interpretation. For example, I am a Mormon who feels fine disagreeing with some of the things Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many others in the church have done. They were people. That said, I don't toss all the good away because of a few things with which I disagree.

I have been very open in my disagreement with certain actions of the church and leaders and have never felt worried about loosing my membership (and to be fair, the wrongs levied against the church and leaders are often overblown and inaccurate). I believe of almost all faiths would agree that there is a difference between the church (organization, leaders, policies) and the actual doctrines of that faith. My faith in Mormonism is grounded in Christ. Catholics probably feel the same about the inquisition. Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists probably feel the same about wrongs perpetrated by members o their organizations.

PS, as a serious researcher and someone who as questioned my faith seriously, I find comments about "blindly following leaders" offensive and inaccurate.

As a former Mormon who is very familiar with Mormon views of other faiths, I have to say that the moderation and flexibility of mainstream Christian faiths is an asset rather than a liability. I highly respect the freedom of thought that is often found in these faiths. It is not possible to simply believe in God and strive to live an ethical life in the LDS faith and be in full fellowship. One must accept Joseph Smith and his teachings, and must pledge loyalty and obedience to current senior leaders. And if one finds some of Joseph Smith's teachings and behavior morally repugnant (including using his ministerial authority to marry 30 women, including 10 married women and 10 teen agers), then there is no place for such a person to turn within the faith. By any objective historical standard, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other early Mormon leaders were particularly flawed. These are men who would not be followed by the typical modern Mormon if they appeared today and taught and lived as they did then. There is no "big tent" in the LDS faith as the author confirms. The tent is very narrow and circumscribed. The upside is commitment to important moral values; the downside is a blind fundamentalism with little room for non-conformity. Mormonism has much more in common on a sociological level with Scientology, Jehovah Witnesses, and the Nation of Islam, than with maintream Christianity. This absolutist, authoritarian approach to religion can help provide moral discipline for those who need it, but certainly at a cost--the cost that comes with all authoritarian systems.