'Peaceful, Industrious and Law-Abiding People'

Maurie -

Thanks for the repartee - it's very interesting to dialogue with someone on the opposite side of the fence! For the record, I am by nature a skeptic and it took many years for me to come to realize how this Truth fit all the questions I had. I fully recognize that I may be wrong, but all investigation I have done leads me to the conclusion that there is a God, and that Christianity is the most accurate understanding available of His nature.

In response to your comments -
Maurie: If god is as great as you say he is, why must we do things that bring him glory. If he is really such an omnipotent, omniscient being, he doesn't need our fealty to bring him glory. We usually characterize people who require us to espouse their greatness as megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs generally require an unceasing show of loyalty, which infers that they are not all-powerful, but are, in fact, rather insecure."

God doesn't "need" our fealty for His glory, but He does deserve it. It is what we were created for, and we are the only creatures on Earth with the cognitive ability to recognize the possibility of the Supernatural because He wants us to recognize who He is. I understand your comparison to megalomania, but that is a pejorative term usually placed on people who perpetrate evil on others, passively or agressively, through their hunger for power. God has no co-dependent type of craving for our love, but as a Father He wants us to love Him and show Him the respect He deserves. He has no need for power, because he contains it all. The evil that exists on Earth is caused by man, not by God.

Maurie: "So, you are saying if a serial killer who rapes and murders, then completely repents before god and accepts Christ as his savior, may go to heaven (perhaps a detour to purgatory), but I won't. What kind of a god is that? What about innocent children who die before even being exposed to Christianity? They all are refused entry into heaven? I guess I'll be joining Mark Twain and most of the other great thinkers and moralists in warmer climes for eternity."

What kind of a God is that? A God who only asks that you acknowledge who He is and love Him, accepting what He has revealed. Those who have never had the opportunity to hear the Truth are not accountable to it - but if we hear it, if it is accessible and understandable to us and we turn away, we are openly rejecting Him. Children under the age of accountability are not subject to hell. However, we are all accountable to God for everything we have done on earth, rapists, murderers, thieves, liars, and so on will have to answer for what they have done, whether they repented and accepted Christ or not. I have many things to answer for - things done prior to my acceptance and things after. I would never claim to be able to say that someone is "ineligible" to go to heaven unless that person specifically rejects the Gospel - and then I would only know because they told me. Their hearts are unknown to me and who knows if someone changes his mind? So, I have no comment on Mark Twain or other greats, except that if they're not there, they will be missed.

Maurie: "I would like to note that God does not sound very moral to me. In fact, if you read the bible, some of the things god does to unbelievers and believers alike is absolutely beyond the pale in terms of what we currently consider acceptable behavior."

I agree that there are some really difficult stories in the Bible. I don't have answers to all of them, but I do know that the underlying theme throughout the Judeo-Christian Bible is love. God has said repeatedly that He loves us and wants to bless us all, provided we do what He asks. What he asks is so small, and so doable, and so intuitive, I don't know why so many fight it.
Matthew 22: 36-39: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Maurie: "I do have one final question for you. We live in a country with a secular government, where all people are considered equal before the law. No one presumes to be treated differently depending on what they believe, what religion they practice (in my case no religion at all), what their ethnic background, or what gender they are. How do you treat those in every day life? Do you make such distinctions. Do you treat believers and unbelievers differently?"

As far as I can be certain, I do not treat anyone differently. My husband is not a believer. Most of my family are not Christian. I interact on a daily basis with many different types of people, of different race, gender, creed, sexual preference, religion, etc., and I can't imagine any reason why I would treat any of these differently than I treat any Christians I know. We are all in the same boat, existing in a difficult world, trying as hard as we can to be happy and fulfilled.

I have a question for you: Have you experienced bias based on your atheism? If so, can you tell me the circumstances?

Thanks again!
Julia

Julie - For the record: I do not believe that morality is dependent on Christ - I believe morality is hard wired into us by our Creator.......

There is evidence that morality is semi-hardwired into our genes (see Hauser, M. D. 2006. Moral minds: how nature designed our universal sense of right and wrong. ECCO press).

Julia - I do believe that without Christ God will not allow you into Heaven, regardless of your moral example; what is the point of your morality to Him if it does not bring Him glory?

If god is as great as you say he is, why must we do things that bring him glory. If he is really such an omnipotent, omniscient being, he doesn't need our fealty to bring him glory. We usually characterize people who require us to espouse their greatness as megalomaniacs. Megalomaniacs generally require an unceasing show of loyalty, which infers that they are not all-powerful, but are, in fact, rather insecure.

So, you are saying if a serial killer who rapes and murders, then completely repents before god and accepts Christ as his savior, may go to heaven (perhaps a detour to purgatory), but I won't. What kind of a god is that? What about innocent children who die before even being exposed to Christianity? They all are refused entry into heaven? I guess I'll be joining Mark Twain and most of the other great thinkers and moralists in warmer climes for eternity.

I would like to note that God does not sound very moral to me. In fact, if you read the bible, some of the things god does to unbelievers and believers alike is absolutely beyond the pale in terms of what we currently consider acceptable behavior.

I do have one final question for you. We live in a country with a secular government, where all people are considered equal before the law. No one presumes to be treated differently depending on what they believe, what religion they practice (in my case no religion at all), what their ethnic background, or what gender they are. How do you treat those in every day life? Do you make such distinctions. Do you treat believers and unbelievers differently?

Hi Maurie,

A few days later, but I just read your post and wanted to address it, and I really hope you check back! I did read your original comments, by the way, thank you.

For the record: I do not believe that morality is dependent on Christ - I believe morality is hard wired into us by our Creator, but that in order to enjoy the fullness of life and to experience eternity with God, you must accept Christ and His teachings. You may be a person in your atheism who is a better example of Christian morality than I am, but what separates us is my acceptance of God and His teaching. The difference is not our behaviors, it is our perspective. That does not excuse bad behavior by Christians, either - we are all accountable to God, whether we believe in Him or not!

I do believe that without Christ God will not allow you into Heaven, regardless of your moral example; what is the point of your morality to Him if it does not bring Him glory? The greatest humanitarian acts may be done by a non-believer, and of course God does love it when anyone treats their brother or sister with kindness, but unless we acknowledge His existence and His supremity, we steal the true source of the charity from Him. If you do these things and claim "I am a good person", you are saying that you did this act on your own, without acknowledging the source of your morality, and that you do not recognize His great work in creating you and enabling you to do that act of charity.

I am ashamed by some believers who discriminate against those who do not have Christ for any reason - our purpose as Christians is only to share the love of God through Jesus with others, not to judge those who do not yet have this Truth.

I hope that clarifies it - and there were a couple others who responded to my post, let me address that now briefly:

Bubba - to clarify, the Trinity consists of three persons in one entity; God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. All are equal, all are God, all have always been, and none were Created. John 1: 1-3: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:14: "14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

It's a tricky concept but after all, it's God's, not man's, definition, and I believe that the Creator has a better understanding of it than I do, but I do accept it. The Mormon doctrine on this is significantly different and therefore un-Biblical. Noted on the Seminary school credit - that's a relief! I spent years feeling envious and now I can let it go.

RUW, Regarding my data on divorce, etc. - I confess I did not consult an outside source (as you could see, I did not cite one), but I did do a comparison study during high school between my personal experience and two friends' experience at similar schools in Southern California, and that is where I obtained my information.

Thanks all for the enlightening discussion!
Julia

Sorry - Ignore the second post. I didn't think my first (rather large post) went through - so I split it up. Hence, the second of the two statistics posts is merely a subset of the first.

Rusty:

"Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world."

A source of church growth statistics from a Mormon-friendly site:

http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146548
{An independent, pro-Mormon website}

David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}

"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...

A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
--------------------

Rusty wrote:

"Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world."

Two sources on church growth from Mormon-friendly sites:

[1]
http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146548
{An independent, pro-Mormon website}

David G. Stewart, Jr., MD {church member & former missionary}

"The rapid growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been a frequent and recurring theme in the secular media.
...

A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably."
--------------------

[2]
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/tag/growth
{pro-Mormon; affiliated?}

data for year 2006
--------------------
from: Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches (2007)

Mormon Church: 5,690,672 members (North American)
church growth rate: 1.63 percent.

{US population approx: 300,000,000, Canadian approx: 33,100,000
Percentage of North Americans who are Mormons: less than 2%}

My old friend Sterling Doughty from Steamboat Springs Colorado was fond of a revealing phrase:
"Bringham Young, and plenty of 'em."

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS/mormon). I would like to post some of my thoughts in hopes of generating some conversation that would be meaningful and constructive.

First of all I would like to say that I would love to answer any question posted on here that is written out of a sincere desire to learn or to be informed. Questions that are posed with the intention to create controversy by those who oppose the teachings of the LDS Church will not promote understanding. Let us all seek to accentuate the positive, with kindness and respect. If you are sincerely wondering what we believe and what we do as Mormons, ask us and we will be more than happy to answer.

For other Mormons who are reading this and might wonder how to respond to some of the comments in this forum, may I quote the words of the modern prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, "Let us not be proud or arrogant. Let us be humbly grateful. And let us, each one, resolve within himself or herself that we will add to the lustre of this magnificent work of the Almighty, that it may shine across the earth as a beacon of strength and goodness for all the world to look upon."

As for myself, I was born into an LDS family and was privileged to learn the teachings of Christ from my parents early in my life, but I have learned for myself through personal study and prayer that Christ is the Savoir of the world. Through demonstrating our faith in Christ by following his teachings we can live with God again.

For those of other faiths, I would invite you to take what you have learned, what you have obtained in terms of light and knowledge and bring it with you and see if we cannot add to it, expound upon it and make it brighter. Let us put a cease to the contention and bickering and seek to find common grounds and build from there.

I repeat that I would gladly welcome any question that is posted with a sincere desire to learn, or in an effort to sincerely clarify misunderstanding.

On another backwards Monday let me ask, "In a America, do we have a right to Believe ?". Some may argue that if the belief in question is Christianity then by all means, yes.

So, the virtues taught by JC would have to be explified through the particular sect of Christianity right ? I mean truth and charity top the list to me. And yet, through Christianity are we not taught, that all people are God's children, be circumsised in spirit type of stuff.

And so to me our society makes Christianity the standard to judge all religions. And yet, the Constitution of America goes beyond religion to a spiritual idealism in my book. And founding fathers words went beyond practices of the day. In otherwords a bunch of slave owners said that all men are created equal.

A constant theme is evidenced in American history paralleling mormoms which is isolationism. Quaker, Shakers and Onieda sects come to mind. Mennonite cloisters are still much in evidence today. These examples expound on a fact that certain sects of Christianity in America avoided the mainstream. And for the most part society afforded to them, "The Right to Believe".

Interesting to note the FBI investigates Cults. There are now specific profiling tools to identify cults which may or maynot pose a threat to themselves or the rest of society.

I can think of at least one Christian Cult aligning itself with one particular sect of Christianity. I would think that it would be unfair to name the sect because this Christian Cult is not an example of Christianity or the particular sect in my view.

Let me be direct. One person or one family acting out on its own motives does not make a religious practice God ordained. Charasmatic movements usually follow a particular charasmatic leader. The question needs to be asked in civil tones, is this a righteous man or a Jimmy Jones ?

My opinion is that if there is a "Right to Believe" in America based on the spirituality of the Constitution then that right is still evolving. That's because in practice the right is still focused on Christianity. Some branches of worship may slide if they pass the Christianity test.

My argument is that the Constitution is far more lenient in affording a right to believe to all people. Does it not afford the right not to believe as well ? My bigotry is based on history, I have contempt for Church/State unions.

Well it was a good idea to have a discussion, but a few idiots ruined it for everyone. I remember a statement made by Mark Twain...."It's better for a man to hold his piece and to be thought a fool, than to open his mouth and remove all doubt."

Lots of fools have revealed themselves here.

Jozevz,

Thank for your participation. I always enjoy your posts. I am trying to find some info on Eclati or eclations. Can you help me out?

I want to know what is wrong with a religion that obeys the law, has good standards, loves to serve and help people, and much more other good things? What is the matter with that? I am proud to be a Mormon.

To Christopher Dicki the writer: THANK YOU for writing something uplifting. So much written by people in the recent forums regarding the LDS faith has been so mean spirited towards their fellow Americans. Thank you Again.

To David Waite:
I enjoyed your comments. I grew up in Utah, but for the past 15 have lived other places. I understand your point of view. I think that the Church is perceived much different in places where we are minorities. I could be wrong... Anyway, I just wanted to point out and remember that JFK didn't implement his religious beliefs in is marriage. Just food for thought.

I have to love the arrogance of atheists, considering more people have been murdered in the name of atheism and egalitarianism than any other idea, over 100 million people.

Homosexuals are the epitome of arrogance, expecting everyone to accept their sexual choices and their feelings. What gives you the right to transgress upon my religious freedom? Homosexuality is a disorder, and considering all of the studies that were used to declassify homosexuality as mental illnesses were fraudulent and scientifically useless, homosexuality is what it always was. Sodomy is not a civil right.

Homoarrogance is a sin.

Mormonism will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Christianity, Judaism and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. "Pretty and ugly wingie thingies" simply do/did not exist. Associating the Singularity with these mythical assistants and opponents mocks the concept of God the Almighty.

The Good Word was articulated by the ancients using reasoning and common sense. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were attibuted to embellished men in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time to get our money back!!!!!

The Articles of Faith of the LDS Church:
1)We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2)We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.
13)We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men...
I don't have time to list them all; go to LDS.org and read them. I am a member of the LDS church who has spent most of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have also lived in Texas and Utah. I've been all over the country, and visited many other countries. I have close friends of all religions and preferences. I have never experienced a fraction of the intolorance and hatred that is strewn about this blog, whether it be Mormon to non-Mormon or vice versa. In defense to these awful blog contributions, I must say that every LDS church member I know on a personal level (hundreds, and from all sorts of places) is a NORMAL, DECENT, TOLORANT, LOVING, CHARITABLE, HUMBLE, UPSTANDING CITIZEN. If any of you have had bad experiences with members of the LDS church, I am deeply sorry. People are at the very least highly imperfect and often very short-sighted and immature. Forgive them and move on. Can't we all just get along?

Forgive me, those of you who are perusing this "blog" seriously, for adding yet one more posting in this short period of time. I have been reviewing others in the Washington Post series and feel compelled to offer a comment relevant to nearly all threads I've examined.
I see more than a few (at least reasoned and rational) postings that attempt to attack the LDS church on the basis of "tolerance". Let us examine that word. The word "tolerance" means to accept deviation from the ideal, or required specification. Therefore, "intolerance" is the opposite. It seems from my readings that among those of man-made faith (or none at all) it is believed that ALL ideas should be accepted among ALL people in the name of "tolerance". (Aside: if you have no belief in God, you might examine the "objectivist" philosoply of Ayn Rand who possessed no faith, but DID possess an exceptional mind that would have been revolted at the concept of "tolerance".)

To you advocates of "Tolerance", I pose a challenge: will you wager your life by driving on a suspension bridge built from steel from a manufacturer that was "tolerant" of excess carbon in the the steel? Built by a contractor who was "tolerant" of the construction practices of unskilled labor? Designed by an engineer who was "tolerant" of a 10% deviation in the wind-load calculations (I offer the unwitting example of the Tacoma Narrows bridge in the 40s)? No? Are you, also, then, so intolerant?

If any of you reading this have a functioning mind at all, you must realize that there really does exist the issue of ABSOLUTE value. God's truths are absolute. But, "no", you say, religion is different from physical law (and you, amazingly, cannot see that they are one and the same).

Then I offer those same "tolerant" readers this challenge: tell yourself you "don't believe in gravity" and then (please) go jump off a high place and tell yourself that because you do not believe, you will suffer no penalty for your lack of belief.

If any person living can refute a word of this, please contact Harvard, or Stanford, or MIT or any institute of learning and let them know of your marvelous ability to transcend natural law by your refusal to "believe". I, personally, feel only wonder at what your first thoughts will be when you, like all of us, pass beyond this mortal veil and discover--alas! all too late--that your thoughtless following of thoughtless purveyors of thoughtlessness have led you to piss away this most precious life of which you will by then have realized the value.

None of you need bother to attempt to refute this monolog: absolute truth cannot be refuted and absolutism cannot be abrogated by refusal to acknowledge its existence.

The next thing of which I will be accused is being "arrogant", because of the obvious surety with which I speak. Surety, yes. God alone offers surety. I boast only of God's goodness. I rejoice only in that Absolute Standard that God has given me. Nothing of which any of us are possesed belongs to us and to believe so really IS "arrogance". Except stupidity, which is the "gift" of Satan. Choose, then, in whose debt you wish to be.

Dear God! but these "blogs" have revealed to me a level of human decadence I, in all my cynicism, had heretofore not realized. How unutterably depressing this forum has proven. And yet, knowing God, I can endure. I offer that challenge to all of you subjectivist, "tolerant" readers.

Att: "Warm-Heart", Sister(s) Brother(s) Sholom!

(((((((( V.O.T.E. O.U.R.S. NOW! ))))))))))

One Universal Religion System. "ONE-BOOK" of IT!

A United Nations creation for ALL HUMATE- Species here on Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth, sister Luna, brothers Mars etc..

That will fullfill the prophecy for healing of the Nations and usher-in World peace via the Faith Exchange in GRIDARION *** DEMOCRACY!

There is sholom in "Shiloh"

"....They Sang A NEW SONG for healing of ......"

-ISA: 42:10, 21 et seq.

-REV: 5:9, 14:3, 22:23 et seq.

Praise my Ec;ati in ALL. Ya Ya, IT is FREE., come ONE comeALL never fear, OURS Shiloh has come already and is among thee. : + )/ No joke!

Sorry, not JOSEVZS but
JOZEVZ

Fortune Cookies of the Day:

" Who has confidence in himself will gain the confidence of others."

"We write our own destiny. We become what we do."

"Teachers open the door but you must enter yourself."

And these two are just for you JACOB JOSEVZS:

"There is no wisdom greater than kindness."

"Use your instincts now."

(((((HUGS)))))

I suppose we'd better add the previous posting to the list of transportees. This "blog" is supposed to be a serious discussion between (reasonably) rational humans on issues of importance. There is no place here for the irrational ramblings of lunatics. Please find the proper place where you sadly demented creatures can beat yourselves into (if possible) even greater insensibility without burdening those of us already struggling in a world polluted by the mere existence of such unreason. I understand Beta Zar is offering financial incentives for immigrants: apply at www.godsaveus.com.

It is now 7 plus years after the millenium, time for all of the crazies to crawl back into their caves for another thousand years; GOD is not coming, again!

Also time for the Christians to give it up. Celebrating the torture and death of their GOD for the terrible calamity of being created defective by the "Just" GOD defective and then requiring "Human" sacifice to GOD for taht same GOD's mistake is bizarre and just plain dumb.

The so-called Bible is such a ridiculus accumulation of distortions, lies, ignorance, and endless contradictions; to use this "book" as a basis of spiritual work is a hopeless mess.

Those who treat their chosen words from this book as literal are especially crazy! Have you noted that the most common phrase for these people is "And that means" ... something different than what it saya we guess. They claim a respect for life in a pwtre dish, yet support an immoral war by an immoral President. They support killing thousands by preventing effective prevention because they think all sperm squirted inot a condrum is murder or worse. Their blind support of crusades and zionist movements have killed thousands more. Their ignorance is an ugly thing and their hypocracy is evil; we must move on from these pathetic people.

Is it possible to ship the creature "Jacob Jazevz" to Frogstar B, where he would be happier and benefit 6 billion humans immensely? The man quite obviously has a brain that leaks; is filled with hate, has fewer than 3 functioning neurons and obviously thinks than random characters typed constitute "communication". The man is a disease and the mere existence of such a creature demonstrates quite palpably that all Christ spoke of in these last days is utterly true. Please, you revolting excresence, go back to New York (or whatever cesspool you crawled from) and let those of us who attempt to honestly communicate do so without your really mindless babblings. Have you sought professional help for your existence?

Peter,
Just an add on that you might also enjoy...
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 25:23)

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

it's degenerated enough for long enough...

Peter
"Forgiveness of sins: I stated that forgiveness of sins is something we cannot earn, do not deserve and is something granted to us through the grace of God. "
I agree and site the following:
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:8)

8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:21)

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
"If Paul isn't enough for you, Jesus tells the parable of the workers and the wages. It's only one of several parables that affirm the grace and love of God is what saves us. The workers who arrive at the last hour receive the same wages as those who worked all day, at the discretion of the employer. "
This may give you some added understanding:
Dallin H. Oaks
As we seek to determine whether we have become true Latter-day Saints—inwardly as well as outwardly—it soon becomes apparent that the critical element is progress, not longevity. The question is not how much time we have logged, but how far we have progressed toward perfection. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said, ‘Life is not lineal, but experiential, not chronological, but developmental.’ 1  The issue is not what we have done but what we have become. And what we have become is the result of more than our actions. It is also the result of our attitudes, our motives, and our desires. Each of these is an ingredient of the pure heart.
Some persons achieve great progress toward perfection with just a few of life's experiences. Others seem to pass through the same experiences again and again and yet remain relatively unchanged by them. The contrast is suggestive of the difference between the status of one person with four years' experience and another person with one year's experience repeated twenty times. The question is not longevity but growth. Growth is not measured by a clock or an odometer but by what has happened in the heart.
These truths provide an insight into the parable of the laborers in the vineyard …When the day was over, the householder instructed his steward to pay every man the same wage. Those that were hired at the eleventh hour received the same as those who had worked all day. When the all-day workers murmured, complaining that those who had worked but one hour were paid the same as those who had ‘borne the burden and heat of the day’ (Matthew 20:12), the house-holder reminded them that all had been paid the agreed amount and therefore none had any cause for complaint.
This parable teaches us that the rewards we will receive in the judgment will not be computed according to the duration of our service. Exaltation, the ultimate reward of the Father, is available to all who qualify.2 Eternal life is "the greatest of all the gifts of God. None can receive more than this.
By reason of their willingness and their loyalty to their master, by the end of the day the laborers hired in the eleventh hour had become as much—had qualified as completely—as those who had served the entire period. The master's rewards were not given for the time served or for any other external measure. His rewards were for the ultimate and comprehensive internal measure—what the workers had become within themselves as a result of their service.
1 (Ensign, December 1986, p. 23)
2 (See Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966] 1:561.)
(Pure In Heart, Bookcraft, p. 140)
(Dallin H. Oaks is a current apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a former State Supreme Court Judge)

((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock M. ROMNEY, For Prez ))))))))

Ya Ya Monsa Monso *

You don't have to be a moron to be a Mormon. But it helps.

OH JESUS MARIA PLEEZE WHATS GOING ON. HERE WE HAVE A CULT THAT DENEGRATES WOMEN, GAYS AND LESBIANS TO 2ND CLASS STATUS AND THEY THINK THEIR CHURCH IS MAINSTREAM! GET A LIFE!
SOME OF THOSE DUDES THAT RUN THE CHURCH ARE RIPE TO JOIN BARNUM AND BAILEY CIRCUS THEY HAVE OPENINGS FOR HOMOPHOBIC CLOWNS RIGHT NOW! NO WONDER MEMBERS HAVE TO DONATE 10 % OF THEIR INCUM TO THE CHURCH, REMEMBER JOSEPH SMITH AND BRIGHAM YOUNG HAD WELL OVER 100 WIVES IN BETWEEN THEM! OH JESUS IT SHOW US ONCE MORE THAT RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER!

"personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach"

Ransom:

Thank you for making this statement. I agree 100%! I know many good Christians of many different faiths. They are all trying to live the teachings of Christ. Although I may not believe exactly as they believe, they are still good people trying to live His teachings. That is what I respect.

Having said that, I must also state that failure to believe in Jesus Christ does not stop one from being a good person. I wish all of us could focus on the good in people instead of feeling the need to tear others down because their belief system is different.

the last post that I posted was a spin off of katakaha's post..Just wanted to make sure all ya'll without the HUMOR gene realized that...the last thing I want is A Backlash like that in Baghdad..no wait that is the Muslims?? All these talks of diffrent regions and religions has me seeing things...and no not prophecy neither!!

-ransom-

katakaha:

yeah they came to my door and wanted to explain the Teaching of the Latter Day Saints..no wait that was the Mormons'..!!

The mormons are and have always been a good,non violent and peaceful group *** Remember Mountain Meadows! And truth is their paramount ideal *** The Book of Abraham proves it.

what is the eldils? I just wnat to figue out what that guy is saying, I know somewhere between the CAPS LOCK and the Ya Ya is an intelligent human being..humate is that a word...anyway can any of ya'll answer some quick questions for me..

1.) why can't I have more than one* wife?
2.) if I belong to a group of individuals like the Mormons and they respect me and treat me good while we enjoy worshipping Christ the Messiah, then why would that be terrible?
3.) how many Mormons does it take to elect a President??
4.) why can't we all spend more time praising Christ the Messiah instead of bickering over who does it better?
5.) oh and why don't Church of Christ listen to music?? King David danced so hard his clothes fell off, I personally couldn't dance that hard, but so what??
6.) why are Mormons any diffrent than all the other sects of Christianity lead be 'Elders' that believe their Dogma is more holy?
me personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach

If I'm way off base with these assumptions and questions then please let me know, I just know I read the WORD and take it on FAITH, if there is a better SYSTEM out there then Let me know!!

*that is assuming I could even consider having more than one woman in my life who is willing to love me!! KING SOLOMON ANYONE???

What really gets me is how they invaded Britain and spread their Frenchy ways all over the land. Oh, that was Normans. Sorry.

Ransom:
Ask the eldils about Jacob. I think they probably know him personally.

"Just thought you could sock it to the Mormons a little harder."

I can't find that phrase in the New Testament. Was it something Jesus said to do? Can you point me to the reference?

Is it any wonder the left-wing kooks look at the "mainstream" Christians and wonder what the heck is going on? I mean, seriously people. Can't you represent just a little bit better than that? You know, be something like a _light_ on a hill instead of a burning cross?

Have some class.

sorry about the spelling, no spell check can stop me...muhahaha!!! Love ya'll have some fun and remember atleast we don't say Photon blahblah..Eclati all the time!!! see ya'll laterz!!!

-ransom-

Wow...All I really want to know is about that Eclati crap...what is that guy smoking?? Hey for the rest of ya'll seriously, do ya'll even think of all the energy it takes to keep walking around & around in this revolving door argument..The Mormons on here will scream "we are the best at following" the rest will scream "we are the best at listening" All I want to know is how all this energy in pointing to the 'others' as wrong really accomplishes anything other than making all who search for Christ the Messiah :(turned off:(???

but for what it is worth without all ya'll bickering amongst yourselves I would be rather bored at work, so I say THANK YOU for keeping me entertained..Peace be With you All!!!
-ransom-

Hey Peter--

Thanks for your responses. Wasn't necess. trying to argue with you. Just thought you could sock it to the Mormons a little harder. I agree with you that we are purely saved by the grace of God; however, think James makes good point that we won't be saved if we believe and do nothing.

I'm non-denominational believer.

Hey Pumpkin Eater,

Thanks for your response! I too have limited time at the moment but will respond to your responses:

On the concept of the Holy Trinity: OK, I'll do research and come back. I agree the Nicene creed affirms this doctrine. You make good points worthy of a well thought out response.

Forgiveness of sins: I stated that forgiveness of sins is something we cannot earn, do not deserve and is something granted to us through the grace of God. Yes, James says faith without works is dead. But check out these passages about faith vs. works:

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

If Paul isn't enough for you, Jesus tells the parable of the workers and the wages. It's only one of several parables that affirm the grace and love of God is what saves us. The workers who arrive at the last hour receive the same wages as those who worked all day, at the discretion of the employer.

In a life of faith, those who work all day do it joyfully in service to the Lord. Works grow out of faith. But works do not purchase our salvation, and if you are reading James to mean that, I believe you are wrong. James is saying if you really believe, your works will show it. It is NOT a Christian belief to think that we can earn the forgiveness of our sins, but it seems to be a Mormon one.

Baptism: I still insist that once you are baptised a Christian, your baptism is fully Christian and no additional baptism is required. Yes, I fully understand that there are differences between denominations concerning infant and Believer baptism. If you had been baptized as an infant I'd say those who required you to be re-baptized were wrong.

But I think my point is still legitimate. Mormons would reject any Christian baptism as being insufficient, and think that theirs is the only true baptism. That is no where in the Bible.

On scripture: Very good point on your part. Yes, there is the Apocrypha and apocryphal writing that can be debated. However, I do not think it is a red herring to cite Joe Smith's writings when citing a difference between Christianity and Mormonism. Only Mormons believe the things that Smith wrote, and those writings are so far off the track from any other Christian scripture, apocryphal or not, that it stands alone as a clearly different belief system. But I'll work on this one some more and get back to you, if the thread is still going.

Meanwhile, what do you believe?

"Law abiding? When they use some very unusual ways to "cure" gays?"

Roy,

I assume you're talking about aversion therapy? This was an experimental therapy used decades ago to treat a number of "conditions". Supposedly it was tried at BYU for a time as a possible "cure" for gays. Homosexual attraction was grossly misunderstood then (and still really isn't understood now). Its use was not limited to any particular church or group. And in fact electro-shock therapy is still practiced today in limited ways for certain disorders. Remember, at the time, homosexuality was considered by science to be a mental disorder. I wouldn't hang my hat on this one...

Neal

what is all this stuff about mormans? who cares? they dont preach hate or murder. there is nothing in that group to indicate they are not loyal americans. so what is all this morman stuff?

Sue Anderson,

Thanks for a great post. Continue your questioning ways. Your parents sound wonderful.

Sorry, Gary, I meant to respond to Greg.

Gary,

The Bible states in 2 Timothy Chapter 3:

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

I am sorry that you feel outcast from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but the Bible warns everyone to turn away from men "without natural affection."

I was born and raised in the mormon church and it seemed ok. Then my family moved to Utah and it was like we were going to the Nazi version of the mormon church. Suddenly we didn't dress good enough, we didn't drive a good enough car, we didn't live in a good enough house. On and on, nothing we did was good enough. Then all of the sudden they gave my parents lots of church jobs even though there were lots of people with no church jobs. The other parents wouldn't let us play with their kids. They wouldn't talk to us at school or anywhere. Then someone told my mom that there was a rumor going around about how my mom was having an affair and my dad was stealing from his work!!!! We moved away from there so fast!! We moved to an area with no mormons and found a really nice christian church to go to. So my parents wrote letters to salt lake telling them we all wanted to resign. We all signed the letters and sent them off. About 8 months after we mailed them, some mormon guy showed up at our door without calling or anything. The mormon guy said he was our branch president and we had to ask him permission to resign. My dad called a lawyer!! After the lawyer yelled at the mormon guy and at salt lake, we got resigned really fast!! Now my parents have lots of time for us kids and we don't have to go to church like every day of the week anymore.

The frontline special should have been followed by the South Park episode that dealt with the Mormon phenomena. Nice folks, who happen to also follow one of the most curious belief systems in the Western world. As the background music in South Park put it....Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb....

“Really a child decides to join the Mormon cult at what age? Children don't join the Mormon cult or the christian cult for that matter...they are indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing that crap by their parents.

Give me a break. Must be sad to be so intellectually inferior that you have to believe in a mystical god/monster who's never been seen even once in order to get through life and face your inevitable permanent death.

We don't teach our children (and there are 5, 3 adopted, 2 by surrogacy) to hate your cult like the hate and intolerance you people spew like a broken sewer. We teach them to pity you for your failings as Americans and your bigotry.”

Greg

In Response:

Sir,

You don't know my history so you cannot assume that I was a convert as a child. It is presumptuous of you to believe that - you even claim that I'm American, yet I don't know how you can know that either. There are more members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints OUTSIDE the United States then there are in the USA. The Church has never failed America, it is America who failed the early members of the church by not providing religious freedom.

Even if I had been raised in the church as a child, every member of the church must at some point stand on their own two feet and either accept or reject the teachings of the church even if they were introduced to it by their parents. I do not consider myself to be intellectually inferior to have the beliefs that I do. Intellectually inferior people insult people for their convictions. I don't believe in an invisible God as you state and the assumptions that you claim - are baseless. I don't hate anyone whether they are in the church or not. I have good friends that come from every persuasion, religious and not religious. And as for being a cult, I am free to leave the church whenever I want...would you call that a cult?

The real definition of pity, sir, is to show compassion for the suffering, distress, or misfortune of others. I am not in any suffering or distress - but I am intelligent enough to know that that is not what your really meant. Choose your words more carefully. Thanks.

Law abiding? When they use some very unusual ways to "cure" gays?

Emily - I especially enjoyed reading the response of John D the First to Maurine Beck and her response in return. Some great things to think about.

Thanks for appreciating my posts. By the way, my name is Maurie, not Maurine, and I'm a fella, though don't worry about it. Thanks for your post.

Haven't taken much time, but here are some simplistic thoughts. My answers in ALL CAPS after your point. BASED ON MY VERY QUICK READ THROUGH, AND NO RESEARCH, YOU GET ONLY TWO POINTS OUT OF ALL YOU PUT UP. LIKE I SAID, DO SOME REAL RESEARCH AND COME BACK AGAIN.

For example, Mormons believe God became the Supreme Being, that at one time He was less powerful than He is now. Christians believe God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, that He is eternal and was never less than the all powerful being He is now. That is an incredibly big difference. No Christian church believes what the Mormons do about God the Father. YOU ARE CORRECT HERE.

Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers, and that Jesus was the good brother who agreed to God’s plan of atonement for sin. Christians do not believe that at all. Christians believe that Jesus IS God, that God Himself came to us in the bodily form of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all ONE God, three aspects of one being. It’s nearly incomprehensible, but the mystery of the Trinity is a foundational Christian belief. SEE THE CREATION OF THIS DOCTRINE IN VARIOUS NICENE CREEDS. AS SOMEONE STATED ABOVE, ONLY A SEEMINGLY SCHIZOPHRENIC GOD WOULD ACT OUT LUKE 3:22. COUNTLESS EXAMPLES IN NEW TESTAMENT WHERE CHRIST TALKS ABOUT GOD THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AS SEPARATE ENTITIES FROM HIMSELF. AND CHRIST PRAYS (TO HIMSELF?). SORRY, NEVER HAVE ACCEPTED A SCHIZOPHRENIC GOD. HAVE TO GIVE THIS ONE TO THE MORMONS.

Mormons believe Jesus and God are separate entities. That belief, in and of itself, means that Mormonism is a different religion from Christianity. It is an enormous and fundamental difference. You will read and hear teachings about Jesus in the Mormon church that you will not hear in any Christian church of any kind. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT WHEN I SAID DIG DEEPER. OTHERWISE, YOUR "SEPARATE" ARGUMENT DOESN'T FLY. SEE ABOVE POST.

Mormons also believe forgiveness of sins is earned through works, which is inherently non-Christian. Christians believe forgiveness of sins is an act of grace from God, not deserved or earned in any way. These are HUGE differences. READ JAMES 2:14-26 IF YOU THINK YOU CAN BE SAVED MERELY BY BELIEVING. YES, WE ARE ONLY SAVED BY THE GRACE OF CHRIST. BUT JAMES POINTS OUT THAT IT'S AFTER ALL THAT WE CAN DO. AS JAMES STATES, EVEN THE DEVIL BELIEVES.

Mormons believe that the dead can be baptized by proxy, and that the only true baptism is a Mormon baptism. Baptism of the dead is not a Christian belief. It is uniquely and exclusively Mormon. YOU HAVE A POINT HERE, THOUGH I'VE ALWAYS WONDERED WHAT 1 COR. 15:29 IS ALL ABOUT.

Christians believe if you are baptized in a Christian baptism, you’re baptized, period. Whether it was in a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or any Protestant denomination, when you are baptized, you’re baptized a Christian, and you’re part of the covenant. (I HAD TO BE REBAPTIZED WHEN I ACCEPTED CHRIST. LOOKS LIKE THE OTHER GUY DID ALSO.)

Mormons do not believe that any baptism other than their own is a full baptism. This is inherently non-Christian. (SEE ABOVE.)

And finally, no Christian church believes that anything written by Joe Smith is Holy Scripture, which of course is the source for all the differences between the two religions. (RED HERRING. YOU COULD DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS BASED ON THEIR ACCEPTANCE OF APOCRYPHA, ETC. YOU COULD DISTINGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF CATHOLICISM BASED ON DIFFERENT ACCEPTANCE. LAME ARGUMENT.)

I do not think any one sect has exclusive rights to such all-encompassing words as "Christian". There are many Islamic sects that have different teachings but it would be appropriate to categorize them under the larger umbrella of Islam. The same can go for any blanket religious category, Buddhist, Atheist, Hindu. Mormons have obviously declared that they believe in Jesus and his teachings. I cannot see an valid reason why it is not appropriate to call them such. Simply because their beliefs are different than Catholicism or Protestantism is a very poor argument for not labeling them 'Christian'.

Julia - If you haven't read my first post at the top of the comments, please do. It sounds like my friend's daughter got the same treatment you got.

On another note; I am an atheist. A lot of believers are offended by atheism and see us as some strange mutant creatures that cannot possibly embody American ideals and values. Many believers believe there can be no morality without having Christ as a personal savior. As a believer who has experienced sectarian discrimination, how do you view non-believers like myself?

OK, Pumpkin Eater. Have at it. I look forward to your response. And come up with a more clever name for yourself.

Taker - did I say I hated Mormons? I did not. I said they are not Christians because they believe things Christians don't believe. If that is so (and it is) then why claim to be Christian?

There are many more examples of the differences between the two religions, just check out the Book of Mormon, or The Pearl of Great Price.

But did I say I hated Mormons? Nope. I disagree with their beliefs, and don't see why they want to call themselves Christians when they're not. That's my beef.

"Christianity and Mormonism are two different religions."

Okay, we agree so far.

"My question is why do Mormons seemingly want to be counted as just another Christian denomination (Dr. Skinner’s column in another thread made that basic argument) when that is not what they are? Why not just admit yours is a separate religion?"

Okay, I admit it. "Mainstream" Christians claim to have the reformed gospel. We claim to have the restored gospel. :)

Since I'm running short on time and have to catch my transportation home, I'm gonna boil it down.

How to Overcome Religious Bigotry

(Warning, this may take more time than using Google or posting to a blog. Set aside at least a month to do this right.)

1) Go to the church you feel you want to hate. Attend. The whole service. Go to the potluck on Saturday.

2) Read the religious canon of that church. If it's the Bible, read it front to back. If it's something new, read that front to back. Ask members how they feel. Don't interrupt or change the subject.

3) Put the media's, your pastor's or priest's or best buddy's talking points down and obey the first commandment...you know, the one about worshiping God and not men (or their intellects, or their "research", or their hate). Now, ask God whether that religion has the truth (remember, He loves you, so he won't be mad if you ask Him). No answer? Still don't know? It's not because God doesn't answer prayers. It's because we don't listen with our hearts and with humility.

Gotta run!

Yeah, Peter. If you really hate the Mormons, I'm sure you can find better methods to show your hatred. Sorry, but your points are pretty weak. Like Pumpkin Eater said, go do some more research and come back with some real good arguments. (And by the way, I had to be rebaptized in my Evangelical church when I found the true Jesus, so....)

Peter--

Surely you can do better than this. Even I, not a Mormon apologist, can punch holes in most of your arguments straight from the Bible without doing much work. C'mon. If you're going to attack the church, do heavy lifting and craft better arguments. You can do it, man! Get some real arguments that draw blood! I have faith (without works) in you. I know you can do it!

There are many wonderful people who are Mormons and the Mormon church does many good deeds. That’s all fine and good; just as it is for any other religion to do good works, promote family life, give of talent and treasure, etc.

But Mormons seemingly want to call themselves Christians, and they’re not. Christianity and Mormonism are two different religions. Mormonism is pseudo-Christian, and that’s simply the truth.

Why? Because Mormons believe things that no other Christians believe. The differences go way beyond differences between denominations or differences between Protestants and Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc. The differences are foundational and profoundly opposite.

For example, Mormons believe God became the Supreme Being, that at one time He was less powerful than He is now. Christians believe God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, that He is eternal and was never less than the all powerful being He is now. That is an incredibly big difference. No Christian church believes what the Mormons do about God the Father.

Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers, and that Jesus was the good brother who agreed to God’s plan of atonement for sin. Christians do not believe that at all. Christians believe that Jesus IS God, that God Himself came to us in the bodily form of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all ONE God, three aspects of one being. It’s nearly incomprehensible, but the mystery of the Trinity is a foundational Christian belief.

Mormons believe Jesus and God are separate entities. That belief, in and of itself, means that Mormonism is a different religion from Christianity. It is an enormous and fundamental difference. You will read and hear teachings about Jesus in the Mormon church that you will not hear in any Christian church of any kind.

Mormons also believe forgiveness of sins is earned through works, which is inherently non-Christian. Christians believe forgiveness of sins is an act of grace from God, not deserved or earned in any way. These are HUGE differences.

Mormons believe that the dead can be baptized by proxy, and that the only true baptism is a Mormon baptism. Baptism of the dead is not a Christian belief. It is uniquely and exclusively Mormon.

Christians believe if you are baptized in a Christian baptism, you’re baptized, period. Whether it was in a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or any Protestant denomination, when you are baptized, you’re baptized a Christian, and you’re part of the covenant.

Mormons do not believe that any baptism other than their own is a full baptism. This is inherently non-Christian.

And finally, no Christian church believes that anything written by Joe Smith is Holy Scripture, which of course is the source for all the differences between the two religions.

My question is why do Mormons seemingly want to be counted as just another Christian denomination (Dr. Skinner’s column in another thread made that basic argument) when that is not what they are? Why not just admit yours is a separate religion?

The relentless Mormon proselytizing of people who are already Christian (which I have experienced) and the belief that being a Mormon is the only true way to salvation (Mormon baptism being the only full baptism for example) speaks to that reality as strongly as anything else.

Mateo,

That's a good question. And it's simply the truth. Satan has power over us _only_ when we choose to disobey God. This statement isn't a threat emanating from God or from the leaders of the Church. It's just a simple fact of life that Satan recognizes and uses to his advantage in pulling us away from God.

Satan's very modus operandi is disobedience. Jesus said it perfectly (of course) when he said "A house divided against itself cannot stand". If we're disobedient, we fall out of favor with the House of God and into favor (and under the power of) Satan. It is only through the atonement of Jesus Christ that we are able to return to the House of God primarily through His intervention and then by showing that we will be obedient.

The fact that these words are part of the temple teachings were never meant to be taken as harassment or threat. Sincere members of the Church do not see it that way. The ones who are not sincere, who are looking to find fault so that they can be the first to make the accusation and get the acclaim of the world for doing so are the ones who hear it as a threat.

As for the financial records not being open, I don't think you want that anyways. In a free society, a church, just as any family, should be able to keep such matters private and confidential. The only thing that could reasonably usurp that ideal is a big government imposing its will on religious liberties. If the Church ever revealed the particulars about who donates how much and on what it is spent, it would be because the big government forced them to do so. At that point, we'd have a lot more to worry about than the balance sheet of the Mormon church.

Mateo,

Well, we still don't agree on the unholy massive building thing. But I'm glad you're putting your money where your mouth is. I think that's great! I'm working on the micro-loan thing myself (Kiva). Amazing what a huge differnence a few dollars can make to the poor in these countries. I think its a much better investment to fund self sufficiency and economic growth than to just hand out food (which is necessary at times). I'm very, very proud of you for being so proactive!

"By the way, you never answered what your spin on the temple ceremony line.."

Well, I don't discuss things like that outside the temple, and you know that. I think we all have to understand the consequences of our actions - both sides of the coin - and I believe Satan is very real. If understanding that is intimidating, then so be it. But my faith is not based on fear, its based on love. Why would I want to live with someone I was afraid of for Eternity?? I want to live with God because I love Him, not because I fear. And I have felt His love in my life, as you know.

Neal

I just saw the other part of your post that was apparently cut off when I saw it before. I fully agree that we shouldn't NEED a separate missionary program. The members and their examples should be all the missionary program we need. People would flock to the Church instead of the other way around!

However, that's not the world we live in. The members (myself included) are sincere, but imperfect and fall prey to the distractions and harsh conditions of this world. If we were living the Gospel the way we should, we would dedicate the inverse of what we do now to worldly pursuits and careers (10%) and give the other 90% to the Lord in service to others. God is anxiously waiting to provide for our needs so we can do this, if we will only put faith in Him. The lunch is free, but work we must.

That was the vision that Joseph stated (many times) that he had for Zion, but the world gunned him down before he had a chance to help us fully realize it. The message of universal brotherhood and charity was so powerful that it scared them to think about it. They were so worried about what they stood to lose in the way of what they knew in terms of political and economic power (i.e. Satan's way of doing things through greed and "market forces") that they never saw that what was coming would be much greater. They thought Joseph was forcing something on them, when in fact they were mistaking the (sometimes misplaced) zealotry of people who were attempting to live a consecrated life in Zion for totalitarianism.

The "theocracy" (I hate that word now because its meaning has become so corrupted) they feared was simply what Adam had taught his posterity prior to Cain slaying Abel over some sheep. Share. Love. Teach. It's what "could have been" if one man had not made such a grave misjudgment.

thanks, IllinoisMormon

I'll need some harder stats than your words before I believe you about the comparative expense spent on houses of worship among churches. Rats, the books are closed.

Regarding your uplifting statement, I have the same question for you as I have asked Neal. What about "I have something to say regarding these people, if they do not walk up to every covenant entered into this day in this temple, they will be in my power".

Is that the uplifting part?

"And Then?",

Thanks for being direct and also for being magnanimous. 'Tis a rare things on blogs these days, even for me I'm afraid.

And then:

In spite of the hostility of your question, and the fact that you ignored my original request, I can tell you that I give a substantial additional % of my income to charity, in addition to the tithes I pay. I can't tell you exactly, because I still haven't done my taxes for '06! (I filed an extension) This doesn't include the time I spend outside of the Church working on charitable causes.

I can't answer for anyone else, and frankly I don't see what relevence your question has. I don't control the finances of the Church, so if you have a bone to pick, maybe you should call up the Brethren in SLC? Discounting the charitable activities the Church engages in is uncalled for. How much money you do or don't contribute has little to do with righteousness, so I'm cusrious as to why you think that's the "standard" we're waving around. The Church collectively and its members individually do much to help the poor, but it is not our sole responsibility - its everyones. Why do you think we are uncharitable?

Neal

Thanks for your response, IllinoisMormon. No, not baiting people for conflict's sake. Just seeking truth. It gets very tiresome when people try to shove their righteousness down our throats while they ignore the very basics of Christianity: e.g., 1 Corinthians 13; James 1:27; D&C 49:20; Moses 7:18. If LDS lived these principals, they would not need 60,000 missionaries.

Neal

I'm not ranting bro. Please don't discount me. Prior to a couple of years ago, I tithed...I more than tithed.

I spent a month in Kenya last summer, volunteer, my expense, building a capacity-building database for organizations combatting AIDS/HIV.

I give 18-20% percent of my income in developing an organization that explores microgranting. A system where members of the industrialized world can directly give microgrants to developing world families who have a plan and a will to achieve self-sufficiency. The project is in it's pilot phase. I plan to return often.

I live in a modest house well below my means, requiring my children to share rooms, shopping for clothing at SAVERS and the DI..all this,so that I can spend my resources on my brothers in need.

As I've stated repeatedly (evidence of not ranting), I applaud the present humanitarian missions of the church. I criticize because there is a deeper accountability that "in total" the brethren, the members...the church is not taking, because you build massively expensive buildings. They are unholy!

By the way, you never answered what your spin on the temple ceremony line "I have something to say regarding these people, if they do not walk up to every covenant entered into this day in this temple, will be in my power". How is that not intimidation? Does it frighten you to discuss it? Is you discipleship based on fear?

Thanks for your response, IllinoisMormon. No, not baiting people for conflict's sake. Just seeking truth.

Okay, "And Then?". Now you're just baiting people so you can create conflict. It's really none of your business what I donate personally, just like it's none of your business what I give as a fast offering or whether I pay a full tithe. I don't do it for that kind of Pharisaical gratification. I prefer to follow the example of the widow with her mite because that's the kind of giving that Christ taught was significant.

I'm tempted to tell of all the ways I DO donate directly, outside of the Church process, to needy individuals and causes. But I'll let it suffice to say "yes" to the question of whether I do. As I've found with every other disaffected Mormon or anti-Mormon I've debated with over the years, you'll only change the subject and move on to some other accusation anyways.

Neal, Illinois Mormon--

You both completely miss the point of my prior email. Don't presume that I know nothing about the church before you go off on some semantic tirade about the difference between "salary" and a very big "stipend," or start describing fast offerings for me. Next you'll start expounding on the mission fund, perpetual education fund, the old building fund, activity fees, etc, while you hold hands singing "Give Said the Little Stream" (or maybe you prefer the more current primary song "Follow the Prophet"?)

I'll repost my original message. Read it to the end. All the way to the end. Let's limit the discussion simply to Utah, if you want, where you can't spit without hitting an LDS church house. (And Neal, I'm not ignoring you. I donate a heckuva lot of my time and $. But I'm not the one waiving the standard of righteousness in my front yard to the world while people are starving in my back yard.)

My original message:

I've heard/read all the stats. Mormons donate a substantial amount of $$ to charity, and volunteer at a higher rate than others. Yada yada yada. But all of you Mormons on here answer me this: Exclude your tithing. How much do YOU donate DIRECTLY to the poor and needy? I don't want to hear about "the church does this, the church does that." Gee, the federal government does a heckuva lot more than the church, but I don't count my taxes as charitable deductions. Get off your sacred high horses and tell me what YOU personally donate to the poor and needy directly, not to a pool of funds that is used for building maintenance, GA salaries, etc. Also, and more importantly, tell me how many hours a week you DIRECTLY do work to help the poor and needy. I don't want to hear about your home teaching visits, your church service, etc. Tell me how many hours you specifically work with those in need. It's amazing to me that a people who spend so much time describing their righteousness don't recognize that there are many, many poor and needy right there in little ol' Utah. Read your scriptures. Zion doesn't just mean "one heart and one mind." Read on a bit... wait, what does it say? "And there were no poor among them." Perhaps you should cross reference that with D&C 49:20. Now tell me how righteous your religion is.

I can't believe what I am hearing. Some of the comments above are actually blaming the Mormons for being driven out of their homes and killed. This kind of blame the victim mentality hints at a deep bigotry against the Mormons that should make these people ashamed.

Mateo,

We believe that temples are special, holy places. Comparitively, though, the ones we build are much less extravagant than those of other churches (I'm comparing, not intending to degrade other faiths here). I do believe there is a balance.

Why any extravagance at all? Why not build temples the same as we do the regular church buildings? Or make regular church buildings into temples and have worship services outside or in our homes? Because God intends to lift us up. And he wants us to want to be lifted up. There needs to be something to inspire us to look above the earthly fray and desire something greater. Temples are a tiny and an infinitesimally insignificant symbol of the grandeur and glory that we believe God has, and intends for His children to have as well.

Eliot, hang on. I'm typing as fast as I can. I'm also at work, so I can't be here answering questions constantly. :)

Craig,

Testimony is an ongoing process. It's not a light switch. Yes, there are faith promoting stories that often are quoted or told about people having great, ecstatic experiences with "knowing in an instant", but my experience on my own part and observing others is that they are the exception rather than the norm. Yes, the vision of Joseph Smith was miraculous, spectacular, extraordinary. But we are also taught that God teaches line-upon-line, precept upon precept, by small and simple things. The same was taught to Elijah in the Old Testament. He heard a rushing wind, saw a great fire, experienced a great earthquake and the Lord wasn't in those, but was in the still, small voice.

That voice is not always waiting to answer our request for answers the minute we ask. I've known people for whom the answers came so gradually, that it was years before they knew. Brigham Young himself sought answers for two whole years before he knew the Book of Mormon was scripture. God teaches us on an individual level, and our individual needs may necessitate patience and persistence rather than immediate gratification, as the world would rather have it.

Personally, I didn't know for sure that the Book of Mormon and the Church was true until several weeks into the Missionary Training Center. I kept thinking of ways that it COULDN'T be true...Joseph Smith making things up, the leaders making things up, etc. But as I analyzed those doubts and pondered them, the more I realized that the simplest explanation for such a complex, yet beautiful work of scripture and religious thought was that it came from God. I still find it ironic that my entire family, way back to 1830, some of them having known the Prophet personally, were members of the Church...that I was RAISED in that same Church and family life, and yet I was finally getting the beginnings of a testimony as I was shipping out for missionary service.

I've had to work to maintain that testimony because the forces of the world try to distract me from what I know is important. But I do know that it's true. And not because I was forced or coerced. I had every expectation and intention of quitting being a missionary (and nearly did, several times, even in the field), but the Book of Mormon's message kept pulling me back to reality and continues to do so today.

Read it. All the way through. Then read it again. Don't substitute skepticism for a desire to know. The answers do come.

Mateo:

"The question is, WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH YOUR RESOURCES???"

One could ask the same of you. Will you go to the poor of these countries and give them the aid they need? Will you "sell your worldly possessions and give all that you have to the poor"? Will you give up your job and go there and live among them and help them? We have missionaries who do just that- not proselyting missionaries - missionaries who do only service; who only help the poor. They pay their own way - many give up retirement to do this. Some sell their homes or other possessions so they can serve. Are you willing to take action like these people do? Until you can answer yes, your words have no substance. Show us the proof that you are who you say we are not. You're just ranting, as all malcontents do.

Neal

Yeah, why won't any of you Mormoons answer that guy's question? Neal, Illinois Mormon? You eagerly jump all over everybody else. Why not answer this one?

>Neal, Illinois Mormon, others. Why is no one >answering this prior post? Are you afraid of >the truth?

>To Darren, Jake S, et al.

>So what do you do when you read, ask "with a sincere heart, with real intent," ponder it out in your mind...and then nothing happens? I know, hard to fathom. Then what? Can you allow that nothing may happen? Will you accept the veridicality of my spiritual experience (or lack thereof), just as you are asking us to accept the veridicality of yours?

thanks, Neal

I never wrote about the books of other churches, why are you? And I wasn't trying to expose a conspiracy. If other churches close their books, good for them. Try to stay on track, bro. I asked about the proportion of the church's wealth spent on humanitarian. I applaud the humanitarian work that goes on, observe the expense for temples and point out that the humanitarian portion could be much, much more.

You may esteem that temples are necessary, I'm not disputing. Dig a freaking hole and pitch a tent. Rescue a unused warehouse. The extravagance of the temples is unholy and ungodly.

I disagree that GBH, JF and TM love gays. I observe that they thinly veil violent and contemptuous hearts with cheap words. Neither of us know what they really think...moot point. The policy is offensive and hateful, not defensive as you suggest.

Craig,

Yes, I can accept that. A lot of it depends on where the individual is spiritually when they start that journey. And sometimes we don't get answers to our prayers right away. I know people who did not get an answer the first time, but did later on. Its a very individual thing. Just because you didn't get the answer I was hoping you'd get doesn't mean you can't get it or you won't ever get it. But I'm not going to judge you for it. I would respect you for trying, though.

I'm a convert to the Church. Most of my extended family aren't members. Half of my friends are not members. Some will never be interested in what I believe. That doesn't bother me - they're still my friends and family, and I'm still theirs.

Conversion is a very indivdual thing. No person can convert you - only the Holy Ghost can give you a testimony. Read I Corithinans chapter 2 for really great insight into this subject.

Neal

DGJ:

You declare:

"May I just remind you that those individuals decided to join the church, and in doing that, they also showed that they wanted to follow the gospel or Christ's precepts and commandments PRIOR to baptism and PRIOR to every covenant they made."

Really a child decides to join the Mormon cult at what age? Children don't join the Mormon cult or the christian cult for that matter...they are indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing that crap by their parents.

Give me a break. Must be sad to be so intellectually inferior that you have to believe in a mystical god/monster who's never been seen even once in order to get through life and face your inevitable permanent death.

We don't teach our children (and there are 5, 3 adopted, 2 by surrogacy) to hate your cult like the hate and intolerance you people spew like a broken sewer. We teach them to pity you for your failings as Americans and your bigotry.

Greg

Thank you to all who have posted on this site.

It has taken much time to read each of the comments posted so far. It is a great insight to the opions of all so far. To clarify, \ the purpose that I think we all have is to ask questions, provide answers and gain understanding of one another. I especially enjoyed reading the response of John D the First to Maurine Beck and her response in return. Some great things to think about.

In going forward I would like to propose those with questions who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to ask them directly. Anything that you have been told that you do not like or have questions about the Church, please post things that concern you on this board. In return, those who are members of The Church, please be respectful and informative and direct others where they can find the accurate answers they are looking for. This forum is a great opportunity to expel myths and understand one another better.

Neal, Illinois Mormon, others. Why is no one answering this prior post? Are you afraid of the truth?

To Darren, Jake S, et al.

So what do you do when you read, ask "with a sincere heart, with real intent," ponder it out in your mind...and then nothing happens? I know, hard to fathom. Then what? Can you allow that nothing may happen? Will you accept the veridicality of my spiritual experience (or lack thereof), just as you are asking us to accept the veridicality of yours?

Eric,

I am certainly not a christian, never have been, never will be. I have no need to believe in a god/monster in order to get through the day.

Your cult is determined to squelch social and intellectual progress in our nation. It is nothing but a crutch for the weak and a tool for the ruthless.

My community, the Gay community, is just another segment of society that you people have decided to target. In case you are completely unaware, as you seem to be, christians have a history of targeting groups of their fellow humans who are different in their beliefs, race, gender on and on and on. Target them for violence, hatred, intolerance and prejudice. It has a jaded history at best.

Your superstitious cult is the enemy of my community, just as it has been the enemies of other groups of people in the past.

Fortunately I am as much of an American as you are. The constitution of this nation was meant to protect all American's rights. Mine included.

I have no reason to respect you for being a christian, it's a choice, you're not born that way.

Greg

I have read several comments claiming that the church was harsh on people who were gay or were excommunicated and therefore, the church was unchristlike. May I just remind you that those individuals decided to join the church, and in doing that, they also showed that they wanted to follow the gospel or Christ's precepts and commandments PRIOR to baptism and PRIOR to every covenant they made. They had their free agency to accept or reject. Everyone in the LDS religion is accountable for his/her actions.

When Christ drove out the moneychangers...was He being unchristlike? or were the moneychangrs desecrating the temple and therefore, not living up to the standards of the gospel. Christ doesn't want us to be less then we can be He wants us to emulate Him. Isn't that why He came here to the earth in the first place...to show us the way?

When I was a college student I was required to keep a certain GPA. If I didn't, I would be expelled. A person who feels they should not be subjected to rules would say, "how dare the university punish you" But doesn't the university have the right? Isn't that just!? Yes, because I agreed to the bylaws PRIOR to enrollment. The church has every right to enforce their policies....because it is Christ like. They never say, don't come back. They say, repent and then come back. Christ wants you back into his fold but only if YOU want to. Many feel it is too hard of a thing to do and so they don't return but it isn't because no one is stopping them. The greatest gift we can give to Christ is our will. Meaning, we give ourselves over to Him because he knows what is best for us. He does have more insight into our lives then we do.

In regards to the PBS documentary, unfortunately, all history is open for debate and never will there be an agreement in regards to the history of man.

However, If Helen Whitney wanted to "blow away" the misconceptions of the church she did so in poor, sketchy, undefined blurbs. She mentioned the Plan of Salvation once but never expanded on it. How did Ms. Whitney feel that this was not important, if she truly did her research? If she wanted to tell the world what we believe in she could have used the Articles of Faith as an outline and speak about each principle. In this film I did not see the gospel as I have been taught and believe. Whitney missed our testimonies, the goodness of its members, the Relief Society and the Priesthood. I was disappointed and I am so tired of non or ex-mormons speaking for the church.

And Then:

"I've heard/read all the stats. Mormons donate a substantial amount of $$ to charity, and volunteer at a higher rate than others. Yada yada yada. But all of you Mormons on here answer me this: Exclude your tithing. How much do YOU donate DIRECTLY to the poor and needy? I don't want to hear about "the church does this, the church does that." Gee, the federal government does a heckuva lot more than the church, but I don't count my taxes as charitable deductions. Get off your sacred high horses and tell me what YOU personally donate to the poor and needy directly, not to a pool of funds that is used for building maintenance, GA salaries, etc. "

Why don't we put the shoe on the other foot? What do YOU dontate directly to the poor? I want to hear that first, since you seem to be on YOUR sacred high-horse!

Neal

Thanks, thankful

You cleared up the biblical justification for temple extravagance.

It still doesn't make it right!

JC, Elohim, Lucifer...the whole bunch are pieces of data. Something you have to have faith in.

You don't have to have faith that that there are over a million brothers and sisters living like non-free range chickens in a slum called Kibera, Kenya (as one among tens of thousands of examples). You can go there and see it!

The question is, WHAT WILL YOU DO WITH YOUR RESOURCES???

Will you continue to lock them up in tithes that build extravagance for the praise of a piece of DATA?

Every fiber of my being screamed the answer THE IDEOLOGY IS A HOAX! Like the poster asks, then what?

"And Then?",

I think you might be one of the folks that I was talking about when I said that people criticize the LDS church without trying to understand us. Either that or you genuinely don't understand the difference between tithing and fast offerings.

Tithing indeed goes to the church for its "overhead". General Authorities don't have "salaries", which implies some kind of merit-based bonus and raise system. They receive a flat stipend for living expenses and the expenses incidental to their callings. That's it. No 401k or retirement or golden parachute.

Fast offerings are what people give to the poor, typically on the first Sunday of the month. We fast for a period of 24 hours and then donate _at the very least_ what we would have spent for food during that 24 hours. However, most people follow the First Presidency's counsel to give substantially more than that because needs are so great inside and outside of the Church. The richer you are, the more you're encouraged to give as your fast offering. And, having served twice as a financial clerk, I can tell you that the rich do indeed give generously, despite everyone's pet theory that you can't be rich and generous at the same time. Even more astounding is that, as a percentage of their income, the poor members still tend to give more than they can afford.

100% of he money raised via fast offerings goes to help people inside the Church as well as out. Not a penny of it goes anywhere else. It is carefully monitored by an independent auditing committee that goes right down to the Stake and Ward levels. I know because we just finished an audit and they were THOROUGH and INSISTENT that everything be done on the level. Much more than these corporations that give only to elevate their branding and notoriety, or simply to avoid tax consequences.

There are specific humanitarian and education funds that people donate to on a regular basis. The success of those funds is apparent in the regular news stories you can find anywhere on the Web that detail our efforts to reach out to the afflicted.

Anything else you'd like to know?

I'll be here.

Julia,

Mormon's do believe fundamentally that Christ is part of the bibilical Trinity, or Godhead, it's the creedal Trinity, determined in Nicene, we don't agree with.
Rather than your observation of Utah having the highest rates of drug and alchohol abuse, teen pregnancy, suicide, and HS dropouts, Utah, in fact, is among the lowest in the U.S. in those categories. Spousal abuse and divorce are also among the lowest. You can go to the following site for more information:
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html
I'm glad you found Christ, that's obviously been a great blessing for you.

I am surprised at the misinformation people believe to be true. You would have to know nothing about Mormonism to believe they are not Christians. You would have to know nothing about Mormonism to believe they do not fully obey laws. Where do the people saying this get their misinformation? It's amazing that such ignorance is still possible. A quick search on the internet regarding the Mormon's beliefs would dispell that kind of ignorance. Please do some research before relaying your uninformed opinion.

Mateo:

Are the books of ANY Church "open" as you suggest? I hardly think so. So let's not make that some sort of evil conspiracy. But its easy for anyone to see the results of the activities of the Church and their welfare system, humanitraian aid, etc. which is indeed substantial and noted the world over. As a Stake Clerk I have persoanlly seen how money is handled in the Church and have no doubts is is done so thoughtfully and appropriately.

Temples are necessary if you believe in Eternal families, baptism for the dead, etc. They are not extravagant by any means. If you want to see extravagance, visit the Vatican. You would be better served attacking the coprporate gluttons of America whose wealth and excess are ovious and flaunted.

You can have your negative opinions of the Church, and I can have my positive ones. The Bretheren do care about Gay people, but they take a stand when issues come to the forefront that threaten the family. I think if the issue was only about people getting healthcare there wouldn't be a problem. Redefining what marriage is is a problem for many people, and not just the LDS Church.

Neal

I've heard/read all the stats. Mormons donate a substantial amount of $$ to charity, and volunteer at a higher rate than others. Yada yada yada. But all of you Mormons on here answer me this: Exclude your tithing. How much do YOU donate DIRECTLY to the poor and needy? I don't want to hear about "the church does this, the church does that." Gee, the federal government does a heckuva lot more than the church, but I don't count my taxes as charitable deductions. Get off your sacred high horses and tell me what YOU personally donate to the poor and needy directly, not to a pool of funds that is used for building maintenance, GA salaries, etc. Also, and more importantly, tell me how many hours a week you DIRECTLY do work to help the poor and needy. I don't want to hear about your home teaching visits, your church service, etc. Tell me how many hours you specifically work with those in need. It's amazing to me that a people who spend so much time describing their righteousness don't recognize that there are many, many poor and needy right there in little ol' Utah. Read your scriptures. Zion doesn't just mean "one heart and one mind." Read on a bit... wait, what does it say? "And there were no poor among them." Perhaps you should cross reference that with D&C 49:20. Now tell me how righteous your religion is.

My mother-in-law is not LDS, can't abide organized religion, but she's one of the staunchest supporters of our faith because she sees the affect it has on our lives and how the Church teaches us to love and respect others despite our differences on moral issues of the day. When people asked her, after my wife and I got engaged, how many wives her new son-in-law would have, she jokingly told them "One, if he knows what's good for him." and then proceeded to explain why the idea they had was wrong and that "every religion looks weird from the outside."

I enjoyed the PBS documentary, though I think they could have focused a bit more on how "every religion looks weird from the outside".

Whenever people in the media criticize the LDS church, or try to foist on the masses some political statement about how the Mormons are bigoted, or too rich, or corrupt, or sex-crazed, or whatever, I always want to ask, "So, when was the last time you actually walked into a Mormon chapel, sat down, and watched them worship, pray, and teach each other...for the entire 3 hours? Have you actually read any of the books they read? Have you gone to their activities? Their food storage warehouses? Their charity and service projects? Have you even _looked_ for something good, or were to too busy pursuing the sensational so as to sell your story?"

Mormonism is quickly becoming the only religion people seem to be able to form an opinion about without doing these simple things.

I work in a company that deals with the education and media industries. Every day I'm lambasted by one opinion or another talking about how American school kids are not being taught empirical discovery methods to explore their world. That they're being taught to accept everything on "faith", and it's all the fault of those religious nuts.

So, how about a little reciprocity, then? Why not do a little "anthropology" experiment and come and see for oneself first-hand what it is we believe and do? Before people like Ken Woodward go spouting off their bigotry in the New York Times...

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/Transcript_Page.aspx?ContentGuid=52ee6f96-530f-45b9-87c8-835409bffa1c&comments=true

HH: Okay, so…and have you ever been inside one of the temples before they were consecrated?

KW: Nope. Well, I can’t tell you. You know, I would have done that less out of curiosity than out of duty.

HH: Okay.

KW: The Mormons I would tend to meet with would tend to be journalists and academics. I mean, I used to go…are you familiar with the Sunstone, the Mormon ["intellectual"] magazine?

HH: Yes.

KW: All right.

HH: And with Meridian.

KW: All right. I’ve addressed their conference a couple of times, so you can get a different kind of Mormon at those places.

...then how about actually encountering Mormonism on its own terms, the way the common, everyday person lives it today?

Just an idea.

Rusty -

Thanks for a well-thought post. You seem like a level-headed fellow with whom one could have a lively & enlightening discussion. Thank you for your open mind. Maybe more creedence will be given to someone outside the Mormon faith.

You touched on something all "good" Mormons know & practice - look for good in all people & religions, & find common ground on which to base friendship & understanding. We are not out to CONVERT the world. "Faithful Mormons" - the ones who "get it" - try to LIVE our religion, not force it on others or criticize others' religious beliefs. (I find is strange that people go to other religions/anti-LDS groups to learn about the LDS church - wouldn't it be helpful to go to the source? If I want to learn about the Japanese culture, would I ask the Chinese?) If others are drawn to our religion or have questions, we share our convictions, but allow all to choose for THEMSELVES.

Christ won't force us to heaven - He only waits to open the door for us when we come to Him.

Anonymous:
Dito to what Johnny G. said. I would also like to add that we don't just send aid, we also perform many services, for example: volunteers physically helping to clean up the mess Katrina left behind.
I also heard on the local news recently that they have found some human remains of some of the warriors from the Book of Mormon times.
One more thing Anonymous, please go to mormon.org and click on 'find info,' and you will have many of your misconceptions corrected.

Hi Mateo,

Temples are built and dedicated to the Lord. On each temple is inscribed "Holiness to the Lord" and "House of the Lord". We assert that the sacred work performed therein is His and enables the human family to come back and live with him. Mark 14: 3-6 reads

3 ¶ And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.

4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?

5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

To Darren, Jake S, et al.

So what do you do when you read, ask "with a sincere heart, with real intent," ponder it out in your mind...and then nothing happens? I know, hard to fathom. Then what? Can you allow that nothing may happen? Will you accept the veridicality of my spiritual experience (or lack thereof), just as you are asking us to accept the veridicality of yours?

I am non-Mormon who has done some research into this religion having read "Under the Banner of Heaven" and having seen portions of the series on PBS. I am struck by several observations regarding this American religion.
Mormons do have a history of persecution which is well documented. It is an unfortunate fact, that even in America which was founded on the principle of religious freedom; several religious groups have been met with hostility or even violence. I think our founding fathers would feel dismayed that any group of people can suffer for their religious beliefs.
Any group of people, dedicated to leading lives guided by their faith, should be an inspiration to us all even if we find some of their underlying beliefs to be unusual or misdirected.
Mormonism continues to grow at a spectacular rate indicating that many people outside of the faith are drawn to its ideas. This steady growth rate indicates that not only does Mormonism nourish its adherents but that the ideas implicit in the religion appeal to a great many Americans and others throughout the world.

I must admit to being very disappointed with the recent PBS program "The Mormons." I, too, was shocked to hear the Prophet Joseph Smith called our Alpha and Omega. Surely God and Jesus Christ are the only First and Last, Beginning and End we recognize. We reverence the Prophet Joseph as we reverence all of God's Prophets from all ages. We worship God and Jesus Christ.

To hear the retelling of the destruction of the printing press in Illinois cast in such slanted terms without the historical precedent of the destruction of our own printing press by the mob in Missouri is to tell far worse than a half-truth. Recognition is given to the limitations of a four-hour program when dealing with over 250 years of history but there is need for some balance in the report.

The comments leading the audience to believe that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are somehow ashamed of the practice of polygamy during its decades of authorized practice is grossly inaccurate. The men and women who were called by God to build the Kingdom by obedience to that very difficult principle were great and decent people, not lascivious and lecherous as the program would have led us to believe. Less than 1% of the worthy men in the church were asked to practice this principle and it wasn't illegal anywhere in the world, much less in the United States. Most of the early persecution of the Church members came, not from their practice of polygamy, but from the jealousy that was engendered by blossoming financially in a righteous, moral, cohesive environment while being surrounded by an otherwise backward, uneducated, and impoverished populace. The very unity that allowed this financial growth and community stability also brought political strength, which further frightened the "outside" populace.

Joseph Smith didn't marry other men's wives, unless it was a divorced or widowed woman, as my own Great-great grandfather did. One must remember that the frontier of America and the mid-19th Century provided no protection for a woman unless she had a husband or father. She was vulnerable and had little means to provide for herself or any offspring. My G.G. grandfather married 3 other women after my G.G. grandmother. He was fairly elderly at the time and these women were divorced or widowed and two were well past prime. These were marriages of protection. In one case one of the women had younger children and she was escaping a very violent and abusive 1st marriage. The children actually requested and were granted adoption by my G.G. grandfather because of the love and respect they had for him. He had no offspring from any of these polygamist unions, only his first marriage. That certainly wasn't the case in all of my polygamist ancestors' unions but these marriages weren't about insatiable sexual drives. They were about building a good and decent and numerous posterity and the protection of a strong family.

My final comment is addressed to the insinuation that members of the church might like to forget the origin of the restoration of the Church through the visions of the boy-Prophet Joseph Smith. We glory in the belief that all righteous men and women have the right to personal revelation from God. My belief in Joseph Smith's revelations are supported by my own answers to prayer through personal revelation. Though I have not seen God or Jesus Christ or even an angel, I have heard the Savior's voice through the still, small voice of the Spirit in my heart and I know that God lives, that Jesus Christ is my Savior, and that the Holy Ghost witnesses to all who will enquire with a righteous intent as to the truth of these things.

Greg

I am not sure from your post if you are Christian or not. But if you are, you are not living the teachings of your religion.

Get out your bible, blow off the dust, and turn to Romans Chapter 1. Start with verse 18 and go to the end of the chapter (that is to verse 32). Please pay attention to verse 27.

How un-Christian of you to tell others how to live when you are not living your religion yourself. If you are Christian.

I am a Christian, and proud of it. I try my best to live my religion, even as imperfect as I am. Why not try it yourself?

Eric

Julia--

Not a Mormon apologist, but I do like to keep facts straight. As one who grew up in Utah for a number of years, I know a little about Utah and the Mormons, even though I may disagree with them on much. I'm confused by your comment that "Their fundamental belief that Jesus is not a part of the Biblical Trinity will forever separate them from Christianity." Are you referring simply to the fact that Mormons believe that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate? (For example in Luke 3:22 Christ is in the water being baptized, the Holy Spirit descends from the heaven like a dove, and a voice from heaven, presumably God the Father, says "You are my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." I guess I have a hard time conceptualizing why a unitary God would go to all that trouble and why God would talk to himself like that if they are all the same person; but what do I know.) Other than that, all the Mormons I know believe in the holy trinity of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, though they call it by a different name (don't remember).

Also, I was in the Utah schools approx 20 years ago as well. Your memory may be fading, as I know mine is. Seminary grades are NOT included on school transcripts. Check out the Utah ACLU's website at http://www.acluutah.org/releasetime.htm for a good explanation of how/why Utah mormons can do seminary.

Cheers!

Got a question!

If Jesus meant to set up another church, why are the faiths different? Why are the scriptures different? Why are the meanings different?

If Jesus really did want to set up His church in a different place, don't you think that they'd at least have the same guidelines and path to Heaven? Just a thought...........It's like a bad game of "telephone"

For those who don't believe, read the Book Of Mormon with the intent to find out if it's true, ponder over it, and Pray!! You'll find out just like the rest of us have that it's true. God will tell you, by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true. The book is free, www.lds.org, so all it costs you is your time to read and study. You'll find out it's true. Invest your time, because it's worth it.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I know Jesus Christ is my savior. I know he established HIS church upon the earth through a prophet in our time just as he established his church in the times of the Bible. He organized the church with prophets, apostles, etc. He sent missionaries to bring others to his fold and he established his priesthood. He taught love and acceptance of people and urged against practices that would harm others or one's self spiritually or temporally. He invited all to come to HIM to learn his teachings.

Just as in times of old he reveals his words to his servants the prophets. They guide the church in a tumultuous time by those words just as prophets guided the people during tumultuous Bible times.

The living prophet of today is Gordon B. Hinkley, successor to prophets Moses, Isaiah, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Moroni, etc. The Lord continues to guide his church and his people as he always has - through his servants the prophets.

I also extend the gentle challenge to investigate the beliefs of the church. You'll find they are inline with Bible teachings. Read the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Pray about it. Learn the views of the church, past and present. Talk with members (imperfect people growing from Christ's great teachings) and leaders about blessings we receive by being members. Have missionaries help answer some of your questions. Listen to the messages of the prophets, apostles, and other leaders of the church during one of the church's general conferences broadcast throughout the world. I think you will find it refreshing to hear the wholesome teachings of Christ and how wonderfully they will impact your life and the lives of those in your family for good.

Neal

First of all, you can't track percentages when the accounting books are closed. What proportion of the church's wealth goes to humanitarian efforts? You might want to know that before you call it "marvelous". And you will never know it because the books are closed. Do you think Frontline was lying about that?

The extravagance of temples are necessary? C'mon bro. Water is necessary, antibiotics are necessary, food is necessary.

Spin "he that is not tithed will be burned at my coming."

Spin "I have something to say regarding these people, if they do not walk up to every covenant entered into this day in this temple, they will be my power."

How is it not conformity through a doctrine of fear and inadequacy?

To your defense...all major religions use fear ultimately, so it's not uniquely Mormon. But then I was raised to believe Mormonism had something more to offer. Mormonism doesn't.

You may say your experience was positive and you're sincere about it. My original statement allows and admires that. I'll even grant you that Mormons are good...family, community, supporting others in a time of need (yes, they do that too, just not nearly aggressively enough for me--have you ever studied the lives of Adventists?). All to be applauded. Who doesn't want that?

The ideology, Mormonism is flawed, a doctrine of propagation more than true Christlike love.

And for the record, I wasn't talking about my genitalia specifically, I was talking about the first presidency's nationwide message to support a specifically antigay Constitutional Admendment. Perhaps it's just that Brothers Hinckley, Faust and Monson have never realized how hard it is for gay couples to get health benefits. Perhaps they just don't care. What do you think?

The title page of the Book of Mormon states that its purpose is "to convince Jews and Gentiles that Jesus is the Christ." Nephi, a B of M prophet said, "we talk of Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." (2 Nephi 25:26) The name of Christ appears more often in the Book of Mormon than it does in the entire Bible. It doesn't sound to me like Mormons are Christian in name only or that Joseph Smith is seen as their savior.

For accurate information regarding what has and has not been found in the archaeological record, check out the Maxwell Institute for Religious Studies website at the following link: archeolighttp://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

By the way, no evidence has ever been found proving that there was an exodus as spoken of extensively in the Bible. Does this shake your faith?

Mormons do give extensively to various charities, as do many other churches. They do not brag about it, but if they didn't let people like you know about it, you would probably criticize them for hoarding all their money!

The money they have comes from the fact that their people give a tenth of their income to the church, and none of this income goes toward paying its ministry. They also make lots of good investments, including the new downtown Salt Lake development you referred to. Christ taught a parable about what happens when you don't invest your talents (money) wisely, so I'm glad they follow that advice to maximize the good they can do in the world.

Mormons are taught to love all people and to respect their religions. They are also taught that there is "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism," and that not all who say "Lord, Lord" will be accepted by him. Christ taught that the way back to him is "straight and narrow." Does this mean that even he may not be as accepting of all religious beliefs as you would like him to be? A religion is an abomination to God to the extent that it "teaches for doctrine the precepts of men." This does not mean that the people are an abomination, just their false beliefs.

I am so glad to see the many comments coming in about The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. There is much to study. There is much to ponder. For those who are honest in their hearts, minds, and wills; for those who truly seek truth; for those who can look outside of themselves and their selfcenteredness; for those who pay attention to the promptings of the spirit (or that small voice within each of us); for those who have eyes to see & ears to hear - this information will be of great value. There are 3 questions that all of us have a need to answer. Where did I begin to be? Why am I here? What will happen to me when I die - where will my exixtence take me? People of science and of worldly ways have searched for answers to these questions for 1000's of years. People of faith have found much to answer these questions. The Creator of it all has these answers. He wants us to have them. He has provided a way to find them. It is from Him directly. All we have to do is ask!!! If people ask and are sincere in their hearts, they will find the asnwers. God does not change His plan nor his answers to these questions. In His dealings with this earth and His children upon it, he has provided individuals throughout time who help, teach, and lead His children to truth. He wants His children to come back to Him. Search, ponder, and speak to Him. Ask!!
I walked this path, and continue to do so without disappointment and with constant watchfulness. Also, with constant effort. I was not born a member of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints, but I searched for God. There were many ideas studied and explored and finally I stopped to listen. I heard Him in my heart and He led me to my answers. I did find the LDS church. It did not find me. But the fullness of it's teachings about Jesus Christ His love for me and His plan found me...I wake up each day thankful for this concern, this Heavenly concern for me...

Patrick,

If what you say about "killing law-abiding travelers for no known reason in history, and racism against Black American's" is a reason to bash Mormons today, what should be said of the unspeakable atrocities condoned & directed by Catholics during the Crusades, or the way indiginous peoples were forced to "convert" to Catholicism by zealous priests? Should we take a look at the religious persuasion of the whites in the South involved in the KKK, lynchings & discrimination (in the past & today)?

I am a Christian - I believe in God, the Father, & in Jesus Christ, His Son. The Bible & the Book of Mormon teach me to love God & give service to my brothers & sisters of the world. You can judge my committment to my faith by my words & actions. I am not perfect, but trying. Get to know me & my family, & you will have a better understanding of my religion. But as in any religion, there are bad seeds... Just as I don't judge Islam by the actions of a few, please don't judge my religion by the actions of a few who weren't living the true tenets of the Church.

Anyone who believes a con-man found a set of golden tablets un upstate New York and was directed by an angel from God to rebury them and tell no one where they were is simply delusional. These people were persecuted everywhere they went, even by people who initially had no grudge against them, and when they got to Utah, their divine leader didn't even realize the lake he was settling by was salt water. Although it was by hard work and faith they made the desert bloom, the formerly persectued became the persecutors. They dressed up as Indians and attacked a wagon train, they pretty much got rid of all Mormon opposition in the state and they treated interlopers in the beginning as enemies. To this day you cannot enter a Mormon church for a wedding if you are a non-believer, whether you are a close relative or not. I would also like to point out that Idaho and Utah have high rates of teen pregnancy, allow the faithful to sell beer, wine and coffee to non-believers while not using it themselves, and while I respect their sense of community to a certain degree, they can be harsh on those family members who have the temerity to disagree with them. To me, these qualities make them "mainstream". They are like any other religion. Their faith is their guide and if you point out incosistencies in their beliefs, they will not give you the same tolerance for your beliefs they expect you to give theirs. Also, one must remember, this is the religion who said black people could only enter heaven as slaves and Indians are the lost tribes of Israel (debunked by DNA testing). To examine this religion carefully one must look beyond the surface and explore the religious tenents. This may, to some, set the Mormons apart as non-mainstream, however, they are just as delusional as anyone else who believes we should literally live by rules which have been twisted and manipulated by mankind for their own glory for thousands of years

These spurious comments on Mormonism are evidence of ignorance of the truth. I agree with the posters who advise that people read the book and find out for themselves if the Church is true or not. As a life-long member, I can assure you, the Church is true. Not all members, being the humans we are, always live up to the standard of truth that the doctrine speaks to, but nonetheless the doctrine is real, and has been witnessed through the Spirit by members everywhere.

Greg:

"My partner was raised Mormon and suffered immensely at the hands of this cult. They treat their Gay kids like garbage, dumping them onto the streets and "ex-communicating" them. My partner was shunned and dumped into the foster care system when he was 15. Some christians huh? Their treatment of these teens is so severe and deplorable that it has been featured in several documentaries."

My heart goes out to your partner, but as a homosexual Mormon I can tell you that his experience is not universal. Nor is it limited to the LDS Church. Homosexuals are still the most feared, persecuted and shunned minority in society. Persecution is found at all levels and in all religions and groups. This is slowly changing. The LDS Church recently published statements you may find interesting that outline our beliefs on conduct and doctrine related to homosexuality. They are not what your partner experienced.

http://www.lds.org/ldsnewsroom

look for the article on Same Gender Attraction.

Neal

As a devout evangelical Christian, I owe my salvation to Utah - without its intense sociological pressure I might never have found Truth. With accurate knowledge of the LDS doctrine (which few LDS members actually possess) and a solid knowledge of the Bible, I can definitively say that Mormonism as it now defines itself will NEVER be considered a mainstream "Christian" denomination. Their fundamental belief that Jesus is not a part of the Biblical Trinity will forever separate them from Christianity, over and above their many doctrinal practices and rituals that are inconsistent with God's instruction. If they decide to alter their doctrine to follow God's ways, it is possible, but that would reverse the teaching of more than a century, and would interfere with the business practices of the church (Personally, I find it hard to imagine a multi billion dollar corporation such as the LDS church suddenly taking a vow of poverty).

How did I acquire this knowledge? I moved to Logan, Utah with my family when I was 13 - a non-Mormon in the extremely repressive Cache Valley community, and I will never fully recover from the pressure of that society on my adolescent psyche. I felt as though I wore the Scarlet Letter, the Star of David on my chest everywhere I went. It was common knowledge that we were not Mormon - how could they NOT know, when we were the only family in our River Heights neighborhood who did not attend ward meetings? When we were the only family who (horror of horrors) dared to mow the lawn on Sunday? We drank coffee, my parents smoked...the list of the things that made me "different" is too long to detail here. Suffice it to say that I woke up at 5 a.m. every school morning to wash my clothes (including my snow boots and ski jacket...every day) in order to remove the smell of cigarette smoke so that someone would let me sit next to them on the school bus without ridicule. I was one of two students in my 1500 student High School who did not attend Seminary classes. I could never figure out how they managed to overcome the federal separation of church and state laws in order to allow school credit for a CLEARLY religious and exclusionary "elective" course. An elective that was an automatic GPA bonus which I could not enjoy.

I don't mean to dwell in a land of self pity - this all occurred over twenty years ago now, but the scar tissue I still carry is obvious. How does this relate to the original theme? Because without this subliminal persecution, I would never have been drawn to Truth. I was not raised in a religious home, when I asked my parents what religion we were when I was 8 years old, my mom said "Protestant". I had never heard of that, and she couldn't explain it except to say it meant we weren't Catholic.

However, even with no knowledge of religion or God, it was very clear to me that LDS beliefs did not "work". The statistics of high school dropout rates, teen pregnancy, suicide, and drug and alcohol abuse were all higher in Utah than any other state. A religion that promoted family values could not maintain them. Divorce and spousal abuse were also prevalent, at least as common as in a diversified society. I decided when I was a sophomore in high school that I would not give in to the pressure to convert, but instead I would research their religion to see what it was about, to see why it inspired such cult-like devotion. So, I did. And in so doing, I stumbled on many comparisons between Christianity and Mormonism, which all piqued my interest in the alternative. On review of the texts, tt was SO obvious that the LDS tenets laid out in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenant, and the Pearl of Great Price were born of human thought and that Biblical Christianity was divine, so I knew that I had no choice. I became a Christian, and while I struggled in my faith throughout high school, (I even became one of Utah's statistics, dropping out of school in my senior year) it is abundantly clear that only God could have gotten me through that journey "in the valley of the shadow of death".

It's my sincere hope and prayer that the leaders of the LDS faith would re-visit their doctrine, that they would clearly examine the inconsistencies and inadequacies in their Quad of books and would decide to finally devote their obvious devotion to the Truth of God's power and grace. To be called out of darkness into His marvelous light, as is God's wish for all of us.

Settle down NEAL. Enjoy your beliefs and let others enjoy theirs....you can argue all you want but beliefs are beliefs and they are welcome to express and share theirs, as are you. But each comment followed by you rebuttals get old.

To each his own. Enjoy life and the country we live in. I would hate to live in the east, were there is not much tollerance of different ideas, thoughts, beliefs and culture.

"After killing law-abiding travelers for no known reason in history, and racism against Black American's, where is the law-abiding citizenry?"

How many KKK members were Southern Baptists, Church of Christ, Methodists or Presbeterians? Can we trust them after they butchered thousands of Black Americans in the South? Where is the law-abiding citizenry? What about those who slaughtered hundreds of Mormons in Missouri and Illinois? Where is the law abiding citizenry?

Don't project the actions of a few people in an isolated incident onto a whole people and culture.

Neal

Mormons are certainly not mainstream, tolerant or any of the other things I see splashed in the comments about.

My partner was raised Mormon and suffered immensely at the hands of this cult. They treat their Gay kids like garbage, dumping them onto the streets and "ex-communicating" them. My partner was shunned and dumped into the foster care system when he was 15. Some christians huh? Their treatment of these teens is so severe and deplorable that it has been featured in several documentaries.

Mormons are just another branch of the christian cult which is mainly populated by superstitious twits who continually use their cult to promote hate and intolerance.

Religious people of all walks need to realize that as an American citizen your religious rights end where my civil rights begin.

If you want to believe in all that hocus pocus heavenly mumbo jumbo fine. Keep it to yourself as some of us actually paid attention in science class.

Candie,

"I would not invite them to my parties."

If your crass, judgemental, and bigoted remarks are any indication of how you treat others, they probably wouldn't want to come to your parites in the first place.

Neal

Mr. Dickey, Thanks for a thoughtful comment and interesting story. Mormon critics will, of course, say Burton was somehow deceived. However, he was the one with the smarts to find out for himself instead of relying on all of the criticizers.

The PBS special did give some information but was in no way comprehensive. I say: what's so wrong with a religion that helps bad men/women become good and good men/women to become better by having faith in and following the teachings of Jesus Christ found therein.

You are right, we don't really care if we become mainstream. Jesus Christ wasn't considered mainstream either, and I seem to remember reading some in the Bible claiming he was "full of devils" and was a blasphemer for his teachings. Many were threatened by his goodness and followers. With his crucifixion, his teachings didn't die, even after thousands of years.

As Joseph Smith has said: “The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done” (History of the Church, 4:540).

Mateo,

"I won’t be back until morality ceases to be defined by what I do with my genitalia and is replaced by what I do with my resources. When spirituality is relieving human suffering, not forcing myself to feel sorrow for Christ’s suffering. When the independent variable becomes love, yeah that’s it, prove to me that I am loved and safe, then watch what my behavior becomes. "

Your bitterness is quite evident.

Morality has always had a much broader defnition than sexual conduct. Spirituality already encompases relieving human suffering, and it involves gratitude for Christ's suffering, not
sorrow over it. Feeling loved and safe is as dependant on you as it is on others. You're just asking for freedom from personal responsibility here, when in fact Salvation is the most personal of responsibilities.

And to clarify, Mormons believe in God's unconditional love for everyone. That is not something that can be earned. How we live our lives determines the ultimate reward we recieve, but the love of God for each of his Children is absolute and unconditional.

The LDS Church has a marvelous track record of charitable giving. Temples and other places of worship are necessary physical extensions of the activities of the Church. In general they are most utilitarian and economical. The Church also has no paid ministry, which you failed to mention, and allows many more funds to be used for the common welfare. So, the Church does its fair share to relieve suffering and poverty and to use the sacred funds of the Church for the good of people everywhere. You would be hard pressed to find a better track record.

Neal

Anonymous,

Please share why you believe members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to not be Christians.

As a member of the LDS Church I do not believe my salvation lies in worshipping Joseph Smith the same way a Catholic who recognizes Moses as a prophet of old knows that Christ is their Savior.

Frontline's documentary, "The Mormons", recently aired on PBS and began with a statement that Joseph Smith is our "Alpha and Omega." I was shocked and dismayed by this assertion. Christ is our Alpha and Omega. We practice faith in Christ and know that he is the Redeemer of our sins. Joseph Smith and all subsequent prophets have the same roles as the prophets of the Bible. They are NOT a way to Heaven. They are teachers and revelators. They encourage us to come to know Christ and to recognize that He is who will save us.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And I am a Christian.

After killing law-abiding travelers for no known reason in history, and racism against Black American's, where is the law-abiding citizenry?

As an intellectual, scholar, woman, and convert to the LDS church I can assure you that I have not been persecuted. I am a Christian whether you choose to accept that or not is your own hangup. Attitudes that persist in American society about Mormons reveal the long standing problems many Protestant sects have towards tolerance of others. Perhaps we should have conversation about Martin Luther and his attitudes towards women or perhaps John Wesley and his abusive mother...people are imperfect and sometimes cruel and rude. They can be found in all religions. I have suffered the crass remarks of people calling themselves Christians whereby their actions betray their lack of commitment to the tenets of Christianity. My path to salvation has nothing to do with Joseph Smith and the LDS church does however frown upon its members belittling or lashing out at other religions. Perhaps we would all get along better if all religions adopted some of this advice. Ignorance is not a badge of honor.

In response to the anonymous posting. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints DO NOT worship Joseph Smith. He was a prophet, just as Noah, Moses, or any other prophet from the Bible. So yes we respect him, just as we respect any other prophet, but Smith is NOT the way, the truth or the light. One of the main questions in the interview to enter the temple is, "Do you believe in God the Eternal Father in His son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost?"

If a person actually sits down and reads the Book of Mormon, you will find Christ's name more than you will in the Bible. The entire book testifies of Christ and His greatness. I would like to challenge any person to put the words of Moroni (a prophet of the Book of Mormon) to the test. Read the Book of Mormon with an open heart. Reflect over the things you read and pray and ask God (not Joseph Smith) if the Book of Mormon is true. If you do those things with a real desire to know, the Holy Ghost will testify the truthfullness of it unto you. Don't expect an angel to come out of the sky, but you will feel a peace in your heart and know it's true. Over 12 million people have put it to the test and have found out for themselves. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Christ. Shouldn't we be excited to know there are more people who saw and walked with Christ? It just solidifies that Christ is!! What a great things to be excited for.

Anonymous... It seems you have dedicated alot of time to some incredible misinformation. Joseph Smith is not the Savior and has never been in the LDS faith. Jesus Christ is the only means to salvation. Yes we are Christians in EVERY sense of the word. Please research again the anthropological findings in North America, especially those in the early to mid 19th century that were not properly archived or were sold for profit. I have never, in my long LDS life have heard any Latter Day Saint demean or defile another's religion. We believe that we have the fullness of the gospel but we also respect without question another's right to believe as they may.

Mormons lawabiding? Probably, except when the law isn't looking.

Mormons mainstream? Probably just as uptight Pharisaical as evangelicals.

I would not invite them to my parties.

"I just wish they would stop calling themselves Christian. Just because they have "Jesus" in their name does not make them christian. "

And just because you say we aren't Christian doesn't mean we aren't. Who are you to decide? Who are you to judge me or my religion? God is my judge, thank you!

If a person believes they are following Christ, have accepted him as their Savior, and have faith in him, then they are a Christian. Putting a label on someone does not make them what they're labeled. Many so-called Chritians engange in the most unchristian acts - the KKK comes to mind. Hitler killed millions in the name of Christ. The proof of Christianity is in faith, word and deed. Not in a label.

If there was a universal definition for what it meant to be a Christian we wouldn't have hundreds of different churches arguing over what that really means.

"They believe the way to heaven is through Smith not Jesus."

NOT! This is nowhere in our doctrine. Are you sure your friends are LDS?

Neal

Anonymous:
Mormons do not believe heaven is achieved through Smith, but through Jesus Christ and the power of his Atonement. If you did a fraction of the study you put into negative research into looking at what the church, and the Book of Mormon actually teaches, you would know that. This CENTRAL belief is why mormons are christians.

We are guaranteed Freedom of Religion; not Freedom FROM Religion.

It’s not that I think Mormons are insincere. Mormons are one of the most sincere groups of people on the planet with some huge exception (Bishop Kyle Sampson). It’s the model of God-Human interaction that I reject. Mormons act as though the soul purpose for man’s existence is to live worthy of God’s love, or more importantly, avoid God’s wrath. Have you ever considered what the opportunity cost is for preoccupation with being cleansed from sin? Take tithing. Mormons believe that if they do not pay tithing, they are robbing God and that God will burn them at his coming. In return God builds fancy buildings labeled “Holiness to The Lord”, while the world starves and perishes from infectious disease.
So no. It doesn’t matter how positively FRONTLINE spins the ideology, being the product of unchallenged privilege; in fact, the top fifth percentile in the world, I won’t be back until morality ceases to be defined by what I do with my genitalia and is replaced by what I do with my resources. When spirituality is relieving human suffering, not forcing myself to feel sorrow for Christ’s suffering. When the independent variable becomes love, yeah that’s it, prove to me that I am loved and safe, then watch what my behavior becomes.

I just wish they would stop calling themselves Christian. Just because they have "Jesus" in their name does not make them christian.

I have mormon friends! So yes it is upsetting and yes we do talk about religion. If I did not care I would let them wallow in their dirt and let them go to hell but I do not want that to happen.

They believe the way to heaven is through Smith not Jesus. Get it together mormons!!!

You cannot find one place the book of mormon speaks of. What about the great battles that left 2 million dead (again that book of mormon) No relics? No bones? No History. The bible tells us where things occurred and you can still go there today. Nothing in the book of mormon can you visit. The map in the book of mormon does not even reflect any lands. So what do they do? They make their painting reflec Mayan culture. Yet nothing in the mayan culture ever indicates anything in the book of mormon.

Yes mormons deliver aid around the world. So do many other religions. The bible teaches us not to put out our givings for everyone to see. Mormons issue press releases stating what they have given. They will not tell you their net worth. They own a lot of big business in Utah and I heard they just bought a mall.

In the end yes we all should be able to accept one another even though they call all other religions an abomination.

I am not a Mormon. I live in Idaho, where a high percentage of the population is Mormon. I am treated with a lot of respect and hang out with Mormons regularly. They don't try to convert me and are the best group of people I have ever met. I think that people who try to bring down someone else's religion are the ones who have problems. Why can't people let Mormons do their thing without trying to say to say negative things about them. The Mormons deliver international aid around the world. They are leaders in welfare around the world. You may not agree with their beliefs but you have to respect what they are trying to accomplish!

For all the nay-sayers of the world - remember...The "Mormon" members you meet and come across are only a reflection of the actual religion. The beliefs and truths of every individual, whether Latter Day Saint or any other religion, is what defines a persons' individual spirituality. You can personally have a relationship with God and not be a Mormon. The religion was based on faith, continues to grow on faith and will continue to grow. We believe in being honest, true, chaste,...and doing good...There is nothing in this religion that would support something evil or bad, yet some of the members display those traits. It's all about personal responsibility and sadly to say, those two words, together, don't mean anything, anymore. Don't cast your lot or judge the Mormon people just because of things you've heard or a few bad examples you know. Read the Book.(Book of Mormon) It will tell you the history and basis of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - Discover for yourself. Leave the second hand information to the politicians. (And yes, I am proud to be a member)

Correction in the last sentence:

If America considers mainstream christian religion a standard for godliness, then America is way wrong.
The only standard for godliness is Christ.

People of all religions are 'Peaceful, Industrious and Law-Abiding People'. Take a look around the world, and all religions have an answer for their prosperity and high moral standards. If people follow closely the guidelines of their religion, they all are very good people.
This political debate on religion is very confusing. If religion is a personal matter, why should it be so important in politics? On the other hand Americans claim freedom of speech and religion. If that is so, then where is the freedom of religion in politics?
I guess there is none!
People want to choose a leader who is a politician and a perfect religious person. Now,
there is a big a misunderstanding: a religious person is not a godly person, and neither is a politician (most of the time).
If America considers mainstream a standard for godliness, then America is way wrong!!!

As a Mormon, I have to admit that Maurie Beck has got it right. Mormons had to suffer a lot, in part, because we induced a lot of suffering everywhere we went.

Things have improved mostly because Mormon authorities have to answer to secular authorities. However, there is little evidence of voluntary respect for the rights of dissenters or minorities. The current referendum campaigns against gays are only the tip of the iceberg.

Jesus taught that those who sow the wind shall inherit the storm. Mormon leaders would do well to remember that before they complain about bias and lack of respect.

If you want to enjoy respect then you have an obligation to respect the rights of others. Sadly there is a systematic pattern of disrespect for the rights of dissenters in Mormonism and non-Mormons in majority Mormon neighborhoods and American politics at large.

Take Mitt Romney's insistence that he is well qualified to be president for he believes in God. Romney does not waste a second thought that if he demands inclusion on that count then he excludes American Hindus, Buddhists and atheists. It is a hypocritical position.

More importantly, Mormonism is the only religious organization that aspires to join the mainstream, which excommunicates academics and scholars for their research. And you can get excommunicated simply for arguing that women ought to enjoy equal rights in Mormonism and America.

Mormons do deserve tolerance. Hence they also have an obligation to be tolerant themselves. There is a long way to go.

Until our conduct reflects our demands, we need not be surprised when the people who we hurt in the name of our faith will defend themselves.

John D the First,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Although we were secular jews, when I was a kid, we always went to Salt Lake City for Christmas to visit our friends who were Mormon. They were wonderful folks and I can still remember the excitement when we drove to Utah from Los Angeles, for the winter holidays. Great warm memories.

Don't feel too bad for my friend's daughter (who is now grown and getting a graduate degree at the University of Michigan). She's a happy, well adjusted atheist, like myself.

I especially like what you wrote at the end of your post, "If our history teaches us nothing else, it should teach us to respect the rights of all people to peacefully coexist with one another."

If I was religious, I'd say "Amen".

Maurie Beck,

That story of the ten year old is heart breaking! I feel so bad for her and that family. There is nothing worst than rejection as a child.

This is one of the major problems in the Utah church. I wish so much this didn't happen to people there! I am proud of my faith on so many levels but stories like this are hard to read.

I think Mormon Leadership has tried to address this question. Elder Ballard gave a talk in the world wide church conference regarding this.

Some things he said:

"Occasionally I hear of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority. I have heard about narrow-minded parents who tell children that they cannot play with a particular child in the neighborhood simply because his or her family does not belong to our Church. This kind of behavior is not in keeping with the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot comprehend why any member of our Church would allow these kinds of things to happen."

"We must understand, however, that not everyone is going to accept our doctrine of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. For the most part, our neighbors not of our faith are good, honorable people—every bit as good and honorable as we strive to be. They care about their families, just like we do. They want to make the world a better place, just like we do. They are kind and loving and generous and faithful, just like we seek to be."

Here are some suggestion he gave:

"First, get to know your neighbors. Learn about their families, their work, their views. Get together with them, if they are willing, and do so without being pushy and without any ulterior motives. Friendship should never be offered as a means to an end; it can and should be an end unto itself. I received a letter from a woman who recently moved to Utah, a small part of which I quote: “I must tell you, Elder Ballard, that when I greet my neighbors, or if I wave to them, they do not acknowledge my greeting. If I pass them while taking my morning or evening walk, my salutation is not returned. Other people of color consistently express similar negative responses to friendly gestures.” If members of the Church are among her neighbors, surely they must know that this should not happen. Let us cultivate meaningful relationships of mutual trust and understanding with people from different backgrounds and beliefs.

Second, I believe it would be good if we eliminated a couple of phrases from our vocabulary: “nonmember” and “non-Mormon.” Such phrases can be demeaning and even belittling. Personally, I don’t consider myself to be a “non-Catholic” or a “non-Jew.” I am a Christian. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That is how I prefer to be identified—for who and what I am, as opposed to being identified for what I am not. Let us extend that same courtesy to those who live among us. If a collective description is needed, then “neighbors” seems to work well in most cases.

And third, if neighbors become testy or frustrated because of some disagreement with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or with some law we support for moral reasons, please don’t suggest to them—even in a humorous way—that they consider moving someplace else. I cannot comprehend how any member of our Church can even think such a thing! Our pioneer ancestors were driven from place to place by uninformed and intolerant neighbors. They experienced extraordinary hardship and persecution because they thought, acted, and believed differently from others. If our history teaches us nothing else, it should teach us to respect the rights of all people to peacefully coexist with one another."

I hope more Utah Mormons follow this counsel.

I just saw the PBS special on the history and belief of Mormonism. It was illuminating. They were persecuted, but it wasn't a one way street. They seemed to have engendered suspicion wherever they settled, and it wasn't just because they were practicing a different religion. In fact, when they settled in Illinois, they were actually welcomed by many people who were appalled at how they had been treated in Missouri. However, that changed, for some of the same reasons as the problems in Missouri, including a fear of a Mormon theocracy. Eventually there was a massacre in Illinois in which Joseph Smith was killed. Brigham Young took control of the primary group and moved the bunch to Utah. Other divergent groups of Mormons stayed in Missouri, Illinois, and elsewhere. However, this was not the end of problems. The federal government was concerned that Utah territory was becoming a theocracy. Tensions were high. They got higher when a wagon train of 130+ people was massacred in Mountain Meadow.

Although Mormonism today is no longer so tumultuous, I think it still exhibits many of its old tendencies. I have friends who live in Utah and there is a great divide between Mormons and non-Mormons. One friend was in Logan Utah doing doctoral research. He and his wife had a daughter and when she was about 10, she started getting invitations to go to church. She wanted to go, because all her friends went and told her how much fun it was. Her parents were a little concerned, but let her go. Church members and their children then started a full-court press towards conversion. In the end it didn't work. When that was apparent to the church members, all her little friends for life disappeared.

It will be interesting to see how Mormon culture deals with the influx of non-Mormons into Utah. Already, Salt Lake City has more non-Mormons than Mormons and there is a Democratic Mayor.

Taken as an American whole, Mormons are just another piece in the religion puzzle in the U.S. But in Utah, it is only just becoming that way. With over 75% of the state's population being members of the LDS religion, the "marvelously varied religious life" you wrote of is not a reality in Utah.
I am not LDS, but I have ancestors who were among the first Mormon pioneers to arrive in Utah, and many members of my family are LDS. Among the Mormons the memories of persecution in the 19th Century still run deep. The Mormons in Utah are still a bit sensitive to anything that could pose as a threat to their culture and religion. Because of this, non-Mormons in Utah sometimes feel like Mormon culture is being imposed on them. Its not any Vast Mormon Conspiracy as some people here believe, but a natural extension of "the majority rules". While the Utah and US constitutions both provide us with a separation of church and state, the reality is that if the majority of people are Mormon, the laws and social rules are going to reflect that majority. If the LDS church takes a stand on an issue, you can be assured the Utah Legislature will follow along.
Which brings us to Mitt Romney. I'm not afraid what he would do as President, I don't think the LDS church would control his actions, but as a member of the Mormon religion, his religious beliefs would have an influence on his thinking. Just like JFK's beliefs and the Catholic church did with his presidency.