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Clearly, none of you know Professor Chester Gillis. He is a wise and decent man who aspires to bring people together. Do not misinterpret his passion as rage, it is only the righteous anger of a visionary whose only fault is to believe in all of us a little too much. Clowns.

Get 'em Chet!

In the name of God- war is bad-
but in the name of overactive patriotic zeal, its good?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did you cut down swathes of foes in honorable battle in the name of Great Mercy? (or patriotism)

Or did you ignore the screams of wimen and children with your razor-knife when you made a pulp of your body, and theirs.

Would you like a reward, now, martyr? (patriot?)

Live in your glory.

From the baby seat point of view, maybe.

Or the mothers'....

Still feeling all virtuous?

Way we Pagans see it is, well, being dead kinda liberates you of any mental confusions you might have entertained about what it means to do big murder.

Even if you were *sure* it was the right thing to do.

Funny how life is.

It's almost like... War was bad or something.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Still felling all virtuous Mr. Paganplace?

Paganplace:
Christians are constantly screaming at Pagans here that we're 'not supporting our troops' cause we generally say this war is a *bad idea.*

You want "Support Our Troops."

Let us support *our* troops.

Stop trying to 'prove' they 'don't exist in sufficient numbers to be humans or Americans.'

These are *our* troops.

This war is stupid, but give me a plane ticket, a flak vest, and a big bottle of Advil, and I'll go. It'd croak me, but I'd go.

If no one else will.

Get it?

July 12, 2007 12:07 AM |

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/kathleen_flake/2007/07/skim_milk.html

Is this the same Paganplace who said he would put on a uniform and join the american soldiers in Iraq if he could?

This conundrum CAN be resolved... quickly... easily... economically... once and for all.

My simple solution requres only that for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote its front page to cartoons ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, all of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy. WARNING: This will not be pretty... but the world will be a much better place for it.

My only regret in this is that I cannot think of a similarly uncomplicated, cost-effective and efficient stratagem to dismantle Christianity... but, oh well... one thing at a time. One only does what one can.

The Eleventh Commandment, Psalm 51 and John 3:16 will see me through this. I offer OBL the opportunity to confess his sins, repent of his sin against God and humanity, and accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior. I will not kill him if he refuses. I will pray for him.

The Eleventh Commandment, Psalm 51 and John 3:16 will see me through this. I offer OBL the opportunity to confess his sins, repent of his sin against God and humanity, and accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior. I will not kill him if he refuses. I will pray for him.

"You are Criminals, Not Martyrs
Those of you who take innocent lives in the name of religion neither do justice nor represent a merciful God. Your words and actions misrepresent and dishonor your religion. If you intend to do violence, do not wrap it in the cloak of religion. You only betray that which you say motivates you. God does not bless your actions; God despises them. Your rhetoric, hatred, and destruction do not serve your religion; they make people fear it. You may gain infamy, but you do not gain God’s favor. You are not martyrs; you are criminals. You are Criminals, Not Martyrs
Those of you who take innocent lives in the name of religion neither do justice nor represent a merciful God. Your words and actions misrepresent and dishonor your religion. If you intend to do violence, do not wrap it in the cloak of religion. You only betray that which you say motivates you. God does not bless your actions; God despises them. Your rhetoric, hatred, and destruction do not serve your religion; they make people fear it. You may gain infamy, but you do not gain God’s favor. You are not martyrs; you are criminals. Cease your terrorist activity..."

What pomposity! And one wonder why man attacks man when such ego is released. The morality of conservatism and their politics often sinks to rhetoric such as this - drive, drive, drive the message but refuse to sink to the details. You know, the details that are often in very small print, wordiness and all. Yet it is in details that the truth is revealed.

So what are the details, or is this all rant and rave? Where are the comments of truth to resolve this world wide mess? Explain the critical method or path to enlighten to end this morass of vitrolic hate. Cease this dissolution into constant arguments and officious commands.

Here is an essay that captured my eye.

Talking to Petrarch: The World is an Envious Place

"Will no hiding-place ever protect us from jealousy, will no length of time extinguish envy?" Upon Man’s Own Ignorance, Petrarch

A letter to my good friend, Francesco Petrarch,

My friend, I was 45 years old when I noted the insidious wave of inadequacy that began to overwhelm the world. Today, on this sunny autumn day I ponder the subject once again and reach for an old frayed text that you and many other like minded men and women contributed.

The simple bounty of this sphere of earth since the 20th and 21st century has had no meaning for many; or they simply refuse the life of generosity that God and mankind has provided. What do we; mothers and fathers, grandparents and children offer to one another; what legacy to our children’s children, do we base our ideals upon? Naturally, I was puzzled and sought understanding:

“From my grandfather Verus I learned good morals and the government of my temper. From the reputation and remembrance of my father, modesty and a manly character. From my mother, piety and beneficence, and abstinence, not only from evil deeds, but even from evil thoughts; and further, simplicity in my way of living, far removed from the habits of the rich. From my great-grandfather…to have had good teachers…and to know that on such things a man should spend liberally”. Meditation, Marcus Aurelius

As in your time, men and women of today want more, but they will not look to the engines of the future to attain more. They avoid the ideal and often strenuous road of wisdom for the hypocritical road of stealth. I sense man will scheme to better himself or herself, rather than work for it openly and honestly. There is a hollow cavern of difference between the two. Once you wrote, “The state, to which I owe so much, gives me a discharge from my obligations; envy, to which I owe nothing, disturbs me…Much 1 have had to experienced before; this kind of evil I have never yet experienced”.

Only now do I comprehend your words. Have we all been led astray by some leaders, who call themselves friends, when in actuality, they are simply masking their avarice? By such deceit, the social contract between man and leadership has been put to the flame of hypocrisy, and democracy withers in illness. I am often amazed how bright those bonfires burn while people look upon in puzzlement and leaders rasp their hands in smoky amusement.

Let us play catch up, my dear Francesco. During the dawn of the twentieth century, the age of industry, where men and women toiled daily to put the simple things of life upon their plate; warm bread, clean clothes, a house, a car, safe roads, electricity, a friendly profitable market place, a school, vital church, synagogue, mosque, or temple, populated by good neighbors and friends; all these noble goals began to wither, and its people cast aside like a yard untended.. I remember when the age of industry developed leaders that blended and monitored activity, and when threatened, all came together as a team, yet today, greed is viewed as motivation, and envy is its mother. Not today my friend.

"[The CEO] made over $10 million last year, I made $34,000," is the way one of those average workers put it. "That tells me how he values himself and how he values me. If we all bust our butts like he's asking, next year I may make as much as $34,900. And he'll make $20 million. How can we be on the same team when we're not even in the same league?" Barry Maher

I remember the 1950s, when lesser nations demanded equity with greater nations and thus India parted ways with Great Britain, and Egypt warred with Israel. who simply re-introduced Yahweh to Allah and the gods were happy. I recall how the minority of the world began their first toddling step toward equity. I remember when greater nations put puppet kings into lesser nations, and paid the price for their foolishness. They still do, so one can ask, do they fear change so much?

In the 1980s, I am reminded of the glitz of new found wealth, toting re-birthed ideologies that were seeded with polite pretensions of re-creating a register of the rich and powerful against a dying New York social register. Civility competed with personal liberty, and rugged individualism competed with social appropriateness. Freedoms were gifts handed out by the masters at the top of the game, because the people at the bottom of the game were rioting in the streets. In the 1960s, the road to equity was perceived by those who value the ideal. In return, the advent of the “me” generation took root. In the 90s came the Web and the exchange of information, and I wonder, has it soothed a trouble world when few look for consensus, and more view it as minor stage of notoriety. I imagine the Borgias would delight in the web.

Is greed truly a motivation? Many years ago, the ME generation, I predicted, would lead to war between neighbor and community and they have fulfilled all my expectations. Today social communities exist no more. They have been torn asunder and dis- mantled under a dark cloak of ideology, an ideology of envy of Me that refutes Us. Ah, Francesco, you know where I am leading.

The search for ideals and wisdom is being crushed by the acquisition of power and wealth. What sparks this dedication to empowerment over others? As multinationals wander from one country or another, looking for the poor to fill their sweat shops and man their counters; at the top, be it England, the United States, Russia, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Egypt, or China, men and women of 21st century wealth argue the wages of humanity and minimize it into terms of coin, hours, and productivity. They have no vision beyond the annual report. Like the British two hundred years ago, who drove countries into poverty and discord, fed them opiates of the body and the mind, and endeavored to remove their native names, their families, and their culture from the national conscience, the quest was to deliver to the stockholders and owners an overwhelming bank account in order that those who profited could provide great shows of wealth and state protection. Why, and for what reason do people build billion dollar homes, and wallow in orgies that are called are public relations events? What is the synopsis of wealth, but a chain of events that endeavors to cancel out our ideals, and to impoverish our souls?

“If we are to achieve a richer culture, rich in contrasting values, we must recognize the whole gamut of human potentialities, and so weave a less arbitrary social fabric, one in which each diverse human gift will find a fitting place”. Margaret Meade

Why? Because men of inordinate deviation who mine the culture as well as the earth know they do evil, and think that their wealth will prevent the gnawing of their conscience and their fear of reprisal. Indeed, in the beginning of the 21st century, these men and women fear the people, thus they send warriors to conquer the people – similar in your time to the Sforzas. They shout at each other, pantomiming the great apes, demanding from their own to continue sharpening their knives in order to strop tiny bits of flesh from each human soul they come into contact. Thus the arrogance of the bully winnows down to all of us. Was it the same for you?

When I write or I speak, when I introduce an ideal, I am accosted and stoned with one sentence…“What about me?” or “What about mine?”. This question has torn families apart, friends apart, and even nations apart. Therefore, the creed stands out like a shrine to the God of Self, and thus the answers: Motivation is greed. Ambition is success. Be it politician, minister, teacher, or manager, the ideals of mankind, what once we termed faith or the spirit of man, are minimized under a thick veneer of envy.
“I am at war neither with friends nor with enemies but with envy. It is not a new enemy, though its manner of fighting is new. With bow and quiver it comes to the battle-field; it attacks with arrows and strikes from afar. There is one advantage: it is blind. You can easily evade it if you see it in time. It shoots without aim and often wounds its own ranks”. Upon Man’s Own Ignorance, Petrarch,
Thus America is wounded, England too, Iraq, Iran and Israel, but that is just the beginning of the list, for the people in the world fight each other upon all continents led by a gleeful industry of self seekers and maintainers. We are a people divided and hostile to one another, a pottage of bitter ideologies easily manipulated by those who seek personal gain. We have abandoned the ideal for the grubby stall in the market place, for the indifferent customer service in India, for the incense of sacrifice within our churches; we avoid the ideals of humanity, and cater to the ignorance of wealth. We struggle to forget that we are all inadequate in the hope that we find superiority, the coins thrown upon the ice, and a moment of glitz. We drug our children, and we war upon families, and we set up acolytes from a priesthood of marketing personnel to direct our souls.
Why do people wish for no ideals? And more to the point, why do men and women of wealth wish to silence those prayers to the ideal? There is a war against intelligence, a friend described to me one day. Who is the enemy, I inquired? Money, was the response. The thought had tremendous merit. You can’t make respect, you must earn it. However, in the 21st century, men disdain respect for they don’t need it – they think they can buy it, or spin it. So I write, articulate, and I am spurned by those who think they know better.

“They cannot even envy me learning and eloquence! Learning, they declare, I have absolutely none. Eloquence, if I have any, they despise according to the modern philosophic fashion. They reject it as unworthy of a man of letters. Thus only "infantile inability to speak" and perplexed stammering, "wisdom" trying hard to keep one eye open and "yawning drowsily," as Cicero calls it, is held in good repute nowadays. They do not call to mind "Plato, the most eloquent of all men," and--let me omit the others--"Aristotle sweet and mild," but whom they made trite”. Upon Man’s Own Ignorance, Petrarch,

Brilliant words, dear Francesco. I live simply, with no pretensions to symbols of wealth, or do I beheld wealth, as I live to benefit those that live with me or around me. I scour my home upon my knees then sweep up the remnants of other people’s litter from the altar of God – it is good to remind one of humble beginnings, and unassuming actions. My home I have made all over the world, and it changes neither in its plainness nor in its effort to heal. I offer dinner to a grieved one, a soft word to those who suffer in times of stress; I struggle to be a friend in a friendless world. I have courage, and am often mocked for my principals. I offer honesty, and am rebuffed by lies. I am considered wise because of my late years, and I do not opinion unless I am asked. Then what do people envy? I struggle and read, and find answers within the words of those that went before me, and thus I find myself here, reading you, my dear friend Petrarch, on a sunny, autumn morning.
Not even virtue or humility can they envy me, though it is beyond doubt the best and most enviable of all things. To those who demand power it seems worthless--I believe because virtue is not inflated and puffed up with arrogance., and humility has no stage. I should wish to possess both, and, indeed, they grant it to me unanimously and willingly. Small things they have denied me, and this very greatest possession they lavish upon me as a small gift. They call me a good woman, even the best of women, but they claim that I am altogether illiterate, that I am a plain uneducated fellow. I remember they did the same to you, did they not Francesco?

Indeed, I can understand those words because I have lived it. In all my papers, in all my words, I see one bright gleam, the soul of myself. I write that it is good to benefit self as long as what I am doing benefits society as well, and the two are mutual not exclusive of each other. It is the creed of my roots, the call of the prairie that guides my heart and mind. It is a simple rule, a rule established from Hammurabi to Abraham, from Plato to Marcus Aurelius, from Jesus to Muhammad, from Augustine to Petrarch, from More to Montaigne, and from Bashevis to Soyinka. What do people envy? They envy the peace of mind, the humbling of the spirit, the bathing within ideals, the principal of courage, the ability to be distinct and at one without pretensions, the valor of the human spirit, the vision of the future. As you, my dear Francesco, penned centuries ago:

“I desired to be both good and learned”

Mankind desires to be both good and learned. It is the ideal of all faith. It is what is envied by those who repudiate it. Wealth and power would hide goodness and wisdom like they hide fine art and jewels, they know it is valuable, but they don’t understand the spirit of the poets and learned ideals. Those that envy want their names to be remembered down the centuries. It is an empty dream, sadly, as you once wrote, one that they will never capture.

"Where is the anthrax mailer who mailed fake "Allah" letters with genuine military grade anthrax to Senator Patrick Leagy? Why has the Bureau of Incompetence FBI not caught that evil criminal yank?"

Actually, didn't they *bust* that guy and find out he was an opportunistic Christian conspiracty theorist?

Where is the anthrax mailer who mailed fake "Allah" letters with genuine military grade anthrax to Senator Patrick Leagy? Why has the Bureau of Incompetence FBI not caught that evil criminal yank?

The following is an excerpt from MIN HAMETZAR (p. 92)
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

The excerpt is a literal translation of the letter the Jewish Rescue Committee in Czechoslovakia received from the Zionist "Jewish" Agency Executive Offices in Switzerland.

This was in reply to the call of the Jewish Rescue Committee for help, with documentary evidence furnished, concerning the fate of millions of Jewish people in Nazi occupied Europe.

"We are writing to remind you of the one factor of which you must never lose sight: that ultimately, the Allies will win the war. After their victory, territorial boundaries will be reshaped as they were after the First World War. Then, the way will be clear for our purpose at this time, with the war drawing to a close, we must do everything in our power to change Eretz Yisroel to Medinat Yisrael and many steps have already been taken in this regard. Therefore, we must turn a deaf ear to the pleas and cries emanating from Eastern Europe. Remember this: all the allies have suffered many losses, and if we also do not offer human sacrifices, how can we gain the right to sit at the conference table when the territorial boundaries are reshaped? Accordingly, it is foolhardy and brazen for us to negotiate in terms of money or supplies in exchange for Jewish lives. How dare we ask of the allied powers to barter money for lives while they are sustaining heavy casualties daily? So, insofar as the masses are concerned: RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ, (Eretz Yisroel will be ours only by paying with blood), but as far as our immediate circle is concerned, ATEM TAJLU. The messenger bearing this letter will supply you with funds for this purpose".

After I accustomed myself to the peculiar writing, I trembled when I realized the import of RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ. But many weeks passed, and I was still confounded by the meaning of ATEM TAJLU. Until one day, it struck me. ATEM TAJLU meant "You escape", for the word "tiyul" (walking trip) was used by them as a euphemistic code for "escape". They meant to say - you fifteen or twenty "party members", escape from Czechoslovakia and save your hides. The price of Eretz Yisroel is the blood of the men and women, hoary sages, and babes in arms - but not YOUR blood! Let us not spoil this plan by giving the Axis powers to save Jewish lives. But for you, comrades, I have enclosed carfare for your escape. What a nightmare! The Zionist agent "diplomat" comes to Czechoslovakia and says 'Now is a very critical time. But comparatively speaking it is not at all critical for you trapped Jews. For there is an emergency of far greater proportions; namely, BINYAN HA-ARETZ (the prize of Medinat Yisrael). Shed your blood cheerfully, for your blood is cheap. But for your blood, the Land (of Israel) will be ours!

Read R. Weissmandl's Ten Questions to the Zionists

The following is an excerpt from MIN HAMETZAR (p. 92)
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

The excerpt is a literal translation of the letter the Jewish Rescue Committee in Czechoslovakia received from the Zionist "Jewish" Agency Executive Offices in Switzerland.

This was in reply to the call of the Jewish Rescue Committee for help, with documentary evidence furnished, concerning the fate of millions of Jewish people in Nazi occupied Europe.

"We are writing to remind you of the one factor of which you must never lose sight: that ultimately, the Allies will win the war. After their victory, territorial boundaries will be reshaped as they were after the First World War. Then, the way will be clear for our purpose at this time, with the war drawing to a close, we must do everything in our power to change Eretz Yisroel to Medinat Yisrael and many steps have already been taken in this regard. Therefore, we must turn a deaf ear to the pleas and cries emanating from Eastern Europe. Remember this: all the allies have suffered many losses, and if we also do not offer human sacrifices, how can we gain the right to sit at the conference table when the territorial boundaries are reshaped? Accordingly, it is foolhardy and brazen for us to negotiate in terms of money or supplies in exchange for Jewish lives. How dare we ask of the allied powers to barter money for lives while they are sustaining heavy casualties daily? So, insofar as the masses are concerned: RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ, (Eretz Yisroel will be ours only by paying with blood), but as far as our immediate circle is concerned, ATEM TAJLU. The messenger bearing this letter will supply you with funds for this purpose".

After I accustomed myself to the peculiar writing, I trembled when I realized the import of RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ. But many weeks passed, and I was still confounded by the meaning of ATEM TAJLU. Until one day, it struck me. ATEM TAJLU meant "You escape", for the word "tiyul" (walking trip) was used by them as a euphemistic code for "escape". They meant to say - you fifteen or twenty "party members", escape from Czechoslovakia and save your hides. The price of Eretz Yisroel is the blood of the men and women, hoary sages, and babes in arms - but not YOUR blood! Let us not spoil this plan by giving the Axis powers to save Jewish lives. But for you, comrades, I have enclosed carfare for your escape. What a nightmare! The Zionist agent "diplomat" comes to Czechoslovakia and says 'Now is a very critical time. But comparatively speaking it is not at all critical for you trapped Jews. For there is an emergency of far greater proportions; namely, BINYAN HA-ARETZ (the prize of Medinat Yisrael). Shed your blood cheerfully, for your blood is cheap. But for your blood, the Land (of Israel) will be ours!

Read R. Weissmandl's Ten Questions to the Zionists

Amen.
I would add this line:
The end doesn't justify the means.

The lord rewards a helping hand,a builder; not a destroyer.
By group; the muslims are the poorest people in the world; plagued with famine and internal wars;make yourself useful by commiting your life to help your own people.
The same goes to all faith based extremists; there's much need in the world, in your own backyard. be a blessing; not a curse.

I think rather than saying, 'You aren't martyrs,' I might ask them:

"Hey, Martyr.

Did you get the bad guys real good?

Did you smite the foe to be sung of worthy of legend?

Did you cut down swathes of foes in honorable battle in the name of Great Mercy?

Or did you ignore the screams of wimen and children with your razor-knife when you made a pulp of your body, and theirs.

Would you like a reward, now, martyr?

Live in your glory.

From the baby seat point of view, maybe.

Or the mothers'....

Still feeling all virtuous?

Way we Pagans see it is, well, being dead kinda liberates you of any mental confusions you might have entertained about what it means to do big murder.

Even if you were *sure* it was the right thing to do.

Funny how life is.

It's almost like... War was bad or something.

"Those of you who take innocent lives in the name of religion neither do justice nor represent a merciful God. Your words and actions misrepresent and dishonor your religion. If you intend to do violence, do not wrap it in the cloak of religion. You only betray that which you say motivates you. God does not bless your actions; God despises them. Your rhetoric, hatred, and destruction do not serve your religion; they make people fear it. You may gain infamy, but you do not gain God’s favor. You are not martyrs; you are criminals."

Amen! Amen! Amen!

I appreciate that someone finally found a balanced message to Mr Bush. I hope that Mr Bush listens to you though. He needs to ban evanglists from showing up at the white house to tell him that he has special powers and that he can talk to God.

Oh oh! I realized that this and other boards are only targeting muslims and no one else! I should only think of muslims when evil is assumed! My oh my!

Isn't it amazing where people' thoughts end up? There is always another side of the story. Both the accused and the accuser are guilty your honor!

I'd ask.. How far are you willing to take that idea, Mr. Gillis?

Are gay people still to be terrorized in their real lives for your abstract idea of 'sanctity?'

Should we, say, vote for people who are pro-torture and death penalty cause the alternative is people who think gay Americans are Americans?

You claim to speak for God in absolutes, let's hear about what you do in politics.

I don't support terrorism in any form whether it is perpetrated by individuals, NGO organizations like Al-Queda or with full governmental blessings as in the Iraq war. Imagine being a child and watching a US jet plane fly immediately overhead. Our military owns the most terrorizing machines imaginable including about fully nuclear decked B-52 and Polaris submarines. We don’t find these terrorizing because they are ours. Turn the gun around to look down the muzzle before replying.

Echoing TWIL's comment:

The Abrahamic God, Yahweh [a.k.a. "The Ignorant Demiurge" by the Cathars], worshipped by the terrorists, is also the Hebrew and Christian God.

The terrorists are acting in the same way that Yahweh advised the Israelites to act toward their neighbors.

So God may in fact not be condemnatory of the terrorists' actions - if you take scripture seriously.

"You only betray that which you say motivates you. God does not bless your actions; God despises them."

No knock on what you say in your opinion about motivations, but then...have you ever spoken to their god(s)? [Smile]